Whats up with the AI?

[Roman]

Why can't the AI be a little more intelligent?

I can understand undead standing in a firewall, they are undead afterall and rather stupid. But Why are intelligent sentient beings; including drow, elves, dwarves and humans so ******** that they will stand in a blazing hot firewall til dead or willingly walk thru a blade barrier?

It's been an arms race to give mobs better saves, more immunities, more hit points, etc. Why not just give them more brains?

[foxx]

welcome to turbine

[Club'in]

Lol. Uh, I do all that too. Holy #%*&! My hitpoints are dropping fast! Oh, guess this isn't "our" firewall. :o

Couldn't tell ya the number of times I've died to an opponent caster's cloudkill.

[captain1z]

Why can't the AI be a little more intelligent?

I can understand undead standing in a firewall, they are undead afterall and rather stupid. But Why are intelligent sentient beings; including drow, elves, dwarves and humans so ******** that they will stand in a blazing hot firewall til dead or willingly walk thru a blade barrier?

It's been an arms race to give mobs better saves, more immunities, more hit points, etc. Why not just give them more brains?

The only time I see them stand in this stuff is when they are unable to move. Now if u mean they chase you into the effect then think of it this way.

- if they didnt follow you in you basicly will have created a safe spot from which you can range them.

The only way to really fix that is to make it so player spells can hurt the party and mobs will path around these effects if they can.

[Jonny_D]

- if they didnt follow you in you basicly will have created a safe spot from which you can range them.



all ranged characters dream of this.. the day ranged becomes UBER

[Ranmaru2]

Why can't the AI be a little more intelligent?

I can understand undead standing in a firewall, they are undead afterall and rather stupid. But Why are intelligent sentient beings; including drow, elves, dwarves and humans so ******** that they will stand in a blazing hot firewall til dead or willingly walk thru a blade barrier?

It's been an arms race to give mobs better saves, more immunities, more hit points, etc. Why not just give them more brains?

Take a seat lad. I'm about to tell a tale of ole.

Around Mod 4, Turbine had the brilliant idea of implementing an AI system that they obviously did not understand how it would behave nor how it would operate. They chose to implement this AI system thinking it would be for the better of the game, but soon found it to be dumber than the AI that existed before it. Instead of trying to fix their blunder or get an operations manual for what they were taking under their wing, they dove head first into the ocean to try and dig through the whole engine to get to the root of the problem. They soon addressed the stupidity of the AI to stand in clouds that would kill them and made them ultra smart pathfinders that were bent on getting to the person who even created an obscuring mist even if the person was a mile away.

Don't ask how they knew where you were, some how, some way, they knew and they will find you. However...this had its disadvantages, as enemy monsters then became suckers for obvious traps, like the shield wall. Turbine then took the next step to address this problem by making them attack the shield wall one to two times and then going after the person they were chasing or who could just drop a solid fog and get their aggro. Now...Turbine has tried to address the AI and the population of Stormreach prays they've been able to make the dolts smarter, but then they tried out their new AI fix on our neighboring country of Lamannia and found that it made the enemy stupider than ever. You could walk up and kick the enemy upside the head and they stood there as if you didn't exist. Hopefully Turbine has learned from their mistakes and will learn that they really need to concentrate on the AI and make it more sentient, rather than just a moronic pathfinder that can't tell the wall of shields in front of it is actually a target it should be worried about. We can only sit and pray lad...pray that they will finally pull out the operations manual for the AI system they chose to use.

[78mackson]

Why can't the AI be a little more intelligent?

I can understand undead standing in a firewall, they are undead afterall and rather stupid. But Why are intelligent sentient beings; including drow, elves, dwarves and humans so ******** that they will stand in a blazing hot firewall til dead or willingly walk thru a blade barrier?

It's been an arms race to give mobs better saves, more immunities, more hit points, etc. Why not just give them more brains?

I agree.. but in other mmo´s mobs have almost zero- AI compared to DDO...

[Jasoul]

ive noticed some stuff lately not following you through a blade barrier, or firewall, also, ive noticed that while leveling a couple of lowbies that the iron dogs in info is key actually run away from you, noticed oozes heading away from you as well.
who says halflings are intimidating looking :D heh

[baddax]

I think somewhere the Dev's alluded to the fact that increased AI and Pathing was part of server lag issues. So i was thinking the smarter they make the mobs the more calculations/ decision the mobs have the more load on the servers and thus more lag.

So maybe with the imporved hardware there will be opportunities to improve AI and Not increase lag?

[Thanimal]

Why can't the AI be a little more intelligent?

I can understand undead standing in a firewall, they are undead afterall and rather stupid. But Why are intelligent sentient beings; including drow, elves, dwarves and humans so ******** that they will stand in a blazing hot firewall til dead or willingly walk thru a blade barrier?

It's been an arms race to give mobs better saves, more immunities, more hit points, etc. Why not just give them more brains?

The "answer" to this is not very satisfactory, but simple: Upping the numbers on the opponents takes about 1/10000th the development effort of significantly improving AI.

AI in a game as complex as DDO is a very difficult problem. (I have some clue what I'm talking about because my Masters degree "focus area" was AI, although I must admit I haven't done much "real" AI in the last 15 years.)

Ultimately, you have to ask the question: Would you rather Turbine pay people to create new content or pay people to improve the AI?

[baddax]

The "answer" to this is not very satisfactory, but simple: Upping the numbers on the opponents takes about 1/10000th the development effort of significantly improving AI.

AI in a game as complex as DDO is a very difficult problem. (I have some clue what I'm talking about because my Masters degree "focus area" was AI, although I must admit I haven't done much "real" in the last 15 years.)

Ultimately, you have to ask the question: Would you rather Turbine pay people to create new content or pay people to improve the AI?

thats easy, both.
Oh and i want it for Free :D

[Thanimal]

thats easy, both.
Oh and i want it for Free :D

Ain't that the truth. I'd give you rep but I'm the one who keeps complaining that rep is mainly based on humor, so I suppose I shouldn't exacerbate that!

[Bogenbroom]

Ultimately, you have to ask the question: Would you rather Turbine pay people to create new content or pay people to improve the AI?

Ultimately a little of column A and a little of column B.

What I would *really* like to see are more AI models. I am less concerned that each individual beastie is easily manipulated than I am that I know pretty much what he is going to do ahead of time. Even if the existing AI model could be taken, copied, and minorly modified a couple of times, and the AI assigned to beasties was "randomized" to any degree, I think that would go a long way to flavor adding.

Heck, I think it would be *great* if some of the older AI models cropped up in there.

The downside to that is less the upfront labor and more the on-going maintenance and trouble-shooting. Think, "Bug report: I have a mob here that is doing the wacky." Well which AI bugged out? How do you ID that in a report?

[Kalanth]

I just want them to fix the dogs and ghouls. I am tired of chasing them down as they spasticly run away from me as soon as they see me.

[Zuldar]

The only way we'll get truly good AI is if we get players running the monsters. Nothing like a good dm to cause a party wipe.

[Talcyndl]

If only good AI were as easy to code as some here assume.

[Ron]

I think somewhere the Dev's alluded to the fact that increased AI and Pathing was part of server lag issues. So i was thinking the smarter they make the mobs the more calculations/ decision the mobs have the more load on the servers and thus more lag.a

This.

Smarter AI. No Lag. Low monthly cost.

Pick any two.

[Draiden]

You're talking about creating better AI as though all it requires is a couple of clicks and drags on a window that tweaks some minor adjustments.

If the AI in DDO was perfect, then they would not be selling an online video game. Instead they would be designing droids and robots that could do our laundry, dishes... heck, even all of our jobs so that we could kick back at home and play DDO all day. They would be designing electric cars that we didn't have to drive.

Scientists for decades have been trying to code "perfect AI"... don't expect Turbine to crunch it out perfectly in their next module.

*Can't shake the thought of my Turbine Car locking me in it and chasing a fire...* Ugh.

[Pittminion]

put in a check feature. If primary target = unreachable then kick the snot out of closest target that is. I'm not asking for tactics. Just something more than I'll stand here looking at these guys with shields while I burn to death.


You want tactics, let them put firewalls on our shield walls.

[VirieSquichie]

Take a seat lad. I'm about to tell a tale of ole.

Around Mod 4, Turbine had the brilliant idea of implementing an AI system that they obviously did not understand how it would behave nor how it would operate. They chose to implement this AI system thinking it would be for the better of the game, but soon found it to be dumber than the AI that existed before it. Instead of trying to fix their blunder or get an operations manual for what they were taking under their wing, they dove head first into the ocean to try and dig through the whole engine to get to the root of the problem. They soon addressed the stupidity of the AI to stand in clouds that would kill them and made them ultra smart pathfinders that were bent on getting to the person who even created an obscuring mist even if the person was a mile away.

Don't ask how they knew where you were, some how, some way, they knew and they will find you. However...this had its disadvantages, as enemy monsters then became suckers for obvious traps, like the shield wall. Turbine then took the next step to address this problem by making them attack the shield wall one to two times and then going after the person they were chasing or who could just drop a solid fog and get their aggro. Now...Turbine has tried to address the AI and the population of Stormreach prays they've been able to make the dolts smarter, but then they tried out their new AI fix on our neighboring country of Lamannia and found that it made the enemy stupider than ever. You could walk up and kick the enemy upside the head and they stood there as if you didn't exist. Hopefully Turbine has learned from their mistakes and will learn that they really need to concentrate on the AI and make it more sentient, rather than just a moronic pathfinder that can't tell the wall of shields in front of it is actually a target it should be worried about. We can only sit and pray lad...pray that they will finally pull out the operations manual for the AI system they chose to use.

NICE summary!

Short answer...AI is apparently more complex than the folks Turbine has can handle, at least given the time constraints they're under.

Longer one: Applying that AI package broke many things and Turbine has been unwilling to admit any time one of their changes has undesirable effects...in effect, no matter how bad the situation they'll pretend everything is fine until they can make a change and say it was part of some other thing and just coincidentally revised their former change...meanwhile, we have monsters doing stoooopid things and probably consuming massive amounts of CPU cycles trying to achieve tasks despite blocking conditions they aren't scripted to work around.

[GlassCannon]

Coding an AI is literally more difficult than raising a mentally ******** child.

Reason: A computer has an IQ of 0(ZERO). It cannot and does not think for itself, ever. It does exactly what you tell it, without deviation(this is why the Military loves computers so very much).

Problem: Without insurmountable Foresight and incalculable wisdom, a Developer will have an excessive amount of mind-tormenting difficulties in rapid succession when coding a Radiant Intelligent AI system.

Essentially, give the guys and gals at Turbine some slack here, it's hard enough coding an AI for each dungeon, let alone the entire game. What I think they need is a few solid 170+ IQ people in there helping with the AI.

Problem with that: Only a select few of us(community members, players etc) with IQ that high are even willing to help with the game.

Preferable Solution: Be patient with them, and they will figure it out eventually. Until then, enjoy your occasional "free kill" ;)

[Nikmal]

NICE summary!

Short answer...AI is apparently more complex than the folks Turbine has can handle, at least given the time constraints they're under.

Longer one: Applying that AI package broke many things and Turbine has been unwilling to admit any time one of their changes has undesirable effects...in effect, no matter how bad the situation they'll pretend everything is fine until they can make a change and say it was part of some other thing and just coincidentally revised their former change...meanwhile, we have monsters doing stoooopid things and probably consuming massive amounts of CPU cycles trying to achieve tasks despite blocking conditions they aren't scripted to work around.

Both you and the person you quoted know so much about AI.. why aren't you coding your own game?

AI is not something you can just turn off and on in a little set of code instead of the millions of lines of code that is in this game.

Do us all a favor and stop assuming that Turbine is out to get us players in some huge conspiracy and they that they do not know what they are doing... as apparently they do as they actually HAVE a game that is playable at this moment.. which is more then I can say for anyone else on these boards.

[GlassCannon]

...they actually HAVE a game that is playable at this moment.. which is more then I can say for anyone else on these boards.

If I were working on a game, I wouldn't be playing one. It all comes down to one simple factor: Money. If you have it, you can do things you want to do, like make a new game or write a book or make a new engine that replaces combustion types so effectively that fossil fuel burners are scrapped as absolutely obsolete.

It all comes down to being narrow minded and unable to fathom the circumstances surrounding others' inability to act in certain manners, or inactivity that may pertain to a lifestyle that prohibits by means of either circumstantial disability(as in the case of a narcoleptic), or the extensive and progressive support of other persons. Not everyone has a free ride, or is paid nearly what they are worth these days.

In this system, the dreams and goals of many are sacrificed for the decadence and laziness of a few.

[GlassCannon]

Can we get a Dev Response on the State of the AI system?

Would like the following from Eladrin, or whoever is the head of AI for the following:

1) Is it being changed soon? Yes or no...

2) Is it still having issues in the latest alpha/beta? Yes or no...

3) Will you be attempting a Radiant system like the one in Oblivion, or using a House AI that behaves differently? Radiant or House...

4) Is the AI per Dungeon, Global, or Both? Pick one....

5) Are there any tweaks coming for Animal/Magical beast AI? The current AI for such is a travesty and aggravates legions of players I run with... Wolves, Worgs, Bats, Dogs, Rats... these are the game's worst monsters. They have 1 thing in common: Psychotic, lucid and otherwise nonsensical and ******** AI...

6) Are you going to make Scorpions less painful to pick a fight with by taking away some of their Invulnerability tricks?

7) Are you ever going to change the TripleCrit Ogre/Troll "Smash Attack" that they seem to be able to Cleave with, using a Crit Range of 08-20? Added a 0 to indicate they crit more often than not when smashing, and they are crippling to a shieldwall, or even to a set of tanks trying to take them down. They appear to be able to Triple Smash not less than 5 times in a row, even while stunned, then take a breather and do it all over again...

8) Are enemy casters ever going to actually use an SP pool or something like it, or are you going to allow a creature the spell-based damage potential of 186,941,227,448,514,772,916,004 in a level 1 quest?

9) Will things stop throwing things at walls and actually climb a ladder sometime soon? Yes/no. If yes, guesstimation? Use your best "Maybe"s and "We're thinking about it"s ;)

10) Will things start changing targets completely when their intended target is out of range? Example: IsPathClear? !PathClear: Change Target, SetIgnore<PlayerID>, SearchBestTarget, Attack... 5 seconds later CheckPathClear: IsPathClear<PlayerID>? !PathClear, ContinueLastAction, PathClear, Attack<PlayerID>...

11) For a Dev of a different type: Is the Game Engine due for a revamp within the next 2 years, and if so, when-ish do you think that maybe it might probably happen if things work out right?

[Vhlad]

Take a seat lad. I'm about to tell a tale of ole.

Around Mod 4, Turbine had the brilliant idea of implementing an AI system that they obviously did not understand how it would behave nor how it would operate. They chose to implement this AI system thinking it would be for the better of the game, but soon found it to be dumber than the AI that existed before it. Instead of trying to fix their blunder or get an operations manual for what they were taking under their wing, they dove head first into the ocean to try and dig through the whole engine to get to the root of the problem. They soon addressed the stupidity of the AI to stand in clouds that would kill them and made them ultra smart pathfinders that were bent on getting to the person who even created an obscuring mist even if the person was a mile away.

Don't ask how they knew where you were, some how, some way, they knew and they will find you. However...this had its disadvantages, as enemy monsters then became suckers for obvious traps, like the shield wall. Turbine then took the next step to address this problem by making them attack the shield wall one to two times and then going after the person they were chasing or who could just drop a solid fog and get their aggro. Now...Turbine has tried to address the AI and the population of Stormreach prays they've been able to make the dolts smarter, but then they tried out their new AI fix on our neighboring country of Lamannia and found that it made the enemy stupider than ever. You could walk up and kick the enemy upside the head and they stood there as if you didn't exist. Hopefully Turbine has learned from their mistakes and will learn that they really need to concentrate on the AI and make it more sentient, rather than just a moronic pathfinder that can't tell the wall of shields in front of it is actually a target it should be worried about. We can only sit and pray lad...pray that they will finally pull out the operations manual for the AI system they chose to use.

Yes, way back when the AI seemed MUCH better. They also made changes to hitboxes, making it harder for a player to register a melee hit on moving targets (and harder for an ememy monster to register a melee hit on a moving player!). Then they gave bows and some silly back away from player and whip out my bow AI to a bunch of melee mobs like trolls, orcs, giants. And they gave similar back away and cast AI to casters. AND this new back away and shoot my bow or back away and cast AI was set to a specific distance, such that the enemy would keep trying to back away to achieve X distance. i.e. they would keep running from a chasing player indefinitely. Then, to counter the resulting slower enemy reaction time, they gave faster movement speed and the ability to move while doing other actions to all the mobs [this is why we currently see mobs sliding all over the place; they're performing an action while moving that was originally designed and animated as a stationary action, so now they're sliding while doing it! (and/or they're moving at a faster speed than animated for, so they're doing a running+sliding combo)].

The current method of end-game play is a direct result of the new AI. Before they changed the AI, moving from mob to mob through a quest was fun because the mob didn't slide/moonwalk all over the place and/or back away constantly, all the while being exceedingly frustrating to hit due to the borked ability to hit moving targets with melee. And before hitting moving targets with melee became borked, a pack of monsters would annihilate you if you tried to run through them. Now, since the new AI is so terrible at hitting moving targets, and so frustrating to chase down to melee, players just run by everything. And since the monsters move faster it actually became more efficient to herd them all into (or in and out of) a deathtrap of firewall/acid fogs/CC/blade barriers (this also works well due to mobs current 'i know where you are and I will chase you forever or until I leesh' behaviour). And since monsters frequently enter 'run away to distance X and shoot/cast, and keep running if being chased until distance X is achieved' mode, it's now possible to box mobs in while they just stand there and run against the players [many trash mobs die before this is too noticeable, but on named mobs, such as sorjek, this ridiculous aspect of the new AI really stands out].

[Anarkius]

All very good points, but my question is who decided to give the 'mobs' the ole PnP spider climb spell as an innate ability. How are they able to catch ledges and cast/ range from them that I cannot?

I mean yeah it is sometimes fun jumping up and down for several moments trying to hit the kobold shaman that keeps climbing higher and higher on the dungeon wall to reach 'distance X'. Especially since my attack modifiers drop due to performing a 'moving attack'. Add in a couple of curses or 'globes of darkness' and its all fun.

Its not just the kobolds either I have seen skellies do it, hobgoblins, etc.

Gotta love the GIGO theory! :D:D:D

[Ron]

If I were working on a game, I wouldn't be playing one.
Speak for yourself :D

[7-day_Trial_Monkey]

welcome to turbine

Nonsense.

AI programing, which includes pathing, is the most computationaly expensive thing to implement in a game.

This is not a Turbine issue. It exists in all games. If it were so simple to make AI more complex, without turning the game into a slideshow it would have been done long ago and that super genius programmer would make Bill Gates look like a door to door calculator salesman.

[7-day_Trial_Monkey]

If I were working on a game, I wouldn't be playing one. It all comes down to one simple factor: Money. If you have it, you can do things you want to do, like make a new game or write a book or make a new engine that replaces combustion types so effectively that fossil fuel burners are scrapped as absolutely obsolete.

It all comes down to being narrow minded and unable to fathom the circumstances surrounding others' inability to act in certain manners, or inactivity that may pertain to a lifestyle that prohibits by means of either circumstantial disability(as in the case of a narcoleptic), or the extensive and progressive support of other persons. Not everyone has a free ride, or is paid nearly what they are worth these days.

In this system, the dreams and goals of many are sacrificed for the decadence and laziness of a few.

Bolding mine and highlights a perfect description of you! You are ridiculously narrow minded and are showing off just how much you are not a programmer and more specificaly, not a programmer who studied AI.

I've been studying and doing AI programming since 1983, how about you?

[baddax]

I was thinking it might be more of a hardware issue in which case this might help........ http://www.lanl.gov/news/index.php/fuseaction/home.story/story_id/13602

"To put this into perspective, if each of the 6 billion people on earth had a hand calculator and worked together on a calculation 24 hours per day, 365 days a year, it would take 46 years to do what Roadrunner would do in one day," the department said.

[Ron]

Nonsense.

AI programing, which includes pathing, is the most computationaly expensive thing to implement in a game.

This is not a Turbine issue. It exists in all games. If it were so simple to make AI more complex, without turning the game into a slideshow it would have been done long ago and that super genius programmer would make Bill Gates look like a door to door calculator salesman.

Indeed. And not only that, but in single player game, you are typically limited to just a few active AI at a time, and thus can get more processing time. In a MMOG, we're talking about 100's or 1000's of active AI, each clamoring for calcultion time from the server CPU, so they don't get the attention from the CPU the need to be smart (it's analagous to classroom sizes. The more students, the less individual attention the teacher can give each student, and the less intellegent the student ends up being. Same thing here).

That's why in a typical MMOG, the AI is dumber than a box of rocks, even compared to a typical single player game, which can afford more computation time per AI. In DDO, we actually do have one of the smarter (if the THE smartest) AIs in the MMOG industry. And of course, we've paid for it with lag as a consequence.

[Depravity]

ive noticed some stuff lately not following you through a blade barrier, or firewall, also, ive noticed that while leveling a couple of lowbies that the iron dogs in info is key actually run away from you, noticed oozes heading away from you as well.
who says halflings are intimidating looking :D heh

I fill time by solo stealth running for bloodstones, and the Thirsty One has been behaving oddly lately. My usual routine is two crossed FWs, unsenak, and trigger him. In teh recent past, he's been running out of the firewalls and just staring at me. At this point, the disintegrate usually drops him, so I can't swear what gets him out of that condition.

The info dogs are getting annoying. If you catch up, they'll try to bite you and then run off again. Interesting, but on the whole more annoying than anythign else.


I betcha a turbine point that if we ever do see really good AI in DDO, we're going to start getting threads about how broken it is that it chooses targets intelligently and won't sit still in a FW. :D

[Depravity]

Coding an AI is literally more difficult than raising a mentally ******** child.

Reason: A computer has an IQ of 0(ZERO). It cannot and does not think for itself, ever. It does exactly what you tell it, without deviation(this is why the Military loves computers so very much).

Problem: Without insurmountable Foresight and incalculable wisdom, a Developer will have an excessive amount of mind-tormenting difficulties in rapid succession when coding a Radiant Intelligent AI system.

Essentially, give the guys and gals at Turbine some slack here, it's hard enough coding an AI for each dungeon, let alone the entire game. What I think they need is a few solid 170+ IQ people in there helping with the AI.

Problem with that: Only a select few of us(community members, players etc) with IQ that high are even willing to help with the game. ***Or have the skill set to do so***

Preferable Solution: Be patient with them, and they will figure it out eventually. Until then, enjoy your occasional "free kill" ;)
You get +1 rep and a QFT, sir.

About a year ago, iirc, I saw an interview with the programmers of Killzone, talking about the latest work from their AI department. They were all sorts of excited about characters that could run around dynamically created debris - a situation not too dissimilar to figuring out how to get around a shield wall. That's using a full current generation console to handle it, btw. Even though the consoles are heavily slanted towards graphics, I'm willing to bet that that AI gets more flops per player there than we're likely to get from the servers.

If you guys want to have real fun with the AI, build some stealth characters and watch the alternating confusion and psychic abilities. Nothing like a critter that can't see you crouching, inviisible, around a corner that then homes in on you when you stand up, still invisible, still with a wall between you.

[Depravity]

All very good points, but my question is who decided to give the 'mobs' the ole PnP spider climb spell as an innate ability. How are they able to catch ledges and cast/ range from them that I cannot?


If you watch, there's no "jump" animation. My guess would be that, to save on processor time, things don't decide whether or not to jump, then pilot through a jump, they just slide up onto any surface that is adjacent to their current one and lower than whatever passes for a jump score on them allows. You're seeing them finding flaws in the dungeon geometry. Fot those that have played Worms a lot - think the "magic pixle" your last ninja rope stuck in instead of the chunk of dirt you were aiming at.

Myself, I run around a corner/find cover and wait for them to chase me, then chop 'em down.

[Ranmaru2]

Both you and the person you quoted know so much about AI.. why aren't you coding your own game?

AI is not something you can just turn off and on in a little set of code instead of the millions of lines of code that is in this game.

Do us all a favor and stop assuming that Turbine is out to get us players in some huge conspiracy and they that they do not know what they are doing... as apparently they do as they actually HAVE a game that is playable at this moment.. which is more then I can say for anyone else on these boards.

where do you get some crazy conspiracy theory out of my post which was more for laughs than anything?

I don't pretend to know code, but I know a few people who know how to code very well, including someone working on the Legions game over on Instant action and do ask them about AI coding. Although, it doesn't really matter if I know coding for AI or not, considering you can point out a plethora of games that (even multiplayer games) that have enemy monsters try to AVOID dangerous obstacles but still get to you rather than act like the WF in VoN 4 and dive head first into a pit to fall into lava. Hell, even basic AI on Little Big Planet at least has a shutdown protocol since they have a "Trigger Radius" for them to actually chase Sack Boy when he comes near, but for some reason the AI here does not have anything like this even if they're unable to get to you ala Monastery, Chains of Flame, or Sleeping Dust. SOLUTION: If enemy is not in trigger radius X for Y seconds and isn't visible, then shut down aggro and return to rest state.

Did you even read reports of what happened when they tried to first implement the shut down pathing script for the AI on Lamannia? You walked up to a mob who would sit there and let you kick him in the balls and still not react to anything.

I'm sorry, but since Mod 4, many of the AI mob changes they've tried to implement have horribly borked something else about the AI.

[Donnie]

Ranmarus summary was sound imo. Not saying coding AI is easy, but it was a good overall in brief, showing that AI has been a longstanding issue and one that they have tried to fix repeatedly.

[transtemporal]

they really need to concentrate on the AI and make it more sentient

This is my favorite part of the thread. Somewhere, a turbine developer is slapping his/her forehead saying "Of course, why didn't WE think of that?!"

[VirieSquichie]

Nonsense.

AI programing, which includes pathing, is the most computationaly expensive thing to implement in a game.

This is not a Turbine issue. It exists in all games. If it were so simple to make AI more complex, without turning the game into a slideshow it would have been done long ago and that super genius programmer would make Bill Gates look like a door to door calculator salesman.


Bolding mine and highlights a perfect description of you! You are ridiculously narrow minded and are showing off just how much you are not a programmer and more specificaly, not a programmer who studied AI.

I've been studying and doing AI programming since 1983, how about you?

Although I've done some branching programming that would be similar in complexity to the scripting monsters in dungeons have, mostly I'm taking from my experiences in the 80's where a Commodore 64 could do realtime "AI" on many opponents simultaneously while also doing all the calculations for object collision and everything else. If you've been doing programming since '83, you should have had a chance to see some of what I'm talking about.

If modern game companies like Turbine can't at least match that level of complexity with the incredibly powerful computers we have to work with today (as compared to a lowly C64) they are either:
1) not hiring the right people
2) giving the right people a really lousy processing environment to work with
3) not letting their people have any time to work on monster scripting
Personally, I suspect it's mostly #3 with a side order of #2. I also suspect they're using the same servers for multiple things and there are some tasks you simply shouldn't double up on. Instance servers need to be *only* instance servers, and have their load balanced generously. Most companies scrimp on hardware because some executive sees < 20% average CPU utilization and thinks that's a waste. Ha!