Where you failed us

[dv8maker123]

Turbine,
This post is to iterate how your implentation of the free to play model has failed a couple of vet players interested in reevaluating the game. First of all, I want to point out that I only knew that this was an early launch because I monitor the forums on a regular basis. I did not receive an email or another type of invite at all. How many potential subscribers do you think you missed due to this oversight?

Regardless, today I downloaded the patch to determine if the game had improved enough to warrant a new subscription. To my surprise, even my brother, who had sworn off the game completely due to its lack of content and low population did the same, hoping the latest launch would prove worthwhile and incent us to pay for future subscriptions. Both of us were members of the beta, and have long histories with the game.

We both downloaded the upgrade and were forced to pick our 4 free to play toons when loggin in. I would like to note that we both picked our monks, however nowhere in the process did it clarify that we would not be able to use them in game without a fee (yes I recall this in the forums posts, but it was not clearly defined when making our selections). None the less, we first decided to log in with higher level characters to try to unlock my brothers 32 point build. He had a level 14 cleric and I had my level 16 wizard ( I already have 32 point unlocked on Argo). To our surprise, the good high level adventures such as the necropolis were unavailable, and only open via a fee. Even the classic Delara’s tomb was not an option.

Ok, with that we decided to load some lower level characters to see what we could do. Hey look a new low level quest near the bank….but it requires a pay to play. Ultimately we ended up running Red Fangs, which I have cleared more times than the earth has revolved around the sun. After completing that we came to a realization. All of the good quests, which I have paid a subscription fee for over the past couple of years now, where restricted for us. And the new content that would be interesting to us is also not available.

Now, while I understand the desire to draw revenue, I have a couple major concerns. One, how am I to evaluate your new scaling dungeon capabilities when all you made available are simplistic soloable dungeons to test. Second, while I may get to a point to subscribe again, the mass influx of new free to play members are useless to the population as they will not be able to group with players trying to do higher end questing. Though there may be an exponential growth in free to play characters, they will not have any access to your restricted content (which from my observation appears to be a significant list of quality dungeons). As such, the player population is still vitually extinct. For the nay sayers, I logged in at prime time and there are only 4 people looking for a group. Yes I could have posted my own invite and waited for responses, but that is a pretty pathetic number.
I have no problem paying $15 a month to play an MMO, however this launch has completely restricted my ability to test out new functionality, and has only confirmed that the population will remain limited in the new environment due to the dungeon availability. I know you need revenue, but players like me aren’t going to pay it until we get definitive proof that this new model is an improvement over the old one.

While I may still consider paying the 1 month subscription to see what the game has, you clearly have not made it obvious that the game is better than it was a month ago. Quite frankly, you have a histoy of dragging the populous along while falling short on expectations. In this case, you castrated our ability to even get into the new idiom by telling us we cant even participate in the new features. We are but two players, but I have to imagine we are not going to be the only ones turned off by this.

[TechNoFear]

First I want to say your opinion is valid, but want to point a few things out....


Turbine,
This post is to iterate how your implentation of the free to play model has failed a couple of vet players interested in reevaluating the game. First of all, I want to point out that I only knew that this was an early launch because I monitor the forums on a regular basis. I did not receive an email or another type of invite at all. How many potential subscribers do you think you missed due to this oversight?

There was more advertising of this update than any other. I do hope that included an email to all lapsed subs.


We both downloaded the upgrade and were forced to pick our 4 free to play toons when loggin in. I would like to note that we both picked our monks, however nowhere in the process did it clarify that we would not be able to use them in game without a fee

Opps.

It is the little things that make software user-friendly and are the difference between people using your product or not (IME designing SW for finacial and industrial apps).


All of the good quests, which I have paid a subscription fee for over the past couple of years now, where restricted for us. And the new content that would be interesting to us is also not available.

You should be able to buy some content with the ~1,750 points you have (as you have over 1,000 fav and 2+ years sub).


One, how am I to evaluate your new scaling dungeon capabilities when all you made available are simplistic soloable dungeons to test.

Aren't these all free?

SC, Gwylans, Tear of Dak, Church of the Cult, Pit, Xorian (1 & 2) and Made to Order.

BAM (Relic of the Sov. host) or Spawn of Whisperdoom would be a good test for your two characters.


Second, while I may get to a point to subscribe again, the mass influx of new free to play members are useless to the population as they will not be able to group with players trying to do higher end questing.

VIPs can buy 'Guest Passes', 90 mins of access to an area for a F2P player.

IMO Turbine assumes F2P'ers will have subed or bought the content by the time they get to 10+ lvl.


Though there may be an exponential growth in free to play characters, they will not have any access to your restricted content (which from my observation appears to be a significant list of quality dungeons). As such, the player population is still vitually extinct. For the nay sayers, I logged in at prime time and there are only 4 people looking for a group.

F2P does not start until the 9th, which is when I expect the influx of new players.

I found most groups were guild/static today as people leveled and ran new content.

I did PUG Hound, Shroud x 2 and the new battlefield in 3-4 hours play.


I have no problem paying $15 a month to play an MMO, however this launch has completely restricted my ability to test out new functionality, and has only confirmed that the population will remain limited in the new environment due to the dungeon availability. I know you need revenue, but players like me aren’t going to pay it until we get definitive proof that this new model is an improvement over the old one.

I think F2P is aimed at new players (with new characters) not returning vets.

After Korthos, Harbour and WW they should have enough TPs to buy STK (or have decided not to play).

After that we will see if they get out their CCs and buy (which is required for F2P to work).


Quite frankly, you have a histoy of dragging the populous along while falling short on expectations.

I hope that because new content releases will equate to more revenue that this will change under the F2P model.

We will have to wait and see....

[Vormaerin]

There are over a 100 dungeons that are open to the Free to play players. It is sort of inconvenient for the downgrading ex subscribers with high level characters, since most of the stuff above lvl 12 is part of an adventure pack, but its not catastrophic. A normal free to play player would not reach those levels without having had the chance to earn Turbine points through game play.

If you enjoy playing the game, you might just spend a little more time looking at your quest lists and exploring. Depending on how long you've been out of the game, you might be surprised at how many new quests are in various places.

But if you are just objecting to the fact that the "best" quests are in adventure packs, I think that is going to fall on deaf ears. The chain quests and special zones are the obvious thing to bundle into packs, because that is stuff people will actually buy. There are still some very popular quests in the free stuff.

[Vormaerin]

You should be able to buy some content with the ~1,750 points you have (as you have over 1,000 fav and 2+ years sub).


I think you had to have an active subscription before Monday to get those points. He probably got 250 or so for his favor level, but not the "thanks for sticking with us" subscriber bonuses. Since, you know, he didn't actually stick with the game.

[Tilliak]

I ran into the exact same experience. Even with the "guest passes" I don't see this changing much. It's going to come down to a point where the VIPs will be turning away F2Pers because they have run out of passes. And then the community is right back where it started.

Not only that, but the model is tilted towards not doing F2P. Ideally, this model would be great for the player that realizes that there simply isn't enough new content coming down the pipe fast enough to keep DDO interesting. Therefore, rather than having $15 automatically taken from the account every month, they just buy what they want for now and go forward. But realistically, you can't really do that an expect it to work out. Some of the higher level Adventure Packs are going to cost you far more than a $15 per month subscription. And yet the same problem still exists: You get these high level packs (either by purchasing the points or by going VIP) and you are going to end up running the same exact content over and over and over until you want to puke blood if you have to do the dungeon one more time.

Ultimately, this revamp was not what DDO needed and is not going to deliver the response that Turbine is hoping for. What DDO needed was to be redone, from the ground up, with a different setup to begin with. Anyone who has ever played the pen-n-paper game knows that you rarely tackle the same dungeon twice, let alone the countless times we've all done the same ones over and over again. They also know that there are generally more than one major city in a thriving world (and no, I still don't count Gianthold as a major city). Instead of outdoor areas being instanced, they should be paths to other places that actually give you a reason to go outside rather than to just do another dungeon. Instead of PvP being nothing more than lame bar room brawls, their should be factions where your favor actually counts for something. The harbor should have ships that actually go to other cities that are just as open and populated as Stormreach, not just loading you off to yet another instanced dungeon you've done a gazillion times.

And the "crafting system" is...well....a joke.

Unfortuantely, it was the lack of these simple concepts that kept DDO shackled with what it was to begin with. When I first heard that they were expanding the outdoor areas I was overjoyed. Then I was quickly disappointed when I saw that they were really just another instanced dungeon with different texture maps. Everything that has been done to DDO has been great...for about a week to a month...and that's it. Everything has been set to force DDO to somehow feel trapped and constrained to this one city. It's like a bad Twilight Zone episode.

[FlameofAngband]

I think you had to have an active subscription before Monday to get those points. He probably got 250 or so for his favor level, but not the "thanks for sticking with us" subscriber bonuses. Since, you know, he didn't actually stick with the game.

If he was in the latest beta and if he was smart he used his play money in the store... there's 500 TP. He's got a near (pre Unlimited) capped toon. I earned 400 TP from retroactive favor on a lvl 8 toon. Safe bet he should be looking at close to 1k TP to play with...even if not:

I disagree with OP on almost every point here. I too am a returning player and much prefer the option of using the store to open up certain parts of the game that I will actually play because once I do I don't need to pay for it again. Of course I am not naive enough to believe that Turbine would make all the best stuff free, they would have lost their entire subscriber base instantly. Look, bottom line: It's not a free game, it's free to play. All that means is you have the chance to play this game without subscribing. I don't understand where this sense of entitlement comes from in society. It's unfortunate.

[Tilliak]

I disagree with OP on almost every point here. I too am a returning player and much prefer the option of using the store to open up certain parts of the game that I will actually play because once I do I don't need to pay for it again. Of course I am not naive enough to believe that Turbine would make all the best stuff free, they would have lost their entire subscriber base instantly. Look, bottom line: It's not a free game, it's free to play. All that means is you have the chance to play this game without subscribing. I don't understand where this sense of entitlement comes from in society. It's unfortunate.

The point is that this new model helps to change nothing. The reason for the new model was because the user population was in the toilet. To increase the user population, Turbine comes up with this Free To Play model. The Free To Play model does not solve the old problem when the dungeon content is still locked out. The VIP player is still going to have the same problem of getting people to group up with because even though there are 6 million people playing, only 100 of them are subscribers or have purchased the content. The change in model solved nothing.

The only sense of entitlement here is the sense that if you are paying for an online game, or even playing an online game that is free, you should be able to play with the other people in the game.

[FlameofAngband]

I ran into the exact same experience. Even with the "guest passes" I don't see this changing much. It's going to come down to a point where the VIPs will be turning away F2Pers because they have run out of passes. And then the community is right back where it started.

Not only that, but the model is tilted towards not doing F2P. Ideally, this model would be great for the player that realizes that there simply isn't enough new content coming down the pipe fast enough to keep DDO interesting. Therefore, rather than having $15 automatically taken from the account every month, they just buy what they want for now and go forward. But realistically, you can't really do that an expect it to work out. Some of the higher level Adventure Packs are going to cost you far more than a $15 per month subscription. And yet the same problem still exists: You get these high level packs (either by purchasing the points or by going VIP) and you are going to end up running the same exact content over and over and over until you want to puke blood if you have to do the dungeon one more time.

Ultimately, this revamp was not what DDO needed and is not going to deliver the response that Turbine is hoping for. What DDO needed was to be redone, from the ground up, with a different setup to begin with. Anyone who has ever played the pen-n-paper game knows that you rarely tackle the same dungeon twice, let alone the countless times we've all done the same ones over and over again. They also know that there are generally more than one major city in a thriving world (and no, I still don't count Gianthold as a major city). Instead of outdoor areas being instanced, they should be paths to other places that actually give you a reason to go outside rather than to just do another dungeon. Instead of PvP being nothing more than lame bar room brawls, their should be factions where your favor actually counts for something. The harbor should have ships that actually go to other cities that are just as open and populated as Stormreach, not just loading you off to yet another instanced dungeon you've done a gazillion times.

And the "crafting system" is...well....a joke.

Unfortuantely, it was the lack of these simple concepts that kept DDO shackled with what it was to begin with. When I first heard that they were expanding the outdoor areas I was overjoyed. Then I was quickly disappointed when I saw that they were really just another instanced dungeon with different texture maps. Everything that has been done to DDO has been great...for about a week to a month...and that's it. Everything has been set to force DDO to somehow feel trapped and constrained to this one city. It's like a bad Twilight Zone episode.

You make better points than OP. I agree with a lot of what you are saying when comparing DDO to the table top experience. And how eventually even those who piecemeal the game will get bored running same content ad nausea. I guess the real question is: What is the lifespan of an MMO? At some point you just need to start over, not sure DDO is there just yet but time will tell.

[Vormaerin]

Not only that, but the model is tilted towards not doing F2P. Ideally, this model would be great for the player that realizes that there simply isn't enough new content coming down the pipe fast enough to keep DDO interesting. Therefore, rather than having $15 automatically taken from the account every month, they just buy what they want for now and go forward. But realistically, you can't really do that an expect it to work out. Some of the higher level Adventure Packs are going to cost you far more than a $15 per month subscription. And yet the same problem still exists: You get these high level packs (either by purchasing the points or by going VIP) and you are going to end up running the same exact content over and over and over until you want to puke blood if you have to do the dungeon one more time.



If you are going to play a lot then subscription is the way to go. Though there is an argument to be made that the upfront investment to buy the content is kind of like the LotRO lifetime subscription in some ways. Free to play is there to encourage casual players who want to play DDO occasionally. If you are playing more than once or twice a week, you are going to end up paying one way or another. Turbine isn't providing a charitable service here.

Most of my friends are subscribers. But there are others in our group who are unemployed or mainly play a different subscription game or just don't have time to play much. They are all now able to play with us because the game has an F2P option. They'll spend /some/ money on the game, but nothing like $15/month. That's what Turbine is looking for. A lot of additional part time players tossing in a few more bucks than they cost in bandwidth and operating expenses.

[Tilliak]

You make better points than OP. I agree with a lot of what you are saying when comparing DDO to the table top experience. And how eventually even those who piecemeal the game will get bored running same content ad nausea. I guess the real question is: What is the lifespan of an MMO? At some point you just need to start over, not sure DDO is there just yet but time will tell.

Not sure what the lifespan of an MMO should be. But look at games like Everquests or Anarchy Online. These are some of the oldest MMOs out there and with frequent infusions of new content, they stay up and running. But then again, neither of these MMOs took the idea of having literally everything that could ever be done in the entire game world take place under one city.

I mean, just from a realistic standpoint, if any city had as many things going wrong with it and the surrounding area that Stormreach has, nobody would live there!

[FlameofAngband]

The point is that this new model helps to change nothing. The reason for the new model was because the user population was in the toilet. To increase the user population, Turbine comes up with this Free To Play model. The Free To Play model does not solve the old problem when the dungeon content is still locked out. The VIP player is still going to have the same problem of getting people to group up with because even though there are 6 million people playing, only 100 of them are subscribers or have purchased the content. The change in model solved nothing.

The only sense of entitlement here is the sense that if you are paying for an online game, or even playing an online game that is free, you should be able to play with the other people in the game.

Yes, I see where there will be a huge gap between those VIPS trying to group with f2p'ers. That is a huge problem I agree. My comment on sense of entitlement was directed at what I see as someone expecting the f2p experience to be exactly like the VIP experience. That just isn't realistic. Again, I DO agree that there will be issues with the new players being able play WITH VIPs, not just along side them.

[Tilliak]

If you are going to play a lot then subscription is the way to go. Though there is an argument to be made that the upfront investment to buy the content is kind of like the LotRO lifetime subscription in some ways. Free to play is there to encourage casual players who want to play DDO occasionally. If you are playing more than once or twice a week, you are going to end up paying one way or another. Turbine isn't providing a charitable service here.

Most of my friends are subscribers. But there are others in our group who are unemployed or mainly play a different subscription game or just don't have time to play much. They are all now able to play with us because the game has an F2P option. They'll spend /some/ money on the game, but nothing like $15/month. That's what Turbine is looking for. A lot of additional part time players tossing in a few more bucks than they cost in bandwidth and operating expenses.

Even if you only play one night a week, you can easily spend upwards of $30 to $45 for mid to high level content with the current system just so you can have something new to do. Yet at the same time, only playing one night a week it's really hard to stomach the idea of paying $15 per month for something you really are not using that much. Therefore, these two options basically cancel out the casual player who is not going to be willing to do either one.

[FlameofAngband]

Not sure what the lifespan of an MMO should be. But look at games like Everquests or Anarchy Online. These are some of the oldest MMOs out there and with frequent infusions of new content, they stay up and running. But then again, neither of these MMOs took the idea of having literally everything that could ever be done in the entire game world take place under one city.

I mean, just from a realistic standpoint, if any city had as many things going wrong with it and the surrounding area that Stormreach has, nobody would live there!


I don't think there are a lot more MMO's to look at longevity wise then what you provided, they're like the 104 year old russian woman that smokes and drinks vodka everyday but keeps going strong. My point wasn't what the lifespan of an MMO should be, rather what it typically is. It is kind of hard to just keep adding wilderness to one city and expect a persistent "world" to continue to thrive past...oh say...three and half years. :snicker, snicker:

[Vormaerin]

Even if you only play one night a week, you can easily spend upwards of $30 to $45 for mid to high level content with the current system just so you can have something new to do. Yet at the same time, only playing one night a week it's really hard to stomach the idea of paying $15 per month for something you really are not using that much. Therefore, these two options basically cancel out the casual player who is not going to be willing to do either one.

Yeah, you can spend that much money, but over how long a time period? You certainly aren't spending it all at once. Unless you have someone to drag you along on a zergfest, just something like Delera's will take several play sessions. And there is tons of free content around that level range. Power levelers may just hit the chains and a few individual quests, but that's not the only way to play.

You have to reach about lvl 13 before you are mainly buying content. That's months of gaming if you don't have all the quests memorized. If you do four or five quests a week, it'll take 6 months to do the free content once. Unless you have the quest memorized, most of the long or very long quests take more time than a vet uses to do an entire quest chain.

Turbine runs three fairly different MMOs. Asheron's Call, DDO, and LotRO. They do different things. Why run three games if they are clones of each other? Some people love large landscapes and "random" mobs. I don't. After the initial exploration, they are pretty much just a nuisance to me. Besides, if you look at the map you'll notice that its not "all in one city". Its scattered all over a large landmass. We just aren't wasting time on travel. Its airships, caravans, sea travel, teleport, planeshift... and "you arrive". Voila.

Every game out there ends up with the players outstripping the content. You need a better argument than "doing the same stuff over and over sucks". Those people still playing ancient games like AC, AO, etc are certainly repeating content. Endgame play in WoW, LotRO, DDO, etc is all about repeating content. Nobody has "enough" content to play regularly and not repeat.

[Nessy1]

I played beta the first time around before DDO was released. I played it again for this re-release. One member of my group couldn't get past the fact that we wound up doing the same two quests we did when the game came out. The points are priced too high. There is not enough content in the F2P area, and the worst problem of all is there doesn't seem to be a clear idea as what you can get for free, as in a list, and what and when you might want to opt for premium content. Is the level cap 4? Another member of my group ditched the game because she thinks the Max 4 in the top right means when you reach level four you need to start paying up.

I know a bunch of loyalist will defend DDO until the end, and they are welcome to do that. The fact is if the loyalist were enough, they wouldn't need to do unlimited so they actually want new blood, new bodies, new players and from what I am seeing, no thanks. I am already paying for an MMORPG and there is not enough here to make me consider adding this as a once a week venture, certainly not enough to switch entirely.

[Vormaerin]

Is the level cap 4? Another member of my group ditched the game because she thinks the Max 4 in the top right means when you reach level four you need to start paying up.


More information could certainly be provided. It may even be on its way for the actual release of Free to play.... remember, you can't be playing 'free' right now unless you were a former subscriber.

Anyway, the cap is not 4. However, every 4 levels you need to get a "leveling sigil" to continue to advance if you are a free player. You can get these as quest rewards or you can just buy them in the store. You can certainly get to at least lvl 12 without paying a cent. There is more than enough free content for that. You could probably get higher if you repeat stuff. The Adventure packs are all popular content, so you may well want to buy them. But Gianthold is probably the first point where "must buy" enters the equation.

[darkrune]

How many potential subscribers do you think you missed due to this oversight?

This is EARLY release for subscribers and past subscribers... they didnt have an oversight it is working as intended.



I would like to note that we both picked our monks, however nowhere in the process did it clarify that we would not be able to use them in game without a fee (yes I recall this in the forums posts, but it was not clearly defined when making our selections).

Ummm... you read about it but didnt clearly understand... Reading comprehension FTW. This is clearly advertised


To our surprise, the good high level adventures such as the necropolis were unavailable, and only open via a fee. Even the classic Delara’s tomb was not an option.

Ok, with that we decided to load some lower level characters to see what we could do. Hey look a new low level quest near the bank….but it requires a pay to play. Ultimately we ended up running Red Fangs, which I have cleared more times than the earth has revolved around the sun. After completing that we came to a realization. All of the good quests, which I have paid a subscription fee for over the past couple of years now, where restricted for us. And the new content that would be interesting to us is also not available.

Again the whole point of this BUSINESS model is to... ummm... draw in business aka money. If turbine is dumb enough to make the best loved quests free then the whole point of the model is broken more than the abbot was.


Now, while I understand the desire to draw revenue, I have a couple major concerns. One, how am I to evaluate your new scaling dungeon capabilities when all you made available are simplistic soloable dungeons to test.

You are not... either you will resub or you wont they dont care about you... F2P is for new players that want to test the waters prior to sub'ing. You are NOT the target audience.


Second, while I may get to a point to subscribe again, the mass influx of new free to play members are useless to the population as they will not be able to group with players trying to do higher end questing. Though there may be an exponential growth in free to play characters, they will not have any access to your restricted content (which from my observation appears to be a significant list of quality dungeons). As such, the player population is still vitually extinct. For the nay sayers, I logged in at prime time and there are only 4 people looking for a group. Yes I could have posted my own invite and waited for responses, but that is a pretty pathetic number.
I have no problem paying $15 a month to play an MMO, however this launch has completely restricted my ability to test out new functionality, and has only confirmed that the population will remain limited in the new environment due to the dungeon availability. I know you need revenue, but players like me aren’t going to pay it until we get definitive proof that this new model is an improvement over the old one.

While I may still consider paying the 1 month subscription to see what the game has, you clearly have not made it obvious that the game is better than it was a month ago. Quite frankly, you have a histoy of dragging the populous along while falling short on expectations. In this case, you castrated our ability to even get into the new idiom by telling us we cant even participate in the new features. We are but two players, but I have to imagine we are not going to be the only ones turned off by this.


Blah blah blah... i cant decide what i should do and if i really can afford to pay $0.50 a day for entertainment. I want all the good stuff for free... waaaaaahhahahhhaaahahahaaa... somebody buy this dude a pacifier and some guest passes cause clearly he cant get over it...

Dude i am in no way shape or form a turbine supporter, in fact i normally am the complete opposite that questions every stupid thing they do, but to come on here a a F2P ex-vip and complain that you cant access the best material cause you have to pay for the upgrades is asanine.

Just my 2cp though i have a feeling that you might need more

Dark

[GunboatDiplomat]

Nice to see theres at least one doom thread full of cheese and whine :p. With all the other positive threads I thought the ddo community had polymorphed into tellytubbies....

[soupertc]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7p4mioawIA

[7-day_Trial_Monkey]

The point is that this new model helps to change nothing. The reason for the new model was because the user population was in the toilet. To increase the user population, Turbine comes up with this Free To Play model. The Free To Play model does not solve the old problem when the dungeon content is still locked out. The VIP player is still going to have the same problem of getting people to group up with because even though there are 6 million people playing, only 100 of them are subscribers or have purchased the content. The change in model solved nothing.

The only sense of entitlement here is the sense that if you are paying for an online game, or even playing an online game that is free, you should be able to play with the other people in the game.

Nonsense. You are arguing as if no F2P player will ever spend a penny in the DDO store. That makes no sense.

Think about it. If a F2P player sees that many VIP play a certain adventure pack, then they have the choice of making a 1 time buy, and then can play that area forever, without have spend any money on a monthly basis.

It is entirely disengenuous of you to insult Turbine while pretending that this will never hapen.

[Inkblack]

Things I would like to know that might address a piece of the OP's issues:
- A concise, but thorough, explanation of what you get with F2P. Maybe Turbine is scared that if they explain F2P to much, it will be a barrier to getting people to try it. I think this is a mistake, and something I have never liked about DDO's marketing. When we don't know what to expect, the optimistic side of us makes us expect more than Turbine delivers, and we end up disappointed.
- A concise, but thorough, explanation of F2P vs VIP. What I have seen some Turbine material that shows the differences in general terms, but it did not explain in any depth. The articles tend to highlight an aspect or two, but lack depth as well. From the DDO website, I couldn't find anything that highlights the differences yesterday at launch. Would be a good selling point to get people to convert from F2P.
- Prices, like a menu, where I can browse at work. Maybe this is still being finalized or something.

Just so I'm not whining for this entire post:
- Lag was MUCH better than before. I got some, but it was sporadic. Good job devs.

Ink

[lad9669]

I would guess that Turbine has a general Idea about how many F2P players boiught content on the beta so they have at least something to work with. I would also guess that it isn't goint to be static either.

[Phidius]

...
Second, while I may get to a point to subscribe again, the mass influx of new free to play members are useless to the population as they will not be able to group with players trying to do higher end questing. Though there may be an exponential growth in free to play characters, they will not have any access to your restricted content (which from my observation appears to be a significant list of quality dungeons). As such, the player population is still vitually extinct. For the nay sayers, I logged in at prime time and there are only 4 people looking for a group. Yes I could have posted my own invite and waited for responses, but that is a pretty pathetic number.
I have no problem paying $15 a month to play an MMO, however this launch has completely restricted my ability to test out new functionality, and has only confirmed that the population will remain limited in the new environment due to the dungeon availability. I know you need revenue, but players like me aren’t going to pay it until we get definitive proof that this new model is an improvement over the old one.
...

I saw the same thing last night on Sarlona - hordes of players standing around the portal to the Battlefield, yet only a few LFMs... and those were for low level quests.

I was in a group of 1-4 people all night, and had absolutely no desire to increase the difficulty of the quest by bringing in unknown PUGgers. As we get more experienced in the quests, perhaps we'll be more generous and help other people get their completion - only time will tell.

I'm hoping Turbine will re-evaluate their decision to discourage grouping in favor of making it easier for people to solo/short-man stuff, but in the end I don't really care as I have always prefered to solo/short man.

My motiviation for doing so, however, has just been strengthened.

[FlameofAngband]

If you made a much effort to read about it as you do to write about it you wouldn't need to write about it.

Dear turbine,

I was looking to freeload off you but you haven't given me everything I want for free.:mad:

But it has been worth it because I now know my brother slightly better than before.

yours graspingly,

DV

/signed

[Mindspat]

For the nay sayers, I logged in at prime time and there are only 4 people looking for a group.


Last night I noticed only 3 lfm's listed. I then checked the WHO panel and was surprised at what I saw. It consisted of roughly 800-1000 players with about 90% of them showing as a member of a group!

keep in mind that if someone is set to annonymous they will not show in the WHO panel.

moral of the story - be proactive when trying to accomplish something; ie, create your own lfm if one isn't listed.

[dv8maker123]

Some interesting responses, inclusive of some constructive feedback. I’ll respond to a couple of the critical comments and try to put them in a different perspective (after all, I was completely hammered when I wrote this last night). There were several others that were well written and though out, so while I do appreciate the retorts, I think the individuals clearly made their arguments and thus don’t require more dialogue.

First off, the monk issue. No it is not a reading comprehension issue. I read the notes on that a couple months back. As I recall at the time the indicated that monks and warforged were not going to be playable for free. I didn’t pay too much to the EU postings subsequent to that as I had other things to do with my time. Since it was still going through the whole beta process I had no idea what changes were made or not. So, when I went to log into the game and saw it as and selectable character I was under the impression that it was now playable. I would have selected some of my WF as well if they were my priority characters. My suggestion to Turbine is to add a comment on the selection window that indicates which characters will be playable. Yes this may be redundant since they posted the data on the forums, but not every reads every single post on the forums. And no I did not participate in the beta. I beta tested the original and they didn’t listen to half of what we said. As well, in this case I did not want to spend my time working through a beta process and preferred to wait for a completed product.

Read more and whine less/trying to freeload off of Turbine. Again, there are hundreds of posts on the forums going back and forth on EU and the issues with DDO. I eventually grew tired of reading them all. I did read through the release notes quickly and was intrigued by a number of the changes being made, which is why I went to log back into the game in the first place. My issue wasn’t simply that my favorite quests were not available (though that was certainly disappointing), it was also that I had no idea which quests I could run because nothing was flagged in the game. I ran around for half an hour trying to find one dungeon I could run with my brother, and each time we only found out we hit a dead end when we actually tried to enter the instance. It was extremely aggravating. My suggestion here, add a note in the quest log or in the favor screen that indicates which quests are F2P and which require purchase. That way I can at least filter out my options prior to running all over the place.

I certainly expected content to be locked to free players as that is a primary incentive for players to pay Turbine in a F2P model. I was just surprised at all the ones they chose and how it really constricted what I wanted to test out (had they clearly indicated what was available to me in the game that expectation level would have been very different). And, I make quite a bit of money, so I’m not all that worried about $15. For me it is more the principle of giving Turbine more of my cash without seeing evidence of its value. I’m a stickler for that, I actually choose where I invest my time and earnings rather than just randomly throwing it out the window. So, due to my past experiences with Turbine I didn’t want to simply pay them for a 1 night trial run. One last opinion (though I suspect many will flame it), with how long it took Turbine to release new content I would say they owe the vets some leeway on the content side. In my eyes they freeloaded off of the paying subscribers for far too long.

Population base/grouping. Yes I know I can start my own group. That was simply an observation on the number of players online and in the grouping window during prime time. It simply led me to realize that those figures, combined with limited dungeon access for F2P players is going to result in a significant grouping problem. Turbine can assume all it wants that the F2P folks are going to get to level 10 and buy all of the content, but I’m not that optimistic.

My post was more or less a drunken rant due to a disappointing experience with retrying the game under the new model. Some people shared similar experiences, others did not. Sure if I read hours of forum posts a good deal of the information was there, but that’s not how I chose to spend my free time. I think some of the pertinent data elements need to be flagged in the game. And I’m still not convinced that this model will address the concerns the players have been voicing over the past year. At the end of the day, it’s a game, and if I don’t like it I walk away (again). My comments are my opinions, and I don’t expect anyone to agree with all of them (if any). Take them for what you will.

[Nessy1]

First off, you are incorrect. I have never been a subscriber. You don't have to be a subscriber to be in the headstart. That's a fact. I have never given Turbine any money for this game. I have been a beta player twice. I wound up playing the same quests I was playing in 2005 here in 2009. Now for some that might seem typical but it's not. There are a lot of games that released enough new content where your starting location and quests are not actually the same as if you played with the launch.

Secondly, I have money. It's finite and so is my time, so I am download this game to see if it would be worth my time and my money, keeping in mind that after the first beta, I decided it wasn't. So is there enough of a change to warrant a change in my decision. Not that I can see. I am still playing the same mediocre content I played before which is so exact to the previous experience that we lost one of our group members after the third quest as he remember it that long ago.

Third, the information on F2P is nothing but a bunch of sound bites written by people with marketing degrees. There is no solid, actual information on the website, no one is goign to spend hours filtering and searching forums for this stuff. It needs to be upfront. Next week, is too late. Beta players, and there are again, for those who refuse to acknowledge this, a number of us who played the beta that were NEVER subscribers. Next week is too late. It’s already going around that the point costs are too high. That after years of work DDO is the same as it ever was and the change is so miniscule or tied to premium content that it’s not even worth looking at.

DDO loyalist can roll their eyes, accuse people of not wanting to pay for games. Go ahead, knock yourself out doing it. The game I am playing, which is not WoW by the way, is not in such a desperate state that they are trying to lure in more players with promised free content that falls flat.

Thank you for the information about the level system. It’s good information to know that should been clear to begin with. It’s too late for her, the one that was worried the cap for free was 4. She’s no longer interested in the game. It isn’t really a huge loss to me if this game doesn’t recover like it wants to, and judging from some of the community members, they want to keep it the same and go down with the ship. That’s fine. Your game is being rejected by other online gaming communities, rejected even though it’s free and due to some information that just isn’t true. But hey, if Turbine isn't more isn’t interested in correcting that misinformation and if the DDO community’s response to that is go take a hike, again, not my loss.

[JakLee7]

Wow Nessy - neg 1 for you!
if I could that is.

No point in saying DDO is a sinking ship, just a different model; a change to the way the game is handled. The F2P boat is leaving the harbor, weather you want to admit it or not. You will see in the next 3-5 years a MASSIVE swing towards this model as the incentive to do so is great (potentially) for the company creating the game. Initially many people will flock to this kind of service as well as it allows you to "vote" with your dollar as to the things you want and don't want.

I forsee a backlash against the F2P model after that with an eventual balance between the two. I do applaud Turbine though for their effort in trying this model out with DDO. It has the potential to truely make this game a leader on the forefront of the change.

I want to make a few point here though;
1. Some of the information/restrictions could & should be clearer - in fact your idea for an easy comprehensive list of all the free quests would go A LONG WAY towards easing people into what they can & can't play.
2. Leveling sigils; I made a post about this back in beta; but I will reiterate it here again - I think the first (level 4) should be static & given as an end reward to a free quest with an explaination of how to use it, when to use it, why you use it. A simple how to would really curb alot of the confusion, more so if they also stress you cannot find the level 8 sigil in a static location.
3. No game is perfect....we all know this. But don't bash out game, and surely don't say your un-named game is much better. YOU may enjoy your game more, others here may hate it. That doesn't mean the game is bad by any measure, it's a preference. So I wish you the best on your unamed ube3r gaym!!!11 I hope you try again later, as DDO will be here & maybe it will be different then.

[Nessy1]

Wow Nessy - neg 1 for you!
if I could that is.

No point in saying DDO is a sinking ship, just a different model; a change to the way the game is handled. The F2P boat is leaving the harbor, weather you want to admit it or not. You will see in the next 3-5 years a MASSIVE swing towards this model as the incentive to do so is great (potentially) for the company creating the game. Initially many people will flock to this kind of service as well as it allows you to "vote" with your dollar as to the things you want and don't want.

I forsee a backlash against the F2P model after that with an eventual balance between the two. I do applaud Turbine though for their effort in trying this model out with DDO. It has the potential to truely make this game a leader on the forefront of the change.

I want to make a few point here though;
1. Some of the information/restrictions could & should be clearer - in fact your idea for an easy comprehensive list of all the free quests would go A LONG WAY towards easing people into what they can & can't play.
2. Leveling sigils; I made a post about this back in beta; but I will reiterate it here again - I think the first (level 4) should be static & given as an end reward to a free quest with an explaination of how to use it, when to use it, why you use it. A simple how to would really curb alot of the confusion, more so if they also stress you cannot find the level 8 sigil in a static location.
3. No game is perfect....we all know this. But don't bash out game, and surely don't say your un-named game is much better. YOU may enjoy your game more, others here may hate it. That doesn't mean the game is bad by any measure, it's a preference. So I wish you the best on your unamed ube3r gaym!!!11 I hope you try again later, as DDO will be here & maybe it will be different then.

You want to neg me for putting words into my mouth? I never said my unnamed game was better, I said I chose it over DDO for the reasons given. I wasn't the only one. It is no secret the DDO is not doing well. The number support that position. This was not some oh I have a great idea this could turn out great approach, this was a hey, we need more players because what we are doing is not working approach. The numbers support that. I didn't just make it up. I never said the game has to be perfect but after a few years you'd think there would be more to it. Try again.

[Roberto]

I wound up playing the same quests I was playing in 2005 here in 2009. Now for some that might seem typical but it's not. There are a lot of games that released enough new content where your starting location and quests are not actually the same as if you played with the launch.

Actually, that's been my experience with all of Turbine's games - Asheron's Call, Asheron's Call 2, DDO, and LOTRO. AC added a new starter area and race with the last expansion, but the old starter areas/races/quests are still there. Although LOTRO streamlined the starter experience recently, you still do the same intro as when the game lauched.

It's not unreasonable to expect the same from DDO.

[Roberto]

It is no secret the DDO is not doing well. The number support that position.

Which numbers? Turbine doesn't publish subscription numbers.

[Oreg]

It continues to be beyond my understanding why anyone would go ftp unless you were looking for a very, very casual gaming experience. The day I saw that Delera's was a paid quest series I knew that ftp was just another name like "free 10 day trial", a week to 10 day long stepping stone, if you will, until either a) the addiction kicks in and you go VIP or b) you quit.

[Nessy1]

Which numbers? Turbine doesn't publish subscription numbers.

There are estimate that DDO is somewhere around 30k mark which is very low when other games in that area would be EQ1, which has been around forever, which I did play back in thet day.

Some repeat in newbie areas are fine, but seriousy, we did the exact same quests in the exact same order we did years ago without much of a deviation at all. Vanguard, Everquest 1 and 2, City of Heroes, Champions Online.. I've played a lot of games, paid for many of them, (not all some were beta) some of them were varied early on, didn't have you start out and perform the same three quests in the same order like that. It was like Deja Vu. I can't believe I even remember from that long ago.

Sinking ship was probably too harsh of a description. I am just amazed that there is so much hostility in the community against criticism for a new system on an old game that tries to market itself as a great option for someone who wants to play DDO just once in awhile. I can't get anyone to even look at the game for more than an hour with me, and I am the one who is actually pitching it. Despite popular belief, I don't hate the game. It's not worth 15 dollars or whatever it is they want for the subcription part to me (this is completely subjective of course, not a rule). I think the point system is too expensive, and I think information on the free system is lacking.

I think it is a mistake to think DDO went F2P because the original pay method was doing so great that they thought they would just mix it up a bit. I don't think they are getting the revenue they were expecting or wanting and this is an effort to fix that.

I am all for niche games. I've played DnD for years since 1st but mostly 2nd edition. But when the game is getting hammered in other gaming communities even though its free, there is something seriously wrong with the information going out.

But hey not to worry, I'll pass on the level 4 information in the other camps and let them continue as is.

[DoctorBadWolf]

I certainly expected content to be locked to free players as that is a primary incentive for players to pay Turbine in a F2P model. I was just surprised at all the ones they chose and how it really constricted what I wanted to test out (had they clearly indicated what was available to me in the game that expectation level would have been very different).



Although I disagree with you on most points, and am a proponent of the f2p model, I have to say that the restricted content f2p model is not one I have huge confidence in. Other f2p games use a convenience/vanity items/account options model, and in general, I think that's a much better system. Perhaps if new content that fits the criteria for purchased content was exclusively pay to play, and older content could be unlocked as quest rewards, with frequency somewhat akin to the leveling sigils, I would have more confidence, but I know that people are will to spend tons of money on making their character look cool, having a useless but fun pet, customizing the look of gear, friend teleporters, etc, while I'm not sure how many people, comparitively, will be willing to pay for quests.

Just my 2 copper.

[Oreg]

I think it is a mistake to think DDO went F2P because the original pay method was doing so great that they thought they would just mix it up a bit.



Bingo. They didn't. It went FtP so that a large group of people would try it who normally wouldn't have because of its cost. Some of whom will switch to VIP subscriptions because they love it. Others will pay to play while others will get frustrated with the limited amount of free content and quit. What do they all have in common? They weren't playing before - It's what you do with an existing brand that you want to reintroduce.

[GunboatDiplomat]

It’s already going around that the point costs are too high. That after years of work DDO is the same as it ever was and the change is so miniscule or tied to premium content that it’s not even worth looking at.

Nessy, your posts ae so bitter they burn my eyes even to cut out this small part. Nonethless in this pool of vitriol you make two points worth responding to.

First, it struck me too that the point cost for some items was too high., at least higher than I was willing to pay. But this is a first offering! The magic of the market will operate. If items arent selling the price will lower.

Second off its a testament to the the strengths of this game that despite the many changes it remains the same in core respects. Its a difficult game with a steep learning curve. Most of the changes since beta have been to ameliorate that, make it more accessible and provide new content. You don't seem to have liked the original game. Fine. its not for you. Personally im glad it hasn't changed so much you now like it, becauase to my mind it is very different indeed to the other games you mention, which are fun for a little bit but i haven't gone back to.

If people are enjoying the content of DDO, as i did when i started playing in 2006, and its for free, they will not mind paying a few bucks for extar features and adventure packs such as STK. And maybe going vip. Maybe the business model will work, maybe it won't.

So I'm sorry you don't like this game. Fine, don't play it. And don't expect to gain any friends on the forums by coming on whinging about how greedy turbine is and how the game sucks.

[TheJusticar]

...

Very well put. These have been my concerns since they announced F2P. I, too, logged in to beta with my capped toons and much to my displeasure I, too, felt jailed out of content -- content that I had already run a million times. While I understand the need for more avenues for revenue, the fact is that other than the few kids w/ mommy's credit card and no judgment, most people will get quickly annoyed by the constant nickel and dime content access. So, I complained and basically the response was, "Go VIP or go home." This attitude is not only wrong-headed, but also very rude. Again, if this was a subscription-only game, I'd understand; however, Turbine has made a fanfare about the fact that this game is now "free to play." It's not. No matter how much fanbois would like to believe it and say it, it's not a true F2P. Look at RoM, you can access every nook and cranny of the content w/o paying a dime. Not saying RoM is a good game (I personally don't like it), but it delivers what it promises. Turbine does not, IMO. It promises F2P but delivers N&D2P (Nickel and Dime To Play). Most players willing to give this game a try will soon realize this and leave and never look back. I'm sure we'll see a flod of F2P players come Sep 9th, however, I suspect the brunt of it will be gone 3-4 weeks later. I've been wrong before, but if their experience with the game (with respect of content limitations) is so poor as it was for me as F2P, I don't see players sticking around.

Godspeed.

[Nessy1]

So I'm sorry you don't like this game. Fine, don't play it. And don't expect to gain any friends on the forums by coming on whinging about how greedy turbine is and how the game sucks.

Well you are not sorry so why even say so? I don't think Turbine is greedy as a company as a whole, as i pay them for one of myother games. I never said the game sucks. Maybe the bitterness you are seeing is the filter you are using to make up words as you read my posts. I didn't come here to get all cozy with DDO community. I came here to get information because it's THAT lacking. I got what I needed. Thank you.

[TheJusticar]

Well you are not sorry so why even say so? I don't think Turbine is greedy as a company as a whole, as i pay them for one of myother games. I never said the game sucks. Maybe the bitterness you are seeing is the filter you are using to make up words as you read my posts. I didn't come here to get all cozy with DDO community. I came here to get information because it's THAT lacking. I got what I needed. Thank you.

Don't bother, dude. That is exactly the very RUDE and close-minded response that is very unhelpful to people bringing up very REAL and important issues. I hope they could see that kind of response only does one thing, drive people away from posting their ideas and concerns about the game. And making this a very nasty community overall.

Godspeed.

[GunboatDiplomat]

Well you are not sorry so why even say so? I don't think Turbine is greedy as a company as a whole, as i pay them for one of myother games. I never said the game sucks. Maybe the bitterness you are seeing is the filter you are using to make up words as you read my posts. I didn't come here to get all cozy with DDO community. I came here to get information because it's THAT lacking. I got what I needed. Thank you.

I'm pretty far from being a fanboi for Turbine myself. But your posts read the way an agent provocateur would write. And you clearly have no no love for the original game or as it is now. Your guff about 'lack of information' is entirely disingenuous - and totally irrelevant for most who enjoy the game. You find out as you you along and it will change as the market does.

Sorry thats not in a nice list they way you'd like. Try the ddo wiki (which i love). They have one.

[DoctorBadWolf]

It continues to be beyond my understanding why anyone would go ftp unless you were looking for a very, very casual gaming experience. The day I saw that Delera's was a paid quest series I knew that ftp was just another name like "free 10 day trial", a week to 10 day long stepping stone, if you will, until either a) the addiction kicks in and you go VIP or b) you quit.

Well, there are plenty of people who've already decided to just buy content. So there's that. Also, for new players, you won't be running out of free content in two weeks, unless someone who knows the quests is running you through. The benefit to going f2p, and buying content, is that you have that content no matter what. If you're broke for a few months, and can't spend any money on the game, you still have that content, whereas a VIP has only the free stuff if they can't pay their sub for a while. Whether that benefit is worthwhile is determined by factors that change from person to person, but people will be spending money without subscribing.

[Glockduck]

Are you kidding?

It is $15 a month dude. You can either pay the small fee or not. You sound like one of so many people in the US today. Just exactly what do you think your 'Entitled' to?

You want the best service, you want the premium package, you want someone to cater to you, and you dont want to pay a thing for it.

I see it every day in my chosen profession. Frankly, I am hardend to it.

News flash for you.

World of Warcraft has over 10 million subscribers. Over 100 servers with populations of over 5,000 people at peak times. Guess what.... you run out of things to do as well. You run the same quests/raids/ dungeons over and over and over. You farm the same areas for mats...over and over and over again. And that is the largest MMORPG in the world today. I would love to see what this game could do with a fraction of the base, WOW has. Love it or hate it, they did something right.


This game lacks a population. The FTP concept will help with that. Try the game out, play if for a few hours, if you like it, Subscribe! If you dont, go try something else.

But dont spend 30 mins writing a post, that is nothing but your whine and cheese fest about, how you played the game for so long, stoped paying for the ability to play, and now cant believe that you cant play what you want....for FREE!

Dude, Go to McDonald's and complain to them about all the money you spent there over the years on food you purchased and consumed, and let them know how miffed you are that they wont give you anything free to eat today. See what that will get you.

[GunboatDiplomat]

Don't bother, dude. That is exactly the very RUDE and close-minded response that is very unhelpful to people bringing up very REAL and important issues. I hope they could see that kind of response only does one thing, drive people away from posting their ideas and concerns about the game. And making this a very nasty community overall.

Godspeed.

I pride myself in always being polite, no matter the provocation. But golly, 'nasty community overall?' The one thing the ddo community is well known for (aside from its tinyness :p) is its relative maturity. Well given the general rudeness and pettiness of internet forums anyhow.

Two words buddy:

Agent.
Provocateur.

Wow, some other games might actually be worried. Wow, maybe ddo f2p might have a chance...

[TheJusticar]

Are you kidding?

It is $15 a month dude. You can either pay the small fee or not. You sound like one of so many people in the US today. Just exactly what do you think your 'Entitled' to?


This has nothing to do with a sense of entitlement. It has to do with they advertising a F2P game and delivering something that is not.



You want the best service, you want the premium package, you want someone to cater to you, and you dont want to pay a thing for it.

[...]

World of Warcraft has over 10 million subscribers. [blah]


Non sequitur.


News flash for you.




This game lacks a population. The FTP concept will help with that. Try the game out, play if for a few hours, if you like it, Subscribe! If you dont, go try something else.


Exactly what I just wrote about. It's rude and self-contradictory. Why drive away potential subscribers by level 4? It's F2P might as well let them truly experience the game. Let them get hooked into it. What good are players (even if there are 5 million of them) if they can't go past lvl4 or run most of the content?



But dont spend 30 mins writing a post, that is nothing but your whine and cheese fest about, how you played the game for so long, stoped paying for the ability to play, and now cant believe that you cant play what you want....for FREE!


How about you toning down your nasty attitude?




Dude, Go to McDonald's and complain to them about all the money you spent there over the years on food you purchased and consumed, and let them know how miffed you are that they wont give you anything free to eat today. See what that will get you.


Strawman argument and non sequitur.

[JakLee7]

Nessy, your posts ae so bitter they burn my eyes even to cut out this small part. <snip>So I'm sorry you don't like this game. Fine, don't play it. And don't expect to gain any friends on the forums by coming on whinging about how greedy turbine is and how the game sucks.

Thx GBD - that was much more elequent than I posted, but that is what I meant to say, lol

[TheJusticar]

I pride myself in always being polite, no matter the provocation. But golly, 'nasty community overall?' The one thing the ddo community is well known for (aside from its tinyness :p) is its relative maturity. Well given the general rudeness and pettiness of internet forums anyhow.

Two words buddy:

Agent.
Provocateur.

Wow, some other games might actually be worried. Wow, maybe ddo f2p might have a chance...

Dunno about other game's communities (except RoM and the unofficial GW forums), but we're (I include myself) not really that much better than they are. People constantly tell other people to go eff themselves if they bring an issue. They get ad hominems attacked, thread hijacked, people priding themselves as to how ewber they are and childish immature rivalries ... I personally don't think we, as community, are as friendly as you seem to think. Who cares how bad or rough or rude other fora are, I care about is the community I belong to, which is to say this.

Godspeed.

[Visty]

This has nothing to do with a sense of entitlement. It has to do with they advertising a F2P game and delivering something that is not.

it is ftp
you can play the whole game without spending a penny

[dv8maker123]

Why write a 30 minute post, because I had an opinion and felt like expressing on the forum that was set up for such discussions. Cost to me, nothing, and resulted in some interesting dialogue regarding the games direction. Why not just pay the $15, I addressed that in my second post of this thread. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me. I logged in to see if the new game was worth paying for again. Turbine has gotten plenty of my money with long periods of no new content so I want to see if the changes warranted paying them more. Simple as that. Can I afford $15 a month, easily, but I don't want to pay for ****. If that's an American sentiment then thank you.

I have no sense of entitlement for the F2P content, just expectations that weren't met since the in game documentation regarding the changes are insufficient. If I liked the game during my trial run I would have paid for it. I have no intention of handcuffing myself by playing a F2P game where I have huge gameplay restrictions. Perhaps they should have offered a free week's welcome back period to vets rather than an early launch, as that would have more suited what I was looking to do. I liked the game back in the day, but have always felt that Turbine fell short of bringing a D&D game to the level of greatness it deserves. I don't want to see the game fail, but nor do I want to **** away more cash just to find out it's the same old same old. I'd rather go buy a nice bottle of Cab Savignon.

[TheJusticar]

it is ftp
you can play the whole game without spending a penny

Please explain. Thx.

[TheJusticar]

Why write a 30 minute post, because I had an opinion and felt like expressing on the forum that was set up for such discussions. Cost to me, nothing, and resulted in some interesting dialogue regarding the games direction. Why not just pay the $15, I addressed that in my second post of this thread. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me. I logged in to see if the new game was worth paying for again. Turbine has gotten plenty of my money with long periods of no new content so I want to see if the changes warranted paying them more. Simple as that. Can I afford $15 a month, easily, but I don't want to pay for ****. If that's an American sentiment then thank you.

I have no sense of entitlement for the F2P content, just expectations that weren't met since the in game documentation regarding the changes are insufficient. If I liked the game during my trial run I would have paid for it. I have no intention of handcuffing myself by playing a F2P game where I have huge gameplay restrictions. Perhaps they should have offered a free week's welcome back period to vets rather than an early launch, as that would have more suited what I was looking to do. I liked the game back in the day, but have always felt that Turbine fell short of bringing a D&D game to the level of greatness it deserves. I don't want to see the game fail, but nor do I want to **** away more cash just to find out it's the same old same old. I'd rather go buy a nice bottle of Cab Savignon.

/signed.

Not that you care, but this deserves good rep.

Godspeed.

[Visty]

Please explain. Thx.

what to explain?
you can unlock all things in the shop via turbine points
those you get via favor

yes, it is a grind, a **** big one but you dont have to pay anything besides youre internet connection to do it

[Hafeal]

- Prices, like a menu, where I can browse at work. Maybe this is still being finalized or something.

Try this: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=192458
and leave some rep if you like it. :)


My suggestion to Turbine is to add a comment on the selection window that indicates which characters will be playable ... My suggestion here, add a note in the quest log or in the favor screen that indicates which quests are F2P and which require purchase. That way I can at least filter out my options prior to running all over the place.

Good, constructive points amid loads of other words and in the wrong forum. Might I suggest that these specific comments would be good for the Suggestions forum.


And, I make quite a bit of money, so I’m not all that worried about $15. For me it is more the principle of giving Turbine more of my cash without seeing evidence of its value.

Yeah, right, if you have to say it ... perhaps the pittance of $15 would have been worth a month if you were just "checking out the value." Of course, by trying f2p I guess you deduce the value of being VIP.


So, due to my past experiences with Turbine

What did they do? Sue you? Yell at your mother? ;)


One last opinion (though I suspect many will flame it), with how long it took Turbine to release new content I would say they owe the vets some leeway on the content side. In my eyes they freeloaded off of the paying subscribers for far too long.

Well, for having read the forums, miss a little, miss a lot:
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=196705



You want to neg me for putting words into my mouth? I never said my unnamed game was better, I said I chose it over DDO for the reasons given. I wasn't the only one. It is no secret the DDO is not doing well. The number support that position. This was not some oh I have a great idea this could turn out great approach, this was a hey, we need more players because what we are doing is not working approach. The numbers support that. I didn't just make it up. I never said the game has to be perfect but after a few years you'd think there would be more to it. Try again.


There are estimate that DDO is somewhere around 30k mark

LOL. Show a legitimate source. If you read the lawsuit though, you can deduce that sub numbers are higher or the money which Turbine has spent on this game would not have been spent. Period.


I can't get anyone to even look at the game for more than an hour with me, and I am the one who is actually pitching it.

Maybe you should re-evaluate your approach. I think some of your sales skills could use some honing as well. ;)


Despite popular belief, I don't hate the game.

and you don't love it ... or even like it ... you're just bored and it was free to try ...



But when the game is getting hammered in other gaming communities even though its free, there is something seriously wrong with the information going out.

Because people are actually taking notice and paying attention, I would expect nothing less than a little defensive posturing from people like the game they are playing. It heartens me to know people are worried enough about DDO to actually want to criticize it on other gaming forums. :cool:

[TheJusticar]

what to explain?
you can unlock all things in the shop via turbine points
those you get via favor

yes, it is a grind, a **** big one but you dont have to pay anything besides youre internet connection to do it

Right. That's a very narrow and pedantic definition. When people (and myself) say/hear F2P it's meant by industry "standard" (i.e. no restrictions of any kind just pay for fluff/convenience purchases) play as much or as little as you want w/o having to engage in a mega grind of epic proportions just to unlock more content to grind in epic proportions :)

Godspeed.

[dv8maker123]

With regard to unlocking via points rewarded for favor, I have over 1900 favor on my main and all that really got me was about 250 points. I don't think I'm unlocking much with that.

And nah, they didn't yell at my mom. She would have given them far more than they could handle if they had :)

[Visty]

With regard to unlocking via points rewarded for favor, I have over 1900 favor on my main and all that really got me was about 250 points. I don't think I'm unlocking much with that.

And nah, they didn't yell at my mom. She would have given them far more than then could handle if they had :)

its about 10tp per 100 favor not counting the accountwide benchmarks

to get alot of tp you need to run favor on alot of chars, but it is free
totally


Right. That's a very narrow and pedantic definition. When people (and myself) say/hear F2P it's meant by industry "standard" (i.e. no restrictions of any kind just pay for fluff/convenience purchases) play as much or as little as you want w/o having to engage in a mega grind of epic proportions just to unlock more content to grind in epic proportions
well, maybe the industry ''standard'' isnt the standart anymore
and i bet those other f2p games you mention you have to pay something like too
give some examples plz

[captain1z]

What the F2P model lacks is the ability to reasonably experience content for free. What they should offer is a guest pass as a reward in the mail for the 1st time you complete a quest chain on hard. For example:


WaterWorks on hard gives 9 hr pass to STK
STK gives pass for Tangleroot
Tangleroot gives pass to greymoon
Greymoon gives pass to CO6
CO6 gives pass to VONs
Vons gives a pass to Gianthold
Gianthold gives pass to meridia
meridia gives a pass to plane of shavarath


In this way you can potentially experience the best parts of the game but only for 9hrs and you have to complete it on hard in order to get the pass to the next series. Its just enough to wet the appetite and if you want unlimited access, well, you know what you gotta do.

[Oreg]

What the F2P model lacks is the ability to reasonably experience content for free. What they should offer is a guest pass as a reward in the mail for the 1st time you complete a quest chain on hard. For example:


/snipped


In this way you can potentially experience the best parts of the game but only for 9hrs and you have to complete it on hard in order to get the pass to the next series. Its just enough to wet the appetite and if you want unlimited access, well, you know what you gotta do.

Interesting concept.