IMHO, how to fix monk and stress monks' features.

[manfredshw]

Turbine, did a very good job to create monk.
Expecially in finish move, ki bar, and 4 stance.

I think with some understanding and knowledge, monk can be good in all around. However, their dps is not that good compared with GS equipment monsters.

GS handwraps can't solve dps problem, due to monk's low critical multi and range.

Just remember, a gs khopesh is only 1D10+1d6+2d6+dmg mod per hit.
a monk with +x holy evil outsider bane(which is very easy to obtain) is 2D8+2d6+2d6 per hit.
(and if you use fire stance and spam ki strike, 2d6, 2d6+2d6critical, 1d6 etc, monk dmg/hit is far better and stable)

You guys tell me which one is better? and how much dmg we can obtain from a GS wrap if we have.

There is a big gap between two, khopesh can critical much more and harder, monk can't.

What we got as a monk?
we have KI, we have finish move.
That's the key.

Why just enhance this feature for every one of us?

M9 monk can obtain a new finish move, which is vs will save(check it out in compendium), with 10 cha(8base+2tome), we can hit 30dc at lv20, it's low, sure, but, it's ok, finally we have a new finish move which is against will. Now we have most of skills vs fortitude, unbalancing vs flex, and dark fist and NEW vs will.

Good move, turbie, then just enlarge this feature,

as a dark monk, specialised in offence, you can add, lightenning strike, crushing wave, magma surge and many many other offence finish move which come from GS crafting, but cost more KI. And complicated combo.
Such as:
earth earth earth dark=disintegrate,
wind wind wind dark=lightening
water water water dark=crushing wave
fire fire fire dark=magma surge,
Or even water dark wind earth dark=Wail of the Banshee

If you think this damage is far to balance, you can just add related save for half damage. Or decrease to half of the gs weapon dmg, due to full twf chain monk can hit one enemy with two times finish move.

Think about it, if a monk can perform a lightening strike every one or two round, monk dps will be enhanced, and you need more ki to perform, so fire stance will be the top dps stanceas it should be. And finish move will be more attractive.

The same for light path monk,
mass restoration
mass shield(not faith shield)
mass heal? mess ....

Think about it, it is easy to code. and you got animation work already, just like GS weapons, and spells.

And due to monk need to build up these finish move, monk may loss some ki attacks on every hit, but that's the way is, you gain sth, you loss sth. karmic right?

Thank you for those who finish reading my post.

[manfredshw]

and also, pls bane those who splash one monk lv for ac for good. Those are impact and unbalance sin for the monk.

[Monkey_Archer]

I agree with the concept, but not the particular impelmentation you propose...

I have advocated more damaging finishers, especially for dark monks, but giving them lighting strike ever round or 2 is WAY too much.

A less powerful alternative might be to copy all the GS effects with a 6 move combo, a very high (50+) ki cost, and a finisher timer which locks out the ability to use any other finishers to represent the extra effort ot take to use such a powerful ability.

Examples:
earth x6 = earth grab (1 minute finisher timer)
dark x6 = Slay living (1 minute timer)
air air light light air air = lighting strike (2 minute timer)
air air dark dark air air = trap the soul (2 minute timer)
fire fire dark dark fire fire = enervation (2 minute timer)
water water light light water water = Steam 12-22 damage (no timer)

[Denssor]

I agree with the concept, but not the particular impelmentation you propose...

I have advocated more damaging finishers, especially for dark monks, but giving them lighting strike ever round or 2 is WAY too much.

A less powerful alternative might be to copy all the GS effects with a 6 move combo, a very high (50+) ki cost, and a finisher timer which locks out the ability to use any other finishers to represent the extra effort ot take to use such a powerful ability.

Examples:
earth x6 = earth grab (1 minute finisher timer)
dark x6 = Slay living (1 minute timer)
air air light light air air = lighting strike (2 minute timer)
air air dark dark air air = trap the soul (2 minute timer)
fire fire dark dark fire fire = enervation (2 minute timer)
water water light light water water = Steam 12-22 damage (no timer)

This seems to be a better idea as far as finishers go.

Dark monks really need DPS based enhancments. Things like added DC for finishers/stunning blow/QP, increased damage when using elemental strikes and finishers, possibly increase crit range (only 1 teir, and would need several other enchancements aswell), things along those lines.

[toughguyjoe]

I keep hearing stuff about needing higher DPS on Monks. My Monks do fine DPS. They are Str based, have moderate Dex, lowish Wis, High Str, Moderate Con. WF.

Its survivable, it has good(relative to a monk :D) DPS with a Staff and Power attack along with the WF PA enhancements.

I have fun with it. If they make monks better, more power to them. The ones i've built and played with seemed to work well.

[Pyromaniac]

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=196207

Same topic thread - see the post by Eladrin, monks are fine.

[bobbryan2]

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=196207

Same topic thread - see the post by Eladrin, monks are fine.

Just like Paladins were!

:rolleyes:

[manfredshw]

Many ppl go to the wrong path, monk do need raw dps.
NO MORE debuffs and buffs pls, debuff do not work on the named bosses. Buffs are too short duration, and not that attractive.

We need more RAW DPS.

And ring can't help us more.
Because that is end game, end level, top equipment with many grind work beyond LV18.

what about 1-17, how these 1-17monks spend their lives.

And when we hit lv20, obtained ring, enlarged dps, what we punch then? Kobolds in WW?

[Monkey_Archer]

I keep hearing stuff about needing higher DPS on Monks. My Monks do fine DPS. They are Str based, have moderate Dex, lowish Wis, High Str, Moderate Con. WF.

Its survivable, it has good(relative to a monk :D) DPS with a Staff and Power attack along with the WF PA enhancements.

I have fun with it. If they make monks better, more power to them. The ones i've built and played with seemed to work well.

I know the OP is posting for the same reason many others have...
monk dps is gimp.. broken.. increase monk dps.. blah blah... :rolleyes:
Nothing new... ;)

But i do like the concept of GS tier 3 effects as finishers. And, as long as it would be implemented properly (high ki cost + cooldown timer) It would be a great addition to monks.... for flavor reasons, not dps.

I mean, 1 lighting strike every 2 minutes (as per my proposal) is still not even close to a GS lightning strike weapon (114 attacks per minute * 2 minutes* 2% proc rate = 4.5 lighting strikes) . But in terms of flavor, its gold IMHO

[Aerendil]

Yep, agreed.
Some ideas Monks have argued for over the last year or so for finishers:
- Increase the finishing move durations. A 1 minute duration Blur at level 3 is *great*! but at level 5+ when we're perma-buffed with 10+min long blurs? What's the point? Same with the mana-reduction buff - a Spellsinger can give the same buff and have it last twice as long at level 6, and upwards of three or four times as long at level 16.
Having them on a 1min duration means we constantly have to re-spam them, which means we're spending all of our time hitting the same elemental / tier2 (eagle claw, fists of iron, etc.) attacks over and over in order to keep the buff up.

- change finishing moves to a 1-shot move with the total ki required. I.e. a monk with the first fire stance buys the fists of light enhancement. Suddenly, "walk of the sun" appears in their feat tree, and can be hotkeyed for an insta-buff for a total cost of <whatever the total ki is here - I can't be arsed to add it up>.
This would allow the pure elemental finishers such as trembling earth, or the raging sea, to be used much more liberally and effectively.
This would also allow us to not have to spam our elemental attacks in random orders to keep the finishers up, which will improve our dps as we can then focus on using elemental attacks an enemy is weak to, or to use our tier2 attacks much more efficiently.

- offer higher level finishers to allow for more powerful abilities. There are some suggested above, but there are plenty of options here. The original finishers are often not used at higher levels because of their overall weakness compared to other class' abilities, as well as (in some cases) actually lowering our dps by slowing down our attack chain.

This is just the tip of the iceberg, though, really. They need to look at monk stances (sun and earth need encouragement to be taken over wind and water); improve drop rates on monk weapons, allowing certain types (such as transmuting handwraps) to be more prevalent in the game; add additional handwrap abilities (holy of pure good please); change flurry of blows to what it really should be (which offers us a nice burst dps attack); and so on. The list goes on.

[soubal]

the way to 'fix monks', or 'fix' any class isn't with the classes themselves.

It's the content the classes are playing through.

When people focus entirely on 'endgame', and 'endgame' boils down to one or two mobs, then 'useful' characters basically come down to things designed with that single goal in mind.

When you try to boil an entire game down to one figure (and it appears to me that for many of you, it's "DPS"), then yeah... you're ruining the game.

If you 'balanced' every melee class to have the same DPS, then you erode the fundamental differences between those classes, the things that make them unique and enjoyable. Fighters are supposed to be better armoured than Barbs, who are supposed to hit harder (but less accurately). Paladins have that divine power. Rangers used range (lol) and can dual-wield, but aren't expected to be particularly surviveable. Monks might not hit as hard individually, but have extreme rates of attack and the agility to avoid damage.


Problem is, the 'gods' of DDO seem to have been rather formulaic in their content. A "hard boss" is something with a mountain of HP, DR and elemental resistances. Unfortunately, with the way DR works (which, incidentally, makes absolutely no sense), monks with their multitude of weaker attacks are affected far more than a barb that makes one giant swing.

More content, and specifically more varied content, which works the strengths and weaknesses of each class, is how to make those classes more viable. Give everyone a role to perform, and something to watch out for, and you get everyone involved.

But if your entire focus is one guy, then yeah: you're going to get cookie-cutters.. because they're always up against the same **** cookie.

[Monkey_Archer]

This is just the tip of the iceberg, though, really. They need to look at monk stances (sun and earth need encouragement to be taken over wind and water);

Fire did not become the dps stance it should have been. The existing ki strikes do not add enough damage to make up for the increased attack speed of wind stance, and the penalty to wisdom makes the non-damaging ki strikes/finishers undesireable.
By adding more effective (and more expensive) finishers, like the ideas above, or others from other threads, this alone woud be enough encouragement to use fire stance.

Earth stance on the other hand does need work. The lvl 20 ability is making the DR all but obsolete. One of the strengths of monks is that they can avoid getting hit, so the ki generation on getting hit would be more beneficial to a barbarian :eek:

[Monkey_Archer]

the way to 'fix monks', or 'fix' any class isn't with the classes themselves.

It's the content the classes are playing through.

When people focus entirely on 'endgame', and 'endgame' boils down to one or two mobs, then 'useful' characters basically come down to things designed with that single goal in mind.

When you try to boil an entire game down to one figure (and it appears to me that for many of you, it's "DPS"), then yeah... you're ruining the game.

If you 'balanced' every melee class to have the same DPS, then you erode the fundamental differences between those classes, the things that make them unique and enjoyable. Fighters are supposed to be better armoured than Barbs, who are supposed to hit harder (but less accurately). Paladins have that divine power. Rangers used range (lol) and can dual-wield, but aren't expected to be particularly surviveable. Monks might not hit as hard individually, but have extreme rates of attack and the agility to avoid damage.


Problem is, the 'gods' of DDO seem to have been rather formulaic in their content. A "hard boss" is something with a mountain of HP, DR and elemental resistances. Unfortunately, with the way DR works (which, incidentally, makes absolutely no sense), monks with their multitude of weaker attacks are affected far more than a barb that makes one giant swing.

More content, and specifically more varied content, which works the strengths and weaknesses of each class, is how to make those classes more viable. Give everyone a role to perform, and something to watch out for, and you get everyone involved.

But if your entire focus is one guy, then yeah: you're going to get cookie-cutters.. because they're always up against the same **** cookie.


Saying this politely... Did you even read the OP?

Not once is endgame mentioned in the OP.
Neither is DPS vs endgame bosses.
Neither is transmuting.


I prefer to ignore the negative you seem to have reached for:

How to fix monk
and focus on the positive

stress monks' features

[Brother_Solar]

Fire did not become the dps stance it should have been. I agree, and I agree that a root cause of the weaker fire stance is the implementation of the ki elemental attacks and finishing moves.

However, we can make suggestions until we're blue in the face, and it won't do us a lick of good. Until we know what is or is not possible programming-wise, until the developers ask for a think-tank on the subject to show that they want/need to understand the problems and find solutions, we're just wasting our brain-storming and finger-waggling energy.

I know! We should focus on complaining! Very specific and mind-numbingly repetitive complaining to brow-beat the developers into understanding where they've gone wrong and until they acknowledge our opinions and desires!

Honestly, I don't WANT to be a Debbie Downer, but I've seen good suggestions put through again and again with no effect. I think it would be brilliant to have a long, complicated Ki attack chain leading to an outstanding and effective finishing move. However, before that is even an option, Ki attacks have to be DEBUGGED so that they go off effectively and reliably when the dag-blasted button is pressed! Maybe if I didn't have to wait two seconds after every Ki attack to be certain it went off before utilizing a finishing move to have any surety that my time and ki won't be wasted, I would use the already existing finishers more often!

Erm... Ahem. Perhaps my frustration is getting away with me.

Back to the topic at hand, one potential problem/exploitation I could see with the long-chain-finisher idea is the pre-charge we can do with our current finishing moves. Since finishing moves are essentially eternal once charged (as long as you don't switch gear, drink a potion, use an item, loot a chest, CLIMB A LADDER, etc.), you could enter every battle with some uber-move at the ready provided you had the ki available ahead of time. With Serenity, that may well BE every time.

Is that a plus or a minus? It could be both or either, depending on how the new-and-improved theoretical finishing moves turned out. At this point, my natural skepticism and jaded attitude kick back in. :p

[Mercules]

Enhanced finishing moves would be a way to boost monks up a bit except for the fact that finishing moves cut out when you do almost anything.


Teammate goes down and you need to open the door to the shrine for them or Rez them... both kick off whatever finishing move you were building up to.

Run into something you can't hurt with your current handwraps/kama/staff so you switch and your finishing move you were building goes away.

Open a chest... goes away.

Pick up a needed key... goes away.

Short jump and catch the ledge instead by accident... goes away.

Drink a potion instead of making a teammate heal you... goes away.


I think they should only cancel the progression when you trigger a different attack.

The other thing that would be nice is if they would extend the dang duration on the buffs and debuffs(and maybe make the debuffs worth throwing). A minute of blur... whoopy. When I am soloing it is great since I can't get the effect another way but when I can instead be throwing a Mass CLWs all the time and saving the Cleric a bit of SPs it is cheaper to let someone else Extend(or even not Extend) a Blur on everyone. It is also difficult to get the group to gather up every minute or so for something they could get without having to gather at all.

[Monkey_Archer]

you could enter every battle with some uber-move at the ready provided you had the ki available ahead of time. With Serenity, that may well BE every time.

The would definately be an issue... and if anything as powerfull as lighting strike was added as a finisher it would have to be expensive enough (50+ ki) that you couldnt prep one before every battle without meditating first.

[eonfreon]

and also, pls bane those who splash one monk lv for ac for good. Those are impact and unbalance sin for the monk.

Sure, but I think Turbine better get Respecs available first and give Free Respec Tokens to any Monk Splash character if they're going to change Monk AC-Splash.

People splashed Monk for the Wis bonus to AC as well as the Feats and Evasion.

If they change the way Monk AC works on my Monk-splash they better let me have the option to Respec, or I would feel somewhat "cheated";).

Ain't worried about it either way, but if they change things round they really should have some way for us to re-adapt and not be stuck with some combination that is no longer as useful as it was Under The Rules We Were Told and Created Our Characters With.

Anyway, I don't think they'll change Monk Splash AC anytime soon, but thought I'd give my 2 cp on that.

[eonfreon]

Don't know why I felt the need to post that above.
Sorry, don't want to start a de-rail pro or contra Monk AC.
We'll worry about that some other day :).

The true topic is how to give some worthy abilities to make playing Monk more fun and rewarding to play.
I like these ideas so far.
Hopefully some work is being done on Monks.
I haven't played one since they first came out.

I would like a reason to play one rather then to splash them on my Real Class to gain some advantages.

[Drfirewater79]

sorry didnt read everyones reply

love the finished ideas with doubling the ammount of strikes to give a uber finisher and i do think that would make up for lightning strike.

The greensteel comment about it not increasing dps is the one i have to squelch right now

greensteel handwraps would be +5 holy shocking burst shock blast and a chance per hit of over 600 points of damage (with increased hits per round is alot of chances) vs what ever you can get holy greater evil outsider banes on ( i have +3 shocking burst handwraps of greater evil outsider bane that i use now)

There is nothing that dps wise competes with 600 electric damage no matter what anyone says.

and if you are wind stance you can add another 3d6 (every 5-10 seconds) shock damage to the mix that you dont get with kamas from finisher.

Dps cannot be done by a monk as it stands now fire monks are the only ones who come close and because they cannot wear armor and have to dump all there stats into str and wis they have almost no ac which is the biggest feature of a monk and the only reason everyone is splashing monk into everything.

plus the lack of transmuting means vs bosses monks do considerably less DPS vs harry on normal (on elite no one will take a monk) you do average (based on wind monk dex wis build) 3-15 phisical damage + your modifiers

it would be high 20's -high 30's with transmuting but you would also lose out on first part benefits (holy shocking burst or what ever you have or want)

I dual weild lightning strikes on my fighter (no tempest) and i see it go off all the time in missions and vs harry ... getting that chance 2 times as much on a monk might mean the difference between people hating on monks and not letting them into elite raids vs Monks getting in on top notch kill counts and being wanted in high end raid content.

Greensteel is needed and the new rings are BS unless they can match up to DPS of lightning strike. giving an additional good burst and whatever burst isnt bad but unless you can put transmuting on them rings monks will always be less useful vs raid bosses where ac means little at all.

[Drfirewater79]

I agree with the concept, but not the particular impelmentation you propose...

I have advocated more damaging finishers, especially for dark monks, but giving them lighting strike ever round or 2 is WAY too much.

A less powerful alternative might be to copy all the GS effects with a 6 move combo, a very high (50+) ki cost, and a finisher timer which locks out the ability to use any other finishers to represent the extra effort ot take to use such a powerful ability.

Examples:
earth x6 = earth grab (1 minute finisher timer)
dark x6 = Slay living (1 minute timer)
air air light light air air = lighting strike (2 minute timer)
air air dark dark air air = trap the soul (2 minute timer)
fire fire dark dark fire fire = enervation (2 minute timer)
water water light light water water = Steam 12-22 damage (no timer)

This is only alternative that makes any sense to not having greensteel and i think Turbine should pay attention cause this makes sense.

finishers that are actually finishers and based on stance(thus elemental powers) and dark or light (pure good/holy vs unholy) to equate to there magical other in the shroud crafting world

holy lightning lightning lightning stirke on greensteel

wind stance(electric) light (good) + combo = lightning strike (would need to be 80-90ki to keep it near as often as dual weilding)

that combo system you made makes alot of sense when matched up with greensteel and magical properties make sense to be similar in same world ......

hope turbine does something like that to fix this ring stupidity

[Mercules]

If they change the way Monk AC works on my Monk-splash they better let me have the option to Respec, or I would feel somewhat "cheated";).

Ain't worried about it either way, but if they change things round they really should have some way for us to re-adapt and not be stuck with some combination that is no longer as useful as it was Under The Rules We Were Told and Created Our Characters With.

They won't and historically haven't. Ask the number of Fighter builds that included 2 levels of Rogue for Evasion but had lower Dex so when Evasion changed and you could no longer use Evasion while wearing armor heavier then Light they could either find Mithral Breastplates and loose AC or wear their Mithral Full Plate/Full Plate and not use Evasion.

Ask the number of Ranged characters that had Shot on the Run or Cast on the Run when they changed the operation of reloading and casting.

[Drfirewater79]

Originally Posted by eonfreon View Post
If they change the way Monk AC works on my Monk-splash they better let me have the option to Respec, or I would feel somewhat "cheated".

Ain't worried about it either way, but if they change things round they really should have some way for us to re-adapt and not be stuck with some combination that is no longer as useful as it was Under The Rules We Were Told and Created Our Characters With.

I hate to say it but turbine already said its working as intended but they also said that respecs will be a store function added soon .. so either way you wont be cheated but you will be suckered into spending money .... however keep in mind turbine is in middle of legal battle with atari over rights so its very possible that there will be no updates again for quite some time.