View Full Version : Rogue splash Drow TWF Warchanter?
Aerendil
07-23-2009, 08:16 AM
Was mulling this over lastnight while playing my Spellsinger, and was curious if anyone's tried it. I'm at work now, so I can't crunch the stats/numbers in the chargen tool, but here are my thoughts on this. Feel free to nitpick :)
- Bards are proficient in both rapier and shortsword, which requires neither a melee splash to open up the weaponry, nor does it require OTWF to offset any penalties. If I end up with dual rapiers at endgame, the racial bonuses + weapon focus (WC prereq) should easily offset a lack of OTWF.
- Additionally, I tend to play my Bards as dps contributers, not as the main dps itself. I'll never match a frenzied Barbarian, or a Tempest III Ranger, or a 20 Kensai with dual khopeshes. It's just not going to happen. And I'm never the first one into a room, unless I'm aiming to fascinate them for the team. So why compete with the real dpsers? Let them take the hits, and I'll simply help out. As a result, rapier/shortsword or rapier/rapier is good enough for me, and this also frees up a few feats as I won't require OTWF nor would I require Exotic:Khopesh. I'm thinking TWF/ITWF/GTWF, WF:Piercing, PA, Finesse, and one free (Toughness, Extend, or I:Crit:Piercing). It's still tight, but it always is with Warchanters, isn't it? :)
- Bards are a 3/4 BAB class, so it's important to boost that BAB as high as possible. As a TWFer has a lot stat points tied up between STR and DEX, they're never going to have an end-game STR of titanic proportions. It's just not going to happen. So why not go a Finesse build and just dump it all into DEX?
- Bard AC is generally laughable, so why not go the Robes route and simply pump up DEX and ignore armour altogether? If you're the type to carry around plenty of robes, you could also have a nice assortment that takes 0 time to swap out for various encounters. Robe of Deathward for when you need it, for example.
- 2 Rogue levels will grant Evasion, haste boost, sneak attack (1d6 + 3 from 1 enhancement point), and + 1 DEX. Plus extra skill points I can use to either boost my Bardic skills, or to pick up a few extra skills (i.e. Spot, Open Lock. It's always nice to be able to open locks, but it's even better to be able to see my enemies before they hit me :p). I could also go Halfling for some further sneak attack damage, but it's quite enhancement intensive, and I want to ensure I max out my IC songs and get some other toys as well.
- the #1 killer when I'm on my Bard is generally AoE spells. I don't care if I have 400 hps. If I'm constantly getting fireballed, or ray'ed, or whatever, and the Cleric is struggling to keep me up (or I'm burning my own spell points keeping myself up), it's not efficient at all. Evasion would cure a lot of the squishiness of a Bard, and could even make up for a lack of Toughness feats. And with Bard 18 (+11 reflex) + Rogue 2 (+3 reflex) + 34ish DEX (see below - that's +12 mod) + various Bardic songs/spells, I should be sitting at over a 30 reflex save, which is hopefully enough for most quests (barring the occasional Elite quest).
- AC might not turn out to be so bad. Off the top of my head, if I went 18 DEX to start + 5 (lvl ups) + 6 (item) + 1 (Rogue level) + 2 (racial) + 2 (tome), I'd end up with a final dex of 34. If I ever got my hands on a +4 tome, that's 36. But even with a 34, that's +12 to AC. So with raid gear, you could easily be looking at a nice mid-50s AC (assuming Icy, Chattering, +4 insight, etc, etc.). It's nothing tank-worthy, but it's also nothing to sneeze at either. Your stoneskins will last longer and be 20 times more effective if your enemies don't auto-hit you, or if you're Evading spells a majority of the time.
- damage overall shouldn't be *too* bad, really. A starting STR of 14 + 6 (item) + 2 (rage) is still very low (I'll feel like a Monk), but it's the bonuses that really do your damage for you with this setup. +2 (racial) + whatever from Inspire Courage (I think it maxes at +8 right now with Tier I and full enhancements?) + 6 (str) + 5 (power attack, which will be on 24/7 as your BAB will be quite large) + 4-7 (sneak attack damage) + whatever weapon enchantment you have (+5?). It adds up. But as I said before, I'm not trying to compete with the kensais or tempests - I just want to be able to contribute, which I think this kind of build could do. 25+ damage per swing isn't too bad :)
Any thoughts on this? Has anyone tried out this build or something similar?
baddax
07-23-2009, 08:26 AM
whats starting stats?
pretty sure GTWF isnt available at 16 but 20 should be fine.
Thrudh
07-23-2009, 08:34 AM
There are lot of bard/rogues out there... It's a very viable combination...
I have one (13/3. he'll be 16/4 at cap), but he's a spell-singer
Feats will be a concern for a warchanter...
7 feats by 18th level
Weapon Focus: Pierce
Power Attack
TWF
ITWF
GTWF
Improved Critical:Pierce
Leaving you only one feat (probably Toughness, but you're going to wish you had Extend too). And note that there's no Weapon Finesse in here, so you'll have to be strength-based..
But you can't neglect Dexterity either... One, you need a 17 base Dex for ITWF and GTWF, second, you need at least a high 20s Reflex save for your evasion to be effective...
And of course you need a decent CON and CHA too :)
I wouldn't worry about AC... Stoneskin, Displacement, and self-healing is all you need, plus smart aggro management (always off-tank)
I'm not sure what the best warchanter bard/rogue build would be... I'd hate to go less than 18 levels of bard, since someday bards will have Tier III Prestige Enhancements too..
Aerendil
07-23-2009, 08:44 AM
whats starting stats?
pretty sure GTWF isnt available at 16 but 20 should be fine.
Yeah, if I have to wait until 18, that's ok I suppose. It would hurt, but it wouldn't break the deal.
Starting stats of maybe Str 14, Dex 18, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 12. Could juggle those around a bit if I didn't want any Rogue skills, and lower Int and up either Con or Cha or something I suppose. It's all hypothetical at this point and I don't have the character generator thingie on my work computer to really toy with it.
There are lot of bard/rogues out there... It's a very viable combination...
I have one (13/3. he'll be 16/4 at cap), but he's a spell-singer
Feats will be a concern for a warchanter...
7 feats by 18th level
Weapon Focus: Pierce
Power Attack
TWF
ITWF
GTWF
Improved Critical:Pierce
Leaving you only one feat (probably Toughness, but you're going to wish you had Extend too). And note that there's no Weapon Finesse in here, so you'll have to be strength-based..
Yeah, the tier III thing is a must, really. I won't splash more than 2 levels. In much the same way as most Warchanters are aiming for anything between a pure 20 Bard and an 18 Bard / 2 Fighter setup. I'm just swapping out the Fighter for Rogue with this.
I've thought about this before, actually, but the skill synergy isn't the best and makes a pure trapspringer inviable IMO, so that previously put me off of splashing Rogue (4 skills are cross-class - Spot, Search, OL, Disable Device. Too many!).
Feat setup would probably be what you have listed, but changing GTWF for Finesse and leaving GTWF until 18. Loss of Extend will make me somewhat sad, but it's only really the first dozen levels where that's a critical ability - after that it'll only hurt Rage/Displacement/Haste for the most part. Lack of Toughness is also painful, and would leave me with short HPs at end-game, but that's where the AC and Evasion hopefully makes up for it.
*edit* - also, regarding AC, displacement doesn't last too long, and stoneskin seems to come down quickly when under heavy fire, and having to wand-whip it back up takes away from dps, as swapping out weapons/items without Quick Draw is time-consuming. The longer Stoneskin lasts, the longer I can happily swing away in melee :)
Thanimal
07-23-2009, 09:04 AM
Personally I am predicting that the higher tiers of Warchanter will be fairly unimpressive, much like the higher tiers of Tempest, and for the same reason: the first tier is too good to continue a linear progression. The result would be ridiculously overpowered.
Because of that, I'm not very afraid of splashing into a DPS-oriented Warchanter. I guess you have to decide just how all-out DPS you want to go. Personally I'm not much of an active caster (to put it mildly), but the Warchanter songs and buffs are absolutely fantastic.
So with many of the same ideas as you mention, I ended up making a Dwarf Bard N/Fighter 2/Rogue 2. The extra fighter levels alleviate the feat situation a bit, and with dwarven axe coming free, the Dwarf is able to deal some pretty good damage in a dual-wield. This path also allows some tolerable AC in Mithral Breastplate -- because Bards can't do the Monk splash, this was actually the best AC I was able to find out of various paths I examined. It's a STR-focused build (including bumps at levels), so I'm reasonably confident it has way more DPS than the finesse direction you outlined.
Dwarf seems a strange choice for a Bard, but a DPS-oriented Warchanter really doesn't need much CHA. It does, however, get tremendous offensive benefits (Dwarven axe and enhancements) and defensive benefits (small increases in AC from being able to use extra DEX, and significant increases in spell saves). In particular, Fortitude saves tend to be horrible on a Bard, so the +3 from the Fighter splash and the up-to +7 from dwarfiness (4 more CON points and 5 from maxed spell resist line) are pretty awesome.
Anhow, I've only played Victorrea to level 6 so far, but I've found her very enjoyable to play. She brings a lot of what people like about Bards to the table, along with quite decent DPS of her own. Of course, she is mediocre-at-best in the role of backup cleric and doesn't bother to carry any spells that have a save (since everything will save). So it all depends on what you're looking for. But the goals and observations you made in the OP seem to me to mesh very well with this build.
If you're interested in more details, let me know.
Thanimal
07-23-2009, 09:10 AM
Also, here's a very interesting build to examine for ideas:
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=190225
It's a Bard 20, but I think it would be pretty doable to add 2 Rogue to the build if you want Evasion, because it doesn't count on any extra feats.
Aerendil
07-23-2009, 09:14 AM
Personally I am predicting that the higher tiers of Warchanter will be fairly unimpressive, much like the higher tiers of Tempest, and for the same reason: the first tier is too good to continue a linear progression. The result would be ridiculously overpowered.
*snip*
It's a STR-focused build (including bumps at levels), so I'm reasonably confident it has way more DPS than the finesse direction you outlined.
Dwarf seems a strange choice for a Bard, but a DPS-oriented Warchanter really doesn't need much CHA.
*snip*.
Thanimal - yeah, I'm not sure about the upper tiers of Warchanter. Hard to say, really. But yes, if it's a linear progression of +1 to hit / +2 damage per tier, plus other goodies, that would be quite overpowered. So I'd imagine it gets toned down at some point, or they offer something else in it's stead. I've also seen suggestions that tier I is changed to +1/+1 and further tiers are +1/+1 as well. Who knows at this point. It's all speculation :)
Regarding STR-based build, yeah, you'd most likely to more dps. I'm not trying to be a great dps'er with this build. As I mentioned above, there's no way even the strongest melee Bards will be competing with the dps of a level 20 frenzied Barbarian, or an 18/1/1 Ranger Tempest III build against favored enemies, or even the pure 20 Fighter Kensais. Heck, even a Zeal'ed, DM4 TWF Paladin is going to leave us in the dust, especially against evil outsiders!
So had I wanted to go more dps, I'd go Human with Khopesh, or Dwarf (as you did) with DAxes (and no, Dwarf isn't an unusual Bard race - it's quite good, actually, for Warchanter!). But of course if I went DAxe or Khopesh, I'd probably be splashing Fighter instead, which ruins the point of splashing Rogue and going Drow with it's built-in rapier/shortsword freebies. And I'm not convinced that extra bit of dps is worth the loss of Evasion, extra AC, better reflex save, and racial bonuses. It just boils down to a slightly different build. Your average /Fighter splash will have a much better Fort save; I'll have a much better Reflex. Against certain spells, we'll both still be pretty vulnerable.
/shrug :)
Aerendil
07-23-2009, 09:19 AM
One further note is that with such a disgusting DEX score, a large number of Bard skills will have tremendous boosts. Balance, Hide, Move Silently, and Tumble can all be pretty impressive with +12 to them from Dex, even if I haven't maxed them out, and allow me some interesting solo capabilities. And I can still max ranks in Jump and Swim if I wanted those as well.
Thanimal
07-23-2009, 09:28 AM
Thanimal - yeah, I'm not sure about the upper tiers of Warchanter. Hard to say, really. But yes, if it's a linear progression of +1 to hit / +2 damage per tier, plus other goodies, that would be quite overpowered. So I'd imagine it gets toned down at some point, or they offer something else in it's stead. I've also seen suggestions that tier I is changed to +1/+1 and further tiers are +1/+1 as well. Who knows at this point. It's all speculation :)
Just to be clear, the reason I brought that up is that I'm splashing 4 non-Bard levels, and I AM getting Evasion (Fighter 2/Rogue 2). In fact, I pretty much can't play a character who doesn't have Evasion. I think much of what you claim I'm "losing" is not correct (except I'll admit Reflex save, but I'm far more concerned about Fort save -- any Bard/Rogue TWF is doing to have a good Reflex save). But I'm too lazy to run all the numbers today. :)
Aerendil
07-23-2009, 09:45 AM
Thanimal - yeah, I didn't mean to imply that :) Sorry for any confusion.
For me, though, I can't have Evasion without the Reflex save to back it up - so that's why I'm thinking of going all-out Dex. I want the survivability that a good Reflex + Evasion affords, as that's my #1 Bard gripe right now - I feel like I'm far too squishy in melee with my d6 hps, no Evasion, etc.
Stoneskin / Displacement only goes so far, and Toughness + toughness enhancements requires a feat and extra APs - neither of which I tend to have.
The other thing that brought the Dex to mind, was Rogues and Rangers who have decent AC even if they don't splash Monk. Not top AC, but not horrific either. And for me, there's no reason a Bard can't also achieve that same AC.
10 (base) + 8 (bracers) + 12 (34ish dex) + 5 (protection) + 5 (deflection) + 4 (insight) + 1 (ritual) + 1 (haste) + 4 (dodge - Icy) + 3 (dodge - chattering) + 4 (shield spell) = 57 AC. With a Paladin around, you're at 62 AC. If you had a second Bard in the group (not likely), that's a further +4 dodge AC from Heroics. That's not too shabby :)
Ironskin chant and/or a Robe of Invulnerability to soak up whatever splash damage you gain post mod9. It could work.
I'd feel much safer being in the thick of things with a 60+ AC and Evasion + a great reflex save.
Noctus
07-23-2009, 10:19 AM
Any thoughts on this? Has anyone tried out this build or something similar?I had a Drow 2 Rogue / 14 Bard. Warchanter with trapskills, leveled him to cap, raided much and was in the process of outfitting him with Shroud weapons when i switched to the US-Servers.
Several tips i can give you:
* AC is not worth it. Too short on slots and stats and feats to try to cramp that into the build. Ironskin Chant DR 5/- and Displacement + decent selfhealing are your AC. And with a very noticeable effect.
* You dont have any free feats to "waste" on Weapon Finesse. Go STR based. Also has higher synegies with you being perma-Raged.
* You need to get all the gear that raises your to-hit and your HP. Your weak point is HP, you will always be on the lower side. You can make an excellent off-tank, with noticeable damage contribution. just because you wont "win" the killcount race against fully DPS specced tanks doesnt mean you should slack off in the DPS department of your character.
* stat distribution was:
Strength 16 (all level ups in here)
Dexterity 16 (+1 DEX tome is easy to get off the AH)
Constitution 12
Intelligence 16 (if you have a +2 INT tome you are a lucky guy, great utility here on this build)
Wisdom 8
Charisma 10 /all you need to cast your spells)
Feats:
TWF, ITWF, Weapon Focus, Power Attack, Improved Critical, Thoughness
* GTWF at 18th, due to BAB constrains.
Thanimal
07-23-2009, 10:22 AM
Thanimal - yeah, I didn't mean to imply that :) Sorry for any confusion.
For me, though, I can't have Evasion without the Reflex save to back it up - so that's why I'm thinking of going all-out Dex. I want the survivability that a good Reflex + Evasion affords, as that's my #1 Bard gripe right now - I feel like I'm far too squishy in melee with my d6 hps, no Evasion, etc.
Stoneskin / Displacement only goes so far, and Toughness + toughness enhancements requires a feat and extra APs - neither of which I tend to have.
The other thing that brought the Dex to mind, was Rogues and Rangers who have decent AC even if they don't splash Monk. Not top AC, but not horrific either. And for me, there's no reason a Bard can't also achieve that same AC.
10 (base) + 8 (bracers) + 12 (34ish dex) + 5 (protection) + 5 (deflection) + 4 (insight) + 1 (ritual) + 1 (haste) + 4 (dodge - Icy) + 3 (dodge - chattering) + 4 (shield spell) = 57 AC. With a Paladin around, you're at 62 AC. If you had a second Bard in the group (not likely), that's a further +4 dodge AC from Heroics. That's not too shabby :)
Ironskin chant and/or a Robe of Invulnerability to soak up whatever splash damage you gain post mod9. It could work.
I'd feel much safer being in the thick of things with a 60+ AC and Evasion + a great reflex save.
All right, all right. You're gonna force me to run the numbers :). Firstly, you counted protection and deflection separately, but they're the same things. So your with-Paladin-buddy total is 57. Are you really going to wear Icy Raiments over DT Robe? That's gonna mess with your slots pretty horribly. Dedicating that many slots to AC to reach "barely" useful seems dubious. But anyhow, with the same assumptions:
Victorrea: 10 base + 12 armor (DT Breastplate) + 6 dex (including 3 dwarven enh) + 5 deflection + 4 insight + 1 ritual + 1 haste + 3 Dodge + 2 Dodge (Chaosgarde UMDed) + 4 shield spell + 5 Paladin = 53.
So the difference in potential is 4 points -- exactly equal to the Icy Raiments. If +4 Dodge becomes available on other equipment in the future, which seems fairly likely to me, then the difference is gone.
Next, reflex save at 16:
Bard 12: 8
Rogue 2: 3
Dex 24: 7
Resist: 5
GH: 4
Dwarf Spell Save Bonus: 5
Ritual item: 1
(not assuming a luck bonus -- probably want spell points on trinket)
---
33
If you want to run elite traps, then 28 (no dwarf spell bonus) isn't even close. But against damage spells, this should be save-on-2 territory, meaning additional reflex save is inactive. (EDIT: In fact, your proposed Drow with DEX of 34 [I only assumed a +1 Tome so apples to apples would be 34] has the same save vs. spell anyhow, I think. Those extra 10 points of DEX are +5 reflex save, equal to the full Dwarf bonus. Am I being too cavalier in assuming that "almost everything" you need to save against counts as a spell effect?)
So I think you're exaggerating the difference in defenses of the two builds. And since Fort save is inherently a weakness of Bards, my personal opinion is that Victorrea will actually "feel" a little tankier in most situations. But there's no doubt that she can't run Elite traps.
Then the dwarf STR direction gets non-trivially more DPS. I don't think it's accurate to say "well my DPS is worse than the Monster so my DPS doesn't matter." All additional DPS matters -- doesn't matter what character it comes from. And I'm pretty sure you'll find the gap is quite large, since Dwarf gets the same racial enhancements, but much more strength. And the other strike against the Finesse direction is that you have to spend yet one more feat in a class that is severely feat-starved.
Finally, you're worried about hit points as a liability of Bards, and the build I'm proposing has quite a lot more -- with significantly more CON, Toughness, and +10 from Fighter Toughness enhancements.
I'm not trying to shoot down your build idea, just making sure you measure the benefits you're getting carefully, and see if you think they are worth having significantly worse Fort save, significantly less DPS, and significantly less HP. Your answer may be yes, and that's totally fine.
Thanimal
07-23-2009, 10:27 AM
Btw, I think the #1 reason to go Drow here is if you want Rogue skills, such that you actually care about your INT. (Human is likely better for that, actually, and the extra feat is NICE.) But my personal opinion is that's a very large investment for a small amount of utility, so I went with INT 8. Your opinion may vary.
And Noctus reminded me of another reason I like the Fighter 2/Rogue 2 "splash" -- this package allows gTWF at 15 (where BAB is 1 Rogue + 2 Fighter + 8 Bard = 11), rather than 18. For me, 18 is a long way away.
Aerendil
07-23-2009, 11:00 AM
Thanimal : Thanks for crunching the numbers :) I can never be arsed to do that, to be honest.
Re: protection/deflection, well spotted. +1 for that. And as for DT robe vs. Icy, chances are I'd be DT robe as Icy is hard to come by, but I'd cross that bridge if/when I get there! The AC achievable though is really just a plus. I'm not aiming for the best possible AC - it's just more of a plus if I happen to acquire all of that gear. If I'm sitting at an average mid-50s AC, and it saves me a few hits, making my stoneskin last longer, I'll take it. Otherwise, I'm no better off than the rest of the Bards, which is fine with me. Just wishful thinking here, really.
The lack of GTWF until later levels is a typical issue with Warchanters, even Fighter specced, so I expect that. Chances are you're waiting until 15 or 18 for it in most cases, due to lack of feats but also BAB issues. So to me the difference between 15 and 18 is neglible. Most people are already 16, and will be 18+ within a week or two of DDO:EU release (a mere week and a half away).
Your build definitely has merit, though, but I just can't bring myself to ditch more than 2 levels of non-Bard. We're not sure what enhancements are going in yet, and losing WC3 *could* be massive. Hard to say, but the trend has been to make decent tier III PrEs. So really, it comes down to /2 Fighter vs. /2 Rogue, and this would offer a bit of uniqueness :p
Re: the Rogue skills, it's just difficult to pull off without sacrificing half of the Bard skills (such as Hide, MS, etc.), which I'm not willing to do, or without putting Int at 16+, which is costly for a build that doesn't otherwise use Int. 4 cross-class skills to maintain it is a LOT of points to use up.
Having Spot and Open Locks alone might be sufficient, but yeah, I'll crunch some numbers later and see how feasible it is.
As for dps, I'm not entirely throwing out the dps. I think with sneak attack damage, PA, maxed out IC song, and even a base STR of low 20s, it should still be significant. Keep in mind that your average 'Chanter will be starting with 16-18 STR. With level ups (+5), tome (assume +2), and item (+6), that's a final score of 29-31. For the sake of argument, let's go with 30-31 which is +10 to hit / +10 damage. On a 34 Dex, 22 Str finessed build, that would instead be +12 to hit, +6 damage. So yeah, you've got the advantage on the mainhand hit, but offhand you'd only have +2 damage per hit over me. Overall I don't see it as being incredibly gimped dps on my build compared to yours.
D. Axe has the higher base damage, especially if greensteel, but rapiers will have a higher crit rate, so that more or less balances, depending on what we're fighting (i.e. 0 Fort mobs vs. 100% fort mobs).
But strength aside, every other modifier will be fully added to each hit, so even a 10 STR warchanter will still be doing +20ish damage per hit which isn't too bad.
My only real sacrifice that makes it tough is the Finesse feat, which Noctus is right to point out - it's somewhat frivolous on a build that doesn't have any spare feats. And the lack of Fort save on this build is also worrisome. But that's my tradeoff for Evasion, I guess.
Thanimal
07-23-2009, 11:14 AM
Thanimal : Thanks for crunching the numbers :) I can never be arsed to do that, to be honest.
Truthfully, I love crunching numbers. I'm an addict.
My only real sacrifice that makes it tough is the Finesse feat, which Noctus is right to point out - it's somewhat frivolous on a build that doesn't have any spare feats. And the lack of Fort save on this build is also worrisome. But that's my tradeoff for Evasion, I guess.
It's that last part I disagree with. Whether you are guessing that WC3 will be meh or awesome, you can still get Evasion and good DPS by going STR-based Dwarf Bard N/Rogue 2. I don't think you have to trade away Fort save and better DPS to get Evasion and passable AC. Sure, without the Fighter levels of Victorrea, your feats will be a little interesting -- no Toughness and probably no Extend. And you'll lose a tiny bit of incremental DPS. But you will get WC3 someday, and I think you'll have an overall more powerful build than DEX-based Drow.
Aerendil
07-23-2009, 11:29 AM
Hmmm. Well, if I go Drow, my Fort save will suck. There's no two ways about it. Low base Fort save from Bard, nothing added from Rogue2, and a low Con stat from Drow. Nothing I can really do about it. The only boost comes from going Fighter2, which defeats my whole Rogue/Evasion idea. So that's always going to be low and it just means I'll have to look for +hp gear or +fort/protection gear.
Now, a STR based Drow TWF Bard 18/ Rogue 2 build would be a bit different. Let's say I move around the starting stats to be 16 STR and 16 DEX (instead of 14/18). Level ups into STR. Assuming +2 tomes in each, 6 stat items, racials still going towards DEX, and +1 DEX from Rogue2, I'd end up with 27 STR, 26 DEX (as opposed to 22 STR, 34 DEX previously).. So +8 to hit/damage, and +8 reflex save bonus. So my reflex save would drop by 4 points - not sure if that'd still work. My BAB would also drop by 4 points, but my damage would increase by 2. But perhaps more importantly I free up a feat for Extend or Toughness. Not sure if that's worth it :/
Hmmm...
Thanimal
07-23-2009, 11:39 AM
Hmmm. Well, if I go Drow, my Fort save will suck. There's no two ways about it. Low base Fort save from Bard, nothing added from Rogue2, and a low Con stat from Drow. Nothing I can really do about it. The only boost comes from going Fighter2, which defeats my whole Rogue/Evasion idea. So that's always going to be low and it just means I'll have to look for +hp gear or +fort/protection gear.
Now, a STR based Drow TWF Bard 18/ Rogue 2 build would be a bit different. Let's say I move around the starting stats to be 16 STR and 16 DEX (instead of 14/18). Level ups into STR. Assuming +2 tomes in each, 6 stat items, racials still going towards DEX, and +1 DEX from Rogue2, I'd end up with 27 STR, 26 DEX (as opposed to 22 STR, 34 DEX previously).. So +8 to hit/damage, and +8 reflex save bonus. So my reflex save would drop by 4 points - not sure if that'd still work. My BAB would also drop by 4 points, but my damage would increase by 2. But perhaps more importantly I free up a feat for Extend or Toughness. Not sure if that's worth it :/
Hmmm...
Ok, I'm officially into beating a dead horse territory here, so I promise I'll stop after this one: Why are you trying to make this a Drow instead of a Dwarf? As a Dwarf your Fort save will be half-decent, your Reflex save will be excellent (against spells anyhow), and you'll have more hit points. (AC potential is also better if you even care about AC, due to max-DEX-bonus enhancements.) Even if you don't have 32-point builds unlocked, I think Dwarf is significantly better here. And if you do, then I don't think it's close.
78mackson
07-23-2009, 11:48 AM
Was mulling this over lastnight while playing my Spellsinger, and was curious if anyone's tried it. I'm at work now, so I can't crunch the stats/numbers in the chargen tool, but here are my thoughts on this. Feel free to nitpick :)
we sure will.. I assume you got a 32pointer build aswell.
- Bards are proficient in both rapier and shortsword, which requires neither a melee splash to open up the weaponry, nor does it require OTWF to offset any penalties. If I end up with dual rapiers at endgame, the racial bonuses + weapon focus (WC prereq) should easily offset a lack of OTWF.
I´m very un-impressed by rapiers so far.. just as I suspected I would be(re-rolled on US-servers 12 days ago)
in this case I think going halfer and picks til u get 2 min2 khopeshes.. wouldnt only save you like 12 ap(which you put into the halfer SA-enhancement) but also would be alot more fun :P
- Additionally, I tend to play my Bards as dps contributers, not as the main dps itself. I'll never match a frenzied Barbarian, or a Tempest III Ranger, or a 20 Kensai with dual khopeshes. It's just not going to happen. And I'm never the first one into a room, unless I'm aiming to fascinate them for the team. So why compete with the real dpsers? Let them take the hits, and I'll simply help out. As a result, rapier/shortsword or rapier/rapier is good enough for me, and this also frees up a few feats as I won't require OTWF nor would I require Exotic:Khopesh. I'm thinking TWF/ITWF/GTWF, WF:Piercing, PA, Finesse, and one free (Toughness, Extend, or I:Crit:Piercing). It's still tight, but it always is with Warchanters, isn't it? :)
* Finesse is a waste feat.. just go str, saves you a feat and you do more dmg, not even a trade off.
* a halfer 32 point can ditch un-needed Int. with 7 skill points you can max UMD, concentration, OL, Search, DD, haggle, perform.
* a halfer 14/2 would kick some serious butt. Definatly higher DPS then a pure human paladin who isnt facing evil outsiders with your songs... and equal to a 14/2 barb without your songs..(ofc he will do more dmg with your songs).. a kensai lvl20.. nah thats just, no way unless he is THF :P .. Read Nicks "shakespeare".. to play a chanter is pretty much just as playing a WF-barb... but you dont have to wait for buffage or drink haste pots.. the only minus as I can it is bad selfhealing. U must scroll it.
* halfer would have "better" stats.. 15 con, so you wont die once you roll a failed save.. also gives you time to do the dodgy "jump-jump-cast scroll" routine..
- Bards are a 3/4 BAB class, so it's important to boost that BAB as high as possible. As a TWFer has a lot stat points tied up between STR and DEX, they're never going to have an end-game STR of titanic proportions. It's just not going to happen. So why not go a Finesse build and just dump it all into DEX?
possible strenght, lets calculate: 16 +5lvl +4tome +6item +2rage(really easy to keep up as a bard), +1 DA = 34 without madstone, (which a bard like this should use at atleast shroud) ain´t that bad.. besides you will probably not have the aggro in a proper group, esp not in mod 9.. where t-rogues, kensais will pre-vail along with paladins n barbs who does some nasty dmg vs raidobjects...
- Bard AC is generally laughable, so why not go the Robes route and simply pump up DEX and ignore armour altogether? If you're the type to carry around plenty of robes, you could also have a nice assortment that takes 0 time to swap out for various encounters. Robe of Deathward for when you need it, for example.
here is were al my previous arguments will fail, You will, if you really go for it, reach an oki and workable AC(if your an AC-junkie that is).. but not until you get to lvl15... sadly. Ac is a bit over-rated anyway unless you really can get there.. and not having it isnt the end of the world imho...
- 2 Rogue levels will grant Evasion, haste boost, sneak attack (1d6 + 3 from 1 enhancement point), and + 1 DEX. Plus extra skill points I can use to either boost my Bardic skills, or to pick up a few extra skills (i.e. Spot, Open Lock. It's always nice to be able to open locks, but it's even better to be able to see my enemies before they hit me :p). I could also go Halfling for some further sneak attack damage, but it's quite enhancement intensive, and I want to ensure I max out my IC songs and get some other toys as well.
see one of my first posts about AP´s n skills...
- the #1 killer when I'm on my Bard is generally AoE spells. I don't care if I have 400 hps. If I'm constantly getting fireballed, or ray'ed, or whatever, and the Cleric is struggling to keep me up (or I'm burning my own spell points keeping myself up), it's not efficient at all. Evasion would cure a lot of the squishiness of a Bard, and could even make up for a lack of Toughness feats. And with Bard 18 (+11 reflex) + Rogue 2 (+3 reflex) + 34ish DEX (see below - that's +12 mod) + various Bardic songs/spells, I should be sitting at over a 30 reflex save, which is hopefully enough for most quests (barring the occasional Elite quest).
Well.. Yes, if the cleric prefers to cast heals on you then resistance then thats really his problem.. I laugh at myself when I think back of ol ranger who had like 129 sp, and didnt give a **** to resist or bark the tank or bard.. its called progression to window like that and thinking whatta noob I was(well, always will be :D)...
You can also use resistance wands for like 11min and scroll fireshield.. the only real problem that a bard without evasion faces is BB´s .. we all got the same problem with seering lights and other non-save.. but I guess you will be just fine..
- AC might not turn out to be so bad. Off the top of my head, if I went 18 DEX to start + 5 (lvl ups) + 6 (item) + 1 (Rogue level) + 2 (racial) + 2 (tome), I'd end up with a final dex of 34. If I ever got my hands on a +4 tome, that's 36. But even with a 34, that's +12 to AC. So with raid gear, you could easily be looking at a nice mid-50s AC (assuming Icy, Chattering, +4 insight, etc, etc.). It's nothing tank-worthy, but it's also nothing to sneeze at either. Your stoneskins will last longer and be 20 times more effective if your enemies don't auto-hit you, or if you're Evading spells a majority of the time.
think you could reach a raid ac of 60-65 or so if you still plan to go Dex build.
- damage overall shouldn't be *too* bad, really. A starting STR of 14 + 6 (item) + 2 (rage) is still very low (I'll feel like a Monk), but it's the bonuses that really do your damage for you with this setup. +2 (racial) + whatever from Inspire Courage (I think it maxes at +8 right now with Tier I and full enhancements?) + 6 (str) + 5 (power attack, which will be on 24/7 as your BAB will be quite large) + 4-7 (sneak attack damage) + whatever weapon enchantment you have (+5?). It adds up. But as I said before, I'm not trying to compete with the kensais or tempests - I just want to be able to contribute, which I think this kind of build could do. 25+ damage per swing isn't too bad :)
a drows/bard/rogue selfbuff max is 1d8 +34(mod 6)and 1d6+11 SA
halfer would be, 1d10+31 and 1d6+19 SA dmg really not that bad..... crits for 100-140 and that SA should be going off almost every swing... and then your not counting acid, holy, slicing dmg.. it´ll make you re-consider not doing enough dmg, once you tried it :D...
Any thoughts on this? Has anyone tried out this build or something similar?
what you didnt mention was a big plus of going drow is that the best stat-dmger comes in rapiers, there are ofc counters such as keen puncturers/smiters/banishers and mod 9 to this plus... but we arent there yet..
and to answer your question:
I´m sure they have.. but drows are not that cool, just good looking.. what I posted here is very end-gamish btw can take you from everything from 14 days(I got picture to prove it) til 4 months...
Kriogen
07-23-2009, 12:01 PM
I have Bard13/Rogue2/Fighter1, Drow, Warchanter on Euro server.
Starting stats:
Strength 14 ... levelup points here
Dexterity 16 ... use tomes for TWF
Constitution 12
Intelligence 16 .... use +2 Tome asap. For skill points.
Wisdom 8
Charisma 14
TWF mode, Rapier mainhand, Shortsword offhand, full drow enhancements for melee, power attack allmost allways on. It's rare that I miss.
Full enhancements for songs, Warchanter.
Fascinate for crowd control, mana for buffs, cure. Zero DC based spells.
Sub 40 AC so at one point I just ignored that and use Displace + Stoneskin.
Saves are fine, mid 20 to 30, all. HP ~300.
Skills: traps/lock, Perform, UMD. Can do Heal/Reconstruct on less then 1.
Not a Tank, but solid Cannon. Buff, poke, sometimes Fascinate, maybe a cure(mass) or two.
Not uber, but also not gimp. Fun, versatile, adaptable. Good for solo and groups.
Plan is Bard16/Rogue2/Fighter2.
Aerendil
07-23-2009, 12:10 PM
Thanks for the responses guys. Just noticed after reading Mack's thread, I hadn't calculated the STR-route correctly. I'd have a 29ish STR, not 27, so +9 to hit/damage, not +8. Could get 30+ with a +3 or 4 tome as well. And then there's rage, and items, and such.
The stat damagers are definitely a plus. I'd also imagine "backstabbing" weaponry would help out (that's where you got your 1d6+11-19 numbers for Drow/Halfling, right?).
Halfling is definitely a consideration, I'll admit. But as this build would use DEX and INT, with some CHA as well, Drow seemed to fit better. But, for the record, I haven't unlocked 32 pointers yet. Just switched servers, and been prone to alt-itus and lack of game time. So currently I'm stuck with Drow as my best racial option. Meh :/
If I went STR, though, Halfling or Dwarf could be a definite possibility.
I'd also imagine if I went Halfer, maxed out guile/cunning, and rolled with a Rogue at higher levels and we both had radII rapiers, the SA damage could be quite disgusting :)
Never really toyed around with the Blindness spell either, but that could be an interesting combo as well for a Halfler Spellsinger :p
Thanimal
07-23-2009, 12:59 PM
But, for the record, I haven't unlocked 32 pointers yet. Just switched servers, and been prone to alt-itus and lack of game time. So currently I'm stuck with Drow as my best racial option. Meh :/
Do not assume that. I may be the single biggest Drow-skeptics on earth, but it comes from number-crunching: I always examine every race for builds I'm interested in and when you consider all the key *result* statistics, Drow almost never beats a 28-pointer from some other race. (Ironically, the one exception to that is my "main" -- but he would have been far better as a 28-point Halfling except that he uses Intimidate extensively and so couldn't eat the 4-point penalty. Also I have to admit that pure CC Sorcs and Wizard should be Drow, but I would never play such a character -- just not my style.)
Once you go STR (which I think is nearly mandatory as shown in this thread), I believe both 28-point Dwarf and 28-point Halfling will be net better characters.
78mackson
07-23-2009, 01:14 PM
Thanks for the responses guys. Just noticed after reading Mack's thread, I hadn't calculated the STR-route correctly. I'd have a 29ish STR, not 27, so +9 to hit/damage, not +8. Could get 30+ with a +3 or 4 tome as well. And then there's rage, and items, and such.
I thought you were a bit off.. actually thought you missed out PA
The stat damagers are definitely a plus. I'd also imagine "backstabbing" weaponry would help out (that's where you got your 1d6+11-19 numbers for Drow/Halfling, right?).
Ye, counting tharnes goggles + guile + 1d6+3enhance
Halfling is definitely a consideration, I'll admit. But as this build would use DEX and INT, with some CHA as well, Drow seemed to fit better. But, for the record, I haven't unlocked 32 pointers yet. Just switched servers, and been prone to alt-itus and lack of game time. So currently I'm stuck with Drow as my best racial option. Meh :/
If I went STR, though, Halfling or Dwarf could be a definite possibility.
Roll a drow then.. thats what I did. Its oki but I will prolly save up my precious scales for another bard then the drowish one..I just made a hp/wis item.. helps my low hp318 while raged(no evasion)..
slight warning: With 12 in con you will end up with like 300 hp when raged and GSitem.. a failed save(always fail on a 1) and some lag.. it could get dangerous.. nothing I would suggest for elite shroud.. but still a solid n fun build.
I'd also imagine if I went Halfer, maxed out guile/cunning, and rolled with a Rogue at higher levels and we both had radII rapiers, the SA damage could be quite disgusting :)
Never really toyed around with the Blindness spell either, but that could be an interesting combo as well for a Halfler Spellsinger :p
no need for you to get rad rapiers.. you wont be as reliant on SA as a normal rogue is.. and if he already got Rads.. then it wil be a breeze anyway :D... min2 for the free feat and that it works where it counts: raid bosses, losing 15/hit is major deal! Min 2 is king.. Rad2 is the prince(god?) of thrash mob for rogues..
Aerendil
07-23-2009, 03:15 PM
So now the question is, if I went STR-route with level ups into STR, would my Evasion hold up at end-game?
Dex = 16 (base) +2 (elf) +1 (rogue) +6 (item) = 25. Let's assume +3 tome to round it out , although it's not likely = 28, which is +9 to AC/reflex.
So a total reflex save of 11 (Bard18) + 3 (Rog2) + 9 (28 dex) +5 (protection item) = 25.
Let's assume Good Hope is permanently on (+2) = 27 save. Gtr Heroism would boost this further, but not guaranteed to be always on myself.
78mackson
07-23-2009, 03:29 PM
So now the question is, if I went STR-route with level ups into STR, would my Evasion hold up at end-game?
Dex = 16 (base) +2 (elf) +1 (rogue) +6 (item) = 25. Let's assume +3 tome to round it out , although it's not likely = 28, which is +9 to AC/reflex.
So a total reflex save of 11 (Bard18) + 3 (Rog2) + 9 (28 dex) +5 (protection item) = 25.
Let's assume Good Hope is permanently on (+2) = 27 save. Gtr Heroism would boost this further, but not guaranteed to be always on myself.
Your reflex saves will be good enough for the stuff that really matters(mobs-nukes n such).. but dont get surprised if you get fried by a trap every now and then...high DC on some traps like elite coal and monastery comes to mind..
maddmatt70
07-23-2009, 03:45 PM
So now the question is, if I went STR-route with level ups into STR, would my Evasion hold up at end-game?
Dex = 16 (base) +2 (elf) +1 (rogue) +6 (item) = 25. Let's assume +3 tome to round it out , although it's not likely = 28, which is +9 to AC/reflex.
So a total reflex save of 11 (Bard18) + 3 (Rog2) + 9 (28 dex) +5 (protection item) = 25.
Let's assume Good Hope is permanently on (+2) = 27 save. Gtr Heroism would boost this further, but not guaranteed to be always on myself.
Next mod you will have the equivalent of gh at all times so I would include that in your calcs.
Aerendil
07-23-2009, 03:48 PM
Next mod you will have the equivalent of gh at all times so I would include that in your calcs.
Matt - without forcing me to sift through the beta forums for the info, could you tell us what change that is?
78mackson
07-23-2009, 04:04 PM
Do not assume that. I may be the single biggest Drow-skeptics on earth, but it comes from number-crunching: I always examine every race for builds I'm interested in and when you consider all the key *result* statistics, Drow almost never beats a 28-pointer from some other race. (Ironically, the one exception to that is my "main" -- but he would have been far better as a 28-point Halfling except that he uses Intimidate extensively and so couldn't eat the 4-point penalty. Also I have to admit that pure CC Sorcs and Wizard should be Drow, but I would never play such a character -- just not my style.)
Once you go STR (which I think is nearly mandatory as shown in this thread), I believe both 28-point Dwarf and 28-point Halfling will be net better characters.
You are actually right about this..(28pt halfer: 16,16,13*,8,8**,9*) and haha.. I fully understand that your skeptic towards drow.. I had a 36 cha drow.. I dont like to play caster much(but n1 to have for diversity and certain Q´s) but I can tell you one thing.. I wish he was WF instead.
* I like un-even stats in cha and con.. +1tomes that are "rather cheap" or raid tomes then u can sell your +2tomes, since they wont be any good to you, to finance better things like transmuters n stuff...
** wont be able to max out all desired abilities.. but this CAN be fixed if you neglect Spot and perhaps Jump or drop some in haggle. Most rogueing lies in the gear anyway.. from lvl1 til16.. and at 16 u wont prolly be rogueing at all...
maddmatt70
07-23-2009, 04:12 PM
Matt - without forcing me to sift through the beta forums for the info, could you tell us what change that is?
Everybody on Sharavath gets an effect which grants a +4 to saves which does not stack with gh. This has some benefits as for instance bards will all likely drop gh (if they have it currently) sometime next mod and everybody gets those saves, but also the negative of the monsters getting +4 to saves vs. our spells.
78mackson
07-23-2009, 04:28 PM
... but also the negative of the monsters getting +4 to saves vs. our spells.
Lol-- sounds like the CC-hater in Turbines-corridor is having a field day once again .. :D
Noctus
07-24-2009, 12:41 PM
@OP.
My advice was given under the assumption that you wanted to be able to deal with traps while keeping 18 levels of bard to be more "Mod 10 or Mod 11" proof when Warchanter Tier 3 may come out. And we dont know if even if Warchanter tier 3 PrE would already be here if it would be better than a 2 Fighter splash. As the 2 Fighter splash has great synergies with the melee-focused Warchanter.
If you loosen the restriction on 18 bard levels you can very well go
* 16 bard / 2 Fighter / 2 Rogue for more combat prowess now.
* Or 14 Bard (for nearly full songpower) / 2 Fighter / 4 Rogue, to make it easier skillwise to keep trapskills and for more extra punch from more sneak attack damage.
* Or 15 bard (to keep the AC song) / 2 Fighter / 3 Rogue.
If you skip trapskills completly i´d recommend switching from Drow to PB28 dwarf. The advantages of the drow are not as good for a pure combat-oriented Warchanter as being Dwarf, even "only" PB28.
Aerendil
07-24-2009, 01:15 PM
@OP.
If you loosen the restriction on 18 bard levels you can very well go
* 16 bard / 2 Fighter / 2 Rogue for more combat prowess now.
* Or 14 Bard (for nearly full songpower) / 2 Fighter / 4 Rogue, to make it easier skillwise to keep trapskills and for more extra punch from more sneak attack damage.
* Or 15 bard (to keep the AC song) / 2 Fighter / 3 Rogue.
If you skip trapskills completly i´d recommend switching from Drow to PB28 dwarf. The advantages of the drow are not as good for a pure combat-oriented Warchanter as being Dwarf, even "only" PB28.
Noc - splashing 2 rogue was *mainly* for Evasion to improve survivability, but also for Reflex save boosts, +1 DEX, and d6+3 sneak attack damage. If I can swing trap skills, I will, but it's a *lot* of skill points required (Spot, Search, DD, OL all cross-class) which means I either need to give up a fair whack of Bard skills to compensate, or I start with a very high INT (and even then, I may have to make sacrifices). Just not sure if that's worth it at this point.
If I had this char in a static group with a Ranger, for example, who could spot and search the traps for me, that'd be a different situation altogether.
I'm also going based off a few assumptions:
- that tier II and III PrEs will exist. This is more of a fact than an assumption, of course - but what II and III will offer is pure speculation. I'm guessing I would be sad missing out on tier III, hence I wanted to minimalize the splashes to 2 levels. If I was ok with less, then the 16/2/2 or even 14/2/4 isn't a bad split at all.
- we haven't any idea of enhancements from 15-20, currently, other than the capstone. I can only presume that we'll see another level of Inspire Courage enhancements somewhere in there since the current progression suggests that (i.e. we have inspired attack I at 3, II at 8, III at 13 - so IV at 18?; and inspired damage I at 2, II at 7, III at 12 - so IV at 17?). So that's another +1/+1 lost if you multiclass too deeply on top of whatever you'd miss out on with Warchanter III. Of course, with the cost of Attack III, I may very well pass on IV anyways. But we'll see.
As I'd already lose +1/+1 from not going pure, this could very well add up :/
And yes, I'm considering Dwarf, Halfling, or Human as well, even with 28 pointers. I just need to crunch the numbers to ensure my reflex save isn't horribly gimped.
Kriogen
07-24-2009, 02:55 PM
....I'm also going based off a few assumptions:
- that tier II and III PrEs will exist. This is more of a fact than an assumption, of course - but what II and III will offer is pure speculation. I'm guessing I would be sad missing out on tier III, hence I wanted to minimalize the splashes to 2 levels. If I was ok with less, then the 16/2/2 or even 14/2/4 isn't a bad split at all.
- we haven't any idea of enhancements from 15-20, currently, other than the capstone. I can only presume that we'll see another level of Inspire Courage enhancements somewhere in there since the current progression suggests that (i.e. we have inspired attack I at 3, II at 8, III at 13 - so IV at 18?; and inspired damage I at 2, II at 7, III at 12 - so IV at 17?). So that's another +1/+1 lost if you multiclass too deeply on top of whatever you'd miss out on with Warchanter III. Of course, with the cost of Attack III, I may very well pass on IV anyways. But we'll see..
If you want tier 3 PrE, then i think Rogue2/Bard18 is best. Not traps, just Open Lock, and put some leftover points into Spot and Stealth. Nice synergy with Invisibility that you can cast. You also dont have to start with high Int.
Traps are very expensive, mine char started with Int 16 + 2 tome, Drow. I sure miss those 4-6 stat points. And on top of that lots of rogues, ranger/rogues and even wizard/rogues ingame, so its very rare that I use search/dd :/
Noctus
07-24-2009, 08:29 PM
Noc - splashing 2 rogue was *mainly* for Evasion to improve survivability, but also for Reflex save boosts, +1 DEX, and d6+3 sneak attack damage. If I can swing trap skills, I will, but it's a *lot* of skill points required (Spot, Search, DD, OL all cross-class) which means I either need to give up a fair whack of Bard skills to compensate, or I start with a very high INT (and even then, I may have to make sacrifices). Just not sure if that's worth it at this point.
Mea culpa. I misunderstood your intentions slightly.
You can include full trap skills on a bard, but it will cost you. 6 build points into INT at creation, and some tradeoff decision when raising skills when leveling. Quiet possible, but with a cost.
I´d suggest you´d try out 2 or 3 bard builds in Ron´s Character Planer and see if you evaluate the costs you have to make. If you fiond them too high just skip them.
78mackson
07-25-2009, 12:51 AM
what I dont understand is...
as a drow with zero points into Int: you can almost maxout your ranks into trap skills anyway. 6 points (7 if you can grab a +2tome). (OL, search, DD, perform, UMD) .. start with rogue and with rogue.. you might end up with 2 ranks short in OL, but hey..
Hide and move silently isnt really needed.. I mean, what do you do 99.99% of the game, besides waiting, is it swinging at a monster, dodging fireballs or are you sneaking(which in many cases you can do anyway with invisibility and 0 ranks of move silently afaik)?
How do the traps looks like in mod9-10? Certain traps are just designed with a very high reflex DC which may require even a Dex-build to roll twice(impr. evasion).. you may not be able to full rogue all of em anyway?
edit: spot isnt needed at all in this game so far...
winsom
07-25-2009, 01:29 AM
I think the bard gets everything truly useful to DDO by level 13 (extended Gr. Hero). There are additional perks like AC song at 15th and some more spells of debatable-use at 16th, and more spell points and spell-penetration, of course. These last can be a big deal, depending on what your party wants from you, but I've done existing raids as a bard 12th quite successfully. After 16th there is nothing nice for a bard (until 18th enhancements anyway...) Might as well multi-class two levels (or more) unless you want to try to be an expert spell-controller with all 20th levels and capstone enhancement. Inspire Courage does improve by +1 at 14th and again at 20th.
Ive been playing a drow bard/rogue ever since drow was introduced.
Rapiers, short swords, sneak attacking and healing is a lot of fun. Bard/rogue + Greater TWF + decent healing or spell-casting is probably not going to work too well as a War-chanter though. Not enough feats available. Two fighter levels would give you the feats but not the evasion, and that is a huge loss in survivability as you've discovered.
I have done pretty much what you have outlined, except I am still spell-singer rather than war-chanter. I do not like the war-chanter pre-req feats, although the trade-off would seem OK: the enhanced songs and DR 5 chant.
As a spell-singer bard 12, I have 975 spell points. I would not want much less than that due to the comprehensive Displacement buffing and spot-healing I do. I suspect I will need lots of SPs once I get Mass Cure Moderate and I join in with the clerics to spam that in raid, between swings of my two weapons, of course !
I agree with you about AC. I have a Wand of Shield but that is mostly for anti-force missile protection. I do not want to have to bring Barkskin potions. I do not have free slots to wear a Dodge AC item and I do not have the feats for Combat Expertise. My AC will always be high 20s, low 30s, so I do not bother with enhancing it. (DEX 28)
I started with low STR and CON in order to get fairly high INT, DEX and CHA, mostly thinking that INT was needed high for end-game traps and detection. Ends up that the mid-game trap-smithing is a lot harder than the level 14+ content once I got all the uber items that add to skills and exceptional INT, and GH buff, and whatever. If I could re-do my attributes I'd put more into CON & STR rather than a 17 INT.
Ended up with 30 CHA (+2 tome) or 33 with Shroud item. This is plenty for a fighting bard and normal raid mobs still fall prey to my Dancing Ball spell. Spell Resistance checks can be very hit & miss though because of multi-classing and not taking SR Penetration feats. I carry a shattermantle weapon if I really care about it (which I often do not). Like you it seems, I believe a bard can be better built to deal-out melee damage while offering party support through song, buffs and healing. Wizards and Sorcerors are better as spell-based "controllers" of the battlefield, so I let them take that responsibility, aided by my protection and +1 DC spellsong. The 20th bard capstone enhancement may do a lot to equalize bards with sorcerors (but never with wizards) as far as control power, but my build isn't set-up to take advantage of that.
I mix in a fair amount of maximized cure wounds healing along with greater two weapon fighting. I often get into a fighting mindset and do a lot less healing than I could be, but I figure that is what Displacement is for. I'm healing half of the damage right off the bat :-) Ironskin war-chanter DR 5 would be nice here too = a bit less healing required.
I fill up my inventory with several clickies, and scroll types and lots of wands. I enjoy being able to give out almost-every useful buff (i.e. Stoneskin, Resists), and being able to reverse any condition, including negative levels, through utilizing the UMD skill. I also carry around about 8 weapon sets for Two Weapon Fighting, a stack of Cure Serious Wounds potion,s and a couple swap-to-from items for Deathward or Perform skill, and so on. I also have a Paralyzing Bow of Precise Shot that I thought sounded really handy, but since I'm mostly running with 10+ other people, singular options like that do not seem useful. Add in the rogue's tools, search, spot and disable items and you can see that I do not have much looting room left. A little more than 1 panel. I often want to sell off loot after a raid/quest. Teleport scrolls help (another inventory slot...)
It's probably easiest if you PM me questions about my experiences and build. I do not feel like posting it because I think DDO has room for lots of variations on concepts without there needing to be a "guide" to follow. Definitely a fun character to play. I've had people complement me on being an great character that does a lot of helpful things or a great healer, or very survivable for a 250 HP character. I figure that is from players with less meta-gaming and arcade-action experience at DDO, because I'm not all that expert at combat or quest-knowledge compared to other people.
I used to get a lot of props for being able to "replace rogues" in a mid-level group, but dedicated rogues have gotten a lot better as a class over the past couple years and now I regularly team-up with at least one. I call this character a bard and don't step on their crafty-toes even though my skill modifiers are just as useful, which isn't saying much. Trap DCs are too easy at high level. On the other hand, trap damage is very painful on failed Reflex without Improved Evasion. (i.e. DC 33+ saves in Monastery on normal)
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