Khopesh vs Rapier DPS

[Valezra]

I couldn't find this anywhere on the forums so if it's been done before I apologize.

Assumptions:
1. Improved Critical or Keen Weapon.
2. Total bonus damage of 10, 25, 50 before base weapon damage or race considerations for calculations.
3. Land all hits on rolls 2-20.
4. Bloodstone.


Khopesh:
1d10 Base for Greensteel = 5.5 Avg

F(10):
Avg Hit = (10+5.5) * (15/20) = 11.625
Avg Crit = (10+5.5+6) * (4/20) * 3 = 12.9
Total = 24.525

F(25):
Avg Hit = (25+5.5) * (15/20) = 22.875
Avg Crit = (25+5.5+6) * (4/20) * 3 = 21.9
Total = 44.775

F(50):
Avg Hit = (50+5.5) * (15/20) = 41.625
Avg Crit = (50+5.5+6) * (4/20) * 3 = 36.9
Total = 78.525


Rapier (and Scimitar for Elf):
1d8 Base for Greensteel = 4.5 Avg

F(10):
Avg Hit = (10+4.5) * (13/20) = 9.425
Avg Crit = (10+4.5+6) * (6/20) * 2 = 12.3
Total = 21.725

F(10) elf/drow:
Avg Hit = (10+4.5+2) * (13/20) = 10.725
Avg Crit = (10+4.5+2+6) * (6/20) * 2 = 13.5
Total = 24.225

F(25):
Avg Hit = (25+4.5) * (13/20) = 19.175
Avg Crit = (25+4.5+6) * (6/20) * 2 = 21.3
Total = 40.725

F(25) elf/drow:
Avg Hit = (25+4.5+2) * (13/20) = 20.475
Avg Crit = (25+4.5+2+6) * (6/20) * 2 = 22.5
Total = 42.975

F(50):
Avg Hit = (50+4.5) * (13/20) = 35.425
Avg Crit = (50+4.5+6) * (6/20) * 2 = 36.3
Total = 71.725

F(50) elf/drow:
Avg Hit = (50+4.5+2) * (13/20) = 36.725
Avg Crit = (50+4.5+2+6) * (6/20) * 2 = 37.5
Total = 74.225

Comparison:

@ Damage (10) - Khopesh does 12.8% more damage than a rapier and 1.2% more damage than a drow/elf rapier.

@ Damage (25) - Khopesh does 9.9% more damage than a rapier and 4.2% more damage than a drow/elf rapier.

@ Damage (50) - Khopesh does 9.5% more damage than a rapier and 5.8% more damage than a drow/elf rapier.

***Edit*** It should be noted that for any setup as the bonus damage increases the advantage of the Khopesh over the Rapier eventually levels out at 8% regardless of the Elf/Drow bonus.

Burst Damage Comparison:
(Assume 1d10 on x2 crit, 2d10 on x3 crit, and 3d10 on 4x crit)

Khopesh Added Burst Damage = 11 * 4 / 20 = 2.2 damage/swing avg
Rapier Added Burst Damage = 5.5 * 6 / 20 = 1.65 damage/swing avg

Discussion:

When looking at the avg hit and the avg crit for a khopesh we find that more than 50% of the khopesh's total damage is coming from regular hits. In fact, Rapiers do more base crit damage than the Khopesh for drow/elf races (this can be offset by a loss in Burst damage for Rapiers however). This means that a miss on a 2 will have a greater DPS loss for the Khopesh user than it will for the Rapier user. Furthermore, elf/drow can take an additional +2 to hit meaning in some circumstances where the AC of the monster or boss is very high the drow/elf rapier user can do slightly higher damage than the Khopesh user.

Notice that as the total damage output increases the advantage of being elf/drow diminishes from only a 1.2% loss at 10 bonus damage to a 5.8% loss at 50 bonus damage.

This is of course circumstantial depending on the mob you are attacking but a good rule of thumb would be to go drow/elf rapier for 3/4 BAB classes such as bards and clerics to offset the loss in BAB and put the DPS on a closer playing ground to a full BAB khopesh user. If you are a paladin, fighter, barbarian, or cleric who spams Divine Power a lot then Khopesh will always provide the highest DPS. If you are an elf/drow and want to free up a feat (such as for the feat starved Paladin) you can go Rapiers and be confident that at the very worst you will probably only be doing 5% less damage than your Khopesh clone counterpart.

Val

[Arkat]

Try using Goodburst (like from a Shroud weapon). What are your conclusions then?

[Draccus]

I've heard loads of comments comparing these weapons but none had any data to back it up. This is good stuff, thanks Val!

[Valezra]

Try using Goodburst (like from a Shroud weapon). What are your conclusions then?

GoodBurst Damage Comparison:
(Assume 4d6 on x2 crit, 5d6 on x3 crit, and 6d6 on 4x crit)

Khopesh Added Burst Damage = 17.5 * 4 / 20 = 3.5 damage/swing avg
Rapier Added Burst Damage = 14 * 6 / 20 = 4.2 damage/swing avg

The rapier does .7 more damage/swing avg more than the khopesh. In order to do a complete "which weapon does more total damage" comparison I would have to compare two fully constructed GS weapons.

[Valezra]

I've heard loads of comments comparing these weapons but none had any data to back it up. This is good stuff, thanks Val!

Yeah i was always hearing the same as well... got tired of anecdotal information so I decided to calc it out. Thanks Dres.

[rimble]

Yeah, it's such a hard comparison, so many 'what ifs'...

Like Assumption #3 is in favor of the Khopesh. If you assumed Khopesh hits on a 4-20 and then Drow/Elf Rapier on a 2-20, that's another valid case. Few people miss fully Raid buffed, but it does happen, especially after Power Attack is on.

I also always like to consider a small weapon in the off-hand too. Sometimes you just need to step back down to a Rapier/Short Sword for that additional +2 ToHit. What does Khopesh use in the offhand in that case and how does it compare? I've never bothered trying to use Khopesh, they are too expensive and too hard to find (and I'm not much of a Shroud grinder).

[Nyvn]

It's my understanding that power attack also gives a larger boost to Khopesh vs Rapier/Scimitar.

[QuantumFX]

Might as well point out that elves with scimitars fall into this discussion as well thanks to the Valenar elven weapon enhancements. (A scimitar has the same stats as a rapier with the ability to bypass the more common DR/Slashing)

Also, other enhancements favor various weapons as well. ex. Exalted Smite, Kensai III

[Taojeff]

Hey Val,

Ok so what if Scimitars were used instead of rapiers and they had not the additional +2 for racial bonus but an unnamed total of +4. What would the numbers look like. This is all just hypothetical :rolleyes:

[winsom]

In short, the Khopesh is better, but in DDO we also need to consider racial enhancements and weapon bursting effects and that can make Rapier better than Khopesh.

When Two Weapon Fighting the off-hand weapon's strength modifier is reduced. This reduction also makes for smaller critical damage. Racial enhancements get multiplied on a crit so elf, drow and dwarf two weapon fighters get an increase in off-hand DPS compared to other races.

Holy/Good Burst damage dice is different than Elemental Burst:
Holy/Good Burst rapier is +3d6 on a crit, This fits Rapier users very well as the crit range can be 15-20.
Compare that to 17-20 for Khopesh and +4d6 holy/good burst damage

Elves get up to +2 racial attack and damage bonus with longswords and rapiers. Soon this elf option can be changed to either scimitar or falchions.

DDO damage comparison tool: http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/ddo/

That tools shows the nearly identical DPS when comparing equal strength elf rapier vs. human khopesh, assuming both are using Holy/Good Burst, with rapier dealing slightly more damage over time against the highest ACs due to the elven +2 attack bonus, and thats with single-handed attacking. If off-hand damage were added the elf would pull ahead in DPS.

When Power Attack is used the human Khopesh wielder will deal more damage against very low AC targets and the elven rapier user will deal more damage against mid-range and high AC targets.

It is very important to note that in my analysis the elven racial enhancement makes for most of the difference. If human rapier were compared to human khopesh then the khopesh would deal more damage in all situations.

[Valezra]

Okay, I'd like to reply on a couple of things mentioned.

1. Power Attack adds damage to the weapon just like any other damage modifier. I calculated a total damage bonus of 10, 25, and 50 to give a range for comparison. If your bonus to damage is 20 and you turn on power attack for 25 it doesnt make a difference when comparing the two weapons... SO in short the "Power Attack favors Khopesh's" argument is actually false. If you watch, as the damage increases the Khopesh continues to lose ground on its advantage (but still retains one).

2. Good Burst on any weapon will always do less damage than Holy as the teir 1 for Min II weapons. Take rapier as an example: Good Burst = 1 * (19) + 3 * (6) d6 (or 37d6) total from rolls 2-20. Whereas Holy does 2 * 19 d6 (or 38d6) total from rolls 2-20. This difference is even greater on non-rapiers/scimitars.

3. The fact that Scimitar users will soon see the same dps benefits as a rapier user doesn't change the math. I figure if you're reading this thread you would already know Scimitars and Rapiers have identical DPS profiles. But you are totally correct for pointing that out. I will add a comment to that affect to the OP.

4. There is no logical explaination to bring off-hand weapons into the argument. An offhand weapon will suffer a strength reduction and nothing else. A dual Khopesh user and a dual Rapier user will see the same drop in bonus damage in the offhand. Example: A 30 Str khopesh user may get +25 damage to their mainhand but only +20 damage to their offhand while the rapier user will see +25 / +20 as well. This makes no difference on the calculations nor does it mean elf/drow rapier users will "pull ahead" of khopesh's because they are using two weapons. That is false.

The ONLY time Rapiers "pull ahead" of Khopesh's is when the Khopesh cannot hit on a roll of 2 or higher. Most full BAB classes do not have this problem if properly built.

Also, the dps comparison tool you linked does not calculate dps correctly. It is missing an off-hand attack hook. The inputs do not allow for "vorpal" damage (like Acid Blast), and the work is not shown for how Power Attack is implemented. There are other issues I have with it but I would highly recommend against using it to compare weapons. If you want to know how one weapon compares to another just calculate it out. If you are math inept then just post on the forums and someone will calc it for you.

taojeff: I'm assuming you are thinking of Favored Souls. Favored souls will benefit Scimitars over Khopesh's assuming an elf FS with +2 FS damage to the Scimitar on top of the +2 racial enhancement. (i only say "benefit" because it saves you a feat for almost identical dps (see below))

Math:

F(25) <--- just as one example:
Avg Hit = (25+4.5+2+2) * (13/20) = 21.775
Avg Crit = (25+4.5+2+2+6) * (6/20) * 2 = 23.64
Total = 45.415

Khopesh (25) = 44.775

At 25 bonus damage the FS Scimitar Elf will deal 1.4% more base damage than a human Khopesh weilding Favored Soul. If Acid Burst is on the weapon (a Mineral II for example) than the Khopesh gets an additional 11 * 4/20 = 2.2 avg Acid damage and a Scimitar gets an average 5.5 * 6/20 = 1.65 avg Acid damage. Since Holy (teir I) and Acid Blast (teir III) are the same for each weapon we can throw those out of the comparison. We are left with:

Khopesh (25) = 44.775 + 2.2 = 46.975
Scimitar (25) = 45.415 + 1.65 = 47.065

This puts the Scimitar weilding elf FS only .1% greater than say a human khopesh weilder. This is insignificant and can be considered equal. As the overall bonus damage increases even just a few points Khopesh comes out ahead again but will gain no significant ground over the FS elf Scimitar user for any reasonable amount of bonus damage a FS could hope to see.

[Mithran]

I'm not clear on why you guys have mentioned a reduction in damage for the offhand. My GTWF melees use OTWF. They're both drow; one uses rapiers and the other uses scimitars. The scimitar-using Ranger has Mineral/Radiance and the rapier-user is Paladin with two levels of Rogue for Intimidate/UMD. Are you assuming the absence of OTWF?

[Comfortably]

This puts the Scimitar weilding elf FS only .1% greater than say a human khopesh weilder. This is insignificant and can be considered equal. As the overall bonus damage increases even just a few points Khopesh comes out ahead again but will gain no significant ground over the FS elf Scimitar user for any reasonable amount of bonus damage a FS could hope to see.

Another great read Val, kudos. I do have a comment on that little segment there^. I know I'm rolling a Human TWF Khopesh FvS next mod, and staying pure for those kick ass capstones.

[Valezra]

Another great read Val, kudos. I do have a comment on that little segment there^. I know I'm rolling a Human TWF Khopesh FvS next mod, and staying pure for those kick ass capstones.

Thanks comf. The extra Human Feat with which to get Khopesh, and the fact that they don't have to invest nearly as many Action Points as the Elf to get the same or slightly better DPS is a huge incentive to go Human. However, the Elf will have a to-hit advantage of at least +3 over the khopesh user which is why I will probably go elf on my FS. This will help offset the frequency with which I will need to cast Divine Power.

Where can I find the FS capstone? I forget.

[Draccus]

Where can I find the FS capstone? I forget.

Compendium release notes has it: http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Release_Notes_DDO_Unlimited_Sneak_Peek

I'm making yet another attempt at an alt (I think this is alt attempt number 76 or so) and I may have found something I like playing. Human TWF Khopesh Barbarian/Rogue. He's made it to level 3, which is further than all but 4 of my previous alts.

[Valezra]

Compendium release notes has it: http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Release_Notes_DDO_Unlimited_Sneak_Peek

I'm making yet another attempt at an alt (I think this is alt attempt number 76 or so) and I may have found something I like playing. Human TWF Khopesh Barbarian/Rogue. He's made it to level 3, which is further than all but 4 of my previous alts.

LoL nice...

And thanks for the link... I happened to find it after I asked hehe. 40 Minutes of Shield means I won't have to worry about UMD as a Favored Soul. The question now will be which will I like playing more... my superfun Warpriest or the Favored Soul... I'm hoping the Warpriest Prestige enhancements close the gap between FvS and the Cleric.

[Gornn]

I'm not clear on why you guys have mentioned a reduction in damage for the offhand. My GTWF melees use OTWF. They're both drow; one uses rapiers and the other uses scimitars. The scimitar-using Ranger has Mineral/Radiance and the rapier-user is Paladin with two levels of Rogue for Intimidate/UMD. Are you assuming the absence of OTWF?

OTWF does nothing for damage. It benefits + to hit only.

Your strength bonus to damage is halved in your off hand attack. For example. If you had 30 strength. You main hand would get a +10 str bonus to damage, while your off hand gets a +5 bonus to damage.

Nothing currently in the game mitigates that loss of damage.

Oversized TWF affects to hit only. For example.

Wielding a rapier in one hand and nothing in the off hand, you have +20 to hit.

If you have a rapier and a shortsword (light weapon) in your off hand you have two attacks at +18/+18 (because the penalty to hit is -2 while dual wielding with a light weapon in the off hand)

If you wield two rapiers you have +16/+16 to hit (because wielding a one handed weapon in your off hand while dual wielding reduces all attacks by 4.)

If you are wielding two rapiers AND have the OTWF feat you get +18/+18 to hit. (OTWF treats the one handed weapon in your off hand as a light weapon)

[Aranticus]

Okay, I'd like to reply on a couple of things mentioned.

1. Power Attack adds damage to the weapon just like any other damage modifier. I calculated a total damage bonus of 10, 25, and 50 to give a range for comparison. If your bonus to damage is 20 and you turn on power attack for 25 it doesnt make a difference when comparing the two weapons... SO in short the "Power Attack favors Khopesh's" argument is actually false. If you watch, as the damage increases the Khopesh continues to lose ground on its advantage (but still retains one).

false. PA favors the khopesh if both has the same to hit value. with PA, rapier adds (5x13) + (5x6x2) = 125 damage, khopesh adds (5x15) + (5x4x3) = 135 damage

4. There is no logical explaination to bring off-hand weapons into the argument. An offhand weapon will suffer a strength reduction and nothing else. A dual Khopesh user and a dual Rapier user will see the same drop in bonus damage in the offhand. Example: A 30 Str khopesh user may get +25 damage to their mainhand but only +20 damage to their offhand while the rapier user will see +25 / +20 as well. This makes no difference on the calculations nor does it mean elf/drow rapier users will "pull ahead" of khopesh's because they are using two weapons. That is false.

The ONLY time Rapiers "pull ahead" of Khopesh's is when the Khopesh cannot hit on a roll of 2 or higher. Most full BAB classes do not have this problem if properly built.

qft. regardless of how it goes, khopesh > rapier

see red

[Valezra]

false. PA favors the khopesh if both has the same to hit value. with PA, rapier adds (5x13) + (5x6x2) = 125 damage, khopesh adds (5x15) + (5x4x3) = 135 damage

::sigh::

Saying PA "favors" a weapon is no different than saying "hey if you have 2 extra strength that will favor Khopesh over a Rapier". Any modifier you use whether it is Divine Favor, Rage, Strength, Power Attack, etc. will give an overall greater increase in Khopesh DPS than it will in Rapier DPS.

The point to make is: whether or not you are a power attack user the Khopesh will do more damage (unless you are a Scimitar Elf FvS w/ 25 Bonus Damage or less).

By stating "PA favors Khopesh over Rapier" it is implied that not having Power Attack may in some way favor Rapier over Khopesh which is false.

[Angelus_dead]

1. Power Attack adds damage to the weapon just like any other damage modifier.
That sentence is true...


I calculated a total damage bonus of 10, 25, and 50 to give a range for comparison. If your bonus to damage is 20 and you turn on power attack for 25 it doesnt make a difference when comparing the two weapons... SO in short the "Power Attack favors Khopesh's" argument is actually false. If you watch, as the damage increases the Khopesh continues to lose ground on its advantage (but still retains one).
... and that claim is totally wrong.

Power Attack does favor the Khopesh over every other one-handed weapon. If you can't tell that, you need to back up and start thinking harder about what you're supposedly doing.

[Angelus_dead]

By stating "PA favors Khopesh over Rapier" it is implied that not having Power Attack may in some way favor Rapier over Khopesh which is false.
Wrong. It is quite possible that with some combination of bonuses and monster types, Power Attack may make the difference between Khopesh being better or worse.

If someone's strength and other sources of damage bonuses are low, but he has Elf Melee II enhancements, then rapier will be his better choice of weapon. But since the khopesh benefits more from each point of extra damage you gain, adding things such as Power Attack will eventually bring the exotic weapon into the lead.

Why does using the correct "PA favors khopesh" statement matter? Because when a player is deciding what kind of weapon his character should use, whether or not he has Power Attack is one factor that'll make spending the exotic feat on khopesh relatively more attractive. Answering the simple question "Khopesh higher YES/NO" is less useful than providing detailed information on how the weapons react to bonuses.

[rimble]

Okay, I'd like to reply on a couple of things mentioned.

1. Power Attack adds damage to the weapon just like any other damage modifier. I calculated a total damage bonus of 10, 25, and 50 to give a range for comparison. If your bonus to damage is 20 and you turn on power attack for 25 it doesnt make a difference when comparing the two weapons... SO in short the "Power Attack favors Khopesh's" argument is actually false. If you watch, as the damage increases the Khopesh continues to lose ground on its advantage (but still retains one).

But it does skew things if say turning on Power Attack makes the Khopesh hit on a 4-20, while the Rapier user is still hitting on 2-20. I don't know if it matters MUCH or changes things much, but it does matter.


4. There is no logical explaination to bring off-hand weapons into the argument. An offhand weapon will suffer a strength reduction and nothing else. A dual Khopesh user and a dual Rapier user will see the same drop in bonus damage in the offhand. Example: A 30 Str khopesh user may get +25 damage to their mainhand but only +20 damage to their offhand while the rapier user will see +25 / +20 as well. This makes no difference on the calculations nor does it mean elf/drow rapier users will "pull ahead" of khopesh's because they are using two weapons. That is false.

Well it depends on what the Khopesh user off-hands for a small weapon, that's why I asked. A shortsword is a pretty nice small off-hand that augments a Drow perfectly, and a regular Elf a little less-so. If the Khopesh users small off-hand isn't as nice (lower damage dice? worse crit profile? I don't know, again, that's why I asked), it does matter those times you might need to wield a small off-hand for some additional ToHit. Again, ToHit CAN matter. Not everyone is a full BaB class with access to wonderful things like Divine Favor, Weapon Focus/Specialization, Ram's Might, or Rage.


The ONLY time Rapiers "pull ahead" of Khopesh's is when the Khopesh cannot hit on a roll of 2 or higher. Most full BAB classes do not have this problem if properly built.

This should have been another of your assumptions then:

5. Full BAB classes.

Rogues, Bards, Clerics, and Favored Souls (are they full BaB?) try to melee too y'know. And some weird Wizards and Sorcerers. I guess this is wrapped up in your #3 assumption (assuming a hit on 2-20), but it makes the analysis pointless for a lot of situations.

Totally not bagging on you or anything. I don't mean anything rude or offensive, and it should be pretty clear that I don't have a head for calculating things like this myself, just pointing out how difficult a comprehensive comparison becomes once you really start getting into it.

Generally, the best thing to do is come up with a comprehensive build, or builds, and then outfit them in the weapons you're curious about and compare just on that limited case.

[Angelus_dead]

A shortsword is a pretty nice small off-hand that augments a Drow perfectly, and a regular Elf a little less-so. If the Khopesh users small off-hand isn't as nice (lower damage dice? worse crit profile? I don't know, again, that's why I asked), it does matter those times you might need to wield a small off-hand for some additional ToHit.
Yes, offhand can matter for reasons like that.

By the way, the matching light weapon to the Khopesh is Kukri, which is normally superior to either of the offhands matching rapier, due to having the best crit profile. Light Pick nearly matches the kukri's crits, although it gains less from Bloodstone or Smite, while Shortsword has worse crits and can only be preferred against high-AC enemies where the racial attack bonus matters.

Light Pick would be better if you happened to have the Kensai 3 bonus for it, but obviously someone with 18 fighter levels will have enough feat slots for OTWF.

[Valezra]

... and that claim is totally wrong.

Power Attack does favor the Khopesh over every other one-handed weapon. If you can't tell that, you need to back up and start thinking harder about what you're supposedly doing.

Honestly... I've already addressed this.

So you are saying if you don't have power attack it is better to use a rapier? While Power Attack does yeild a greater overall dps increase for the Khopesh than for a Rapier it is no different than any other damage modifier. The statement worded exactly as "Power Attack favors Khopesh over the Rapier" implies so many other things that are blatantly wrong. It is not nearly the whole story and seems to imply that if you are a Power Attack user you should use Khopesh's over Rapiers. I could make the argument "If you cast Divine Favor you should use Khopesh's over Rapiers" or "If your strength is over 10 you should use Khopesh's over Rapiers"... all of which are false because they do not convey the whole story.

A Khopesh user will see a smaller "net gain" from Power Attack than a Rapier user will. Since this isn't sinking in with some people I will show the calcs:

Assumption: Base 20 bonus damage before power attack for example.

Khopesh:
F(20)
Avg Hit = (20+5.5) * (15/20) = 19.125
Avg Crit = (20+5.5+6) * (4/20) * 3 = 18.9
Total = 38.025

F(25)
Avg Hit = (25+5.5) * (15/20) = 22.875
Avg Crit = (25+5.5+6) * (4/20) * 3 = 21.9
Total = 44.775

Khopesh user will see a 17.7% increase by turning on Power Attack.

Rapier:
F(20)
Avg Hit = (20+4.5) * (13/20) = 15.925
Avg Crit = (20+4.5+6) * (6/20) * 2 = 18.3
Total = 34.225

F(25)
Avg Hit = (25+4.5) * (13/20) = 19.175
Avg Crit = (25+4.5+6) * (6/20) * 2 = 21.3
Total = 40.475

Rapier user will see a 18.2% increase by turning on Power Attack.

Now in the world of reality 18.2% is a bigger number than 17.7% which means the rapier user will actually see a bigger net gain from Power Attack than a Khopesh user would. Notice, the khopesh is still doing more damage but it's advantage dropped from 11.1% to 10.6% further pointing out that "Power Attack favors Khopesh over Rapier" is a FALSE argument.

Furthermore the DPS gain of a khopesh diminishes over time until the gain from both the Khopesh and Rapier level out. This is a logrithmic function and taken to infinite bonus damage the Khopesh gain over Rapier is a flat 8% assuming both user hit on a 2 or better.

I'll end this mathematical beating by quoting yourself:


If you can't tell that, you need to back up and start thinking harder about what you're supposedly doing.

[Arkat]

LoL nice...

And thanks for the link... I happened to find it after I asked hehe. 40 Minutes of Shield means I won't have to worry about UMD as a Favored Soul. The question now will be which will I like playing more... my superfun Warpriest or the Favored Soul... I'm hoping the Warpriest Prestige enhancements close the gap between FvS and the Cleric.

Ahhh...but what about the Melee Path FvS PrE that is sure to come? I'm betting lots that the distance between the Melee FvS and a BattleCleric will get even LARGER so that any debate about which is the better melee divine caster will be over without any question.

[Angelus_dead]

5. Full BAB classes.

Rogues, Bards, Clerics, and Favored Souls (are they full BaB?) try to melee too y'know. And some weird Wizards and Sorcerers.
By the way, Clerics and Favs are full BAB, as is any character who really feels like he needs it to hit. For example, melee-focused sorcerers use DP clickies constantly as they melee.

[rimble]

By the way, Clerics and Favs are full BAB, as is any character who really feels like he needs it to hit. For example, melee-focused sorcerers use DP clickies constantly as they melee.

Good point.

[Angelus_dead]

Honestly... I've already addressed this.
Look. Addressing a false statement doesn't stop it from being false every time you repeat it. There are two kinds of damage bonuses in DDO: pre-crit and post-crit.

Post crit bonuses are things like Flaming, Holy, and Sneak Attack. They affect all weapons equally, assuming you had the same chance to hit the target.
Pre crit bonuses include strength, PA, Favored Enemy, and Inspire Courage. They effect some weapons differently, providing a bigger increase on weapons with stronger crit profiles.

Here's a sample of a true statement: The bonus from Sneak Attack is the same whatever weapon you hit with.
Here's a false statement: The bonus from Power Attack is the same whatever weapon you hit with.
As a matter of general principle, we have a problem with spreading false statements.


So you are saying if you don't have power attack it is better to use a rapier?
No. We're saying that "PA favors khopesh" is a true statement, as opposed to you who say it's a false statement.


The statement worded exactly as "Power Attack favors Khopesh over the Rapier" implies so many other things that are blatantly wrong.
No. Everything it implies is true.

[Gornn]

Khopesh:
F(20)
Avg Hit = (20+5.5) * (15/20) = 19.125
Avg Crit = (20+5.5+6) * (4/20) * 3 = 18.9
Total = 38.025

F(25)
Avg Hit = (25+5.5) * (15/20) = 22.875
Avg Crit = (25+5.5+6) * (4/20) * 3 = 21.9
Total = 44.775

Khopesh user will see a 17.7% increase by turning on Power Attack.

Rapier:
F(20)
Avg Hit = (20+4.5) * (13/20) = 15.925
Avg Crit = (20+4.5+6) * (6/20) * 2 = 18.3
Total = 34.225

F(25)
Avg Hit = (25+4.5) * (13/20) = 19.175
Avg Crit = (25+4.5+6) * (6/20) * 2 = 21.3
Total = 40.475

Snip

Hey don't jump on me for asking this question, as I'm not really great at equations.

Because the Khopesh has a more favourable crit range 17-20/x3 over the rapier 15-20/x2

Doesn't every increase in base number favour the khopesh? Power attack for example. Divine favour.

Why doesn't the gap widen because although the khopesh crits 10% less, it crits 33% harder? Wouldn't that number mean that a bigger damage modifier is better for the khopesh?

Are you sure the math is right?

Really I'm not trying to attack you. As I said math isn't my strength and Im genuinley wondering. Thanks.

[Valezra]

Hey don't jump on me for asking this question, as I'm not really great at equations.

Because the Khopesh has a more favourable crit range 17-20/x3 over the rapier 15-20/x2

Doesn't every increase in base number favour the khopesh? Power attack for example. Divine favour.

Why doesn't the gap widen because although the khopesh crits 10% less, it crits 33% harder? Wouldn't that number mean that a bigger damage modifier is better for the khopesh?

Are you sure the math is right?

Really I'm not trying to attack you. As I said math isn't my strength and Im genuinley wondering. Thanks.

Good question. But you are a little off on your numbers. The khopesh actually crits 33% less often and 33% harder thus equaling the rapier in crit damage. The reason the Khopesh always does more damage is because it achieved the same crit damage with 2 fewer swings.

[Valezra]

Look. Addressing a false statement doesn't stop it from being false every time you repeat it. There are two kinds of damage bonuses in DDO: pre-crit and post-crit.

Post crit bonuses are things like Flaming, Holy, and Sneak Attack. They affect all weapons equally, assuming you had the same chance to hit the target.
Pre crit bonuses include strength, PA, Favored Enemy, and Inspire Courage. They effect some weapons differently, providing a bigger increase on weapons with stronger crit profiles.

Here's a sample of a true statement: The bonus from Sneak Attack is the same whatever weapon you hit with.
Here's a false statement: The bonus from Power Attack is the same whatever weapon you hit with.
As a matter of general principle, we have a problem with spreading false statements.

No. We're saying that "PA favors khopesh" is a true statement, as opposed to you who say it's a false statement.


No. Everything it implies is true.


Wow... didn't even address the math which completely proves you wrong. ::golf clap::

I have proven that Power Attack actually increases the Rapier users DPS more than it does the Khopesh user and actually reduces the Khopesh users advantage over the Rapier user. You continue to spread false statements because... what... it just feels right?

[Gornn]

Good question. But you are a little off on your numbers. The khopesh actually crits 33% less often and 33% harder thus equaling the rapier in crit damage. The reason the Khopesh always does more damage is because it achieved the same crit damage with 2 fewer swings.

I guess I just don't get it.

I thought each number on a d20 is equal to 5%

[Arkat]

Honestly... I've already addressed this.

So you are saying if you don't have power attack it is better to use a rapier? While Power Attack does yeild a greater overall dps increase for the Khopesh than for a Rapier it is no different than any other damage modifier. The statement worded exactly as "Power Attack favors Khopesh over the Rapier" implies so many other things that are blatantly wrong. It is not nearly the whole story and seems to imply that if you are a Power Attack user you should use Khopesh's over Rapiers. I could make the argument "If you cast Divine Favor you should use Khopesh's over Rapiers" or "If your strength is over 10 you should use Khopesh's over Rapiers"... all of which are false because they do not convey the whole story.

A Khopesh user will see a smaller "net gain" from Power Attack than a Rapier user will. Since this isn't sinking in with some people I will show the calcs:

Assumption: Base 20 bonus damage before power attack for example.

Khopesh:
F(20)
Avg Hit = (20+5.5) * (15/20) = 19.125
Avg Crit = (20+5.5+6) * (4/20) * 3 = 18.9
Total = 38.025

F(25)
Avg Hit = (25+5.5) * (15/20) = 22.875
Avg Crit = (25+5.5+6) * (4/20) * 3 = 21.9
Total = 44.775

Khopesh user will see a 17.7% increase by turning on Power Attack.

Rapier:
F(20)
Avg Hit = (20+4.5) * (13/20) = 15.925
Avg Crit = (20+4.5+6) * (6/20) * 2 = 18.3
Total = 34.225

F(25)
Avg Hit = (25+4.5) * (13/20) = 19.175
Avg Crit = (25+4.5+6) * (6/20) * 2 = 21.3
Total = 40.475

Rapier user will see a 18.2% increase by turning on Power Attack.

Now in the world of reality 18.2% is a bigger number than 17.7% which means the rapier user will actually see a bigger net gain from Power Attack than a Khopesh user would. Notice, the khopesh is still doing more damage but it's advantage dropped from 11.1% to 10.6% further pointing out that "Power Attack favors Khopesh over Rapier" is a FALSE argument.

Furthermore the DPS gain of a khopesh diminishes over time until the gain from both the Khopesh and Rapier level out. This is a logrithmic function and taken to infinite bonus damage the Khopesh gain over Rapier is a flat 8% assuming both user hit on a 2 or better.

I'll end this mathematical beating by quoting yourself:

I like the way you think Val.

+1 Rep for you.

[Valezra]

I guess I just don't get it.

I thought each number on a d20 is equal to 5%

Right, so a Khopesh can crit on 17, 18, 19, and 20 which is a 20% chance to crit. The rapier can crit on a 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, and 20 which is a 30% chance to crit. So the Rapier actually crits 50% more than the Khopesh but the Khopesh crits 50% harder (ie x3 for Khopesh vs x2 for rapier). So in the end the multiplied damage for khopesh crits is 4 (rolls 17 to 20) X 3 = 12. And the rapier is 6 (rolls 15-20) X 2 = 12.

12=12

Hope that helps :)

[Valezra]

I like the way you think Val.

+1 Rep for you.

Thanks man... it's so tough explaining math to some people. I didn't have this much trouble when I tutored math in college hehe :D

[Angelus_dead]

Because the Khopesh has a more favourable crit range 17-20/x3 over the rapier 15-20/x2
Actually how you compare it is to multiply the critical threat range times the critical addition, which is equal to the crit mult minus 1. So rapier is 6*(2-1) = 6, and khopesh is 4*(3-1) = 8.


Doesn't every increase in base number favour the khopesh? Power attack for example. Divine favour.
Yes, they do, along with strength, bard song, favored enemy, weapon spec, and everything else not expressed as d6s (or other dice).


Why doesn't the gap widen because although the khopesh crits 10% less, it crits 33% harder? Wouldn't that number mean that a bigger damage modifier is better for the khopesh?
1. The gap does widen, but that can be hidden if you divide it by the prior number. For example, if I make 50k/year and you make 20k, if I get a 1k bonus and you get 500 then the gap between us has widened. But expressed as a fraction of your starting salary, your bonus was bigger than mine.

2. It's incorrect to say khopesh crits "33% harder". You could either look at it as 3 / 2 = 150%, or as (3-1)/(2-1) = 200% more.

Here's a tip for analysis: You'll get results that make more sense if you treat crit multipliers as 1 less than they're written as. That way you can assume that all weapons get 19 normal hits on rolls from 2 to 20, and also additional critical damage on high rolls. That way you don't need to subtract the damage of a normal hit whenever the weapon reaches a crit.

[Arkat]

Right, so a Khopesh can crit on 17, 18, 19, and 20 which is a 20% chance to crit. The rapier can crit on a 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, and 20 which is a 30% chance to crit. So the Rapier actually crits 50% more than the Khopesh but the Khopesh crits 50% harder (ie x3 for Khopesh vs x2 for rapier). So in the end the multiplied damage for khopesh crits is 4 (rolls 17 to 20) X 3 = 12. And the rapier is 6 (rolls 15-20) X 2 = 12.

12=12

Hope that helps :)

Yeah and when a Khopesh rolls a 15 or 16, it's those two swings of normal damage the khopesh gets over a rapier/scimitar.

[Angelus_dead]

Thanks man... it's so tough explaining math to some people. I didn't have this much trouble when I tutored math in college hehe :D
Maybe this will help:

Say I'm comparing Bastard Sword and Khopesh. Which one is more favored by Power Attack??

[Valezra]

Here, do this:

Say I'm comparing Bastard Sword and Khopesh. Which one is more favored by Power Attack??

Run the calcs and find out.

[Valezra]

Yeah and when a Khopesh rolls a 15 or 16, it's those two swings of normal damage the khopesh gets over a rapier/scimitar.

Exactly!

[Arkat]

Thanks man... it's so tough explaining math to some people. I didn't have this much trouble when I tutored math in college hehe :D

I here ya man. Trying to explain stuff on the internet in a forum or an email can be maddening.

It's much easier to explain stuff with real-time interaction with people. It's why I'd rather call someone than text them.

[rimble]

Run the calcs and find out.

Aww, don't abandon useful discourse, some of us dummies are trying to follow along and understand too.

[Valezra]

Actually how you compare it is to multiply the critical threat range times the critical addition, which is equal to the crit mult minus 1. So rapier is 6*(2-1) = 6, and khopesh is 4*(3-1) = 8.

Here's a tip for analysis: You'll get results that make more sense if you treat crit multipliers as 1 less than they're written as. That way you can assume that all weapons get 19 normal hits on rolls from 2 to 20, and also additional critical damage on high rolls. That way you don't need to subtract the damage of a normal hit whenever the weapon reaches a crit.

This is just a more complicated way of explaining that rapiers and khopeshes both have total crit damage multipliers of 12 but the khopesh gets two extra normal hits in.

The reason to avoid subtracting 1 from the crit multiplier is because it skews the khopesh towards that 8>6 rational which gives the impression that a Khopesh will benefit more on its crits per bonus damage than a rapier will which is incorrect. In fact if you go to the OP you will see that the Khopesh's strength is not in the total crit multiplication but in its smaller threat range allowing 2 more normal hits in the calculations.

[Valezra]

Aww, don't abandon useful discourse, some of us dummies are trying to follow along and understand too.

Alright fine...

Bastard Sword: 1d10 (17-20/X2) <Assuming Keen>

F(20)
Avg Hit = (20+5.5) * (15/20) = 19.125
Avg Crit = (20+5.5+6) * (4/20) * 2 = 12.6
Total = 31.725

F(25)
Avg Hit = (25+5.5) * (15/20) = 22.875
Avg Crit = (25+5.5+6) * (4/20) * 2 = 14.6
Total = 37.475

18.1% gain. Which means that even a Bastard Sword gets a greater net gain from Power Attack than a Khopesh does.

To put this issue to rest lets calc a Light Hammer w/ IC:Bludgeoning:

F(20)
Avg Hit = (20+2.5) * (17/20) = 19.125
Avg Crit = (20+2.5+6) * (2/20) * 2 = 5.7
Total = 24.825

F(25)
Avg Hit = (25+2.5) * (17/20) = 23.375
Avg Crit = (25+2.5+6) * (2/20) * 2 = 6.7
Total = 30.075

21.1% gain. This totally debunks the statement made earlier that Power Attack Favors Khopeshs over all other weapons. In fact because of the Khopesh's best threat range/multiplier/base damage combinitation it benefits the least from Power Attack.

[rimble]

Alright fine...

Looks like one of you is making an absolute statement, and the other relative.

Light Hammer is 5.25 better with PA.
Bastard Sword is 5.75 better with PA.
Rapier is 6.25 better with PA.
Khopesh is 6.75 better with PA.

So in a relative sense, Light Hammer gains the most damage with PA compared to a Light Hammer without PA.

However, in an absolute sense, Khopesh sees the largest gain in damage.

Just seems like a semantic disagreement to me.

[Angelus_dead]

18.1% gain. Which means that even a Bastard Sword gets a greater net gain from Power Attack than a Khopesh does.
...
21.1% gain. This totally debunks the statement made earlier that Power Attack Favors Khopeshs over all other weapons. In fact because of the Khopesh's best threat range/multiplier/base damage combinitation it benefits the least from Power Attack.
You don't see what I did there?

Ok, I'll explain:
When you applied your reasoning to comparing Bastard vs Khopesh, you got the conclusion that "bastard benefits more from PA than khopesh does". That is an obviously false result, which demonstrates that your chain of reasoning is incorrect. It helps illustrate that your statement regarding rapiers and khopesh was also incorrect, because applying it to another comparison produces an even more absurd result.

The realistic and useful way to view it is to say that khopesh gains more from PA than rapier, and even more than bastard, because the +5 bonus from the feat gives those weapons 6.75, 6.25, and 5.75 additional per-attack damage, respectively.

The only reason you're able to create the illusion that Bastard gains more is because it had already gained less from every other damage bonus, so it was in a worse position to start from.

[gfunk]

Here is a chart I threw together summarizing some of the things talked about here. Sorry that im not including the math, however it would take up way too much space and the math in this thread looks good anyways. All calcs assume that tier III is also a damaging tier (note that effects are not effected by fortification which helps favor the khopesh)

http://i621.photobucket.com/albums/tt297/cratonic/rapiervskhopesh.jpg

I would say that PA favors khopesh because it gains more damage per swing as damage modifier increases (i.e. it has a steeper slope).

[Valezra]

You don't see what I did there?

Ok, I'll explain:
When you applied your reasoning to comparing Bastard vs Khopesh, you got the conclusion that "bastard benefits more from PA than khopesh does". That is an obviously false result, which demonstrates that your chain of reasoning is incorrect. It helps illustrate that your statement regarding rapiers and khopesh was also incorrect, because applying it to another comparison produces an even more absurd result.

The realistic and useful way to view it is to say that khopesh gains more from PA than rapier, and even more than bastard, because the +5 bonus from the feat gives those weapons 6.75, 6.25, and 5.75 additional per-attack damage, respectively.

The only reason you're able to create the illusion that Bastard gains more is because it had already gained less from every other damage bonus, so it was in a worse position to start from.

So then if you have two identical builds and one is using Khopesh and the other is using Bastards Swords and they both turn on Power Attack which player does Power Attack benefit more?

Answer: the Bastard Sword user. This is not an illusion it is a mathematical fact which I find amusing you cannot refute nor will you address.

Surely the Khopesh user does more overall DPS than all other weapon types. However, the BS user will see a greater net gain in DPS than the Khopesh user will by increasing the bonus damage. Just like Rapiers vs Khopesh's this is a logrithmic function and will eventually level out to be a certain % difference. It's just a fact. No illusion.

It may be an issue of Semantics but when you state: "Power Attack does favor the Khopesh over every other one-handed weapon." you create a misleading statement which analyzed from the benefit-to-player perspective (which is the only one that really matters in day-to-day play) Power Attack actually benefits all non-Khopesh users more than it benefits the Khopesh users. I've already proven this...

Please just STOP spreading so much misinformation. Show me some overall DPS calcs proving me wrong otherwise I'm done responding to "feels right" statements that aren't backed up in any way.

[Thucydides04]

Nice calculations! Just a couple quick things I didn't see mentioned that some may want to keep in mind.

I use rapiers on my finesse builds so I can generate a high AC with good dps, however, with a strength built melee I use khops for the big damage. So keep in mind that a rapier swinging elf dex build is not in the same league as as a twinked out barb with 50+ str... And I know with all the add-ons and enhancements it is possible to get the rapier swinging elf close, but lets face it, if your AC build has a triple proc'd scoiurge choker and double madstone going, maybe he isn't an AC build. With my AC ranger, I can get his ac into the 80s vs. a favored enemy, and there is no way that gear is going to proc often enough for me to even rely on for a small boost let alone the full gamut.

Oh, and btw, the Bastard Sword and DWaxe do the same dps (roughly) yet Bastard Swords can be had for pennies compared to dwxes, just a thought when for those budget minded or for advising guildies who are newer and may not have the funds to aquire good weapons.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=2171300#post2171300

[rimble]

Nice calculations! Just a couple quick things I didn't see mentioned that some may want to keep in mind.

Yeah, when I've really gotten into it before I've ended up with something that looks alot like gfunk is showing (and the math was showing too, pictures are just more readily apparent) and when solely considering damage, it comes down to do I want to spend a Feat, or Enhancement points? Because really, they're usually close enough for me not to care. Though other considerations certainly affect the final decision.

[Thanimal]

This is just a more complicated way of explaining that rapiers and khopeshes both have total crit damage multipliers of 12 but the khopesh gets two extra normal hits in.

The reason to avoid subtracting 1 from the crit multiplier is because it skews the khopesh towards that 8>6 rational which gives the impression that a Khopesh will benefit more on its crits per bonus damage than a rapier will which is incorrect. In fact if you go to the OP you will see that the Khopesh's strength is not in the total crit multiplication but in its smaller threat range allowing 2 more normal hits in the calculations.

I'm about 95% sure that A_D is right here. I had previously thought the way you do, Valezra, and Borror0 straightened me out.

Both weapons have the same base -- the only difference is the extra damage that occurs on a critical. The extra damage of a Khopesh is double the base damage, and the extra damage of a Rapier is equal to the base damage. So the criticals add to the expected value as follows:

Khopesh: 20% * 2*base = +40% of base damage
Rapier: 30% * base = +30% of base damage

Thus every increase in base damage (such as Power Attack) actually increases the gap between Khopesh and Rapier.

These numbers are unintuitive (at least they were to me), but a good way to see it is to run the numbers vs. 100% Fort (i.e. no crits) and against 0% Fort. What you'll see is that Khopesh always increase by 1.4x when Fort is turned off and that Rapier always increases by 1.3x when Fort is turned off. This shows the "critical power" of Khopesh is indeed greater, and then all increases to base damage widen the gap between Khopesh and Rapier.

EDIT: I SEE IT NOW! It's a semantic difference, which was actually pointed out by rimble. Valezra is showing us that the percent increase in damage for adding on a flat boost is greater for the worse weapon. That's true, but very misleading, because what we should care about is the DPS gap between the two weapons, and that is widening as the base damage goes up. gfunk's chart show this most clearly.

[Valezra]

Here is a chart I threw together summarizing some of the things talked about here. Sorry that im not including the math, however it would take up way too much space and the math in this thread looks good anyways. All calcs assume that tier III is also a damaging tier (note that effects are not effected by fortification which helps favor the khopesh)

http://i621.photobucket.com/albums/tt297/cratonic/rapiervskhopesh.jpg

I would say that PA favors khopesh because it gains more damage per swing as damage modifier increases (i.e. it has a steeper slope).

I like the charts. We are getting hung up on semantics though. I can see that clearly now. What I would like to see are these charts set up to show 4 things:

1. Khopesh w/o PA
2. Khopesh w/ PA
3. Rapier w/o PA
4. Rapier w/ PA

Then a log chart showing the delta slope between 1 & 2 and between 3 & 4. That final chart should show that the rapier's slope increased a greater percent than the khopesh's meaning the rapier benefited more than the khopesh did.

Again it's all semantics. Khopesh has superior stats and will benefit more and yeild greater results from most things. But from the perspective of the guy considering respeccing to Khopesh from Rapiers because he wants to use Power Attack it's not a valid statement. Switch to Khopesh just because they are overall better.

[gfunk]

Surely the Khopesh user does more overall DPS than all other weapon types. However, the BS user will see a greater net gain in DPS than the Khopesh user will by increasing the bonus damage. Just like Rapiers vs Khopesh's this is a logrithmic function and will eventually level out to be a certain % difference. It's just a fact. No illusion....

The bastard sword sees a larger % gain, however it sees a lesser absolute gain (khopesh gains ~6.75 points per swing vs the rapier which gains 6.25 points). The percentage gain also decreases (for both weapons) as overall damage modifiers increase (because PA makes up a smaller portion of the total damage modifier). As a result, the bastard sword continues to fall behind

[Valezra]

I'm about 95% sure that A_D is right here. I had previously thought the way you do, Valezra, and Borror0 straightened me out.

Both weapons have the same base -- the only difference is the extra damage that occurs on a critical. The extra damage of a Khopesh is double the base damage, and the extra damage of a Rapier is equal to the base damage. So the criticals add to the expected value as follows:

Khopesh: 20% * 2*base = +40% of base damage
Rapier: 30% * base = +30% of base damage

Thus every increase in base damage (such as Power Attack) actually increases the gap between Khopesh and Rapier.

These numbers are unintuitive (at least they were to me), but a good way to see it is to run the numbers vs. 100% Fort (i.e. no crits) and against 0% Fort. What you'll see is that Khopesh always increase by 1.4x when Fort is turned off and that Rapier always increases by 1.3x when Fort is turned off. This shows the "critical power" of Khopesh is indeed greater, and then all increases to base damage widen the gap between Khopesh and Rapier.

Yeah its just two different ways of making the same calculation. I prefer one way, others prefer another... we'll all end up at the same place ;)

[Angelus_dead]

This is not an illusion it is a mathematical fact which I find amusing you cannot refute nor will you address.
Wrong. Not only can I refute it, but I already did, and repeatedly.


Surely the Khopesh user does more overall DPS than all other weapon types. However, the BS user will see a greater net gain in DPS than the Khopesh user will by increasing the bonus damage.
Simply wrong. If turning on PA gives a Bastard user +8.72 DPS, then it will give an equivalent Khopesh user +10.23 DPS.

The khopesh gains 1.51 more DPS than the bastard. Since 1.51 is greater than zero, the khopesh gained more net DPS than did the bastard, and your claim is unambiguously wrong.

[Angelus_dead]

Yeah its just two different ways of making the same calculation. I prefer one way, others prefer another... we'll all end up at the same place ;)
The version that others prefer is the useful one, as opposed to the misleading one.

Example:
Dev 1: "Hey Bob, we have a problem in DDO. The players never train the Bastard sword feat, and instead all gravitate to the Khopesh. How can we balance those weapons?"

Dev 2: "Well Alice, let's give Fighters an enhancement for +5 damage when Power Attacking with an exotic weapon. I've read that Power Attack favors Bastard sword, so this will make that weapon relatively more attractive"

Players: "Sweet, Khopesh roolz 4ever!"

[Valezra]

The bastard sword sees a larger % gain, however it sees a lesser absolute gain (khopesh gains ~6.75 points per swing vs the Bastard sword which gains 6.25 points). The percentage gain also decreases (for both weapons) as overall damage modifiers increase (because PA makes up a smaller portion of the total damage modifier). As a result, the bastard sword continues to fall behind

Actually the graphs prove that the % difference between the two does in fact level out.

Look at the top right chart for example:

@ modifier(30):
Human Rapier DPS = 59.5
Khopesh DPS = 64.5

At this point the Khopesh is doing 8.4% more damage.

@ modifier(50):
Human Rapier DPS = 82
Khopesh DPS = 87

At this point the Khopesh is doing 6.1 % more damage.

As the modifier increase its DPS gap increases but it's "Advantage" over the rapier decreases until it levels out. I'm guessing the advantage stops somewhere around 6%. Without Teir I and Teir III effects this advantage stops at 8%.

So stating it "continues to fall behind" is true when discussin overall damage but not true when comparing the weapons as a percentage of eachother.

[Valezra]

The version that others prefer is the useful one, as opposed to the misleading one.

Example:
Dev 1: "Hey Bob, we have a problem in DDO. The players never train the Bastard sword feat, and instead all gravitate to the Khopesh. How can we balance those weapons?"

Dev 2: "Well Alice, let's give Fighters an enhancement for +5 damage when Power Attacking with an exotic weapon. I've read that Power Attack favors Bastard sword, so this will make that weapon relatively more attractive"

Players: "Sweet, Khopesh roolz 4ever!"

LOL now your just dribbling nonsense. Cool.

[Leyoni]

So then if you have two identical builds and one is using Khopesh and the other is using Bastards Swords and they both turn on Power Attack which player does Power Attack benefit more?

Answer: the Bastard Sword user.

OK, assume that the maths are all correct and that your conclusion is correct.

If I understand it is still an apples and oranges comparison.

While the bastard sword user gains more (sees a larger increase) using PA, the kopesh user still produces more damage in total.

It is this "damage in total" that is the real bottom line.

As rimble points out, "Looks like one of you is making an absolute statement, and the other relative."

Relative to one another (apples comparison) the bsword benefits more from PA.

Absolute to one another (oranges comparison) the kopesh causes more damage (both w & w/o PA).

Some people are intrigued by the apples comparison. However, that doesn't justify taking a poorer weapon choice (especially bsword which uses an exotic feat) over a better weapon choice. Kopesh is clearly the better weapon choice if a character is using a feat to obtain it.

The more meaningful discussion is in the area of weapons when no additional feat is selected.

For example, daxe for dwarves -- does it out perform other martial weapons (specifically lsword or rapier)? Note that most people don't care about the relative (apples) comparison. They are looking for the bottom line, absolute (oranges) comparison.

[Angelus_dead]

LOL now your just dribbling nonsense. Cool.
Just because you can't personally understand something doesn't prove that it's wrong.

[gfunk]

Then a log chart showing the delta slope between 1 & 2 and between 3 & 4. That final chart should show that the rapier's slope increased a greater percent than the khopesh's meaning the rapier benefited more than the khopesh did..

here is just the delta chart (I excluded weapon effects because it mutes the % difference). The percent increase (and relative difference) diminishes as overall damage modifier increases. The important thing though (imo) is the absolute gain, and not the percent gain.
http://i621.photobucket.com/albums/tt297/cratonic/percentincrease.jpg

[Angelus_dead]

As rimble points out, "Looks like one of you is making an absolute statement, and the other relative."
Relative to one another (apples comparison) the bsword benefits more from PA.
Actually if you do it relative to one another, khopesh benefits more.

If you want to reach a conclusion that Bastard benefits more, what you do is compare it proportionately relative to the same weapon:

(Bastard and PA) / (Bastard no PA) > (Khopesh and PA) / (Khopesh no PA)

However, it's not tactically valid to use the same weapon without PA as the dividend. That doesn't come to a meaningful result. Instead you should either use a unit, or the hitpoints of your enemy.


For example, daxe for dwarves -- does it out perform other martial weapons (specifically lsword or rapier)?
Yes, that's a useful kind of question.

From the sensible perspective, rapier benefits more from PA (and other damage bonuses) than axe does. That means that even for a dwarf with the axe enhancements, if he gets enough sources of other bonuses then eventually rapier will become his best choice for a weapon. But if you believed Valerza's claim that khopesh gains less than bastard, that would also imply that rapier gains less than axe, and at some point you'd make the wrong choice about what weapon to hold.

[Borror0]

LOL now your just dribbling nonsense. Cool.
He's only demonstrating to what your position logically lead to.

Of course it does not make any sense! That's because saying that PA favors bastard swords is false.

Bastard Sword: 5*15/20+5*4/20*2= 5.75
Khopesh: 5*15/20+5*4/20*3= 6.75

If we want to throw rapier in there:
5*13/20+5*6/20*2= 6.25

A khopesh users gain 1 point of damage per hit than bastard swords users and 0.50 more per hit than rapier users.

[gfunk]

Bastard Sword: 5*15/20+5*4/20*2= 5.75
Khopesh: 5*15/20+5*4/20*3= 6.75

If we want to throw rapier in there:
5*13/20+5*6/20*2= 6.25

A khopesh users gain 1 point of damage per hit than bastard swords users and 0.50 more per hit than rapier users.

agreed, this is how I feel it should be viewed as well.

[Valezra]

When comparing weapons shouldn't we divide them by eachother? If one person states: "Khopeshes are better than Rapiers." And the other person asks, "How much better?" Wouldn't we divide the Khopesh's DPS by the Rapiers to see how much better?

Take Bonus Damage to an extreme... say 1000 bonus damage:

Khopesh:
F(1000)
Avg Hit = (1000+5.5) * (15/20) = 754.125
Avg Crit = (1000+5.5+6) * (4/20) * 3 = 606.9
Total = 1361.025

Rapier:
F(1000)
Avg Hit = (1000+4.5) * (13/20) = 652.925
Avg Crit = (1000+4.5+6) * (6/20) * 2 = 606.3
Total = 1259.225

1361.025/1259.225 = 1.081 ~or~ 8.1%. For weapons that have identical crit math the percent gain eventually levels out to the (non-threat range+crit total multiplier) of one weapon divided by the (non-threat range+crit total multiplier) of the other. So (15+12)/(13+12) = 1.08 ~or~ 8%. This is a math proof and can be quickly done for any weapon. For Khopesh vs Rapier the Khopesh advantage eventually DOES level out to 8%. This is the same reason why I like to keep the total crit multiplier at 12 because it helps do the proof.

Of course this percent may vary depending on weapon effects but will always level out.

Those graphs may appear linear but they are not. They are slightly curved.

[Valezra]

He's only demonstrating to what your position logically lead to.

Of course it does not make any sense! That's because saying that PA favors bastard swords is false.

Bastard Sword: 5*15/20+5*4/20*2= 5.75
Khopesh: 5*15/20+5*4/20*3= 6.75

If we want to throw rapier in there:
5*13/20+5*6/20*2= 6.25

A khopesh users gain 1 point of damage per hit than bastard swords users and 0.50 more per hit than rapier users.

I actually never stated "PA favors bastard swords". I said PA helps the BS user improve his own net gain more than it helps the Khopesh user improve his net gain which is true. I totally agree that a Khopesh user will do more damage for every bonus damage gained than any other weapon. I just don't care for the semantics of stating one thing "favors" something over another. I find it to only be a partial story.

gfunk thank you for the last graph. That explains what I was talking about. The convergance of benefit.

We are all talking about the same thing and agreeing on the math. Let's just stop arguing about the semantics. We each have our preference. I just want people to realize that once you reach convergance that's it. At high bonus damage the Khopesh user WILL see a greater benefit from PA than a rapier user would but that benefit does not continue to grow... it caps out at around 8% depending on effects.

[tinyelvis]

The title of this thread should be base damage of blah blah blah

Though I applaud your work, don't you need to factor in all potential modifiers to damage and critical damage. If not you will not get a complete picture. In essence you show only base damage. Only crappy melee toons do that. Besides, you don't need calculate this, isn't it printed on every weapon?

[Valezra]

The title of this thread should be base damage of blah blah blah

Though I applaud your work, don't you need to factor in all potential modifiers to damage and critical damage. If not you will not get a complete picture. In essence you show only base damage. Only crappy melee toons do that. Besides, you don't need calculate this, isn't it printed on every weapon?

The majority of one's DPS comes from the base damage + modifiers and not effects.

DPS is not printed on every weapon. That is in WoW I think.

[Angelus_dead]

I actually never stated "PA favors bastard swords".
Yeah...

So then if you have two identical builds and one is using Khopesh and the other is using Bastards Swords and they both turn on Power Attack which player does Power Attack benefit more?

Answer: the Bastard Sword user.

[Monkey_Archer]

Khopesh:
1d10 Base for Greensteel = 5.5 Avg

F(10):
Avg Hit = (10+5.5) * (15/20) = 11.625
Avg Crit = (10+5.5+6) * (4/20) * 3 = 12.9
Total = 24.525

F(25):
Avg Hit = (25+5.5) * (15/20) = 22.875
Avg Crit = (25+5.5+6) * (4/20) * 3 = 21.9
Total = 44.775

F(50):
Avg Hit = (50+5.5) * (15/20) = 41.625
Avg Crit = (50+5.5+6) * (4/20) * 3 = 36.9
Total = 78.525


Rapier (and Scimitar for Elf):
1d8 Base for Greensteel = 4.5 Avg

F(10):
Avg Hit = (10+4.5) * (13/20) = 9.425
Avg Crit = (10+4.5+6) * (6/20) * 2 = 12.3
Total = 21.725

F(10) elf/drow:
Avg Hit = (10+4.5+2) * (13/20) = 10.725
Avg Crit = (10+4.5+2+6) * (6/20) * 2 = 13.5
Total = 24.225

F(25):
Avg Hit = (25+4.5) * (13/20) = 19.175
Avg Crit = (25+4.5+6) * (6/20) * 2 = 21.3
Total = 40.725

F(25) elf/drow:
Avg Hit = (25+4.5+2) * (13/20) = 20.475
Avg Crit = (25+4.5+2+6) * (6/20) * 2 = 22.5
Total = 42.975

F(50):
Avg Hit = (50+4.5) * (13/20) = 35.425
Avg Crit = (50+4.5+6) * (6/20) * 2 = 36.3
Total = 71.725

F(50) elf/drow:
Avg Hit = (50+4.5+2) * (13/20) = 36.725
Avg Crit = (50+4.5+2+6) * (6/20) * 2 = 37.5
Total = 74.225



I know im late here... but i think the original numbers say everything (almost :D)

Every increase in base damage benefits the khopesh more (including powerattack) as shown by the original numbers (or gfunk's pretty pictures :))

Fortification affect rapiers the most (since khopesh has a higher base damage) but affects the khopesh more then drow/elf rapiers (since drow/elf rapiers have a higher base damage)

Besides the theoretical best case scenario, in game and character building situations often benfit the drow/elf rapier more then the khopesh

Namely 2 situations:
1) When ac matters, drow/elf rapiers have +2 to hit
2) when feats are scarce, Drow/Elf can substitue khopesh for oversized twf, giving an additional +2 to hit, or forcing the khopesh user to use kukris

Situation 1: (Khopesh hits on a 4+, Rapier hits on a 2+)


Khopesh:
F(10):
Avg Hit = (10+5.5) * (13/20) = 10.075
Avg Crit = (10+5.5+6) * (4/20) * 3 = 12.9
Total = 22.975

F(25):
Avg Hit = (25+5.5) * (13/20) = 19.825
Avg Crit = (25+5.5+6) * (4/20) * 3 = 21.9
Total = 41.725

F(50):
Avg Hit = (50+5.5) * (13/20) = 36.075
Avg Crit = (50+5.5+6) * (4/20) * 3 = 36.9
Total = 72.975

At F(10) Drow/Elf rapier does ~5% more damage
At F(25) Drow/Elf rapier does ~3% more damage
At F(50) Drow/Elf rapier does ~2% more damage

Situation 2 (Khopesh taking offhand penalties, or using kukris) would have the khopesh even further behind


In other terms:
Khopesh = 5*13/20+5*4/20*3= 6.25
Rapier = 5*13/20+5*6/20*2= 6.25

But then the rapier gains more from seeker bonuses

[Borror0]

This is the same reason why I like to keep the total crit multiplier at 12 because it helps do the proof.
There's one problem with that, your formula is wrong!

To calculate the effect that critical hits have on DPS, you seem to use the formula critical_multiplier*threat_range. However, that formula is the wrong one. The correct formula is (19+threat_range*(critical_multiplier-1))/20 as it can easily be demonstrated.

According to your formula, rapiers and khopeshes are equal:
2*6=12
4*3=12

However, that's false.

If we were to put both weapons under similar situations, we would run into:
100*15/20+100*4/20*3=135
100*13/20+100*6/20*2=125

Not equal, unlike what your formula suggest.

If we use my formula, we end up with:
(19+4*(3-1))/20=1.35
(19+6*(2-1))/20=1.25

As you can see, this lead to the correct presentation of reality. This is the correct model.

[tinyelvis]

I'm sorry, my mistake, you did apply bonuses in your calculations. Good job.

I didn't say DPS was written on weapons, but rather base damage. DDO calls this base damage rating.

[Angelus_dead]

gfunk thank you for the last graph. That explains what I was talking about. The convergance of benefit.
It does not converge.
The benefit diverges.
It diverges by eventually 8%.


At high bonus damage the Khopesh user WILL see a greater benefit from PA than a rapier user would but that benefit does not continue to grow... it caps out at around 8% depending on effects.
No, it does continue to grow. 8% faster improvement is "continued growth". I wonder what definition of "growth" you could be using that would exclude an 8% faster improvement rate?

The bigger your damage bonus is, the more important it becomes to use khopesh. At low damage bonuses, the superior critical power of the khopesh can sometimes be outweighed by other factors like racial attack or damage enhancements. But if we get a +100 Inspire Courage or otherwise reach very high damage levels, then the choice of which weapon is best becomes more and more clear-cut.

[Angelus_dead]

There's one problem with that, your formula is wrong!

To calculate the effect that critical hits have on DPS, you seem to use the formula critical_multiplier*threat_range. However, that formula is the wrong one. The correct formula is (19+threat_range*(critical_multiplier-1))/20 as it can easily be demonstrated.
His formula isn't wrong if you come in later and subtract a number of normal hits equal to the number of crits you got.

That's a more complicated way to look at it, because it requires an extra arithmetic step, and it also means it's not valid to divide two critical damages to quickly compare two weapons. In short, he's using a less-parsimonious variable definition (which is consistent with the D&D and DDO terminology). That is a violation of Occam's Razor, and it makes conclusions a little more difficult to see clearly.

(I already explained that it was more complicated, but he disagreed (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2292968&postcount=43))

[Thucydides04]

Yeah...

he did not say that pa benfits the bastard sword more, it benfits the user of a bastard sword in terms of %gain in dps moreso than the khop user. If I swing bastard swords and you swing khops, I get a relatively better gain in dps than you. That is what he is saying.

[Viking707]

Val,

You should really consider applying your talents to the stock market.

-V

[Thucydides04]

It does not converge.
The benefit diverges.
It diverges by eventually 8%.


No, it does continue to grow. 8% faster improvement is "continued growth". I wonder what definition of "growth" you could be using that would exclude an 8% faster improvement rate?

The bigger your damage bonus is, the more important it becomes to use khopesh. At low damage bonuses, the superior critical power of the khopesh can sometimes be outweighed by other factors like racial attack or damage enhancements. But if we get a +100 Inspire Courage or otherwise reach very high damage levels, then the choice of which weapon is best becomes more and more clear-cut.

wrong, mathematically speaking if you take the limit of F(n_khop)/F(n_rap) as n-> infinite, the benefit gained will converge to 8%.

[Valezra]

There's one problem with that, your formula is wrong!

To calculate the effect that critical hits have on DPS, you seem to use the formula critical_multiplier*threat_range. However, that formula is the wrong one. The correct formula is (19+threat_range*(critical_multiplier-1))/20 as it can easily be demonstrated.

According to your formula, rapiers and khopeshes are equal:
2*6=12
4*3=12

However, that's false.

If we were to put both weapons under similar situations, we would run into:
100*15/20+100*4/20*3=135
100*13/20+100*6/20*2=125

Not equal, unlike what your formula suggest.

If we use my formula, we end up with:
(19+4*(3-1))/20=1.35
(19+6*(2-1))/20=1.25

As you can see, this lead to the correct presentation of reality. This is the correct model.

Whoah, whoah, whoah... I never said Rapiers and Khopeshes are equal because critrange*multiplier both equal 12! I said they have the same total crit damage. You're taking a fraction of my formula and extrapolating conclusion I never made.

Khopesh will get 2 more normal hits in on it's math which is why it will always pull ahead.

Your formula:
(19+4*(3-1))/20=1.35
(19+6*(2-1))/20=1.25

Is identical to my formula:
(15+4*(3))/20=1.35
(13+6*(2))/20=1.25

I simply choose to set it up differently. No need to get belligerent.

People please stop making things up. I never said Rapiers and Khopeshs do the same damage or benefit the same from bonus damage. Did anyone even read the OP!?

[Borror0]

His formula isn't wrong if you come in later and subtract a number of normal hits equal to the number of crits you got.
That's totally meaningless, unless you want to determine if two weapons get the same gain from critical hits. To see which is most affected by heavy fortification, for example. Outside of that, it has absolutely no value other than possibly mislead other readers.

[Valezra]

That's totally meaningless, unless you want to determine if two weapons get the same gain from critical hits. To see which is most affected by heavy fortification, for example. Outside of that, it has absolutely no value other than possibly mislead other readers.

It's not meaningless, it is physically what happens in the game. In the game a khopesh will land on average 15 out of every 20 hits as normal damage and 4 out of every 20 hits as criticals. I chose to set my math up to reflect that. I don't understand how that it meaningless.

[kingfisher]

thanks val, i learned something on page 1 but then my add kicked in. nice thread tho

[Valezra]

thanks val, i learned something on page 1 but then my add kicked in. nice thread tho

Thanks... you haven't really missed anything by skipping. We got hung up on semantics for 3 pages and now we're "discussing" the intricacies of the math but we are all coming up with the same thing and we can't agree on that. lol :p

[Borror0]

It's not meaningless, it is physically what happens in the game. In the game a khopesh will land on average 15 out of every 20 hits as normal damage and 4 out of every 20 hits as criticals. I chose to set my math up to reflect that. I don't understand how that it meaningless.
Ever heard of Occam's Razor?

[Monkey_Archer]

Thanks... you haven't really missed anything by skipping. We got hung up on semantics for 3 pages and now we're "discussing" the intricacies of the math but we are all coming up with the same thing and we can't agree on that. lol :p

Except my post where I prove that khopeshes are inferior weapons and rapier do double the dps overall and, and... err.. better stop now before someone quotes me and starts flaming away :D

[Borror0]

better stop now before someone quotes me and starts flaming away :D
Too late, dumbass. ;)

[Valezra]

Ever heard of Occam's Razor?

Yes. So?

I believe your formula requires more steps and explainations than mine. I think you should revise yours. But who cares? So I am wrong because in your opinion I took an extra step or two?

I have lost a lot of respect for you. I didn't realize you could get so petty.

[toughguyjoe]

1. SO in short the "Power Attack favors Khopesh's" argument is actually false.

Ok i hate these threads so i'm just going to reply to the part that i think is kinda wrong, which makes it only sort of right.

Power attack doesn't really favor any weapon other than Two Handed ones. However. Rapiers can be used by Dex builds, and are in fact MOSTLY used by dex builds, and I know that not all Dex builds are able to take power attack due to tis STR requirement of their feat allotment so in fact, when one build with Rapiers takes Weapon finesse, the other build with Kopehses usually takes Power attack in its place, so while the feat may not "favor" kopeshes it is more often paired with the kopesh.

[Monkey_Archer]

Too late, dumbass. ;)
At least you used occam's razor on your flame :D

[toughguyjoe]

At least you used occam's razor on your flame :D


I used occams razor on yo momma last night and it hardly made a dent in that jungly patch!

No offense meant someone just had to make a crass joke.

[kingfisher]

Thanks... you haven't really missed anything by skipping. We got hung up on semantics for 3 pages and now we're "discussing" the intricacies of the math but we are all coming up with the same thing and we can't agree on that. lol :p

i was told there would be no math!

one thing tho, seems like most dex builds HAVE to have PA to start to make up for the low str. they can almost always afford the loss in to-hit. so having PA with rapiers is just as common as with khopeshes, not that it matters

[Borror0]

So I am wrong because in your opinion I took an extra step or two?
You asked how it was meaningless. Well, I told you. It's an additional calculation that amounts to nothing. It has nothing with being wrong.

It's just that it serves no purpose.

I believe your formula requires more steps and explainations than mine. I think you should revise yours.
Mine is useful because it allows me to compare two weapons easily. Yours, however, does not.

[Valezra]

You asked how it was meaningless. Well, I told you. It's an additional calculation that amounts to nothing. It has nothing with being wrong.

It's just that it serves no purpose.

Occam's Razor does not make something meaningless. Fail.

[maddmatt70]

How about a real decision a player has to make. Should a player take the khopesh proficiency feat or the power attack feat i.e. does the khopesh without power attack do more damage then a racial weapon such as the rapier with power attack. How about with different variations of to-hit?

[Borror0]

Occam's Razor does not make something meaningless. Fail.
Occam's Razor does not, indeed, make something meaningless. It states that the best answer is often the most simplest one.

It's meaningless because it has no value. Period.

[valorik]

can you put this in terms of rainbows and butterflies?

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

It all depends on many things. At (very) low str, rapier tends to do better. At high AC, rapiers tend to do better until you reach insane high AC then khopesh catch up mainly because of the increased grazing hit damage. At high fort, rapier comes out top. greensteel and how your burst is distributed also affects stuff, since burst effects in DDO still trigger even if the mob has heavy fort.

but Vs Harry for example a gs khopesh is better than a gs rapier.

I have a spreadsheet (http://i30.tinypic.com/21bnjn7.png) I use to calculate all this stuff, it's kinda hard to use but if anyone wants it let me know.

Garth

[baddax]

Ever heard of Occam's Razor?

Its a guild on Thelanis, but thats not important now....

[Angelus_dead]

wrong, mathematically speaking if you take the limit of F(n_khop)/F(n_rap) as n-> infinite, the benefit gained will converge to 8%.
No, because f(khop)/f(rap) is not the "benefit" under consideration.

[Hurry]

No, because f(khop)/f(rap) is not the "benefit" under consideration.
Wrong.



Khops are the best, and PA makes them the bestest, better than the better they already were against rapiers, even if rapiers gain more from it, PA still makes the already best, betterer. I make great points!

[Arkat]

Occam's Razor does not, indeed, make something meaningless. It states that the best answer is often the most simplest one.


No. Occam's Razor is about the simplest answer being the likeliest one.

Likely is an objective term as compared to "best."

What does "best" mean? By whose definition? Hence it's subjective.

No, likely is measurable. The likeliest answer is the correct one or it isn't.



Aesthetic and practical considerations

Prior to the 20th century, it was a commonly-held belief that nature itself was simple and that simpler hypotheses about nature were thus more likely to be true; this notion was deeply rooted in the aesthetic value simplicity holds for human thought and the justifications presented for it often drew from theology. Thomas Aquinas made this argument in the 13th century, writing, "If a thing can be done adequately by means of one, it is superfluous to do it by means of several; for we observe that nature does not employ two instruments where one suffices."

...

Empirical justification

One way a theory or a principle could be justified is empirically; that is to say, if simpler theories were to have a better record of turning out to be correct than more complex ones, that would corroborate Occam's razor.


Emphasis Mine


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_Razor


Maybe we're talking semantics here but it is more accurate to say of Occam's that the simple answer is more likely to be true, not that the simple answer is the best one.

[Thelmallen]

F(25):
Avg Hit = (25+5.5) * (15/20) = 22.875

Okay, I know I'm probably asking a noob question but what is the 15/20 fraction for when computing average hit damage?

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

Okay, I know I'm probably asking a noob question but what is the 15/20 fraction for when computing average hit damage?

it means 15 of the 20 hits are normal hits.

e.g. below that you see '4/20' meaning 4 of the 20 possible hits are criticals. These calculations don't take into account fortification though, or the fact that fortification doesn't affect burst effects.

It's a simple but effective way of calculating dps assuming hitting on a 2. From what I can tell this won't be happening all the time in mod9, except maybe for barbarians and kensei fighters in power surge.

Garth

[Angelus_dead]

It's a simple but effective way of calculating dps assuming hitting on a 2. From what I can tell this won't be happening all the time in mod9, except maybe for barbarians
And only if the barbs didn't train Barbarian PA 3 for some reason...

However, mod 9 includes Greater Destruction weapons, so maybe everyone can hit on 2s again! (Yeah, Greater Destruction is a bad idea)

[Valezra]

Wrong.



Khops are the best, and PA makes them the bestest, better than the better they already were against rapiers, even if rapiers gain more from it, PA still makes the already best, betterer. I make great points!

ROFL... I needed a laugh.

Val

[Comfortably]

Thanks comf. The extra Human Feat with which to get Khopesh, and the fact that they don't have to invest nearly as many Action Points as the Elf to get the same or slightly better DPS is a huge incentive to go Human. However, the Elf will have a to-hit advantage of at least +3 over the khopesh user which is why I will probably go elf on my FS. This will help offset the frequency with which I will need to cast Divine Power.

Where can I find the FS capstone? I forget.

Somewhere in the beta forums I'm sure.