Spell slots for level 17-20

[Borror0]

I'm just making sure that they still follow the same logic.

If it does, it should look like:

Bard:

Level 17: 5/5/4/4/4/3
Level 18: 5/5/5/4/4/3
Level 19: 5/5/5/5/4/4
Level 20: 5/5/5/5/5/4

Cleric:

Level 17: 5/5/5/5/5/5/4/3/2
Level 18: 5/5/5/5/5/5/4/4/3
Level 19: 5/5/5/5/5/5/5/4/4
Level 20: 5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5

Favored Soul:

Level 17: 4/4/4/4/4/3/3/2/-
Level 18: 4/4/4/4/4/3/3/2/1
Level 19: 4/4/4/4/4/3/3/2/2
Level 20: 4/4/4/4/4/3/3/3/3

Paladin:

Level 17: 3/3/3/2
Level 18: 4/3/3/2
Level 19: 4/4/4/3
Level 20: 4/4/4/4

Ranger:

Level 17: 3/3/3/2
Level 18: 4/3/3/2
Level 19: 4/4/4/3
Level 20: 4/4/4/4

Sorcerer:

Level 17: 4/4/4/4/4/3/3/2/-
Level 18: 4/4/4/4/4/3/3/2/1
Level 19: 4/4/4/4/4/3/3/2/2
Level 20: 4/4/4/4/4/3/3/3/3

Wizard:

Level 17: 5/5/5/5/5/5/4/3/2
Level 18: 5/5/5/5/5/5/4/4/3
Level 19: 5/5/5/5/5/5/5/4/4
Level 20: 5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5


I would love to have confirmation all of these are correct, or know if there are deviations so that I can update the wiki properly.

Thanks.

PS: I don't get why the wizard have +1 to their spells per day vs PnP. I know that clerics have it to emulate their domain but why do wizards also get +1 to their spell slots? Oh, and why do the clerics cap at 5 spells per day when they are supposed to have 6 - especially since wizards get +1 spell slot for no reason?

PPS: By the way, Eladrin, if you read this: are you going to fix the SP bug for rangers and paladins one day? :p They are supposed to get +5 SP at level 4, not 2. It's been around for two years now, don't you think it's time to fix it? ;)

[Vormaerin]

Isn't the +1 spell slot for wizards supposed to be replacing the specialist option or something? Sorry, I can't help with the real question..don't have a suitable character for that.

[Borror0]

Isn't the +1 spell slot for wizards supposed to be replacing the specialist option or something?
Maybe, but it does not have the drawbacks (ie can't use two other schools).

It makes sense for the domains, since it's a bonus to spells and is a bonus of the class but it does not make much sense to give +1 spell per day for the wizard specialization since that option comes with a fairly big drawback. But, that's the best explanation there is... I guess.

[Vormaerin]

Well, the wizard does have the fairly big drawback that its huge advantage in spell selection compared to a sorceror is rather neutered by the nature of MMO gaming.

[Borror0]

Well, the wizard does have the fairly big drawback that its huge advantage in spell selection compared to a sorceror is rather neutered by the nature of MMO gaming.
True, but it's still an odd choice. Back at launch, sorcerers were gimped wizards. They ever had to give them faster casting speed to make up for some of the imbalance which would have been too great otherwise. Why they still chose to give wizards more spells is odd to me.

[SteeleTrueheart]

As I noted in during beta Paladins do not get an extra level 3 spell slot at 17.

Still 3/3/2/2

[Borror0]

As I noted in during beta Paladins do not get an extra level 3 spell slot at 17.

Still 3/3/2/2
I remember reading 'bout that but could not find the details. Thanks.

By the way, did you bug report it?

[Extispex]

PS: I don't get why the wizard have +1 to their spells per day vs PnP. I know that clerics have it to emulate their domain but why do wizards also get +1 to their spell slots? Oh, and why do the clerics cap at 5 spells per day when they are supposed to have 6 - especially since wizards get +1 spell slot for no reason?


I think those extra spell slots are to emulate the cure-spells that can be spontaneously cast.
We're still missing out on domain spells, as well as bonus spells for high ability scores.

[Galbbatorix]

I can confirm that the level 20 spell slots are correct for sorc, and 17,18,19 I'm 99% sure are correct as well.

[SteeleTrueheart]

Paladin 18:
4/3/2/2

Will bug report the third level mistake next time I am on as well as via forums now

[SimVerg]

Sorcs get their 3rd 8th lvl spell at 19, not 20.

[Angelus_dead]

True, but it's still an odd choice. Back at launch, sorcerers were gimped wizards.
That was because of unchangable spells known, not casting speed.


Why they still chose to give wizards more spells is odd to me.
It's because that due to the limitations of an online video game, not all the kinds of spell effects that exist in D&D could function in DDO. Therefore having a smaller list of spells known wasn't as big of a drawback for Sorcerers as it should be.

[Aspenor]

The extra cleric slot, as stated above, is to emulate the spontaneous castability of cure spells. The extra slot for a wizard is to emulate the versatility of the wizard over the sorcerer, IMO.

[Borror0]

That was because of unchangable spells known, not casting speed.
I know but they gave sorcerers a better casting speed to make up for that.

[Aspenor]

I know but they gave sorcerers a better casting speed to make up for that.

No, they gave sorcerers better casting time as a way of emulating "spontaneous spellcasting," which is an advantage the PnP sorcerer has over the PnP wizard. It's one reason the Shadowcraft Mage wizard build is so powerful. It enjoys pure spontaneity of spellcasting at all levels by being able to mimick any evocation or conjuration of any level, at any time, while at the same time being able to have utility spells memorized.

[Borror0]

they gave sorcerers better casting time as a way of emulating "spontaneous spellcasting,"
If it's to mimic spontaneous spellcasting, why do:

cleric not have shorter cooldowns on healing spells?
bards not also have shorter cooldowns?

[sephiroth1084]

Do we have to gain 2 additional 8th level slots on our wizards? I don't want 'em!

[Aspenor]

If it's to mimic spontaneous spellcasting, why do:

cleric not have shorter cooldowns on healing spells?
bards not also have shorter cooldowns?


The mechanic was intended to balance across the two arcane full spellcasting classes, not divine and "half casters." Both clerics and bards have advantages the arcane caster does not (more hit points, higher BAB, better save progression, songs, etc.).

It holds true to the PnP balance mechanic that for most class benefits, there needs to be a proportionate advantage on other classes. Generally speaking, sorcerers cast spells. Clerics do much more. They cast spells, they can melee, and they can, most importantly, HEAL. Bards cast spells, sing songs that give huge benefits, can fight, have more skill points to allocate, and above all, they can HEAL. Druids can fight, have more hit points, can wildshape, and above all, they can HEAL.

Do not underestimate the ability to heal oneself in the mechanic of game balance. It need not be a universal application to balance between the two arcane full spellcasting classes. Just being given the ability to heal oneself with comparatively little effort is a major boon. The same benefit need not be given to other classes for this reason.

It is, quite honestly, the reason that the warforged sorcerer is so insanely powerful. Not only are they full spellcasters, but they also have immunity to most important things that would harm a spellcaster. They can reliably heal themselves, and can do it faster than any other class.

[Borror0]

The mechanic was intended to balance across the two arcane full spellcasting classes, not divine and "half casters."
Ya, that's exactly what I said. "Back at launch, sorcerers were gimped wizards." followed by "they gave sorcerers a better casting speed to make up for that."

You're basically agreeing with me: it was not to replace spontaneous spellcasting but rather to balance sorcerers to wizards.

[Xyfiel]

Ranger:
Level 17: 3/3/2/2
Level 18: 4/3/2/2
Level 19: 4/4/4/3
Level 20: 4/4/4/4


From what I remember bringing my Ranger up to 20 in beta. This was first install of Lamannia, doubt it changed.

[Aspenor]

balance sorcerers to wizards.

With the excuse that sorcerers cast spontaneously. ;)

[Borror0]

With the excuse that sorcerers cast spontaneously. ;)
Well, yeah, because it's better to persuade the D&D purist.

It probably happened like this:

D&D purist: Sorcerers are not supposed to cast faster than wizards!
Developer: Oh, we gave sorcerers that for... (Hmmm... I don't they'll like the "for balance justification". I'll just get flamed on the forums and yelled at internally.)... errr... spontaneous casting! Yeah, it's to emulate spontaneous casting! (hehe, I'm a genius.)

[Aspenor]

Well, yeah, because it's better to persuade the D&D purist.

It probably happened like this:

D&D purist: Sorcerers are not supposed to cast faster than wizards!
Developer: Oh, we gave sorcerers that for... (Hmmm... I don't they'll like the "for balance justification". I'll just get flamed on the forums and yelled at internally.)... errr... spontaneous casting! Yeah, it's to emulate spontaneous casting! (hehe, I'm a genius.)

That's why I'm a DM, and you're a forums *****. ;)

[Borror0]

I'm still missing a lot of confirmations...

[Seneca_Windforge]

I have no idea why wizards have that extra spell slot. Quite frankly though, the very last thing that wizards need right now is power taken away, so my own explanation is that (at this point in time) wizards have it as a power boost.

[SteeleTrueheart]

Paladin 19
4/4/4/3