True Paladin

[Mr_Ed7]

How about a true Paladin that fights and heals...while shield-blocking the door.

A Paladin should be a defensive fighter who can enable the team by playing junior cleric.

So far my Pally is set-up for cure moderate wounds, raise dead, 3 Lay of Hands, cure disease, lesser restoration and more.

Why build intima-paladins and tempest-paladins?

There are enough 2 weapon psychos on the server to the killing...

[cluedout]

How about a true Paladin that fights and heals...while shield-blocking the door.

A Paladin should be a defensive fighter who can enable the team by playing junior cleric.

So far my Pally is set-up for cure moderate wounds, raise dead, 3 Lay of Hands, cure disease, lesser restoration and more.

Why build intima-paladins and tempest-paladins?

There are enough 2 weapon psychos on the server to the killing...

because there are clerics to do that job and there can never be enough "2 weapon psychos on the server to the killing"

have a good day and re-roll ur paly into a TWF psycho

[Dexxaan]

If you have no Intimidate...tough chance "holding the door".

If your Concentration isn't in the 40+'s good luck healing yourself or others in melee.

If your DPS isn't significant....good luck clearing the door.

Basically,

Pure Paladin & Healing Specc'd? = Buy a ton of $ 0.90 Mod 9 Auto-Rez Pots. :D

[Ralmeth]

For a S&B defensive Pally, which is what I play as my main, you really will want intimidate so you can grab aggro. You also still want to retain some level of DPS. IMHO you will want to go Pally 18, with a splash into Fighter and/or Rogue for 1-2 levels of each (i.e. Fighter 2, Rogue 2 or Fighter 1 / Rogue 1). Yes, you will lose out on some DPS by not going pure, but then you wanted to play a Defensive Paladin.

[Mr_Ed7]

If you have no Intimidate...tough chance "holding the door".

If your Concentration isn't in the 40+'s good luck healing yourself or others in melee.

If your DPS isn't significant....good luck clearing the door.

Basically,

Pure Paladin & Healing Specc'd? = Buy a ton of $ 0.90 Mod 9 Auto-Rez Pots. :D

Holding the door can be physically done with but a shield...holding the hall would require intimidate...

and apparently intimidate is not encouraged by Paladins hence the double-point cost, so I steared clear of that, besides there are fighters and barbarians who can fill that niche.

A Concentration of 40+! Never heard of the need for this! Sure about that?

[Mr_Ed7]

For a S&B defensive Pally, which is what I play as my main, you really will want intimidate so you can grab aggro. You also still want to retain some level of DPS. IMHO you will want to go Pally 18, with a splash into Fighter and/or Rogue for 1-2 levels of each (i.e. Fighter 2, Rogue 2 or Fighter 1 / Rogue 1). Yes, you will lose out on some DPS by not going pure, but then you wanted to play a Defensive Paladin.

Sorry I am pure Paladin...Old School Player!

[MDS_Geist]

Sorry I am pure Paladin...Old School Player!

As am I, but DDO isn't set up for traditional PnP gameplay.
You can still play a pure paladin, but bear in mind that you're going to have to more or less specialize or you could be a detriment to your group is high level content. A well built (for DDO) paladin can be a tremendous asset to a group and a tremendous amount of fun to play, and the new prestige enhancemnets will give some solid options.

[Dexxaan]

Holding the door can be physically done with but a shield...holding the hall would require intimidate...

You won`t be there too long since:

A) 1/2 a Dozen Mobs are beating on you (Because you are holding the door...or are you expecting someone else to aggro and just be a mere Shield-Toting inconvenience?)

B) As this 1/2 dozen Mobs you are holding off strike you (and they will) you will need to heal yourself and if you get wacked by an angry X or Y Mob then your Spellcasting success depends directly on your Concentration skill (or Quicken which Paladins can`t really afford...)...hence it`s importance to BattleClerics (You guys rock) and Healing-Paladins (***shivers)

C) Your healing focus will cost you in the DPS department and therefore the aforementioned 1/2 dozen mobs will be there for a while....making your predictably short lifespan.... shorter. :eek:

and apparently intimidate is not encouraged by Paladins hence the double-point cost, so I steared clear of that, besides there are fighters and barbarians who can fill that niche.

A Concentration of 40+! Never heard of the need for this! Sure about that?

Survival Notes in Yellow.


Go Bastard Paladins!!

[Mr_Ed7]

Survival Notes in Yellow.


Go Bastard Paladins!!

Your 40+ score is but an exaggeration I am assuming. We are not talking about a hypothetical situation, I have shield-blocked the door, and I have healed.

Agro should not be a problem, because typically there will be other characters who will fill that notch. A shield-toting inconvience is another exaggeration, because as I mentioned there will be others who were advised on how to make their characters, and they will be doing as you suggested...

but thanks for helping to survive!

[Mr_Ed7]

As am I, but DDO isn't set up for traditional PnP gameplay.
You can still play a pure paladin, but bear in mind that you're going to have to more or less specialize or you could be a detriment to your group is high level content. A well built (for DDO) paladin can be a tremendous asset to a group and a tremendous amount of fun to play, and the new prestige enhancemnets will give some solid options.

Yes my specialization will be a fighting-healing Paladin, seems to be working thus far and I expect it too in the future.

What form of specializing are you referring too, my buddy is going to specialize in a turning Paladin...

[Valezra]

Holding the door can be physically done with but a shield...holding the hall would require intimidate...

and apparently intimidate is not encouraged by Paladins hence the double-point cost, so I steared clear of that, besides there are fighters and barbarians who can fill that niche.

A Concentration of 40+! Never heard of the need for this! Sure about that?

Play end game.

Val

[Minor_Threat]

cool story, bro.

[Mr_Ed7]

Play end game.

Val

Perhaps a tad more on the details department...

[Mr_Ed7]

cool story, bro.

Insert nervous laugh here...

[Mr_Ed7]

It seems like a healing & fighting path seems the direction they are pointing in for the Paladins, intimidate seems to be something that the game does not encourage for Paladins.

In which case I am doing everything right...

[Dexxaan]

Your 40+ score is but an exaggeration I am assuming. We are not talking about a hypothetical situation, I have shield-blocked the door, and I have healed.

Agro should not be a problem, because typically there will be other characters who will fill that notch. A shield-toting inconvience is another exaggeration, because as I mentioned there will be others who were advised on how to make their characters, and they will be doing as you suggested...

but thanks for helping to survive!


Just for sake of clarity.....in a typical 1 Rogue, 1 Caster 1 Cleric and 3 Melee Type Party......(I`m considering you Melee btw)

You are blocking the door (Shieldblocking) while 2 others behind you (Melee # 2 and Rogue I`m assuming?) go at em.

Caster and Cleric (squishies # 2 & 3 - Rogue being # 1) do their thing and you all walk away into the sunset?

If this is correct then yes you are a "Self Healing Shield-Toting, Door Blocking Inconvenience"...... tough pill to swallow IMO.

[Valezra]

To point out though why so many of us 'poo-poo' the idea of a healing S&B paladin is because at level 16 and beyond your Cure Serious Wounds for 50-75 hitpoints and your tiny spell point pool won't even come close to comparing to just one Cleric's Heal for 300+ hitpoints. Honestly, you could fill the niche you want better by taking rogue at level 1 and upping UMD thus being able to use Heal Scrolls.

What you want is a well rounded tank and backup healer. I really do get that. But what you will end up with at level 16 is a Paladin that does S&B level damage, not enough Action Points in DPS enhancements, no intimidate (there is no "holding the door" in 90% of the game past level 10), and puny heals (almost any bard/rogue mix or sorcerer can all use Heal scrolls and thus outheal you). No one wants a low dps non-tank non-healer in their party or raid group. If you want to go pure paladin I CAN suggest some fun build alternatives.

Val

[Dexxaan]

Yes my specialization will be a fighting-healing Paladin, seems to be working thus far and I expect it too in the future.

What form of specializing are you referring too, my buddy is going to specialize in a turning Paladin...

Running with your Door Holding Healing Paladin? I would too. Specialized in "Turning & Running" (....some Ranger boosts FTW!)


Sry. Mr Ed.....but I´m procrastinating at work and your thread topic is just a delicious morsel for a hungry man.

[KoboldKiller]

Maybe I'm a bit confused but I had a s&b pure elven longsword Paladin capped at 14 and I had zero issues with contributing DPS to the party.

[Valezra]

Maybe I'm a bit confused but I had a s&b pure elven longsword Paladin capped at 14 and I had zero issues with contributing DPS to the party.

A sorcerer swinging away with their Spell Pen and Potency scepters can contribute to DPS.

Val

[Dexxaan]

To point out though why so many of us 'poo-poo' the idea of a healing S&B paladin is because at level 16 and beyond your Cure Serious Wounds for 50-75 hitpoints and your tiny spell point pool won't even come close to comparing to just one Cleric's Heal for 300+ hitpoints. Honestly, you could fill the niche you want better by taking rogue at level 1 and upping UMD thus being able to use Heal Scrolls.
What you want is a well rounded tank and backup healer. I really do get that. But what you will end up with at level 16 is a Paladin that does S&B level damage, not enough Action Points in DPS enhancements, no intimidate (there is no "holding the door" in 90% of the game past level 10), and puny heals (almost any bard/rogue mix or sorcerer can all use Heal scrolls and thus outheal you). No one wants a low dps non-tank non-healer in their party or raid group. If you want to go pure paladin I CAN suggest some fun build alternatives.

Val

Darnit Valezra
Now look what you´ve done to my morning fun! Telling him what the EZ button is.... :mad:

He was prolly going to make some old school retort or how the impurities of a sinful conception need cleansing......

Now we´ll never know......

[Valezra]

Darnit Valezra
Now look what you´ve done to my morning fun! Telling him what the EZ button is.... :mad:

He was prolly going to make some old school retort or how the impurities of a sinful conception need cleansing......

Now we´ll never know......

Well, we're spamming replies pretty fast maybe he missed it. Procrastinating at work too Dex. :-)

Val

[Dexxaan]

Maybe I'm a bit confused but I had a s&b pure elven longsword Paladin capped at 14 and I had zero issues with contributing DPS to the party.

Yes and by Level 20 a pure Paladin (even Elven....:eek:) can do so, but your not confused..your just lazy or not comprehending the OP´s "Healing Paladin" focus.

(You know CHA 28 CON 14 WIS 28 STR 14, Emp Healing, Mental Toughness, Imp. Mental Toughness, etc....)


A sorcerer swinging away with their Spell Pen and Potency scepters can contribute to DPS.

Val

LOL

[Thelmallen]

Maybe I'm a bit confused but I had a s&b pure elven longsword Paladin capped at 14 and I had zero issues with contributing DPS to the party.

When the cap was 14 there was no such thing as a tempest ranger in the game. That prestige class totally blew the concept of DPS out of the water. I'm a paladin guy, I have a pure paladin and an evasion tempest paladin and my tempest blows the doors off the pure paladin as far as damage output. Not even close. The pure spikes for more with one crit exalted smite but continual DPS goes to the tempest.

I think with the defender PrE class they'll add for paladins, those pure sword and shield pally's can have a newfound roll but we'll see.

[BattleCircle]

In my limited experience, I have found that a timi pally is always a welcome addition to a party.

Not so much with a healing pally

[Valezra]

When the cap was 14 there was no such thing as a tempest ranger in the game. That prestige class totally blew the concept of DPS out of the water. I'm a paladin guy, I have a pure paladin and an evasion tempest paladin and my tempest blows the doors off the pure paladin as far as damage output. Not even close. The pure spikes for more with one crit exalted smite but continual DPS goes to the tempest.

I think with the defender PrE class they'll add for paladins, those pure sword and shield pally's can have a newfound roll but we'll see.

S&B pally DoS will still have trouble holding aggro. Most high DPS tempests will pull the boss right off of them.

Val

[Djimonte]

You will unfortunately be disapointed in what you are building as you hit above lvl 12 and start taking real hard damage.
There is a way to be the paladin you want without taking splash class and that is diplomacy.
Unfortunately though that course will tick off everyone around you and I wouldn't recomend it.
The paladin class has never been recieved well it seems by the gaming community other than its usefullness as a splash for loh, divine health, fear immunity.... etc and those are bout it.
This and adding 2 lvls rogue made an exploit build. In hindsight rogue class should never have been allowed to class with a paladin build.
Even further stating absolutely no class should have been allowed to cross class with a paladin would have been even better and the designers actually create the paladin into what the class actually could be and become later on, but it would be kinda silly for a Knight to ride a horse into a dungeon and being chained to one sword maybe would have become even more frustrating.
Also if we were allowed evil alignment here I being a betting man would wager the paladin population would grow 4 fold as there is an appeal to evil things.
If you like staying pure do it explore what is offered for the class and work on its weaknesses and expand on its strengths.

[Mr_Ed7]

Maybe I'm a bit confused but I had a s&b pure elven longsword Paladin capped at 14 and I had zero issues with contributing DPS to the party.

Right, even if there are "issues" I can not see them being of some consequence.

I believe that if you have the nerfiest character in the raid...its ok, there are 11 other in the group...

While, I think comparing the numbers most of the posters are correct, but I think really in "end-game" it will be ok, and not result in 11 others doing the /point & /laugh.

[Mr_Ed7]

Running with your Door Holding Healing Paladin? I would too. Specialized in "Turning & Running" (....some Ranger boosts FTW!)


Sry. Mr Ed.....but I´m procrastinating at work and your thread topic is just a delicious morsel for a hungry man.

I appreciate the point of view, I have been grinding teeth though waiting for the "your opinion is wrong therefore you are a jerK"...posts still

[Mr_Ed7]

Darnit Valezra
Now look what you´ve done to my morning fun! Telling him what the EZ button is.... :mad:

He was prolly going to make some old school retort or how the impurities of a sinful conception need cleansing......

Now we´ll never know......

Sorry where I come from Paladins & Rogues do not marry.
Hey worse, comes to worse I find that you guys were right, and I only play with guildies because everyone will cry "GIMP! GIMP!" lol

[Ralmeth]

Sorry I am pure Paladin...Old School Player!

I'm an old school player too, so I hear you. I also started out only ever wanting to play a pure, aggro-magnet / DPS Paladin. However after playing DDO for a while (maybe to level 6 or so when I first started playing), I realized much to my disappointment that I couldn't hold aggro. Thus I learned the value of intimidate. Once I remade my character with a Fighter splash I learned it was soooo much easier to grab aggro with that one skill. I also really hated the idea of splashing Rogue and or Fighter with Paladin, but there really is true, game-play value in doing so, specifically on a Defensive build.

Skills
I also understand your comment stating that they didn't give Paladins intimidate for a reason. However bear in mind that when Turbine translated PnP D&D into DDO, they simply copied the class skills that characters had in PnP. Turbine implemented the usefulness PnP skills to what worked best in a video game, however they never went back and adjusted class skills to what each class actually needs. I've been playing a Paladin for over a couple of years and I can tell you that none of the Paladin class skills are what you actually need. The useful ones are UMD, Intimidate, Balance, Jump and some points into tumble. On my newest Pally, I don't have a single point into heal, diplomacy or concentration. It's natural to think you should be putting points into the class skills your given, but in real game play you will get knocked on the ground by monsters and you will want to get up as fast as you can. You will need to make countless jumps in so many quests. Intimidate is awesome for grabbing aggro. UMD is awesome for granting so much more utility in using unlimited raise dead scrolls, being able to use race restricted items, teleport scrolls to get you around town faster, etc.

Low vs High Levels
Another big issue I found in DDO is that what works at low levels does not necessarily work at high levels. For example, fighting S&B at low levels works great. It's really easy to pick up a shield to give you a decent AC to prevent against damage. One weapon in your main hand lets you kill things quickly. However, when you get to high level, the developers had to balance difficulty based on the fact that some characters have really high DPS from TWF, Tempest, Rage, etc. As a result many monsters have really high HP levels and that single handed weapon will take forever to kill something. So you can fight S&B at high levels but you need to be prepared that your DPS is going to be much lower than any other DPS focused character out there. So IMHO if you love the idea of the iconic Paladin with a shield in the off-hand, put that shield to good use and be able to grab aggro. Use that shield, combined with hunting for high AC items to get a high AC, or to give you the ability to shield block and gain decent DR when you do. If you don't have the aggro-grabbing ability, then essentially you will be a really low DPS melee. What stinks about this is that it can be disappointing that you can't contribute to the group the way you used to at low levels. I really hate this about DDO, but that is the way the game currently is.

[jmonty]

Sorry where I come from Paladins & Rogues do not marry.
Hey worse, comes to worse I find that you guys were right, and I only play with guildies because everyone will cry "GIMP! GIMP!" lol

ha ha!

i don't think the forums are an accurate representation of the game population. a few weeks ago i ran my original 28 point build pally in the hound because all my other characters were on timer and no one even noticed. :p he even got a few kills! with zeal and all the other self buffs it wasn't an issue.

my 2 fighter / 14 pally is a far better tank though. [32 point build, i was more experienced when i rolled him, etc]

[Sehenry03]

I understand making a build you wanna enjoy...but ask yourself this - Do I really want to be a liability to my group EVERY TIME I join them? your build will work just fine if you stop at lvl 10. Once you hit Gianthold though your gonna be in trouble. To get enough mana to be able to heal your gonna have to take the mana feats and a pally is already feat starved. To be able to heal while being pounded on your gonna need quicken...again tough while being feat starved. You would be a LOT better off to make a battle cleric and stand in the door cause then you will have plenty of mana and the ability to hold off those mobs easier.

Make your toon how YOU want but you might wanna consider the fact that no matter how you think you will be in end game your also disregarding the advice of some of the better players who know how it works and not basing it on theories. Just because a paladin doesn't have intimidate as a primary skill does not mean they don't want you to take it. its never been a primary but people still work it in cause with all the Cha they get it works. No matter how you build your pally your NEVER gonna be able to heal effectively. Your heals won't keep people alive once you hit GH and the ogres start pummeling your rogue cause you can't do enough DPS to pull him off. personally i would never dream of saying I'll let the rest of the group do everything cause there are 11 of them and can make up for my ineffectiveness but thats just me

[Mr_Ed7]

Yes someone hit it on the head, "the iconic" Paladin is what I am playing.

As far as my healing goes, I never imagined it to be on-par with a cleric. Just useful. I mean who could not use a 100 hp Lay of Hands, or my 1000 point heal-all, or a Raise Dead?

Again I am prepped with Resist, and Lesser Resrore at the moment also. I am fully prepped to play field-medic.

I have two figthers with intimidate, capped (S&B "iconic" builds btw), and a capped Barbarian with intimidate...I mean really Paladins too? That is enough intimidate characters for me.

I will make the best of him and the abilities that I seem to think fit best.

Some of the suggestions have been to give the Paladin Intimidate (a barb & fighter skill) to give the Paladin two-weapons (Ranger ability) and even to give the Paladin levels in other classes!

Again, going for the iconic Paladin all of that would be wrong for my guy, for my build.

The other thing is, that I have heard the end-game doom scenarios before on builds and it just never seems to pan-out in the ways that people say.

Hopefully, I will be shield-walling for the other guy who did not listen, the Ranger shooting a bow.

[Dexxaan]

Right, even if there are "issues" I can not see them being of some consequence.

I believe that if you have the nerfiest character in the raid...its ok, there are 11 other in the group...

While, I think comparing the numbers most of the posters are correct, but I think really in "end-game" it will be ok, and not result in 11 others doing the /point & /laugh.

I think I found a new Sig Quote. May I use it? :cool:



...snip.... personally i would never dream of saying I'll let the rest of the group do everything cause there are 11 of them and can make up for my ineffectiveness but thats just me

Hey now. Thats my possible Sig Quote you're messing with! :D

[Dexxaan]

...snip...Hopefully, I will be shield-walling for the other guy who did not listen, the Ranger shooting a bow.


Oh no... no you didn't! LMAO see? Now you'r gonna get us started on the other end of the Spectrum.... The Aggro & Run Build. :eek:

[Mr_Ed7]

Its true though, as much as one player/character may suck others will pull them through.

If I do not have my guy wielding two-weapons with a spalsh of rogue, monk, or coke while intimidating...it really does not matter, because there will probably be 3 other characters who are doing just exactly that.

[Mhykke]

The other thing is, that I have heard the end-game doom scenarios before on builds and it just never seems to pan-out in the ways that people say.


Of course it doesn't, if you take the attitude that 11 others are there to pull you through, as you seem to do here:


I believe that if you have the nerfiest character in the raid...its ok, there are 11 other in the group...



With that attitude, nothing matters. Roll up a brand new character, have someone carry you in their backpack, get shroud ready at level 1, run the shroud over and over in someone's backpack collecting ingredients. Run all the raids and roll for raid loot, I mean, it's not like you'll fail b/c you're on a lvl 1, there are 11 other people doing the work, correct?

So in that scenario, it doesn't matter, b/c no build is bad, b/c there are others that will carry that build through.

[Mr_Ed7]

Of course it doesn't, if you take the attitude that 11 others are there to pull you through, as you seem to do here:




With that attitude, nothing matters. Roll up a brand new character, have someone carry you in their backpack, get shroud ready at level 1, run the shroud over and over in someone's backpack collecting ingredients. Run all the raids and roll for raid loot, I mean, it's not like you'll fail b/c you're on a lvl 1, there are 11 other people doing the work, correct?

So in that scenario, it doesn't matter, b/c no build is bad, b/c there are others that will carry that build through.

Exactly my point, the exaggerated inference, the doom & gloom, nobody will play with me etc.

It does not happen Mhylke, everything gets done I do my part.

[Mhykke]

Exactly my point, the exaggerated inference, the doom & gloom, nobody will play with me etc.

It does not happen Mhylke, everything gets done I do my part.

Slow down, I didn't go that far.

I agree in one raid, or a few raids, letting 11 others carry you won't matter. After a while? People are going to remember "oh, that's joe shmoe, he hasn't done anything in any raid I've ever been in, take the other guy"......

[Mr_Ed7]

Slow down, I didn't go that far.

I agree in one raid, or a few raids, letting 11 others carry you won't matter. After a while? People are going to remember "oh, that's joe shmoe, he hasn't done anything in any raid I've ever been in, take the other guy"......

That will most likely not happen, as a previous poster said it will go unnoticed if at all.
What are they gonna say?
I do not believe my 2 s&b builds are on some blacklist somewhere for using shields!

If someone said "In the future your raid party will wipe because you chose to carry a shield and heal people." maybe then I would switch tactics. 'Cause I would hate for my gimpness to bring down an entire quest for 11 others.

Perhaps Mhykke would like to see some sort-of "output meter" for quests to make sure everyone is doing their part.

Look busy Mhykke is coming. :eek:

[Mhykke]

That will most likely not happen, as a previous poster said it will go unnoticed if at all.
What are they gonna say?
I do not believe my 2 s&b builds are on some blacklist somewhere for using shields!

If someone said "In the future your raid party will wipe because you chose to carry a shield and heal people." maybe then I would switch tactics. 'Cause I would hate for my gimpness to bring down an entire quest for 11 others.

Perhaps Mhykke would like to see some sort-of "output meter" for quests to make sure everyone is doing their part.

Look busy Mhykke is coming. :eek:

If you don't think people notice if, for example, someone is swinging at portals in part 1 while holding a shield, then you're only fooling yourself.

[Mr_Ed7]

If you don't think people notice if, for example, someone is swinging at portals in part 1 while holding a shield, then you're only fooling yourself.

Yeah 'cuz that would be a deal-breaker.

I never noticed, I will ask around though.

If I did notice, I would be like "ooo That guy wait till I ...that son of @#$! shield-user..."

yeah I am gonna have to look for that. That would make me mad.

[SteeleTrueheart]

If you were a true paladin you would not be happy by making other people do your work. A true paladin would never be a burden on his/her party. A true paladin would be trying to ease the burden of others in his party by helping them through. A true paladin would put in more effort than any other party member, without letting them know it. Does your build really sound like a TRUE paladin?

I agree don't splash if that is your choice.

The real problem with an ineffective build is that everyone usually has one (my first paladin is S&B with a lot in the heal skill, I think with items his STR is 24!! He even uses bastard swords.*) and occasionally you join a group where nearly everyone has brought their gimp. Suddenly it is 2 or 3 people trying to prop up the 10 gimp builds. People remember those groups.

* I bet he never gets accepted into a group on Khyber again now that his gimpiness is known.

[Dexxaan]

If you were a true paladin you would not be happy by making other people do your work. A true paladin would never be a burden on his/her party. A true paladin would be trying to ease the burden of others in his party by helping them through. A true paladin would put in more effort than any other party member, without letting them know it. Does your build really sound like a TRUE paladin?


Ouch!!


Someone took a morality beating...... Left hook to the Crystal-Chin!

[Valezra]

First thing Mr_Ed7... people DO notice sub-optimal players. S&B on a portal is a great example. I remember people who do that. It shows a lack of understanding or lack of care or both.

If you want to heal, raise dead, and do that super useful 1000 hitpoint heal every 10 minutes on a Paladin you are going to be spending so many action points on that junk that your DPS will be incredibly low.

TWF builds definately top the charts for DPS in this game. Well built and DPS focused THF builds can also do great damage. S&B are at an immediate 50% disadvantage to a TWF, and about a 10%-25% disadvantage to a S&B fighter. If you can't max out your Exalted Smites, Divine Sacrifice, and Divine Might... then you are already even lower than the next S&B pure paladin. Which means, the build you are proposing in this thread will fall right in with the absolute lowest DPS builds of the game.

In a raid the "other 11" don't need your LoH or your Cure Criticals and they don't need you to stand in a door (where are all these doors in the raids your running?). They need you to be able to do a lot of DPS, Tank, Heal, or Nuke. Some raids need them all and others only need some of those 4 Archetypes. Build to one of those archetypes first before branching out into something else and no-one will tear down the build. If you build something that doesn't fill any of the 4 primary archetypes then you really aren't useful.

Val

[toughguyjoe]

Yeah 'cuz that would be a deal-breaker.

I never noticed, I will ask around though.

If I did notice, I would be like "ooo That guy wait till I ...that son of @#$! shield-user..."

yeah I am gonna have to look for that. That would make me mad.



DudeManBuddyGuy. Listen up.

If you don't find it preferable to carry two One handed weapons against shroud portals on your Sword and Board character, you have missed a large boat that had many many people on it, and they were going somewhere really nice.

Shroud portals don't fight back. A shield is the WORST thing you could have in your offhand while beating on one.

Eitehr up your AC against a stationary mob that has no attacks OR:

Double your DPS with an offhand weapon...

Or Get 1.5 times your STR bonus with a two handed weapon.

Where was it hard to figure that out?

[Mhykke]

Yeah 'cuz that would be a deal-breaker.

I never noticed, I will ask around though.

If I did notice, I would be like "ooo That guy wait till I ...that son of @#$! shield-user..."

yeah I am gonna have to look for that. That would make me mad.

Who said anything about making people mad?

People don't get mad at the guy. They make fun of him. Sorry to be so blunt, sorry if it upsets you, but people make fun of the guy who can't comprehend a simple thing like

portals are hit on a 2+, swing 2 weapons or a two handed weapon on them

People will look at the guy next to them holding a shield hitting the portals and think "that guy doesn't realize the shield's doing nothing for him there?".....Then their next thought will be "this guy doesn't know much about the game". Then, if they group with him a few more times, eventually there will be a point, if they're party leader, where they take someone else over that guy, or they remember that guy when a party leader asks if anyone knows him.

[Mr_Ed7]

First thing Mr_Ed7... people DO notice sub-optimal players. S&B on a portal is a great example. I remember people who do that. It shows a lack of understanding or lack of care or both.

If you want to heal, raise dead, and do that super useful 1000 hitpoint heal every 10 minutes on a Paladin you are going to be spending so many action points on that junk that your DPS will be incredibly low.

TWF builds definately top the charts for DPS in this game. Well built and DPS focused THF builds can also do great damage. S&B are at an immediate 50% disadvantage to a TWF, and about a 10%-25% disadvantage to a S&B fighter. If you can't max out your Exalted Smites, Divine Sacrifice, and Divine Might... then you are already even lower than the next S&B pure paladin. Which means, the build you are proposing in this thread will fall right in with the absolute lowest DPS builds of the game.

In a raid the "other 11" don't need your LoH or your Cure Criticals and they don't need you to stand in a door (where are all these doors in the raids your running?). They need you to be able to do a lot of DPS, Tank, Heal, or Nuke. Some raids need them all and others only need some of those 4 Archetypes. Build to one of those archetypes first before branching out into something else and no-one will tear down the build. If you build something that doesn't fill any of the 4 primary archetypes then you really aren't useful.

Val

Or perhaps some mix of the above...

I have been so useful to this point in the game that I find it hard to believe you. If I get to that point where I can not hit the portal WITH my shield when I want to, I will retire the character, perhaps retire from the game enitrely, if it gets to the point you say. For no matter what you say, I say that I do it for fun, I do it for character background and flavor, and those reasons sir trump any uber min/maxing of number stacking reasons that you have for me to choose otherwise.

[Mhykke]

For no matter what you say, I say that I do it for fun, I do it for character background and flavor, and those reasons sir trump any uber min/maxing of number stacking reasons that you have for me to choose otherwise.

Again, that's great. Build anything you want and have fun with it.

Just don't expect validation from others on anything and everything you decide to make.

[Mr_Ed7]

The times I have been in the shroud, my first completion was done while playing my towershield wearing Dwarf. Why after using it for 16 levels would I switch it?
I will hit the portal with two-weapons when I go in there with my 2 weapon guy...

I mean I am LOL here, so they don't like the Dwarf, I can always switch characters..can't I lol!

We completed it btw.

but they still tell stories of the Dwarf with the shield...BHWAA hahaha!!!1 :D

[Mr_Ed7]

Again, that's great. Build anything you want and have fun with it.

Just don't expect validation from others on anything and everything you decide to make.

I never wanted validation?

Who made you the Validator? You need a laminator for that, yeah?

[Valezra]

The times I have been in the shroud, my first completion was done while playing my towershield wearing Dwarf. Why after using it for 16 levels would I switch it?
I will hit the portal with two-weapons when I go in there with my 2 weapon guy...

I mean I am LOL here, so they don't like the Dwarf, I can always switch characters..can't I lol!

We completed it btw.

but they still tell stories of the Dwarf with the shield...BHWAA hahaha!!!1 :D

No... you mean they shortmanned it with 11 guys and dragged you through.

Let me ask you... do you join pugs at all? If so does it not bother you that you will be contributing almost nothing in a typical shroud with your proposed healing door stop paladin?

Val

[Mr_Ed7]

No... you mean they shortmanned it with 11 guys and dragged you through.

Let me ask you... do you join pugs at all? If so does it not bother you that you will be contributing almost nothing in a typical shroud with your proposed healing door stop paladin?

Val

you give me too much credit

[Mhykke]

I never wanted validation?

Who made you the Validator? You need a laminator for that, yeah?


Of course you did. That's why you posted your "experience" on the forums. What, were you hoping for zero replies? If you weren't hoping for feedback, don't start off with a question like "how about", or don't post your views on what a class "should be".


How about a ......
A Paladin should be ...


Again, sorry you're getting upset. Just being honest.

[Mr_Ed7]

Of course you did. That's why you posted your "experience" on the forums. What, were you hoping for zero replies? If you weren't hoping for feedback, don't start off with a question like "how about", or don't post your views on what a class "should be".




Again, sorry you're getting upset. Just being honest.

No ones upset. Were you?

[sigtrent]

No... you mean they shortmanned it with 11 guys and dragged you through.


Not that I'm all down with Mr Ed but just because someone doesn't do maximum damage on a portal doesn't mean they are doing no damage on a portal or that he didn't bring anything to the party. A well timed paladin LOH or a lot of wand healing can really help a struggling party and if he throws out some DPS as well all the better.

A lot of groups easily overpower the shroud which only goes to show you don't need to be the best to be effective.

Now his refusal to use a Two hander or off hand just for flavor... silly in my book but and more so to be indignant about it but its not like he just sat in the corner, he was up there doing about 80% of the damage he possible could on the thing. Not great but hardly a total absence or a drag on the party.

[Sehenry03]

Sorry but don't say your trying to get into the flavor of your build...cause as the earlier poster said...NO Paladin would dream of letting anyone in his group outwork him cause he's to lazy to equip 2 weapons.

People need to simply ignore the OP here cause all he is wanting is validation that its ok to be lay and let the 11 other "guildies" do his work for him.

Great you beat the shroud with your dorf with a shield. Wonderful...glad you were able to justify the fact you made everyone else in the group do your work.

S&B is great and I would never drop anyone for it. On the other hand if that S&B toon was shield bashing a portal? Wow...quick way to learn about those peeps you don't wanna shroud with again. Takes a LOT to get on my blacklist...usually a bad attitude but this would certainly make it.

Good luck though I hope you have fun and I hope you have a patient guild

[Mhykke]

No ones upset. Were you?

You're not upset? Your actions betray your words.

Starting new threads, using capital letters, please....just stop it already.

[Valezra]

I came up with a preliminary build as I understand it. I considered taking Maximize to buff my Cures more but I didn't really want to lose Skill Focus: Heal. Let me know what you think man.

The Doorstop Paladin (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=190317)

Val

[sigtrent]

For Mr Ed I offer some old builds playing around with the paladin class.

A healer paladin
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=1675604#post1675604

One much like his (which I agree would be better off with intimidate!)
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=1714658#post1714658

Another not so great but fairly middle of the road kind of paladin
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=142853&page=2

And for verity here is a THF paladin
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=1703213#post1703213

Anyway, just saying not all paladins need to be great to be interesting. Still, if I find the time I'd like to go back and update some of these to work in what I've learned to make them a bit better while keeping their originality.

[Valezra]

For Mr Ed I offer some old builds playing around with the paladin class.

A healer paladin
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=1675604#post1675604

One much like his (which I agree would be better off with intimidate!)
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=1714658#post1714658

Another not so great but fairly middle of the road kind of paladin
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=142853&page=2

And for verity here is a TWF paladin
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=1703213#post1703213

Anyway, just saying not all paladins need to be great to be interesting. Still, if I find the time I'd like to go back and update some of these to work in what I've learned to make them a bit better while keeping their originality.

I think the Doorstop Paladin is a better build for the OP.

Val

[Dexxaan]

I think the Doorstop Paladin is a better build for the OP.

Val

/Agreed.


LMAO.... Doorstop Paladin.... I have got to write that one down in my Bio.

[sigtrent]

I think the Doorstop Paladin is a better build for the OP.
Val

It is a masterwork I agree. Right up there with the heavy metal dungeon god build.

[Charlemagne2]

Yeah 'cuz that would be a deal-breaker.

I never noticed, I will ask around though.

If I did notice, I would be like "ooo That guy wait till I ...that son of @#$! shield-user..."

yeah I am gonna have to look for that. That would make me mad.

I think the term ignorance of ones own ignorance applys here.

[ForwardWu]

I think first you have to accept that pally in DDO is not implemented as powerful as other melee type, both defensively, dps wise, or skill wise.

And if you have chosen to stay pure and S&B, or choose whatever feats/skills combo you like, please also understand that you will have a hard time to finish quests, let alone raid.

I will respect you if, with a non-optimal, fun-based build, can lead a quest or raid instead as a 6th or 12th person in the dungeon. Because with a sub-par toon, your player skills can contribute much more than the toon.


Please understand that DDO penalize fun build and reward solid build....it is the game we are playing...e.g. will you accept a 8cleric/8 soccy into a shroud pug if he is a stranger?

your 8/8 fighter/wiz is a fun build...yet..i know how it performs in higher lv quests like vale....

[Mr_Ed7]

I am not upset.

I understand that your stacking of numbers is more effective than my aestetic build.

However, my experienced in the game has been that in the long run, it really matters little.

Right now, RIGHT NOW (ooo caps I must be furious) my guy rocks...period.
No I am not the best healer, I am the second best.

No, I am not TWP (two-weapon psycho build), but I do my share.

I do play with understanding people who have fun, so as they say, the ones who love you accept you for who you are.

I will let you all know how I bad I do when I do get to higher levels. If I beleive he is a gimp, an noone want to play with him, then so be it. I have found such prejudice before.

The game is fun, keep it that way.
Exactly at what time do I say "thanks but no thanks" in regards to help.

Is the OP ignorant? I don't think so.

I know that I do not resort to name-calling or insults or continual use of witty sarcasm when I do not agree.

Since the begining of the game I have heard from the bleachers:

1) Don't play a warforged
2) Diplo the chests
3) YOU MUST HAVE DVs? No DVs noone will want you for end-game/
4) Don't use a bow they are nerfed.
5) Don't waste points on that skill.
6)Don't go full-time shield use.
7)and now Don't be a full-time shield using healing Paladin because the Portals in the Shroud don't like it.

Hey guys I understand what your saying, I just ain't doing respect my opinion please.
Doorstop Paladin...thats rich.

[Dexxaan]

.......hmmmm..........

I believe someone rolled VS Paladin Pride........and failed.



Suggest less CON and more CHA on the Doorstop Paladin.

[Valezra]

Since the begining of the game I have heard from the bleachers:

1) Don't play a warforged

Hogwash

2) Diplo the chests

Hogwash

3) YOU MUST HAVE DVs? No DVs noone will want you for end-game/

Hogwash

4) Don't use a bow they are nerfed.

True

5) Don't waste points on that skill.

Depends but yes some skills are a complete waste.

6)Don't go full-time shield use.

Hogwash if you're a real tank and not a nerf bat salesman.

7)and now Don't be a full-time shield using healing Paladin because the Portals in the Shroud don't like it.

True. And a summoned Scorpion will do more damage.



In case you were still unclear on any of those things I went ahead and answered them.

Val

[Mr_Ed7]

In case you were still unclear on any of those things I went ahead and answered them.

Val

Exactly many things have come to be "hogwash" which is why I take any "must have" criticism with a grain of salt (is that a material component?)

[Kadran]

Why don't we let this thread do what this character will excell at: die. :-D

[Dexxaan]

Why don't we let this thread do what this character will excell at: die. :-D

Thats absolutely no fun. I`m back at work, need a few laughs to cheer me up and there you go trying to kill my entertainment...... First Valezra with the EZ button....now you. :mad:

I`m only hoping we get some more humour in here...because like the True paladin our OP is (or claims to be) he at least is perseverant on following his beliefs....no matter how wrong.


I think the term ignorance of ones own ignorance applys here.


See? Thats the kind of material I`m talking about. :D

[Aranticus]

That will most likely not happen, as a previous poster said it will go unnoticed if at all.
What are they gonna say?
I do not believe my 2 s&b builds are on some blacklist somewhere for using shields!

i blacklisted a barbarian for using SnB in shroud

If someone said "In the future your raid party will wipe because you chose to carry a shield and heal people." maybe then I would switch tactics. 'Cause I would hate for my gimpness to bring down an entire quest for 11 others.

there is a time to use a shield and there is a time to whip out an ugly TH weapon to do a little more damage than you can SnB. it isnt just about contributing to a party but rather contributing to the best of your abilities

Perhaps Mhykke would like to see some sort-of "output meter" for quests to make sure everyone is doing their part.

Look busy Mhykke is coming. :eek:

you dun need a meter to check who is the freeloader. word gets around, people can easily observe how good your char really is. many people in this thread are experienced builders, they can tell


The times I have been in the shroud, my first completion was done while playing my towershield wearing Dwarf. Why after using it for 16 levels would I switch it?
I will hit the portal with two-weapons when I go in there with my 2 weapon guy...

I mean I am LOL here, so they don't like the Dwarf, I can always switch characters..can't I lol!

We completed it btw.

but they still tell stories of the Dwarf with the shield...BHWAA hahaha!!!1 :D

they are probably talking about that "idiotic" dwarf who uses a shield because he is afraid the portal will beat him up :cool:

[KoboldKiller]

I say build it however you want to build it, as long as it's fun for you. I am a s&b Pali through and through. That is my preference, it's fits my personal image for a Pali, it's fits my own roll play for my pali. And if someone wants me to pick up a two handed weapon they can bite me. As far as healing spec goes that's going to be a stretch but hey more power to you.

[Mr_Ed7]

Thanks for your support KK but remember...

You are in the Forum Zone, your opinion and personal preferences are wrong here!

[Kadran]

Thanks for your support KK but remember...

You are in the Forum Zone, your opinion and personal preferences are wrong here!

No one is saying your personal preferences are wrong. In fact, they are encouraging you to play whatever you want. What they ARE doing is advising you against this build, in case you thought it would be able to do things that it will not be able to do well.

As you can see by the slowing of responses: people have all but stopped trying to get threw to you. Probably because you are not receptive of their information. People are giving you good tips, and instead of trying to apply them to your character to make it better, you blatently ignore them and make comments like, "There's 5-11 other people to carry me threw the dungeon."

Most people who post a build on the forums do so for advice. To see if there is something they over looked. Or just to see how people will respond to a build that is outside the box. This post, as far as I can tell, was created to show us a build that is sub-optimal and to stick your fingers in your ears and scream "LA LA LA!" While we try to point out the flaws.

A lot of the people here have made a character like this before. We are trying to save you the headache of getting to level 12-16 and realizing that your character sucks. My advice with this build, since you refuse to let us help you modify it, is to use circumstantial weaponry. I.E. Destruction, Maladroit of Bone Breaking, Weakening of Enfeebling, etc.

[toughguyjoe]

So where is the thread about the character in Eddie Boys Sig?

:D

[rezo]

How about a true Paladin that fights and heals...while shield-blocking the door.

A Paladin should be a defensive fighter who can enable the team by playing junior cleric.

So far my Pally is set-up for cure moderate wounds, raise dead, 3 Lay of Hands, cure disease, lesser restoration and more.

Why build intima-paladins and tempest-paladins?

There are enough 2 weapon psychos on the server to the killing...

/signed :p

[Valezra]

So where is the thread about the character in Eddie Boys Sig?

:D

The community can only deal with one crisis at a time.

[Kadran]

My long, really well thought post got ignored on both threads. =/ Did my message sink in? I highly doubt it, but I sincerely hope it did.

[Dexxaan]

My long, really well thought post got ignored on both threads. =/ Did my message sink in? I highly doubt it, but I sincerely hope it did.

Actually it was very clear.

This thread used to be entertaining...now it`s just sad.

[Dexxaan]

As you can see by the slowing of responses: people have all but stopped trying to get threw to you. Probably because you are not receptive of their information. People are giving you good tips, and instead of trying to apply them to your character to make it better, you blatently ignore them and make comments like, "There's 5-11 other people to carry me threw the dungeon."

This post, as far as I can tell, was created to show us a build that is sub-optimal and to stick your fingers in your ears and scream "LA LA LA!" While we try to point out the flaws.


LMAO

Best interpretation of this thread.

[Minor_Threat]

LMAO

Best interpretation of this thread.

It can also be applied to the OP's general disposition.

[Sehenry03]

Well I HAVE to look at this whole thread in one way. The OP HAS to be trying to irritate people cause if he isn't...that means there is a chance I could end up in a group with him or someone like him someday *shivers*

[Dexxaan]

Well I HAVE to look at this whole thread in one way. The OP HAS to be trying to irritate people cause if he isn't...that means there is a chance I could end up in a group with him or someone like him someday *shivers*

Can you imagine if any more people (more so with F2P!) decide to believe this rubbish?


I said it many months ago....there will come a time when Guilds will return to their former (pre Gianthold and lowering of the bar making Raid Loot Farmable and requiring 12 Man Raids....) glory.

And the OP is certainly making it appear so.

[Jondallar]

Can you imagine if any more people (more so with F2P!) decide to believe this rubbish?


I said it many months ago....there will come a time when Guilds will return to their former (pre Gianthold and lowering of the bar making Raid Loot Farmable and requiring 12 Man Raids....) glory.

And the OP is certainly making it appear so.

qft
MOD 9 and DDO:EU is the death of the pug, or at least the pug who gets invited to run with any guild thats any good. With scaling it will be better to 3 man regular quests with your friends than risk some idiot red skulling u, and the quests will be easier to run.. since all the trash mobs have to be killed we definately arent gonna let some weak DPS melee into a group... its like a double handicapped added that takes away from fun and replaces it with frustration

[Mr_Ed7]

Well I am glad we have all had a laugh at all this, some at my own expense, but what can you do.

So some of you would really find issue with someone hitting the portals with only a one handed weapon...AND some of you would blacklist them, eh? That is a fairly harsh thing to do.

I mean I am using a khopesh...does that not count for anything?

I would miss my shield very much, my shield was the best protector ever, and I just want to say that I love him...so much. I love him...so much I love him...so much

<kick shield, sniffle, walk away in disgrace because I got pwnd on the forums>

[Mhykke]

Well I am glad we have all had a laugh at all this, some at my own expense, but what can you do.

So some of you would really find issue with someone hitting the portals with only a one handed weapon...AND some of you would blacklist them, eh? That is a fairly harsh thing to do.>

Not blacklist them. But people definitely notice.....and others that do more damage on portals, b/c they realize that portals don't fight back and they don't need a shield, would get taken over that person every time.



I mean I am using a khopesh...does that not count for anything?.>

No, b/c are constructs.


I would miss my shield very much, my shield was the best protector ever, and I just want to say that I love him...so much. I love him...so much I love him...so much?.>

That's great. But just b/c have a shield doesn't mean you need to carry it all the time.

[Aspenor]

qft
MOD 9 and DDO:EU is the death of the pug, or at least the pug who gets invited to run with any guild thats any good. With scaling it will be better to 3 man regular quests with your friends than risk some idiot red skulling u, and the quests will be easier to run.. since all the trash mobs have to be killed we definately arent gonna let some weak DPS melee into a group... its like a double handicapped added that takes away from fun and replaces it with frustration

I'm not 100% sure but I was under the impression raids do not scale to party size.

[Jondallar]

I'm not 100% sure but I was under the impression raids do not scale to party size.
SHHHHHH! dont tell frenchy. I have been pushing for exclusion of pugs from guild runs since the shroud came out.;)

Also the wilderness areas to get to the dungeons/raids scale

[epochofcrepuscule]

I am not upset.

I understand that your stacking of numbers is more effective than my aestetic build.

---quote from paladins in PnP D&D... this is what seperates paladins and clerics basically since you think you have an aesthetic build. "Paladins have all the faith and fervor that any priest wields, but we know that in the end it is our arm that swings the sword. Not our prayers." Take it to heart bud....----

However, my experienced in the game has been that in the long run, it really matters little.

-----your long run must of been very very short-----

Right now, RIGHT NOW (ooo caps I must be furious) my guy rocks...period.
No I am not the best healer, I am the second best.

---caps generally mean yelling or an increased emotional state while typing. Use some common sense and adjust accordingly... though with your build idea you probably dont have much.-----

No, I am not TWP (two-weapon psycho build), but I do my share.

---i would boot you and get a hireling paladin for more dps... your share sucks-----

I do play with understanding people who have fun, so as they say, the ones who love you accept you for who you are.

---the ones who love you put up with who you are... we all need someone to laugh at----

I will let you all know how I bad I do when I do get to higher levels. If I beleive he is a gimp, an noone want to play with him, then so be it. I have found such prejudice before.

---we dont you to tell us, we know the game, we know your character will suck and be a complete detriment to any party at endgame. Have you not been reading the responses?-----

The game is fun, keep it that way.
Exactly at what time do I say "thanks but no thanks" in regards to help.

---you can say thanks by telling your guild, "guys, this will blow your minds... but i am going to make a useful build".----

Is the OP ignorant? I don't think so.

-----ignorant, its not an insult, look it up. i can post the definition if you are to lazy to do so.----

I know that I do not resort to name-calling or insults or continual use of witty sarcasm when I do not agree.

-----good for you, accept peoples personalities as to how they respond to things... you want people to accept your worthless build... 2 way street ..... or get out of your moms basement if thats not realized yet----

Since the begining of the game I have heard from the bleachers:

1) Don't play a warforged ----PLAY WF, WE ARE THE GODS OF EBERRON---- *corrected*
2) Diplo the chests---never heard it----
3) YOU MUST HAVE DVs? No DVs noone will want you for end-game/----my cleric has no dvs, dvs are for gimps... they make pots for sp... use em----
4) Don't use a bow they are nerfed. ---yup, true story---
5) Don't waste points on that skill. ----waste points on whatever skill ya want, noone has to know----
6)Don't go full-time shield use.---- use a shield all the time, just not for things that dont hit back.... kinda common sense-----
7)and now Don't be a full-time shield using healing Paladin because the Portals in the Shroud don't like it.---glad you understand this one.... plenty of guides on here to help you maximize a paladins potential being a pure pally----

Hey guys I understand what your saying, I just ain't doing respect my opinion please. -- we dont need to respect it, YOU posted it on the forums.... this is where the trolls live, this is where the powergamers are spending there time since we havent had much to do since mod 7----
Doorstop Paladin...thats rich. ----does what you want your build to do.. but better!----

Well, as I dont the color code stuff.. sad i know.... my comments look roughly like so ----sdfghasjldf------ :D


last thing bud, if you were in my guild and constantly made worthless builds because 5 (in grp) 11 (in raids) make up for you sorry self.... you would be booted. I wouldnt care if you were in that guild for 3 years. Noone drags my guild name in the dirt because they dont wanna be beneficial to a party. If you are in the Shadow thieves though... 'nough said. You can also ignore all my comments as well. (ANYONE on argo knows EXACTLY what i mean)

[Dexxaan]

Well I am glad we have all had a laugh at all this, ALL at my own expense, but what can you do.

<kick shield, sniffle, walk away in disgrace because I got pwnd on the forums>

Fixed it for you---

[Mr_Ed7]

Well, as I dont the color code stuff.. sad i know.... my comments look roughly like so ----sdfghasjldf------ :D


last thing bud, if you were in my guild and constantly made worthless builds because 5 (in grp) 11 (in raids) make up for you sorry self.... you would be booted. I wouldnt care if you were in that guild for 3 years. Noone drags my guild name in the dirt because they dont wanna be beneficial to a party. If you are in the Shadow thieves though... 'nough said. You can also ignore all my comments as well. (ANYONE on argo knows EXACTLY what i mean)

My philosophy on the 5/1 is a philosophy that I have always had, but not applied to me silly-heads.

No, I have beleived this philosophy while pugging, with others...in case of the new player, or the person who gets lost, or whatever.

I have not played for 3 years and not pulled my weight sir.

Besides, I play with my guildies and friends so they are willing...as am I, to make consolations for others.

Its like playing with a pug of any characters, no party build. It will be ok if one is weaker than the other.

I knew many would misunderstand my 5/1 philosophy. Your militant stances on it are amusing though.

[Mr_Ed7]

Well, as I dont the color code stuff.. sad i know.... my comments look roughly like so ----sdfghasjldf------ :D


last thing bud, if you were in my guild and constantly made worthless builds because 5 (in grp) 11 (in raids) make up for you sorry self.... you would be booted. I wouldnt care if you were in that guild for 3 years. Noone drags my guild name in the dirt because they dont wanna be beneficial to a party. If you are in the Shadow thieves though... 'nough said. You can also ignore all my comments as well. (ANYONE on argo knows EXACTLY what i mean)

Whoever you are ... you are an antagonistic , loud mouth shnook. Go _ yourself!

You need the skill diplomacy.

Play the game YOUR WAY!

Mom's basement, sounds like that is where you are.
Ignorant f.

[Delt]

Whoever you are ... you are an antagonistic , loud mouth shnook. Go _ yourself!

You need the skill diplomacy.

Play the game YOUR WAY!

Mom's basement, sounds like that is where you are.
Ignorant f.

Oh oh, the guy going out of his way to make both himself and his guild look like total gimps is getting ANGRY! Suffer the barrage of fill-in-the-blanks and abbreviations of vulgarities!

[oberon131313]

my favorite part is how he replies to the post, then replies again to the same post 8 minutes later. I guess he really *is* upset.

[SteeleTrueheart]

I implore all posters to not despoil the Paladin forum with this pointless bickering and name calling. Please show some restraint and just ignore any inflammatory remarks.

Drama is for the Server forums... and the uncouth Barbarian forum. ;)

Please just let this thread die.

[Surista]

After reading this thread I have determined the desire to be a "Paladin" who stands in doors healing with a shield and blocks things, but yet you just don't want to be an effective team player and go against the morality of actually protecting people for your own pride. Why not just stand at the dungeon entrance door way blocking everyone else from getting inside instead? I mean, really you'll have everything with your 5-11 people mentality pulling you and being the "True Paladin" who truely is good....at holding things back.

[Dexxaan]

Anyone voting for trademarking the 5-11 Philosophy?

I need to start putting: No 5-11's pls. in my LFM's :cool:

[oberon131313]

Anyone voting for trademarking the 5-11 Philosophy?

I need to start putting: No 5-11's pls. in my LFM's :cool:

I think it's 5-1's, but +1 rep anyways

[KKDragonLord]

Guys! i can't believe this, we are all missing the point here!

Hey Op! Whats the name of your Pally and what server are you on?

there, problem solved.

about all these things we are trying to say, forget about it, the truth will come out on its own

i am proud of my pure wf thf pally and even i regret not being as good as a twf version or a true dps class
imagine what the Op is inevitably going to feel like when he gets to end game.

Full Pally is awesome until lvl 14 obviously the Op is not going to understand what we are trying to say until he starts doing lvl15+ quests.

[Mr_Ed7]

The real point is to allow people to play as they like...that is the real message.

I do believe in the 5/1 philosophy...as gimpy or nerfy as a character is the others in the party can carry them. Typically I am in the "5" category, but if I happen to be the "1", I am sure through good-natured team-work we will still get the job done.

Yes, I was mad at that one poster...and?

If you guys want to attempt a futile blacklisting, go for it. I do not blacklist or tell people how to play.

I understand your TWF or THF does more damage to...portals than I do...but does it really matter?

I am playing the guy as I see fit, as others have said they do in this post and others.

Dexx quit flaming. Do you talk in a loud, "special" voice and jump up and down when things excite you? Pointing "LOOK! LOOK! NA-HA! NA-HA! I LIKE!

[Mhykke]

Yes, I was mad at that one poster...and?

Flashback to earlier in this thread:


No ones upset.


I am not upset.

[Aranticus]

I do believe in the 5/1 philosophy...as gimpy or nerfy as a character is the others in the party can carry them. Typically I am in the "5" category, but if I happen to be the "1", I am sure through good-natured team-work we will still get the job done.


I believe that if you have the nerfiest character in the raid...its ok, there are 11 other in the group...


The times I have been in the shroud, my first completion was done while playing my towershield wearing Dwarf. Why after using it for 16 levels would I switch it?
I will hit the portal with two-weapons when I go in there with my 2 weapon guy...


Flashback to earlier in this thread:

we have another flashback

[Aranticus]

I implore all posters to not despoil the Paladin forum with this pointless bickering and name calling. Please show some restraint and just ignore any inflammatory remarks.

Drama is for the Server forums... and the uncouth Barbarian forum. ;)

Please just let this thread die.

heh the pally forum was despoiled the moment OP posted this thread ;)

[Mr_Ed7]

Flashback to earlier in this thread:

So yes I was not upset then ...with you, but the particular poster in question I was mad at.

What are you a little girl anyway?

This post was originally about having fun with my character.
There are different ways to make your character...again if I want to play a THF with Intimidate I will play my Barbarian.

Get over it.
What I am hearing is "make your guy like my guy..."

So the worst that can happen is I happen to be in the Shroud with you uber-elitist and you see me holding a shield..then what? Ask me to grab another weapon? Ask me to switch to my Barb?

Not a big deal how I play one guy!

[KKDragonLord]

So yes I was not upset then ...with you, but the particular poster in question I was mad at.

What are you a little girl anyway?

This post was originally about having fun with my character.
There are different ways to make your character...again if I want to play a THF with Intimidate I will play my Barbarian.

Get over it.
What I am hearing is "make your guy like my guy..."

So the worst that can happen is I happen to be in the Shroud with you uber-elitist and you see me holding a shield..then what? Ask me to grab another weapon? Ask me to switch to my Barb?

Not a big deal how I play one guy!

No, what you are hearing is advice on how to be a valuable member of the party in high level content, with very mild suggestions on when and how to lay down your very restricted playstyle for specific co-op intensive situations.

Also, if you don't care so much, why are you so afraid to give out your character name and server?
Don't you want to NOT have to run quests while being talked down by all these "rabbid forum elitists"?

Wouldn't you prefer to be blacklisted on that character by these closed minded individuals?

[Mhykke]

So yes I was not upset then ...with you, but the particular poster in question I was mad at.

What are you a little girl anyway?

This post was originally about having fun with my character.
There are different ways to make your character...again if I want to play a THF with Intimidate I will play my Barbarian.

Get over it.
What I am hearing is "make your guy like my guy..."

So the worst that can happen is I happen to be in the Shroud with you uber-elitist and you see me holding a shield..then what? Ask me to grab another weapon? Ask me to switch to my Barb?

Not a big deal how I play one guy!

Wow, that flashback got quite the response. Sorry for hitting a nerve.

I never said make your guy like my guy. All I said was don't make him like your guy in this thread, b/c that guy can't damage, and he can't heal well. It's a meatbag taking up a spot.

And uber elitist? Funny. I seem to remember taking the first people to hit my lfm's. How am I an "uber elitist"?

[Jondallar]

How am I an "uber elitist"?
because sometimes Ransacked lets u join our groups

[Dexxaan]

Dexx quit flaming. Do you talk in a loud, "special" voice and jump up and down when things excite you? Pointing "LOOK! LOOK! NA-HA! NA-HA! I LIKE!

Was my webcam on? :D

.....and to answer your question.... heres my card.

http://i374.photobucket.com/albums/oo181/Theopolis/Threadinator1.jpg

[Mr_Ed7]

Was my webcam on? :D

.....and to answer your question.... heres my card.

http://i374.photobucket.com/albums/oo181/Theopolis/Threadinator1.jpg

Fair enough. I like & I like you.

[Mr_Ed7]

Was my webcam on? :D

.....and to answer your question.... heres my card.

http://i374.photobucket.com/albums/oo181/Theopolis/Threadinator1.jpg

I like & I like you a little more.

[Tanka]

Was my webcam on? :D

.....and to answer your question.... heres my card.

http://i374.photobucket.com/albums/oo181/Theopolis/Threadinator1.jpg
Psh. You're nowhere cool enough to have your own MtG card.

[Dexxaan]

Psh. You're nowhere cool enough to have your own MtG card.

It was a gift from a Forum Friend......the result of hours of study and psychoanalysis. :D

[Dexxaan]

Heres a bump so you can find the inspiration material to the Doorstop Build.

[Mr_Ed7]

Still having fun with my paladin.

Lead the way thorugh the dungeon, stopping at strategic points for casters and archers to mount safe attacks from while one or two hand-picked killers in my team drive ahead.

Draw some undead the old fashion way, turtle-up now and then to cast a series of powerful Divine Lights when needed.

Helped the Cleric out when he was out of mana by tossing around 4 100+ hp Lay of Hands. As well as constant wand-whipping when in dire straights. Loaded up some Neutralize Poison, Remove Curse, and Remove Blindness wands just in case also.

Using my Falchion or a Longsword I bring down a posible (4) 200hp of damage SMITES!

All of the above abilities were instrumental when we went up against the undead of The Cursed Crypt and the preceeding quests. Against the vampire boss Maldetto, all 3 of the Paladin's abilites were utilized to aid in destroying him.

[Aranticus]

Still having fun with my paladin.

Lead the way thorugh the dungeon, stopping at strategic points for casters and archers to mount safe attacks from while one or two hand-picked killers in my team drive ahead.

my fighter hit 60+ ac easily in twf mode, with intimidate, i dun need others to kill, i'll just kill them myself

Draw some undead the old fashion way, turtle-up now and then to cast a series of powerful Divine Lights when needed.

Helped the Cleric out when he was out of mana by tossing around 4 100+ hp Lay of Hands. As well as constant wand-whipping when in dire straights. Loaded up some Neutralize Poison, Remove Curse, and Remove Blindness wands just in case also.

with 30 umd i can back up as a healer and carry 100 heal, restore, ddoor scrolls to complement my various status removal pots

Using my Falchion or a Longsword I bring down a posible (4) 200hp of damage SMITES!

i crit with my khopesh for 150, regular hits at 50

All of the above abilities were instrumental when we went up against the undead of The Cursed Crypt and the preceeding quests. Against the vampire boss Maldetto, all 3 of the Paladin's abilites were utilized to aid in destroying him.

my caster solos cursed crypt

[Mr_Ed7]

my caster solos cursed crypt

I now know how old you are.

Is my Paladin in competion with a party of your characters?

[Aranticus]

I now know how old you are.

Is my Paladin in competion with a party of your characters?

yeah i'm young but i dun need the contributions of others to justify a playstyle that doesnt do much for a party :cool:

[Dexxaan]

Aranticus said:

* my fighter hit 60+ ac easily in twf mode, with intimidate, i dun need others to kill, i'll just kill them myself


* with 30 umd i can back up as a healer and carry 100 heal, restore, ddoor scrolls to complement my various status removal pots

* i crit with my khopesh for 150, regular hits at 50


Couldn't have put it better meself.



yeah i'm young but i dun need the contributions of others to justify a playstyle that doesnt do much for a party :cool:

Ouch! - Are you referring to the 5/1 Philosophy? :eek:

[Judo]

who blocks doors anymore?

[Mazeratti]

Im beginning to be glad I was strong against friends urging me along a healing Pali path after reading this thread :)

Still waiting to see where I will fit in though with my Pure Pali.

[Aranticus]

Aranticus said:

* my fighter hit 60+ ac easily in twf mode, with intimidate, i dun need others to kill, i'll just kill them myself


* with 30 umd i can back up as a healer and carry 100 heal, restore, ddoor scrolls to complement my various status removal pots

* i crit with my khopesh for 150, regular hits at 50


Couldn't have put it better meself.




Ouch! - Are you referring to the 5/1 Philosophy? :eek:

man! ya a sharp one i must say ;)

[Mr_Ed7]

Yeah well I am a Paladin, which is not a Fighter nor is a Fighter a Paladin.

I do not have to Intimidate nor be the top killer in the party. I have no plans to be the top healer either.

I can be a secondary killer & healer though.

Quoting a 5/1 policy misses the boat. This is a policy I have believed in the last 3 years while leading parties, not to justify a Paladin that I made at end-game.

You forget that my "fun-level" trumps your number-stacking and your opinion considering its my guy.

Have fun making & posting "builds".

*yawn*

[rezo]

Yeah well I am a Paladin, which is not a Fighter nor is a Fighter a Paladin.

I do not have to Intimidate nor be the top killer in the party. I have no plans to be the top healer either.

I can be a secondary killer & healer though.

Quoting a 5/1 policy misses the boat. This is a policy I have believed in the last 3 years while leading parties, not to justify a Paladin that I made at end-game.

You forget that my "fun-level" trumps your number-stacking and your opinion considering its my guy.

Have fun making & posting "builds".

*yawn*

Right on man, it's just a game not a life, lol.

Well, maybe not to all. :D

[Aranticus]

Yeah well I am a Paladin, which is not a Fighter nor is a Fighter a Paladin.

I do not have to Intimidate nor be the top killer in the party. I have no plans to be the top healer either.

I can be a secondary killer & healer though.

Quoting a 5/1 policy misses the boat. This is a policy I have believed in the last 3 years while leading parties, not to justify a Paladin that I made at end-game.

You forget that my "fun-level" trumps your number-stacking and your opinion considering its my guy.

Have fun making & posting "builds".

*yawn*

note that the main point isnt how you play your paladin but rather how you expouse your playstyle to be relevant and from some of the posts, superior. the problem isnt with you or your groups but when players, especially new players who pick up this rabble, they will have an impact on my groups when they join. to even give the notation that its ok for a player to suck because 5 others can carry them thru the quest is isnt worse

play what you like, if your playstyle is not the norm, do caution. with a title like "true paladin" makes new players think that it must be the right way to play a pally when in fact its probably the last way to play one

you dun have to be the top killer or healer, you just have to be able to pick up the dps role when its needed. you just have to be able to stop gap heal the party when the healer is disposed. when your groups are 1 tank, your pally, 1 rog, 1 caster, 1 healer, 1 other, your pally will have a niche. but when you roll with 1 melee (your type of pally), 3 rog, 1 caster, 1 healer, what are you going to do?

[Mhykke]

but when you roll with 1 melee (your type of pally), 3 rog, 1 caster, 1 healer, what are you going to do?

Wipe?

;):D:)

[rezo]

Rogues FTW!!!!!!

[Aranticus]

Wipe?

;):D:)

between the few threads, we seem to have developed a mutual understanding :eek:

[Kordan]

A sorcerer swinging away with their Spell Pen and Potency scepters can contribute to DPS.

Val

What's a sorcerer doing with a Spell Pen? :P

[Dexxaan]

who blocks doors anymore?

Well Judo, all I can say is: Meet MrEd_7. :D


........to even give the notation that its ok for a player to suck because 5 others can carry them thru the quest is isnt worse - LOL

play what you like, if your playstyle is not the norm, do caution. with a title like "true paladin" makes new players think that it must be the right way to play a pally when in fact its probably the last way to play one - Bad Precedent and poor beginner player Info.

......snip..... but when you roll with 1 melee (your type of pally), 3 rog, 1 caster, 1 healer, what are you going to do? - The answer is pretty obvious but I`ll let Mhykke spll it out....


Wipe?

;):D:)

LMAO.


between the few threads, we seem to have developed a mutual understanding :eek:

It would be quite incredible if either of you supported the True Paladin concept.... or the 5/1 philosophy.... so don`t be surprised.

[Alcides]

There are enough 2 weapon psychos on the server to the killing...

Clearly you are not well versed with the Raiding Holy Trinity of MMOs. You have 3 character archetypes.
1. Tank - An individual who manages the aggro, and mitigates a majority of the incoming damage of an encounter, in order to minimize resources consumed to beat said encounter.
2. DPS - An individual who maximizes damage done to mobs during an encounter in order to reduce encounter duration.
3. Healer - An individual who keeps the party alive during an encounter, with a minimal consumption of resources used during the encounter.

A paladin healer is not Spell Power or Resource Efficient. Therefore, it is not a viable raid spec. A "True Paladin" is one that tanks well all the time(normally a hybrid) or does a lot of DPS (Pure with Divine Might, Knight of Chalice). Those 2 weapon psychos are way more important than the 20-30 Heal Scrolls you might use.

[Absolute-Omniscience]

I can be a secondary killer & healer though.


No, you can't.

[shores11]

How about a true Paladin that fights and heals...while shield-blocking the door.

A Paladin should be a defensive fighter who can enable the team by playing junior cleric.

So far my Pally is set-up for cure moderate wounds, raise dead, 3 Lay of Hands, cure disease, lesser restoration and more.

Why build intima-paladins and tempest-paladins?

There are enough 2 weapon psychos on the server to the killing...

I agree to a certain point. My paladin (pure paladin) can heal and does help the party in healing, he also has a very high AC and provides protection for the party when the barbs/fighters are dropping like flies because their AC is barely above thier main ability score. He is also an effective fighter but I am not illusioned into thinking he does the kind of damage a fighter/barb can do unless he hits an exalted smite. But I would really stop short of calling him a jr. cleric as I did not want him to do this function to a great extent.

My paladin uses a sword and shield and is not a TWF build I agree there are better options for this type of build. I believe one of the main attributes a paladin provides is as a support everything i.e. healing, fighting and don't forget those nice aura's a paladin gives off if taken advantage of.

[baddax]

The paladin is primarily a support class IMO, they make everyones saves and AC better. Though the can (if builf properly) and do various party roles. DPS,Spot healer,Tank etc.

A well built paladin can
1)Provides Ac and Saves boost for most of the party (all of the party within the radius of there aura).
2) maintain Agro from weaker party members.
3) help the party healers rez/heal if players start to drop or Die
4) provide significant DPS especially against undead and evil outsiders.

[Mr_Ed7]

The paladin is primarily a support class IMO, they make everyones saves and AC better. Though the can (if builf properly) and do various party roles. DPS,Spot healer,Tank etc.

A well built paladin can
1)Provides Ac and Saves boost for most of the party (all of the party within the radius of there aura).
2) maintain Agro from weaker party members.
3) help the party healers rez/heal if players start to drop or Die
4) provide significant DPS especially against undead and evil outsiders.

Well said.

[Mr_Ed7]

Clearly you are not well versed with the Raiding Holy Trinity of MMOs. You have 3 character archetypes.
1. Tank - An individual who manages the aggro, and mitigates a majority of the incoming damage of an encounter, in order to minimize resources consumed to beat said encounter.
2. DPS - An individual who maximizes damage done to mobs during an encounter in order to reduce encounter duration.
3. Healer - An individual who keeps the party alive during an encounter, with a minimal consumption of resources used during the encounter.

A paladin healer is not Spell Power or Resource Efficient. Therefore, it is not a viable raid spec. A "True Paladin" is one that tanks well all the time(normally a hybrid) or does a lot of DPS (Pure with Divine Might, Knight of Chalice). Those 2 weapon psychos are way more important than the 20-30 Heal Scrolls you might use.

Last I played Dungeons & Dragons we did not use such terminology.

[Aranticus]

The paladin is primarily a support class IMO, they make everyones saves and AC better. Though the can (if builf properly) and do various party roles. DPS,Spot healer,Tank etc.

A well built paladin can
1)Provides Ac and Saves boost for most of the party (all of the party within the radius of there aura).

thats what the pre mod 7/8 (cant remember which one) do. with the inclusion of DM, DS and ES, pallys can now not only provide support but contribute in a meaningful way

2) maintain Agro from weaker party members.

how? intimidate is a x-class skill and thus pure pallys pay a huge hit on it. sure you can have a higher cha but again by what sacrifice, the higher the cha, the lower the str, con, dex

by dps? other classes are better at it

3) help the party healers rez/heal if players start to drop or Die

anyone with umd, clickies can do that

4) provide significant DPS especially against undead and evil outsiders.

how so against undead? turn undead or divine light? laughable. as to evil outsiders, you are also looking at a very dps oriented pally which is likely to fill a niche role ie dps rather than the generalist builds the OP is talking about

[Aranticus]

Last I played Dungeons & Dragons we did not use such terminology.

last i knew, this is a dungeons & dragons MMO called DDO and not PnP ddo. PnP builds do not work well in DDO, when i first started 3 years ago, i tried making a balance elf fighter. at L8 with 120 hp, 30 ac, i thought i was uber

my new wiz have 200+ at L13....

[baddax]

how so against undead? turn undead or divine light? laughable. as to evil outsiders, you are also looking at a very dps oriented pally which is likely to fill a niche role ie dps rather than the generalist builds the OP is talking about

1) Divine righteousnes. for Agro management. I doubt many will do the amount of DPS necessary to pull agro should a pally use this ability.

2) It doesnt matter that Intim is a cross class skill a well built/equiped pally should be able to intim all but the most dificult mobs if they so choose to spend the skill points for it.

3) Divine sacrifice works very well on undead. 7d6 i believe for tier 2. + pally capstone is what 4d6? when it comes out.

4) Heal and Rez abilites are still nice to have. The nice thing is it is a part of the character build and does not require UMD or other resources (scrolls and wands).

My whole point is a well built pally may not be the best healer, highest dps, etc etc. but can help any party in a variety of ways.

[toughguyjoe]

3) Divine sacrifice works very well on undead. 7d6 i believe for tier 2. + pally capstone is what 4d6? when it comes out.


He isn't talking about Divine Sacrifice. He said: Divine Light.

Divine light is an enhancement a paladin or cleric can take that expends a use of their turn undead to deal damage to undead in the immediate area around the character.

I've never used it so i don't remember its damage or AP cost but my guess on cost is 1/2/3.

I read it once, found it to be beneath my notice.

[Aranticus]

1) Divine righteousnes. for Agro management. I doubt many will do the amount of DPS necessary to pull agro should a pally use this ability.

divine righteous is based on the dps you do. the more dps the greater the hate and more importantly, if you invest in the dps to do hate, other abilities will suffer. unless you splash mnk to get wisdom bonus, it is very difficult to have a sufficient ac on a twf pally, go snb you generate so little dps that your hate doesnt matter

2) It doesnt matter that Intim is a cross class skill a well built/equiped pally should be able to intim all but the most dificult mobs if they so choose to spend the skill points for it.

wrong, it matters. a pally lacks the intim enhancements of a fighter (+4) and being a cross class skill 1/2 the skills (+12), kensai PRC gives +3 or defender for +4. thats at least a difference of ~20. try making it up with cha. just in case you have not made an intimitank before, my current fighter spent 2 feats, 13 APs to get 60 intimidate (vod orthons are approx at 45 intim, suulo norm is 56, hound norm 70s). trash mobs do not need intim, they are desposed easily enough so why spend skill points trying to get trash?

3) Divine sacrifice works very well on undead. 7d6 i believe for tier 2. + pally capstone is what 4d6? when it comes out.

10hp 1 sp, cooldown ~3s in which a pure fighter would have made up the difference based on higher str and specialisation. wait, against non "pally FE" a fighter pulls way ahead!

4) Heal and Rez abilites are still nice to have. The nice thing is it is a part of the character build and does not require UMD or other resources (scrolls and wands).

My whole point is a well built pally may not be the best healer, highest dps, etc etc. but can help any party in a variety of ways.

true that the heal and rez is part of the character build and is very nice to have. i cant remember how many times my old pally survived due to LoH. problem is investing in these abilities tear into my ability to do stuff. more LoH = APs spent, more heal = more devotion = APs spent, where do they come from?

the problem i have isnt with the pally but rather how intensive they are in terms of AP investment, feat investment to make a really good build which rocks. a pally is awesome to play mod 3-5. i had a pally who could do alot of stuff due to its immunities and abilities. with the entry of shroud, you can craft a triple neg item and in 1 item, confer most of a pallys immunity to any class. thats the gripe i have

[Mr_Ed7]

1)My whole point is a well built pally may not be the best healer, highest dps, etc etc. but can help any party in a variety of ways.

My point too.

Also, If you are not shield-blocking, then you may be causing needless mana waste.

I can tell, that many times, rogues, clerics, casters, and rangers are quite pleased that I am holding the door for them...

...and the two-weapon psychos are on the ouchy side of my shield. It is actually fun to play as such...really its fun.

No I am not kidding I am having fun playing my Paladin, which was actually the real point of the OP!

LoL

[Aranticus]

My point too.

Also, If you are not shield-blocking, then you may be causing needless mana waste.

I can tell, that many times, rogues, clerics, casters, and rangers are quite pleased that I am holding the door for them...

why shield block when you have an untouchable ac?

...and the two-weapon psychos are on the ouchy side of my shield. It is actually fun to play as such...really its fun.

what ac are you at? my twf fighter runs around with 60+ ac. when there are mobs ie like suulomades, i put on my shield and tank too

No I am not kidding I am having fun playing my Paladin, which was actually the real point of the OP!

LoL

you keep saying stuff that people can do, if not better

[toughguyjoe]

Also, If you are not shield-blocking, then you may be causing needless mana waste.


You just said that A pally SHOULD be standing in the doorway shield blocking because otherwise the cleric is going to have to sit there and heal him? Who exactly do you play with? I had no idea people were firewalling a doorway and having everyone plug it up and use the bad AI of the game in their favor.

That kinda sounds like someone an old school pen and paper player wouldn't be much into? ya dig?



I can tell, that many times, rogues, clerics, casters, and rangers are quite pleased that I am holding the door for them...

Just remember whose cloak is whose and you'll keep your job. Just don't expect any tips.

[Alcides]

Last I played Dungeons & Dragons we did not use such terminology.

This may be Dungeons and Dragons Online. However, it's still an MMO. And it can basically watered down to a resource management game. The trick to any encounter is to minimize the amount of resources used to beat that encounter. PnP arguments don't apply in this context, as the combat system in DDO takes into account more variables than PnP rules. You can further argue if you like, but this game is basically no different in essence than any other MMO with the tank, dps, healer paradigms. Paladin's are backup healers, not true healers. The only 2 true healers this game has is clerics, and bards. And honestly, if you want to be a melee group healer you should be a monk and use ki to heal the party which consumes no resources.

[Riorik]

Your 40+ score is but an exaggeration I am assuming. We are not talking about a hypothetical situation, I have shield-blocked the door, and I have healed.

It's a realistic example - not an exaggeration. Isn't the concentration check something like 15+damage taken?



I can be a secondary killer & healer though.


I'd have to disagree with this one. There are far better ways to be a killer or a healer. At best, from what you describe, you're going to be a third tier melee build which puts you pretty close to Wizard/Sorceror damage.

On healing...second tier healers are usually healing spec'd Bards or multi-class Clerics that have splashed in Monk/Fighter/Paladin. You'd also be a third tier or worse healer.

I guess what I'm trying to write is...every character has the potential to do a limited amount of stuff really well. It's a matter of focus - you can spread out and de-focus, but there's still a finite amount of stuff you can be good at. Show me a character good at everything and I think an analysis would show it's only mediocre at everything.

What I'd say is, you suggested your build would like to focus on a few things - mainly being able to block a door and backup heal and then you'd be ok on melee -- and this from your PnP background.

Most of the responses (from actually playing the game) are, not only are you wrong, but you're dead wrong. Your character will be nowhere near as effective as you think even doing the tasks that you believe you are 'focused' to do...which just means the rest of it is further down the hill. Your idea of secondary focus is in the category of "just plain awful".

And - I even write that from the perspective of a guy that doesn't really play uber-optimized builds. Pulling a number from the sky, mine might be 80%+ of the maximum DPS potential but they do some stuff other than just DPS as a tradeoff...and I like/prefer that style of play.

I'd say, don't multiclass if you don't want to, but there are much better way's to do your character than what you suggest...just follow some of the advice.

[Thrudh]

wrong, it matters. a pally lacks the intim enhancements of a fighter (+4) and being a cross class skill 1/2 the skills (+12), kensai PRC gives +3 or defender for +4. thats at least a difference of ~20. try making it up with cha. just in case you have not made an intimitank before, my current fighter spent 2 feats, 13 APs to get 60 intimidate (vod orthons are approx at 45 intim, suulo norm is 56, hound norm 70s). trash mobs do not need intim, they are desposed easily enough so why spend skill points trying to get trash?


FYI, there are plenty of times where intimidating trash is quite useful...

Also, the orthans in VoD normal can be intimidated consistently with a 40 intimidate...

[Thrudh]

10hp 1 sp, cooldown ~3s in which a pure fighter would have made up the difference based on higher str and specialisation. wait, against non "pally FE" a fighter pulls way ahead!


It's 5 hp and 1 sp... very easy to spam it constantly... 7d6 every 3 seconds is not bad

And don't forget Divine Might and Divine Favor... Divine Might III gives +6 damage to every hit... Divine Favor gives +3 damage..

That's +9 damage that works on everything...

The devs have done a good job evening out all the classes... Barbarians have rage, rangers have favored enemies, Paladins have the above, Fighters have the specialization feats..

And then of course, in Mod 9, everyone (except rangers) get even more DPS...

[Thrudh]

Clearly you are not well versed with the Raiding Holy Trinity of MMOs. You have 3 character archetypes.
1. Tank - An individual who manages the aggro, and mitigates a majority of the incoming damage of an encounter, in order to minimize resources consumed to beat said encounter.
2. DPS - An individual who maximizes damage done to mobs during an encounter in order to reduce encounter duration.
3. Healer - An individual who keeps the party alive during an encounter, with a minimal consumption of resources used during the encounter.


You forgot:

4. Crowd Control

And buffing is pretty important... where does that fit in?

[Alcides]

You forgot:

4. Crowd Control

And buffing is pretty important... where does that fit in?

I can see an argument for Crowd Control as an archetype. However, I personally believe that it's the job of tanks to handle a majority of the aggro in an encounter (95%+). Not to mention when a DPS archetype can kill a mob in under 5 seconds, while a tank has it's aggro...What's the point of having a Crowd Control archetype? Also when a mob is immune to Crowd Control, it's normally not immune to damage. So I would say Crowd Control is a secondary function.

Buffing is a also secondary function. You can slap a cleric and bard in a party have all the essential buff spells covered (save Stoneskin).

[Thrudh]

I can see an argument for Crowd Control as an archetype. However, I personally believe that it's the job of tanks to handle a majority of the aggro in an encounter (95%+). Not to mention when a DPS archetype can kill a mob in under 5 seconds, while a tank has it's aggro...What's the point of having a Crowd Control archetype? Also when a mob is immune to Crowd Control, it's normally not immune to damage. So I would say Crowd Control is a secondary function.

Buffing is a also secondary function. You can slap a cleric and bard in a party have all the essential buff spells covered (save Stoneskin).

Tanks controlling aggro is more of a archetype in other MMOs...

We don't see tanks controlling aggro as much in DDO...

Crowd Control spells are much more effective in DDO...

I would actually say, in THIS game, Crowd Control is one of the three archetypes, and tanks (using hate or intimidate) are a subset of CC.

[baddax]

true that the heal and rez is part of the character build and is very nice to have. i cant remember how many times my old pally survived due to LoH. problem is investing in these abilities tear into my ability to do stuff. more LoH = APs spent, more heal = more devotion = APs spent, where do they come from?

the problem i have isnt with the pally but rather how intensive they are in terms of AP investment, feat investment to make a really good build which rocks. a pally is awesome to play mod 3-5. i had a pally who could do alot of stuff due to its immunities and abilities. with the entry of shroud, you can craft a triple neg item and in 1 item, confer most of a pallys immunity to any class. thats the gripe i have


ok, now i understand your point. I have not looked at the cost/benifit of third tier pally pre's. As for the enhancement costs as is yeah some are to expensive and force tough decisions. For example on my 14 pally 2monk i do not cary the Rez ability for this reason.

As a side note when are Red named Orthons considered trash?

[baddax]

Why all the pally hate, i dont see people complaining about no DPS pure bards?
Lastly +4 to AC and +4 to saves for an entire quest is nothing to sneeze at.

[Alcides]

Tanks controlling aggro is more of a archetype in other MMOs...

We don't see tanks controlling aggro as much in DDO...

Crowd Control spells are much more effective in DDO...

I would actually say, in THIS game, Crowd Control is one of the three archetypes, and tanks (using hate or intimidate) are a subset of CC.

I would say that is a correct assessment for the level 16 content of this game; however, I would say that is not quite a correct assessment of the level 20 content to come. First of all, Crowd Control spells are dependent upon saving throws. Intimidate checks are not. As levels increase, saving throw DCs plateau, but saving throws continue to increase. So you end up in situations where spells that require saving throws become ineffective. The only exception to this (in DDO) is Bard Fascinate since the spell DC is actually a skill check. So it will continue to scale as level increases indefinitely. This however is limited to the number of songs the bard can use.

Intimidate scales indefinitely with level as well, and has no saving throw. As long as an intimidate check meets or exceeds a mobs Intimidate DC, it is controlled. The only time that intimidate doesn't work is when the mob has a blanket immunity to intimidate. I have no idea how melee hate is coded into the game. But I have noticed that iterative attack monkeys, seem to hold solid aggro.

Synopsis: Crowd control spells are decent at the moment, but that style of play is going to fall by the wayside. They just won't be able to compete with intimidate.

[Alcides]

Why all the pally hate, i dont see people complaining about no DPS pure bards?
Lastly +4 to AC and +4 to saves for an entire quest is nothing to sneeze at.

A bard can be built to be a pretty reasonable DPSer. I've had no groups complain about my GTWF dwarven warchanter :P

[Aranticus]

FYI, there are plenty of times where intimidating trash is quite useful...

Also, the orthans in VoD normal can be intimidated consistently with a 40 intimidate...

when a player opts for intimidate, its all or none. consistently means you can still fail. as an intimidator you cannot afford to fail.

just imagine, the orthons are tearing the party apart and the clerics need a breather to use a pot, you hit intimidate, roll a 2 = fail! the party just wiped. if you had a no fail save, it will not be a last ditch attempt as you know you can grab agro anytime, anywhere

[Aranticus]

It's 5 hp and 1 sp... very easy to spam it constantly... 7d6 every 3 seconds is not bad

And don't forget Divine Might and Divine Favor... Divine Might III gives +6 damage to every hit... Divine Favor gives +3 damage..

That's +9 damage that works on everything...

The devs have done a good job evening out all the classes... Barbarians have rage, rangers have favored enemies, Paladins have the above, Fighters have the specialization feats..

And then of course, in Mod 9, everyone (except rangers) get even more DPS...

my bad on the 5 hp

yeah the +9 damage rocks but like what i said, a strength built pally is likely to be alot better at dealing damage on undead and EOs. but to what end? if you want dps, its 17 dex for twf (you could go 15 and use a tome), max dps = higher str. this means lower con and cha, so less hp or inability to get higher tier DM (every tier DM ~4str). there is alot of trade off as a pally

[Aranticus]

Tanks controlling aggro is more of a archetype in other MMOs...

We don't see tanks controlling aggro as much in DDO...

you dun? try running around with tanks having 50+ intim

Crowd Control spells are much more effective in DDO...

I would actually say, in THIS game, Crowd Control is one of the three archetypes, and tanks (using hate or intimidate) are a subset of CC.

how are you going to cc a raid boss? i can sit in the centre of dq2, turtle up, spam intim and never have her leave my side. this frees up the rest of the party to 1. nuke her, 2. kill trash, 3. never having to look back and wondering if lailat is on your ass

[Aranticus]

ok, now i understand your point. I have not looked at the cost/benifit of third tier pally pre's. As for the enhancement costs as is yeah some are to expensive and force tough decisions. For example on my 14 pally 2monk i do not cary the Rez ability for this reason.

As a side note when are Red named Orthons considered trash?

they are trash coz my 70 ac tank can intim them, kill probably 1 by myself (depending on how good the party is), allow the others to be taken down by the party without trouble and me still having my temp hitpoints

[Aranticus]

Why all the pally hate, i dont see people complaining about no DPS pure bards?
Lastly +4 to AC and +4 to saves for an entire quest is nothing to sneeze at.

i would expect a warchanter to be able to melee and survive, a spellsinger to be able to heal, etc. its the context of the build. i'm not going to expect the caster to melee (unless its a melee build). i'm not going to expect a cleric to dps (unless is a battlecleric)

a pally is a melee class, i expect it to be able to melee and dps. and to get that dps, how many pallys actually still have tier 4 AC and saves aura?

[RTN]

a pally is a melee class, i expect it to be able to melee and dps. and to get that dps, how many pallys actually still have tier 4 AC and saves aura?

It all depends on the build and role. If you're in a raiding guild, a pure pally done up right makes for a great off intimitank (like in VOD) and the auras can really help a main intimitank. My pure pally does good, but not great DPS, with buffs can hit over 70 AC easily, has a good intim and great survivability. Due to AP costs, I'm one short of the max AC aura, but with the increased level cap I'll add it.

That said, I'm not sure if I'll remain pure or not w/ the new level cap. I probably will stay pure, but going monk 2 for two feats and evasion is pretty nice. F2 would give intim, two feats and Tower Shield proficiency. Rogue 2 would give intim and evasion. (by intim, I mean as a class skill)

[baddax]

they are trash coz my 70 ac tank can intim them, kill probably 1 by myself (depending on how good the party is), allow the others to be taken down by the party without trouble and me still having my temp hitpoints


One mans Trash.....
Not everyone can achieve such lofty Stats though.
IMO trash implies it can be Stat damaged and Such, And is not a red named.

[Aranticus]

It all depends on the build and role. If you're in a raiding guild, a pure pally done up right makes for a great off intimitank (like in VOD) and the auras can really help a main intimitank. My pure pally does good, but not great DPS, with buffs can hit over 70 AC easily, has a good intim and great survivability. Due to AP costs, I'm one short of the max AC aura, but with the increased level cap I'll add it.

That said, I'm not sure if I'll remain pure or not w/ the new level cap. I probably will stay pure, but going monk 2 for two feats and evasion is pretty nice. F2 would give intim, two feats and Tower Shield proficiency. Rogue 2 would give intim and evasion. (by intim, I mean as a class skill)

which basically is what i said. max out defensive areas on the pally, you sacrifice offense. max out offense, you lower defensive abilities

[Aranticus]

One mans Trash.....
Not everyone can achieve such lofty Stats though.
IMO trash implies it can be Stat damaged and Such, And is not a red named.

next mod, everything can be stat damaged...

seriously a vod orthon isnt that hard. 50+ ac + displacement makes it very easy for anyone to go toe to toe with it. the problem is when you put 4 together and a silly group stands in the centre of all of them and get cleaved 4x