Dear Favoured Soul, an open letter..

[Khurse]

Dear FvS.

Hi
How are you doing?

I know we've had our differences but I'd like to try and clear them up.
I agree it is completely your right to decide what kind of toon you want to play, and if you want to play him as a healer or not.
That being said, please refrain from joining my parties with the "Looking for a Healer" sign on the door, telling us you do heal, then announcing once we're into Von 3 that you thought a group "looking for a healer" meant "looking for a player who can keep themself healed"

That's called "Bring your own heals" in party lingo.

Also note, that while I find it commendable that you are building your toon how you want, declaring that you're not build to heal anyone but yourself, and then getting p*ssed at the cleric when he wouldn't heal or cast restore on you is not really a positive team building plan.

They sell these things called "scrolls" in House J. They have all the fun spells on them.

Cordially never running with you again.

[Thelmallen]

Lots of frustraiton around the FvS builds (or more accurately the way people are playing them). Makes me nervous to start playing the one I rolled up!

[Ulurjah]

Lots of frustraiton around the FvS builds (or more accurately the way people are playing them). Makes me nervous to start playing the one I rolled up!

It's not really the class. It's some players with a very bad attitude. Lots of players have made FvS builds that aren't healers. They have a huge chip on their shoulder, so they're out to "show" everyone. So what you get is groups who obviously need a healer and are looking for one, and then some player out to make a point clicks the LFM because it has FvS and Cleric as the requested classes to fill the last spot.

These players with very bad attitude's is really the problem. It's almost like they WANT to be offended and they WANT to have a fight about it.

It's simple. If you are a Favored Soul and you don't heal ... don't join LFM's that are obviously looking for a healer. If in doubt, whisper the party leader. Soooooo difficult.

[Khurse]

Yeah, if you want to play a FvS play one, and since I'm not paying for you to play I don't really have any say on how you play, so play whatevever you want.
I personally don't think FvS are going to be in demand DPS machines at high levels, but if you think you can make it work, go for it. I'm rolling one up that will be a caster/healer.

Just let people know what you're playing, I've already grouped with multiple FvS who ignored a "looking for healers" tag and joined because the FvS emblem was up. Most of the runs were STK/Deleras though so it didn't really matter.
The Von run however was..annoying.

[rest]

FvS is the new monk :p

[Jonny_D]

FvS is the new monk :p

fvs monk multi class ftw:eek:;):D

[BlackRage]

FvS is the new monk :p

As a class FvS > Monk - it is all the ****tards that play the 'cool' classes that do not know how to play.

Ranger => Monk => FvS

[Ranmaru2]

that sounds more like an LFM misunderstanding than anything. I don't see how you can get that ****ed at the person who committed this offense to not want to group with them again. You do know that we'll be having a bunch of people coming in who won't understand our LFM lingo right?

I'm sorry, but this just sounds like a simple misunderstanding that can be solved really easily by asking the person politely if they could leave group as you're looking for more of a healing orientated kind of build.

I don't even know how to respond to these kind of threads anymore. Honestly, the idea I have of a favored soul is that they're the long awaited model of what we've wanted for battle clerics everywhere. People realize this and want to make them so that they have more sp, higher saves, and (maybe) a tad better DPS than your standard battle cleric. What's wrong with that?

[rest]

it is all the ****tards that play the 'cool' classes that do not know how to play.


Which is exactly what happened when monk first came out. Everyone wanted one, even if they didn't have the ability to play them, or build them, correctly.

[Ulurjah]

that sounds more like an LFM misunderstanding than anything. I don't see how you can get that ****ed at the person who committed this offense to not want to group with them again. You do know that we'll be having a bunch of people coming in who won't understand our LFM lingo right?

I'm sorry, but this just sounds like a simple misunderstanding that can be solved really easily by asking the person politely if they could leave group as you're looking for more of a healing orientated kind of build.

I don't even know how to respond to these kind of threads anymore. Honestly, the idea I have of a favored soul is that they're the long awaited model of what we've wanted for battle clerics everywhere. People realize this and want to make them so that they have more sp, higher saves, and (maybe) a tad better DPS than your standard battle cleric. What's wrong with that?

Nothing is wrong with that. But the burden is squarely on the player who is the favored soul to let the group know he's not a healer, especially if the group needs heals.

[Vormaerin]

Nothing is wrong with that. Though good battle clerics can also heal while they are doing other stuff. The great thing about DDO is that you can build a character to fill almost any role you like. No one cares if a character with FvS levels says "hey, do you need a melee guy?" and competes with the other melee guys for slots. But if the group obviously has a bunch of melee guys and no healer, bringing another melee guy in by virtue of being favored soul without mentioning it is deceitful.

Btw, we don't have very many noobs playing yet... you have to be a former subscriber or beta participant to be in already. And if the player is a genuine noob, I doubt he's doing Von3 on his third day in the game.... You kind of have to know what to do in order to level that fast.

[Ranmaru2]

@Ulurjah - Like I said, LFM misunderstanding.

@Vormaerin - Could always have been a player returning from a break who is with a guild that can help power level. We don't know all the specifics for this scenario or who the players were. I'm just not so quick to jump on the OP's gravy train.

and I do know about the battle cleric stuff, as my main atm is a Battle Cleric I've been playing for the last year and is the first I flagged in mod ********.

[Vormaerin]

Yes..it could. But what's your point? No one cares if a specific individual acted in this way on a specific date. That's entirely tangential to the issue at hand, which is that its important to inform the party leader what role your character is designed to fill. This is particularly true if you don't have any interest/ability in the most common role for your dominant class.

DDO probably ought to replace the class slots in LFM with role slots. Melee DPS, Ranged DPS, Traps/Locks, CC, Spell DPS, Healing. Then this wouldn't be as much of a problem.

[jsaving]

As I see it, the weapon-based class features and high spell points of the favored soul naturally lead players toward the conclusion that they can combine "battle cleric", healbot and offensive caster into the same build. Unfortunately the buffs needed to be a viable melee combatant take up too many spell slots to leave much left for more typical cleric spells. Compounding the problem is the fact that burning 3-5 feats on melee prowess doesn't leave much room for standard offensive-caster choices like spell pen and spell focus, which leaves out a role as primary offensive caster. And because it feels like a waste to have a melee-specced character cooling his heels distributing cures to other party members, favored souls don't typically even do the amount of healing their builds are capable of doing, which is itself considerably less than what the party would like them to do.

So I think the problem really lies with people's expectations regarding the favored soul. While it's certainly possible to make a very strong healing-oriented favored soul, most people are going to opt for healing-challenged favored souls instead who are very similar to battle clerics -- with all the positives and negatives that role implies. It isn't a "weak" build, really, but it will clearly be less desirable to parties than the "divine sorcerer" many people currently perceive/hope favored souls to be.

[Stormanne]

I'm building my FS to be a good secondary healer/nuker and have enough melee ability to hold his own (read, not need someone to save her a$$ immediately) when/if she runs out of mana. Depending on what she looks like, she may be changed to a full healer or nuker later on, but hoping for a decent jack of all trades (not delusional enough to think she'll be a master of anything)

I do agree, that not taking the healing spells is kind of defeating the purpose of the class, regardless of what you are trying to do with the character.

[Khurse]

@Ulurjah - Like I said, LFM misunderstanding.

@Vormaerin - Could always have been a player returning from a break who is with a guild that can help power level. We don't know all the specifics for this scenario or who the players were. I'm just not so quick to jump on the OP's gravy train.

and I do know about the battle cleric stuff, as my main atm is a Battle Cleric I've been playing for the last year and is the first I flagged in mod ********.

Nah I'm not saying the guy was an elite level player- but he was (according to him anyway) sporting +5MFP, greater bane weapons etc. And he knew Von 3, none of that makes him agood player, but should suggest that he should at least have a clue.

And I'm actually going to go against any idea of a misunderstanding- having a group say 'looking for healer" is pretty self explanatory. I'll be the first to admit I hvae no idea what some of the lingo is (what the h e double hockey sticks is a "hat" and why do groups on different servers say "no hats"?? )


The part that bothers me is when a player plays a class that is as fully capable of healing as a cleric choose not to do so and then b*tch out the cleric for not keeping himup. As well as not restoring him etc.

[Jonny_D]

I'll be the first to admit I hvae no idea what some of the lingo is (what the h e double hockey sticks is a "hat" and why do groups on different servers say "no hats"?? )


a hat is when the mobs get charmed and have pink triangle that looks like a hat

[Ranmaru2]

Nah I'm not saying the guy was an elite level player- but he was (according to him anyway) sporting +5MFP, greater bane weapons etc. And he knew Von 3, none of that makes him agood player, but should suggest that he should at least have a clue.

And I'm actually going to go against any idea of a misunderstanding- having a group say 'looking for healer" is pretty self explanatory. I'll be the first to admit I hvae no idea what some of the lingo is (what the h e double hockey sticks is a "hat" and why do groups on different servers say "no hats"?? )


The part that bothers me is when a player plays a class that is as fully capable of healing as a cleric choose not to do so and then b*tch out the cleric for not keeping himup. As well as not restoring him etc.

ah...you see that clears up a lot. Yeah, that goes beyond a misunderstanding at that point and borders on arrogant stupidity.

@Vormaerin - we all know how dynamic the scope of builds can be you'll run into in this game, and I would have to agree that it's way too much of what people expect the Favored Soul to be versus what it's being used for. Everyone seems to expect the Favored Soul to be that character that completely annihilates the need for a cleric like they think that Sorcs make Wizards completely inferior. Both expectations are completely false and forget that each class has different roles to play and aren't inherently chopped into one road or another (Although no domains kind of makes that argument a little difficult for the cleric).

The community at large seems to look at them too much as larger sp pool healbots perfect for baby sitting idiots for an extended period of time. I don't agree with that viewpoint at all, and actually view the FvS as a more complex version of the battle cleric type build, as you don't get to customize your spells on a whim, but instead have to choose what you're going to use as you go along, as well as when you get to the later parts of the game. I've been considering rolling one and actually see, based on messing around with the character planner, just how much more difficult it is to get a build to be equal in all aspects to my existing battle cleric. Expect less from the FvS and be more accepting of what people are making. If a person clicks your lfm that's looking for a Clr/FvS (without the appropriate healer only apply text) then just send them a tell asking in a friendly manner if they're heal spec'd or more melee and don't want to be the main healer. Communication goes a long way.

[Fenrisulven6]

Yah, I'm thinking that if I want a Healer, I'll just put the Cleric icon up.

Treat FS like Bards re party healing, unless they ping me that they're healing spec'ed.

Fair?

[wolfy42]

I think part of the problem is that just too many people are playing Favored souls that have never played a cleric......and especially never played a battle cleric (well at least).

I never had a problem keeping my parties fully healed as a battle cleric and I certainly don't as a FvS either. Heck with the new extension to your amplify powers duration it's easier then every to heal and fight at the same time.

To really work well as a battle cleric or melee centered FvS (Mine is a WF btw) you need to know the quests at least somewhat so you know how much healing is likely to be needed and you need to be able to pay attention to players hp bars while killing yourself.

You actually have MORE sp then a cleric does naturally and you need to use less sp to buff yourself to reach the same level of battle effectivness (not to mention action boost usages for quick boosts in AR etc).

Some quests are just plain to dangerous to have your primary healer in the front lines so you need to know when to step back or when you need to be ready to heal big time to keep party members alive. Most though if your careful and well organized will allow a battle cleric or FvS to participate in most if not all of the battles without any serious danger to your fellow team mates. If they are not total jerks they will have ways to heal themselves in an emergency as well (even if just potions) and will be at least slightly restrained in the damage they take so you can enjoy yourself as well.

I certainly don't refuse to heal people in a party...but I am not going to spend all my time doing it either. You don't need to be a heal bot as a cleric...and you certainly don't need to be one as a FvS either. In fact due to the split between cha and wis...it's more likely your FvS will either be melee/healing or offensive/healing centered...but not all 3.

[Weylan]

Nothing is wrong with that. But the burden is squarely on the player who is the favored soul to let the group know he's not a healer, especially if the group needs heals.

Or the group leader could, you know, ask the FvS how he is built? This is not solely the FvS player's fault.

Unless he pulled the VoN stuff you mentioned. But that's less about the class and more about the player being a jerk.

[Ulurjah]

Or the group leader could, you know, ask the FvS how he is built? This is not solely the FvS player's fault.

Unless he pulled the VoN stuff you mentioned. But that's less about the class and more about the player being a jerk.

Sorry mate. If a group is only looking for a FvS or a Cleric, then 99% of the time they want a healer. If they wanted a melee, then they'd have Fighter, Barb, Paladin, Monk, Ranger or some combination thereof lit up also. If you play a Favored Soul, you have a burden upon you to make sure you clarify with groups what role you want to fill ... in any situation where it's not clear to you.

What a lot of players are doing right now is intentionally asking into groups that are clearly in need of heals, and then pitching a fit when they are asked to heal. They're out looking for a fight ... and of course when you go looking you can easily find one.

[Arkat]

DDO probably ought to replace the class slots in LFM with role slots. Melee DPS, Ranged DPS, Traps/Locks, CC, Spell DPS, Healing. Then this wouldn't be as much of a problem.

/Signed

+1 Rep for you

[Arkat]

The community at large seems to look at them too much as larger sp pool healbots perfect for baby sitting idiots for an extended period of time. I don't agree with that viewpoint at all, and actually view the FvS as a more complex version of the battle cleric type build, as you don't get to customize your spells on a whim, but instead have to choose what you're going to use as you go along, as well as when you get to the later parts of the game. I've been considering rolling one and actually see, based on messing around with the character planner, just how much more difficult it is to get a build to be equal in all aspects to my existing battle cleric. Expect less from the FvS and be more accepting of what people are making. If a person clicks your lfm that's looking for a Clr/FvS (without the appropriate healer only apply text) then just send them a tell asking in a friendly manner if they're heal spec'd or more melee and don't want to be the main healer. Communication goes a long way.



Agreed and well stated.

+1 Rep for you

[Arkat]

Yah, I'm thinking that if I want a Healer, I'll just put the Cleric icon up.

Treat FS like Bards re party healing, unless they ping me that they're healing spec'ed.

Fair?

Very much so.

+1 Rep for you

[Grond]

These players with very bad attitude's is really the problem. It's almost like they WANT to be offended and they WANT to have a fight about it.



True, true. A microcosm of society these days...

[Riorik]

Nothing is wrong with that. Though good battle clerics can also heal while they are doing other stuff.

Yes, but this is a huge understatement. Healing (well) while playing as a battlecleric is amazingly difficult. The issue is all the multitasking. It's possible & playable, just far harder than almost any other class/multiclass options around.

And, the truth is, even a lot of players that think they do it well - don't - and they hide/dodge any responsibility for it. I'm all about self-sufficiency, don't get me wrong, it's just...it can't always be somebody elses problem.

I agree, the better players will look at the quest & the group -- and they might even be familiar with the players themselves. Judge what you see, determine what role you're likely to have to slide into, and do it. Anything else is being a weenie. The best players get it done whatever they need to do and don't hide behind "I'm not a healing build". Everybody does everything when it's needed.

[Riorik]

The community at large seems to look at them too much as larger sp pool healbots perfect for baby sitting idiots for an extended period of time.

This is the type of stuff that makes me throw my hands in the air and ask why - rhetorically. For the most part, if you need more spell points, you're probably doing something wrong. More spell points is exactly like handing you a crutch and an excuse to not improve your playing skills.

[Jundak]

This is the type of stuff that makes me throw my hands in the air and ask why - rhetorically. For the most part, if you need more spell points, you're probably doing something wrong. More spell points is exactly like handing you a crutch and an excuse to not improve your playing skills.

/signed

[Kalanth]

To the OP:

I fully understand and support your thoughts on this. Personally, with my LFM's, I take down FvS when I am done filling the melee characters. Why do I do this? Because I expect a FvS to heal about as much as I expect a sorc to carry a slew of buffs. It does not have the feel of a healer to me, but more of a tank with self healing abilities. I know I built a FvS with the intent of not taking a single healing spell (but caved in becuase I have a weakness for wanting to remain alive).

Maybe time will change this view, but for now this is just another fancy verison of a melee class.

[Ranmaru2]

This is the type of stuff that makes me throw my hands in the air and ask why - rhetorically. For the most part, if you need more spell points, you're probably doing something wrong. More spell points is exactly like handing you a crutch and an excuse to not improve your playing skills.

This is exactly the reason I won't roll a sorcerer and keep my wizard :D

Albeit, in new content, my battle cleric tries to play main healer, but with the amount of damage output I can see where the favored soul would shine. Hell, even 17 clerics are running out of sp with all sorts of crowd control laid down. The amount we're getting hit almost makes AC builds absolutely necessary, and I think it's also a fault of the DDO developers to think that there is a massive influx of AC builds out there, when the reality is that there are only a handful that actually exist across all servers, as the excessive grinding to get all of the gear drives most people insane.

I have no clue what roll the FvS is expected to fill here in DDO, but I would like to see them as more than "HEY THAT HEALBOI HAZ MORE SP!!! PICK HIM UP!"

[Arkat]

I would like to see them as more than "HEY THAT HEALBOI HAZ MORE SP!!! PICK HIM UP!"

Which, unfortunately, is how most people (including some forum regulars with HUGE post counts) see them.

[woundweaver]

has any fvs's thought of doing both?? ive been meleeing, AND tossing heals. not that difficult. it aint like you have alot of spells to choose from. granted, im not gonna play cleric and follow groups around, or buffing you to the hilt before and after shrines, but im sure as hell aint gonna let you die, and screw with my xp

[SableShadow]

has any fvs's thought of doing both?? ive been meleeing, AND tossing heals. not that difficult. it aint like you have alot of spells to choose from

Kinda thought that was the point of playing anything that can throw heals: if the party needs it, throw it.

A fair number of us have been doing the new stuff with just collections of rangers, rogues, and palis healing each other and the fighters/barbs/arcanes with us.

[Kalanth]

has any fvs's thought of doing both?? ive been meleeing, AND tossing heals. not that difficult. it aint like you have alot of spells to choose from. granted, im not gonna play cleric and follow groups around, or buffing you to the hilt before and after shrines, but im sure as hell aint gonna let you die, and screw with my xp

And right there is what makes a battle cleric memorable. Eventually the FvS players will understand this as well and start doing the same. I have blind faith of this.

[Weylan]

And right there is what makes a battle cleric memorable. Eventually the FvS players will understand this as well and start doing the same. I have blind faith of this.

I have blind faith that one day people will stop pigeonholing Favored Souls as their personal HP battery.

Yeah, I think I'm going to be disappointed there. :(

[Kalanth]

I have blind faith that one day people will stop pigeonholing Favored Souls as their personal HP battery.

Yeah, I think I'm going to be disappointed there. :(

Agreed. I hate when people expect the cleric to stand in the back and heal, and I hate that people expect that of the FvS. Healer does not mean incapable of fighting. The pigeonhole is thanks to games like EQ and WoW, cause most PnP's know that the cleric and FvS are capable of much more than just healing.

[Uska]

FvS is the new monk :p

Not even close, people didnt put monks up for a long time because they thought they couldnt do anything, people do put of FvS expecting something and arent always getting what they want, that being said I have ran into a couple of them recently that wanted to be healers and took max cha not realizing they really didnt need to do that.

[Hirosue]

I think a lot of people are totally missing the point about what the favoured Soul class it intended to be. If you look at the class’s discussion forum there is a very big hint right at the top of the forum for favoured soul.

“ Favoured Soul Chosen by their god, the Favoured Soul wields divine powers to heal and … destroy! “

There you have it a class designed to use divine powers to heal and damage. By its very nature the class lends itself very well to divine nuking and healing.

Favoured Soul has bigger spell pool than cleric. So forgive me for pointing this out but. Use the spell pool for divine nukes i.e. blade barrier, destruction, harm, greater command, comet fall, blind /curse and so on. And you can melee also. But people seam to be totally missing the great strength of the class, it big spell pool. They just want to make some gimpy 2nd rank melee that heals/buffs itself and wont help the party.

It amazes me that people really miss the great potential of this class. FS has Sorc like spell pool. Why not use it to cast lots of maximised blade barriers. Lots of comet fall, flame strike, destruction, banishment. There’s a whole host of divine nukes out there that do big damage, crowd control, instant kills. In addition you can also help out the cleric with some healing buffing if you like.

Personally if I am playing my cleric and leading a group I would really welcome a divine nuker into the group. The Crowd control and damage potential of this classes spell set ,combined with its big spell pool could be fantastic.

I really wouldn’t mind a single bit if a nuker FS was in my party and didn’t do any healing at all, in fact i would welcome it . But a 2nd rate melee build, or a selfish non team player no thank you.

[Vormaerin]

I find it amusing how people always seem to act as if "you should be able to heal when necessary" is "you are my personal hp battery and should stand in the back watching red bars". Who is actually saying this? I don't see it. Frankly, pure 'healbots' are almost always a waste of a slot, except maybe in some raids. A good cleric or bard or favored soul is going to be doing stuff besides spamming healing, at least if the rest of the group is also decent.

Favored Souls are less versatile as clerics, so you really can't expect them to do as much even though they have more spell points. They just don't have the variety of spells. But it just doesn't make any sense for them not to take a couple good healing spells (like Heal), as which point they are more than capable of contributing to group health as well as whatever they are doing.

[IgorUnchained]

I have a FvS rolled up and I have only played it a bit, but I havent had any problems.
I read up on them a bit, but the information Im seeking is hard to come by. Most of the info is PnP based or was hearsay on the forums....neither is an accurate thing to base a toon on.

I decided to pick it up and play it by ear. I went for some melee power, but also jacked up Wis/Cha. I play a lot of bards, so I know the drill to a degree. That said, I was still surprised how squishy the FvS was, as compared to a cleric, at early levels. Definitely not the solo toon or melee capable toon I am used to.

That is my experience, with my build, as of level 3. I didnt pick a mini-max template from the forums and I really just wanted to jump in and get a feel for the class. My Mule is my monk, Maihuang. He got to level 5 before I realized that I wasnt going to enjoy playing him correctly. That may happen with my FvS, or it might be like Bard and become an addiction after I see what they are capable of at higher levels and get in my stride with the toon.

So:

1) If I dont know what my build is capable of at these low levels, YOU sure as hell dont know. Let it play out....specify "Healer" in LFMs.....or dont allow FvS in your parties. Same thing happened to Rangers and Monks at one time.

2) Dont fault the people who have been waiting for a new class for months for actually TESTING THE CLASS when it is finally released. That is ridiculous. Every one of you "they just like the new and popular class" naysayers miss the point so badly. This is a game....this isnt a job.

"Just because you dont understand it dont mean it dont make no sense....and just because you dont like it dont mean it aint no good". -ST

[Weylan]

I have a FvS rolled up and I have only played it a bit, but I havent had any problems.

Yeah honestly, you're not going to have much of a problem in-game unless you somehow run into one of these forum superstars. Most people either don't care or are fine with you playing however you want. It's only here that the smugness and condescension becomes so thick.

[Vormaerin]

Of course you aren't going to have any problems. Most of the quests in the game can be completed by a group playing Helen Keller, Stephen Hawking, and my grandmother given how well known they are. Few people are looking for specific roles before the teens and even then most of the quests can be done short handed easily enough, so bringing along a guy who turns out to be a charity case isn't a problem as long as he's not unfun to be around.

Its obviously a mutual responsibility between all members of the group when forming a pug. But the player seeking to join someone else's group does, imho, bear more of the responsibility. The leader can't really be expected to type in "needs f/b/p/r who uses weapons, rogue who can disarm traps, etc". The game lets you make a barbarian crossbowman. That doesn't mean a group leader should reasonably expect he might get one when he has "barb" indicated.

[Weylan]

so bringing along a guy who turns out to be a charity case

Are you stating that a character not built 'optimally' brings nothing to the group?

If the majority of the content is relatively easy, and the character is contributing to the group enough to get the group through that content, why does it matter that it's not an 'optimal' build?

And please, no strawman arguments about the other 5 group members doing all the work for the sixth. If it's so important to the other people that every member of the group must be 'optimal' then they can boot the sixth person, or reform without him.

[Hellllboy]

I dont know what groups you guys have been playing with-but any lowbie group I have run with 6-8 level (aprox.) has 3-4 FvS per group anyhow (based on the popularity of the new class) and healing is pretty much done by commitee.

Im sure after a while-it will thin out a bit, but for the time being-does a group really need to worry about healing with the influx of FvS population?

Im sure there are bigger issues to deal with besides "My FvS in party wont heal me".

[Hellllboy]

But-For the record-I do agree they need to take advantage of the abilities given to them and heal. :p

[Vormaerin]

Are you stating that a character not built 'optimally' brings nothing to the group?


Sure, he brings something to the group. Not as much as someone actually trying to be effective and maybe not enough to handle their role if its actually a difficult quest.

But that's a completely irrelevant tangent, because this discussion is obviously only important for the actual hard content where you need the group to function. If you are doing content where it doesn't matter what or if you have anyone along, you aren't making any specifications in your LFM, are you?

[IgorUnchained]

Of course you aren't going to have any problems. Most of the quests in the game can be completed by a group playing Helen Keller, Stephen Hawking, and my grandmother given how well known they are. Few people are looking for specific roles before the teens and even then most of the quests can be done short handed easily enough, so bringing along a guy who turns out to be a charity case isn't a problem as long as he's not unfun to be around.

Its obviously a mutual responsibility between all members of the group when forming a pug. But the player seeking to join someone else's group does, imho, bear more of the responsibility. The leader can't really be expected to type in "needs f/b/p/r who uses weapons, rogue who can disarm traps, etc". The game lets you make a barbarian crossbowman. That doesn't mean a group leader should reasonably expect he might get one when he has "barb" indicated.

For all of my dislike of powergamers, mini-maxers, griefers, exploiters, zergers, and smurfs......I pretty much agree with what you say.

Depending on your experience level and your build, you could pretty much solo non-raid quests. The other side of the coin, but using the same factors, it isnt uncommon to see party wipes around optional ogres in WW or STK with a few badly played toons. A good group can overcome anything with dedication and resources. A bad group, in some situations, could mess up a peanut butter and jelly sandwich.

I dont think it is hard for the leader of the group to specify "healer" and not just put up perceived healer classes. I also dont think it is hard to announce that you are new to the game, a battle cleric/warchanter bard and that youre self sufficient and helpful, but not the kind of toon to be a primary healer.
Still, I am with you that I could be a noob with a robe wearing halfling barb (double raged) and if I am played well I should be more of a help than a hinderance to the party.

The FvS issue boils down, once again, to "other people's expectations". That is as far as we really need to go without even getting too deep into "basic logic and empathy". Dont expect anything out of someone because of their build. Now more than ever, there are new builds being tested and a resurgence of new people and old people rediscovering the game. Dont expect them to know their toons, know the quests, or even know what stacks with what. Trial and error will teach them more than a petty internet argument with one of these internet warriors.

Weylan- Dead on, bro

[likuei]

I really think that people were expecting a healing class, and one that would dedicate themselves to that role. In the real world, people want to use their resources to do what they want to do, and the game is a reflection of that. Even healers will tell you that it is not fun to sit around and be a nannybot to a group of players that the only interaction they have with the rest of the party is to watch their redbars.

Melee specc'd divine casters have been around since day one. YES ... they are better healers than most melee specc'd characters. YES ... they usually have a high survivability when they do melee, even though they don't bring upper level DPS to the game. NO ... they are not a poor build choice and I welcome them in party whenever I find a good one.

NOW COMES THE FvS. A (better) melee capable Divine Caster. Clerics were short on sp in full melee mode, simply because their weapon swinging melee buffs are shorter than defensive buffs, requiring recasting the spells to maintain their melee advantage. FvS is a boon to a melee specc'd Divine Caster ... more sp for healing when the quest is near the end = more survivability at the end (can carry fewer scrolls, potions, wands and mana potions).

People who don't play clerics (and I say this ONLY from experience) and play melee characters, don't really understand being self sufficient. They feel that their resources should go to weapons, armor and repairs. The investment into these things may seem large, but until they have to have all of that AND spell components, scrolls and potions/wands in their packs also, they don't understand the time that is involved and the resources you must dedicate in leveling a Divine Caster. When you put that much time into a character, you want to play and have fun also; FvS give Divine Melee that option ... better than a cleric.

Let them play it, just make sure you put healer in the comment line so there is no question what you want them to bring to the table. And I thank those that only want nannybots for posting in this and other threads downing Divine Melee characters ...

[Vormaerin]

Who is downing divine melee characters or asking for nannybots? Battle clerics, Offensive Caster clerics and their FvS equivalents are great characters. But the good ones toss heals on other people when needed, too. This whole discussion was begun because of divine casters, FvS in this case, who would not heal others even when there was no other reasonable alternative.

No one has been asking for nannybots. No one has any respect for people who think they need one. Nannybots are pretty close to a wasted slot in 99% of the quests. Please toss your CC and damage spells or swing your scimitars around. But if you've got a Heal spell and your buddy is going down, why on earth wouldn't you toss one on him? If you don't want to be part of a team, don't join one. And if you can't Heal...why did you take Favored Soul or cleric anyway?

[Weylan]

This whole discussion was begun because of divine casters, FvS in this case, who would not heal others even when there was no other reasonable alternative.

I would say this discussion began because some people couldn't accept that fact that a FvS could be built without any healing capability at all.

Note that I am not advocating that in any sense other than 'it's a valid choice if someone wants to build their character like that'.

[Vormaerin]

Sure its okay, in the same way my repeating crossbow fighter is. Fun, but not something I would use when other people are counting on me to be a full contributor to a tough run.

[Lifeblood]

Lots of frustraiton around the FvS builds (or more accurately the way people are playing them). Makes me nervous to start playing the one I rolled up!


sorry to hear that..on the bright side I ran all of the vale quests today on elite (13-17 no pikers) with my 14 sorc and a FS/monk 11/2 (spec. for fighting) as our healer. I was very happy with the way he kept us alive

its the player not the class.. play well and you will be well received