A possible change to help older raids

[Ranmaru2]

In light of the new mod and the ever persistent subject of "please give us more varieties of named loot," I purpose a change to the loot that inhabits older raids - DQ, Titan, and Dragon. Most of these items in the raids are glorified vendor trash at this point when you have level 13-16s running these raids on a regular basis for a very small list of items (Bolded and italicized below - italicized = maybe items):

Plane of Night

* Azure Necklace of Prophecy - (Necklace) Superior Magnetism III, Lightning Resistance
* Belt of the Mroranon - (Belt) Strength +6, Moderate Fortification
* Cloak of the Silver Concord - (Cloak) Charisma +2, Haggle +10, Diplomacy +10, Persuasion
* Crimson Necklace of Prophecy - (Necklace) Superior Combustion III, Fire Resistance
* Docent of Grace - (Docent) +2 Docent, Dexterity +5, Tumble +5, Balance +5
* Dragon's Eye - (Trinket) Magi, Superior Efficacy V
* Hammer of Life - (Weapon) +4 Maul, Natural Armor Bonus +2, Heal +10, Repair +10, Restoration (1/rest)
* Helm of the Mroranon - (Helmet) Wisdom +6, Intimidate +7
* Ironweave Robe - (Robe) Armor Bonus +5, Wizardry II, Greater Magnestism V
* Kundarak Delving Boots - (Boots) Freedom of Movement, Move Silently +5
* Kundarak Delving Goggles - (Goggles) Blindness Immunity, Spot +10, Disable Device +10
* Kundarak Delving Suit - (Armor) +5 Chainmail (Max Dex: 6), Mithral, Silent Moves, Search +5
* Kundarak Warding Bracers - (Bracers) Constitution +3, Resistance +3, Protection +3
* Kundarak Warding Shield - (Shield) +5 Heavy Steel Shield, Resistance +2
* Ring of the Silver Concord - (Ring) Charisma +4, Protection +2, Command
* Ruby Encrusted Gauntlets - (Gloves) Flamestrike (CL:15, 1/rest)
* Silver Necklace of Prophecy - (Necklace) Superior Glaciation IV, Cold Resistance
* Stonemeld Plate Armor - (Armor) +4 Full Plate, Camoflauge (CL:1, 5/rest), DR 5/-
* Sword of Shadow - (Weapon) +5 Greatsword (Crit: 18-20/x3), Adamantine
* +2 stat tomes (bound)

The Titan Awakes

* Battle Coin - (Trinket) Heal Moderate (CL:3, 3/rest), To-Hit Bonus +1
* Belt of Brute Strength - (Belt) Strength +6, Greater False Life
* Bereavement - (Weapon) +5 Battleaxe, seeker +10, Keen
* Bravo's Sword - (Weapon) +3 Shortsword, Sneak Attack Bonus +5
* Centurion Armor - (Armor) +5 Full Plate (Max Dex:2, ACP: -4), Reflex Save +4
* Chattering Ring - (Ring) Spot +13, Dodge Bonus +3, Move Silently -10
* Gyroscopic Boots of Striding - (Boots) Balance +10, Striding +30%
* Insulated Armor - (Armor) +4 Half Plate (SF: 10%), Mithral, Lightning Resistance, Lightnign Bolt Ward
* Jungle Cloak - (Cloak) Regrowth (Cl:1, 1/rest), Hide +10
* Nullcloth Gown - (Robe) Spell Resistance (20), Magical Null, Cold Resistance, LIghtning Resistance, Fire Resistance
* Rattle Charm - (Necklace) Greater Acid Lore, Greater Sonic Lore, Proof against Poison
* Seven Fingered Gloves - (Gloves) Disable Device +11, Open Lock +11, Use Magic Device +5, Arcane Casting Dexterity
* Shining Crescents - (Weapon) +5 Sickle (2-handed, Base dmg: 2d6), Vertigo +6, Tendon Slice 6%, Adamantine
* Skull Fetish Mask - (Helmet) Charisma +6, Void Lore
* Titanic Docent - (Docent) +5 Docent, Titan Shield (CL:10, 1/rest)
* Visor of Concentration - (Goggles) Spot -7, Concentration +10, Repair Lore, Ice Lore, Reconstruction V, Glaciation V
* +2 stat tomes (bound)

Zawabi's Revenge

* Bracers of the Demon's Consort - (Bracers) Demonic Curse, Demonic Shield, Demonic Retribution <<Hidden Effect: Demon Consort>>
* Bramble-Casters - (Gloves) Greater Spearblock, Thorn Guard
* Chaosblade - (Weapon) +5 Khopesh, Lesser Vampirism, Anarchic, True Chaos
* Cloak of the Zephyr - (Cloak) Blurry, Invisibility (1/rest)
* Demon Scale Armor - (Armor) +5 Scale Mail(Light Armor, SF:10%), Improved Lightning Resistance, Proof Against Poison
* Dustless Boots - (Boots) STriding 20%, Move Silently +15, Hide +11
* Greenblade - (Weapon) +5 Kukri, Greater Arcane Lore, Force Burst
* Lion-headed Belt Buckle - (Belt) Immunity to Fear, Roar, Strength +4, Constitution +4
* Marilith Chain - (Armor) +5 Chainmail (ACP: 0, SF: 20%), Taint of Evil, Seeker +6, Shatter +6, DR 5/Good or Lawful
* Pouch of Jerky - (Trinket) Eat Jerky (CL:10, 3/rest), Greater False Life, Heal +11
* Sandstorm Goggles - (Goggles) Blindness Ward, True Seeing
* Seal of the Earth - (Ring) Stoneskin (CL:12, 3/rest), Natural Armor Bonus +3, Acid Resistance
* Shining Crest of St. Markus - (Helmet) Deathblock, Improved Devotion VI, Lesser Healing Lore
* Staff of Arcane Power - (Weapon) +2 Quarterstaff, Good Luck +2, Spell Selection for Staff of Arcane Power (CL:12, 25/rest) [Wizard, Sorcerer, Bard only, UMD:26]
* Storm - (Weapon) +4 Heavy Crossbow (Base dmg: 1d12), Shocking Burst, Thundering, To-Hit Bonus +4, Keen
* Torc of Prince-Raiyum-de II - (Necklace) Greater Spell Penetration VI, Wizardry III, Transform Kinetic Energy
* +2 stat tomes (bound)

This is a total of 22 items (20 Yes, and 2 maybe) that people run these raids to acquire out of 52+ (didn't add in all different tome types) items that exist. This creates quite a frustration for people when any of the other non-bolded items drop within a chest, so I propose the following:

The other items that are not bolded or italicized should be made bound to account items instead of Bound to Character when picked up out of the warded chest.

What effect would this have?

1) More raiding at level. Currently the DQ and Titan lay dormant until a band of level 16 adventurers come pounding their way in to mop the floors with the Marilith and giant war machine, loot and plunder and then leave for another three days. Not many, if any, at level groups will pop up in the lfm for the Titan or the DQ (Dragon has them, but that's a questionable experience as to whether people are capable) from what I've noticed. If these items were bound to account and could be used, then the items would....

2) Get more use with the effects they give at their appropriate levels. The items in these raids are supposed to be better than anything you could acquire at level, unless you've got the best luck in the world with RR items. The effects on them are usually unique to much of what could be a) cast or b) found, giving them a greater weight for usage over general equipment. To enable the items as Bound to Account, you could actually start to see people using, say, the Battle Coin, Centurion Armor, Null Cloth Gown, Chaosblade, and Stonemeld Plate Armor at lower levels instead of having higher level characters putting it in the bank as a random trophy item.

These items could become great twink equipment and would actually then bear some weight to casual players who might be able to get into a DQ, Dragon, or Titan with some guildies or friends for their lowbies. This would allow more trading at warded chests of these items and maybe even stimulate players to trade other items for the item sitting in the chest.

Discuss....

As a side note, how about a slight upgrade to the drop rate of items in tempest spine? I've run the raid about 10 times now and only seen the Elemental Breast Plate out of all the chests that exist in that quest. It might give it a little more popularity as well, unless the item drop rate is pretty good and I just don't run it enough?

[sirgog]

On the main suggestion - I like it, just to get more people into those raids.



As a side note, how about a slight upgrade to the drop rate of items in tempest spine? I've run the raid about 10 times now and only seen the Elemental Breast Plate out of all the chests that exist in that quest. It might give it a little more popularity as well, unless the item drop rate is pretty good and I just don't run it enough?

On this, Tempest's Spine has the same loot system as normal quests, and most level 10+ quests have low drop rates on named items. (I think every individual item has a 1% drop rate, I may be wrong, I've personally looted a Maelstrom and two of the junk items). TS is part of many common powerlevelling paths and is a fun quest, so I find it gets run a fair bit, but only at peak times, when ten to twelve level-appropriate characters are on simultaneously.

I recommend that if you hit level 9 during peak times, you immediately try to form a group for TS normal then hard then elite, and make it a level 8-11 or 9-12 group.

[SableShadow]

I have difficulty seeing how bound-to-account would increase raiding at level. Twinking, sure.

[mediocresurgeon]

I have difficulty seeing how bound-to-account would increase raiding at level. Twinking, sure.

/agree.

Please explain how making the trash loot more desirable will increase raiding at-level.

[Aranticus]

In light of the new mod and the ever persistent subject of "please give us more varieties of named loot," I purpose a change to the loot that inhabits older raids - DQ, Titan, and Dragon. Most of these items in the raids are glorified vendor trash at this point when you have level 13-16s running these raids on a regular basis for a very small list of items (Bolded and italicized below - italicized = maybe items):

Plane of Night

* Azure Necklace of Prophecy - (Necklace) Superior Magnetism III, Lightning Resistance (remove or improve)
* Belt of the Mroranon - (Belt) Strength +6, Moderate Fortification
* Cloak of the Silver Concord - (Cloak) Charisma +2, Haggle +10, Diplomacy +10, Persuasion
* Crimson Necklace of Prophecy - (Necklace) Superior Combustion III, Fire Resistance (remove or improve)
* Docent of Grace - (Docent) +2 Docent, Dexterity +5, Tumble +5, Balance +5
* Dragon's Eye - (Trinket) Magi, Superior Efficacy V
* Hammer of Life - (Weapon) +4 Maul, Natural Armor Bonus +2, Heal +10, Repair +10, Restoration (1/rest)
* Helm of the Mroranon - (Helmet) Wisdom +6, Intimidate +7
* Ironweave Robe - (Robe) Armor Bonus +5, Wizardry II, Greater Magnestism V (remove or improve)
* Kundarak Delving Boots - (Boots) Freedom of Movement, Move Silently +5
* Kundarak Delving Goggles - (Goggles) Blindness Immunity, Spot +10, Disable Device +10
* Kundarak Delving Suit - (Armor) +5 Chainmail (Max Dex: 6), Mithral, Silent Moves, Search +5
* Kundarak Warding Bracers - (Bracers) Constitution +3, Resistance +3, Protection +3
* Kundarak Warding Shield - (Shield) +5 Heavy Steel Shield, Resistance +2
* Ring of the Silver Concord - (Ring) Charisma +4, Protection +2, Command
* Ruby Encrusted Gauntlets - (Gloves) Flamestrike (CL:15, 1/rest) (remove or improve)
* Silver Necklace of Prophecy - (Necklace) Superior Glaciation IV, Cold Resistance (remove or improve)
* Stonemeld Plate Armor - (Armor) +4 Full Plate, Camoflauge (CL:1, 5/rest), DR 5/-
* Sword of Shadow - (Weapon) +5 Greatsword (Crit: 18-20/x3), Adamantine
* +2 stat tomes (bound)

The Titan Awakes

* Battle Coin - (Trinket) Heal Moderate (CL:3, 3/rest), To-Hit Bonus +1
* Belt of Brute Strength - (Belt) Strength +6, Greater False Life
* Bereavement - (Weapon) +5 Battleaxe, seeker +10, Keen
* Bravo's Sword - (Weapon) +3 Shortsword, Sneak Attack Bonus +5
* Centurion Armor - (Armor) +5 Full Plate (Max Dex:2, ACP: -4), Reflex Save +4
* Chattering Ring - (Ring) Spot +13, Dodge Bonus +3, Move Silently -10
* Gyroscopic Boots of Striding - (Boots) Balance +10, Striding +30%
* Insulated Armor - (Armor) +4 Half Plate (SF: 10%), Mithral, Lightning Resistance, Lightnign Bolt Ward
* Jungle Cloak - (Cloak) Regrowth (Cl:1, 1/rest), Hide +10
* Nullcloth Gown - (Robe) Spell Resistance (20), Magical Null, Cold Resistance, LIghtning Resistance, Fire Resistance (remove or improve)
* Rattle Charm - (Necklace) Greater Acid Lore, Greater Sonic Lore, Proof against Poison (remove or improve)
* Seven Fingered Gloves - (Gloves) Disable Device +11, Open Lock +11, Use Magic Device +5, Arcane Casting Dexterity
* Shining Crescents - (Weapon) +5 Sickle (2-handed, Base dmg: 2d6), Vertigo +6, Tendon Slice 6%, Adamantine (remove or improve)
* Skull Fetish Mask - (Helmet) Charisma +6, Void Lore
* Titanic Docent - (Docent) +5 Docent, Titan Shield (CL:10, 1/rest)
* Visor of Concentration - (Goggles) Spot -7, Concentration +10, Repair Lore, Ice Lore, Reconstruction V, Glaciation V (remove or improve)
* +2 stat tomes (bound)

Zawabi's Revenge

* Bracers of the Demon's Consort - (Bracers) Demonic Curse, Demonic Shield, Demonic Retribution <<Hidden Effect: Demon Consort>>
* Bramble-Casters - (Gloves) Greater Spearblock, Thorn Guard
* Chaosblade - (Weapon) +5 Khopesh, Lesser Vampirism, Anarchic, True Chaos
* Cloak of the Zephyr - (Cloak) Blurry, Invisibility (1/rest)
* Demon Scale Armor - (Armor) +5 Scale Mail(Light Armor, SF:10%), Improved Lightning Resistance, Proof Against Poison (remove or improve)
* Dustless Boots - (Boots) STriding 20%, Move Silently +15, Hide +11
* Greenblade - (Weapon) +5 Kukri, Greater Arcane Lore, Force Burst
* Lion-headed Belt Buckle - (Belt) Immunity to Fear, Roar, Strength +4, Constitution +4
* Marilith Chain - (Armor) +5 Chainmail (ACP: 0, SF: 20%), Taint of Evil, Seeker +6, Shatter +6, DR 5/Good or Lawful
* Pouch of Jerky - (Trinket) Eat Jerky (CL:10, 3/rest), Greater False Life, Heal +11
* Sandstorm Goggles - (Goggles) Blindness Ward, True Seeing
* Seal of the Earth - (Ring) Stoneskin (CL:12, 3/rest), Natural Armor Bonus +3, Acid Resistance
* Shining Crest of St. Markus - (Helmet) Deathblock, Improved Devotion VI, Lesser Healing Lore (remove or improve)
* Staff of Arcane Power - (Weapon) +2 Quarterstaff, Good Luck +2, Spell Selection for Staff of Arcane Power (CL:12, 25/rest) [Wizard, Sorcerer, Bard only, UMD:26]
* Storm - (Weapon) +4 Heavy Crossbow (Base dmg: 1d12), Shocking Burst, Thundering, To-Hit Bonus +4, Keen (remove or improve)
* Torc of Prince-Raiyum-de II - (Necklace) Greater Spell Penetration VI, Wizardry III, Transform Kinetic Energy
* +2 stat tomes (bound)

This is a total of 22 items (20 Yes, and 2 maybe) that people run these raids to acquire out of 52+ (didn't add in all different tome types) items that exist. This creates quite a frustration for people when any of the other non-bolded items drop within a chest, so I propose the following:

The other items that are not bolded or italicized should be made bound to account items instead of Bound to Character when picked up out of the warded chest.

What effect would this have?

1) More raiding at level. Currently the DQ and Titan lay dormant until a band of level 16 adventurers come pounding their way in to mop the floors with the Marilith and giant war machine, loot and plunder and then leave for another three days. Not many, if any, at level groups will pop up in the lfm for the Titan or the DQ (Dragon has them, but that's a questionable experience as to whether people are capable) from what I've noticed. If these items were bound to character and could be used, then the items would....

2) Get more use with the effects they give at their appropriate levels. The items in these raids are supposed to be better than anything you could acquire at level, unless you've got the best luck in the world with RR items. The effects on them are usually unique to much of what could be a) cast or b) found, giving them a greater weight for usage over general equipment. To enable the items as Bound to Account, you could actually start to see people using, say, the Battle Coin, Centurion Armor, Null Cloth Gown, Chaosblade, and Stonemeld Plate Armor at lower levels instead of having higher level characters putting it in the bank as a random trophy item.

These items could become great twink equipment and would actually then bear some weight to casual players who might be able to get into a DQ, Dragon, or Titan with some guildies or friends for their lowbies. This would allow more trading at warded chests of these items and maybe even stimulate players to trade other items for the item sitting in the chest.

Discuss....

As a side note, how about a slight upgrade to the drop rate of items in tempest spine? I've run the raid about 10 times now and only seen the Elemental Breast Plate out of all the chests that exist in that quest. It might give it a little more popularity as well, unless the item drop rate is pretty good and I just don't run it enough?

problem is many of these loot are not even considered by most as loot as they are either easily replaceable, or have something in the same slot that is better or not going to be used

[Vivanto]

problem is many of these loot are not even considered by most as loot as they are either easily replaceable, or have something in the same slot that is better or not going to be used

Many... but have to disagree with some of the items you "highlighted", you hit some that are actually still decent under certain circumstance, even if they wouldn't be improved, completely removing them would be bad as well. While you left trash like the pink docent untouched ^^

[Ranmaru2]

I have difficulty seeing how bound-to-account would increase raiding at level. Twinking, sure.

I figured it would give the raids more appeal to continuously do as you'd get some items that the toon you are on would be able to use and start your completion counts early and still be able to acquire something your account can use. It's more of a side effect that could come up from the change.

[Borror0]

The other items that are not bolded or italicized should be made bound to account items instead of Bound to Character when picked up out of the warded chest.
I have a different suggestion.

I would do the following to all raid four levels lower than the cap:

Remove the timer or at least shorten it to 18 hours
Significantly increase the drop rate so that it takes very few repetition to acquire the item
Consider dropping the drop rate tomes or flat out removing them those raids' loot tables
Change the 20th reward to 5th completion reward and display full list (excluding tomes)
(Optional) Nerf or increase the ML of some items under the reasoning that they are just too strong for their ML
(Optional) Implement items that are better than the items you put in bold but found at current cap

Those steps would achieve your stated goals far more effectively than what you suggested. As SableShadow pointed out, making those items bound to account will not lead to more at-level raiding. It may lead to more twinking, yes, but certainly not more at-level raiding.

The reason we don't see at-level raiding is that those quest were designed as capped content but no longer are.

There are two kinds of character progression in an MMO: natural character progression and artificial character progression.

The first category entails that are developed for characters that have not reached the elder game. Their purpose is to let your character develop slowly in front of your eyes. Good examples of natural character progression are character levels, which are slowly acquired through gaining XP. Another one would be the gear acquired as you level up, quickly replacing each other.

I call them natural because we are used to characters becoming stronger as we progress through the game.

The other category is the character progression that happens once you have hit all the content that the game studios has released but still want to keep your interest while they develop more content to keep you entertained. Raid loot falls under that category, along with other grind like Module 4's and Module 5's pre-raid turn ins. Favor is another example that we can find in DDO.

They are called artificial because they are used to make status quo feel less static, to present a false impression of movement or progression.

How you design the two is quite different, usually.

The problem with the older raids is that they are still built as artificial character progression, when they should have been changed into natural a long, long time ago. We outlevel those grinds too quickly and most of the loot found in it becomes useless to our character's eyes.

Before some make a comment about "removing the grind is bad for the game", I'll point out that Turbine implements more artificial character progression (ie raid grinds) to keep the most hardcore players entertained. Therefore, removing the previous grinds won't be detrimental to the game. Au contraire, while you want artificial character progressions to take a long time to keep players interested between each update - which can be several months later, you still want to keep the amount repetition to a minimum as much as possible in order to avoid frustrating the players. While players can tolerate and sometimes even enjoy repetitions, there is such a thing as "too much grind".

The older raids should be changed to be adventure we do while we level.

Then, they would get some play!

[SableShadow]

Honestly, I'd rather they just buff the gear, crank up the CRs 'n DCs, and move all the raids back up to the current endgame.

It was written as endgame content, it works as endgame content, why not put it in the endgame?

[Grosbeak07]

Honestly, I'd rather they just buff the gear, crank up the CRs 'n DCs, and move all the raids back up to the current endgame.

It was written as endgame content, it works as endgame content, why not put it in the endgame?

I could get behind something like that. Take the VoN's for example, I would leave VoN 1-4 in the 8-10 range, still require it for flagging (but once its done be perma-flagged, I know Turbine is working on it........;)), but then take the pre-raid crank it up to level 19 and the actual Dragon fight to 20.

[Borror0]

It was written as endgame content, it works as endgame content, why not put it in the endgame?
I would say two reasons:

Velah, DQ, Titan and Reaver are very poor design. It makes very little sense to bring to end game content poorly design raids.
Most of it makes little sense from a story line point of view, if I remember correctly.

[SableShadow]

I would say two reasons:
Velah, DQ, Titan and Reaver are very poor design. It makes very little sense to bring to end game content poorly design raids.

The perfect is often the enemy of the good enough.


Most of it makes little sense from a story line point of view, if I remember correctly.


Then we should put completing previous raids into the flagging requirements for later ones?

[Borror0]

The perfect is often the enemy of the good enough.
Fine, then I'll simply add that making those raids end game content is poorer gameplay than leaving them at low level.

It's also hardly worth the effort.

[Angelus_dead]

Velah, DQ, Titan and Reaver are very poor design. It makes very little sense to bring to end game content poorly design raids.
Titan and Laliat are just fine, except that their design works better for groups of 6 than 12. Changing them to work well with 12 players wouldn't be difficult in an objective sense, although it looks harder in light of Turbine's demonstrated capabilities. Advancing them to level 17+ would be better than leaving them as-is, and it would be better yet to fix the encounter design by either (a) formally reducing them to 6-man dungeons or (b) increasing the scope of the battle to challenge groups of 7-10.

As for Velah, most of VON is perfectly OK and could be scaled to any level. The Plane of Night itself is fairly poor, and it would be helpful to fix it regardless of what level it'll be. But if they were to put in the effort to improve the red dragon fight, it would be better to bump it up to the level that players could actually visit it.

[Angelus_dead]

It's also hardly worth the effort.
Some facts:
1. There's never enough endgame content to satisfy everyone.
2. Even disregarding that some players are insatiable, DDO has a quite limited menu of endgame content, and mod 9 isn't going to improve it a whole lot. (6 quests + 1 raid is good, but not great, particularly when counted against the time since the last mod)
3. Moving a raid to higher level and rebalancing it would be under 10-20% of the effort of making a new high level raid.

[Angelus_dead]

1) More raiding at level. Currently the DQ and Titan lay dormant until a band of level 16 adventurers come pounding their way in to mop the floors with the Marilith and giant war machine, loot and plunder and then leave for another three days. Not many, if any, at level groups will pop up in the lfm
Increasing the number of low-level groups running older raids would be a difficult challenge, would not be really helped by your suggestions, and most importantly isn't even a very good objective.

Raiding is an inherently top-level activity, so the best way to encourage at-level raiding is move all raids to the top level.

However, the idea of improving the stupidly weak items in various raid-loot tables isn't bad on its own. But it would have been better back when those raids were still at endgame level. At this point, adding new reasons for characters to farm raids 6-10 levels beneath them would be a net negative. You'd first have to decide one of two ways to fix the core design of those raids:
1. Downscale. Decide that they're not going to be treated as endgame raids anymore, and give them characteristics more like a normal quest of that level, possibly including reduced timers, reduced flagging, reduced binding or higher drops, and even smaller group sizes.
2. Upscale. Decide that the raids will return to true endgame status, which means boosting them up to close to the current level cap, and also going back and fixing the most serious design problems that have been noted over time.


2) Get more use with the effects they give at their appropriate levels.
That's not a worthwhile goal, because as others have mentioned, the result would be to encourage level-capped characters to farm that loot and then transfer it to new alts. And the secondary result would be to increase the power disparity between twinked and untwinked low-level characters.


These items could become great twink equipment and would actually then bear some weight to casual players who might be able to get into a DQ, Dragon, or Titan with some guildies or friends for their lowbies.
That's pretty self-contradictory.

[Zenako]

Some facts:
1. There's never enough endgame content to satisfy everyone.
2. Even disregarding that some players are insatiable, DDO has a quite limited menu of endgame content, and mod 9 isn't going to improve it a whole lot. (6 quests + 1 raid is good, but not great, particularly when counted against the time since the last mod)
3. Moving a raid to higher level and rebalancing it would be under 10-20% of the effort of making a new high level raid.

However I can assure you that if Turbine were to just try and rework and relevel an older raid/quest, that they would also get hammered on the forums for "Just reworking a lame old raid instead of creating NEW stuff". Its a no win situation.

Also, from the way a number of the posts read here, it seems to be the feeling that "RAIDS" are ONLY for end game players, that anyone who is not capped or close to it can eat dirt along the way. I strongly disagree with that sentiment. We need to have raids all along the spectrum of levels and the current alignment works well to support that. Also when at the appropriate levels, much of the Raid Loot is actually quite useful. When you take another look 3 or 4 level later, yah a great deal of it is no longer useful to most. But that is true of almost ALL loot in the game.

[Impaqt]

Most of those unbolded items were not all that interesting the for anyone the day the raid came out.

Why would they change them now?

Yes, Items get obsoleted in MMO's

[Angelus_dead]

However I can assure you that if Turbine were to just try and rework and relevel an older raid/quest, that they would also get hammered on the forums for
Forum hammering should only be a tiny consideration in their decision process- especially at a time when they're hoping to see a large influx of new players with a new payment model.


Also, from the way a number of the posts read here, it seems to be the feeling that "RAIDS" are ONLY for end game players
Well, of course.


that anyone who is not capped or close to it can eat dirt along the way.
No, they can play quests and advance towards being capped, which won't take long at all.


I strongly disagree with that sentiment. We need to have raids all along the spectrum of levels and the current alignment works well to support that.
Those are a extreme claims- very far from the apparent truth- and they would require serious justification to be at all believable. Do you have any support for them?

For best results, you'd separately support:
1. Why mid-level raiding is a good idea.
2. Why mid-level raiding is a realistic possibility.
3. How the current DDO game includes mid-level raiding that "works well".

Point 3 might be the easiest to start with, since it is most directly refuted by simple observations.

[Aeneas]

The devs know which raid items are a complete waste of time - and they know they should be updated, deleted, or replaced as they are never used. They play the game too, except they probably laugh when a rattle charm drops instead of cry like the average player.

My biggest pet peeve item is the docent of grace in VON 6. It doesn't even give a full +6 stat boost. Additionally it has a +2 enhancement bonus?? and only gives +5 to a couple fairly junky stats and it's min lvl 10? Docent of grace should be improved and then switched in terms of drop location with the docent of defiance.

[QuantumFX]

Remove the timer or at least shorten it to 18 hours

(a) formally reducing them to 6-man dungeons

How about an option that if you enter as a non raid group and get a 18-24 hour timer at completion?

[Hafeal]

Aren't there already planned changes to some of these raids? DQ will be a one-time flag and they have said they have planned changes to the Dragon as well.

I think loot should not be the focus here. The raiding pre-reqs are the biggest detriment to the frequency of these raids being run. I like Borror0's idea of reducing the timers along with the one-time flag. With a one-time flag, guildies are much more likely to help a fellow guidlie out or perhaps join a PUG, imo.

[Zenako]

Forum hammering should only be a tiny consideration in their decision process- especially at a time when they're hoping to see a large influx of new players with a new payment model.


Well, of course.


No, they can play quests and advance towards being capped, which won't take long at all.


Those are a extreme claims- very far from the apparent truth- and they would require serious justification to be at all believable. Do you have any support for them?

For best results, you'd separately support:
1. Why mid-level raiding is a good idea.
2. Why mid-level raiding is a realistic possibility.
3. How the current DDO game includes mid-level raiding that "works well".

Point 3 might be the easiest to start with, since it is most directly refuted by simple observations.

Well since almost all the RAIDS are based on the quests you need to run to flag for them (at least once at least), then I guess all those quests should be raise to capped level too?? Or you are going to be having players run the flagging quests for Titan, DQ, Reaver, etc and then be 6-8 levels too low to effectively do squat in the actual raids.

So you would now effectively rule out of "mid level play" ALL of the Shroud quests, The Titan Flagging quests, the 3 big quests in GH, the 3 big quests in the Desert, The Von Series, All of the Quests in the Orchard. What is left?

The gaming world does not entirely revolve around END GAME raids for many many players. I fully understand that some players do nothing but, and if that is your circle of friends and playstyle then you may think that is the only thing that matters, but that is not the case.

I suppose the one upside to raising ALL RAIDs and the quests needed to flag for them to Devils Battleground Level would be to force people to play in all the other quests that so many skip now. See you soon in Scoundrels Run, and Tomb of the Astrologer.

[Angelus_dead]

The gaming world does not entirely revolve around END GAME raids for many many players.
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