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cforce
07-15-2009, 01:16 PM
WAWG = "Wins Already-Won Games"

This is an acronym a friend of mine and I came up with 'back in the day', originally to talk about cards in Magic: the Gathering. We used it to classify a certain type of card when building decks: a card that allowed you to win games in which you already had the advantage in a more spectacular manner, but was weaker when you were not in a position of advantage. While its original use was in this context, we've found that it's an incredibly useful distinction in almost any gaming context where build, strategy, and tactics are elements of gameplay.

WAWGs can be deceptively attractive: flashy 'slam-dunk' style gaming moments are the ones that leave a memorable impression on you, after all! But, while making your victories more *memorable*, they might not actually be giving you *more victories*! WAWGs, in short, are things you should steer clear of.

WAWGs also have a converse, the Anti-WAWG. An Anti-WAWG is something that is useless when you have the advantage, but becomes more powerful when you are coming from behind. Anti-WAWGs can be deceptively un-attractive, because 90% of the time, they may be useless! But, the 10% of the time that they shine end up being the places where you really need help. Anti-WAWGs are good.

Now, a little context is important, here. We only really care about something's WAWG-ness or Anti-WAWG-ness when a decision or tradeoff must be made. For example: Wounding of Puncturing weapons (currently) enable you clear out trash mobs quickly, but are useless against red-names. However, they aren't truly a WAWG because using them is not an exclusive decision; you can bring them for the trash mobs, and a different weapon for the red-names. If you were forced to only pick a single weapon to bring into a quest, *then* bring WoP would become a bad idea.

What elements of DDO *should* be examined for WAWG/Anti-WAWG-ness? Any build decisions certainly fall into this category, as do spell selections (what to slot) and spell castings (what to use SP on).

Here are some of the obvious, and not-so-obvious, WAWGs in DDO:

- Power Word <anything>: For the most part, if you can get the mob down to the right hp threshold, he's about to be dead, anyway. Fortunately, most people figured this one out quickly!
- Feats/Enhancements for to-hit bonuses. In the game right now, most characters that care to melee will be hitting on a 2 by the end-game; piling on additional to-hit bonuses is overkill.
- PK/FoD on a mob that's at 25% health. Just let the melees kill it!
- A more controversial one: GH spamming. As stated above, many melee builds just don't need the help with the to-hit side. Is giving everyone +4 on saves, often in an environment where they're going to make 1 or 2 saving throw rolls throughout a quest, and where a lot of characters *already* have pretty solid saving throws, really worth 6x or 12x 45 SP? This depends on the quest context, but it's often using spell points for improving saving throws where they're not helping much, that might be better used damage-spamming the boss.

On the other side, many anti-WAWGs have really flown under the radar. In many quests, what is the hardest battle? The boss. Why, oh why, then, do so few people plan for things which are effective against bosses, in favor of things which are great for cleaning out trash mobs?
- Ray of Enfeeblement/Exhaustion, Waves of Exhaustion, Waves of Fatigue: often useless against trash mobs, who are dead before the debuff would make a difference. Grrrrrrrreat on bosses, but not used nearly enough.
- My new personal favorite: Sleet Storm. Overlooked because it's a huge PitA most of the time, but nevertheless a great red-name debuff. It doesn't blind party members, and even if you're not running FoM, it's often good to cast after the boss has been boxed in. But since it's such a poor choice for the trash mobs, it gets no publicity!

These are just a few examples of WAWGs and Anti-WAWGs in DDO. What other ones can people think of?

SableShadow
07-15-2009, 01:20 PM
Excellent post: concise, articulate, and thought provoking. tyvm! :)

Crippling and Tendonslice are Anti-WAWGs. In groups with overwhelming firepower and healing to burn, the extra mitigation and dps from controlling mob movement is negligible. In groups w/o overwhelming firepower and healing, you can see the impact.

Borror0
07-15-2009, 01:27 PM
Well written post.

Intimidate is an anti-WAWG. Near useless in strong groups but life saving when things go bad.

Ustice
07-15-2009, 01:35 PM
Anti-WAWG: Poison. For those tougher enemies that have a ton of hit points, this can do 25 points of Con damage if Empowered and Maximized.

Thanimal
07-15-2009, 01:38 PM
WAWG = "Wins Already-Won Games"

This is an acronym a friend of mine and I came up with 'back in the day', originally to talk about cards in Magic: the Gathering.

Wow, that friend of yours seems VERY smart and probably good looking! ;)

More seriously, I whole-heartedly applaud introducing this term into wider usage. I think you and I have found it incredibly useful, and I've almost put it into a post a few times before realizing nobody would know what I was talking about! Now we can all use it and just link here when needed.

Guildmaster_Kadish
07-15-2009, 01:44 PM
Excellent post.

I too am constantly surprised how few casters (wizards especially) pack debuffs (particularly for VoD).

Borror0
07-15-2009, 01:45 PM
More seriously, I whole-heartedly applaud introducing this term into wider usage. I think you and I have found it incredibly useful, and I've almost put it into a post a few times before realizing nobody would know what I was talking about! Now we can all use it and just link here when needed.
I am mostly surprised that it never became more used in the Magic community. It explains so well what Timmy is about.

Winning already won games.

Thanimal
07-15-2009, 01:52 PM
Firstly, I don't think you mentioned wawg is pronounced so as to rhyme with frog. This is key! :)


<wawg list>
- Feats/Enhancements for to-hit bonuses. In the game right now, most characters that care to melee will be hitting on a 2 by the end-game; piling on additional to-hit bonuses is overkill.


I think I'm gonna disagree with this one. If it's a bad build decision (which I agree it usually is), it's because of outright uselessness, not wawginess.

I'd say it's closer to anti-wawg: nearly useless most of the time, but may be very beneficial against a boss if you *don't* have to turn off your WF-enhanced Power Attack.

In fact, this reminds me that Power Attack itself can be a wawg. This ability dispatches scrubs significantly faster, but its relative benefit may go down against the folks with the highest AC, who often are bosses. But I have to qualify my claim: PA is FAR more likely to be a wawg in low and mid-level content than in (current) high level content. So my point would mostly be that delaying PA to a later level is often a good build decision if you can get something that is less wawgy at low levels. If you reach a point where -8 to-hit simply never matters, then PA is just plain always good. (Neither wawg nor anti-wawg.)

Thanimal
07-15-2009, 01:54 PM
I am mostly surprised that it never became more used in the Magic community. It explains so well what Timmy is about.

Winning already won games.

Simple explanation: We came up with the term after we left the "Magic Community." We were still goofing around on our own, but had exited the tournament scene some years earlier.

15 minutes of fame check: Do you remember Sabre Bargain? :)

Borror0
07-15-2009, 01:56 PM
Exalted Smite IV. The embodiment of WAWG in DDO.

Borror0
07-15-2009, 01:58 PM
Simple explanation: We came up with the term after we left the "Magic Community."
I meant that I am surprised that no one came up with an expression to describe the phenomenon.

Thanimal
07-15-2009, 02:00 PM
I meant that I am surprised that no one came up with an expression to describe the phenomenon.

Hey, who you callin' "no one"!!!

:)

Borror0
07-15-2009, 02:01 PM
Hey, who you callin' "no one"!!!
You're a nobody. Everyone knows that.

Thanimal
07-15-2009, 02:02 PM
You're a nobody. Everyone knows that.

Oh yeah. Darn.

MysticRhythms
07-15-2009, 02:06 PM
Not in boss fights, but when running quests above your level on Elite - Stunning Blow and Improved Trip for those one or two places where an Orange Named spawns with a lot of other enemies and you'd be overwhelmed.

Normally you don't care because it's just trash to kill, but if you are trying to do things short-manned or without some resources (like healing) ...

Another example: Tower Shield Blocking with Intimidate against things like Jariliths

cforce
07-15-2009, 02:11 PM
You're a nobody. Everyone knows that.

I mean, look at your rep, Thanimal! Duh!

:D

Thanimal
07-15-2009, 04:31 PM
I mean, look at your rep, Thanimal! Duh!

:D

I do seem to be a bit below the threshold for this thread! At least I gained some rep during the course of it! :)

Hadrian
07-15-2009, 04:42 PM
When I played M:TG we always called it a "win more" situation. It's not quite as catchy as a WAWG, but it's the same idea. I saw it used often on the official forums on the WotC site.

I was talking about this the other day when someone mentioned making some GS picks instead of rapiers because they were better to switch to when things were stat damaged to zero con, stunned and helpless.

Borror0
07-15-2009, 04:43 PM
I do seem to be a bit below the threshold for this thread! At least I gained some rep during the course of it! :)
I never gain rep any more. No idea why. I guess people think I have plenty. :p

Depravity
08-03-2009, 07:19 AM
[I]
- Ray of Enfeeblement/Exhaustion, Waves of Exhaustion, Waves of Fatigue: often useless against trash mobs, who are dead before the debuff would make a difference. Grrrrrrrreat on bosses, but not used nearly enough.
- My new personal favorite: Sleet Storm. Overlooked because it's a huge PitA most of the time, but nevertheless a great red-name debuff. It doesn't blind party members, and even if you're not running FoM, it's often good to cast after the boss has been boxed in. But since it's such a poor choice for the trash mobs, it gets no publicity!

People often forget crushing despair and symbol of pain, both of which are on my full debuff bar.

Sleet saw useage in the early shroud runs, now I never see it (my wizard doesn't shrouyd much anymore). Did have somebody in an SoS run today suggest acro II umding sleet scrolls, since they have immunity to the slippery.


Not in boss fights, but when running quests above your level on Elite - Stunning Blow and Improved Trip for those one or two places where an Orange Named spawns with a lot of other enemies and you'd be overwhelmed.

I'm very fond of sap - 12(18? I forgot) seconds of mesmerize in return for simply hitting. Works well on dex builds, good for dealing with multiple casters when caster hunting, simply amazing when soloing.

JollySwagMan
09-16-2010, 07:23 PM
I like this term. In Magic I would just call them 'Crowd pleasers' that allow you to pace out games and make it more fun for bystanders/group games.