Bow Strength is Too Feat-Expensive

[ManinBlaq]

Honestly, requiring 4 feats & +4 BAB - all to add your strength modifier to bow attacks, is pretty ridiculous. [Especially when you consider that in 3.5 mechanics it was available to everyone as merely a money sink.]

I like the the idea of Bow Strength as a feat -- but frankly, I feel Point Blank Shot and a BAB requirement are enough. [+4 BAB however is overboard.]

Here are some specific grievances I have with the current requirements:

Power Attack: unless there is a AP or feat line to allow power attacking with a bow, this feat is absolutely useless in a ranged base feat chain.

Combat Expertise: I have to invest 13 Int to be able to add my str to a bow? While this feat is more beneficial to a ranged specialist -- it does exclude many viable build options - specifically casters, and barbarians.

Weapon Specialization: Fighters are the only class that has to burn a feat that's actually compatible with their goal. While this feels like less of a 'waste'; the fact is they still have to burn a feat for a benefit that wasn't reasonably priced.

As it stands right now - a non-human, non-fighter -- who is pursuing 'Ranged' combat (IE - the most inferior DPS in the game) would have to wait until level 9, before finally obtaining 'Bow Strength". During that whole time, they would have to forgo Rapid Shot, Improved Critical, Manyshot ... basically all of the feats that make ranged combat slightly viable.

Recommendation: Bow Strength should require Point Blank Shot and +2 BAB -- period.
You're already spending a feat on "Bow Strength" itself -- more 'flavor' feats shouldn't be required. This allows a Fighter to possess Bow Strength by level 2, and every other non-ranger/fighter build by level 3. It also preserves the rangers 'specialness' as they get the feat sooner & without requiring the additional feat.

[BlackSteel]

four feats?

just need to pick up PA and any ONE of the others.

So any class could get it by lvl 6, and a fighter by lvl 4.

[Goldeneye]

You need all of:
Point Blank Shot
Weapon Focus Ranger


You need 1 of the following:
Power Attack
Combat Expertise
Weapon Spec: Ranged.


That does seem like a pain, but I like the idea. The idea is that you are making a previously class-only feat available to everyone. As a result, it is much harder for a person who has trained as a different class to learn Bow Strength, making the requirements and dedication more important.

[Angelus_dead]

That does seem like a pain, but I like the idea. The idea is that you are making a previously class-only feat available to everyone. As a result, it is much harder for a person who has trained as a different class to learn Bow Strength, making the requirements and dedication more important.
The failure of that logic is the presumption that it was correct for Bow Strength to ever have been class-only in the first place.

[Letrii]

Just add composite bows and call it a day.

[Visty]

Just add composite bows and call it a day.

there are composite bows, just not mighty ones

[Letrii]

What does mighty have anything to do with it?

A normal composite bow should do same thing as feat. Unless this is another of the nerfs from PnP.

[Visty]

What does mighty have anything to do with it?

A normal composite bow should do same thing as feat. Unless this is another of the nerfs from PnP.

in pnp only mighty bows add str to damage, just composite bows dont do that but they are the only one which can have mighty on it

[Letrii]

Wrong, composite bows add Str bonus upto strength rating of the bow. See bolded section.

Longbow, Composite: You need at least two hands to use a bow,
regardless of its size. You can use a composite longbow while
mounted. Composite bows are made from laminated horn, wood, or
bone and built with a recurve, meaning that the bow remains bowshaped
even when unstrung. All composite bows are made with a
particular strength rating (that is, each requires a minimum
Strength modifier to use with proficiency). If your Strength bonus is
less than the strength rating of the composite bow, you can’t
effectively use it, so you take a –2 penalty on attacks with it. The
default composite longbow requires a Strength modifier of +0 or
higher to use with proficiency. A composite longbow can be made
with a high strength rating (representing an especially heavy pull) to
take advantage of an above-average Strength score; this feature
allows you to add your Strength bonus to damage, up to the
maximum bonus indicated for the bow. Each point of Strength
bonus granted by the bow adds 100 gp to its cost. For instance, a
composite longbow (+1 Str bonus) costs 200 gp, while a composite
longbow (+4 Str bonus) costs 500 gp.
For example, Tordek has a +2 Strength bonus. With a regular
composite longbow, he gets no modifier on damage rolls. For 200
gp, he can buy a composite longbow (+1 Str bonus), which lets him
add +1 to his damage rolls. For 300 gp, he can buy one that lets him
add his entire +2 Strength bonus. Even if he paid 400 gp for a
composite longbow (+3 Str bonus), he would still get only a +2 bonus
on damage rolls and takes a –2 penalty on attacks with it because
his Strength is insufficient to use the weapon to best advantage. The
bow can’t grant him a higher bonus than he already has.

[spifflove]

Wrong, composite bows add Str bonus upto strength rating of the bow. See bolded section.

Longbow, Composite: You need at least two hands to use a bow,
regardless of its size. You can use a composite longbow while
mounted. Composite bows are made from laminated horn, wood, or
bone and built with a recurve, meaning that the bow remains bowshaped
even when unstrung. All composite bows are made with a
particular strength rating (that is, each requires a minimum
Strength modifier to use with proficiency). If your Strength bonus is
less than the strength rating of the composite bow, you can’t
effectively use it, so you take a –2 penalty on attacks with it. The
default composite longbow requires a Strength modifier of +0 or
higher to use with proficiency. A composite longbow can be made
with a high strength rating (representing an especially heavy pull) to
take advantage of an above-average Strength score; this feature
allows you to add your Strength bonus to damage, up to the
maximum bonus indicated for the bow. Each point of Strength
bonus granted by the bow adds 100 gp to its cost. For instance, a
composite longbow (+1 Str bonus) costs 200 gp, while a composite
longbow (+4 Str bonus) costs 500 gp.
For example, Tordek has a +2 Strength bonus. With a regular
composite longbow, he gets no modifier on damage rolls. For 200
gp, he can buy a composite longbow (+1 Str bonus), which lets him
add +1 to his damage rolls. For 300 gp, he can buy one that lets him
add his entire +2 Strength bonus. Even if he paid 400 gp for a
composite longbow (+3 Str bonus), he would still get only a +2 bonus
on damage rolls and takes a –2 penalty on attacks with it because
his Strength is insufficient to use the weapon to best advantage. The
bow can’t grant him a higher bonus than he already has.

Ya but this is Stormreach so composit bows fall apart every time it rains:p. Really though the bow str feat means you can use a bow that normal men could not pull.
[even though in ddo this isnt accurately represented as it works on any bow]

[spifflove]

You need all of:
Point Blank Shot
Weapon Focus Ranger


You need 1 of the following:
Power Attack
Combat Expertise
Weapon Spec: Ranged.


That does seem like a pain, but I like the idea. The idea is that you are making a previously class-only feat available to everyone. As a result, it is much harder for a person who has trained as a different class to learn Bow Strength, making the requirements and dedication more important.


Two classes can afford this feat: fighters and warchanters [although warchanters are ranged gimped because they need weapon focus other than ranged, another issue]

The other classes will either spash ranger [barbarians] for the feat or if they must remain pure use a heavy repeater for more dps [spellcasters and dex builds] than they could get with bow strength.

Note, and this is big, that weapon focus ranged and point blank shot are prerequisites for elf arcane archer.

But, pure fighters cannot be arcane archers!!!!