Vision of Destruction

[adm5893]

Because it has been difficult to get a guild run for this, I have been pugging it and have not had a consistent streak of luck.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated... I think in the last two failures, the clerics failed to cast enough blade barriers soon enough....

[maddmatt70]

Have all the melee other then the main tank kill the bats as well as the casters. Problem solved.

[spyderwolf]

Part 1 of 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTM4DmRUsXU)
Part 2 of 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-a0GGiUsbKY)

Hope they help!

[moops]

A million different strategies, however, this raid is actually easier to short man, then to do with a full group of unknown pugs--and even uber guild groups fail sometimes due to miscalculations--like deciding to actually kill the orthons, and the Sally tank accidently taking Sally too far down in health and spawning the Bats while no one is prepared:)

I actually don't use BB to kill the bats, I throw one up, but I know that BBS on my 2 main clerics aren't that great in VOD, if Im leading a group where the bats need to be killed because I think that they can't live through mass heals or serverlag issues, I ask the rangers and casters to take care of it and just spam mass heals. I try to save at least half of my SP for the end, and only use scrolls for most healing. Also, many times I am the only CLeirc, so throwing a BB just draws aggro to me, and then I can't actually heal the group as well.

[kuro_zero]

The problem is you're taking a lvl 7 Paladin (or have you made 8?) into a lvl 17 Raid :P

Joking aside, DPS management is key near the end. DPS need to sometimes sit back and wait for the CC and blades to be in place before the bats spawn. When I'm tanking Sally I turtle up while the Orothons are being killed, and the devils have been taken care of (I believe 48 is the kill count to reach before the kamikaze bats)

Once the CC and blades are in place and all other trash have been taken care of, webs and BBs are placed in the half or third of the room where sally is. All DPS fight through the bats, clerics spamming mass protect and mass cures, a dedicated WF healer (if going that route) keep main tank up while other one helps take out the bats (horrid wilting after a group of bats have been webbed works well).

Last run we attempted to use Symbol of Death since reports stated the bats have less than the HP cap of the spell, but the caster stated the bats were popping up Immune. If the BB do not kill them and they get stuck in a web, a SoD on top of them should kill em.

Generally we have all DPS try to take down Sally as quickly as possible, fighting through the bats. Alternatively, I've seen people break off to run bats around through BBs and Webs and once the bats have thinned get back on Sally to end it.

Also, Clerics should be using scrolls and dipping into their mana as little as possible. Good measuring tool is to have as much blue bar as Sally has health bar. A few pots for those hairy end moments don't hurt, and its nice if others can handle rez's instead of taxing the already over burdened clerics.

[Phidius]

Yeah, the variableness in PUG raid completions seems to be increasing here on Sarlona. Here's my advice.


1. Watch the LFM even if you are on timer. In time, you'll come to know the people who run it regularly, even if they aren't the leaders.

2. The smoothest runs I've been on have included a high AC main tank. If you have a WF main tank who's depending on DR, make sure you have plenty of Reconstruct scolls. For example, I always carried 200 when I was one of 2 casters. Rarely did I use more than 120, but it's better to be prepared. Unless your casters have 8,000-9,000 spell points, that is.

3. The quiet groups make me nervous. I'd rather have to ask people to stop talking than have someone who doesn't respond.

4. For some reason, people who work together like a surgical team for the 1st wave of Orthons can totally lose their freaking minds when the 2nd wave hits. Make sure the only person putting down AOE is the Orthon collector once your kill counts gets close to 47, and that everyone else knows to sheathe their weapons (in a manner of speaking) until the Orthons are gathered up.


I can't give any good advice for the bats - the runs I've been on, we've either wiped on the 2nd wave of Orthons, or completed. I can't remember the bats being a problem for a while now, and I have no idea how they are being dealt with aside from Blade Barriers.

[maddmatt70]

Have all the melee other then the main tank kill the bats as well as the casters. Problem solved.

I will just bump my own post to clarify. When the bats come all the melee kill the bats. There are two waves of bats so after you kill the first wave you go back on the pit fiend and then when the second wave of bats come you kill the bats again. If the main tank dies you just avoid sulu and keep concentrating on the bats. This is the BEST STRATEGY. It is foolproof really and does not matter what personnel you have. You will not have any problems with the bats after that.

[soupertc]

the only reason people throw Blade Barriers down is to draw aggro. If your in a PUG it is wise to kill the bats....it's not that hard for people to run around and swing thier weapons for a few seconds. It also helps if the casters themselves have the ablitly to move around and not stand as statues if they are healing Warforged.

We run this on a regular basis and we PUG out the last 6 spots normally to spread the wealth or meet new people. Just look for a LFM Samulos(or any of his ALTs) has put up and click join.

[wamjratl1]

The best way is to play at a time when you and your party are the only ones online on the whole server. That way, you be able to avoid getting Sully down to about 1% and then hitting a lag spike where everyone gets the death message but is still showing full HP, you can still swing your weapon, and the bats are still flying around your dead head and then you freeze in place for 30 seconds or so... Oh, and what eveyone else said, too.

[kuro_zero]

Lag is horrendous on the approach to the quest, getting those pressure switches lit while DDO is running on a 1 FPS slide show is the suxors.

Once in the quest I have not noticed any debilitating lag spikes, compared to say Shroud Part 4 DPS lag since generally peeps are running around handling trash and orothons and not hitting one mob for 30 minutes.

[Zaal]

Just ran one last night and interestingly, part one was sort of a cluster-frack but once the party found its a groove, the rest of the quest was really a piece of cake.

I was one of two repair'r on our WF TANK and found I had mana to spare a quest's end - as did our other castor.

Al said, we had just one casualty during the last bat wave and said casualty was fortunately not our WF TANK.

Interesting take on castor'ing... I noticed the other castor having cast SHADOW WALK on himself and having a stack of scrolls myself, cast it also and essentially dicovered that, as long as I didn't take agro, I was able to repair the bot while essentially staying in a displaced state for 10 minutes - point being SHADOW WALK allowed me to save.

Of course in between tank sessions, had to drop back to casting DISPLACEMENT since casting even WEB was enough to draw agro.

COLD SHIELD was also a benefit in there that I hadn't utilized before as it, along with Fire Resist and Protection helped to negate a bunch of Fire Bat damage.

All in all, a number of points in this thread I also find to be helpful... Chattering groups tend to have more confidence and once the group gells, normally good things come out of it.

LFM are suprisingly informative... Text can help reveal if the party leader is confident.

Also, have a look at the party make up and of course look for a few castors, a few clerics, a bard, warforge Tanks (and castors to repair) etc.... I know this one sounds obvious but, joined a pug once with my Cleric not really looking at party makeup and found myself to be the main WF TANK healer! Sure, we had a sorc but he was using scrolls!

That run was a miserable failure but, refusing to give up, I found myself using 10+ Major Pots - the party leader offered to reimburse some of them but I was so ticked, I declined them... No one else in the party even offered any.

[Kalari]

I'll be honest by the time my guild gets to this raid were probably really tanked..no seriously we drink during our raids :)

The strategy that has worked for us was have a tank for sully and a tank for the orthons while everyone else worried about the devils and bats or *trash* as we call them. Casters put down web and solid/acid fog and if the clerics want to bb fine but most of the time its not necessary. The important thing is to keep the tank on Sully and the tank on the orthon healthy and pick them off one at a time. Its worked for us and we do it drunk :)

May not do good for those who want a super fast run though.

[Roman]

Op, look for a VoD raid by Samulus. He's one of the finest raid leaders on the server. After you learn the raid it becomes very easy (It's always like that I guess). Run it with him a few times and you'll be a pro.

[kuro_zero]

I remember the OP in a VoD run yesterday (successful, very smooth completion). Glados was main Sally tank, leaching off of Phlor's aura (thank's bro! bumped me to the magic 72 AC mark)

Shadow Walk is a very good tactic, although some peeps must turn off post-processing under adv. graphics options or you won't be able to see sh*t (saw the problem with 8800 GTs in SLi.) Its like an uber invisibility + haste. As long as you don't cast any OFFENSIVE spells (CC counts...) it won't break for the duration.

[Phidius]

I remember the OP in a VoD run yesterday (successful, very smooth completion). Glados was main Sally tank, leaching off of Phlor's aura (thank's bro! bumped me to the magic 72 AC mark)

Shadow Walk is a very good tactic, although some peeps must turn off post-processing under adv. graphics options or you won't be able to see sh*t (saw the problem with 8800 GTs in SLi.) Its like an uber invisibility + haste. As long as you don't cast any OFFENSIVE spells (CC counts...) it won't break for the duration.

Glad to hear it - maybe things are starting to look up.

Fradul was in a VoD run yesterday.

1. Human Barbarian Sally tank w/ 2 clerics
2. Buffs included 30 minute FoM, SR, Proof o' Posion, etc... but no Energy Resist (Mass Protection doesn't replace Resists)
3. I announced I smelled a party wipe

Ended up successful with only using 50 Heal Scrolls and 50 Remove Curse pots - pleasant surprise.

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

I always find the high AC tank is far far preferable to the 'wf tank' method that I always see in LFMs - which is why I so rarely join them, I don't see why any group should have to use any resources at all in that quest, and when I was forced to heal a WF on my caster for 15 minutes it just ended up getting so frustrating.

Sally hits at +52 so if you can get your AC to 72 he will only hit on a 20. Get your casters to debuff him - waves of exhaustion is -3 to attack, prayer (debuff) is -1 to attack, ray of enfeeblement is -1 to attack - that's -5 to attack right there, so you only need 68 AC, and most monk/rangers or S&B tanks can reach that pretty easily.

If you go the AC route, make sure the people wailing on Sally know not to try and steal agro, it's a marathon not a sprint, as long as you complete the raid in 30 minutes (before extended buffs vanish) then it's the same as completing in 15, easier in fact, because devils will pop slower and you can deal with them better.

Party leaders - if you're planning on running VOD and are using an AC tank, can you put that in your LFM because I would like to join your party :) Both my monk and my S&B can happily tank Sally and keep aggro just fine, and they both need completions (but I hate leading groups).

Garth

[kuro_zero]

Spell Mantle = Immunity to Lvl 4 and below spells.

NONE of those debuffs work on Sally. She won't even be hit by Solid Fog concealment (lvl 4 spell) - you need acid fog or cloud kill.

Easy remedy - a high AC WF.

[Paladin20]

Because it has been difficult to get a guild run for this, I have been pugging it and have not had a consistent streak of luck.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated... I think in the last two failures, the clerics failed to cast enough blade barriers soon enough....


From my experience, here are some typical points of difficulty or failure a PUG will be likely to encounter:

1. Not enough healing/resources.
Make sure the clerics start out using as many scrolls as possible, and save at least 60-70% of their mana bar for the 2nd wave of orthons and after. Healing can be expedited if there is one bard or caster that is dedicated to removing curse with potions on the main tank. This procedure can be further simplified if the main tank on the big guy is a Warforged. In that case, make sure the casters are either WF and have the Reconstruct spell or have plenty of scrolls. Last but not least, make sure each mana user has at least a couple of Major Mnemonic Potions handy just in case, because things might not go so smooth until you have a lot of successful completions or have it down to a science.

2. Keeping the healing priority straight.
Sometimes a cleric will stray to top somebody off or rescue somebody when the main targets (tank on Suulo and tank on Orthons) are taking heavy damage and end up having no time to recover. Even though dying sucks and nobody likes it, people have to understand that unless they are main tanking/intimidating, they are either a) dispensible b) not crucial to the survival of the party c) standing on the wrong spot and taking way too much damage. If the main tank goes down and the big guy gets loose he'll go around chasing people and cursing them which prevents them from getting healed, and that can easily be a party wipe.

3. Focus the DPS on one target.
For the most efficient way of dealing with the Orthons, it's best to have all the DPSers hit the same one (assigning a lead DPS to attacking Orthons helps), as the sooner you have one less Orthon on the floor means that there will be one less elite mob rolling an attack dice per swing = less damage to be taken.

4. Refreshing Mass Protection From Elements/Spam Mass Cure.
One thing that might be easy to overlook is that if you take contact with a Detonator Bat towards the end and live the first hit that means you took 120 less damage than you would had your Fire Prot not been on. If the party isn't going around chasing bats and there is enough CC around the floor, then the clerics/casters should stay within the vicinity of where the party is wailing on Suulomades so that Mass Protects/Cures will cover as many people as possible. Having Quicken turned on is of great value when you're in a pinch.

5. DPS is really high and mobs spawn too quickly in the end.
Sometimes a really solid DPS group will encounter Devils spawning on top of the Orthons that just dropped. People have to be watchful of the boss' health bar at around the letter 'd' or when the group has reached the 48-50 kill mark. In that situation, make sure the DPSers are vorpalling/WoP the devils down before dealing with the Orthons, which take a lot longer to kill.

6. Bats, bats, bats.
Web + Solid Fog + CK is in my book the best way to deal with bats, especially Web because you can cover the whole room with it in less than a minute. If the casters have heighten it's the perfect time to turn it on. Blade Barrier does not work as well because it takes a lot longer to cover a good area, and if the DC is not as good the bats have pretty darn good reflex saves and evasion. Also helpful is assigning one group member with a Stat Damaging ranged weapon and preferrably evasion to target the bats. Also, the proper Fire mitigation gear is also very helpful, things such as Firestorm Greaves, Cloak of Ice/Fire Shield (Cold) spell, and Shroud Exceptional Bonus items w/Resistance or Absorption.

[kuro_zero]

{snip}
[COLOR="teal"]... when the group has reached the 75-80 kill mark. ...
{snip}


75-80?! Runs I've been on we wait for 48 then DPS down for Orothons, wait for Orothons to drop (52) and DPS Sally down for bats.

[moops]

Spell Mantle = Immunity to Lvl 4 and below spells.

NONE of those debuffs work on Sally. She won't even be hit by Solid Fog concealment (lvl 4 spell) - you need acid fog or cloud kill.

Easy remedy - a high AC WF.

Actually when I lead I prefer a Flesh tank, one thing about most flesh tanks is that they can be healed with a Wand by a Ranger or anyone with UMD--most flesh tanks rarely take damage and if they do take damage they have healing amp. It sure makes single clericing easier. With High Ac they are not getting cursed as long as they are not getting hit. When I lead, I only use a WF if no one else is guild or Friends list has a High AC fleshie. I've run too many times with WF that cost the casters too much--no one should have to use a ton of resources. Ive also joined pugs where the WF takes so much damage that 2 casters cant keep them up.

Sally can be debuffed, but your right some of those spells don't work on her. I use prayer to boost damage--I know it does nothing for Sally. In some groups I use Solid Fog if the caster does not have acid, but not for Sally.

But thats whats wonderful about this game, we can use so many different strats to be the same raid:)

[Roman]

Actually when I lead I prefer a Flesh tank, one thing about most flesh tanks is that they can be healed with a Wand by a Ranger or anyone with UMD--most flesh tanks rarely take damage and if they do take damage they have healing amp. It sure makes single clericing easier. With High Ac they are not getting cursed as long as they are not getting hit. When I lead, I only use a WF if no one else is guild or Friends list has a High AC fleshie. I've run too many times with WF that cost the casters too much--no one should have to use a ton of resources. Ive also joined pugs where the WF takes so much damage that 2 casters cant keep them up.

Sally can be debuffed, but your right some of those spells don't work on her. I use prayer to boost damage--I know it does nothing for Sally. In some groups I use Solid Fog if the caster does not have acid, but not for Sally.

But thats whats wonderful about this game, we can use so many different strats to be the same raid:)


Please don't make blanket statements about warforged. My main is warforged and I can self buff to 68AC and raid buff to 80AC. Being warforged does not mean low AC. I can also hit 94% healing efficiency if needed. So no, warforged are not hard to heal either.

[Paladin20]

75-80?! Runs I've been on we wait for 48 then DPS down for Orothons, wait for Orothons to drop (52) and DPS Sally down for bats.

You're probably right... been a while since I last checked.

[Kalari]

Have to agree with Roman only because I know a of a high ac wf tank but then again the person behind it really knows his stuff. And when hes tanking Sally its really easy on my casters with the reconstruct cause Sally barely hits him. Fleshy tanks as long as they know what they are doing are fine if they can hold aggro. But I have liked the wf method as well specially since I prefer my casters to my clerics still. I dunno to each his/her own ive yet to fail a vod and ive played back in the day when I was on satellite and unsure if my heals were even going off. I think if you have a strong group going in the raid is a cake walk. And in a pug people who listen and dont panic if things get a little hairy can turn things around if something bad happens. As for my track record I have 20 or nearly 20 completes on over 6 girls and ive run with many guilds threw this my first one being a hard on my cleric with a pug and one guildie of mine.

[kuro_zero]

Agree with ya Moops. Reason I don't run my Sorc more often through there (even tho I would very much like those items). The majority of pug strategy rely on a WF sally tank and an Orothon intimi-tank. I don't run if I don't recognize the two full-filling that role (and prefer guildies, of course).

Being a WF isn't the be-all, end all req for tanking Sally. Without some form of damage mitigation (looking at respectable AC or a DoD) you'll just end up being a mana drain leaving casters with no mana (and minus 150 reconstruct scroll) for when they need it most (kamikaze bats).

The way I see it is the WF no-AC tank strategy is for PUGs that in fact need 4 clerics to keep up with healing. Its just helluva lot easier getting two arcanes to play cleric and a WF melee then convincing 4 clerics to join a VoD...

The two Wave spells should work (Fatique, Exhaustion, lvl 5 & 7 respecfully) but I rarely see casters use em. Not sure if Symbols work on Raid bosses (Pain and hopefully Weakness come mod-9). Also not sure if Sally goes to her perch if that globe effect completely removes any debuffs requiring re-casting when she drops down again. That would be annoying.

My hope is that Disjunction will remove that spell mantle effect from her (or Sor'jek's Command, etc) but probably not since an easy raid would become even easier.

[moops]

Please don't make blanket statements about warforged. My main is warforged and I can self buff to 68AC and raid buff to 80AC. Being warforged does not mean low AC. I can also hit 94% healing efficiency if needed. So no, warforged are not hard to heal either.

I didnt make a blanket statement---I pointed out my experiences, I never said that all WF are low AC mana sponges--I simply that said I Prefer High AC Fleshies because they rarely take damage, can be healed by Rangers and anyone with UMD and usually have healling AMP--I guess I should've added that most UMD non casters do not carry repair wands and cure wands just don't work as well on WF--My Bad.

I should've also add that since I primarily run 3 clerics through here, I like to be able to not have to pay close attention to the main tank, and to be able to take care of them myself if **** hits the fan--and while there are definitely WF exceptions, many are cursed the entire time, don't bother to remove them, and then when I go to throw a heal on them because the caster just died or tapped, it doesn't work.

But I did add in my post that the the wonderful thing was that we can all use a diff strat for the raid, and still be successful. Now for fun, You could try to beat our SPeed Record using a WF tank though:) We used a Fleshie:) That would be great Fun. 7 Min Normal, 15 Min ELite.

[gfunk]

Please don't make blanket statements about warforged. My main is warforged and I can self buff to 68AC and raid buff to 80AC. Being warforged does not mean low AC. I can also hit 94% healing efficiency if needed. So no, warforged are not hard to heal either.

Well, I think its fair to say that most WF tanks take up a tonne of healing resources. For some reason, high AC warforged melees are few and far between. I know there are WF, AC builds are out there (your ranger for example, or some monk splash WF's), but I've never encountered one in any of my VOD runs (though I have tanked on my WF, who currently gets to ~67 AC which is enough to significantly reduce the amount of resources required). It does seem that a large proportion of people who have WF have gone the DoD route, and not bothered with AC.

Anyways, the point is that whatever the race, a good AC tank is way easier to run with than a HP/DR tank.

[kuro_zero]

I didnt make a blanket statement---I pointed out my experiences, I never said that all WF are low AC mana sponges--I simply that said I Prefer High AC Fleshies because they can be healed by Rangers and anyone with UMD and usually have healling AMP--I guess I should've added that most UMD non casters do not carry repair wands and cure wands just don't work as well on WF--My Bad.

*shrug* I didn't read it as a blanket statement concerning WF, and has been my experience as well trying to run my sorc through VoDs. And GlaDOS is a high AC WF (well, high-ish, still need Chattering ring, +1 Except Dex on DT Tempest, and a +3 Dex Tome for a total +5 to AC)

Problem with healing amp is that its available to fleshies as well and there is no equivalent for WF and reconstructs. A WF needs it to just break-even, a fleshie with same and high AC can now be healed through with cure lights and cure mods, or wands.

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

yup you're right prayer and ray aren't going to work, but waves of exhaustion (even from scrolls) and waves of fatigue (although I'm still not sure they stack, I need to test that!) along with CK and, if you're lucky, a symbol of pain are still very good debuffs in VOD.

Every time I've run with a WF 'tank' it's been a high dps low AC - maybe I was just unlucky all 20 times I ran it; I do agree that running with a high AC WF tank would be the best of both worlds, especially as a WF can 'hate boost' to get that initial aggro.

I for one, just can't stand having to use any resources during a (normal) VOD run, and it seems that in a group with a WF 'tank' - the leaders expect the sorcs to spam reconstruct scrolls on the WF. And if a wizard is along and tasked instead, then they're likely to run out of mana and have to drink pots. I suffered through VOD pugs for 20 painful runs to get my glacial bracers, and now I'm happy to pick and choose my runs, where the tank can be kept up with a single ranger/bard with a CSW wand (or simply doesn't need any healing at all), and my conjuration speced sorc can use his specialisation to full potential (webs, tts etc etc) rather than just mashing the same button for 15 minutes.

Once again, people willing to do the AC tank method (be it fleshy or WF) let me know and I'll be happy to bring someone - even my cleric! - along.

Garth

[Roman]

You could try to beat our SPeed Record using a WF tank though:) We used a Fleshie:) That would be great Fun. 7 Min Normal, 15 Min ELite.


I think your original post shows a gross ignorance of the race (personal opinion). And your speed record is not impressive. I have run three Chinese pugs that matched or beat your time. I guess they aren't out for the glory and never bothered to post it on the forums.

[Kalari]

I think its been your luck Garth but I do admit to being spoiled. I run this raid guild only now so the scrolls I do admit to using are most of the time given to me if I dont buy them myself. my mana is used for debuffs and web and other cc for the trash. I dont think Kal has ever used a pot in that raid though Kam my cleric has during hairy runs.

I still think its to each their own. If there was one guaranteed successful way to run this raid everyone would be doing it and it would probably be boring. OP I hope you have more successful runs in the future. And friday night if the guild is not bursting with people sometimes Lost Legions throws up lfm's for the quest. Like I said most of the time we get to it were really tanked from doing the drinking game and I dont think I can remember failing that raid with them ever. Granted I dont remember much come morning but definitely dont remember ever whiping a vod even with hella lag :)

[moops]

I think your original post shows a gross ignorance of the race (personal opinion). And your speed record is not impressive. I have run three Chinese pugs that matched or beat your time. I guess they aren't out for the glory and never bothered to post it on the forums.

Well ty. . ..

I was just throwing down a friendly challenge, trying to make things fun--we have one with people on Khyber server and its been great--we've even rolled alts on Khyber because of it. I do run with the Chinese as well- and they have all congratulated us, and said that they cant beat 7 mins due to lag--Im positive that if they didn't face the lag issues that they do, that they would beat us or tie us--Sally does sit on her perch a awful long time, so Im not sure that 6 Mins is attainable.

It was their Records that we set out to beat, they posted screenies in Sarlona and Acheivement forums.

[Roman]

Anyways, the point is that whatever the race, a good AC tank is way easier to run with than a HP/DR tank.

Gfunk, I have a great feal of respect for your opinion, and I agree. The real point is that AC > HP/DR. and it has NOTHING to do with race, as you stated. Prefering fleshy over WF is silly. Prefer AC over Hp/DR, sure. but race has nothing to do with it. And healing amp on a high AC tank is irrelevent.

[kuro_zero]

yup you're right prayer and ray aren't going to work, but waves of exhaustion (even from scrolls) and waves of fatigue (although I'm still not sure they stack, I need to test that!)

{snip}

They stack. Tested with a wizard friend of mine in the brawling PvP pits


I think your original post shows a gross ignorance of the race (personal opinion).

All entitled to our own opinions. And majority of the time they're better held to one's self.


And your speed record is not impressive. I have run three Chinese pugs that matched or beat your time. I guess they aren't out for the glory and never bothered to post it on the forums.

But you could have.

Maybe too late for this thread to descend into a flame war of he-said / she-said (therefore will wash my hands of this thread). I would have liked the OP to chime in on his experience during yesterday's (around 3pm-ish PST) successful run. Maybe he can get in before the lock...

[Roman]

Well ty. . ..

I was just throwing down a friendly challenge, trying to make things fun--we have one with people on Khyber server and its been great--we've even rolled alts on Khyber because of it. I do run with the Chinese as well- and they have all congratulated us, and said that they cant beat 7 mins due to lag--Im positive that if they didn't face the lag issues that they do, that they would beat us or tie us--Sally does sit on her perch a awful long time, so Im not sure that 6 Mins is attainable.

Moops you are not special or amazing in anyway that I have personally witnessed. I've seen pugs achieve what you think is worthy of a post in the achivements forum on a regular basis. Your challenge for speed runs doesn't excite me in the least.

[Phidius]

Frankly, I think having competent players who know what they are doing and how to communicate trumps every other stategy/race/class

Which explains why the PUG experience is so unpredictable.

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

They stack. Tested with a wizard friend of mine in the brawling PvP pits

Ah good to know - thanks for that info. Interestingly when I cast Waves of Fatigue then I get the 'you hit sulu with fatigued' and then if I cast the waves of exhaustion I get 'you hit sulu with exhausted' - but if I do it the other way round, I get the exhausted message, but I never get the fatigued message - that was why I had a feeling they didn't stack or there was something fishy going on. I just always make sure I fatigue before I exhaust now... or maybe I'm just remembering things badly.

Garth

[Phidius]

Roman, you seem a bit testy today... did Moops do something to your Cheerios?

Maybe I'm getting the Titan's chest of PUGs... I've never been in a PUG that was even close to the accomplishments I've seen Moops & Co. post on the Achievements.

[Turial]

Have all the melee other then the main tank kill the bats as well as the casters. Problem solved.

So true.

[Roman]

Roman, you seem a bit testy today... did Moops do something to your Cheerios?

Maybe I'm getting the Titan's chest of PUGs... I've never been in a PUG that was even close to the accomplishments I've seen Moops & Co. post on the Achievements.

My Cheerios are good. I was just posting for the edification of the minority.

[beelzebaba]

the current record is 7 minutes on norm. 15 minutes on elite. To say that a pug can beat this without specifically trying to do so is ridiculous.

BTW i can beat Micheal Phelps in a swimming race and have done it many times. I just dont need to prove it to any of you idiots.

Oh yeah i once beat Mike Tyson in a fight...because i claim it, it must be true

[Roman]

the current record is 7 minutes on norm. 15 minutes on elite. To say that a pug can beat this without specifically trying to do so is ridiculous.

BTW i can beat Micheal Phelps in a swimming race and have done it many times. I just dont need to prove it to any of you idiots.

Oh yeah i once beat Mike Tyson in a fight...because i claim it, it must be true

Log in at about 2am PST and join ANY chinese pug. You may be surpised at what they do.

[Thelmallen]

How often are those Chinese groups really PuGs, anyway? I don't think anyone is saying that the Chinese can't run great raids as probably everyone in this thread has run with them and been suitably and appropriately impressed.

I don't want to speak for Moops here but I know that one of the reasons that these speed runs are done is to generate interest in the form of friendly competition, to keep people excited about the game as they have a goal to shoot for. If you don't want to be part of that competition or don't want to be friendly about it, that's your choice, Kongo, but there's no reason to personally attack Moops when she's done nothing to warrant such bilious comments from you. In addition, many of your current guildies were involved in those speed records, do you feel as hostile towards them as you apparently are towards Moops?

[spyderwolf]

i did some testing in pvp as well. the level 7 spell overrides both the level 3 and 5 spells. the level 1 spell stacks with the level 7 spell. tested it multiple times and in different orders. the debuff to the actual stats only stacks with the level 7 and level 1 spells. casting the level 3 or 5 spells and then casting the level 7 spell is a waste as it results in no extra str debuff at all. this is in respoinse to a few posts abotu debuffs on this thread.

[Hadrian]

Man, I do 3 minute pug VODs all the time. Check out this irrefutable proof:

http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/8186/fake3.jpg (http://www.imagehosting.com/)

[adm5893]

degenerate into a flame war?

I was just looking for some advice. It appears there is some difference of opinion on the party make up. I think we all can respect those opinions especially if those opinions have been successful.

For the record, I recently completed and the key tactic wasn't necessarily the need or lack of need for WF tank.

It was the ability of the group to work together to take down the trash and orthons quickly. Healing by the clerics, and casting of crowd control by the casters during the last bat spawn.

I guess it goes back to Team Work or knowing ones role and knowing ones capabilities in a raid.

Which also can be applied to other raids and quests.

[Enochroot]

Log in at about 2am PST and join ANY chinese pug. You may be surpised at what they do.

Wow, you're like the biggest **** I've ever seen on the forums. Congrats.

I play consistently through Chinese hours (live in Singapore) - and I while I'm in many solid Chinese runs, I've never seen close to a 6 minute "random" Chinese pug, nor even sub 15 minutes. (Not that they couldn't, but it's not like their pugs just nuke the quest every time)


If you're going to be such a **** post some of these sub 7 minute runs. There are plenty of Chinese achievements posted all the time, and I'm pretty sure there hasn't been a sub-7 post.


Also - regarding WF versus fleshie versus AC versus HP argument - it's generally thought of that WF = low AC high DPS and fleshie = AC. So ... don't be a **** about it. No one will be "racist" if you join with an AC WF tank. Stop being ridiculous.

[kanbeki]

while not having to heal the main tank is nice and all, having everyone else in the group turn off there power attack isn't too keen. at least for pugs. just sayin

[kuro_zero]

degenerate into a flame war?

Wondering the same, wondering the same.


It was the ability of the group to work together to take down the trash and orthons quickly. Healing by the clerics, and casting of crowd control by the casters during the last bat spawn.

I guess it goes back to Team Work or knowing ones role and knowing ones capabilities in a raid.

Which also can be applied to other raids and quests.

QFT. Well said.

[Enochroot]

while not having to heal the main tank is nice and all, having everyone else in the group turn off there power attack isn't too keen. at least for pugs. just sayin

A good AC tank will only have aggro stolen by the top DPSers on Sully. And if the party lets him know when they're coming in and he's haste boosting, they probably can too. And if it's on normal, that AC tank can rock PA as well, and no reason for the group not to.

Just sayin.

[Phidius]

while not having to heal the main tank is nice and all, having everyone else in the group turn off there power attack isn't too keen. at least for pugs. just sayin

Actually, I'd rather everyone turn off PA and add a few extra minutes to ensure an easy, low-resource run than wait an extra 60+ minutes before starting the quest because it's hard to find cleric's willing to shell out the bucks to help us get completion. Especially when you consider that it's too much DPS that seems to kill the group at the end (premature spawning of orthons/bats).

I don't mind spending the resources to get the items I'm looking for, but I don't PUG the toons who have them already.

[ubis46]

Tell turbine to bring back all those players everyone in the game thought need to go and you dogged on many post, as they did 21 minute VODS all day long without cheating i might add! just a thought

[Roman]

Op, my appologies for puting poo poo in your thread :(

Congrats on your completion! Teamwork certainly is the key, as well as a good leader that can get things back on track when everything doesnt go as planned.


To all those hung up on speed runs...

Due to scheduling for a contract I was on, I was only able to play during very early morning hours which seemed to be peak Chinese hours. During those 8 weeks I ran about 12 each of VoD, Shroud, Hound.

My very first raid during this time period was VoD, I joined an LFM and off we went. Completion time 10 minutes. Several more 10 minute runs during the next couple of weeks. Now, to be honest I didn't even know what my regular VoD run times were, but 10 minutes definitely seemed faster than usual. In fact, I don't even look at completion times unless the raid seemed abnormaly long or shorter than usual.

Anyway, I get a blind invite to run a VoD pug one morning. When we get to the raid I am told to focus on Sally. In fact every single melee was on Sally. There was no main tank and no orthon tank. Clerics mass healed and we fought Sally every second that she was on the ground, trash was ignored until she went up to her perch. Once she went up, we would clean up trash. DPS lag was horrble and several times I thought my laptop had frozen, then I would see a flood of red numbers come in short bursts, then everything would freeze again.

In the final minutes the lag was horrible, everythng would freeze for 2 or 3 seconds then I would see a few seconds of action, then freeze again. Then after one final freeze, I see the completion message. Completion time 8 minutes. Everyone in the group was excited and they started running through the spike traps. I'm guessing they were happy about the time. few days later I get invite again and same thing with completion time 7 minutes. Again the spike trap dance of joy. I had another 7 minute completion, a few 8 minute and nothing over 10 minutes during those 6 weeks.

It never occurred to me to screenshot it, it seemed like something these guys did on a regular basis. And to be honest I didnt think it was that much fun. I think 10-15 minute runs are more fun and relaxing to be honest. And a greater diversity of people can handle a 10-15 minute VoD using good strategy. It doesnt require 12 uber tweeked players to accomplish.

As far as the speed runs I went on the only strategy was maximum sustainable DPS on Sally and pray the lag didnt trip you up. The major reason I don't care for speed runs is they exclude a large number of peole who simply don't have the equipment to keep up. I don't thikn speed runs bring the community together, they just seem to alienate the uber leet from the majority regular folks. Speed runs aren't about skill or strategy so much as superior equipment. And once the great lag barrier has been breached I'm sure the top 1% will be running sub 7 minute VoD's on a regular basis, no strategy or thinking needed; just ultra leet builds with the best equipment need apply.

More impressive to me is a regular pug of folks that complete VoD in 10 or even 15 minutes using brains and strategy to overcome an imperfect group.

[Phidius]

Op, my appologies for puting poo poo in your thread :(

Congrats on your completion! Teamwork certainly is the key, as well as a good leader that can get things back on track when everything doesnt go as planned.


To all those hung up on speed runs...

Due to scheduling for a contract I was on, I was only able to play during very early morning hours which seemed to be peak Chinese hours. During those 8 weeks I ran about 12 each of VoD, Shroud, Hound.

My very first raid during this time period was VoD, I joined an LFM and off we went. Completion time 10 minutes. Several more 10 minute runs during the next couple of weeks. Now, to be honest I didn't even know what my regular VoD run times were, but 10 minutes definitely seemed faster than usual. In fact, I don't even look at completion times unless the raid seemed abnormaly long or shorter than usual.

Anyway, I get a blind invite to run a VoD pug one morning. When we get to the raid I am told to focus on Sally. In fact every single melee was on Sally. There was no main tank and no orthon tank. Clerics mass healed and we fought Sally every second that she was on the ground, trash was ignored until she went up to her perch. Once she went up, we would clean up trash. DPS lag was horrble and several times I thought my laptop had frozen, then I would see a flood of red numbers come in short bursts, then everything would freeze again.

In the final minutes the lag was horrible, everythng would freeze for 2 or 3 seconds then I would see a few seconds of action, then freeze again. Then after one final freeze, I see the completion message. Completion time 8 minutes. Everyone in the group was excited and they started running through the spike traps. I'm guessing they were happy about the time. few days later I get invite again and same thing with completion time 7 minutes. Again the spike trap dance of joy. I had another 7 minute completion, a few 8 minute and nothing over 10 minutes during those 6 weeks.

It never occurred to me to screenshot it, it seemed like something these guys did on a regular basis. And to be honest I didnt think it was that much fun. I think 10-15 minute runs are more fun and relaxing to be honest. And a greater diversity of people can handle a 10-15 minute VoD using good strategy. It doesnt require 12 uber tweeked players to accomplish.

As far as the speed runs I went on the only strategy was maximum sustainable DPS on Sally and pray the lag didnt trip you up. The major reason I don't care for speed runs is they exclude a large number of peole who simply don't have the equipment to keep up. I don't thikn speed runs bring the community together, they just seem to alienate the uber leet from the majority regular folks. Speed runs aren't about skill or strategy so much as superior equipment. And once the great lag barrier has been breached I'm sure the top 1% will be running sub 7 minute VoD's on a regular basis, no strategy or thinking needed; just ultra leet builds with the best equipment need apply.

More impressive to me is a regular pug of folks that complete VoD in 10 or even 15 minutes using brains and strategy to overcome an imperfect group.

Well said: +1 rep

I'm impressed by PUGs who can complete using brains and strategy to overcome an imperfect group, regardless of completion time.

[gfunk]

Op, my appologies for puting poo poo in your thread :(

Congrats on your completion! Teamwork certainly is the key, as well as a good leader that can get things back on track when everything doesnt go as planned.


To all those hung up on speed runs...

Due to scheduling for a contract I was on, I was only able to play during very early morning hours which seemed to be peak Chinese hours. During those 8 weeks I ran about 12 each of VoD, Shroud, Hound.

My very first raid during this time period was VoD, I joined an LFM and off we went. Completion time 10 minutes. Several more 10 minute runs during the next couple of weeks. Now, to be honest I didn't even know what my regular VoD run times were, but 10 minutes definitely seemed faster than usual. In fact, I don't even look at completion times unless the raid seemed abnormaly long or shorter than usual.

Anyway, I get a blind invite to run a VoD pug one morning. When we get to the raid I am told to focus on Sally. In fact every single melee was on Sally. There was no main tank and no orthon tank. Clerics mass healed and we fought Sally every second that she was on the ground, trash was ignored until she went up to her perch. Once she went up, we would clean up trash. DPS lag was horrble and several times I thought my laptop had frozen, then I would see a flood of red numbers come in short bursts, then everything would freeze again.

In the final minutes the lag was horrible, everythng would freeze for 2 or 3 seconds then I would see a few seconds of action, then freeze again. Then after one final freeze, I see the completion message. Completion time 8 minutes. Everyone in the group was excited and they started running through the spike traps. I'm guessing they were happy about the time. few days later I get invite again and same thing with completion time 7 minutes. Again the spike trap dance of joy. I had another 7 minute completion, a few 8 minute and nothing over 10 minutes during those 6 weeks.

It never occurred to me to screenshot it, it seemed like something these guys did on a regular basis. And to be honest I didnt think it was that much fun. I think 10-15 minute runs are more fun and relaxing to be honest. And a greater diversity of people can handle a 10-15 minute VoD using good strategy. It doesnt require 12 uber tweeked players to accomplish.

As far as the speed runs I went on the only strategy was maximum sustainable DPS on Sally and pray the lag didnt trip you up. The major reason I don't care for speed runs is they exclude a large number of peole who simply don't have the equipment to keep up. I don't thikn speed runs bring the community together, they just seem to alienate the uber leet from the majority regular folks. Speed runs aren't about skill or strategy so much as superior equipment. And once the great lag barrier has been breached I'm sure the top 1% will be running sub 7 minute VoD's on a regular basis, no strategy or thinking needed; just ultra leet builds with the best equipment need apply.

More impressive to me is a regular pug of folks that complete VoD in 10 or even 15 minutes using brains and strategy to overcome an imperfect group.

Speed runs do not require uber gear neccesarily, and those sort of attempts are only an occasional run here and there so I hardly think that anyone needs to feel excluded from the majority of play. In fact our 25 minute Elite Shroud was done with no green steel weaponry. Mostly people were using weapons like transmuting of pure-good. We did a trial normal run and found that even with mostly plain transmuters, we were able to do a 1 rounder in part 4. Party coordination is far more important than high end gear, especially in VOD.

More on topic, to have a successful VOD run, people need to be very aware of their positioning at all times... its the single most important aspect of the raid IMO. Here are some positioning aspects that the leader should remind people of during the raid:

1) people who don't have agro should attack orthons from the back.
2) stay in whatever CC the group is using!!! (We use fog AOE's quite often), or stay grouped instead of running after devils (wait for them to come to you.. they die almost instantly when confronting a tightly ).
3) stay in formation and block if you steal agro from the main tank (if you run away you will just scatter the party and cause chaos)
4) stay in whatever CC the group is using... wait, did I say that already? I could swear nobody heard me because you are all running around like drunken monkeys...arrggh... here come the bats!

Groups with this kind of coordination do well because of much higher killing efficiency and better effectiveness of mass healing. Keep people in the same healing radius and mobs will die faster and less resources will be spent.

In fact, I think that a group with plain transmuters and cheap vorpals could probably manage a quicker VOD completion time then a tricked out raid gear group because of decreased lag.

Also, when the final wave of bats come (the most common fail point in most raids imo) there are several ways to take care of things:

1) if you are a cleric, throw down a few maximized blade barriers as soon as the orthons are dead.. it uses far less mana then having to try and heal the party from all the fire damage. Double check that they have fire protect up.
2) If you are a caster, cast fire shield on yourself, then either blanket the entire area with web or start spamming mass protect from elements on the party (probably scrolls only if you are a sorc). You can kill bats effectively with spells like cone of cold and ball lightning.
3) if you are a melee, double check that you have fire protect up.. umd a fire shield scroll if you have the ability (32 DC I think).

Also, if you are the main tank, stop beating on sally when the orthons come, until they are dead (if you are killing them), as the bats trigger based on sally's HP level, and you generally dont want to have them at the same time (oops).

[Vileborg]

I've run this quite a few times, and the only time I've run into troubles with a raid is when the raid leader has a different strategy from the commonly accepted strategy. The bat phase has been the cause of the only failures I've ever had on this raid. The biggest failure I've had is because the raid leader expected me to put down blade barriers instead of using the mass healing strategy. Unfortunately, I wasn't told that this would be the strategy until after the bats spawned, and by then it's too late on many accounts. I was in place and committed to mass healing, in fact had started the process. The group ran off and took detonations wiping rather quickly. Pandemonium ensued, and the end result was a wipe with only a sliver left on the boss. The run cost me 3/4 mil Gold in resources and a nice verbal bashing. So my advice would be to ensure you inform everyone what strategy you plan on using to make sure everyone is on the same page.

My second piece of advice would be to all raiders. One of the biggest tasks that takes a player from a standard PuG raider to an asset on any raid is the amount of damage and survivability of your toon. I see way too many people who don't focus on HP's and then get ****ed when they die. I honestly don't know what a good threshold would be, but my cleric has just shy of 300 and is quite survivable in most cases. I've encountered melee that have 200 or less and are shocked when they die instantly from certain blasts, or start taking considerable damage during a heal cast on another player. If I'm casting heal on someone else when you start taking damage there's a global cooldown and a delay from the time your heal is keyed until it lands that I can't do anything about while your dying, but if you have a few more hitpoints to register the damage and survive the global cooldown, and landing delay, rest assured another heal is coming in your direction as fast as you can register your health has dropped.

The other part is raid damage. Part of every persons job on the raid is too avoid unnecessary damage. I honestly don't know how certain melee manage to take next to no damage on orothons while others require a constant stream of heals, but at some point healing you exceeds your benefit to the raid, and rather than drain all resources on a person I've had to turn off the faucet of heals to save the raid. This happens more so during phase 4 of shroud in which ranged dps casters and rangers alike sit there and take whole cycles of blades through them, but it also happens on orothons. If you are fighting a boss next to someone and your taking tons more damage, ask them what they are doing to avoid damage, it's part of your job.

I don't want to sound like an elitest, because I am flawed and I don't know everything there is to know about my class, gear, or even how certain raids work, but if your willing to take the time to give advice I'll be glad to listen. I've already learned a great deal more about this raid for the countless amounts of good advice posted here, and for the knowledge I am eternally grateful.

Farasin - 16 Cleric - Sarlona

[Enochroot]

My second piece of advice would be to all raiders. One of the biggest tasks that takes a player from a standard PuG raider to an asset on any raid is the amount of damage and survivability of your toon. I see way too many people who don't focus on HP's and then get ****ed when they die. I honestly don't know what a good threshold would be, but my cleric has just shy of 300 and is quite survivable in most cases. I've encountered melee that have 200 or less and are shocked when they die instantly from certain blasts, or start taking considerable damage during a heal cast on another player. If I'm casting heal on someone else when you start taking damage there's a global cooldown and a delay from the time your heal is keyed until it lands that I can't do anything about while your dying, but if you have a few more hitpoints to register the damage and survive the global cooldown, and landing delay, rest assured another heal is coming in your direction as fast as you can register your health has dropped.


Interesting you say this -

One - your cleric could have more yourself unless you started with 8 con. Which I hope isn't true.

Two - a cleric should never die in VoD during the bats - ever, unless he gets sully aggro. And generally this means the MT has gone down. Generally this means you have failed your task already.

Run in jumping circles, forever. Heal the MT at all costs - quickened curse/heal/mass pro works pretty well. Rinse, repeat. Reapply your own pro's if necessary. I've solo supermanned a non-WF fleshie ranger this way easily on an 1170 sp dex-based battlecleric.


Judge not, lest ye be judged yourself.

[Vileborg]

Could you elaborate on the different ways to stack HP's on a toon? I've tapped into a few but as I stated above I'm don't know all the answers.

Strategies differ, when you are using a Mass Healing Strategy that involves being in close proximity for heals, and then raid runs off and explodes that leaves you a pretty prime target for a mass invasion of bats from all directions.

It's like the north staging strategy for part four of shroud. Being near the north portal allows your healers and casters to get just within casting range and entirely miss the waves of blades circling as by the time they path from their west starting spot around to the north they are far enough into the spiral as to not cross through your party, but the staging area is unfamiliar to people, and causes mass confusion whenever a raiding party uses that strategy.
I find it fairly easy to either hug the wall or move inside the first pass and then duck outside the second pass and completely miss the blades, so either strategy works for me but if you didn't tell me you were using the north strategy I'd be at the normal spot with probably half the raid.

[BlackSteel]

2. The smoothest runs I've been on have included a high AC main tank. If you have a WF main tank who's depending on DR, make sure you have plenty of Reconstruct scolls. For example, I always carried 200 when I was one of 2 casters. Rarely did I use more than 120, but it's better to be prepared. Unless your casters have 8,000-9,000 spell points, that is.


I refuse to tank on my barbarian unless theres a WF sorc that I trust. Theres absolutely no reason a sorc cant do it with mostly their SP, using scrolls for simple burst healing if/when necessary. Fleshy wizards, or people who pick up reconstruct w/o any enhancements usually end up overburdened very very fast trying to heal the main wf tank. I've had too many VoDs that had to change strats mid quest b/c the WF healer was just insufficient, whereas I've never had a problem when picking up a WF healer who was WF themselves.

Popping recon scrolls w/o scroll enhancements, or using the spell w/o a few ranks in force/repair is far less effective than having a fleshie tank with a decent will save.

Back when I was doing regular runs tho, I always ran it with a guildee sorc. And we had a little extra strat worked out where when orthons popped he would drag one over to me while tanking sulu. I'd always try to help by taking down 1 orthon while the rest of the raid took down the other 3. Sometimes in a bad group this might involve 2 orthons. And even had one raid where everyone else just seemed lost, and me and the sorc had to do 3 of the 4 orthons ourselves in the corner with sulu while rest of party got together on 1.

To the OP, if you're concerned about failures, particularly if you're the cleric. Find out whose the main tank/main healer before joining. If you dont know em, dont join the group. Or start your own group and cherry pick who joins.

[Enochroot]

Could you elaborate on the different ways to stack HP's on a toon? I've tapped into a few but as I stated above I'm don't know all the answers.

Strategies differ, when you are using a Mass Healing Strategy that involves being in close proximity for heals, and then raid runs off and explodes that leaves you a pretty prime target for a mass invasion of bats from all directions.

It's like the north staging strategy for part four of shroud. Being near the north portal allows your healers and casters to get just within casting range and entirely miss the waves of blades circling as by the time they path from their west starting spot around to the north they are far enough into the spiral as to not cross through your party, but the staging area is unfamiliar to people, and causes mass confusion whenever a raiding party uses that strategy.
I find it fairly easy to either hug the wall or move inside the first pass and then duck outside the second pass and completely miss the blades, so either strategy works for me but if you didn't tell me you were using the north strategy I'd be at the normal spot with probably half the raid.


In terms of HP "stacking" - I dont know what you're asking about. Base HP+Con+GFL+GS+Con Tome+Minos - 14 con non-wf or dwarf should come in around 350 after minos fix (right now should be around 370), more if you fit toughness into your build.

For VoD - it matters not what the party strategy is, in terms of your fall-back plan. The order of importance for keeping up from least important:

casters
squishie poor dps melee
poor dps melee
squishie dps melee
dps melee
the other cleric
MT <-- in SE corner behind suul will block much bat explosions
yourself <-- yourself running in circles and jumping is your best survival tactic

Let them die in that order. Do not ever, EVER let the last two die. No matter what strategy you employ. Center mass heal on MT if you need to - as soon as the rest of the list has dropped (or most of the rest, and mass heals no long make sense) - just keep that MT up and for the love of god, keep yourself up. Don't even bother ressing unless you're pretty **** sure they won't just die again. But since they died the first time buffed up, odds are, without buffs and with death penalty, they'll probably die again, so it's on my list of low importance.

I don't even know what you're talking about in shroud 4, you could very well be right about whatever it is - I've always run in circles, and I will always continue to run in circles, at least on non-evasion toons.

[soupertc]

wow I'm away for awhile and look what this thread became!!!!

I've done every "JOB" in this raid....and none are to hard or take up resources. I've solo clericed this on hard in a PUG and didn't use a single pot...used 34 Mass Mods and 20 Heal scrolls. I've been solo healer on warforged and not used a pot and used 50 recontruct scrolls.

This raid is not recources intensive.

[Thelmallen]

wow I'm away for awhile and look what this thread became!!!!

I've done every "JOB" in this raid....and none are to hard or take up resources. I've solo clericed this on hard in a PUG and didn't use a single pot...used 34 Mass Mods and 20 Heal scrolls. I've been solo healer on warforged and not used a pot and used 50 recontruct scrolls.

This raid is not recources intensive.

Did you have a fire resist buff on? Just wondering. If you need some clickies, I've got a few for you. :)

[Theboz]

Just join any Vod group with plastikman in it and you will for the most part get a smooth run. I always pug Vod just for the fun of it, I dont need anything in it anymore(35 runs)running mostly as the main tank.

I alway laugh at lfms that ask for WF main tank, ill send them a tell asking," would you take a High AC monk/ranger, I only need a bard to heal me and if needed I can heal myself if im not under madstone at the time" and most of the time I get turned down, no biggie though, plenty more out there.

I do agree, hving a WF tank doing elite does make it easier from what I have seen, but if I have the correct buffs and sulu has the been debuffed its no harder for a monk/ranger.

[soupertc]

Did you have a fire resist buff on? Just wondering. If you need some clickies, I've got a few for you. :)

nah I cast buffs for people man.....but I'm glad ya got those N. Posion clickies I sent ya.....can't wait to use that Copper Fest Token you sent me.

The fact that people are debating what other people want or how to run THIER own group is kinda funny....we run exclusivly doin the WF tank method...we don't ever run it on normal, it's either hard or elite. I've done a 5 man guild run with me as a cleric and we did a AC fleshie route....it's was pretty easy...well up till the end...but overall not much harder.....we did that run on hard. I don't care how it's done as long as it's done. In the long run everyone thinks thier way is superior....but ya know what.....it's probably not....cause if it was that's the way eveyone would do it. I know I learn something new from time to time in this game.....anyone who says or thinks they are right are highly mistaken.

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

I don't care how it's done as long as it's done. In the long run everyone thinks thier way is superior....but ya know what.....it's probably not....cause if it was that's the way eveyone would do it. I know I learn something new from time to time in this game.....anyone who says or thinks they are right are highly mistaken.

more groups prefer to run WF tank because it's 'safer' - there's no real equipment/feats/skill that your WF tank needs other than maybe a transmuting axe (I did run once where the WF tank insisted on using cloudburst, he got swapped out pretty quickly). If you go the AC route then it's a lot more 'dicey' - if you can get someone who can get their AC to >72 then it's fine, but that requires grinding, equipment, the right buffs (and debuffs). Sometimes it's just 'easier' to go with the lowest common denominator and 'brute force' the raid. I prefer to finesse my raids myself.

Garth

[soupertc]

more groups prefer to run WF tank because it's 'safer' - there's no real equipment/feats/skill that your WF tank needs other than maybe a transmuting axe (I did run once where the WF tank insisted on using cloudburst, he got swapped out pretty quickly). If you go the AC route then it's a lot more 'dicey' - if you can get someone who can get their AC to >72 then it's fine, but that requires grinding, equipment, the right buffs (and debuffs). Sometimes it's just 'easier' to go with the lowest common denominator and 'brute force' the raid. I prefer to finesse my raids myself.

Garth

I'm not sure if having someone standing there and not getting hit is finesse myself. It's just a diffrent way of getting to point B.