You know you might have picked the wrong class when ...

[Hafeal]

... when you can't even get that class as a gold seal hireling in the DDO Store.

Running Monastary with my Cleric, go to pick-up a rogue from the DDO Store - none. LOL. Guess what ... no monks or bards either. Plenty of Clerics, Wizards, Barbarians, Sorcs, and Fighters though - all shapes and sizes.

I knew we knew Monks and Rogues were gimp but did the devs have to make it so obvious? And what is with the Bard hate? I guess they are too powerful and will open them up when they make the elusive 17-20 level hirelings available. :eek:

[Arianrhod]

You can't buy ranger hirelings either.

[EKKM]

I believe rogues were excluded for two reasons:

- They had trouble with the AI re traps
- If they were at all effective it would greatly reduce the desire for people to have a real rogue in the party.

[Hafeal]

You can't buy ranger hirelings either.

I forgot to mention that. Well, you know ranged combat ... why would you ever want a ranger? :D

[Hafeal]

I believe rogues were excluded for two reasons:

- They had trouble with the AI re traps
- If they were at all effective it would greatly reduce the desire for people to have a real rogue in the party.

I have not heard that AI is an issue with the rogues, do have a post anywhere on that? I would think AI would be a bigger issue with bards if anything. If there have been AI issues on the hirelings, I must have missed it so if you have any links, can you post them here?

Doesn't any class offering reduce the need for that class in the party? :confused:

[Visty]

Doesn't any class offering reduce the need for that class in the party? :confused:

no, as hrieling clerics suck at healing and hireling wiz/sorc at casting
the melees also suck as they have no hp nor cant deal dmg (at higher lvls that is)

disarming a trap isnt difficult, as its just a dieroll, so rogue henchmen would reduce the need for rogues

[Arianrhod]

no, as hrieling clerics suck at healing and hireling wiz/sorc at casting
the melees also suck as they have no hp nor cant deal dmg (at higher lvls that is)

disarming a trap isnt difficult, as its just a dieroll, so rogue henchmen would reduce the need for rogues

Not if rogue hirelings are as poorly equipped as the other hireling classes...imagine a rogue with no +INT, +Search or +DD items, and ordinary (or maybe Masterwork) thieves tools...). Frankly, you'd have any rogues in the party racing to get the trap before the hireling could blow the box ;)

[EKKM]

I have not heard that AI is an issue with the rogues, do have a post anywhere on that? I would think AI would be a bigger issue with bards if anything. If there have been AI issues on the hirelings, I must have missed it so if you have any links, can you post them here?

Doesn't any class offering reduce the need for that class in the party? :confused:

Just going by memory. But think about trying to get a hireling rogue to do the STK trap or any trap with the box on the other side of the trap given what you know about hirelings AI.

I guess any class offering does reduce the need but lets be honest, a real rogue is only required in a very few quests (did not say they were not desirable in others). A real arcane, real melee or real cleric is required in so many quests that the hireling do not have any perceived affect on the demand.

As to bards, rangers etc - don't know. A songbot would be handy though....

Edit: Maybe hireling ranged - rangers have the same infinite range, arcing, auto hit, high AC, high HP as the mob archers so they thought they would be overpowered :)

[Vivanto]

Mehh, we have hireling since almost a year now and I could only use them effectively to solo non-solo dungeons, or duo xorian, in rare cases to reset dungeons...

[Hafeal]

Not if rogue hirelings are as poorly equipped as the other hireling classes...imagine a rogue with no +INT, +Search or +DD items, and ordinary (or maybe Masterwork) thieves tools...). Frankly, you'd have any rogues in the party racing to get the trap before the hireling could blow the box ;)

+1; great point, I had even considered equipment issues. Of course, you notice the lack of striders on hirelings ... among other things.

I noticed with the sorc I did pick-up that they must lack spell penetration items as well because he had trouble landing spells on normal setting at times whereas I haven't seen that with players runs sorcs.

[Hafeal]

Mehh, we have hireling since almost a year now and I could only use them effectively to solo non-solo dungeons, or duo xorian, in rare cases to reset dungeons...

Well, with Normal being the new Solo ... :p

[Strakeln]

I knew we knew Monks and Rogues were gimpPints would like to have a word with your best melee ;)

[Hafeal]

Pints would like to have a word with your best melee ;)

*whistles politely and starts to slink off*

LOL.

I was just playin'! :p

[VirieSquichie]

+1; great point, I had even considered equipment issues. Of course, you notice the lack of striders on hirelings ... among other things.

I noticed with the sorc I did pick-up that they must lack spell penetration items as well because he had trouble landing spells on normal setting at times whereas I haven't seen that with players runs sorcs.

The hirelings' lack of meaningful equipment is why they're little better than a bit of ablative armor. A hireling rogue would be a disaster even on Normal, and even if they COULD keep up with the party. :p

The hireling casters almost always do the opposite activity from what they should. I've seen them lob spells at single trash mobs that a PC-wielded melee weapon would chop apart in two strokes, and get out their crossbows when a horde of kobolds were descending upon the (short-man even with hirelings) party like locusts on wheat. The hireling clerics fare little better, since they do what all bad battleclerics do and wade in first, ask questions like "CC or healing anyone?" later...

My thoughts originally were that hirelings were meant to supplant short-man parties. Now I think they were created so people wouldn't mind the bad PUGs so much now that they have something worse to compare them to.

[Hafeal]

Good points. With Normal being the new Solo though, no matter how "gimp" they are, you would think a couple of gold seal hireling or two would be enough for almost anything. Not having access to all classes just make me shake my head.

I have been meaning to look if you can get regular hirelings as Monks, Rogues, Rangers or Bards ... just goes to show how often I have used them ... for some of the very reasons you mention.


The hirelings' lack of meaningful equipment is why they're little better than a bit of ablative armor. A hireling rogue would be a disaster even on Normal, and even if they COULD keep up with the party. :p

The hireling casters almost always do the opposite activity from what they should. I've seen them lob spells at single trash mobs that a PC-wielded melee weapon would chop apart in two strokes, and get out their crossbows when a horde of kobolds were descending upon the (short-man even with hirelings) party like locusts on wheat. The hireling clerics fare little better, since they do what all bad battleclerics do and wade in first, ask questions like "CC or healing anyone?" later...

My thoughts originally were that hirelings were meant to supplant short-man parties. Now I think they were created so people wouldn't mind the bad PUGs so much now that they have something worse to compare them to.

[Strakeln]

I have not heard that AI is an issue with the rogues, do have a post anywhere on that? I would think AI would be a bigger issue with bards if anything. If there have been AI issues on the hirelings, I must have missed it so if you have any links, can you post them here?

Doesn't any class offering reduce the need for that class in the party? :confused:
I've long suspected the real issue was a rogue uprising. Many people forget that the rogue can be the highest DPS class in the game, and instead see them as nothing more than trapmonkies.

As such, in the past there have been many calls for making traps hurt more, to make rogues more "necessary" for groups... and the Devs have responded. Traps were always a joke before, but now some elite traps can take down even the meatiest barbarian in one shot.

Adding rogue hirelings might bring back cries of foul play from PC rogues.

Another possibility is that some traps require more than simple AI. Think about the VoN 5 lightning trap and what DDO AI would do with that (hint: diediediediediediediediediediediediediedie). While there are ways around that, they're not really what people are thinking when they contract someone out to do a job.

[Mercules]

A Monks usefulness comes not from him smacking things, but the buffs he can add to the party. Things like the Fists of Light which can supplement healing while doing damage. He can fire off a Walk of the Sun which gives everyone a Morale Bonus to Attacks, Saves, and Skills. He can Rez with Rise of the Phoenix. All of these things can be gained elsewhere, but the Monk can do it just off Ki which he generates by doing his other job of hitting things.

I can't imagine trying to get an NPC Monk to fire off Fire, Good, Fire - Walk of the Sun when we need a boost. I also bet they would do stupid things like get Good, Good charged up and take a bit of damage then drink a potion instead of hitting Good - Healing Ki


Rogues are like that too. Click on Uncanny Dodge, jump up on a box and jump as far through the trap as you can so you can reach the box on the far side. Now switch to the proper gear and search out the trap. Possibly switch again and Disable the trap. Switch back to fighting gear and use Diplomacy to loose agro when you gain it.

Some of these classes are too fiddly for an NPC AI.

Fighter AI - Attack things and occasionally Trip or Intimidate
Cleric AI - Heal damage to owner, or party, occasionally melee
Wiz/Sorc AI - Throw spells run around alot
Barbarian AI - See Fighter and add in RAGE

These classes have a LOT more too them as well, but occasionally you can "get by" with them. For example: Sorc with Firewall in his commands. We move up to a doorway, block it after telling him to stand back from the door a good way. Throw Someone aggros the mobs and gets them headed to the door and once one gets there we target it and have the Sorc cast Firewall. Agro switches to Sorc and the mobs try to push through us to get to him and roast.

[redspecter23]

I'm sure rogues were left out for all the reasons posted above and more. Most of all, rogues get the majority of their dps from class granted sneak attack. Since all the other gimp hirelings are using masterwork weapons (at least it seems that way), the rogue hireling would actually dish out very reasonable damage with masterwork daggers as long as you can keep aggro off of him. Not saying it would be all that effective, but for some reason the developers want the hirelings to be little more than a speed bump in most situations. The mere thought of a melee hireling with some sort of dps probably scared them off.

It's really a shame that hirelings potential is completely wasted as they could be very useful buff/healbots IF they were given good castable buffs instead of what seems to be the same mix of spells on nearly every one. Really, I'd buy a lv 16 ranger hireling just for barkskin and a high level hireling bard would probably be a passable singer when you can't get a real bard. I haven't searched the hirelings all that much, but do any of the clerics carry resist energy, freedom of movement or death ward?

[Dark_Helmet]

... when you can't even get that class as a gold seal hireling in the DDO Store.

Running Monastary with my Cleric, go to pick-up a rogue from the DDO Store - none. LOL. Guess what ... no monks or bards either. Plenty of Clerics, Wizards, Barbarians, Sorcs, and Fighters though - all shapes and sizes.

I knew we knew Monks and Rogues were gimp but did the devs have to make it so obvious? And what is with the Bard hate? I guess they are too powerful and will open them up when they make the elusive 17-20 level hirelings available. :eek:

Until you program in where you can "take control" of them at critical junctures and control where the go and what they do (not to mention give them proper equipment), the hirelings will pretty much fail to be more than non-combat buffers, statues (stand on a trigger stone), and stones to be carried.

And, The store is taking the cleric "heal shrine" out of the useful equation as well (i.e. when people park them at the start of quests, do some fighting, then call them to heal them when they are done killing mobs).

[Freeman]

I love bringing Frenzy, the level 2 WF barb, into lowbie quests. As long as he's around, you never have to worry about breaking anything. He's got it covered. Yes, it was a little frustrating when I was getting ganked by a half-dozen hobgoblins while he gleefully tore through the various crates and barrels nearby. However, once I came to appreciate the simple joy it brings him to break stuff, I would just summon him at the beginning and collect the ransack bonus at the end. If only all barbarians were like him: He never zergs ahead(Unless there's a barrel on the other side of the enemies, in which case he runs past them), and he rarely needs healing.(Since everything is beating on me while he's smashing stuff two rooms back)

[Dark_Helmet]

I love bringing Frenzy, the level 2 WF barb, into lowbie quests. As long as he's around, you never have to worry about breaking anything. He's got it covered. Yes, it was a little frustrating when I was getting ganked by a half-dozen hobgoblins while he gleefully tore through the various crates and barrels nearby. However, once I came to appreciate the simple joy it brings him to break stuff, I would just summon him at the beginning and collect the ransack bonus at the end. If only all barbarians were like him: He never zergs ahead(Unless there's a barrel on the other side of the enemies, in which case he runs past them), and he rarely needs healing.(Since everything is beating on me while he's smashing stuff two rooms back)

Too bad you can't take him into An Explosive Situation. Boom! Boom! :D