The reason to play rogues, period. [Archive] - Dungeons & Dragons Online Forums

Phyre

07-12-2009, 11:06 PM

seriously...

ive played paladins, fighters, barbarians.. and now rogue.

i like melee dps.. tested all classes... (my partner thar levels up with me and plays with me everyday is a TWF ranger)

so ive seen every melee in action, 32 point builds, no noobish builds.

well, all of them are pretty good in their own way...

the thing is:

which class can deliver the most DPS (except on elementals and undead, oozes), can UMD almost anything (can UMD everything important), can have ALOT of skills per level, can disable all traps, have improved evasion...

and can sneak, hide, etc.. assassinate two targets at once.. and will get FREE VORPAL EFFECT NEXT MOD?

hehe

seriously... my rogue is a level 16 now, raid geared, not fully geared, but decently.

and i can destroy mobs with my 300hp (i have 306).

im not saying the rogue is the best class.. im saying it can do everything in this game, from meleeing to casting spells, healing, sneaking, disabling, etc...

and the most important... its the funniest class to play, no doubt..

while fighters stand there only swinging, u can sneak, assassinate, search, open locks, pick chests, disable stuff, deal like 100 damage or more per swing per weapon...

well i have no doubt rogues are the funniest class to play followed by paladins, which are so cool too because u have so many skills to use.

some people prefer to play classes that u only use like 2-3 skills... and thats not even as fun as playing a class that u can do 10-15 things, and use a different tactics every fight.

(sorry for the long text, im just excited with my rogue and id like to share with you all that)

:)

herzkos

07-13-2009, 07:31 AM

I agree with almost everything you said.
I love my rogues :).

The issue (not with anything you said) is that the rogue is more of a thinking class.
Sometimes I just want to log in and go "medieval" on things. When that happens, I don't go near
one of my rogues. My rogues are great as long as they don't get aggro. When they do
they get hurt bad and real fast. I don't have all the gear to have a great AC. As long
as there are no non-combatants nearby, I can always hit diplo and shred the aggro but if
a cleric or a caster is nearby bluff is about all I'll do. Well, that and pray for a crit :)

tinyelvis

07-13-2009, 08:00 AM

Vivanto

07-13-2009, 08:01 AM

well i have no doubt rogues are the funniest class to play followed by paladins, which are so cool too because u have so many skills to use.

You left out monks for the very same reason ;)

Vivanto

07-13-2009, 08:07 AM

plus be able to hit oozes, undead, and still be effective against other things immune to back stab or while solo'n.

I so love how ignorant most ppl are out there.

Sneak attack is not the part of dps the rogue will LOOSE, it is a bonus they do not gain vs those foes, while still having the same melee capabilities as anyone else can.

Try to look from both sides wouldya. With the same backward logic your barb would loose crits and pally looses smites on oozes, yet nobody argues about that :rolleyes:

VKhaun

07-13-2009, 08:36 AM

Agreed.
Making my main a rogue tonight after some careful thought.
Going to leave behind optimization and build him for fun.

Just need to work out the skills I'm doing. I have one too many, but I love a bunch of the ones no one does. Swim especially is one of my favorites for areas with water. Being that fast is a lot of fun, and the group appreciates it sometimes when they're waiting for a lever. So whenever I ask for advice I just get told how I don't need half of what I've got. I understand them all, just an internal thing, can't pick. Like being in a giant candy store with one dollar.
'

tinyelvis

07-13-2009, 08:40 AM

I so love how ignorant most ppl are out there.

Sneak attack is not the part of dps the rogue will LOOSE, it is a bonus they do not gain vs those foes, while still having the same melee capabilities as anyone else can.

Try to look from both sides wouldya. With the same backward logic your barb would loose crits and pally looses smites on oozes, yet nobody argues about that :rolleyes:

Look, I am not an expert on rogues, but you are definitely misleading here with your forward logic. Without the backstab, a full blooded rogue will have a BAB around 20% less than a non support melee toon. You cant achieve the same potential strength level. Further, access to the best DPS weapons is limited without a feat meaning you will have to spend more to get to the same potential base weapon damage level. I may be missing something but how is this the same? Of course when you can use the niche ability of backstab, you rock. I am sure an expert can point out with more detail why your comment
......while still having the same melee capabilities as anyone else can is just wrong. There are certain specific niche situations where a rogue can perform very well, however, you will certainly not outperform a good rogue multi class build.

In a specific niche situation, my caster can put out the highest instant damage possible for a character in the game (over 2000 pts). However, this does not mean outside this niche situation he will have the same capabilities as others. Try to look from other non-biased points of view and you might see that your statement is somewhat exaggerated.

Seosamh

07-13-2009, 08:42 AM

Its good you like your character, but anyone can splash 2 rogues, carry a vorpal, and get pretty much the same benefit if they like plus be able to hit oozes, undead, and still be effective against other things immune to back stab or while solo'n. Its sad but true. Its too bad DDO character defense is based on fortress building. That is buff the AC as opposed to agility and blow dodging.

Don't get me wrong, back stab is nice too but its a niche ability.

How many people have Vorpal Wounding of Puncturing Dreamspitters with a 15-20 crit range in each hand?

I'm not sure what you mean by sneak attack being a niche ability. If you mean that only Rogues get it, well yea. If you mean that it "only" works against the "niche" of all living things that aren't immune to crits, well that's a pretty big niche. Finally, if you mean that you think it doesn't come into play very often - two words: Radiance Rapier.

Seosamh

07-13-2009, 08:47 AM

Look, I am not an expert on rogues...

...somewhat exaggerated.

So you admit you don't know what you're talking about, good.

tinyelvis

07-13-2009, 09:25 AM

How many people have Vorpal Wounding of Puncturing Dreamspitters with a 15-20 crit range in each hand?

I'm not sure what you mean by sneak attack being a niche ability. If you mean that only Rogues get it, well yea. If you mean that it "only" works against the "niche" of all living things that aren't immune to crits, well that's a pretty big niche.

Is it really? Lets look at some end game content. Sure the rogue can perform in raids like Shroud and VOD. However, to outfit himself efficiently he needs to run the skelly in sub, or SOS. You dont see many pure rogues doing either quickly and efficiently without help from others. How about reaver, those elementals openly mock rogues, and I dont recall ever seeing a pure rogue tank the reaver. Of course, when the elementals have been neutralized and the reaver sucessfully tanked, sure the rogues and all the other pikers can jump the Reaver. How many pure rogues do you recall tanking the hound and when all hell breaks loose there, you don't usually see the rogue quickly taking down the encroaching mini beholders. Of course these fall outside his niche abilities. These situations are not necessarily impossible for rogues, they just don't perform as well as others here. In the abbot he will be about as effective as a block of stone. This is the end game content, its sad but outside their not so large niche, pure rogues don't perform as well as others in much of it.

Every class whips the tar out of trash mobs, if that's your goal, you can get away with playing a melee bard.

Absolute-Omniscience

07-13-2009, 09:29 AM

How many people have Vorpal Wounding of Puncturing Dreamspitters with a 15-20 crit range in each hand?

And you seriously think that Assassin III will proc each crit? And that the set bonus will proc each crit?

I laugh.

Crarites

07-13-2009, 09:39 AM

And you seriously think that Assassin III will proc each crit? And that the set bonus will proc each crit?

I laugh.

Personally I'll be laughing too. Rogues are a hell of alot of fun when equipped right.

Aranticus

07-13-2009, 09:40 AM

Is it really? Lets look at some end game content. Sure the rogue can perform in raids like Shroud and VOD. However, to outfit himself efficiently he needs to run the skelly in sub, or SOS. You dont see many pure rogues doing either quickly and efficiently without help from others.

you are assuming all rogues are dex based. a dex rogue without raiment is just 5 ac off. you are also assuming that pure rogues are not contributing. yes against undead, dex rogues are at a disadvantage as they rely primarily on SA. str rogues do not need SA

How about reaver, those elementals openly mock rogues, and I dont recall ever seeing a pure rogue tank the reaver. Of course, when the elementals have been neutralized and the reaver sucessfully tanked, sure the rogues and all the other pikers can jump the Reaver.

widen your gaming circle. i have tanked reaver on my rogue. i have tanked reaver on my cleric. heck! i've tanked him on my drow wiz. if your rogue is an acrobat. it aint going to worry about knockdown. how many people do you really need to run reaver with? i wont worry about piking there since most people know you only need ONE person to run reaver

How many pure rogues do you recall tanking the hound and when all hell breaks loose there, you don't usually see the rogue quickly taking down the encroaching mini beholders.

acrobat? intimidate? solid fog clickie? you dun really need to tank hound. put up a sf, pull hound into sf, run around in a circle. mini beholders? weakening of enfeebling put them out of action very quickly, slap on a deathblock and you only worry is enervate. oh wait.... everyone (cept wf) are not immune to enervate

Of course these fall outside his niche abilities. These situations are not necessarily impossible for rogues, they just don't perform as well as others here. In the abbot he will be about as effective as a block of stone. This is the end game content, its sad but outside their not so large niche, pure rogues don't perform as well as others in much of it.

Every class whips the tar out of trash mobs, if that's your goal, you can get away with playing a melee bard.

play a rogue :rolleyes:

Vivanto

07-13-2009, 09:52 AM

Dude, you're really loosing it, get some experience first and then share your toughts.

Is it really? Lets look at some end game content. Sure the rogue can perform in raids like Shroud and VOD. However, to outfit himself efficiently he needs to run the skelly in sub, or SOS. You dont see many pure rogues doing either quickly and efficiently without help from others.
Who said you have to solo the skelly or sos? Show me any melee who can hold his own in the sub (hint: I did solo my way to hound when I was drunk and forgot quest..)

How about reaver, those elementals openly mock rogues, and I dont recall ever seeing a pure rogue tank the reaver.
/raises hand, I do tank the reaver whenever ppl are lazy.. You seriously wanna make that a point? Reaver is a joke as is the rest of mod4 what ppl do from lvl 8, it's not a question of tanking reaver, it's a question of who's not leeching on the instance.
The elementals are best suited for rogues, acrobats actually. I constantly whack em up with mine with no problem.

How many pure rogues do you recall tanking the hound and when all hell breaks loose there, you don't usually see the rogue quickly taking down the encroaching mini beholders.
Again I've gotta raise my hand, tanked hound whenever the tanks were too chicken for it, and you know what, even better than many so called "tanks". Especially since it can't toss me away like anyone else and got the ac to easily tank it. In fact, I recieved compliments from clerics of doing a better than usual job at it. Can survive bees with barely over 300 hp as well.

I'm glad you brought up beholders, again showing your ignorance on the class. Rogues are second best at whacking through them, first being wf rogues. Whenever I see a mob in the sub on my rog, I always jump headfirst on the beholder while the rest handles the other trash.

Of course these fall outside his niche abilities.
ORLY?

These situations are not necessarily impossible for rogues, they just don't perform as well as others here. In the abbot he will be about as effective as a block of stone.
You mean rogues can't take up a blunt gub and beat him to a pulp w/o crits like any other class would do? Or that rogues can't do any of the puzzles as good as any pileons? In fact I've even saved abbot a couple times coz it didn't blast me to oblivion, or I could heal in middle of ice puzzle, or I could .. ehmmm, summon ghouls, dispell, stone them in a heartbeat. Actually the change to abbot only gives more chance for other melees to be more useful in there while not hurting rogues at all.

pure rogues don't perform as well as others in much of it.
As stated numerous times, know what you talk first.

Vivanto

07-13-2009, 09:54 AM

snip

Heh, can't quote coz of the embedded quotes, but now that you mention.. Pure rogues solo reaver even postmod, how many melees can say that? ;)

Varr

07-13-2009, 10:08 AM

Tin.....couple mistakes. First, this is a rogue lovefest thread......which I feel right at home in. Second, any decent rogue will end up at about 40% of his total career attacks being back attacks (have you totally being right about rogues as second tier dps during the other 60% with the career damage arch being **** good overall.). Third, to attack rogue it is best to note thier greatest str/weakness.....versatility. Takes alot of focus to build equipt and play a rogue to capability. Feats, ac, and saves are all rogue weaknesses.....as an example.....do I keep my bloodstone on or put on the eye for saves. Ok bloodstone and resist boots....oops no more madetone boots.....

You get the picture......a rogue has a dps, saves, umd, trapping set of gear to juggle and all high end. Which is why like a combate Mage, they are so versitile and fun.

tinyelvis

07-13-2009, 10:19 AM

Ok, seems you guys missed the point or didn't bother to read the thread. I never stated a rogue could not do things like tank reaver or hound. In fact I even pointed out it was possible. I merely responded to the OP claim that without back stab, rogues could melee as well as anyone. This is not true. Are you all really telling me it is. If so, then some form of mass delusion is at work here. For, without backstab, a rogue does not perform as well.

In the niche situation where backstab is available, a rogue can outperform all melee. Especially when short term buffs are used like haste boost. Backstabbing is a niche situation. It may exist a lot against trash mobs, however, it is often unavailable in end game situations where DPS is often needed. I didnt mean to step so soundly on the fragile, insecure, ego of the rogue player. Again, just to be clear, rogues can out perform all other pure melee types.

I have played rogues, they are fun. I know some of you have chips on your shoulders and are looking for a rogue hater to take into a back alley and beat with a pipe. I am not a rogue hater, just making a point about back stab.

Zuldar

07-13-2009, 10:38 AM

One rogue in the party meh. Two or more rogues and now we're talking.

Crarites

07-13-2009, 10:53 AM

It may exist a lot against trash mobs, however, it is often unavailable in end game situations where DPS is often needed.

Just out of curiosity, when you say often unavailable in end game situation.. your actually saying not available for abbot and sorjek right?

Seosamh

07-13-2009, 12:05 PM

And you seriously think that Assassin III will proc each crit? And that the set bonus will proc each crit?

I laugh.

Do you seriously think vorpal procs on every crit? Do you seriously think the Dreamspitter procs on every crit?

I feel sorry for you.

Did I ever say Assassin III or the set bonus would proc on every crit? No, I did not.

Reading comprehension FTW.

kamimitsu

07-13-2009, 12:11 PM

And you seriously think that Assassin III will proc each crit? And that the set bonus will proc each crit?

I laugh.

Actually, the testing on Lamannia showed that the AssassinIII effect procced on EVERY natural 20 that was confirmed. Including, very interstingly, ranged and unarmed attacks. Whether it will continue to do so is another story.

As for the set bonus, I'm guessing 3-5%, but only time will tell.

Backstabbing is a niche situation. It may exist a lot against trash mobs, however, it is often unavailable in end game situations where DPS is often needed.

Doesn't 'niche', by definition, mean that it doesn't exist in many situations. 99% of this game is trash mobs, most of which are subject to Sneak Attack. Secondly, I can only think of a few 'end game situations' where backstabbing doesn't contribute. However, with the right weapons a rogue can still contribute (though not optimally, but that's why we bring 11 other people).

I didn't take DPS to be the main thrust of the OP's post. Rather, he was addressing the versatility factor, and in that regard, I agree wholeheartedly.

kingfisher

07-13-2009, 12:17 PM

to get in the little "we are geigh for rogues" fan club/support group right?

kamimitsu

07-13-2009, 12:41 PM

to get in the little "we are geigh for rogues" fan club/support group right?

Do I have to pay you royalties for advertising? I'll have our organization's accountant pay you a visit to 'settle' our debt.

For those already in the club, use your "Approved Secret Decoder" to decipher the message below:

[Click my sig to visit the R.O.G.U.E. Proving Grounds a/k/a "I <3 Rogues Fan Club and Support Group!]
And Drink More Ovaltine!

Absolute-Omniscience

07-13-2009, 12:42 PM

Do you seriously think vorpal procs on every crit? Do you seriously think the Dreamspitter procs on every crit?

I feel sorry for you.

Did I ever say Assassin III or the set bonus would proc on every crit? No, I did not.

Reading comprehension FTW.

As you worded your post it appeared that the crit range mattered in all that ********, whilst it do not except for the soon to be worthless wop which everyone gets anyways.

Vorpal is worthless except for trash
Wop is worthless except for trash (will soon be for trash as well)
Level drain is worthless except for trash

Don't vindicate a rogue just because they get worthless trash killing abilities. Advocate them because they deal a ****load of dps.

kamimitsu

07-13-2009, 12:58 PM

Vorpal is worthless except for trash
Wop is worthless except for trash (will soon be for trash as well)
Level drain is worthless except for trash

Don't vindicate a rogue just because they get worthless trash killing abilities. Advocate them because they deal a ****load of dps.

Why is killing trash worthless? The faster you kill them, the faster you can get to the boss/end. Especially considering the new DA system and grazing blows, I'd imagine that killing trash mobs quickly and efficiently will be extremely valuable. Having a buttload of DPS to boot doesn't hurt, either!

On a small side note, Red-nameds will be affected by up to 10 points of Stat Damage in the coming Mod, so WoP/WoE/MoBB, etc may be useful on Non-Trash mobs as well (I haven't done any testing to see if it is noticeable or prudent to use on bosses).

kingfisher

07-13-2009, 01:04 PM

[QUOTE=kamimitsu;2300419]Do I have to pay you royalties for advertising? I'll have our organization's accountant pay you a visit to 'settle' our debt.

QUOTE]

yall have an accountant? you spring the Enron guy from the clink or something?
anyway, i prefer favors to payments, you can just owe me one. ;)

Thriand

07-13-2009, 01:31 PM

However, to outfit himself efficiently he needs to run the skelly in sub, or SOS. You dont see many pure rogues doing either quickly and efficiently without help from others
Rogues are awesome in SOS for everything but the end fight, and who cares with a single decent caster it'll be over in no time.

How about reaver, those elementals openly mock rogues, and I dont recall ever seeing a pure rogue tank the reaver. Of course, when the elementals have been neutralized and the reaver sucessfully tanked, sure the rogues and all the other pikers can jump the Reaver.
My Rogue tanks the reaver all the time, and rogues can dispatch the elementals just as well as any other melee, especially if they are acrobats.

How many pure rogues do you recall tanking the hound and when all hell breaks loose there, you don't usually see the rogue quickly taking down the encroaching mini beholders.
This is where you clearly show that you don't know what you are talking about, an Acrobat rogue can't be knocked down and makes one of the best hound tanks, and thanks to crippling strike rogues are the BEST at taking out mini beholders, no one can issue as much STR damage per second as a rogue.

This is the end game content, its sad but outside their not so large niche, pure rogues don't perform as well as others in much of it.

Not so large niche? No fortification monsters make up the majority of this game, if everything has such amazing fortification than why does everyone love khopeshes, bloodstones, crit rage, and other crit dependent things so much, its not like they can crit against anything since the large majority of mobs have heavy fort according to you.

Every class whips the tar out of trash mobs, if that's your goal, you can get away with playing a melee bard.
7/9 Raid bosses are sneak attackable, 7/10 if you want to count sorjek as a raid boss. However if you want to go through end game content and count the number of sneak attackable red names compared to the number of ones that can't I think you'll find rogues have a rather large "niche" even outside of trash mobs.

Absolute-Omniscience

07-13-2009, 04:41 PM

Why is killing trash worthless? The faster you kill them, the faster you can get to the boss/end. Especially considering the new DA system and grazing blows, I'd imagine that killing trash mobs quickly and efficiently will be extremely valuable. Having a buttload of DPS to boot doesn't hurt, either!

On a small side note, Red-nameds will be affected by up to 10 points of Stat Damage in the coming Mod, so WoP/WoE/MoBB, etc may be useful on Non-Trash mobs as well (I haven't done any testing to see if it is noticeable or prudent to use on bosses).

Well, what I was meaning was that vorpal is worthless for the trash you are refering to, it is ofcourse not worthless against Beardeds in vod for example, but a mob can only be vorped so much (eg, doesn't matter if you get vorp*2 on a natural 20) so vorpal effect wont be that great. Same goes for energy drain, they'll die of dps faster, or vorp at a natrual 20 if they are high hp mobs.

Stacking 3 different effects that does basically the same thing but rarely on the same roll isn't that great of a synergy.
As I said, who cares if the mob gets 4 negs levels and gets vorped 2 times on a nat 20, it's still dying of the first vorp which you will have against those high hp mobs.

Draccus

07-13-2009, 04:53 PM

KingOfCheese

07-13-2009, 05:06 PM

If you look at rogues vs. other classes and all you see is numbers, you don't understand, nor will you ever understand, what playing a rogue is all about. In that case, it's better you just play a ranger or barbarian.

/signed

I think most people would agree that the quality of the player trumps build/gear, etc. For well built, top-geared characters, the quality of the player makes nearly all of the difference (differences between maxed builds of one sort or another result in a few seconds difference here or there). Put a well built and geared rogue in the hands of a good player and look out--great flexibility, great party success, and tons of fun to play. I'd always prefer to have one (or more) of these in any group of 6 or 12 that I am in. This is a class defined by the intangibles. And in the hands of good players, intangibles are the ingredients of success.

Freeman

07-13-2009, 05:09 PM

Further, access to the best DPS weapons is limited without a feat meaning you will have to spend more to get to the same potential base weapon damage level.

What weapon are you talking about specifically? The best DPS weapon in the game is the khopesh, which anyone would have to take a feat to get. What other weapons were you referring to that rogues aren't proficient in already?

Vivanto

07-13-2009, 05:51 PM

Well, what I was meaning was that vorpal is worthless for the trash you are refering to, it is ofcourse not worthless against Beardeds in vod for example, but a mob can only be vorped so much (eg, doesn't matter if you get vorp*2 on a natural 20) so vorpal effect wont be that great. Same goes for energy drain, they'll die of dps faster, or vorp at a natrual 20 if they are high hp mobs.

Stacking 3 different effects that does basically the same thing but rarely on the same roll isn't that great of a synergy.
As I said, who cares if the mob gets 4 negs levels and gets vorped 2 times on a nat 20, it's still dying of the first vorp which you will have against those high hp mobs.

There's always a sinergy to build up, just sometimes it's not so obvious. You can go full dps mode (since wop will be nerfed, tough it's very much arguable being useless), and still have the off chance to vorp, both are favorable outcome. Currently you either pray for a natural 20, or you go dps which is a sure bet it'll die but you it may take more than rolling 20 on first hit... or less.

Neg levels are again good for any save based attacks, you debuffed a couple devils when the sorc just screamed his hearts content out (vail of banshee) or they stick into that disco better, or your banisher will land more, or they won't break out of gc, trip, easier stun.. It's a party game, just because you don't directly benefit from it (tough in many cases you do) dosen't mean it's useless.

Just the other person saying rogues need a hand in sos, every melee does ^^

Absolute-Omniscience

07-13-2009, 05:55 PM

There's always a sinergy to build up, just sometimes it's not so obvious. You can go full dps mode (since wop will be nerfed, tough it's very much arguable being useless), and still have the off chance to vorp, both are favorable outcome. Currently you either pray for a natural 20, or you go dps which is a sure bet it'll die but you it may take more than rolling 20 on first hit... or less.

Neg levels are again good for any save based attacks, you debuffed a couple devils when the sorc just screamed his hearts content out (vail of banshee) or they stick into that disco better, or your banisher will land more, or they won't break out of gc, trip, easier stun.. It's a party game, just because you don't directly benefit from it (tough in many cases you do) dosen't mean it's useless.

Just the other person saying rogues need a hand in sos, every melee does ^^

Yea, it will help you with some rare mobs where you manage to roll a nat 20, I agree. But imo that's not something you should flash around saying "Hey, roll a rogue, they get free vorp on 20!", if you wanna flash rogues, flash em like "Rogue, has the highest dps possible".