Disturbing Trend?

[Thailand_Dan]

I'm an easy going player, for the most part, and do not complain much about how others wish to play. When I put PuGs together, I usually pick whoever is level appropriate unless the quest specifically calls for a skill: (ie INT rune, a bad trap, STR lever, etc.). Others spend some time putting together the perfect synergistic group, fine. I usually don't bother, as things usually work out just fine grabbing whomever.

However, several times this week, I've noticed groups restricting invites that are actually counter productive. For example, Reaver had 2 clerics, a few tanks, and 2 sorc (I was one of them). It seemed to take a while to fill, so I look at the LFM which said,, "Need DPS" and was restricting entry to barbs, rangers, fighters, and monks. I asked the guy, "Why do you need DPS in Reaver? As long as we have a tank and a cleric(s) to heal them, wouldn't the party be better off with casters?" Maybe a back up tank or two, fine, but to not allow another caster who wants in? I've seen several examples of this, lately.

I was in a shroud run, on a WF sorc, and the leader insisted on 1 caster to have an extra portal/fiend beater. While, this is doable, solo, it does get a bit hard unless someone else helps out with portal clean up (which no one did). WF casters sacrifice some SP, and Spell Penetration for all those HP. We ended up doing alright, but I ran out of sp with 4 portals left to pop, and part 4 still took 3 rounds (probably because there wasn't another sorc to help haste, elemental prot., FoD the gnolls, solid fog, enervate, buff everyone, Polar Ray, etc.). What was the point of this?

A minor, lowbee example, was a "Norm run" as advertised for Purge the Heretics, at level. The party had 3 people already, and every class was being accepted, except bard. Well, the leader was a bard, so I guess he figured 2 bards was just too much for this 5 minute quest.

The point of all this is to simply ask people to think a little before they are restricting classes to a group. I know the pure rogues out there have been dealing with this for years, type-classed as trap monkeys. This post is not intended to flame those who are putting up these LFMs. Rather, it is an attempt to let people know these restrictions are probably wasting time and may even result in a less suited group for a quest. If you don't know, ask the first few people who join. Very often someone more experienced can help you out.

[cbj192]

All you really need for successful Pugs/Raids are good players and or players that understand what teamwork is.

[Roman]

Not so much a trend as it is human nature. And I'm guilty of it too. We get stuck in a rut of reasoning, and develop biases based on a some experience. And it's hard to change sometimes. I have to force myself to not get stuck in believing that the way I am comfortable with is the best or only way to do things. And, sometimes I am pleasantly surprised to be proven wrong.

Some of the most fun I've had in this game has been with clerver tactics used by totally inefficient group compositions.

[Tanka]

However, several times this week, I've noticed groups restricting invites that are actually counter productive. For example, Reaver had 2 clerics, a few tanks, and 2 sorc (I was one of them). It seemed to take a while to fill, so I look at the LFM which said,, "Need DPS" and was restricting entry to barbs, rangers, fighters, and monks. I asked the guy, "Why do you need DPS in Reaver? As long as we have a tank and a cleric(s) to heal them, wouldn't the party be better off with casters?" Maybe a back up tank or two, fine, but to not allow another caster who wants in? I've seen several examples of this, lately.
To be honest, I've been in a few Reavers lately where people have just come back from multiple-month/year long breaks, remembering Reaver as it was and not realizing that the Eles have gotten a whole lot tougher.

I think that really is it. People resubscribed in preparation for M9 only to realize that M9 has been delayed, so are "practicing" to get used to the game again, only not realizing the way they used to run raids/quests have been thoroughly torn apart and replaced by new methods.

[Thailand_Dan]

To be honest, I've been in a few Reavers lately where people have just come back from multiple-month/year long breaks, remembering Reaver as it was and not realizing that the Eles have gotten a whole lot tougher.

I think that really is it. People resubscribed in preparation for M9 only to realize that M9 has been delayed, so are "practicing" to get used to the game again, only not realizing the way they used to run raids/quests have been thoroughly torn apart and replaced by new methods.

Good point. That's possible.

[Arnya]

Do you have access to the raid alliance channel?

This helps a lot - most raids aren't pugged anymore unless it's to fill the last couple slots with bodies...

[captain1z]

Do you have access to the raid alliance channel?

This helps a lot - most raids aren't pugged anymore unless it's to fill the last couple slots with bodies...

Not a fan of that idea because I exclusively pug. Its a guilds right to choose to run this way though, im not saying they should let random players in if they dont want to............but the more pugs u let in, the more they get used to running these raids.

[Jovial]

You may want to send a tell to the leader and offer up good reasons why you could benefit the party. Ive been sent tells by people I would have not taken had they not spent the few seconds it takes to explain their build or abilitys. Ive taken them for the most part and they have almost always turned out to be a great asset to the group.

[Arnya]

Not a fan of that idea because I exclusively pug. Its a guilds right to choose to run this way though, im not saying they should let random players in if they dont want to............but the more pugs u let in, the more they get used to running these raids.

Agree 100% but when there's only dodgy LFMs and the channel is buzzing, who you gonna choose?

You do have to be a member of the allied guilds, or a VIP (Very Impressive Pugger) however...

[Quikster]

One word, n00bs. They are prolly doing those they exclude a favor. Very few quests need a certain party make up at this point. For gods sake we have been totally static for a year, not even the newest quests need a certain group. Im looking at an lfm right now for SoS, need caster, have FTS, Haste, FoD blah blah blah.

I leveled my cleric with a buddy for a while, we would have our two clerics in group and put up lfms with BYOH :D then try to out kill the tanks, was good fun :)

[Impaqt]

I'm an easy going player, for the most part, and do not complain much about how others wish to play. When I put PuGs together, I usually pick whoever is level appropriate unless the quest specifically calls for a skill: (ie INT rune, a bad trap, STR lever, etc.). Others spend some time putting together the perfect synergistic group, fine. I usually don't bother, as things usually work out just fine grabbing whomever.

I was in a shroud run, on a WF sorc, and the leader insisted on 1 caster to have an extra portal/fiend beater. While, this is doable, solo, it does get a bit hard unless someone else helps out with portal clean up (which no one did). WF casters sacrifice some SP, and Spell Penetration for all those HP. We ended up doing alright, but I ran out of sp with 4 portals left to pop, and part 4 still took 3 rounds (probably because there wasn't another sorc to help haste, elemental prot., FoD the gnolls, solid fog, enervate, buff everyone, Polar Ray, etc.). What was the point of this?


I hear what your saying, but have to make some comments on your shroud tactics....

It is quite normal for my shroud runs to contain only one sorc.. Or even Wizard..... There really no need for another. I will take a second most of the time, but its just fluff for the most part. The Bard is usually responsible for the Hastes. If you didnt have a bard either, theres always clickies and haste pots.

WF Casters "Sacrifice" about 20 Spell Points or so over a non drow, and a whopping 40is over a maxxed Drow. Simply Not significant.

There is no spell penn difference. Spell Penn is based on Level and items and feats. No restrictions or penaltied due to race.

and if your taking a bunch of toughness feats to boost your hit points thats real counter productive.. our a WF Arcane. you can heal yourself. The number of hit points you have is academic in most situations.

If your solo, you need to use your mana wisely in part 1..... If you simply cand do it, Say something. Regardless of whether or not the leader things you need help, SOMEONE will most likey step up and help clear trogs.

In part 4 theres no real need for you to do anything other than kill gnolls and put up some crowd control between rounds. Wasting a bunch of mana on Polar rays doesnt help the group thatmuch. Save the nuking for when you KNOW its close to the end. you know you wont need any more mana to haste or CC. a Sorc can blow through 1000 Spell points on the fiend seconds it seems. Hold out. Kill at the end.

I'm not sure where you would ever need to enervate any mobs in the shroud.... and buffing should only be done when you can replenish your mana unless its an emergency.

You simply need to adjust your tactics a bit when solo casting in the shroud. Let the melee do their jobs.

[minivanman]

I call it "formulaic playing". In other words, doing quests based on a formula. Now this game probably has an elevated level of creative and intelligent people just based on the demographic this game appeals to. But that doesn't mean that there still isn't a great deal of people that aren't as creative, or intelligent. So, they strive for success the only way they know how, and that's playing by "formula".

It's the same in corporate America, and everyday life in general.

Here's a great joke, and really illustrates what's happening.


This story starts with a cage containing five gorillas and a large bunch of bananas
hanging above some stairs in the center of the cage. Before long, a gorilla goes to
the stairs and starts to climb toward the bananas. As soon as he touches the stairs,
all the gorillas are sprayed with cold water. After a while, another gorilla makes an
attempt and gets the same result—all the gorillas are sprayed with cold water.
Every time a gorilla attempts to retrieve the bananas, the others are sprayed.
Eventually, they quit trying and leave the bananas alone.

One of the original gorillas is removed from the cage and replaced with a new one.
The new gorilla sees the bananas and starts to climb the stairs. To his horror, all the
other gorillas attack him. After another attempt and attack, he knows that if he tries
to climb the stairs he will be assaulted. Next, the second of the original five gorillas
is replaced with a new one. The newcomer goes to the stairs and is attacked. The
previous newcomer takes part in the punishment with enthusiasm.

Next the third original gorilla is replaced with a new one. The new one goes for the
stairs and is attacked as well. Two of the four gorillas that beat him have no idea
why they were not permitted to climb the stairs or why they are participating in the
beating of the newest gorilla.

After the fourth and fifth original gorillas have been replaced, all the gorillas that
were sprayed with cold water are gone. Nevertheless, no gorilla will ever again
approach the stairs. Why not?

“Because that’s the way it has always been done.”

[malaky]

I must admit that I used to fall into this mindset for certain quests. Specifically, I always thought you "needed" a caster for stormcleave. Ran it earlier today with no caster and the general was still ridiculously easy to kill. We wouldn't have needed to kill the earth ele if we had a caster, but the 20 seconds it took to kill the ele was more than made up for by the fact that we didn't wait for an "ideal" party.

[geoffhanna]

Ran a shroud the other night with ten melees and two clerics.

"Can I get GH and blur?" <crickets>

I expected massive DPS in ch4 and 5 but it was four rounds!

We won though. Even with the surprisingly deficient DPS it was never really in doubt.

p.s. one of the clerics wasn't that great either (or getting lag I suppose to be fair) LOL

[Original]

I agree, but I am guilty of not taking certain classes... But I have noticed lately with leveling my wf sorcerer that pugs are horrible... 93min madstone with no communication(dont even know why I stayed). If I run with a guildy and someone else I know It goes fine... but when I pug the groups are the worst I have seen. If I was new to this game right now and pugging I would probaly quit, because the pugs are just plain brutal!

[Tanka]

I've had more chaotic Reavers in the last week than I have since its introduction to the game. It's like people aren't even trying anymore.

[gfunk]

Here's a great joke, and really illustrates what's happening.

lol.. that’s a great one!

I've really noticed it since I started playing on other servers. Each server seems to have fallen into its own rut as to how it runs quests. Some strategies cross server boundaries, but other tactics seem quite provincial. I am quite amazed at how certain things take such a hold on a server.. for example, on Sarlona everyone who does the reaver enters and immediately goes up in front of "the line". On Khyber, everyone enters and remains at the door. On Sarlona the main party stays in the entrance cubby, whereas on Khyber the party goes to where we usually have the Reaver tank go (and the reaver is tanked at the blue barrier).

That’s as subtle and mostly inconsequential difference, but it illustrates the herd mentality that becomes part of the game.

[Quikster]

I agree, but I am guilty of not taking certain classes... But I have noticed lately with leveling my wf sorcerer that pugs are horrible... 93min madstone with no communication(dont even know why I stayed). If I run with a guildy and someone else I know It goes fine... but when I pug the groups are the worst I have seen. If I was new to this game right now and pugging I would probaly quit, because the pugs are just plain brutal!

Cmon what about that von 1-4 that was smooth...


I've had more chaotic Reavers in the last week than I have since its introduction to the game. It's like people aren't even trying anymore.

And where were you guys in my Know how to shroud thread? This is some of what I was talking about :D

[gfunk]

Vishuns of distruption?.. get yer @%$* poishun pots yer nubs!..mumble mumble..

jeez quik.. stay out of the sauce! that thread was over weeks ago..

;)

[Karranor]

Falling into a rut. That is exactly what the problem is.

Sure I have my "ideal party" but rarely do I get it. In fact I am happy for that because it mixes things up a bit when we ALL are in the same rut. With no new content for so long we find ourselves just doing the same stuff over and over. People learn an easy/best way to do a raid/quest and it then is stuck in stone.

Then you get people that think the quest HAS to be run X way. The best is when you get a group where one knows it HAS to be done X way and one knows it HAS to be done Y way. That always gets interesting...

Really, people need to learn to be flexible and adapt to the different groups and the different strategies. Who knows, you might actually find out how FUN they can be!

This rut in fact annoys me to no end. I have been trying to get groups to try out different things, different strats or whatever. Why? Just for fun! Let's see what happens? Who knows you might find a BETTER way do to something. Regardless it breaks the hum drum of the 187th Shroud run and may make it one you will remember!

And though I point fingers at those unbending annoyances around me I am not guilt free of this either. I ask all of you out there to open up the possibilities. Have some tolerance for different builds, play styles and tactics. Have a little respect for other players of this game and I will promise to do the same for you!

OK done... off to do more experimenting!

[Quikster]

jeez quik.. stay out of the sauce! that thread was over weeks ago..

;)

errr.....wait.....uhhh.....what just happened?

[gfunk]

errr.....wait.....uhhh.....what just happened?


er sorry...

anyways, come sign up for naked Titan + pre-reqs

[Thrudh]

I take the first five people that want to come along... period... I don't ever wait for clerics, or casters, etc.

80% of the time, we all do great, and it's just as smooth as if we have waited for a "perfect" group...
15% of the time, I (and maybe another good player) get to play the "hero" and save the quest through a heroic effort (I love this actually)
5% of the time, the other players are so bad, they sabotage my heroic efforts (aggroing too many mobs at once, etc.), and the party wipes...

Too many people can't stand a 5% failure rate... I say its well worth it, because quest is actually an adventure and a challenge, as opposed to the way most people play this game, with all the excitment of microwaving a burrito...

Raids are a little different, but all quests, even end-game quests, are completable with any mix of classes...

[Quikster]

I take the first five people that want to come along... period... I don't ever wait for clerics, or casters, etc.

80% of the time, we all do great, and it's just as smooth as if we have waited for a "perfect" group...
15% of the time, I (and maybe another good player) get to play the "hero" and save the quest through a heroic effort (I love this actually)
5% of the time, the other players are so bad, they sabotage my heroic efforts (aggroing too many mobs at once, etc.), and the party wipes...

Too many people can't stand a 5% failure rate... I say its well worth it, because quest is actually an adventure and a challenge, as opposed to the way most people play this game, with all the excitment of microwaving a burrito...

Raids are a little different, but all quests, even end-game quests, are completable with any mix of classes...

Agreed, I prefer to run without clerics 90% of the time when leveling, i also get so used to chugging haste pots I end up doing it even when hasted.

I find peeps play better when responsible for themselves. Toss a healer in and most seem to start playing like junk...

[BrianTheHun]

And where were you guys in my Know how to shroud thread? This is some of what I was talking about :D

That's because we already know not to ask you for a Neutralize Poison. :)

[rawzon3]

The main problem with building a party without a cleric is that of the first 4 people you accept to the party, 3 of them will be scared stiff at the thought of running a quest without a cleric. So I end up waiting for a cleric.

As to the OPs point, building a VoD group last night, I was looking for a bard, two clerics, and an orthon tank. 4 people requested to join, 2 rangers and 2 rogues, all about the same time. So I waited and finally one of the rangers sent me a tell with his AC and Intimidate and said he would tank the orthons. Well, thats all I needed to know, was that he would tank the orthons (i didnt really care about the stat numbers).
It was a very smooth run.

So for me, I think when pugging raids it helps to have those roles to give people, but not to exclude based on class/build, and the communication beforehand is key to making sure players are comfortable with what needs to happen.

[Lorichie]

Not so much a trend as it is human nature. And I'm guilty of it too. We get stuck in a rut of reasoning, and develop biases based on a some experience. And it's hard to change sometimes. I have to force myself to not get stuck in believing that the way I am comfortable with is the best or only way to do things. And, sometimes I am pleasantly surprised to be proven wrong.

Some of the most fun I've had in this game has been with clerver tactics used by totally inefficient group compositions.

This is probably close to an absolute for everyone out there. More for some, less for others. My question is, and always has been in threads like this, at this stage of the game, why is this even really a big deal anymore unless you are running elite raids or some elite quests? Any quest in the game, for the most part, can be completed quite easily with semi competent people and a decent leader. Take the first five to join and get it done so we can move onto the next one. Just my opinion of course.

R

[Arnya]

The main problem with building a party without a cleric is that of the first 4 people you accept to the party, 3 of them will be scared stiff at the thought of running a quest without a cleric. So I end up waiting for a cleric.

4 words for ya: BYOH.

When I throw up an LFM it says ' In Progress - BYOH'.

This little trick has gotten me the best PUGs as I have been grinding my 1750 on the other servers. It scares the pileons and slowbies off :)

[cnynridr2]

I find peeps play better when responsible for themselves. Toss a healer in and most seem to start playing like junk...

Agreed! Without a cleric you need to step up your game. With a cleric people tend to get lazy. Plus it's more of a challenge. After running the same stuff for a year we need a challenge.

I usually put BYOH even if a cleric IS in group, people need to be more self sufficient. The cleric wants to have fun too, why should he worry about having to heal our arses.

[Quikster]

yup BYOH IP get here on ur own :D

been leveling my battle bard and every lfm put up has something along those lines along with fast or quick run. Then sloNgo'rs come in and complain lol. I just say read the lfm next time and keep going.

[transtemporal]

I've noticed some odd LFMs on argo recently too, but usually it can be explained by quest or nooberness. Sometimes there's a new funky way of running something that guild groups aren't exposed to.

Very rarely do uber groups omit anything.

Well, the cool uber groups anyway. :)

[Thailand_Dan]

I agree with the general consensus of take whomever and BYOH. All of my toons can self heal, or at lest use wands for a reason. I don't want to depend on others to keep me alive. I guess the original intention of this thread was to ask people to open their eyes a bit on accepting people into quests.

Lastly, I do frequently send tells to leaders explaining why they should accept me, if appropriate. Oddly enough, I find myself sending tells explaining why they may not want to accept me, and that almost always get invites. I guess they figure if I am willing to come clean before I even get an invite, I must know the quest and what I am doing, more then most.

[Quikster]

I agree with the general consensus of take whomever and BYOH. All of my toons can self heal, or at lest use wands for a reason. I don't want to depend on others to keep me alive. I guess the original intention of this thread was to ask people to open their eyes a bit on accepting people into quests.

Lastly, I do frequently send tells to leaders explaining why they should accept me, if appropriate. Oddly enough, I find myself sending tells explaining why they may not want to accept me, and that almost always get invites. I guess they figure if I am willing to come clean before I even get an invite, I must know the quest and what I am doing, more then most.

Lately leveling my bard I have been responding to tells with, "This is not the bard you are looking for." Usually followed with, "I dont have a single healing spell....."

[BlackRage]

All you really need for successful Pugs/Raids are good players and or players that understand what teamwork is.

And therein lies the rub - good luck always getting that

[Monkey_Archer]

All my lfms are always open to every class....

The only exeption is if clerics or casters are needed for specific quests. (ie 1-2 clerics for shroud, usually 1+ caster for reaver, etc)
Or if there is already 3+ clerics/casters already in a shroud group

IMO Fighters, Paladins, Barbarians, Monks, Rogues, Rangers and Bards are all the same :D