Attack Speed Normalization Proposal

[Xionanx]

Basis for proposed changes: Borror0's suggested change quoted by Eladrin (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=2305779#post2305779) My suggestion in here (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=2339780#post2339780) and My suggestion here (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2381121&postcount=22)

Currently DDO suffers from an imbalance in attack speed across weapon styles and base attack bonus progression. As a person can see referencing Cforce's Attack Speed Index (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2055277&postcount=1) almost every weapon style in the game has a different attack speed. A person can also see that progression from BAB 14 to 15 actually results in a loss of attack speed, an issue players have long voice thier dissatisfaction over.

Under my proposed system, which I will outline below, players will have an equal attack speed across ALL weapon styles. Players will also recieve a gradual attack speed increase as they level, resulting in an overall gain in speed as a result of leveling rather then a loss.

The proposed changes are as follows:
Base all combat on a 4 Swing chain - From level 1 to 20 all characters will have a 4 swing chain regardless of combat style.
The 4 Swing chain across all styles should complete in exactly the same amount of time; a "base" time of 3 seconds.
Increasing BAB will grant a 1.25% increase in attack speed per point of BAB for a net attack speed increase of 25% at BAB 20.
The BAB Speed Increase will be counted as Inherent in relation to other attack speed increases allowing them to stack.
Two Weapon Fighting will grant a 25% attack speed increase counted as "Circumstance"
The Improved Two Weapon Fighting and Greater Two Weapon Fighting feats will both grant a stacking 25% attack speed increase counted as "Feat"
The available attack speed increases would then be: Enhancement (Haste/Items), Insight (Prestige/Class/Items), Inherent (BAB), Circumstance (TWF Style), Feat (ITWF/GTWF)

Upon first reading the above changes I expect the initial reaction to be that those changes would make players overpowered because of all the different attack speed increases. However once you look at the actual numerical effects you'll see this serves to reduce the power of the TWF styles while at the same time increasing the power of the other styles. Allow me to demonstrate how this would play out under my proposals.

A character with 0 BAB wielding a One Handed or Two Handed weapon would recieve exactly 80 Attacks per minute. 4 Attacks Per 3 Seconds, 60 Seconds in a Minute, 20 "blocks" of 3 seconds, 20 x 4 = 80 Attacks Per minute.

As a character's BAB increases in 1.25% increments, thier overall attacks per minute Increase:
BAB 0 = 80 Attacks Per Minute
BAB 9 = 89 Attacks Per Minute
BAB 14 = 94 Attacks Per Minute
BAB 16 = 96 Attacks Per Minute
BAB 20 = 100 Attacks Per Minute

Compared to the current progression that a One Handed or Two Handed user would see:
BAB 0 = 78 Attacks Per Minute One Handed
BAB 9 = 102 Attacks Per Minute One Handed
BAB 14 = 93 Attacks Per Minute One Handed
BAB 16 = 89 Attacks Per Minute One Handed

BAB 0 = 60 to 83 Depending on Weapon
BAB 9 = 86 to 96 Depending on Weapon
BAB 14 = 84 to 92 Depending on Weapon
BAB 16 = 76 to 84 Depending on Weapon

Clearly under my proposed changes One Handed and Two Handed attackers at being helped and given a boost as their BAB increases rather then having thier attack speed REDUCED as thier BAB increases.

Now lets see how my changes effects Two Weapon Fighting: The simple act of equiping a second weapon under my proposed changes would grant a 25% Circumstance bonus in attack speed.

BAB 0 = 80 Main 20 Off Hand = 100 Attacks Per Minute
BAB 9 = 89 Main 20 Off Hand = 109 Attacks Per Minute
BAB 14 = 94 Main 20 Off Hand = 114 Attacks Per Minute
BAB 16 = 96 Main 20 Off Hand = 116 Attacks Per Minute
BAB 20 = 100 Main 20 Off Hand = 120 Attacks Per Minute

Compared to the Current:

BAB 0 = 85 Main 42 Off hand = 127 Attacks Per Minute
BAB 9 = 96 Main 32 Off hand = 128 Attacks Per Minute
BAB 14 = 88 Main 22 Off hand = 110 Attacks Per Minute
BAB 16 = 83 Main 33 Off hand = 116 Attacks Per Minute

Once again my Proposed changes even out the benefits of TWF across the characters BAB increase, while at the same time reducing the early gains. By adding Improved Two Weapon Fighting and Greater Two Weapon Fighting we see the following changes.

BAB 0 = 80 Main 20 Off Hand = 100 Attacks Per Minute
BAB 6 = 86 Main 40 Off Hand = 126 ITWF Attacks Per Minute
BAB 11 = 91 Main 60 Off Hand = 151 GTWF Attacks Per Minute
BAB 20 = 100 Main 60 Off Hand = 160 GTWF Attacks Per Minute

Compared to the Current:

BAB 0 = 85 Main 42 Off hand = 127 Attacks Per Minute
BAB 6 = 92 Main 61 Off hand = 153 ITWF Attacks Per Minute
BAB 11 = 91 Main 91 Off hand = 182 GTWF Attacks Per Minute
BAB 16 = 83 Main 83 Off hand = 166 GTWF Attacks Per Minute

Under my proposed changes you can see that the feats become less front loaded and the benefits even out better as the characters BAB increases. Also a characters total number of attacks is actually reduced to be more level appropriate thereby reducing the overall power of the TWF style of play. This will address some of the overpowered aspects of the current TWF implementation.

I would also suggest applying the same rules to Ranged combat with the following adjustments:

Use a 3 Shots per 3 Second Base, resulting in 60 Shots per minute at BaB 0.
Apply a 25% attack speed decrease to ranged combat while moving, resulting in 45 Shots per minute at BaB 0.
The feat "Shot on the Run" will negate the movement penalty.
The feat "Rapid Shot" will grant a 25% attack speed increase

This will Result in the following attack speeds for Ranged:
Standard
BAB 0 = 60
BAB 5 = 63
BAB 10 = 67
BAB 15 = 71
BAB 20 = 75

Rapid Shot
BAB 0 = 75
BAB 5 = 78
BAB 10 = 82
BAB 15 = 86
BAB 20 = 90

This will be a significant improvement over current ranged attack speeds, while at the same time maintaining other attack forms as faster overall. The attack speed penalty for moving will help combat a lot of the complaints of "Kiting" archers in Melee heavy groups, unless a player invests in the feats required to get Shot on the Run.

I welcome constructive feedback. However if you intend to reply, please state EXACTLY what it is you do or dont like about the system along with a proposed change.

[Lithic]

So why exactly do you think 2wf should only attack 1.75 times as fast as using a single weapon?

[EinarMal]

You do not address glancing blows and this has the potential with your numbers to greatly overpower THF compared to TWF which should be equal in terms of single target DPS.

Edit:
Where does unarmed combat fit into this, with and without the TWF feats.

Edit #2:
You need to address manyshot if you are increasing the rate of fire at ranged. Right now manyshot as it is is pretty overpowered for 20s bursts it just can't be used continually.

[Nyvn]

Interesting... Actually loosing DPS for leveling up has always struck me as wrong. I also like the improvements to archery. I think this is an issue where the devs don't want to touch until they get it perfect. They've already made steps in the right direction by changing all THF weapons to the same speed. Hopefully they'll continue down the path and quit "punishing" melee for increasing their BAB. This suggestion could be the way they accomplish that.

[Xionanx]

So why exactly do you think 2wf should only attack 1.75 times as fast as using a single weapon?

Balance for one, however if you want a better reason then that.

TWF Grants ONE additional off hand attack per chain
ITWF Grants TWO additional off hand attacks per chain
GTWF Grants THREE addtional off hand attacks per chain

Per PnP Rules a Character with BaB 20 would have a total of 5 attacks using a Single One Handed or Two Handed weapon. A Character with a BaB 20, Dual wielding with GTWF would have a total 8 Attacks!

5/8 = 62.5% or a 1.625 Increase in attack speed.

I personally think I am being generous in my proposed changed to TWF style. Turbine was overly generous.

[krud]

So why exactly do you think 2wf should only attack 1.75 times as fast as using a single weapon?
GTWF in d&d should give 4 offhand attacks per round. That would be 1.8 times more than a single weapon, so 1.75 isn't so far off.
edit .. er, what xionix said

My only question is how do you determine how many main vs offhand attacks? As it is now it is weighted toward main hand attacks until you get GTWF and reach bab15.

[EinarMal]

Balance for one, however if you want a better reason then that.

TWF Grants ONE additional off hand attack per chain
ITWF Grants TWO additional off hand attacks per chain
GTWF Grants THREE addtional off hand attacks per chain

Per PnP Rules a Character with BaB 20 would have a total of 5 attacks using a Single One Handed or Two Handed weapon. A Character with a BaB 20, Dual wielding with GTWF would have a total 8 Attacks!

5/8 = 62.5% or a 1.625 Increase in attack speed.

I personally think I am being generous in my proposed changed to TWF style. Turbine was overly generous.

You are off by one attack level 20 fighters get 4 attacks, with TWF you get 7

7/4 = 1.75

You seem to have some kind of THF agenda in your numbers, you should really try to be more objective.

Both styles require 3 feats, the way you have it setup is heavily biased towards THF with glancing blows.

[Xionanx]

You do not address glancing blows and this has the potential with your numbers to greatly overpower THF compared to TWF which should be equal in terms of single target DPS.

Edit:
Where does unarmed combat fit into this, with and without the TWF feats.

Edit #2:
You need to address manyshot if you are increasing the rate of fire at ranged. Right now manyshot as it is is pretty overpowered for 20s bursts it just can't be used continually.

The benefits of glancing blows is insignificant compared to the benefits of 60 additional attacks on a target. I personally feel that it didn't need to be addressed as each fighter style has certain advantages and disadvanteges that need to be maintainted.

Fighting with a one handed weapon while using a shield "should" result in a higher AC. So you are trading extra attacks for AC

Fighting with a Two handed weapon grants 1.5 times STR bonus and should result in greated damage per swing. You are trading AC for greater damage.

Fighting with Two weapons will result in a greater number of attacks while should result in more potential hits and therefore more damage. You are trading "some" AC and "big" damage numbers for quantitiy. It all evens out in the end.

Unarmed will fall squarely into the TWF category and be treated as such. A monk with Flurry of Blows, ITWF, and GTWF will have the exact same number of attacks as a Dual Wielding Character with the same feats. The benefit of Unarmed in this case will be full STR bonus on off hand which would server to alleviate some monk issues.

I did not address Manyshot for the same reason you state, for 20's manyshot is an aweseome feat. However it is still on a 2 minute timer and only serves to help archers "keep up" with damage other play styles. If you have leveled an archer to 16 you would understand why I suggested the changes to ranged combat as I did. Ranged combat need a boost for ALL classes across the board, and the changed I proposed would help every class with ranged combat while at the same time letting those who choose to specialize in ranged combat reach a level where they will be on par with other play style choices.

[MrCow]

Use a 3 Shots per 3 Second Base, resulting in 60 Shots per minute at BaB 0.
Apply a 25% attack speed decrease to ranged combat while moving, resulting in 45 Shots per minute at BaB 0.
The feat "Shot on the Run" will negate the movement penalty.
The feat "Rapid Shot" will grant a 25% attack speed increase

This will Result in the following attack speeds for Ranged:
Standard
BAB 0 = 60
BAB 5 = 63
BAB 10 = 67
BAB 15 = 71
BAB 20 = 75

Considering Repeating Crossbows have around +120% to +200% the firing speed (depending on BAB) of a bow or crossbow that could create a potentially insane rate of fire like so

Standard (assuming +150% of crossbow speed)
BAB 0 = 150
BAB 5 = 159
BAB 10 = 168
BAB 15 = 177
BAB 20 = 187

Rapid Shot and Rapid Reload (assuming +150% of crossbow speed)
BAB 0 = 225
BAB 5 = 238
BAB 10 = 252
BAB 15 = 265
BAB 20 = 280

Sure, the repeater lacks a lot of additional extra damage that normally gets applied from STR, but as an attack style that could get up to 2.8 bolts per 1-melee swing or 1.57 bolts per 2-melee swing on top of being a distance based attack, that is somewhat concerning (especially when you start considering damage modifiers like a rogue's sneak attack).

[EinarMal]

The benefits of glancing blows is insignificant compared to the benefits of 60 additional attacks on a target. I personally feel that it didn't need to be addressed as each fighter style has certain advantages and disadvanteges that need to be maintainted.



So this is way off. In PnP there are no such things as glancing blows, TWF and THF are balanced without consideration for glancing blows, that is why you get 2x PA and 1.5x strength bonus for a two handed weapon versus TWF 1x + .5x.

Since the number of attacks are not doubled (should be 1.75 as your numbers are off) THF benefits more from strength and power attack.

Glancing blows are not insignifcant, the can be as much as 30+ damage per glancing blow, and you would get what another how many of those per 4 swing animation?

That is a huge increase in damage over TWF if you are not careful.

[Xionanx]

You are off by one attack level 20 fighters get 4 attacks, with TWF you get 7

7/4 = 1.75

You seem to have some kind of THF agenda in your numbers, you should really try to be more objective.

Both styles require 3 feats, the way you have it setup is heavily biased towards THF with glancing blows.

A fighter starts with 1 Attack at level 1 and gains an additional attack at levels 5, 10, 15, and 20 for a total of 5 attacks.

Please recheck you sources.

As far as a THF bias and or agenda, I can assure you I have none. Of the Two characters I play on a regular basis. One is a Wizard and the Other is a Monk. I have always disliked THF and have 0 THF characters:p.

I believe some people think glancing blows are more powerfull then they actually are.

[EinarMal]

A fighter starts with 1 Attack at level 1 and gains an additional attack at levels 5, 10, 15, and 20 for a total of 5 attacks.

Please recheck you sources.

As far as a THF bias and or agenda, I can assure you I have none. Of the Two characters I play on a regular basis. One is a Wizard and the Other is a Monk. I have always disliked THF and have 0 THF characters:p.

I believe some people think glancing blows are more powerfull then they actually are.

There is no extra attack at BAB 20

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/fighter.htm,
(http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/fighter.htm)

[Lithic]

A fighter starts with 1 Attack at level 1 and gains an additional attack at levels 5, 10, 15, and 20 for a total of 5 attacks.

Incorrect. In 3.5, you gain attacks at 0, 6, 11, 16 BAB. Only in DDO do you gain them at 0, 5, 10, 15, 20.

Please recheck you sources.

Ditto



In red.

[BlackSteel]

So this is way off. In PnP there are no such things as glancing blows, TWF and THF are balanced without consideration for glancing blows, that is why you get 2x PA and 1.5x strength bonus for a two handed weapon versus TWF 1x + .5x.
.

Not that I agree with the OP, but part of the balance you're referring to dealt alot with being able to determine how much power attack you wanted to use. In this game that is a static number, I cant very well increase my PA to -20/+40 the way that a TWF benefits from any other buff from simple virtue of having more attacks/min.

[EinarMal]

I believe some people think glancing blows are more powerfull then they actually are.

Honestly if you are going to propose changes to the combat system you need to do the math. It has nothing to do with what people *think*.

Glancing Blows 101:

Damage Calculation:
(Base damage + Bonus damage) / BAB Divisor

Base damage = your total damage
Bonus damage = 10 for THF, 20 for ITHF, 30 for GTHF, (and i assumed 40 for barbarian capstone, but no guarantees there)
BAB divisor = 5 for BAB1-10, 4 for BAB 11-15 and 3 for BAB 16+

So for the archon its is: (87 + 30) / 3 = 42

That is what a min/max build can hit with glancing blows. If you are twitching currently that would be every other attack, in your scheme you would be getting

100 Attacks
100 Glancing Blows?

You are telling me that 42 * (100/60) = +70 DPS is insignificant and not worth counting?

[EinarMal]

Not that I agree with the OP, but part of the balance you're referring to dealt alot with being able to determine how much power attack you wanted to use. In this game that is a static number, I cant very well increase my PA to -20/+40 the way that a TWF benefits from any other buff from simple virtue of having more attacks/min.

I am fine with that for everyone, I wish there were different levels of power attack like there should be. In some cases it would be nice to lower it especially for 3/4 BAB classes against certain higher AC targets which you should also be able to do.

[Xionanx]

Considering Repeating Crossbows have around +120% to +200% the firing speed (depending on BAB) of a bow or crossbow that could create a potentially insane rate of fire like so

Standard (assuming +150% of crossbow speed)
BAB 0 = 150
BAB 5 = 159
BAB 10 = 168
BAB 15 = 177
BAB 20 = 187

Rapid Shot and Rapid Reload (assuming +150% of crossbow speed)
BAB 0 = 225
BAB 5 = 238
BAB 10 = 252
BAB 15 = 265
BAB 20 = 280

Sure, the repeater lacks a lot of additional extra damage that normally gets applied from STR, but as an attack style that does 2.8 bolts per 1-melee swing or 1.57 bolts per 2-melee swing on top of being a distance based attack, that is somewhat concerning (especially when you start considering damage modifiers like a rogue's sneak attack).

Turbines implementation of Crossbows is questionable in the first place. As it stands now a Repeating crossbow user at level 16 with Both Rapid Shot and Rapid Reload recieves 120 shots per minute compared the a bow users 53.

If crossbows and reapeting crossbows were implemented "properly" using my proposed system you would see them function as this:

Crossbows recieve 1 Shot Per 3 Seconds
Repeating CrossBows 3 Shots Per 3 Seconds (just like a bow)

This would place repeating crossbows under the exact same speed as a longbow or shortbow user. While this would end up being a slower rate of fire then they currently get, it would overall balance them out.

[MrCow]

Repeating CrossBows 3 Shots Per 3 Seconds (just like a bow)

This would place repeating crossbows under the exact same speed as a longbow or shortbow user. While this would end up being a slower rate of fire then they currently get, it would overall balance them out.

I am curious... how does making something that requires a feat to use properly (Exotic Weaponry) and lacks extra features (able to add STR to damage) overall balance them out? That is akin to the problem of the light hammer being a 1d4 damage martial weapon which pales to the 1d6 damage simple weaponry light mace.

[Xionanx]

Honestly if you are going to propose changes to the combat system you need to do the math. It has nothing to do with what people *think*.

Glancing Blows 101:

Damage Calculation:
(Base damage + Bonus damage) / BAB Divisor

Base damage = your total damage
Bonus damage = 10 for THF, 20 for ITHF, 30 for GTHF, (and i assumed 40 for barbarian capstone, but no guarantees there)
BAB divisor = 5 for BAB1-10, 4 for BAB 11-15 and 3 for BAB 16+

So for the archon its is: (87 + 30) / 3 = 42

That is what a min/max build can hit with glancing blows. If you are twitching currently that would be every other attack, in your scheme you would be getting

100 Attacks
100 Glancing Blows?

You are telling me that 42 * (100/60) = +70 DPS is insignificant and not worth counting?

Please correct your math againg, as this is the second time you have used false infomation.

THF "Allows you to make glancing blows" but does not add ANY bonus damage
ITHF "Increased the damage of your glancing blows"
GTHF "Allows you to make additional glancing blows" but does not add ANY bonus damage.

So using your math you actually end up with:

Damage Calculation:
(Base damage + Bonus damage) / BAB Divisor

Base damage = 1d12 + (1.5xSTR Bonus) = 23-34 Damage assuming a STR of 40
Bonus damage = 10
BAB divisor = 5 for BAB1-10, 4 for BAB 11-15 and 3 for BAB 16+

So for the archon its is: (34 + 10) / 3 = 15 DMG on glancing blows.

So unless you can explain how you achieved a base damage of 87 not counting a "CRIT" .......:rolleyes:

Its a tradeoff because you will not ALWAYS be fighting monsters in large groups, while someone with TWF will always benefit from TWF. A THF will not always get the benefit of glancing blows.

Both of the fighting styles have thier advantages and disadvantages.

[BlackSteel]

Please correct your math againg, as this is the second time you have used false infomation.

THF "Allows you to make glancing blows" but does not add ANY bonus damage
ITHF "Increased the damage of your glancing blows"
GTHF "Allows you to make additional glancing blows" but does not add ANY bonus damage.
.

while the feats dont say as much, each one will increase the damage done. Its a noticeable increase with each feat.

try it out in game instead of just going by the compendium. the thing is wrong or lacks details on more than one account

additionally glancing blows hit everything in range of your swing, the main target included. With viscous damage, a barbarian will average atleast 30 additional damage per swing from having the feats. (roughly 60 damage extra damage to a single target every other attack)

[EinarMal]

Please correct your math againg, as this is the second time you have used false infomation.

THF "Allows you to make glancing blows" but does not add ANY bonus damage
ITHF "Increased the damage of your glancing blows"
GTHF "Allows you to make additional glancing blows" but does not add ANY bonus damage.

So using your math you actually end up with:

Damage Calculation:
(Base damage + Bonus damage) / BAB Divisor

Base damage = 1d12 + (1.5xSTR Bonus) = 23-34 Damage assuming a STR of 40
Bonus damage = 10
BAB divisor = 5 for BAB1-10, 4 for BAB 11-15 and 3 for BAB 16+

So for the archon its is: (34 + 10) / 3 = 15 DMG on glancing blows.

So unless you can explain how you achieved a base damage of 87 not counting a "CRIT" .......:rolleyes:

Its a tradeoff because you will not ALWAYS be fighting monsters in large groups, while someone with TWF will always benefit from TWF. A THF will not always get the benefit of glancing blows.

Both of the fighting styles have thier advantages and disadvantages.

Sorry but you screwed up the math, I don't care what the description says that damage increase is verified in game.

Here is the build I am referring to btw...

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=185401

You need to up your strength numbers by A LOT next Mod.

BTW my math is correct for PnP TWF, it is you who are mistaken.

You are also wrong about glancing blows only working on groups, they affect the target you are fighting, you really don't understand the game mechanics very well.

[BlackSteel]

So unless you can explain how you achieved a base damage of 87 not counting a "CRIT" .......:rolleyes:


You can check the archon build under character builds for the breakdown, but its not too hard. The 87 should be an average. I've gotten my barb ranger to break 100 on a single swing in this mod. ( granted it was with damage boost and tharnes goggles, but it was pretty cool to see 'you sneak attack arry for 102 damage)

[EinarMal]

You should spend some time reading this post

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=195380

Note the top builds in terms of DPS with the current game implementation and what they use (hint it is not TWF).

[Xionanx]

I am curious... how does making something that requires a feat to use properly (Exotic Weaponry) and lacks extra features (able to add STR to damage) overall balance them out? That is akin to the problem of the light hammer being a 1d4 damage martial weapon which pales to the 1d6 damage simple weaponry light mace.

Sorry, my mind was elsewhere. I meant to add that just like Rapid Shot would increase the attack speed of Bows (and crossbows) then Rapid Reload could be used to increase the attack speed of Crossbows.

And while I didn't write PnP in the first place, this is a question best proposed the orginal creaters of the game who made reloading a Crossbow a standard action. So a "Crossbow" could only be fired Once every other round, and a Repeating Crossbow could only be fired until its "clip" was empty (usually 5-10 shots). Your attack speed was still based on you base attack bonus, so a repeating crossbow user with a BaB 20 could at most fire 8 shots in 3 Rounds, where a bow user could get 12. Aquring the feat "Rapid Reload" made reloading a crossbow a "free action" so you could finally get your full 4 shots a round with a repeating crossbow.

So in PnP you needed: Exotic Weapon Proficiency and Rapid Reload just to equal what any figter got for free with a Longbow or Shortbow.

Was this "fair" or "balanced".. not my place to say. What I can tell you is that DDO's current implementation is WAY off from the PnP intent and that my proposals help more then hurt.

[BlackSteel]

You should spend some time reading this post

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=195380

Note the top builds in terms of DPS with the current game implementation and what they use (hint it is not TWF).

granted that score is weighted agaisnt a 100% and a 75% fortification encounter.

[EinarMal]

granted that score is weighted agaisnt a 100% and a 75% fortification encounter.

Yes, against non-fort the rogue types with TWF will win no doubt if you give them 100% sneak attacks.

It is still a good reference for DPS calculations, and how glancing blows work, and how THF is not nearly as bad currently as people often state.

That is assuming of course that you are willing to skip the later attacks in the chain.

[Xionanx]

You should spend some time reading this post

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=195380

Note the top builds in terms of DPS with the current game implementation and what they use (hint it is not TWF).

So you would have me believe that:
Using a highly specialized build
Using +4 Tomes
Twink Gear
All Raid Buffs available
Using "Twitch" attack rates


Is capable of doing large amounts of damage and can potentially be overpowered...:rolleyes: For the love of god man please think about what your saying:

Twitch rate of attack in the "Archon" is 166 attacks per minute. My THF with haste proposals would have 120 at level 20. Maybe 140 with an additional 25% speed increase from somewhere else... so LESS ATTACKS
+4 Tomes are not standard equipment
Twink gear is not what the average person will be using
You will not always have a Warchanter following you around and or ALL raid buffs
You only prove whats overpowered under the current system, not what "may" be overpowered under my proposed changes.

[EinarMal]

So you would have me believe that:

Using a highly specialized build
Using +4 Tomes
Twink Gear
All Raid Buffs available
Using "Twitch" attack rates


Is capable of doing large amounts of damage and can potentially be overpowered...:rolleyes: For the love of god man please think about what your saying:

Twitch rate of attack in the "Archon" is 166 attacks per minute. My THF with haste proposals would have 120 at level 20. Maybe 140 with an additional 25% speed increase from somewhere else... so LESS ATTACKS
+4 Tomes are not standard equipment
Twink gear is not what the average person will be using
You will not always have a Warchanter following you around and or ALL raid buffs
You only prove whats overpowered under the current system, not what "may" be overpowered under my proposed changes.



All the builds listed used the same gear. You are giving THF more glancing blows than they do in the those calculations (when you move you get less glancing blows than you would with auto attack).

You have shown zero math to justify the speed changes you are making. Most of the things you list (like Bard songs) benefit TWF more than THF in that thread.

Good luck because clearly you do not understand the game well enough to properly implement this type of approach.

I am not arguing anything is overpowered, what YOU must do is show that TWF = THF in single target DPS (or very similiar) and the way you have it setup it will not. Ignoring glancing blows is moronic.

[Xionanx]

All the builds listed used the same gear. You are giving THF more glancing blows than they do in the those calculations (when you move you get less glancing blows than you would with auto attack).

You have shown zero math to justify the speed changes you are making. Most of the things you list (like Bard songs) benefit TWF more than THF in that thread.

Good luck because clearly you do not understand the game well enough to properly implement this type of approach.

Actually I think I have a pretty firm understanding of the game. However I think you clearly dont understand the intent of the changes and instead of giving any form of "constructive" criticism you attempt to tear it down without giving it any critical thought.

As I stated originally, my proposed changes are designed to address several issues with the current game:
Attack speed reduction as BaB increases
Bias towards TWF style attack speed
Lack of a uniform attack speed for all combat styles.


As such my proposal does an excellent job of addressing those issues. Yes it "may" need a few adjustments to account for certain things, however it is a solid plan.

In regards to your belief that it overpowers THF all I can say is I believe I have answered that question sufficiently. The numbers you are using are based on a player using twitch skills to achieve a constant 166 Attacks per minute attack rate using a THF weapon. Under my proposals a person could at best under "normal" circumstances hope for 120 attacks per minute using a THF weapon. If you can not see how a reduction of 46 attacks would effect damage output then I dont know what else to tell you.

Using my proposal a Hasted TWF Kensai/Tempest would have 188 Attacks per minute, where a hasted Kensai THF would have 128. 60 More attacks per minute would IMO more then off set the additional damage granted by glancing blows. However, if that isn't enough for you then use the damage calc from that other thread and input my attacks per minute information.

You'll discover that by reducing the number of attacks to 128 for the THF Archor and changing the swing animations to 4, you end up with 373.2 DPS.. hardly a significant jump from 362.7 it currently gets.

[BlackSteel]

the 166 was with haste boost, which can be applied to your numbers as well. 120 + 30% more attack = ~155 attacks. depending how you implement glancing blows its better or worse.

the hasted (spell) numbers are 138 attacks/min

[Xionanx]

the 166 was with haste boost, which can be applied to your numbers as well. 120 + 30% more attack = ~155 attacks. depending how you implement glancing blows its better or worse.

the hasted (spell) numbers are 138 attacks/min

Actually I use base 80 for all my calculations using my system. All haste effects are applied to the base. The 25% from BAB 20, 25% from Haste, etc.. all are calculated from that base.

So counting a 30% haste boost would only add 24 Attacks per minute.

[EinarMal]

[quote=Xionanx;2381990]Actually I think I have a pretty firm understanding of the game. However I think you clearly dont understand the intent of the changes and instead of giving any form of "constructive" criticism you attempt to tear it down without giving it any critical thought.

As I stated originally, my proposed changes are designed to address several issues with the current game:

Attack speed reduction as BaB increases
Bias towards TWF style attack speed
Lack of a uniform attack speed for all combat styles.


As such my proposal does an excellent job of addressing those issues. Yes it "may" need a few adjustments to account for certain things, however it is a solid plan.

/quote]

There is no bias towards TWF attack speed, it very closely matches the 1.75:1 that it should be, your number is too low.

You did not suggest the fix this has already been posted by others several times.

What you are doing is giving exact numbers, which you are not justifying by doing the necessary calculations to ensure that they are balanced.

[EinarMal]

Actually I use base 80 for all my calculations using my system. All haste effects are applied to the base. The 25% from BAB 20, 25% from Haste, etc.. all are calculated from that base.

So counting a 30% haste boost would only add 24 Attacks per minute.

I just read your original post and you said nothing about this anywhere....

[EinarMal]

You'll discover that by reducing the number of attacks to 128 for the THF Archor and changing the swing animations to 4, you end up with 373.2 DPS.. hardly a significant jump from 362.7 it currently gets.

Why should I discover anything, you should be posting DPS calculations yourself to justify the attack speeds that you are proposing (including reasonable builds, glancing blows with the correct calculations, and reasonable items).

[Xionanx]

I just read your original post and you said nothing about this anywhere....

If you had followed the math you would have noticed that. Its one of those things that should have been obvious but apparently wasn't. It is implied that all speed bonus effect the BASE not the modified base.

[Xionanx]

Why should I discover anything, you should be posting DPS calculations yourself to justify the attack speeds that you are proposing (including reasonable builds, glancing blows with the correct calculations, and reasonable items).

Now you are just being an ass for the sake of being an ass.. Hell, while I'm at it why dont I just code a whole new MMO:rolleyes:

I have outlined the proposal.
I have provided a comparison to the current attack rates.
I have even posted what the results of the change would do to the build you claim would be overpowered using this modified system.

Your continued attacks are completely non-constructive and you have yet to propose an alternative or even a suggested change. You have only attacked what you "believe" to be overpowered THF attack speed. No, I owe you nothing but an entry to my ignore list.

[Xionanx]

In red.

I stand corrected on that. Still with 4 attacks without the TWF chain, and the 7 with, that works out exactly to a 75% speed increase. Or 4 x 1.75 = 7:D So I guess I hit it right on the money.

[Xionanx]

GTWF in d&d should give 4 offhand attacks per round. That would be 1.8 times more than a single weapon, so 1.75 isn't so far off.
edit .. er, what xionix said

My only question is how do you determine how many main vs offhand attacks? As it is now it is weighted toward main hand attacks until you get GTWF and reach bab15.

For figuring out how many main vs offhand attacks, I simply applied the description of the feat.

While fighting with a weapon in your off hand, you get "1" addtional off hand attack. So for the attack chain, you would have 4 main hand swings, and 1 off hand swing. ITWF and GTWF follow the same logic, each adding an additional "off hand" attack, for a total of 3 off hand swings for every 4 main hand swings.

[EinarMal]

Your continued attacks are completely non-constructive and you have yet to propose an alternative or even a suggested change. You have only attacked what you "believe" to be overpowered THF attack speed. No, I owe you nothing but an entry to my ignore list.

Oh noes the ignore list ahhhhh! You can't propose a sweeping overhaul of the combat system and propose hard numbers for attack rates and do zero comparisons of various DPS.

It is really not that difficult

1. You can't just pull numbers out, even if they are based on the description of things
2. What you have could be close (but you havn't shown it in any meaningful way)
3. How do you know it shouldn't be 150 swings for with GTWF and 100 for THF (you don't)
4. You have yet to address how glancing blows will work with 4 attacks, currently you get 3 out of 5 glancing blows when standing still for 60%, do you do 2 or 3?
5. If you choose 3 out of 4 that is 75% glancing blows and will have to be factored in to the swing rates
6. Glancing blows do affect the target you are fighting (and will easily average 30-40 per hit with any decent Fighter/Barbarian at level 20)

[Xionanx]

With the recent Patch to Mod 9 "some" of these proposed changes have been implemented. As such time will tell whether any further changes need to be made.