The Hate Monster (mod 9 concept build)

[Thanimal]

With the Beta NDA finally lifted, it's time to publish this idea I've been thinking about that is designed to work well with new rules (especially Grazing Blows) and new abilities (especially the Defender line). I'm also expecting the AC "bar" is lowered just a little since it's been stated that Grazing Blows will "allow" them to reduce mob to-hit values.
As usual, this build is intended more to inspire others than to say "My build is the uber r0x0rs." (Heh, I can't even fake that kind of boasting.)
Also as usual, this is long. So strap in!

BUILD GOALS (note that some of these are exceeded by the example build below):
- Able to hold aggro reliably from hate against any build that is not trying to hold aggro
- Full time DR 7 to significantly mitigate Annoying Bee Sting damage in Mod 9
- Evasion
- By level 16 (just because I know the targets for that), AC of 60 "easily" (i.e. standard buffs and no rare equipment); 80 feasible. These targets would have been 65 and 85 before, so I am counting on the rumored reduction in to-hit that is paired with Grazing Blows.
- By level 16, saves of 25/30/25 with pretty standard equip/buffs

Nice to have:
- Able to "fake it" as a DPS build when holding aggro is not required
- Able to use a Tower Shield passably if turtling up for max DR becomes a good idea
- WF immunities
- Cure Wand use

It turns out the best build I came up with toward the above goals has the same level breakdown as The Monster. But it's a pretty different build, with significantly less DPS (though still "decent" when needed) and significantly better ability to tank.
My wife dubbed the concept The Hate Monster.

The Hate Monster
Warforged Fighter (Defender) 12/Ranger (Tempest) 6/Monk 2

Starting stats and targets AT 16 [point costs in brackets]
STR 16 [10] + 2 Tome + 3 fighter + 4 bumps + 6 item + 3 stance = 34
DEX 16 [10] + 2 Tome + 2 ranger + 6 item = 26
CON 11 [1] + 2 Tome + 2 wf + 6 item + 3 stance = 24
WIS 13 [8] + 2 Tome + 1 Monk + 6 item = 22
INT 11 [3] + 2 Tome = 13
CHA 6 [0]


Master feat list: Dodge, TWD, TWF, iTWF, gTWF, Khopesh, Focus: Slashing, Spec: Slashing, PA, CE, DRx4, iCrit, Toughness, Mobility, Spring Attack, FE: Undead, FE: Evil Outsider

EDIT: Although my original feat order was perfectly fine, I think the new order below is just slightly better. This allows me to get CE a little earlier - 10 instead of 14 - and CE is pretty key to go into GH because those guys hit hard. (The bad news is that this requires finding a +2 INT Tome a little earier, too.) This ordering also requires two respecs, but Dragonshards are pretty cheap these days, so I think it's worth it. (And one respec is free courtesy of Lockania.) If you're really opposed to paying for respecs, just take Mobility at 6 to being with, and then use Scimitars at 9, 10, 11. (Before iCrit hits at 9, Monk weapons are probably overall better.)

Level sequence and Feats
1: Ranger. +DR, FE: Undead (granted: Bow STR)
2: Ranger. (granted: TWF)
3: Monk. +DR, MBF: Dodge
4: Monk. MBF: Toughness
5: Fighter. FBF: TWD
6: Fighter. +DR, FBF: Khopesh Proficiency (changes to Mobility @ 12)
7: Fighter
8: Fighter. FBF: iTWF (changes to Spring Attack @ 14)
9: Fighter. iCrit: Slashing
10: Fighter. FBF: CE (Defender I hits here)
11: Ranger.
12: Ranger. (respec Khopesh to Mobility; then take Khopesh Proficiency here)
13: Ranger. FE: Evil Outsider
14: Ranger. (respec iTWF to Spring Attack; granted: iTWF) (Tempest I hits here)
15: Fighter. gTWF
16: Fighter. FBF: Power Attack
17: Fighter.
18: Fighter. +DR, FBF: Focus: Slashing
19: Fighter.
20: Fighter. FBF: Spec: Slashing (Defender II hits here)

So some stuff comes pretty darned late, here, especially for "DPS mode." But I think it makes a lot of sense to front-load the DR, because DR is effective against all hits in the early game. If you want to emphasize DPS more at lower levels, some rearrangement is very possible.

EDIT: I updated the AC for some additional equipment and options, and also noted the "known" stuff coming at 20, at the end.
EDIT: It turns out they did NOT take away the "Centered Bonus" in Mod 9 for characters who aren't actually centered. Apparently I completely imagined that. So free extra point of AC! :)

AC at 16
Without farming
10 base
9 DT docent
1 alchemical
8 dex
6 wis
5 CE
2 Tempest
5 Deflection
2 stance
1 Defender
1 Dodge feat
1 TWD
2 Chaosgarde
1 Centered Bonus
---
54

Standard self-buff
1 Haste
3 Bark
---
58

"Easy buffs"
+2 Ranger
+4 Bard
---
64 (actually a bit better than target)

With farming
3 Dodge
4 Insight
---
71

Slightly less likely buffs
+5 Paladin
+2 Recitation
---
78

Favored Enemy
79

Even more uber equipment
+2 DEX from +3 Tome and +3 exceptional bonus (Lightning Strike weapon)
+2 WIS from +3 Tome and +3 exceptional bonus (ring)
---
83

All-out defensive pose (Wind Stance and Kamas)
+1 DEX from Wind Stance
---
84

Short-term
+2 Shield clickie
---
86

Very short term
+3 Fighter AC boost (it's a prereq to Defender, might as well use it!)
---
89

Stuff that hits at 20
+1 Defender II
+1 Defender Stance II
---
91

Saves at 16
Without Heavy Farming
Fighter 8: 6/2/2
Ranger 6: 5/5/2
Monk 2: 3/3/3
Resist: 5/5/5
GH: 4/4/4
stance: 1/1/1
luck: 1/1/1
attributes: 7/8/6
enhancements: 0/0/1
---
32/29/25

Uberer equipment
luck: +1/+1/+1 (Head)
Stats: +0/+2/+2 (Tomes and exceptional on DEX and WIS)
Crafting: +1/+1/+1
---
34/33/29

Extended to 20
4 more fighter levels: +2/+2/+2
Stance II: +1/+1/+1
---
37/36/32

So takes some slightly uber stuff to hit the Reflex target, but certainly "pretty good." Btw, this is one of the big reasons I don't like the Fighter 18/Monk 2 option as much, since that path has noticeably worse Reflex save, making Evasion less of an asset.
Also note we do get the full effect of anybody with a Paladin aura.


Enhancements through 20 (not in any particular order)
12: Warforged Damage Reduction III
4: Ranger Tempest
6: Ranger Dex II
2: Monk Wis I
6: Fighter Haste Boost III
12: Fighter STR III
3: Fighter Intim II (prereq)
3: Fighter AC Boost II (prereq)
1: Fighter Item Defense I (prereq)
3: Fighter Toughness II (prereq that I actually want)
6: Fighter Stalwart Defender II
1: WF Construct Thinking I
2: WF Healer's Friend I
6: WF Brute Fighting III
6: WF Con II
3: Ranger Favored Damage II
1: Ranger Favored Defense I
1: Ranger Sprint Boost I
1: Fighter Khopesh Spec
1: WF Toughness I

Overall, enhancements weren't too ugly. There's always more useful stuff, but all the key stuff made it with a few nice-to-haves.
Note that Wind Stance should be taken early and used all the time until about level 9, but then probably dropped. It may then make a return at very high levels when the extra WF Hate can be backed off, to be used for Max Protect Mode if tanking an uber boss on Elite.

Hit points at 16
Without effort
20 base
19 Toughness
30 Toughness enhancements
112 CON (in stance)
80 Fighter
48 Ranger
16 Monk
20 IFL
20 Minos Hat (added 8/12/09)
---
365

With effort
+10 GFL
+10 favor award
+45 Shroud item
---
430

Extended to 20
+40 Fighter
+4 Toughness
+28 CON
---
502

EDIT 2009/10/06: I fixed an error in my computation, but I see I'm still coming up a little short of one-shot protection against Horgoth (elite) -- folks seems to report that target at about 530. This may well mean that the last two feats should not be the Focus/Spec pair for DPS, but instead two more Toughness feats, to bring this total to 548. Unfortunately, this requires a semi-awkward respec, since Toughness is not actually a Fighter Bonus feat. Would have to swap the feats from 9 and 12 to Toughness, and then use the feats at 18 and 20 for iCrit and Khopesh Proficiency. Totally doable, though, and may well be worth it. Also, I believe I'm going to have 6 enhancement points available upon hitting 20, as WF Brute Fighting will become unnessary with +100% hate. Those can be converted into +20 HP fairly trivially. So without any rage effects (which are annoying because they reduce AC, but that might be fine in some cases), that would be a "fairly comfortable" 568.

Skills
Skills are really an afterthought here, but it seems we get some, especially if willing to eat a +1 Tome at level 1. Jump and Balance seem pretty obvious for tanking utility, and I suppose there's no reason not to max Intimidate as a crowd control device for trash mobs. Then maybe some Spot to be able to see whom to tank??

EDIT: It's been pointed out by Monkey_Archer and Dworkin that it could be worth going for UMD as your "other skill." This is a little ugly, but theoretically by the end-game it might be much more of an asset than Spot.

12 Ranks + 2 (Charisma with a +2 Tome and +6 Item) + 5 (Seven Fingered Gloves) + 6 (Green Steel) + 2 (Head of Good Fortune) + 4 (GH) = 31 UMD. You gotta be a fairly uber power-gamer to get there, but if you are it might be the best way to go with skills. Of particular note: This gives you a reasonable shot at UMDing a Shield Wand (10th), which could keep you at peak AC during almost an entire end-game boss fight on Elite.

And finally, DPS. I'm not going to list out a pile of computations here, but I did my best to compare this build against a fully boosted Monster, and as long as both builds are the same level, have similar equipment, and the same party-wide buffs, it appears the +70% hate from Defender I stance and WF Brute Fighting III is more than enough to hold aggro. At level 20, this jumps to +120% hate, which is probably overkill.

In addition, if this build assumes DPS Mode (mainly by Power Attack instead of CE), then I believe it's able to hit about 70% of a fully boosted Monster. -30% is not a trivial drop, but at the same time it also means this build can be a non-negligible contributor in pure DPS situations. In fact, I guess I think this build will use Power Attack quite a lot.

Possibly worth noting: This build ranked first among tanks on Monkey_Archer's Shroud-DPS metric. (He may have been slightly generous in what feats/enhancements would fit, but it appears to me it would be on top of the tanks anyhow.)

NOTE: If you're interested in hate tanks, be sure to take a look at the Valenar Crusader, too: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=192261. It achieves many of the same goals, with slightly different strengths and weaknesses.

Turtle Tank Appendix (added 2009/10/07)
Later in this thread you'll see some discussion about how this build would approach ToD/elite boss tanking. For that particular task its AC is useless (indeed it's going to be VERY hard for any build to get sufficient AC it seems), and its HP are a bit light to just stand there and take it (even if take Toughness 3 times as hinted at above). However, it appears it can do a passable job using Intimidate and turtling, which theoretically might be useful in a few other spots, too. Here's some relevant info:

Intimidate score optimally equipped at level 20:
EDIT 2009/11/10: It seems I added this wrong before! And now that I've fixed that mistake, it seems I am well short of being hold Elite end-game bosses via Intimidate. But meanwhile there are some ways to greatly improve my HP for the possibility of Hate-based tanking with full-time healer covering me. UPDATES COMING EVENTUALLY! :)
23 ranks
+15 item (no proof yet of better -- PLEASE let me know via PM if you discover otherwise)
+3 CHA (6 base + 6 item + 4 Tome = 16)
+6 Shroud CHA skilz item
+4 GH
+2 luck (head)
+6 enhancements (2 Fighter enh are prereqs to Stalwart II and Stalwart II grants +4)
+2 Bard Song (hopefully available if tanking the game's hardest raid on Elite!)
---
61

DR in full turtle mode
11 BAB
15 Levik's shield
7 WF DR
4 Stalwart II turtling bonus
---
36

+13 if Docent of Defiance fires
---
49 sometimes

[rezo]

Looks good, going to roll one up and see how it works.

[Thanimal]

Looks good, going to roll one up and see how it works.

SWEET! I would love it if you can report your experience here. My playtime is never a lot, and in the summer it's even less, so I won't be personally advancing this build much any time soon. (Actually, full disclosure: I kinda need to unlock 32 point builds before I make this build. :) It really suffers as a 28.)

[Depravity]

I've been thinking of how to do this myself, especially if I can build something to run bracers of the demon consort - (on hit 20% each chance of a 30 point heal, dc 17 curse, inflict moderate wounds, and 1% chance of unavoidable level drain).

Iirc, chaosgarde and the stance are both +2 dodge bonuses, so they may not stack (as per chattering ring/DT armor).

Also, does anybody know if guard effects create hate? if so, builds like this may be able to stretch their aggro generation a bit by loading up on guard items.

Please keep us posted if you build one.

[Thanimal]

I've been thinking of how to do this myself, especially if I can build something to run bracers of the demon consort - (on hit 20% each chance of a 30 point heal, dc 17 curse, inflict moderate wounds, and 1% chance of unavoidable level drain).

Sounds fun, and may be pretty interesting if Grazing Blows trigger on-hit effects (which it's been claimed they do).


Iirc, chaosgarde and the stance are both +2 dodge bonuses, so they may not stack (as per chattering ring/DT armor).

I would be VERY surprised if they don't stack. That dodge rule only applies to two items with the same bonus.


Also, does anybody know if guard effects create hate? if so, builds like this may be able to stretch their aggro generation a bit by loading up on guard items.

Great question! I would think they should, but really have no evidence for that guess.

[Thanimal]

Hey where's Shade, btw? :) I've got a tank here that doesn't use Intimidate except for crowd control. Just like he's been saying we should! :)

[drsmooth]

I like this idea and have been trying to come up with a decent pure paladin aggro holder that uses the increased hate generation from the Defender of Siberys line. Right now I am trying stuck on going WF or dwarf. WF obviously have WF brute strength AP line that gives you even more hate on your melee attacks, but if the fighter defender Pre is eventually available to dwarves a la arcane archer to elves, I would go dwarf(Depending on requirements). Though two defender stances can't be activated, the fighter defender Pre has bonus AC(non-stance) per tier which would still work. If anyone has tried taking both defender lines on a pally/fighter during the Beta let me know what the results were :)

[Depravity]

I would be VERY surprised if they don't stack. That dodge rule only applies to two items with the same bonus.

Knowing the way things work around here, I'd half expect the code to see it as "a dodge bonus is a dodge bonus". Know of any items w/ a +1 dodge bonus on them I could test on a character with the dodge feat? I can't think of one, in which case this hasn't come up before.

[Thanimal]

I like this idea and have been trying to come up with a decent pure paladin aggro holder that uses the increased hate generation from the Defender of Siberys line. Right now I am trying stuck on going WF or dwarf. WF obviously have WF brute strength AP line that gives you even more hate on your melee attacks, but if the fighter defender Pre is eventually available to dwarves a la arcane archer to elves, I would go dwarf(Depending on requirements). Though two defender stances can't be activated, the fighter defender Pre has bonus AC(non-stance) per tier which would still work. If anyone has tried taking both defender lines on a pally/fighter during the Beta let me know what the results were :)

Just for completeness, there was one huge reason I didn't go Paladin and I didn't go Dwarf: DR. I feel that if we're not going to use a tower shield (and obviously we can't because then the DPS * hate isn't CLOSE to enough to hold aggro) then we need some non-trivial permanent DR for those annoying grazing blows. Paladin simply doesn't have the feats to fit enough DR. That said, it's possible to equip a Bloodrage Symbiont for full-time DR 5, and maybe that's enough.

[Thanimal]

Knowing the way things work around here, I'd half expect the code to see it as "a dodge bonus is a dodge bonus". Know of any items w/ a +1 dodge bonus on them I could test on a character with the dodge feat? I can't think of one, in which case this hasn't come up before.

The Dodge feat and the alchemical ritual (which is currently a Dodge bonus as far as I know) stack.

[Taojeff]

Just for completeness, there was one huge reason I didn't go Paladin and I didn't go Dwarf: DR. I feel that if we're not going to use a tower shield (and obviously we can't because then the DPS * hate isn't CLOSE to enough to hold aggro) then we need some non-trivial permanent DR for those annoying grazing blows. Paladin simply doesn't have the feats to fit enough DR. That said, it's possible to equip a Bloodrage Symbiont for full-time DR 5, and maybe that's enough.

I had no problem keeping aggro with my Dwarf Palidan, even with several frenzied wf in the party. Why cause with greensteel and exalted smite you are hitting for 600+ in some cases. Ok so with 200% hate its just like you hit for 1200 to that mob. Both divine sacrifince and exalted smite both got another level.

That being said. I am going to take the stalwart for my pally if they let dwarves get it for dwarven defender. Then you can take knight of the challice for some extra evil outsider damage (which is most of mobs in next mod). Now you have great ac, decent dps, great saves....

Another thing is if they let dwarves have the pre you can have room to splash in classes like pally/fighter/rogue etc.

[Thanimal]

I had no problem keeping aggro with my Dwarf Palidan, even with several frenzied wf in the party. Why cause with greensteel and exalted smite you are hitting for 600+ in some cases. Ok so with 200% hate its just like you hit for 1200 to that mob. Both divine sacrifince and exalted smite both got another level.

Good points. However, I don't think it's quite as obvious as you're saying that that's enough. Under ideal circumstance, the Monster has been shown at over 600 actual DPS per second (for 20 seconds). So even hitting for 1800 (600 actual with +200% hate of Defender III) gives you a 3-second "head start." That's plenty as long as you still have Smites, because you can do that again every 4 seconds. But once you run out of Smites, I hypothesize you will lose aggro soon thereafter??

In terms of peak possible DPS, the Frenzied WF isn't at the top. See http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=174906. (I use the full-buffed Monster as the mark for aggro generation, because I assume all those Rogue builds that can do more actual DPS are smart enough to take Subtle Backstabbing. And even if they aren't, whenever aggro turns to them their DPS drops like a stone in a vaccuum, allowing me to catch up quickly.)

But in any case, the concept I was aiming for was TWF for "actual" DPS. I probably should have just steered away from making any claims about S&B, since I hadn't given that any serious thought.


That being said. I am going to take the stalwart for my pally if they let dwarves get it for dwarven defender. Then you can take knight of the challice for some extra evil outsider damage (which is most of mobs in next mod). Now you have great ac, decent dps, great saves....

Another thing is if they let dwarves have the pre you can have room to splash in classes like pally/fighter/rogue etc.

Personally, I am going to be very surprised if they offer that to dwarves. Although they hinted at that quite a while back, I think once they thought it through they saw it could mean nobody ever built another tank who wasn't a Dwarf. Of course, I've been wrong before. At least once...

[drsmooth]

True pure Paladin might not be able to hold off a perfectly geared max dps'er, but shouldn't do that bad of a job. I mostly just wanted input on how effective(if it is) that non-intimitanking is. Defender 3 gets 200% and the Divine Righteousness boost(2xhate only 20secs tho). The DR for grazing blows shouldn't be a problem, as you can UMD stoneskin wands, or have an arcane cast on you.
I was also trying to create a decent pure class tank. I am actually not a fan of pure classing, hence why this is a challenge for me. I have one pure class character out of max slots and he is a WF wizard. I am also sick of way too many dwarf melees, but sometimes you just have to :)

[maddmatt70]

What is your projected DR? A side comment since the NDA is lifted all builds should list projected Damage Reduction due to grazing hits.

[Thanimal]

What is your projected DR? A side comment since the NDA is lifted all builds should list projected Damage Reduction due to grazing hits.

full-time 7

[Thanimal]

True pure Paladin might not be able to hold off a perfectly geared max dps'er, but shouldn't do that bad of a job. I mostly just wanted input on how effective(if it is) that non-intimitanking is. Defender 3 gets 200% and the Divine Righteousness boost(2xhate only 20secs tho). The DR for grazing blows shouldn't be a problem, as you can UMD stoneskin wands, or have an arcane cast on you.
I was also trying to create a decent pure class tank. I am actually not a fan of pure classing, hence why this is a challenge for me. I have one pure class character out of max slots and he is a WF wizard. I am also sick of way too many dwarf melees, but sometimes you just have to :)

I must admit I haven't tried it, but I'm pretty sure Stoneskin is not the answer to Grazing Blows. On Elite, you are getting hitting on 50% of all enemy attacks, which means in a crowded room your Stoneskin is going to last for about 20 seconds. Best case, this is going to get EXPENSIVE fast, and I think more realistically it's just not going to work.

If somebody with actual experience says otherwise, I'll definitely listen!

[Thanimal]

I mostly just wanted input on how effective(if it is) that non-intimitanking is.

Well, non-intimitanking is going to be exactly as effective as your hate-DPS, right? So I don't think it's a "general question" -- I think the question is whether you can out-hate everybody or not. I think any build that can out-aggro-generate the best DPS builds in the game can be expected to be effective in the roll that would normally be an intimitank. Any build that cannot will sometimes not be able to be a tank at all.

[CIuB]

One thing to bear in mind is that Dwarves will qualify for the dwarven defender line without being a fighter. ( But this will take away the possibility of having another fighter line).

This change will probably come MOD 10

So soon all low levels will be full of 7-15 year (Coming August 6th!) old drow fighters with 6 con, so it might be a good idea to get those builds capped now, even the ones that may be usefull later on. Not to mention getting that mad madstone XP before its nerfed

[cforce]

Good points. However, I don't think it's quite as obvious as you're saying that that's enough. Under ideal circumstance, the Monster has been shown at over 600 actual DPS per second (for 20 seconds). So even hitting for 1800 (600 actual with +200% hate of Defender III) gives you a 3-second "head start." That's plenty as long as you still have Smites, because you can do that again every 4 seconds. But once you run out of Smites, I hypothesize you will lose aggro soon thereafter??

Hm, this just reminded me of an important flip side that worth considering when trying to hate-tank with the new defender lines: when *they* get a head start.

I'm sure I shouldn't worry about that, though -- because it's not like anyone ever copies the highest DPS builds right off of the forum, and then plays them like an idiot, zerging into every crowd first...

...oh, wait.

So, when thinking about a situation where a Monster build gets, say, a 1.5-second head start, how long would it take the hate-tank to overtake it? I think it might be a (relatively) long time?

We could simply say, "well, they're being stupid, and deserve the extra aggro they take". However, one advantage of intimitanking is certainly "saving stupid players from themselves". (And the Cleric's SP bar.)

[Thanimal]

Hm, this just reminded me of an important flip side that worth considering when trying to hate-tank with the new defender lines: when *they* get a head start.

I'm sure I shouldn't worry about that, though -- because it's not like anyone ever copies the highest DPS builds right off of the forum, and then plays them like an idiot, zerging into every crowd first...

...oh, wait.

So, when thinking about a situation where a Monster build gets, say, a 1.5-second head start, how long would it take the hate-tank to overtake it? I think it might be a (relatively) long time?

We could simply say, "well, they're being stupid, and deserve the extra aggro they take". However, one advantage of intimitanking is certainly "saving stupid players from themselves". (And the Cleric's SP bar.)

Yeah, it's a serious issue. Here's some mitigating factors:
- The build does have Intimidate (and is arm-twisted into +6 Intim from enhancements), so often can gather trash mobs the old fashioned way. Hopefully in the "big" fights people will strategize more and let you engage first.
- This build actually has more DPS than some "DPS" builds, so with the Hate bonus it can catch up quickly against anything suboptimal.
- Ranger sprint boost to enter the battle first. :)
- To catch up against an optimal DPS build, it will probably have to switch PA on, and just eat the fact that it's a suboptimal tank. However, it's a better tank than that optimal DPS build, so would still rather have the aggro. And then you say "please don't do that, I'm trying to tank here." :)

Another thing that may be tough is if a Barbarian insists on throwing Intimidate, which trumps all hate aggro. About all you can do there is say "Let me do that so you can dominate in kills."

[jddonkeykong]

expected to see a pic of my ex wife.....whew.

[Pwesiela]

Great question! I would think they should, but really have no evidence for that guess.

I am 90% certain that they do. I once had to kill a buggy scorpion by using a guard robe (he was invisible, inmaterial, and still whopping me *sigh*).

Basically, he was attacking a low hp partymate, I put on the robe, stood right beside them in order to get hit instead, and ultimately got him on me, rather than her.

[Valezra]

In terms of peak possible DPS, the Frenzied WF isn't at the top. See http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=174906. (I use the full-buffed Monster as the mark for aggro generation, because I assume all those Rogue builds that can do more actual DPS are smart enough to take Subtle Backstabbing. And even if they aren't, whenever aggro turns to them their DPS drops like a stone in a vaccuum, allowing me to catch up quickly.)

Good observation. This is exactly why when I built my Hatetank I used the Monster as the benchmark.

Some thoughts though... Your AC will barely reach 70 with a bard and Combat Expertise @ lvl 16. With combat expertise on and Power Attack off your threat generation will drop significantly. I may be wrong but you may want to calculate your Threat DPS and make sure it's over 500 (tweaked out Monster), w/out Power Attack and only +120% threat I doubt you will hold aggro against the Monster... but again a calculation will determine that.

This was a problem I had to overcome when planning out my Hatetank.

If you are curious, my build is in my sig.

Val

[Comfortably]

I can't wait to see this build in VOD.

[Valezra]

I can't wait to see this build in VOD.

I can't tell if you are serious or not... lol


Val

[Thanimal]

As noted in my OP, I attempted the DPS calcs and found this build in CE mode only needed about +65% hate at level 16 to catch The Monster (assuming we both have extra-damage Greensteel Khopeshes but that mine needs to have +4 Insight on it). Of course, I may have screwed up; I encourage anyone to verify or deny. But I'm far too lazy to copy what I did in the dps calculator into legible text. Unless I've royally screwed up, I'm not at all worried once the +120% kicks in at 20. In fact, respecking out of some of the WF hate might make sense at that point.

I want to remind everyone (also mentioned in the OP) that the devs told us they would be lowering to-hit values -- that was one reason stated for the grazing hit system. If they are lying, then this build probably comes up a little short on AC unless it is perfectly decked out. But if they have told the truth, I believe it will be just fine in that department. So anyone who is considering starting this build now will have to weigh that risk. Or just wait for a while and see!

Fwiw, one of the co-creators of the Monster (called Absolute Omniscience here on the U.S. forums) weighed in via PM (at my request), and he seemed to give it a stamp of approval but suggested a few tweaks: less DR; add Greater Focus/Specialization feats. I kinda disagree, but it really remains to be seen what is the "right" amount of DR to mitigate most grazing blows without getting so married to DR as to give up features that would be better.

He also wanted to fit Lightning Reflexes, which I think is great (since my proposed build is short of my own Reflex save target), but at the moment I feel each feat in the build just barely beats it. If the DR does turn out to be "more than enough," then I think my first tweak would be DR 6 and Lightning Reflexes (but still not fit Greater Focus/Spec).

Of course, anybody who takes my opinion over his may not be thinking clearly...

[Thanimal]

expected to see a pic of my ex wife.....whew.

Can't believe nobody commented on this. Epically funny.

Was even telling my non-DDO friends about this one.

[Valezra]

Even if you could generate enough hate the low AC and low hitpoints means your going to take a pounding and casters on Repair scrolls are going to have fun keeping you up. I've seen WF Barbarians with good DR and 700+ Hitpoints get down to less than 50% fairly fast between repairs.

Once you are fully geared out and with CE on you should have plenty of AC to maintank on normal but then the DPS generation comes back into question since you won't have power attack on.

For +65% additional threat to overcome a Monster you would need over 300 DPS sustained. Without Sneak Attack and Power Attack I don't see this build sustaining over 300 DPS... though it might... I haven't run the calcs either. I do agree that +120% will probably be enough at level 20... though your saves, hitpoints, and AC all become a factor of concern then.

I'm not trying to tear down the concept at all... I think the WF hate tank with good AC and threat can work but I would change a lot in your build to achieve it. I'm just trying to point out some things so that you don't get all the way to 20 and find out you're getting destroyed by raid bosses because AC, saves, and hitpoints actually do matter.

Maybe later I'll calc your threat DPS for funsies.

Val

[Thanimal]

Valezra, I am taking it that you don't think I've set the bar high enough for tanking numbers? Can you state what you believe those bars will be in Mod 9 for AC, save, and hit points? Also, do you assume that mob to-hit values will actually not be lowered?

EDIT: Also need to know what level you are using as a baseline. Almost everything in my post refers to 16. Many numbers improve significantly to 20 without even knowing what crazy new equipment is coming.

Just to be clear, I would never advocate that anybody try to tank off of DR and hitpoints. I believe that "hit point tanking" is a completely flawed concept in DDO. AC and saves are your first line of defense, and the entire reason for DR in the build is to defend against grazing blows (since AC doesn't work against that).

[cforce]

I'm not Val, but I found his stance for AC at level 16 in the Hatetank thread in his sig:



69 Self Buffed and Sustained is actually plenty... A typical VoD run would see me with +2 Barkskin, +2 Recitation, and +4 Bard Song = 76 AC which should be plenty.

So, using Val's criteria for 'self buffed' (which includes +4 Insight, +3 Dodge form chattering, and shield), you're 3 points short at only 66 self-buffed.

I've also seen multiple folks quote 80 as the current "tanking every raid boos on Elite" number.

But, obviously, these are Mod 8 numbers. Who knows what the future holds. While Eladrin commented that one of the things the Grazing Hit system allows him to do is selectively lower mob to-hit, I've been thinking through the likely implementation a bit more, and what I would guess is that there will be a larger spread of to-hit ranges, but I wouldn't necessarily assume that the high-water-mark will lower based on his comments.

[Aerendil]

Aside from Intimidate, a pure 20 Monk would also fill all of your criteria.
Great AC; good DR (10/epic); great saves; Evasion; reasonable dps.

You could probably go Human and burn a feat on the Deneith dragonmark, and then have a reasonable Intimidate from cross-class skillups, or go Warforged and use the racial enhancements regarding threat increases. It won't be great as an intimitank, but it'd be decent.

You'd also have self-healing, Improved Evasion, some self-buffs via Ki, and so on.

Just a thought.

[Thanimal]

I'm not Val, but I found his stance for AC at level 16 in the Hatetank thread in his sig:

So, using Val's criteria for 'self buffed' (which includes +4 Insight, +3 Dodge form chattering, and shield), you're 3 points short at only 66 self-buffed.

For raid boss tanking, I think I get to count my favored enemy bonus as well, no? Aren't pretty much all the raid boses Evil Outsiders? But I think you've counted my Fighter AC boost, which might not quite be fair?


I've also seen multiple folks quote 80 as the current "tanking every raid boos on Elite" number.

Thanks for the confirmation, though not much surprise that you and I are working from mostly the same information base!


But, obviously, these are Mod 8 numbers. Who knows what the future holds. While Eladrin commented that one of the things the Grazing Hit system allows him to do is selectively lower mob to-hit, I've been thinking through the likely implementation a bit more, and what I would guess is that there will be a larger spread of to-hit ranges, but I wouldn't necessarily assume that the high-water-mark will lower based on his comments.

Excellent points. But of course that still means that the need for huge AC is reduced (since a lower AC provides hit-on-20 protection against some portion of the attacks), and in general that having good DR *and* pretty good AC will lead to taking less damage than having no DR and fantastic AC.

Although it's all guesswork as to how things will feel in Mod 9, I personally am feeling pretty good about being able to "stretch" to 80 in an ideal raid party, with DR 7 to mitigate evil grazing blows, and having shockingly high DPS for a tank.

But, as I've stated earlier, making this build (or any build really) right now carries some risk. You might be the first guy to have the new best tank, or you might end up with a total gimp who needs to re-roll within a week or so of Mod 9 hitting!! So if your guesses are like mine, and you don't mind a little risk, give it a shot. If not, wait.

[Thanimal]

Aside from Intimidate, a pure 20 Monk would also fill all of your criteria.
Great AC; good DR (10/epic); great saves; Evasion; reasonable dps.

As you seem to agree (below), you can't drop "holding aggro" from the criteria list. If you can't get aggro on yourself, then defenses are often inactive. In fact, sometimes people mistake "inability to get anybody to care about you" for "survivability." (Clearly you are NOT making that mistake; I just wanted to point that out because I've seen it many times.)


You could probably go Human and burn a feat on the Deneith dragonmark, and then have a reasonable Intimidate from cross-class skillups, or go Warforged and use the racial enhancements regarding threat increases. It won't be great as an intimitank, but it'd be decent.

Although I haven't run the numbers, my intuition is telling me it's not possible to get an Intimidate score out of this that can hold anything but trash mobs, especially since I can't see investing in CHA on a DPS-oriented Monk. And I'm nearly positive that the +25% of taking the entire WF line is not enough to hold aggro from a peak DPS build. In addition, whenever I've gone all-out for DPS on a Monk, I've actually been disappointed with the resulting AC.

Feel free to prove my intuition is incorrect on any or all points! I am easily influenced by correct math.


Just a thought.

I like thoughts. Keep 'em coming! :)

You're making we wonder about a WF Monk 14/Fighter (Defender) 6, but off the top of my head I can't quite see how to make it work.

[cforce]

I was counting:

AC at 16
Without farming
10 base
9 DT docent
1 alchemical
8 dex
6 wis
5 CE
2 Tempest
5 Deflection
2 stance
1 Defender
1 Dodge feat
1 TWD
2 Chaosgarde
---
53

Standard self-buff
1 Haste
3 Bark
---
57

With farming
3 Dodge
4 Insight
---
64

Short-term
+2 Shield clickie
---
66

...and I suppose it's worth counting FE as well, at least for now.

+1 FE
-----
67 self-buffed

Then, using Val's assumed raid buffs, +2 recitation, +2 Ranger bark, +4 Bard song, you get up to 75 raid-buffed

So it looks like you'd need to squeeze one more point of AC out to hit Val's mark for acceptable raid-buffed AC without anyone with Pally splash levels in the party. Of course, I can't remember the last raid where *someone* in the party didn't have a Pally 2 splash, at least.

I guess the other option is relying on a bit more Shroud gear - an exceptional DEX bonus on a weapon, perhaps?

[maddmatt70]

There are alot of 8 fighter 6 ranger 2 monk split builds out there. Many were made around the time when monks first hit the scene in mod 7. They almost all tended to be offensive in nature although I do recall an intimidate build with those splits. Your build is original in the sense your goal is about hate generation and defense whereas the monster's is not original, but that is another story. Anyway here is Illumaniti's build http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=149322 .

[Thanimal]

Thanks for the further analysis.


So it looks like you'd need to squeeze one more point of AC out to hit Val's mark for acceptable raid-buffed AC without anyone with Pally splash levels in the party. Of course, I can't remember the last raid where *someone* in the party didn't have a Pally 2 splash, at least.

I guess the other option is relying on a bit more Shroud gear - an exceptional DEX bonus on a weapon, perhaps?

Hm, yeah. A +2 expectional DEX weapon might be a GREAT idea. One more point of AC and one more point of Reflex save could be a huge benefit. By the end-game, the +120% hate would overcome any DPS issues, but at 16 I'd have to redo the DPS numbers to be sure it's OK. Possibly could require taking WF Brute Fighting IV along the way, which I suppose is only a mild annoyance until finally respecking out of it at 20.

EDIT: I think I changed my mind. Putting the exceptional DEX on a weapon replaces one of your Elemental bonuses, and therefore reduces the DPS even more than simply moving two level bumps from STR to DEX. So that might be the plan if someone desperately wants one more point of AC and Reflex saves. It does not appear that the Exceptional bonuses are available on non-weapon Shroud items, although anyone is welcome to correct me on that.

[Thanimal]

There are alot of 8 fighter 6 ranger 2 monk split builds out there. Many were made around the time when monks first hit the scene in mod 7. They almost all tended to be offensive in nature although I do recall an intimidate build with those splits. Your build is original in the sense your goal is about hate generation and defense whereas the monster's is not original, but that is another story. Anyway here is Illumaniti's build http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=149322 .

Interesting, thanks.

Fwiw, I don't think the creators of The Monster were aiming for originality, but rather optimality. Perhaps I assume too much.

Personally I am quite interested in originality, so I'm glad you'd consider this concept to be original. But I'll be even more glad if it turns out to actually be GOOD! :)

[maddmatt70]

Interesting, thanks.

Fwiw, I don't think the creators of The Monster were aiming for originality, but rather optimality. Perhaps I assume too much.

Personally I am quite interesting in originality, so I'm glad you'd consider this concept to be original. But I'll be even more glad if it turns out to actually be GOOD! :)

I think that is kind of my point is the creators of 'the monster' were not the creators of 'the monster'. In that very thread/ other threads posted at the same time people discuss making wf versions of illumaniti's build.

In regards to your build as I pointed out there was an imtimitank posted with these level splits some time ago, but I do not think the maker was looking at things from a hate perspective so kudos to you for that. The intimidate skill, aggro/hate generation, and tanking. In mod 9 aggro hate generation will become more of a focus with the prestige enhancements such that it will be interesting to see how people conceptualize the whole area.

[Thanimal]

I think that is kind of my point is the creators of 'the monster' were not the creators of 'the monster'. In that very thread/ other threads posted at the same time people discuss making wf versions of illumaniti's build.

Ah, I suppose we could call them The Marketing Geniuses Who Came Up With The Monicker "The Monster"... :)


In regards to your build as I pointed out there was an imtimitank posted with these level splits some time ago, but I do not think the maker was looking at things from a hate perspective so kudos to you for that. The intimidate skill, aggro/hate generation, and tanking. In mod 9 aggro hate generation will become more of a focus with the prestige enhancements such that it will be interesting to see how people conceptualize the whole area.

Yeah, I'm very interesting by this. I'm especially curious if the slowness of being in one of these stances will just prove too annoying.

Valezra posted the first full mod-9-aimed Hate Tank that I can remember, and I like his build quite a lot -- especially the huge saves. Mine is rather different, with some clear disadvantages but also a lot more DPS, permanent DR 7, and WF immunities. I was also working with Kaleos on a Paladin/Ranger/Monk Halfling Hate Tank, but we weren't actually able to generate enough Hate! That experience suggests to me that making Hate tanks is somewhat difficult, and that a lot of people are going to merrily start down the path of a hate tank only to realize they can't actually out-hate the top DPS builds! (Heck, if made any mistakes, I may soon be one of them!!)

Perhaps the thing that intrigues me most is that the changes coming in Mod 9 seem to me to completely fail to make S&B more attractive. It's still possible to achieve equally good defenses and far better DPS as a Monk-splash TWF, and I actually think that even with the +200% hate of either Defender III line it's going to be tough for a S&B tank build to hold aggro. (Doable, I suspect, but requiring careful attention to it.) Grazing blows will make DR *much* more attractive, and it is my prediction that power-gamers will go for DR rather than gimping their DPS with a tower shield. But I've been wrong before!

That reminds me, I gotta go farm up some more Bloodrage Symbionts before Dungeon Alerts makes that a LOT harder... :)

[Depravity]

Yeah, I'm very interesting by this. I'm especially curious if the slowness of being in one of these stances will just prove too annoying.

I seem to remember reading that tumble worked while in stance. If that could be confirmed by someone in beta, it may be worth dropping a few points into tumble for sake of movement.

Also, since you're going DT docent, if you get the protection +5 from somewhere else, there's the chance of an exception stat +1 on your armor. May be able to squeeze in a point from elsewhere and get that extra AC/reflex (+3 tome?). Still a sacrifice, but a (possibly) less painful one.

[cforce]

Perhaps the thing that intrigues me most is that the changes coming in Mod 9 seem to me to completely fail to make S&B more attractive. It's still possible to achieve equally good defenses and far better DPS as a Monk-splash TWF...

Warning: S&B bias ahead!

I'd disagree here, but maybe it's just my S&B tank bias talking! But, consider that the high-point of what was observed for Grazing Hit damage was ~17/hit from high-level Orthons.

DR 7 and a Shield Spell: 17 * 0.9 = 15.3, -7 for DR is ~8.3 per hit.
DR 7 and a Tower Shield: 17 * 0.5 = 8.5, -7 for DR is ~1.5 per hit.

On Normal, I don't imagine the occasional 8.3 vs. 1.5 on a 19 will make a big difference. On *elite*, 8.3 vs. 1.5 on ~50% of attacks should add up fast.

I think TWF tanking fares pretty well, but I think S&B tanking has more absolute upside on Elite than TWF tanking.

(Note: I'm using the 'tank = defense' definition, not the 'tank = melee' definition of tank, here!)

[Thanimal]

I seem to remember reading that tumble worked while in stance. If that could be confirmed by someone in beta, it may be worth dropping a few points into tumble for sake of movement.

Also, since you're going DT docent, if you get the protection +5 from somewhere else, there's the chance of an exception stat +1 on your armor. May be able to squeeze in a point from elsewhere and get that extra AC/reflex (+3 tome?). Still a sacrifice, but a (possibly) less painful one.

Excellent points. Finding a +3 tome for one stat is "surely" doable eventually, so both of the above seem like great suggestions. Eventually I'll try to incorporate them into the OP.

[Thanimal]

For reference, gfunk helped me out with the DPS, and it seems my Hate generation claims are verified.

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2302994&postcount=166

[Thanimal]

Warning: S&B bias ahead!

I'd disagree here, but maybe it's just my S&B tank bias talking! But, consider that the high-point of what was observed for Grazing Hit damage was ~17/hit from high-level Orthons.

DR 7 and a Shield Spell: 17 * 0.9 = 15.3, -7 for DR is ~8.3 per hit.
DR 7 and a Tower Shield: 17 * 0.5 = 8.5, -7 for DR is ~1.5 per hit.

On Normal, I don't imagine the occasional 8.3 vs. 1.5 on a 19 will make a big difference. On *elite*, 8.3 vs. 1.5 on ~50% of attacks should add up fast.

I think TWF tanking fares pretty well, but I think S&B tanking has more absolute upside on Elite than TWF tanking.

(Note: I'm using the 'tank = defense' definition, not the 'tank = melee' definition of tank, here!)

Warning: anti-S&B bias ahead! :)

cforce and I have had a little bit of this discussion over email and/or voice, and it's interesting that we haven't come to an agreement about it. My feeling remains that 8.3 per hit into a 400 hit point bar comes under "healer can trivially keep you up." If your healer can't react faster than once per 96 swings aimed at you (half of those hit for 8.3 so that's 398 aimed your way), then you have no business facing Elite Orthons in the first place.

In exchange, the S&B character gives up half of its DPS (theoretically it could be more than half since Tempest is not available to S&B). That's a LOT. And that's always the case, not just against certain guys who have unusually powerful grazing hits. Also a TWF Hate Tank has far greater versatility if the party contains another tank, as he can just flip on PA to be a passable DPS. (According to gfunk's numbers, this build flipping on PA actually beats quite a lot of "DPS builds" -- though certainly not the best ones.)

So while I agree the changes make S&B tanking *more* attractive, I am not convinced it is attractive enough for an optimizing player to choose.

All that said, if two optimizing players disagree about that, that might be a sign of very good balance!!

[cforce]

My feeling remains that 8.3 per hit into a 400 hit point bar comes under "healer can trivially keep you up." If your healer can't react faster than once per 96 swings aimed at you (half of those hit for 8.3 so that's 398 aimed your way), then you have no business facing Elite Orthons in the first place.

Weeeell, be careful with that line of reasoning, though. I don't really think of "can the Cleric keep up" as the right bar. When it comes down to it, most good Clerics can keep up with a 10 AC Barbarian taking aggro. That doesn't mean it won't put a bigger, barbarian-sized dent in their Heal Scroll stack.

I'll admit, this difference may be getting into 'wawg'* territory, but the guy taking 50 points of damage on a 20, and 8.3 on a 10-19, is taking 133/65 ~= 2x as much incoming damage as the guy averaging 1.5 on a 10-19. In current game terms, this is equivalent to tanking with someone who gets hit on a 19-20 vs. someone who gets hit only on a 20. Both are solid defenses, but there *is* a definite difference in how much resources the Cleric will have to expend along the way.

* -- 'WAWG' is a bit of an 'inside reference', and stands for "Wins Already Won Games". It's a handy one -- I think I'll start a different thread to explain it, so as not to derail this one.

[Thanimal]

Weeeell, be careful with that line of reasoning, though. I don't really think of "can the Cleric keep up" as the right bar. When it comes down to it, most good Clerics can keep up with a 10 AC Barbarian taking aggro. That doesn't mean it won't put a bigger, barbarian-sized dent in their Heal Scroll stack.

I'll admit, this difference may be getting into 'wawg'* territory, but the guy taking 50 points of damage on a 20, and 8.3 on a 10-19, is taking 133/65 ~= 2x as much incoming damage as the guy averaging 1.5 on a 10-19. In current game terms, this is equivalent to tanking with someone who gets hit on a 19-20 vs. someone who gets hit only on a 20. Both are solid defenses, but there *is* a definite difference in how much resources the Cleric will have to expend along the way.

* -- 'WAWG' is a bit of an 'inside reference', and stands for "Wins Already Won Games". It's a handy one -- I think I'll start a different thread to explain it, so as not to derail this one.

Quite true. But the other side of this is that the TWF build's significantly higher DPS means that all of the fights in the quest last for a shorter time, and therefore that everyone expends fewer resources. This is particularly significant if the boss has AoE attacks such that everyone is taking damage even while you hold aggro, but in any case it can mean the healer(s) have more spell points entering the boss fight and/or spend less during the fight.

Of course, I already know I'm not convincing you! But it seems potentially useful to others to (re)air our argument here on the forums.

[Depravity]

DR 7 and a Shield Spell: 17 * 0.9 = 15.3, -7 for DR is ~8.3 per hit.
DR 7 and a Tower Shield: 17 * 0.5 = 8.5, -7 for DR is ~1.5 per hit.


Did they change the calc on grazing? I seem to remember it being (damage - dr) * .5 (for being a player character) * shield reduction

That would make the calc:
(17-7) * .5 *.9 ~= 4.5/graze
(17-7) * .5 *.5 ~= 2.5/graze

Sorry to throw the monkey wrench in there, cforce.

[cforce]

Did they change the calc on grazing? I seem to remember it being (damage - dr) * .5 (for being a player character) * shield reduction

That would make the calc:
(17-7) * .5 *.9 ~= 4.5/graze
(17-7) * .5 *.5 ~= 2.5/graze

Sorry to throw the monkey wrench in there, cforce.

That is certainly what Eladrin posted, but the actual observed behavior on the Beta server contradicts it (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=189306) -- based on observed data, it appears DR applies last.

(No official answer on whether or not that's intended, but I'm going to go with observed behavior until a dev says it will be modified.)

[Thanimal]

That is certainly what Eladrin posted, but the actual observed behavior on the Beta server contradicts it (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=189306) -- based on observed data, it appears DR applies last.

(No official answer on whether or not that's intended, but I'm going to go with observed behavior until a dev says it will be modified.)

In addition, the 17 from Orthons is *after* the 50% for being a player-character, correct? So if DR is actually applied first, then the numbers would be::

Shield spell: (34 - 7) * .5 * .9 = 12.15
Actual tower shield: (34 - 7) * .5 * .5 = 6.75

Significantly worse for both builds, but doesn't seem to make the comparison any clearer. While 12 per graze is quite a lot, now both options are into "not quite negligible" territory, the *practical* advantage of 7ish vs. 12ish may or may not feel significantly different in a raid party.

[Depravity]

That is certainly what Eladrin posted, but the actual observed behavior on the Beta server contradicts it (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=189306) -- based on observed data, it appears DR applies last.

(No official answer on whether or not that's intended, but I'm going to go with observed behavior until a dev says it will be modified.)

That's good news - makes DR more useful than I was thinking it was going to end up, since a point of DR was going to translate into anwyhere from half a point (no shield) down to 1/4 of a point (tower) of "actual" DR on a grazing hit.

[cforce]

Quite true. But the other side of this is that the TWF build's significantly higher DPS means that all of the fights in the quest last for a shorter time...

True, but a *marginally* shorter time.

Let's say that the TWF tank does double the effective damage of a S&B character that has also concerned himself with DPS. (That's probably slightly generous, but it'll do as an approximation.) And let's say that the rest of the party is pretty gimped, and only average the damage output of the S&B character, also.

In this case, the party-damage differential between the two builds is 7/6, which makes fights finish in ~85% of the time as the party with the S&B character. Discounting AoE temporarily, 2x * 0.85 is still 1.7x, a significant increase in incoming damage, and healing resources required.

In a less conservative case, if there are actually some decent DPS builds in the party, and the average damage output is closer to the TWF tank, the party-damage differential shrinks to 12/11, for 1.8x incoming damage.

In fact, discounting AoE's, the rest of the party has to be contributing nearly NO damage to get anywhere close to incoming damage parity!

Now, let's say that the boss *does* have significant AoE splash damage that's hitting the rest of the party. In those cases, the S&B character shouldn't be using S&B anymore, anyway: the Clerics are using mass cures, and maintaining aggro doesn't have any value. When I bring my S&B tank into Part 4/5 of the Shroud, I'm turning off CE, turning on PA, and whipping out my highest-DPS Greataxe.

[Thanimal]

True, but a *marginally* shorter time.

<snip>

In a less conservative case, if there are actually some decent DPS builds in the party, and the average damage output is closer to the TWF tank, the party-damage differential shrinks to 12/11, for 1.8x incoming damage.


I agree, but interpret this situation differently. I see this as 12 characters getting the benefit of the shorter battle. So in some sense that marginal difference is multiplied by 12. It's probably not really fair to say that Barbarians benefit from a shorter battle in the same way that Clerics do, but I think it's fair to say that everyone does benefit. Also, I'm a huge believer that time itself is of great value, because eventually 1s get rolled. In my experience, longer battles get exponentially harrier than shorter ones, because of cascading failure.

None of this is really quantifiable, and that's obviously why we continue to disagree. Both of us can do math so when the numbers tell a clear story any debate between us is over! This one isn't a clear story and will probably be settled more by players' feel than anything else. In a few months we'll have to double back and see which of our predictions came closer to matching player-base behavior. (Of course, we'll never know who was "right," since players aren't necessarily optimal.)

EDIT: One thing that may be quantifiable is that 12/11 * the DPS rate means completing the quest in less time, and therefore that XP/time is increased. At the limit, a quest that was 100% killing would get +9% xp/time. Realistically less, but possibly not negligible.

[cforce]

It's probably not really fair to say that Barbarians benefit from a shorter battle in the same way that Clerics do, but I think it's fair to say that everyone does benefit.

Well, true -- which means the devil is the subjective details. When talking about expendable resources, the #1 "uh-oh, we're hosed" indicator is often:

"Uh-oh, our Cleric is out of SP."

A distant second is,

"Uh-oh, the Sorc/Wiz is out of SP."

After that, all other expendable resource problems are very far off.

"Uh-oh, the barb is out of Rages?"
"Uh-oh, the fighter is out of haste boosts?"

These problems seem orders of magnitude less severe, to me...

[Thanimal]

Well, true -- which means the devil is the subjective details. When talking about expendable resources, the #1 "uh-oh, we're hosed" indicator is often:

"Uh-oh, our Cleric is out of SP."

A distant second is,

"Uh-oh, the Sorc/Wiz is out of SP."

After that, all other expendable resource problems are very far off.

"Uh-oh, the barb is out of Rages?"
"Uh-oh, the fighter is out of haste boosts?"

These problems seem orders of magnitude less severe, to me...

I'm thinking more like Uh Oh the Barb is Dominated and the Fighter and Cleric are Held (silly fleshies! but Mass Hold is coming, right?). Having 11/12 the chance of failing a critical save makes me happy.

Certainly, a Held Cleric is a bahzillion times worse than one who is out of spell points, because Heal is pretty effective off a scroll.

But it is indeed awfully subjective.

[Depravity]

I'm thinking more like Uh Oh the Barb is Dominated and the Fighter and Cleric are Held (silly fleshies! but Mass Hold is coming, right?). Having 11/12 the chance of failing a critical save makes me happy.


This is what WF rogues with slippery mind are for. Not to worry, my big stick bot has your back. :)

[Thanimal]

this Is What Wf Rogues With Slippery Mind Are For. Not To Worry, My Big Stick Bot Has Your Back. :)

Sweet!

[Thanimal]

So I actualy rolled this up (with 14 STR since I can't be bothered with favor and still don't have 32 point builds!). It'll be a long while before I get to the point where the core concept comes together (roughly level 10), but I can definitely say right away that this build is quite a power-leveler! With DR 3, good AC (with a Sheild clickie), Anger Boots, and Ranger Sprint Boost, this guy can zerg low-level content like a madman!

Well, until Aug 4th anyhow...

It's incredibly ironic that I didn't really care about Dungeon Alerts stopping zerging back when it was announced, but now I've got a build whose leveling is going to be significantly slower without it. Unlucky!

Anyhow, this build seems great through level 4... (Yeah, I know that means absolutely nothing.)

[Thanimal]

Dinged 5. Finally have a Fighter level. Fighter Haste Boost is gooood. Loving this build so far. Already can hold a lot of hate aggro just from fist DPS and WF Brute Fighting. Intimidate not useful yet -- need a few more Fighter levels to catch that up. Kinda hoping to get close to 10 before Mod 9 hits, so I'll be able to grab Defender I ASAP.

[Thanimal]

Dinged 6. This build is a fast leveler -- a player with more time and experience could probably cap it in a hurry.

Inspired by Monkey_Archers AC breakdown on his hate tank, I've realize that a Holy Lightning Strike Khopesh might be a very good call here. Although the Lightning damage is pretty unreliable, over the long haul it averages only a little less than the Burst and Blast effects. In exchange, this can be built to have a total of +3 exceptional DEX. Combined that with a +3 Dex tome and it's a whopping 4 more points of DEX than I estimated in my original post.

That pushes the raid-buffed sustainable AC from 78 (Shield clickie is not sustainable because it turns off CE -- unacceptable even briefly when full-on tanking) to 80. It also pushes the Reflex save to a slightly more satisfying 31.

Seems like the plan?

The other thing I've realized is that dual-wielding Kamas in Wind Stance actually give me another TWO points of AC (one from Monk centered bonus and one for Wind stance's +2 Dex). It's unclear how often it would be worthwhile to eat a significant DPS hit for +2 AC/+1 Reflex, but perhaps a very wealthy powergamer would make two beatdown Khopeshes and then a pair of Kamas designed for peak possible AC, in which case raid-buffed sustainable AC is 82.

AND it's just been pointed out to me that the new rings will likely allow another +3 exceptional on another stat. Combine that with a +3 Wisdom tome and that's another two points of AC. So it seems an uber powergamer can take this build to a special-situation-but-sustainable 84 (and I mean at level 16). Not much gonna hit that I think.

[Thanimal]

Minor note: Just added in the Minos Hat. Turns out I've been forgetting that in all my build posts this month!

It actually makes the HP situation a little nicer, with a nicely geared Hate Monster at 16 being well clear of the 400 hit point "bar" for tanking.

Been having a blast playing this guy. Definitely recommend giving it a shot.

[Thanimal]

Dinged 7. Now Fighter 3/Ranger 2/Monk 2. Although my progress is super-slow compared to a power-gamer, this guy has advanced quite quickly relative to my pace. Really enjoying this build. Survivability is good (as expected) and DPS is better than expected. Tending to lead PUGs in kills, for whatever that is worth.

An amusing (if not really that impressive) demonstration of survivability was a (solo) pure zerg run of WW Elite as a 7. Pretty fun to sprint around ignoring fleets of melee kobolds (AC and DR), blitzing headlong through traps and laughing at Lightning Bolts (go go gadget Evasion). Ranger Sprint Boost for extra fun. Personally I've never had a build who was more Zerg-capable. Too bad Dungeon Alerts will end that...

At 7, after my first 3 Fighter levels, Intimidate ranks have finally caught up, and I'm definitely liking the combination of Intim and Hate. I only have marginal Hate bonus so far, but at this early level my DPS is near to the top anyhow, so I can usually hold Hate aggro. And it does seem that I want all aggro on me nearly all the time, although certainly a pure tank could be more suitable and I'd fall back to "durable DPS."

Big problem now is: I'm liking this build so much that I actually am going to have to find a +2 INT Tome...

[Thanimal]

Depravity is now an official Friend of the Build! :)

Thanks man!

I'm not sure I should reveal exactly how he helped out lest others try to abuse his generosity. But suffice it to say DEPRAVITY ROCKS!!

In other news, I've added some details to the original post for even uberer equipment and how things may look at 20.

[Thanimal]

Heheh. Somebody just rated this thread as "Terrible" (that's what it says next to 1 star). Not sure exactly why I'm pointing this out.

[Depravity]

Depravity is now an official Friend of the Build! :)

Thanks man!

I'm not sure I should reveal exactly how he helped out lest others try to abuse his generosity. But suffice it to say DEPRAVITY ROCKS!!

In other news, I've added some details to the original post for even uberer equipment and how things may look at 20.

Dammit, there goes my curmudgeon status. Should have demanded anonymity. :p

[Thanimal]

Btw, this guy dinged 8 a while back, getting Improved TWF, and he currently feels like a full-fledge DPS build, in addition to being a full tank with good AC, saves, Evasion, HP, and DR. Still feels like a sick build.

But I've been hugely slowed by a combination of real life and disillusionment with dungeon scaling. I'm sure I'll get used to it eventually, and just recalibrate, but running around Sorrowdusk 2-shotting ogres and trolls with an only semi-twinked level 8 just feels idiotic.

I think next I'll try to solo the entire Co6 chain. So far Grey Moon and the first few parts of Co6 were a joke, but perhaps soloing level 10 content with a level 8 will provide an interesting challenge. If not, I guess it'll be time to pretend Normal doesn't exist (just as I already pretend Solo doesn't exist) and do everything on Hard. Perhaps that was what Turbine "intended" for veteran players, now that I think about it. Maybe Normal is Training Mode now.

But regardless, it's hard for me to see why I should add anyone to my party, other than social interaction. Soloing seems so easy that I can't imagine I'd beat the XP/time by adding more people, unless those folks were top Power Gamers -- but then why in the world would they want me in their party??

[Yajerman01]

Btw, this guy dinged 8 a while back, getting Improved TWF, and he currently feels like a full-fledge DPS build, in addition to being a full tank with good AC, saves, Evasion, HP, and DR. Still feels like a sick build.

But I've been hugely slowed by a combination of real life and disillusionment with dungeon scaling. I'm sure I'll get used to it eventually, and just recalibrate, but running around Sorrowdusk 2-shotting ogres and trolls with an only semi-twinked level 8 just feels idiotic.

I think next I'll try to solo the entire Co6 chain. So far Grey Moon and the first few parts of Co6 were a joke, but perhaps soloing level 10 content with a level 8 will provide an interesting challenge. If not, I guess it'll be time to pretend Normal doesn't exist (just as I already pretend Solo doesn't exist) and do everything on Hard. Perhaps that was what Turbine "intended" for veteran players, now that I think about it. Maybe Normal is Training Mode now.

But regardless, it's hard for me to see why I should add anyone to my party, other than social interaction. Soloing seems so easy that I can't imagine I'd beat the XP/time by adding more people, unless those folks were top Power Gamers -- but then why in the world would they want me in their party??


Was building a similar build and everyone kept asking if I was making the "Monster", lol! I finally took a look on the boards and low behold here you are!

I went a slightly different route in leveling, Currently, he is 6/1/1 Ranger/monk/fighter,but I AM having a blast with this build. I am close to level 9 and ready to put on my Chaos Guards, but alas, My AC is not that high right now (30), regardless though, I do not get into too much trouble as I went with duel weilding Khopeshes and am pretty much Pwning most of your typical Gwylan/SC/Deleras stuff. Time to move onto CO6 and VONS/Desert stuff.

I am going to go back and look over your build to see if I can glean anything else for my build, but I think this Kensai II/Tempest I/evasion build is pretty sweet. And Love saving money on poison pots! whoot!

[Thanimal]

am going to go back and look over your build to see if I can glean anything else for my build, but I think this Kensai II/Tempest I/evasion build is pretty sweet. And Love saving money on poison pots! whoot!

Glad to hear you're enjoying it, but Kensai/Tempest/Monk is The Monster (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=172630), after which my build is named. The Monster is arguably the king of DPS builds, though there are more and more candidates these days. The Hate Monster has decent DPS, but not close to the Monster, and is a tank in the form of Stalwart/Tempest/Monk.

[rezo]

So far so good, I'm really having fun with this build. I do have a "Monster" build but, I think this will be my favorite.

[Thanimal]

So far so good, I'm really having fun with this build. I do have a "Monster" build but, I think this will be my favorite.

SWEET! I'm almost out of the game at the moment (except forum lurking!), so even though Vehemuth instantly became my main character, he's effectively parked at 8. Where are you now? Any specific good or bad points becoming obvious?

[Absolute-Omniscience]

Any specific good or bad points becoming obvious?

I'd say from my experience in ToD, hate tanking is not possible if you want to maintain low cost runs, or even managable runs on hard / elite.

To me it seems that they wanted to make hate tanking viable in mod 9, but with the tod raid and his damage you really must have shield blocking DR.

His to hit is far too high for any build to resonably avoid most of em, and as he hits for 120+ on elite, ~2 times a second when he start swinging, you really must have good dr.
(He hits 90 ac on <5 on hard, elite he hits 90 ac on every blow)

This is a good thing, and a bad thing. Good because Sword & Board is now a lot more viable. But also bad because it forces a sword & board player to the group on hard / elite setting. Though I am sure it is managable without one.

Hell, even on normal you need 70+ ac for the runs to be low-cost. I've done a couple of runs with dps tanks at around 60 ac, it wasn't all too hard, but the cost was as high as15 major potions and my 2,8k sp bar. And that was with our "regular" group that we usually beats it with 0 sp potions if we have a high AC sword & Board Tank.

Bottom line, hate tanking is good and viable for all content except tod hard / elite in my eyes.

[Thanimal]

I'd say from my experience in ToD, hate tanking is not possible if you want to maintain low cost runs, or even managable runs on hard / elite.

To me it seems that they wanted to make hate tanking viable in mod 9, but with the tod raid and his damage you really must have shield blocking DR.

His to hit is far too high for any build to resonably avoid most of em, and as he hits for 120+ on elite, ~2 times a second when he start swinging, you really must have good dr.
(He hits 90 ac on <5 on hard, elite he hits 90 ac on every blow)

This is a good thing, and a bad thing. Good because Sword & Board is now a lot more viable. But also bad because it forces a sword & board player to the group on hard / elite setting. Though I am sure it is managable without one.

Hell, even on normal you need 70+ ac for the runs to be low-cost. I've done a couple of runs with dps tanks at around 60 ac, it wasn't all too hard, but the cost was as high as15 major potions and my 2,8k sp bar. And that was with our "regular" group that we usually beats it with 0 sp potions if we have a high AC sword & Board Tank.

Bottom line, hate tanking is good and viable for all content except tod hard / elite in my eyes.

VERY interesting. Thanks for the detailed report. Of course, Hate Monster does know how to use a Tower Shield, and has 7 innate DR, so I wonder if perhaps this build can be equipped somehow to work for ToD tank?? (I'm clueless about DR because it's never been something people seemed very interested in until now.)

No worries if not. The build has plenty of other things to do. Today I amused myself my soloing Co6 as a level 8. Think they went a little too far with that scaling stuff... :)

[Thanimal]

Well, I'm sorta getting back into the game now, and I dinged 9 yesterday. All I have to say about level 8 is:

Dungeon Scaling is ridiculous. I'm fine with there being a "don't know what I'm doing" difficulty level -- I'll use it when I don't know what I'm doing in a given quest!! I'm not fine with being able to solo Cult of the Six with a modestly-twinked (e.g. no Haste clickie or potions) level 8 on Normal.

But where things really got funny was when I went back to do Splinterskull because I realized I didn't have a Visor to help out against those Cultists. (I later realized I didn't need one to solo those boneheads, but oh well.) Splinterskull is now retardedly easy. Eventually I realized that Yellow Alert was the only reason to pay any attention to the "monsters." And even it wasn't a compelling enough reason in some cases. 28 minutes to solo the entire series -- and remember that's with no Haste clickies/Potions. I bet an experienced zerger can do it under 20. (Gauntlet thrown down! Although I'm not sure how to offer proof on that feat.)

So any, back on topic: Love this build. But it's hard to tell if it's actually good or they just dumbed the game down so much that an 8-STR Cleric swinging a wet noodle would do well...

Level 9 will mean I now *look* like The Monster -- dual Khopesh. This could cause confusion in a group, but why would I join a group? . . . AC getting decent, but 10 is where I really become a true tank. DPS should increase noticeably here, which is exciting because it's already quite good.

[Thanimal]

I'd say from my experience in ToD, hate tanking is not possible if you want to maintain low cost runs, or even managable runs on hard / elite.

To me it seems that they wanted to make hate tanking viable in mod 9, but with the tod raid and his damage you really must have shield blocking DR.

His to hit is far too high for any build to resonably avoid most of em, and as he hits for 120+ on elite, ~2 times a second when he start swinging, you really must have good dr.
(He hits 90 ac on <5 on hard, elite he hits 90 ac on every blow)

This is a good thing, and a bad thing. Good because Sword & Board is now a lot more viable. But also bad because it forces a sword & board player to the group on hard / elite setting. Though I am sure it is managable without one.

Hell, even on normal you need 70+ ac for the runs to be low-cost. I've done a couple of runs with dps tanks at around 60 ac, it wasn't all too hard, but the cost was as high as15 major potions and my 2,8k sp bar. And that was with our "regular" group that we usually beats it with 0 sp potions if we have a high AC sword & Board Tank.

Bottom line, hate tanking is good and viable for all content except tod hard / elite in my eyes.

So what exactly would I need to do to be able to tank in this situation? (I'm not assuming that I can, but might as well see if there is a way to do it.)

Firstly, it seems I need more HP. That's quite doable, and I already added some notes to the OP about that. Indeed, since my AC becomes completely useless, I can Rage up (along with the mods now described in the OP) and get over 600.

Next, what kind of DR do I need? Obviously I can equip a Tower Shield (reduces my AC but who cares since it wasn't 90 anyhow). I have 7 innate DR, but I'm not certain that stacks with anything relevant in this situation. Then I have Stalwart II, which is adding on DR when I take up a Tower Shield. Can somebody help me out here with how much DR is needed and how a "traditional" tank gets there?

Finally, how do I keep him interested? Is a ridiculous Intim score needed? Or can I fight S&B and build up a little aggro lead (with full Hate on of course) before others engage?

[maddmatt70]

I'd say from my experience in ToD, hate tanking is not possible if you want to maintain low cost runs, or even managable runs on hard / elite.

To me it seems that they wanted to make hate tanking viable in mod 9, but with the tod raid and his damage you really must have shield blocking DR.

His to hit is far too high for any build to resonably avoid most of em, and as he hits for 120+ on elite, ~2 times a second when he start swinging, you really must have good dr.
(He hits 90 ac on <5 on hard, elite he hits 90 ac on every blow)

This is a good thing, and a bad thing. Good because Sword & Board is now a lot more viable. But also bad because it forces a sword & board player to the group on hard / elite setting. Though I am sure it is managable without one.

Hell, even on normal you need 70+ ac for the runs to be low-cost. I've done a couple of runs with dps tanks at around 60 ac, it wasn't all too hard, but the cost was as high as15 major potions and my 2,8k sp bar. And that was with our "regular" group that we usually beats it with 0 sp potions if we have a high AC sword & Board Tank.

Bottom line, hate tanking is good and viable for all content except tod hard / elite in my eyes.

Alot of his damage comes from his badges though so although DR helps the majority of the damage he does you can not mitigate or prevent and there is always the disintegrate effect which can kill a melee that does not have the hp. Ac does not seem important on hard/elite what is important is hit points. I am disappointed with the way the devs designed the tanking on part 3. I feel it should not emphasize hit points so much.

The best way to reduce costs is to have more tanks with the boots. We always have at least 2 melee with the boots. We are getting close to where we will have 3 melee with the boots on every run and eventually 4 melee with the boots. As long as one of those melee has alot of hit points it is pretty straightforward.

[Absolute-Omniscience]

Alot of his damage comes from his badges though so although DR helps the majority of the damage he does you can not mitigate or prevent and there is always the disintegrate effect which can kill a melee that does not have the hp. Ac does not seem important on hard/elite what is important is hit points. I am disappointed with the way the devs designed the tanking on part 3. I feel it should not emphasize hit points so much.

The best way to reduce costs is to have more tanks with the boots. We always have at least 2 melee with the boots. We are getting close to where we will have 3 melee with the boots on every run and eventually 4 melee with the boots. As long as one of those melee has alot of hit points it is pretty straightforward.

Actually, from my experience on hard / elite the emphasize is on DR, not hp. Well hp as well obviously, but 40+ dr is what really helps (meaning blocking with towershield).

Don't know how you do it, but if more boots reduce the cost for you I imagine you only put "booters" on the boss? For us we put everyone but a caster and a kiter on the boss, so more boots wouldn't really lower the cost for us. Though it would give us more loot. :D

It would obviously work without DR, if you have 500+ hp, but the SP potion cost difference is quite significant.

[Thanimal]

Actually, from my experience on hard / elite the emphasize is on DR, not hp. Well hp as well obviously, but 40+ dr is what really helps (meaning blocking with towershield).


Ok, so I'm looking for some details on this. How exactly does someone get 40+ DR? I can't think of any special reason why this build's DR potential is any worse than any other Stalwart II (and therefore the second best potential behind Stalwart III). BUT I basically have no idea what I'm talking about, because I have no clue how ANY build can get 40+ DR.

If indeed this build can reach the needed DR (and there is some way to hold his aggro), then Hate Monster seems suitable to tanking in this spot. If not, then the build will have to go to DPS mode, which is also OK, but I'd love to know either role is possible.

[Absolute-Omniscience]

Ok, so I'm looking for some details on this. How exactly does someone get 40+ DR? I can't think of any special reason why this build's DR potential is any worse than any other Stalwart II (and therefore the second best potential behind Stalwart III). BUT I basically have no idea what I'm talking about, because I have no clue how ANY build can get 40+ DR.

If indeed this build can reach the needed DR (and there is some way to hold his aggro), then Hate Monster seems suitable to tanking in this spot. If not, then the build will have to go to DPS mode, which is also OK, but I'd love to know either role is possible.

Replace 40+ dr with 30+ dr, typo. :D

but DR:
3 Shield Mastery
3 Improved Shield Mastery
12 (BAB/2)+2
15 Leviks Defender
10 Stoneskin (or more resonably, 5 with warchanter song)
--------------------
43
6 Dwarven Shield Mastery III
6 Defender III
--------------------
55
10 Docent of defiance (doesn't stack with stoneskin above)
-6 dwarven shield mastery
--------------------
59
10 Titan DR clicky (doesn't stack with DoD)
--------------------
69

Supposedly the 6 dr /- you get from defender passivly also stacks with this, but haven't tested it myself, so wont add it.

You wont be able to hold aggro with shieldblocking, you'll have to rely on very high hp (really, 500+-600+ preferably on hard/elite) or just take the dps spot. It's not like hard / elite is commonly run anyways.

[Thanimal]

Replace 40+ dr with 30+ dr, typo. :D

but DR:
3 Shield Mastery
3 Improved Shield Mastery
12 (BAB/2)+2
15 Leviks Defender
10 Stoneskin (or more resonably, 5 with warchanter song)
--------------------
43
6 Dwarven Shield Mastery III
6 Defender III
--------------------
55
10 Docent of defiance (doesn't stack with stoneskin above)
-6 dwarven shield mastery
--------------------
59
10 Titan DR clicky (doesn't stack with DoD)
--------------------
69

Supposedly the 6 dr /- you get from defender passivly also stacks with this, but haven't tested it myself, so wont add it.

You wont be able to hold aggro with shieldblocking, you'll have to rely on very high hp (really, 500+-600+ preferably on hard/elite) or just take the dps spot. It's not like hard / elite is commonly run anyways.

OK, I'm sorta starting to understand. I think HM's target shield-blocking DR would be:

11 from BAB
4 from Stalwart blocking
(0 from Stalwart passive since doesn't stack with WF DR)
7 WF DR
15 Levik's Shield
---
36 all the time

+13 when Docent of Defiance fires
---
49 some of the time

So that sorta works.

But then you say can't hold his aggro. Why not? (Serious question, not a subtle attempt to say I am awesome, even though I am...)

This inspired me to figure out optimally equipped Intim score:

23 ranks
+19 item (theoretically should exist?)
+3 CHA (6 base + 6 item + 4 Tome = 16)
+6 Shroud CHA skilz item
+4 GH
+2 luck (head)
+6 enhancements (2 Fighter enh are prereqs to Stalwart II and Stalwart II grants +4)
+2 Bard Song (hopefully available if tanking the game's hardest raid on Elite!)
---
75

With some build changes if they would help:
+3 SF: Intim
+2 Bullheaded
+1 Monk enhancement
---
81

Anybody know what the mark is? 75 could be 20 points short for all I know, but it sorta looks like a big number... :)

[maddmatt70]

Actually, from my experience on hard / elite the emphasize is on DR, not hp. Well hp as well obviously, but 40+ dr is what really helps (meaning blocking with towershield).

Don't know how you do it, but if more boots reduce the cost for you I imagine you only put "booters" on the boss? For us we put everyone but a caster and a kiter on the boss, so more boots wouldn't really lower the cost for us. Though it would give us more loot. :D

It would obviously work without DR, if you have 500+ hp, but the SP potion cost difference is quite significant.

Correct we only put booters on the boss. I do not really like risking people for banishment. Yes, I have heard people try to figure out when he banishes and step out as a group when not main tanking, but that seems imprecise. I find it odd you go through so many resources. We go through resources too, but the more booters we have the less resources we go through. If we had 6-7 melee on the boss we would go through 0 resources other then scrolls I would guess.

I am trying to figure out why you guys use alot of resources. Let's see we have 2 healers usually healing the main tank. We debuff him, etc. My guess is actually if you had a higher hit point melee you have more cushion and perhaps you could turn off more metamagics.

[totmacher]

HPS aren't that great for ToD. makes the margins way too close. no way

[Absolute-Omniscience]

But then you say can't hold his aggro. Why not? (Serious question, not a subtle attempt to say I am awesome, even though I am...)

This inspired me to figure out optimally equipped Intim score:

23 ranks
+19 item (theoretically should exist?)
+3 CHA (6 base + 6 item + 4 Tome = 16)
+6 Shroud CHA skilz item
+4 GH
+2 luck (head)
+6 enhancements (2 Fighter enh are prereqs to Stalwart II and Stalwart II grants +4)
+2 Bard Song (hopefully available if tanking the game's hardest raid on Elite!)
---
75

With some build changes if they would help:
+3 SF: Intim
+2 Bullheaded
+1 Monk enhancement
---
81

Anybody know what the mark is? 75 could be 20 points short for all I know, but it sorta looks like a big number... :)

Ah, you didn't have an intimidate braekdown on the OP, and couldn't be arsed to check feats etc. That will be enough though, for normal you need 61 on suceed on a 1, and I imagine elite is somewhere around 70-75.



Correct we only put booters on the boss. I do not really like risking people for banishment. Yes, I have heard people try to figure out when he banishes and step out as a group when not main tanking, but that seems imprecise. I find it odd you go through so many resources. We go through resources too, but the more booters we have the less resources we go through. If we had 6-7 melee on the boss we would go through 0 resources other then scrolls I would guess.

I am trying to figure out why you guys use alot of resources. Let's see we have 2 healers usually healing the main tank. We debuff him, etc. My guess is actually if you had a higher hit point melee you have more cushion and perhaps you could turn off more metamagics.

Well, on normal with intimidate tank we use 0 resources, hell I usually have ~1k-1,5k SP left on my FS if we 2-healer it.
Though with dps tank the cost is really high, usually around ~20 majors spread on 2-3 healers.

As for boots, I would never go melee without em, but then again I've had my boots since day 2 of mod 9 with my main melee character - the only melee I play with. But it's the group members choice, really.
We usually have 0-2 banishments in our runs on normal, and the fight lasts ~2 minutes or so when we play with our "main group".

[Absolute-Omniscience]

HPS aren't that great for ToD. makes the margins way too close. no way

500 hp is enough, really. We did it elite with our tank at arund 450. And or dps-tank runs the tank usually have ~400-500 hp.

On elite, throw a rage on that, and a Yugoloth potions = 560 hp.

[maddmatt70]

Ah, you didn't have an intimidate braekdown on the OP, and couldn't be arsed to check feats etc. That will be enough though, for normal you need 61 on suceed on a 1, and I imagine elite is somewhere around 70-75.


Well, on normal with intimidate tank we use 0 resources, hell I usually have ~1k-1,5k SP left on my FS if we 2-healer it.
Though with dps tank the cost is really high, usually around ~20 majors spread on 2-3 healers.

As for boots, I would never go melee without em, but then again I've had my boots since day 2 of mod 9 with my main melee character - the only melee I play with. But it's the group members choice, really.
We usually have 0-2 banishments in our runs on normal, and the fight lasts ~2 minutes or so when we play with our "main group".

Yes on normal we usually use scrolls but little to no mana pots. On hard or elite we use resources, but the more booted tanks the less resources we use. This is why I am confused about the major costs for your group. We do not use a dr tank often if at all its always a hit point melee.

I agree with Tot with 500 hp you will not be tanking on any difficulty. The thresholds are normal 550 hp, hard 650 hp, and elite about 700 hp. A disintegrate can land for 550 hp. It is a good idea to maintain a cushion for if a disintegrate lands. Edit: those numbers include rage and yugoloth potions.

[Dark-Star]

Got your PM Thanimal, here is my feedback.

I will echo what Maddmatt has posted as we have run and learned the Tower raid together from the release of the mod.

Your HPs will be a bit low for anything but normal. Intimidating and shield blocking may work for you, that is not a method that we have used really.

The hate from the two defender PrE's is currently broken. In fact, it almost feels like it gives the oposite effect atm. I tanked VoD elite on Thehurtlockr and could not maintain aggro to save my life until I turned off the PrE.

You may have to rethink your build some and pump hp's or intim, at least until they fix the hate based PrE's and you can re-evaluate. I am having to do the same on Thehurtlockr some, thank goodness he still has top shelf DPS to fall back on.

[Thanimal]

Firstly, thanks to all for this extremely useful and detailed information!! It appears an Intim/Turtle option may be viable for this build, unless a more suitable tank is available in which case HM just operates as a gimped Monster.

Next a quick response to Dark:


The hate from the two defender PrE's is currently broken. In fact, it almost feels like it gives the oposite effect atm. I tanked VoD elite on Thehurtlockr and could not maintain aggro to save my life until I turned off the PrE.

You may have to rethink your build some and pump hp's or intim, at least until they fix the hate based PrE's and you can re-evaluate. I am having to do the same on Thehurtlockr some, thank goodness he still has top shelf DPS to fall back on.

No worries for me -- I'm slooooow. They'll fix it by the time I get there! That's right: I am slower than Turbine! :)

And HM and Hurtlocker are sorta similar in being high-DPS capable (HM has a higher baseline, Hurtlocker has signficantly higher best-case).

But thanks for mentioning it in this thread, in case anybody else is working on a build similar to this.

Has there been official admission of the problem and/or a timetable for a fix?

[Thanimal]

(Added a few key aspects of this turtle tanking discussion into the OP.)

[Thanimal]

Finally dinged 10 and now I'm actually a Stalwart Defender.

Overall, I remain really, really happy about this build. I have quite a mix of DPS and durability -- actually beating most "run of the mill" characters on BOTH. And I'm pretty happy about my tankiness -- I can now expect to hit 50 when needed (better with a Paladin or other help), so am prepared to tank in GH as a 10. DR 5 is very nice and means grazing blows ... don't.

One odd thing at 10 is that it's tough to decide what weapons to use! Eventually, Khopeshes will be the clear choice, but at this level I can't eat -5 CE -2 TW -2 oversized and expect to hit anything. Even Khopesh/Kukri is at -1 relative to Kama/Kama due to Monk BAB. And Handwraps are the best to-hit of all, a fairly shocking +5 vs. same-bonus dual-Khopesh. But Handwraps cost me a point of AC vs. Kamas because no TWD!

It appears I will use a Khopesh/Kukri combo with CE off most of the time, and when I need to go all-out tank I'll use Kama/Kama with CE on.

Also good news: I cannot trivially solo GH as a 10. So the dungeon scaling DOES have some limits!!

[cforce]

So takes some slightly uber stuff to hit the Reflex target, but certainly "pretty good." Btw, this is one of the big reasons I don't like the Fighter 18/Monk 2 option as much, since that path has noticeably worse Reflex save, making Evasion less of an asset.


Going back to original assumptions here - this only ends up as a -1 differential, right?

Reflex save, Stalwart 13-18:
+2 (fighter levels)
+1 (tier III stance)
<+3 feats>

Reflex save, Tempest 1-6:
+5 (ranger levels)
+1 (DEX enhancements)
<TWF, iTWF granted>

The ranger nominally gets +3 more, but the fighter levels come with net +1 feat, which could be spent on Lightning Reflexes, narrowing the gap to only a -1 difference.

Of course, Fighter 18/Monk 2 actually frees up *3* feats vs. Fighter 12/Ranger 6/Monk 2, because you no longer need Mobility/Spring Attack. So you could actually close the gap completely with regard to reflex saves, and have room for Greater WS as well. Am I forgetting a ranger-based reflex bonus anywhere?

You may have guessed this is where I'm going already, but with the recent unarmed improvements, does a Stalwart 18/Monk 2 with an unarmed focus become a better plan for hate tanking? With end-game rings and a nice array of greater bane handwraps, that's likely to be pretty competitive on raw DPS in DPS mode (perhaps better) vs. the Hate Monster. And against heavy-fort, I'd assume the Stalwart 18/Monk 2 unarmed wins outright. Also, against non-undead non-evil-outsiders, I expect the unarmed build to out DPS the Hate Monster even against 0-fort opponents, I think.

(For Thanimal's benefit: I've crossed-checked these assumptions against the draft DPS calc spreadsheet I've been working on. For everyone else: this is still a tool I'm debugging, so take that with a grain of salt.)

Then, I *think* the Stalwart 18/Monk 2 ends up just straight-up ahead in every other important category. More hit points, more AC, equal reflex and better Will/Fort saves, higher hate-generation with the 200% bonus. This last one is technically overkill, but gives you more leeway with running with sub-par equipement and not worrying about slipping below the threshold of, say, an uber-equipped Hammer. And, I think a net +2 feats that I *still* haven't accounted for because you also get to drop Khopesh and TWD?

Is 18/2 the logical Mod 9 evolution of the Hate Monster? I might try fleshing this out to see.

[Thanimal]

Well, well, well. This is extremely interesting! I feel pretty confident to say the direction you're considering here is a good build. But I'm not going to cede it being generally better than 12/6/2 just yet. :)


Reflex save, Stalwart 13-18:
+2 (fighter levels)
+1 (tier III stance)
<+3 feats>

Reflex save, Tempest 1-6:
+5 (ranger levels)
+1 (DEX enhancements)
<TWF, iTWF granted>

<etc.>

Your logic here appears correct. If you assume the Stalwart III spends some of his extra feats to boost saving throws, then the reflex save (in stance) is the same.


...Greater WS as well

Well, you need Greater Focus prereq first, but in total it does appear that the unarmed Stalwart III direction frees up a pile of feats. Based on some discussion in this thread, I see a fair chance some of these should go to additional Toughness.


With end-game rings and a nice array of greater bane handwraps, that's likely to be pretty competitive on raw DPS in DPS mode (perhaps better) vs. the Hate Monster. And against heavy-fort, I'd assume the Stalwart 18/Monk 2 unarmed wins outright. Also, against non-undead non-evil-outsiders, I expect the unarmed build to out DPS the Hate Monster even against 0-fort opponents, I think.

This seems shocking. Has the pendulum really swung so far so suddenly? This can only really be true if unarmed is simply far better than Khopesh. Otherwise, the Tempest "splash" has every advantage: +2 Ram's Might STR, +2 Ram's Might damage, +10% attack rate, +6 Evil Outsider damage. For DPS, the delta of Stalwart III over Stalwart II is +1 STR (and only in stance). So I think Hate Monster *has* to be more DPS -- the only possibly advantage for 18/2 unarmed would be unarmed itself, and HM could trivially be rebuilt for unarmed (and pick up two "extra" feats in so doing).

I'm pretty sure this would have to also imply that The Monster (the original DPS-focused one) should be Kensai III unarmed specialization. In fact, it's much more obvious in that case because Kensai II brings near infinite ki. If that's true then I predict these new rings will be nerfed at some point, since having DDO be nothing but unarmed DPS builds would be WAY off thematically.


Then, I *think* the Stalwart 18/Monk 2 ends up just straight-up ahead in every other important category.

More hit points

True. And that may be very important now.


more AC

I don't think so. Although it may or may not be fair to count the Ranger FE AC bonus, the 6 Ranger levels bring +1 AC from DEX and +2 shield bonus. Without the Ranger levels it's even more painful to try to get a usable UMD value here, and clickies w/ CE cause dangerous huge drops in AC even if willing to manage the toggling, so I think assuming Shield effect always on is not realistic.

In particular, if we go to Max Protect Mode, then Hate Monster actually also uses Wind Stance, and so the difference are:

Fighter 18
+1 Stalwart III
+1 Stalwart III stance

Fighter 12/Ranger 6
+1 DEX (Ranger)
+2 sheild
(+1 FE)
+1 TWD

Not a HUGE difference, but on a build that is walking the edge of sufficient AC, I think this is advantage should not be trivialized.


equal reflex and better Will/Fort saves, higher hate-generation with the 200% bonus.

True. Although I think we agree that these advantages are very minor (unless Hate Monster + 100% cannot stay ahead of, e.g., uber-equipped Hammer).

Speaking of minor advantages, a few other things to consider about the Ranger splash:

Cure Wand usage. Technically almost irrelevant at end-game, or if you have a bahzillion Repair Serious Potions, but a major convenience for levelling up.

Resist Wand usage. HUGE for soloing.

Significant extra ranks of Jump and Balance.


I might try fleshing this out to see.

PLEASE DO!

Bottom line for me is the AC, but I'm also quite skeptical about the DPS. I think if we can "prove" that unarmed Stalwart 18 is more DPS, then all it tells us is that we don't care about Tempest itself, and just want Ranger for the significant advantage of Ram's Might with unarmed, along with FE stuff. Both of those are magnified by the faster attack rate of unarmed/Wind Stance.

[cforce]

Well, you need Greater Focus prereq first, but in total it does appear that the unarmed Stalwart III direction frees up a pile of feats. Based on some discussion in this thread, I see a fair chance some of these should go to additional Toughness.

Actually, Greater Weapon Spec only has WF and WS as prereqs. However, to your later point, the Hate Monster could be trivially refactored as unarmed, and include this feat in the process. More on this in a bit.



Otherwise, the Tempest "splash" has every advantage:


+2 Ram's Might STR <-> +1 Stalwart Stance STR
+2 Ram's Might damage <-> +1 Fighter enh damage
+10% attack rate <-> WS I + Unarmed is still more attacks/min, overall
+6 Evil Outsider damage <-> ...wait, a digression...

In light of the new Epic content and general expansion of end-game content, I don't know if it's fair to "count" FE damage like its universal anymore. 4 Favored enemies is starting to get to feel more "situational", and only 2 certainly is a far cry from "100% coverage" now. I suspect this trend will only continue, and we're seeing the end of the reign of "Favored Enemy Dominance" that Rangers/splashes have enjoyed.

But, that's debatable -- I'll leave that one alone for now.



I don't think so. Although it may or may not be fair to count the Ranger FE AC bonus, the 6 Ranger levels bring +1 AC from DEX and +2 shield bonus. Without the Ranger levels it's even more painful to try to get a usable UMD value here...

I'm not *quite* convinced of the pain level. Enough skill points are available to put max ranks in Intimidate, UMD(at half), and Balance. Is anything beyond that really that painful to use?

In fact, with one of the extra feats freed up, you could invest in SF: UMD. At that point, the points you make about assuming a 10-minute shield wand for raids is pretty feasible, which I think makes *this* comparison:



Fighter 18
+1 Stalwart III
+1 Stalwart III stance

Fighter 12/Ranger 6
+1 DEX (Ranger)
+2 sheild
(+1 FE)
+1 TWD


..drop the "+2 shield" line. Also, I'm kinda juggling comparisons of Hate Monster, and then the "trivally respeced for unarmed", but along the trivial re-spec lines, you'd also lose out on TWD. And I've already made my feeling clear on FE ;)



Speaking of minor advantages, a few other things to consider about the Ranger splash:

Cure Wand usage. Technically almost irrelevant at end-game, or if you have a bahzillion Repair Serious Potions, but a major convenience for levelling up.

Resist Wand usage. HUGE for soloing.

Significant extra ranks of Jump and Balance.


Agreed on all points except Balance.

[Thanimal]

Actually, Greater Weapon Spec only has WF and WS as prereqs.

REALLY!? That's rather important! I've been assuming all along I was TWO feats away from that particular +2. At just one, I might be forced to aggressively cut something for it.

I'm being a bit nitpicky in this next part, but I still think 12/6/2 is flat more damage potential period. In particular:

+2 Ram's Might STR > +1 Stalwart Stance STR
+2 Ram's Might damage > +1 Fighter enh damage
(Removed as Khopesh vs. unarmed is a choice both builds make)
+6 Evil Outsider damage > +0 Evil Outside damage

Also, even if the DPS turns out to be "about the same," the weapon nod seems to go to 12/6/2, because Tempest still means that "effect" weapons like Vorpal or W/E are applied faster.


Enough skill points are available to put max ranks in Intimidate, UMD(at half), and Balance. In fact, with one of the extra feats freed up, you could invest in SF: UMD.

Interesting! I'll want to see the breakdown, though, as I've now lost track of how many "extra" feats we're really getting. But it could end up being "obvious" that Hate Monster should drop Khopesh and TWD, go unarmed, and substitute SF: UMD and an extra Toughness feat. I have to reincarnate eventually as a 32-pointer, so the marginal cost of a full respec is free.

I'm really enjoying having Spot, but I have to admit that's a pure "nice to have."

One more tiny bonus of Ranger levels: Ranger Sprint Boost. I've justed started leveling my Hammer, and MAN do I miss that Ranger Zerg Boost...

Final almost-off-topic note: I'm not that happy about the thematic fit of unarmed. My new Hammer is already showing massive DPS potential at a mere level 5, but punching and kicking everything just seems kinda ridiculous... As I understand it, martial arts were invented (or, more specifically, elevated to "arts") because they didn't HAVE decent weapons... If Khopesh and unarmed options ended up overall "about the same," I'd go Khopesh.

[cforce]

Final almost-off-topic note: I'm not that happy about the thematic fit of unarmed. My new Hammer is already showing massive DPS potential at a mere level 5, but punching and kicking everything just seems kinda ridiculous... As I understand it, martial arts were invented (or, more specifically, elevated to "arts") because they didn't HAVE decent weapons... If Khopesh and unarmed options ended up overall "about the same," I'd go Khopesh.

Hollywood called, and they're having Jackie Chan hand-deliver a stack of movies to your door -- they've heard your disbelief is not at the proper American level of suspension.

[Thanimal]

Hollywood called, and they're having Jackie Chan hand-deliver a stack of movies to your door -- they've heard your disbelief is not at the proper American level of suspension.

He looked suspicious, so I shot him.

[cforce]

As promised, I fleshed out the unarmed variant, and it's interesting. Found here:

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=211398

[Thanimal]

Hit 11 a little while back. MAN do I love this build. I feel so close to optimal in every melee role.

11 happens to bring a ton of equipment upgrades (+5 stat items, +4 Prot item, Minos hat). A quick trip into GH suggested soloing there is now possible, but I ran into the new Cabal bug and got too frustrated to return to GH for a little while. I've "borrowed" a Planar Gird, too, because I was missing a bit in there. I *think* I should be all set now.

But my immediate goal is to solo VoN3. I made it quite far on my first attempt only to realize that I wasn't carrying an INT item and so I couldn't get past the runes! But now I've got that and an Anarchic Khopesh, so we'll see...

Oh, and I do some groups sometimes, too! The only problem there is that I keep having this feeling that everyone should buff me up and then stay out of the way... :)

My wife is rolling one of these now -- 32 pointer with Headstart. I am looking forward to seeing the carnage from my Wizard following her around!

[Nodoze]

I may be using this for my WF duo (with Arcane Trickster healing/CC/buffing/Trapmonkey). That being said it would be nice to know this build would be viable for a role in raids also...

Seems like there were still unanswered questions on the viability of the AC and such with this build.

Any updates about this build working now that L20 is out?

[Thanimal]

I need to update this build a little bit at some point -- but nothing fundamental, just enhancements, MAYBE a feat or two, and new uber stuff like Yugoloth potions.

I've seen respected end-game players posting hate tanks with less AC than this guy, so I'm not terribly worried about that. The key change that is needed is to make sure you can get to 600 hp if you absolutely must, so you are well-insulated from rolling a 1 vs. Disintegrate. I see this as being VERY doable with relatively minor adjustments. Heck there are some "free" enhancement points once the build hits 20 and can drop WF Brute Fighting. Then there's Rage effects and Yugoloth potions on CON. And worst case I can drop some DPS feats for more Toughness.

And if you aren't yet fully equipped for the tank role, just turn on Power Attack and change roles -- the DPS on this build is not equal to the best possible, but is quite decent.

Bottom line is I'm not worried at all. Hopefully I'll get around to a level-20-focused re-post at some point.

[Robinton]

Thanimal,

Apparently, I can't read very well. Edited to remove stupid question. Will add other comments as I work through this.

Rob

[Robinton]

Thanimal,

I just got level 8 on my version of this build - really looking forward to level 9 and all the stuff I have stashed for him. Having a lot of fun with this guy. My biggest issue is when I bring friends and they get aggro (undead in Deleras) and they die while I sit there taking no to little damage. Ranger sprint helps, but those level 6 sorcs w/o firewall are just paper.

So, iTWF versus oTWF versus one more Damage Reduction later...

I am still pretty new to the in's and out's of dps. I liked the idea of two khopeshes and happened to have some good candidates in my inventory so I took oTWF at 8 rather than iTWF. What am I trading off?

Eventually, I plan to follow your plan to respec to Mobility and Spring Attack for Tempest I so oTWF is only short term. However, if I want to bring it back, I could trade a DR feat at 18 for oTWF again. Your opinion?

Minos Legens I plan to get at 11. What helm should is good to use in the interim?

One other question (for now :P) - why do you say you can drop WF Brute fighting later? Quote "Heck there are some "free" enhancement points once the build hits 20 and can drop WF Brute Fighting".

Thanks for the fun,

Rob

PS - I didn't edit my earlier reply again in case you have alerts turned on for new replies.

[Thanimal]

Thanimal,

I just got level 8 on my version of this build - really looking forward to level 9 and all the stuff I have stashed for him. Having a lot of fun with this guy. My biggest issue is when I bring friends and they get aggro (undead in Deleras) and they die while I sit there taking no to little damage. Ranger sprint helps, but those level 6 sorcs w/o firewall are just paper.

Glad you are enjoying it. I'm pretty convinced this is overall the best build I have ever made. I'm having so much fun playing it that I can't find the time to make an updated post about it! (Though again, not much changing in the build -- just want to change the presentation to reflect 20 levels and new stuff.)
As far as holding aggro from guys you can't Intimidate, be aware that you have to actually turn on the WF Brute Fighting -- it's a mode (and it turns itself off when you log out!!). That gives you a little edge over other tank builds in holding aggro, but the bottom line is that some Sorcs just can't keep their Firewall in their pants AND don't know how to run the result aggro back through you. About the best you can do is offer "hey if you run back through me I might be able to get that aggro off you."

Also, note that, at higher levels, most Undead CAN be Intimidated.


I am still pretty new to the in's and out's of dps.

They change things a lot to keep us ALL on our toes. But cforce has been doing a lot of DPS work recently, and I've been really impressed at where this build fits considering that it's primary job is to hold aggro and not die. It actually has greater end-game DPS potential than some builds that are trying to be focused on DPS! (This assumes you make 4 greensteel Khopeshs, though, 2 for tanking and 2 for DPS -- may be unrealistic for most folks.)


I liked the idea of two khopeshes and happened to have some good candidates in my inventory so I took oTWF at 8 rather than iTWF. What am I trading off?

iTWF is subtly one of the most powerful DPS feats in the game. It adds an extra attack, which is almost +15% DPS -- more than even the mighty Tempest enhancement!! Do NOT delay it unless you absolutely have to. That said, I think it's quite legitimate to drop a single point of DR and put oTWF in. I've been content to run Kukri/Khopesh combo through mid levels, and probably will go dual Khopesh at more like 16. That said, I've been fairly surprised that this build actually has some slight to-hit issues. If that continues, I may eventually drop Weapon Specialization in favor of oTWF, since in the end-game I really do "need" to go dual-Khopesh. I doubt I'm going to lower DR in the final 20 level plan, though. Really loving my immunity to grazing hits, and "stacking" a Bodyfeeder with innate DR is sick for soloing.


Minos Legens I plan to get at 11. What helm should is good to use in the interim?

A +10 Intimidate hat would be a nice placeholder. But I don't have any special suggestions. (Certainly Minos is right for levels 11-18, although it appears to me that the final final equipment will actually have to drop Minos except for special "hit point tanking" situations like Horgoth.)


One other question (for now :P) - why do you say you can drop WF Brute fighting later? Quote "Heck there are some "free" enhancement points once the build hits 20 and can drop WF Brute Fighting".

Because at 20 you'll pick up Defender Stance II -- with similar equipment to your "competition," that +100% will hold hate aggro from every build in the game.


Thanks for the fun,

You're welcome! I hope more folks will run this build. I am completely in love with it, I must say! Wish I could put my life on Pause and run this guy straight to 20!!

[Robinton]

Thanimal,

Thanks for the explanations. Unfortunately, I had already leveled and now have oTWF and am using two large weapons. No biggie as most mobs have a hard time hitting me (as you know). Oh yeah, Bodyfeeder for the win! I already had great solo ability, but with Bodyfeeder - it is sick!

Looking forward to a nice holiday weekend with lots of play time! Have a good one.

Rob

PS - I have 10 tapestries (my main is exploring in Orchard) and will easily have enough for a Minos Legens by the time I reach 11. I may get enough for two :P.

[Nettrekker]

I just recently rolled a similar character using you Monster build as the main focal point. You only showed 4 level bumps for Str, so I put all 5 bumps there and then only took Fighter STR II instead of three. I also took OTWD, and then took TWD later. My version does not use CE at all (just not something I normally take). Otherwise I love this build and its a lot of fun to play.

Thanks



Frankenstein (my version of the Monster)

Warforged – Fighter (Defender) 12 / Ranger (Tempest) 6 / Monk 2

Strength 16 [35] +2 tome, +2 Fighter, +5 bumps, +6 item, +3 stance
Dexterity 16 [26] +2 tome, +2 Ranger, +6 item
Constitution 11 [24] +2 tome, +2 Racial, +6 item, +3 stance
Intelligence 11 [13] +2 tome
Wisdom 13 [22] +2 tome, +1 monk, +6 item]
Charisma 06 [08] +2 tome

Level 1: Ranger – iDR, Favored Enemy: Undead
Level 2: Ranger
Level 3: Monk – iDR, Dodge
Level 4: Monk – Toughness
Level 5: Fighter – OTWF
Level 6: Fighter – iDR, Exotic Weapon: Khopesh (re-spec to Mobility @ 12)
Level 7: Fighter
Level 8: Fighter – iTWF (re-spec to Spring Attack @14)
Level 9: Fighter – Weapon Focus: Slashing
Level 10: Fighter – iCrit: Slashing
Level 11: Ranger
Level 12: Ranger – Exotic Weapon: Khopesh (re-spec EW: Khopesh to Mobility prior to leveling)
Level 13: Ranger – Favored Enemy: Undead
Level 14: Ranger – (re-spec iTWF to Spring Attack prior to leveling)
Level 15: Fighter – gTWF
Level 16: Fighter – Power Attack
Level 17: Fighter
Level 18: Fighter – iDR, TWD
Level 19: Fighter
Level 20: Fighter – Weapon Spec: Slashing

Warforged Damage Reduction: I, II, III
Ranger Tempest: I
Ranger Dexterity: I, II
Monk Wisdom: I
Fighter Haste Boost: I, II
Fighter Strength: I, II
Fighter Intimidate: I, II
Fighter AC Boost: I, II
Fighter Item Defense: I
Fighter Toughness: I, II, III
Fighter Stalwart Defender: I, II
Warforged Construct Thinking: I
Warforged Healers Friend: I
Warforged Brute Fighting: I, II, III, IV
Warforged Constitution: I, II
Ranger Sprint Boost: I
Fighter Khopesh Spec: I
Warforged Toughness: I, II, III
Fighter Critical Accuracy: I

[ivanbss]

Im curious about how this build gona work on the next patch after the monk changes:

* Monks now automatically receive the first tier of elemental stances for free. These are available in the character’s Feat list as a granted feat. Selecting a philosophy will now automatically grant Fists of Light or Fists of Darkness, which will also be found in the character’s Feat list.
* Lists of common finishing moves are now visible in the feats list. As a result of these changes, most monks should find that their enhancements have been reset.
* The Monk's Curse of Healing and Touch of Despair effects now have visual effects on their targets.
* The Two Weapon Fighting and Two Handed Fighting feats have been added to the martial arts feat list available to monks at levels 1, 2, and 6.
* The original monk paths have been replaced with new paths that better incorporate the changes that have been made to the class. Characters that are currently on one of the three paths will continue to remain on it, but newly created monks will have a choice of the Shintao Monk, Ninja Spy, or Henshin Mystic paths.

[celestinek]

What about taking a lvl of war out and adding a splash of barbarian for the rage?

[Jiipster]

What about taking a lvl of war out and adding a splash of barbarian for the rage?

You can only take three classes, and the three taken are at optimal breakpoints.

[emptysands]

I've put this together for my own use while considering various builds. It might be useful to others:



Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.34
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Vartan Hate Monster
Level 20 Lawful Neutral Warforged Male
(12 Fighter \ 2 Monk \ 6 Ranger)
Hit Points: 296
Spell Points: 70
BAB: 19\19\24\29\29
Fortitude: 18
Reflex: 17
Will: 12

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 16 26
Dexterity 16 20
Constitution 11 15
Intelligence 11 13
Wisdom 13 16
Charisma 6 8

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 3
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 5 25
Bluff -2 -1
Concentration 4 9
Diplomacy -2 -1
Disable Device n/a n/a
Haggle -2 -1
Heal 1 3
Hide 3 5
Intimidate 0 28
Jump 7 21
Listen 1 3
Move Silently 3 5
Open Lock n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 0 1
Search 4 5
Spot 5 16
Swim 3 8
Tumble n/a 8
Use Magic Device n/a n/a

Level 1 (Ranger)
Skill: Balance (+2)
Skill: Concentration (+4)
Skill: Intimidate (+2)
Skill: Jump (+4)
Skill: Search (+4)
Skill: Spot (+4)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Undead
Feat: (Selected) Improved Damage Reduction


Level 2 (Ranger)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+0.5)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)


Level 3 (Monk)
Skill: Balance (+3)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Dodge
Feat: (Selected) Improved Damage Reduction


Level 4 (Monk)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Skill: Tumble (+2)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Toughness


Level 5 (Fighter)
Skill: Intimidate (+3)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Two Weapon Defense


Level 6 (Fighter)
Skill: Intimidate (+3)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Damage Reduction
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Mobility


Level 7 (Fighter)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Jump (+2)


Level 8 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Spring Attack


Level 9 (Fighter)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Jump (+2)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons


Level 10 (Fighter)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Combat Expertise


Level 11 (Ranger)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+0.5)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Spot (+3)


Level 12 (Ranger)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+3)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Khopesh
Spell (1): Camouflage
Spell (1): Jump
Spell (1): Longstrider
Spell (1): Merfolk's Blessing
Spell (1): Ram's Might
Spell (1): Resist Energy
Spell (1): Summon Nature's Ally I
Spell (1): Tumble


Level 13 (Ranger)
Skill: Balance (+2)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Spot (+2)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Evil Outsider


Level 14 (Ranger)
Skill: Balance (+2)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Spot (+2)


Level 15 (Fighter)
Skill: Intimidate (+3)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting


Level 16 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Intimidate (+3)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Power Attack


Level 17 (Fighter)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)


Level 18 (Fighter)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Damage Reduction
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons


Level 19 (Fighter)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)


Level 20 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Fighter Armor Class Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Armor Class Boost II
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost II
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost III
Enhancement: Ranger Sprint Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Stalwart Defender I
Enhancement: Fighter Stalwart Defender II
Enhancement: Fighter Khopesh Specialization I
Enhancement: Fighter Item Defense I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Damage I
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Damage II
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Defense I
Enhancement: Ranger Tempest I
Enhancement: Fighter Intimidate I
Enhancement: Fighter Intimidate II
Enhancement: Ranger Dexterity I
Enhancement: Ranger Dexterity II
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength II
Enhancement: Fighter Strength III
Enhancement: Monk Wisdom I
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness II
Enhancement: Warforged Brute Fighting I
Enhancement: Warforged Brute Fighting II
Enhancement: Warforged Brute Fighting III
Enhancement: Warforged Constitution I
Enhancement: Warforged Constitution II
Enhancement: Warforged Construct Thinking I
Enhancement: Warforged Damage Reduction I
Enhancement: Warforged Damage Reduction II
Enhancement: Warforged Damage Reduction III
Enhancement: Warforged Healer's Friend I

[Musashiclaw]

Thanimal,
What Items does Vehemuth your Hate Monster wear? What is his standing HP and AC without all the buffs you mentioned.
Did you change any of your enhancements or idea's on this build from whats posted with edits on the first page?

[Henuindohr]

Probably i'm going to say something dumb, but you use stellward defense with Tempest!? If it is there is a problem, those can't stack; defense requires you to wear the shield, tempest requires you wield two weapons... i can't undesrad how you can have more tha 90 AC

[Henuindohr]

AC at 16
Without farming
10 base
9 DT docent
1 alchemical
8 dex
6 wis
5 CE
2 Tempest
5 Deflection
2 stance
1 Defender
1 Dodge feat
1 TWD
2 Chaosgarde
1 Centered Bonus
---
54

Standard self-buff
1 Haste
3 Bark
---
58

"Easy buffs"
+2 Ranger
+4 Bard
---
64 (actually a bit better than target)

With farming
3 Dodge
4 Insight
---
71

Slightly less likely buffs
+5 Paladin
+2 Recitation
---
78

Favored Enemy
79

Even more uber equipment
+2 DEX from +3 Tome and +3 exceptional bonus (Lightning Strike weapon)
+2 WIS from +3 Tome and +3 exceptional bonus (ring)
---
83

All-out defensive pose (Wind Stance and Kamas)
+1 DEX from Wind Stance
---
84

Short-term
+2 Shield clickie
---
86

Very short term
+3 Fighter AC boost (it's a prereq to Defender, might as well use it!)
---
89

Stuff that hits at 20
+1 Defender II
+1 Defender Stance II
---
91


I don't understand how do you get 91 AC; since Defender and Tempest don't stack because the first requires shied and the second require to wield two weapons. May be i'm telling something Dumb, but i want to understand that build. thx!
[excause me for my bad english, isn't my language]

[cforce]

I don't understand how do you get 91 AC; since Defender and Tempest don't stack because the first requires shied and the second require to wield two weapons. May be i'm telling something Dumb, but i want to understand that build. thx!
[excause me for my bad english, isn't my language]

Only the DR portion of the Stalwart bonuses depend on using a shield; the AC bonuses apply regardless of weapon sets.

[Merlocke]

AC at 16
Without farming
10 base
9 DT docent
1 alchemical


how do you get 9 AC from DT? Been away for a bit but I thought it was lower than that.