Self-resurection for $0.90

[Borror0]

From a recent Ten Ton Hammer interview (http://www.tentonhammer.com/node/70586/page/2):

During my tour, Fernando and Kate gave me approximately 3,000 Turbine points to play with, which will be somewhere between $30.00 and $45.00 depending upon the amount of points you buy at one time.
This gives us an idea of the value of the 500 Turbine points we get as VIP (between $5.00 and $7.50).

It then continues by listing the prices:


Favored Soul - 595 Turbine Points

Warforged Race – 300 Points

XP Potions - 30-90 Points (depending on the length of time they last)

Exotic Hair Dyes - 180 Points

Weapons and Armor - 20-80 Points

Siberys Spirit Cake (Rez Cake) – 90 Points

Bell of Opening (Opens Chests) – 20 Points

Moderate Health Potion – 45 Points

Adventure Packs - Varies
As Tolero described (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=2200513#post2200513) a month ago, a Siberys Spirit Cake is a a consumable that you can use to bring your party members or yourself back to life. As the Bell of Opening, the interview describes this as an item allowing you to open any chest.

This means that you can open a chest for $0.20 and self-resurrect for $0.90 if the prices don't change in between.

Discuss.

[Demoyn]

Discuss.

I see a lot of angry mothers in Turbine's customer service department's future. "But mom, it was only $.90!". "But son, you die 15 times per quest!!! Plus I already paid for your little robot AND your little karate guy!!! Now we're going to have to sell the house.".

[Varr]

$.90 is a great deal for those in my parties that stray from the holy aura of Varr.....+200% to survivabilty.....15 ft radius. Now $1.35...... I might suggest to the wanderers to wait for me to come raise them and save thier money.

[Narmolanya]

I am only going to be charging $.45 for a raise from my cleric.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

I am only going to be charging $.45 for a raise from my cleric.

/chuckles

Great idea, I'll be doing the same.

[Psyk0sisS]

Start settin up your Pay-Pal accts :p

[Cowdenicus]

Having a very unique unlootable shield graphic in game.... Priceless.

It goes well with my extremely rare scepter (unlootable) though.

[Hellllboy]

i See A Lot Of Angry Mothers In Turbine's Customer Service Department's Future. "but Mom, It Was Only $.90!". "but Son, You Die 15 Times Per Quest!!! Plus I Already Paid For Your Little Robot And Your Little Karate Guy!!! Now We're Going To Have To Sell The House.".

Rofl

[Cap_Man]

Hmm, so the rogue capstone is worth .90 cents? Actually the capstone is probably worth less (or should I say worthless) as the .90 cent Rez Cake is 100% and the capstone only gives you a diminishing chance.

If they are going to let any class of any level 'Cheat Death' better than a 20th level rogue then they should at least charge more. Or better yet ... give the rogues a capstone that is actually useful. ;)

[Do'Urden]

I am only going to be charging $.45 for a raise from my cleric.

ROFL...genius business plan ;)

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Hmm, so the rogue capstone is worth .90 cents? Actually the capstone is probably worth less (or should I say worthless) as the .90 cent Rez Cake is 100% and the capstone only gives you a diminishing chance.

If they are going to let any class of any level 'Cheat Death' better than a 20th level rogue then they should at least charge more. Or better yet ... give the rogues a capstone that is actually useful. ;)

Actually clerics already have a spell that costs um...I think 20 or 30 SP, that works 100% of the time, so they already have you beat for a penny's worth of SP.

[Kalari]

As much as my non rogue and non caster types may enjoy bells of opening I really wish they would even up the quests that require rogues before they start adding more things that will limit the necessity of having one. Im enlightened enough to know what Rogues bring to the table but many arent and being able to open your own chest for real money.. groan

[chester99]

turbine has decided to remove the game from their game and replace it with an interactive purchasing experience. remember when you were a kid and your mom made you hold her purse while she was shopping?

well now you can experience it in game. I mean in intractive purchasing experience.

[Aerendil]

My 2cp:

Self-rez may be pointless if that big angry minotaur stands over your corpse. It's just a means of possibly avoiding the -20% xp hit if you're soloing and need to release, which is nice. Or it's nice for the low level cleric (or favored soul) to be able to self-rez and possibly save a party that has wiped.

As for the open locks bell, if this is a 1-time use item per chest, I don't see it as too overpowering. The Rogue skill was already pretty weak and easy to maintain with a mere 1 splash level into Rogue.
Nice for a party, though, if you can't find someone with the OL skill. Being able to open a chest for your entire party for a mere 20 cents isn't a bad deal at all. Especially if everyone in your group brings a bell, that's several locked chests per quest you suddenly have access to.

I do fear that it may make Rogues even more obsolete now though :/
People already run through traps quite often. Now they don't even need the rogue to open chests. Poor Rogues :(

In short, I'd give it an overpowered rating of 2/5. Regular groups shouldn't need these items too regularly.
It's mostly for the soloers or very small groups that will want access to these, I think.

[Leyoni]

I certainly think the rogue capstone is worthless. I doubt seriously that any rogue build will remain pure. Most common splash will be either monk or fighter to grab a couple extra feats.

I see the rez cake as a party wipes situation. Obviously not a smart thing to use when there is a player character with rez capability thru spell or clicky. Also has some utility if soloing.

I think the bell will be useful for putting rogues out of work when it comes to OL. There are only a few places where OL is really desired to get into warded chests. This now seems a way to avoid needing rogue skills for that.

One question I would have is availability. Are these always available, only available to certain levels, or something that is available sometimes but not others (like stock on a shelf -- sometimes sold out)?

[Kerrn_Siff]

My 2cp:

Self-rez may be pointless if that big angry minotaur stands over your corpse. It's just a means of possibly avoiding the -20% xp hit if you're soloing and need to release, which is nice. Or it's nice for the low level cleric (or favored soul) to be able to self-rez and possibly save a party that has wiped.


Not a shot at you Aerendil by any means since I agree this as how it will certainly be utilized. But, isn't this pretty much just cheating? If not in name (since Turbine is allowing it obviously) but in spirit?

No pun intended :)

[Aerendil]

Not a shot at you Aerendil by any means since I agree this as how it will certainly be utilized. But, isn't this pretty much just cheating? If not in name (since Turbine is allowing it obviously) but in spirit?

No pun intended :)

Yep, I agree it cheapens the game to an extent, but I don't see it as any different to farming the bejeezus out of silver and gold Festivus coins to stock up on similarly powerful items.

I'd say greensteel, 80+AC, WoP, and various other things in game have cheapened DDO more than a rez cookie ever will :)

[kingfisher]

i dont see the win cakes on the list, you know the ones you eat at lvl 1 and you turn into a capped, fully raid-gear equipped, tomed-out ubertard. thats where the real money is turbine. you dont even want people playing the game, just spending!

[Borror0]

Self-rez may be pointless if that big angry minotaur stands over your corpse.
Unless you can't move away from your soul stone, you could simply move away and resurrect from there.

[Aerendil]

^^ Yeah, it all depends how it's implemented I guess.

Maybe now would be a good time for Turbine to implement a special rules server?
No access to Turbine points or the store; old-school permanent 1 CON damage every time you die; etc, etc.

[Kerrn_Siff]

^^ Yeah, it all depends how it's implemented I guess.

Maybe now would be a good time for Turbine to implement a special rules server?
No access to Turbine points or the store; old-school permanent 1 CON damage every time you die; etc, etc.

Or at least you lose XP or something if these shortcuts are used. I certainly won't be impressed any more with people short manning/soloing stuff if there is no way to verify they did it cleanly.

[Vallin]

Not much to discuss, imo.

If you want to use it, then buy it.

If not, then don't buy it.

If it upsets anyone's sensibilities, form a static group of like-minded people who play by whatever rules you all want to use.

Vallin

[Pyromaniac]

I am only going to be charging $.45 for a raise from my cleric.

Exactly what I was thinking - now we need a system where you gain 'money/points' through contributing to the party and lose 'money/points' when you need heals/raises etc.

I see there as being plenty of opportunity, there could be price tags on using a shrine, entering a quest, a price to go afk and keep your spot on the server etc etc. I'm still surprised there's no in-game advertising, auctions to have lunch with specific Turbine employees, income taxes on player earnings, sales tax at the vendors etc.

There's lots of creative ways to get more money here...

[spifflove]

I have a feeling I'm going to be pulling alot of lumps of coal this festival.

[transtemporal]

I can see self-rez might be useful for people who want to solo a lot, or if you do something boneheaded and rez yourself out of embarassment before anyone notices.

But I would've thought that in most situations where its useful to rez, you'll be rezzed by a cleric. If the situation has deteriorated far enough that you have to rez yourself, its probably time to call it anyway.

I can see some comedy pug shrouds coming though. Hysterical leaders saying things in pt2 like "OK team, we can still beat these guys - everyone self-rez!". I know what my answer will be. :)

[Jondallar]

i wish they would make the rez shrines inopperable in new content traids until thre is at least one completion on each server... it appears as if DDO is entering into our steriods era like major league baseball has gone through. Every victory will have an asterix which is sad :(

[IHateYou]

Maybe now would be a good time for Turbine to implement a special rules server?
No access to Turbine points or the store; old-school permanent 1 CON damage every time you die; etc, etc.

How much TP would it take to move my characters there? just a thought...

[Draccus]

I certainly think the rogue capstone is worthless. I doubt seriously that any rogue build will remain pure. Most common splash will be either monk or fighter to grab a couple extra feats.


Oh, I'm sure some idiots will go rogue 20 regardless of the capstone. ;)

[Roman]

I missed the memo, what does the Moderate Health Potion – 45 Points do?

[Mudcnd]

My 2c is just this if they do implement this please please at the end of the quest turbine could you list who used how many self rez's in the "kills" sheet, I think it would be important info to have when someone posts , some "I soloed _____ quest/ raid on leet!

And while your at it , could ya also list , what consumables where used by who, it might have a good effect on peoples play styles.

[Kerrn_Siff]

My 2c is just this if they do implement this please please at the end of the quest turbine could you list who used how many self rez's in the "kills" sheet, I think it would be important info to have when someone posts , some "I soloed _____ quest/ raid on leet!

And while your at it , could ya also list , what consumables where used by who, it might have a good effect on peoples play styles.

exactly. It matters to a lot of us.

[Vallin]

My 2c is just this if they do implement this please please at the end of the quest turbine could you list who used how many self rez's in the "kills" sheet, I think it would be important info to have when someone posts , some "I soloed _____ quest/ raid on leet!

And while your at it , could ya also list , what consumables where used by who, it might have a good effect on peoples play styles.


YEAH! It is too much to ask us to ignore people who post how uber leet sauce they are, so I want to see the devs calculate a "Noob Factor" and an "Uber Factor" next to each name in any quest. That way we can all know who is really the most noob and who is the most uber. Then please put the information on a Marquee posting on the DDO website so all of our friends can see how great we are and also so we can see how badly other people suck. If you ever use the DDO store I think you should qualify for 2 months of an Uber Noob listing.

This is all vital information. WE MUST HAVE IT!

It also really matters to me and it is my business to know how much money someone else spends on their entertainment, so I think that instead of guild names you should have a dollar amount of how much money they charged on their mom's credit card!

/sarcasm off

[Dark_Helmet]

^^ Yeah, it all depends how it's implemented I guess.

Maybe now would be a good time for Turbine to implement a special rules server?
No access to Turbine points or the store; old-school permanent 1 CON damage every time you die; etc, etc.

Wow, that makes me think of another money maker: Each time you die, you lose a point of CON. You can buy it back for $5 per point.. Wow, the Turbine bean counters will love that one. So next, they need to ban Permadeath guilds: They will be preventing Turbine from earning money. :rolleyes: (sorry Parvo! :o)

I remember the old days of D&D where your primary goal was entertainment (lots of hours working those conventions but the enjoyment on the kids faces was worth it) and get by on what you make (wasn't trying to wring the last penny out of anyone).

DDO was a flat rate that provided a level area for all dependant on the time invensted (no rich people buying their way up - unless they did something against the EULA).

Now, the bean counters just want to screw kids out of their lunch money - a nickel and dime at a time (Timmy's mom bought him +5 full plate cause she loves him, I hate you mommy!).

..the rich get richer... and the poor get screwed.

[Vallin]

Wow, that makes me think of another money maker: Each time you die, you lose a point of CON. You can buy it back for $5 per point.. Wow, the Turbine bean counters will love that one. So next, they need to ban Permadeath guilds: They will be preventing Turbine from earning money. :rolleyes: (sorry Parvo! :o)

I remember the old days of D&D where your primary goal was entertainment (lots of hours working those conventions but the enjoyment on the kids faces was worth it) and get by on what you make (wasn't trying to wring the last penny out of anyone).

DDO was a flat rate that provided a level area for all dependant on the time invensted (no rich people buying their way up - unless they did something against the EULA).

Now, the bean counters just want to screw kids out of their lunch money - a nickel and dime at a time (Timmy's mom bought him +5 full plate cause she loves him, I hate you mommy!).

..the rich get richer... and the poor get screwed.

Hey Dark, seriously - you have some radical new information that the rest of us don't have? Last I knew it wasn't going to be possible to 'buy your way up' or to purchase loot items.

Or are you just making things up?

There is a big difference between buying a convenience or cosmetic item or a minor gameplay enhancement as opposed to 'buying your way to the top.' I just want to know where specifically you are getting these ideas. I would like to have this information.

Vallin.

[Oeuf]

Why does the DDO store make me think of Exploits are Us????

Could have sworn Turbine banned people for life for engaging in exploits
but know it's OK just as long as you pay the Capo for the privelidge.

Get ready for the influx of WoWtards after we go live with FTP.

:cool:

[bandyman1]

There is a big difference between buying a convenience or cosmetic item or a minor gameplay enhancement as opposed to 'buying your way to the top.'

Vallin.

Last I checked, unlimited mana, health, and the ability to rezz at will while everyone in the dungeon is dead, is a lot more than a convenience or cosmetic item, or a minor gameplay enhancement.

Instead of developing the skill to master particular sections of the game, those with enough cash and the will to spend it, can simply throw money at the problem until they succeed.

[Dark_Helmet]

Last I checked, unlimited mana, health, and the ability to rezz at will while everyone in the dungeon is dead, is a lot more than a convenience or cosmetic item, or a minor gameplay enhancement.

Instead of developing the skill to master particular sections of the game, those with enough cash and the will to spend it, can simply throw money at the problem until they succeed.

Yep, that would be enough for me to say you can "buy your way up", but he would have to read the Beta forums to get the full story.

[Uska]

Oh, I'm sure some idiots will go rogue 20 regardless of the capstone. ;)

No some of us wanna go pure because we arent powergaming minmaxers all of the time, yes one of my rogues will be pure and no the capstone isnt attractive to that at all I just want her to be a pure rogue.

[irivan]

Last I checked, unlimited mana, health, and the ability to rezz at will while everyone in the dungeon is dead, is a lot more than a convenience or cosmetic item, or a minor gameplay enhancement.

Instead of developing the skill to master particular sections of the game, those with enough cash and the will to spend it, can simply throw money at the problem until they succeed.

Hey grandmaster who knows everything, what makes you think people will throw money at the problem? You have some special insight into peoples spending habits? And why do you care what they do with thier cash? I think you are afraid that your status will some how shrink, and you will be in less of an exclusive club, which tells me you really arent a very good player, the folks buying thier way through the game will suck at it and no amount of money will matter....

I can't wait till this launches so i can come back and re post your non sense for every one to read!!!

Oh and last time i checked this was the definition for convenience

Main Entry: 1con·ve·nience
Pronunciation: \kən-ˈvēn-yən(t)s\
Function: noun
Date: 14th century
1: fitness or suitability for performing an action or fulfilling a requirement
2 a: something (as an appliance, device, or service) conducive to comfort or ease bchiefly British : toilet 3
3: a suitable or convenient time <at your convenience>
4: freedom from discomfort : ease


As far as i can tell, this would definitely qualify as a convenience....however if you want to argue with the dictionary, go ahead and load up this website and you can yell at your screen all night for all i care....

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/convenience

[Kylani]

I just have trouble thinking many will just plop out cash hand over fist for these items. They aren't needed, they are a convenience. If people get used to using these routinely, I'd think their bank/CC statements at the end of the month would shock them.

I can't even see the richest of people willing to pay a fortune as some are suggesting. I see them as occasional conveniences vs let's buy out the store and go complete a quest, but that's just me.

[Borror0]

As far as i can tell, this would definitely qualify as a convenience
That's not how Fernando defines convenience (http://www.crispygamer.com/news/index.php/2009-06-15/going-free-to-play-the-dd-online-unlimited-qa/):


Another one is convenience items.. things that might just change the way you play - like move a little faster (not in a game breaking way), or loot potions or experience potions that give you a small boost in the rewards you are getting in the game. Or things that let you travel faster through the world to get somewhere.
Fernando's definition implies that it must not be game breaking.

[Kylani]

That's not how Fernando defines convenience (http://www.crispygamer.com/news/index.php/2009-06-15/going-free-to-play-the-dd-online-unlimited-qa/):


Fernando's definition implies that it must not be game breaking.

I don't want to get into a game breaking discussion because I don't feel qualified to comment given I just play for fun. However it seems that given Fernando says they must not be game breaking, I don't think they'd put it in the store unless they don't feel it is.

I understand you may feel it is (and it may be), but you thinking it is (or me thinking it is if I thought it was) doesn't make it so.

As far as rezzing is concerned, I leave a quest and go back if we wipe now. I do see using a rez cake as convenience of doing what I do now faster. Does it mean I'll use them every time I die? Heck no, I have to pay for them and that money will add up.

If money weren't involved, then I probably would to save me time and exp. I do think using a rez cake should have the same penalty as leaving the quest and coming back, just as I think teleport rods should only allow you to teleport to a place you've visited, but it doesn't bother me if these restraints aren't added. They don't hurt anything, but I do feel like a conveniences should have some tradeoff for it taking less time.

[Borror0]

I understand you may feel it is (and it may be), but you thinking it is (or me thinking it is if I thought it was) doesn't make it so.
How does something become objectively game breaking?

It's subjective. Me thinking that it is game breaking make it game breaking for me just like you thinking it is not makes it non-game breaking for you. It affects my reality and therefore it is a problem for me. The next step is to persuade Turbine to agree with me.

[Vallin]

Last I checked, unlimited mana, health, and the ability to rezz at will while everyone in the dungeon is dead, is a lot more than a convenience or cosmetic item, or a minor gameplay enhancement.

Instead of developing the skill to master particular sections of the game, those with enough cash and the will to spend it, can simply throw money at the problem until they succeed.


And if they do - that impacts you in what way? Why do you care?

We have mana pots now, and the ability to 'hold an instance' now, and the ability to leave an instance and return before it resets now - so what is the difference, other than convenience?

Some people don't like using those items or mechanisms now because it offends their sensibilities. That is fine. I frequently hear players state that 'they aren't going to use more mana pots' or 'they aren't going to use more scrolls' now - and I have no expectation that people's frugality with their resources will change much. There will be times when people are willing to use their resources and they will. There will be times when they don't. The addition of a store will not cause the populace to suddenly go hog wild with expending every possible resource. If you think that people part with their money on such a willy-nilly basis 'just because they can' then you don't understand consumer behavior.

People will spend resources if it includes a value proposition. There is nothing fundamentally changing in the value proposition with this game - and so it boils down to convenience - which does not break the game in my opinion - it only adds to the entertainment value.

And if it breaks the game for you - Turbine is kind enough to allow you to play without using the store - because it isn't crammed down your throat. All you need to do is avoid pushing the little button that offends you. Or form your own group of like-minded people - just like Perma-death, which is a wonderful community of gamers.

Live and let live. I have never heard of anyone state "Perma-death people are breaking the game because they aren't playing the exact same way that I want to play!" I have also never heard Perma-death people mock the larger DDO populace because they allow ressurections and they aren't 'pure D&Ders.'

People are 'willing' to let you play the game by not using the store. Why do you want to cram your sensibility down everyone else's throat?

Vallin

[Kylani]

How does something become objectively game breaking?

It's subjective. Me thinking that it is game breaking make it game breaking for me just like you thinking it is not makes it non-game breaking for you. It affects my reality and therefore it is a problem for me. The next step is to persuade Turbine to agree with me.

I understand subjective. In your post, you said Fernando said these weren't convenience items, and imo, his statement and them being in the store implied just the opposite, that Fernando doesn't think they are game breaking or he wouldn't have allowed them in the store.

I have no problem with you or anyone voicing their opinions and trying to bring home things to consider for the betterment of the game. It's beta, discussion is good even if all sides will never agree. I just did not see Fernando's statement saying these were not convenience items.

[Vallin]

Why does the DDO store make me think of Exploits are Us????




Answer: Because people come on the forums and post hyperbolic misinformation.

If you read the drivel long enough it can impact you. I suggest a Mantle of Invulnerability from Doomsters Who Want to Dictate How You Enjoy the Game.

It's a great spell - works for me.

Vallin

[Kylani]

Answer: Because people come on the forums and post hyperbolic misinformation.

If you read the drivel long enough it can impact you. I suggest a Mantle of Invulnerability from Doomsters Who Want to Dictate How You Enjoy the Game.

It's a great spell - works for me.

Vallin

Lol! Thanks for making me smile.

I couldn't agree more with your previous post as well.

[Borror0]

I understand subjective. In your post, you said Fernando said these weren't convenience items, and imo, his statement and them being in the store implied just the opposite, that Fernando doesn't think they are game breaking or he wouldn't have allowed them in the store.
That's quite clear but I disagree.

I just did not see Fernando's statement saying these were not convenience items.
That's true but he did state the standards for an item to be a convenience item that were more selective than irrivan's. That was the point of the post you replied to.

[Borror0]

Answer: Because people come on the forums and post hyperbolic misinformation.
Example?

[cm2_supernova]

Example?

well...without actually doing any legwork, Im sure we can all remember reading a posts on the boards claiming something to the extent of:

"OMFG, you nerfed WOPs?? Now my Dex based Ranger\Rogue\Monk is totally worthless!! What's next, remove evasion because that is OP too??"

or the many many slippery slope arguments Ive read about respecing inevitably leading to everyone playing the same 5 cookie cutter builds.

Doesnt happen all the time, but people in the game seem to have a difficult time accepting change. Everytime the boat gets rocked even a little bit "the sky is falling" cries come out and every time the game ends up okay in the end.

[Pyromaniac]

Instead of developing the skill to master particular sections of the game, those with enough cash and the will to spend it, can simply throw money at the problem until they succeed.

Absolutely true, and that is the point of the change. I think its time to revive the PVP ranking board and make it the "Biggest eStore Spenders of the Month". Maybe special forum titles denoting your overall level of spending?

Skill and DDO are two words that will not belong together with mod 9 and beyond.

[Borror0]

well...without actually doing any legwork, Im sure we can all remember reading a posts on the boards claiming something to the extent of:

"OMFG, you nerfed WOPs?? Now my Dex based Ranger\Rogue\Monk is totally worthless!! What's next, remove evasion because that is OP too??"
I was more interested in an example relating to the topic.

[Vallin]

Example?

Come on Borror - you are on these forums heavily - you know there is a lot of Doom!!1! out there.

In this specific thread I have seen people stating that Turbine is trying to nickel and dime children out of their lunch money, and that people are going to buy 'game-breaking' loot at the store.

These are examples of hyperbolic misinformation.

[Borror0]

In this specific thread I have seen people stating that Turbine is trying to nickel and dime children out of their lunch money, and that people are going to buy 'game-breaking' loot at the store.

These are examples of hyperbolic misinformation.
How so? Which part of it is hyperbolic?

[Pyromaniac]

well...without actually doing any legwork, Im sure we can all remember reading a posts on the boards claiming something to the extent of:

"OMFG, you nerfed WOPs?? Now my Dex based Ranger\Rogue\Monk is totally worthless!! What's next, remove evasion because that is OP too??"

or the many many slippery slope arguments Ive read about respecing inevitably leading to everyone playing the same 5 cookie cutter builds.

Doesnt happen all the time, but people in the game seem to have a difficult time accepting change. Everytime the boat gets rocked even a little bit "the sky is falling" cries come out and every time the game ends up okay in the end.

Well the WOP nerf hasn't come out yet, but the AC nerf is coming now (Grazing Blows) to hammer the Dex based Ranger/Rogue/Monks - so why not an evasion nerf after that? That wouldn't be unexpected really.

The game isn't trending ok, or we wouldn't be the testbed for 'free to play'/'microtransactions' and not getting a mod for a year or more. So maybe the nerfs are helping drive long time players away, or maybe not.

[VKhaun]

The word I don't see enough in this thread is 'raid'. It was said that the store would be off-limits in raids so our top end gameplay sessions would still be genuine and people couldn't buy their way through, but these cakes are an item...

[cm2_supernova]

Skill and DDO are two words that will not belong together with mod 9 and beyond.

Ahhhhh...thank you for proving my point.

The real inside scoop is that we have no idea to really know how the microtranasctions are going to affect game play...but I honesetly dont understand why every change is automatically a catastrophy.

Even if you read Kates interview she says that hard and elite difficulties might scale more in the future...people in that thread are upset because the game will be too dificult without items from the DDO Store...but here the game will be too easy and skill will no longer be required.

Why cant we just wait and see how it turns out, if its good then cheer...if there is room for improvement we can discuss it then.

[Pyromaniac]

Why cant we just wait and see how it turns out, if its good then cheer...if there is room for improvement we can discuss it then.

Because Kate and Fernando have done so well with the direction of DDO. They've eroded the player base to the point that DDO has to be given away for free to get people to play.

Not that I think they care or will listen, but its something to do when there's nothing to do in-game and you're paying them for not much.

According to Kate, mod 9 was going to be here January 1st 2009 as well - so her comments don't give me any sense of confidence either given apparently the plan for F2P was in place well before that. Some mixed messages/potential untruths to the player base leading to minimal to no credibility.

[cm2_supernova]

Well the WOP nerf hasn't come out yet, but the AC nerf is coming now (Grazing Blows) to hammer the Dex based Ranger/Rogue/Monks - so why not an evasion nerf after that? That wouldn't be unexpected really.


I see no logical reason to assume that an evasion nerf is coming...simply because other fighting styles are getting a boost doesnt mean that anything is going to be taken away from evasion builds.

In fact, I believe its been said before by developers that it is preferable to fix an imbalance by boosting a class\style\etc than nerfing the overpowered one. I know the WOP things is primarially a TWF deal, but really the only thing that changes with the WOP nerf is that the WOPers wont be the ones getting the kills. An incap monster is only slightly better than a dead monster IMO



Because Kate and Fernando have done so well with the direction of DDO. They've eroded the player base to the point that DDO has to be given away for free to get people to play.

Not that I think they care or will listen, but its something to do when there's nothing to do in-game and you're paying them for not much.

People are leaving because there has been no new content...the gameplay hasnt changed at all really since Mod 6

[Vallin]

How so? Which part of it is hyperbolic?

Although I expect that Turbine wishes to generate revenue, and I do not begrudge them that since they are providing a service - I don't expect that there are greedy people sitting around a table who are trying to plan ways for children to send their lunch money to them.

To state that they are is an example of hyperbole.

The definition of 'game breaking' is apparently subjective - so we don't need to get into that - but it is also hyperbole to state that people will be able to buy items like powerful armor or weaponry - which is also often repeated even though it is false. To state that powerful armor or weaponry is available for purchase is also hyperbole, from what I am currently aware of.

Vallin

[Pyromaniac]

People are leaving because there has been no new content...not because the gameplay has changed at all really since Mod 6

That is your opinion - maybe its valid maybe its not.

Are Kate/Fernando not in charge of the direction of DDO, including where the development resource time is spent? Haven't they also been spending resource on free to play and nerfs and not new content?

[Pyromaniac]

I don't expect that there are greedy people sitting around a table who are trying to plan ways for children to send their lunch money to them.

You never know, why would they care where the E-Store money comes from? This game would be rated 18 and up if they didn't want money from kids.

[VKhaun]

Ahhhhh...thank you for proving my point.

The real inside scoop is that we have no idea to really know how the microtranasctions are going to affect game play...but I honesetly dont understand why every change is automatically a catastrophy.

Even if you read Kates interview she says that hard and elite difficulties might scale more in the future...people in that thread are upset because the game will be too dificult without items from the DDO Store...but here the game will be too easy and skill will no longer be required.

Why cant we just wait and see how it turns out, if its good then cheer...if there is room for improvement we can discuss it then.

Because some of us have seen these changes in other games. Buying heals and power regen through an item mall turns any game into easy mode. That's why we have finite resources to begin with. Giving all players self-rez turns any game into easy mode. That's why we can die in the first place. No argument against it has gotten past one use of an item and into spam territory. Mino over your corpse? Use it, run, die, use it again, run, die, use another one, making distance each time until you're safe. Under three bucks, the guy at the PC says to himself that he won't supersize his combo meal for the next three trips through Wendy's.

What do we get a month as a VIP, 500? That's five rez and change, I don't know about how you play, but I didn't die without a cleric to rez or a shrine open, more then five times a month playing an 8con caster. By design this only serves to make an otherwise impossible recovery which many players feel take risk out of the game, and may even make people fat eating Wendy's burgers.

This country has an obesity epidemic, supernova.
Don't you even CARE!?!?

[Pyromaniac]

Whatever happens will happen - the master plan for DDO will not change because some current players don't like it.

[cm2_supernova]

That is your opinion - maybe its valid maybe its not.

Are Kate/Fernando not in charge of the direction of DDO, including where the development resource time is spent? Haven't they also been spending resource on free to play and nerfs and not new content?

Fair enough...Im just trying to stay positive about all the changes and everything that is coming. Personally I feel its a pretty solid marketing plan...hook new players by having it free, give the F2P players just enough to enjoy the game, but not as much as the paid subscribers leaving them wanting more. FTP players use microtrans or uprgrade to premium to compete in the game.

If the game gets comparativley easier then I dont think that is necissarily a bad thing either. Nobody runs VoD, Hound or Shroud on elite because it is just to **** hard, but if there were a greater number of manna regens\self raises\etc maybe we would be running these quests on elite right now instead of normal...doesnt exactly seem game breakin to me, but you said it best...my opinion, maybe valid maybe not




This country has an obesity epidemic, supernova.
Don't you even CARE!?!?

That was frikkin awesome...rep to you sir...rep to you :D

[Vallin]

You never know, why would they care where the E-Store money comes from? This game would be rated 18 and up if they didn't want money from kids.


You know, as seriously as I try to consider the things that people say, can you imagine an elementary school aged child taping 50 cents to an index card and mailing it to Turbine so they can buy something from the store.

'Taking children's lunch money' is just hyperbole - people need to develop real arguments and stop relying on this kind of lameness.

Vallin

[Kylani]

Because some of us have seen these changes in other games. Buying heals and power regen through an item mall turns any game into easy mode. That's why we have finite resources to begin with. Giving all players self-rez turns any game into easy mode. That's why we can die in the first place. No argument against it has gotten past one use of an item and into spam territory. Mino over your corpse? Use it, run, die, use it again, run, die, use another one, making distance each time until you're safe. Under three bucks, the guy at the PC says to himself that he won't supersize his combo meal for the next three trips through Wendy's.

What do we get a month as a VIP, 500? That's five rez and change, I don't know about how you play, but I didn't die without a cleric to rez or a shrine open, more then five times a month playing an 8con caster. By design this only serves to make an otherwise impossible recovery which many players feel take risk out of the game, and may even make people fat eating Wendy's burgers.

This country has an obesity epidemic, supernova.
Don't you even CARE!?!?

LMAO! Thanks.

[VKhaun]

It's always nice to get back from Wendy's and see you've earned rep.
I ran out of fries on the drive home though, didn't super size, saving up for rez cakes.
****, you know what? Now I want some cake... this game is killing me. T_T

[cm2_supernova]

It's always nice to get back from Wendy's and see you've earned rep.
I ran out of fries on the drive home though, didn't super size, saving up for rez cakes.
****, you know what? Now I want some cake... this game is killing me. T_T

you can always play it while riding an exersise bike

...see, I do care afterall

[Borror0]

'Taking children's lunch money' is just hyperbole - people need to develop real arguments and stop relying on this kind of lameness.
It's slightly hyperbolic but it's sound logic nonetheless.

The definition of 'game breaking' is apparently subjective - so we don't need to get into that - but it is also hyperbole to state that people will be able to buy items like powerful armor or weaponry - which is also often repeated even though it is false. To state that powerful armor or weaponry is available for purchase is also hyperbole, from what I am currently aware of.
Oh, so your post was a straw man. Sorry, I took it seriously. :p

[Vallin]

It's slightly hyperbolic but it's sound logic nonetheless.

Oh, so your post was a straw man. Sorry, I took it seriously. :p

Actually Borror, no straw man was created. You asked for in-thread specific examples - and I provided them. Seems like you just have no response.

Have a nice day.

Vallin

[Borror0]

Actually Borror, no straw man was created. You asked for in-thread specific examples - and I provided them. Seems like you just have no response.
Do you remember the statement that started the argument?

Let me quote it for you:



Why does the DDO store make me think of Exploits are Us????:Answer: Because people come on the forums and post hyperbolic misinformation.
Unless you beleive that game breaking is "hyperbolic misinformation" (which I would obviously disagree with), your statement is a straw man as it incorrectly suggest that the only way to disagree is to found this impression on false information.

[Vallin]

Do you remember the statement that started the argument?

Let me quote it for you:


Unless you beleive that game breaking is "hyperbolic misinformation" (which I would obviously disagree with), your statement is a straw man as it incorrectly suggest that the only way to disagree is to found this impression on false information.

Well the problem obviously is that your definition of game breaking includes what most others would likely define as hyperbole - and examples were provided which you summarily reject.

That leaves you living in your own private Idaho, so to speak. You can hold your position by defining your terms and arguments the way that make sense to support your own individual construction of reality.

Facts are that most people who interact with others take into consideration commonly held contextual understanding. That is why there is a 'reality' - which is really just any group of people who are choosing to collectively interpret sense-data in common ways that suit social/communicative (or other purpose).

Anything that you disagree with then, and in accordance with your own personal and privately held definitions and interpretations (that only you hold), is a straw man.

Well that's like saying I don't accept anything you say, so everything that I disagree with is a straw man. Cute trick to avoid real conversation - but the reality that we live in a world of social pragmatics and collective interpretation of commonly held sense-data kind of throws your approach down the drain.

Bottom line - distraction into philosophical silliness about arguments doesn't fly. People come on these forums and spout **** all the time. Some of them even have a lot of this theoretical rep. Very odd.

Vallin

[Kalari]

You know I personally dont care if this is an easy button. I dont care if party members make the game easier for them or to hide their noobness by constantly buying easy mana pots, or rez shrines. I dont even care if people will run around looking like the troll dolls from the 90's with fuchsia hair and the like.


I can waste time getting upset on things I think may happen when mod 9/EU is finally released or I can wait and see if im not going to like the changes coming. Id rather not be closed minded and know for sure if im gonna completely hate something.

I think one thing many of us can agree on is were tired of waiting. All these previews, teasers, contests and other smoke and mirrors cannot hide the fact that many of us have level 16's sitting around for a very long time. Some of them our favorite characters to play and can do nothing but grind out ingredients from the shroud or Refuge and hope that soon we will get the feel of what it means to level again. In the past few months ive leveled a few lowbies again all who are sitting capped again. Ive got others but im just not feeling running the same dungeons over and over. I dunno about you but id like to see something new soon. Its not a demand just a request from a player who has a character near if not at the Favored Soul requirment, who has run with the dungeon crawlers who take it slow. To the Zerging "know your role" groups. Who has run 3bc before and after its facelift. Who like others remembers the newbie island (with seperate tutorials for classes that you could go into anyway), goodblades, surviving the lowroads with the option not to kill. And I came after those who have been here since the beginning and still play and I wonder how they are managing to hold on. Many have left and its sad :(.

So argue and debate what you like about EU and its buying power, I just want to see the darn thing released already.

[Kylani]

Well the problem obviously is that your definition of game breaking includes what most others would likely define as hyperbole - and examples were provided which you summarily reject.

That leaves you living in your own private Idaho, so to speak. You can hold your position by defining your terms and arguments the way that make sense to support your own individual construction of reality.

Facts are that most people who interact with others take into consideration commonly held contextual understanding. That is why there is a 'reality' - which is really just any group of people who are choosing to collectively interpret sense-data in common ways that suit social/communicative (or other purpose).

Anything that you disagree with then, and in accordance with your own personal and privately held definitions and interpretations (that only you hold), is a straw man.

Well that's like saying I don't accept anything you say, so everything that I disagree with is a straw man. Cute trick to avoid real conversation - but the reality that we live in a world of social pragmatics and collective interpretation of commonly held sense-data kind of throws your approach down the drain.

Bottom line - distraction into philosophical silliness about arguments doesn't fly. People come on these forums and spout **** all the time. Some of them even have a lot of this theoretical rep. Very odd.

Vallin

Beautiful post. I've been here before, and just decided to try to think about the actual issue and ignore posts that use this avoidance technique. Sometimes, I forget though, then I think why did I bang my head against that wall again, lol.

[Dark_Helmet]

Hey grandmaster who knows everything, what makes you think people will throw money at the problem? You have some special insight into peoples spending habits? And why do you care what they do with thier cash? I thikn you are afraid that your status will some how shrink, and you will be in less of an exclusive club, which tells me you really arent a very good player, the folks buying thier way through the game will suck at it and no amount of money will matter....

I can't wait till this launches so i can come back and re post your non sense for every one to read!!!

Oh and last time i checked this was the definition for convenience

Main Entry: 1con·ve·nience
Pronunciation: \kən-ˈvēn-yən(t)s\
Function: noun
Date: 14th century
1: fitness or suitability for performing an action or fulfilling a requirement
2 a: something (as an appliance, device, or service) conducive to comfort or ease bchiefly British : toilet 3
3: a suitable or convenient time <at your convenience>
4: freedom from discomfort : ease


As far as i can tell, this would definitely qualify as a convenience....however if you want to argue with the dictionary, go ahead and load up this website and you can yell at your screen all night for all i care....

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/convenience

My turn in the tag team:

In the Mid 80s, we used to PBM (Play by Mail) several games. The games that had a flat fee for turns were more even, allowing all players an equal footing (as long as you took the time each month to submit your turns). Those who didn't contribute fell behind, but that was because they chose not to put in the effort didn't get advancement.

The PBMs that started allowing optional things to be done for a fee (usually a special op where a game master reviewed and provide bonuses) became a nightmare as people would pay over $100 per month to get an advantage. Once your army/fleet ran into one of these playerss, you were toast. They were so far ahead, it wasn't fair. When other players - who weren't even affected by those people - learned how people were buying themselves way above others, they quit. The motivation to play was gone.

The cases above are why I don't accept how people who don't put forth the time should be able to "buy" their way to an even keel. It sacrifices the part of your audience who have put forth time and effort to earn their equipment.

That is the basis I have for the slippery slope: When someone can buy an advantage ( such as "unlimited" mana, pot to get bonus loot), it upsets the game balance and some of the player base.


Please take your personal attacks somewhere else.

[Dark_Helmet]

Come on Borror - you are on these forums heavily - you know there is a lot of Doom!!1! out there.

In this specific thread I have seen people stating that Turbine is trying to nickel and dime children out of their lunch money, and that people are going to buy 'game-breaking' loot at the store.

These are examples of hyperbolic misinformation.

While Turbine may not be intentionally marketting for "their lunch money", it happens in the industry.

My slippery slope case point here: The cigarette/alcohol industries being found to market to minors.
Illegal to sell to minor, but they were found to be marketing to them. They knew that grabbing the market now meant a longer, sustained input than the older people. They didn't care about the impact of underage smoking / drinking, they just wanted "their lunch money" (I am remiss that I can't find which Congressman I am quoting with that statement).


Yes, an extreme example, but it is fact that I am basing my opinion - not your opinion that we are all just whiners making stuff up.

[DragoonPenguin]

I see a lot of angry mothers in Turbine's customer service department's future. "But mom, it was only $.90!". "But son, you die 15 times per quest!!! Plus I already paid for your little robot AND your little karate guy!!! Now we're going to have to sell the house.".

really, best post to wake up to ever. rofl

[Borror0]

Well the problem obviously is that your definition of game breaking includes what most others would likely define as hyperbole
Tagging our definition of game breaking of hyperbolic is, to put it simply, merely rhetorical, dismissive and fallacious if you don't at least take the time to prove why it's hyperbolic, which you have not done thus far to the best of my knowledge.

[Girevik]

My turn in the tag team:
The cases above are why I don't accept how people who don't put forth the time should be able to "buy" their way to an even keel. It sacrifices the part of your audience who have put forth time and effort to earn their equipment.

That is the basis I have for the slippery slope: When someone can buy an advantage ( such as "unlimited" mana, pot to get bonus loot), it upsets the game balance and some of the player base.

I don't think your comparison fits very well. In your comparison you had no way to be even with your competitor without also resorting to purchasing additional benefits.

There are many differences with the DDO model:
(1) For the most part, it is not a competition, this is a PvE game, not a PvP game.
(2) As a non-payer, you were limitted to a set number of opportunities to advance, one turn per week, etc. In DDO, "non-payers" can have vastly different advancement rates, one player can play six hours a day and another can play six hours a week.

How is the game hurt more by a player who plays for six hours a week using "double experience potions" (hypothetical item) than one who plays for four hours a day, six days a week, but refuses to ever purchase anything from the store?

[Vallin]

Now, the bean counters just want to screw kids out of their lunch money - a nickel and dime at a time (Timmy's mom bought him +5 full plate cause she loves him, I hate you mommy!).

..the rich get richer... and the poor get screwed.


No matter what way you slice it - your comments are not facts. They are misinformation and they are hyperbole.

I'm really interested in following a logical conversation here, but I am just getting lost on your point of comparisons to the marketing strategies of tobacco companies.

Whatever - the significant counterpoints in the thread included:

1. Why do other people believe that it is their business to restrict how different people choose to play the game/obtain their entertainment?
2. People are free to play the game any number of different ways.
3. It is a big gaming world - room for many styles.
4. Why cram your individual sensibilities down other people's throats when it is a big gaming world and you have the opportunity to play the way that you want to?
5. Why post hyperbole and misinformation that does not advance a real conversation?

I really have not seen anyone respond to these counterpoints yet. Instead, the conversation degrades into philosophical avoiding strategies and references to tobacco advertising.

Oh well.

Vallin

[Vallin]

Tagging our definition of game breaking of hyperbolic is, to put it simply, merely rhetorical, dismissive and fallacious if you don't at least take the time to prove why it's hyperbolic, which you have not done thus far to the best of my knowledge.

I gave concrete examples of hyperbole and misinformation in this thread.

The concrete examples that I provided just can't seem to penetrate deeply enough into the potato for you (that's another 'own private Idaho' reference, for the bored or uninspired who are getting sick of reading all the posts in this thread).

Sorry.

Vallin

[GeneralDiomedes]

Of course it cheapens the game, and makes it incrementally easier. However, this slope was started on long long ago. It began with Rez scrolls and Rez shrines, continued with Rez enhancements and the Ancestor ring, nose-dived with a neutered death penalty, slipped even further with Death Pact, plunged with teleporting Rez hirelings, and so here we are today where it is nearly impossible to have to recall no matter what you do. And D&D purists are complaining about grazing hits?

To counteract all of this they have added .. an XP bonus for not dying. Perhaps the new high level content will be a blood-bath of epic proportions and party success will require dozens of raises but I'm not holding my breath.

[Borror0]

I gave concrete examples of hyperbole and misinformation in this thread.

The concrete examples that I provided just can't seem to penetrate deeply enough into the potato for you
The "concrete examples" you gave do not apply to everyone taking that position and therefore is a straw man.

[Vallin]

Of course it cheapens the game, and makes it incrementally easier. However, this slope was started on long long ago. It began with Rez scrolls and Rez shrines, continued with Rez enhancements and the Ancestor ring, nose-dived with a neutered death penalty, slipped even further with Death Pact, plunged with teleporting Rez hirelings, and so here we are today where it is nearly impossible to have to recall no matter what you do. And D&D purists are complaining about grazing hits?

To counteract all of this they have added .. an XP bonus for not dying. Perhaps the new high level content will be a blood-bath of epic proportions and party success will require dozens of raises but I'm not holding my breath.

Hm, interesting General. There is a point in here we can bring out.

You said "Of course it cheapens the game..." and then you make reference to "D&D purists."

Is the problem here that the changes are mostly disturbing to people who are approaching this from a purist's standpoint or at least with that bias in mind? As a parallel example, some people HATED Lord of the Rings movies because they were interpretations and did not follow the books exactly. Others LOVED the movies because they were entertaining and perhaps reminiscent of the books and Tolkein lore.

From my perspective, the DDO game feels fun to play. I know that it is not D&D, but it is certainly reminiscent of D&D. Changes are made here and there across modules. Players adapt and new strategies are developed - but it is all still fun. I personally don't have a set interpretive ruleset that says "This is not pure" or "this is not D&D." My value meter is based on "Is this fun."

Is the protest about the lack of purity to a D&D ruleset? Obviously that will be a problem for the purist.

If all the protestations are not about purity then I don't know what the problems is. I just haven't seen someone be able to explain why another player's interpretive perspective of FUN should impede another person's interpretive perspective of FUN.

Vallin

[Vallin]

The "concrete examples" you gave do not apply to everyone taking that position and therefore is a straw man.

OK so you think that someone's mommy will buy them magical full plate in the store with a credit card, even though there is no evidence that this will ever occur and in fact the Devs stated that these kinds of items won't be for sale.

And you also think that Turbine is actively gunning for kid's milk money.

Have fun in Idaho.

This thread is boring now.

Vallin.

[Mudcnd]

YEAH! It is too much to ask us to ignore people who post how uber leet sauce they are, so I want to see the devs calculate a "Noob Factor" and an "Uber Factor" next to each name in any quest. That way we can all know who is really the most noob and who is the most uber. Then please put the information on a Marquee posting on the DDO website so all of our friends can see how great we are and also so we can see how badly other people suck. If you ever use the DDO store I think you should qualify for 2 months of an Uber Noob listing.

This is all vital information. WE MUST HAVE IT!

It also really matters to me and it is my business to know how much money someone else spends on their entertainment, so I think that instead of guild names you should have a dollar amount of how much money they charged on their mom's credit card!

/sarcasm off

I wasn't asking for any of that , but myself i would like to have the use of self rez's listed i don't think its a big deal, no ubernoob listing like you said but i would prefer to know when someone says they did abbot with no exploits , if the way they finished was just party wiping and self rezing every time a certain someone says inferno.

The reason I say the part about consumables is just so that when a cleric or bard is " paying"(heal scrolls, rez scrolls , mana pots) a crappy group thru a quest that they should not normally be able to complete, at the end it will show the ******** amount of plat and resources spent. That could have the effect of having some people rethink the play style , or build or equipment. (the consumables list could just show what was used by who, not necessarily who the heal scrolls were cast on, that way no one gets singled out as being a mana sponge")

"I want to see the devs calculate a "Noob Factor" and an "Uber Factor" next to each name in any quest." They have that its called the silly kill count , adding a listing of who self rez'd wouldn't change anything !

[Borror0]

OK so you think that someone's mommy will buy them magical full plate in the store with a credit card, even though there is no evidence that this will ever occur and in fact the Devs stated that these kinds of items won't be for sale.

And you also think that Turbine is actively gunning for kid's milk money.
Yeah, those are two good examples of what a straw man looks like.

[Favis]

From a recent Ten Ton Hammer interview (http://www.tentonhammer.com/node/70586/page/2):

This gives us an idea of the value of the 500 Turbine points we get as VIP (between $5.00 and $7.50).

It then continues by listing the prices:
Originally Posted by Ten Ton Hammer
Favored Soul - 595 Turbine Points

Warforged Race – 300 Points

XP Potions - 30-90 Points (depending on the length of time they last)

Exotic Hair Dyes - 180 Points

Weapons and Armor - 20-80 Points

Siberys Spirit Cake (Rez Cake) – 90 Points

Bell of Opening (Opens Chests) – 20 Points

Moderate Health Potion – 45 Points

Adventure Packs - Varies

As Tolero described (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=2200513#post2200513) a month ago, a Siberys Spirit Cake is a a consumable that you can use to bring your party members or yourself back to life. As the Bell of Opening, the interview describes this as an item allowing you to open any chest.

...
I feel strange that Turbin sell things that takes almost no time to develope.

From my point of view content like Adventure Packs, races (Warforged Race), classes (like Favored Soul) and possible Exotic Hair Dyes feels right to sell to F2P as they actually takes lots of time to develope (mabe with the exception of Exotic Hair Dyes) it would also reward Turbin every time they make more adventures, races and classes :)
But to pay for raz, healing, OP feels weard. :(

[Vallin]

The reason I say the part about consumables is just so that when a cleric or bard is " paying"(heal scrolls, rez scrolls , mana pots) a crappy group thru a quest that they should not normally be able to complete, at the end it will show the ******** amount of plat and resources spent. That could have the effect of having some people rethink the play style , or build or equipment.


Mud - why do you care? If you want to 'avoid' groups that might have people who use resources then just do 'guild only runs' with people who you know match your preferences.

Suppose someone WANTS to build a character the way that THEY want to!?? Suppose they don't care if they fit in with someone else's preconceived notion of how to play. Suppose someone wants to wear a certain armor JUST BECAUSE it looks cool. Why do they have to reconsider their play style, or their build, or their equipment?

Why does everyone else seem to care SO MUCH about what other people do for fun? Aren't there enough dual wielding cookie cutter twf tempest rangers in the game already?

Simple solution, posted again and again in this thread - the world is big. Stop trying to make people conform to your standards. If you don't like someone else's play or standards or whatever then don't group with them.

Vallin

[bandyman1]

Hey grandmaster who knows everything, what makes you think people will throw money at the problem? You have some special insight into peoples spending habits? And why do you care what they do with thier cash? I thikn you are afraid that your status will some how shrink, and you will be in less of an exclusive club, which tells me you really arent a very good player, the folks buying thier way through the game will suck at it and no amount of money will matter....

They will still suck. That's EXACTLY my point. And considering the big easy button Turbine is introducing, there's no reason or incentive for them to ever improve. My status is going to shrink??? No longer a member of an exclusive club??? Do you even know what you are babbling incoherently about here? You're going to party with these new wave peeps with no skills, who've been spoon-fed to cap??? Because most of us won't. Isn't that the very definition of exclusive?



Oh and last time i checked this was the definition for convenience

Main Entry: 1con·ve·nience
Pronunciation: \kən-ˈvēn-yən(t)s\
Function: noun
Date: 14th century
1: fitness or suitability for performing an action or fulfilling a requirement
2 a: something (as an appliance, device, or service) conducive to comfort or ease bchiefly British : toilet 3
3: a suitable or convenient time <at your convenience>
4: freedom from discomfort : ease


As far as i can tell, this would definitely qualify as a convenience....however if you want to argue with the dictionary, go ahead and load up this website and you can yell at your screen all night for all i care....

Look; I get it that your ****ed that your " master plan " for being the bestest PvP caster EVER!!! by using Otto's Dance and MD got crushed, but what it is, is an easy button that will allow peeps to reach the end levels of the game without ever having to master a basic in-game skillset. Whereas they'll be avoided by the established playerbase like the plague. Then the boards will be full of their wails about being excluded from the " elitests " at the endgame.

As you have said to me; Put your ego aside. You're smater than this Irivan. I'm not really seeing how you don't view this as a problem.

[GeneralDiomedes]

Is the protest about the lack of purity to a D&D ruleset? Obviously that will be a problem for the purist.

If all the protestations are not about purity then I don't know what the problems is. I just haven't seen someone be able to explain why another player's interpretive perspective of FUN should impede another person's interpretive perspective of FUN.
Vallin

I am not a purist, I was merely poking a stick at the "purists" who pick and choose what they are pure about. I too am about fun .. I find challenge and risk fun, which is why I oppose death cheats and applaud grazing hits. It does affect my experience, because I really have no desire anymore to play in the general population. As a result, I find a game like LOTRO more challenging and go there for fulfilling "pug" experiences.

[Vallin]

You're going to party with these new wave peeps with no skills, who've been spoon-fed to cap??? Because most of us won't.

Bandy, perhaps you were hatched into this game as an uber elite player - I really don't care - but this kind of statement represents poorly.

I don't want to spend every moment of my gaming time keeping ducks in a line either - but I certainly don't mind slowing things down a bit and helping out new people once in a while. Someone helped me when I started - and if they had your attitude the game sure would be a lot more empty of players.

You make assumptions that store items will cause people to have no gaming skills. There is still no proof of this - and it is simply conjecture.

I would point out instead that people with your attitude will make sure that new people will have no gaming skills - because you stated yourself that you won't take the time to group with the 'new wave peeps.' Will you have a preconceived notion about the skill set of any person who doesn't know something as well as you? According to your perspective - they are 'new wave peeps' and perhaps they didn't earn their xp the same way you did.

If you are indeed concerned about being labeled 'elitist' by the 'new wave peeps' then don't act so, dare I say it... elitist.

Vallin

[Comfortably]

To raise your self after your dead is broken. To buy mana pots is broken...

[Vallin]

I am not a purist, I was merely poking a stick at the "purists" who pick and choose what they are pure about. I too am about fun .. I find challenge and risk fun, which is why I oppose death cheats and applaud grazing hits. It does affect my experience, because I really have no desire anymore to play in the general population. As a result, I find a game like LOTRO more challenging and go there for fulfilling "pug" experiences.

Good point general, and I agree - if ANYTHING, the system may make PUGs a little different - and it may drive some people into static groups.

I do not know if this is good or bad - and I do not know what will happen. It might depend on overall population. If there are enough people around to form static like-minded groups or guilds it will be ok.

And perhaps it is just an unknown and the impact won't be as big as we think. I tend to optimistically favor this idea - because so many other so called 'game changing' nerfs or alterations didn't break the game for me yet.

Vallin

[kingfisher]

will mana pots be available at the store?

[Lorien_the_First_One]

To raise your self after your dead is broken. To buy mana pots is broken...

I would agree with you on the sp pots if we also banned the existing sp pots from the game. At one point they were much more valuable, now every caster carries a stack.

[Mudcnd]

Mud - why do you care? If you want to 'avoid' groups that might have people who use resources then just do 'guild only runs' with people who you know match your preferences.
"Heh my guild isnt really my preferred play style, heh infact im sure they are the ones that get annoyed with the way i play"

Suppose someone WANTS to build a character the way that THEY want to!??

2nd I have no problem with people building a out of the norm toon, I have 2 hybrid low cha bards, at one time I attempted to make a high dex .... chuckle AC sorc lol's.
If you think im the guy that thinks everyone should have a optimized build , ie the "exploiter build" your sadly mistaken.

Suppose they don't care if they fit in with someone else's preconceived notion of how to play. Suppose someone wants to wear a certain armor JUST BECAUSE it looks cool.

Yeah wrong again im that guy that wears a hot pink docent cuz i like the look of it not the mods , and in all honesty the docent doesnt really look that cool but i wear it cuz i like it

Why do they have to reconsider their play style, or their build, or their equipment?

Never said they have too, only that if the info was there a person could make a informed decision if they felt like they wanted too. pfft in fact im the guy that should rethink his builds and playstyles heh im sure a ton of guildies would confirm this.

Why does everyone else seem to care SO MUCH about what other people do for fun? Aren't there enough dual wielding cookie cutter twf tempest rangers in the game already?

Holy smokes i do agree with you on this one , geez who woulda thunk.!!!11!!!
Im all for fun as long as it doesn't destroy(the fun) or greif the other 5-11 people in the quest .

Simple solution, posted again and again in this thread - the world is big.

Its big ????? really???? no way!


If you don't like someone else's play or standards or whatever then don't group with them.

Vallin

1st of all not once have i said anything about people conforming to my standards, lol ask anyone who knows me I dont have any.

Sry may have made a mess with the quotes lol.

Edit , the main reason that i would like the scrolls listed is because it might open some peoples eyes to how much consumables are used by clerics and bards at times, I know i play my one bard all the time , and I go thru piles of scrolls , and i guess im being selfish but it would be nice for people to notice that a lot of the time the heals arnt from the cleric.

[kingfisher]

I would agree with you on the sp pots if we also banned the existing sp pots from the game. At one point they were much more valuable, now every caster carries a stack.

yeah, a stack they earned (even buying them off the AH is still with plat earned from running), not bought.

[Kalari]

You know as mind numbing as the "Intellectual battle of the egos" this thread has become is. I think I can elaborate why some of us feel that this "buy your way threw quests issue" is just that an issue.

Some of us come from pen and paper backgrounds. Many of us never touched mmos before this either because of immaturity of other players in online games (muds come to mind for my own personal gaming background where free muds tended to wield the dregs of society at times).

So when you see a game based of the game we grew up playing that we loved to sit with our friends and use our imaginations in mmo form. You approach with eager curiosity but are wary about the cheapening of the things youve come to hold dear.

Ive said it plenty of times ddo is no table top game, ive gotten use to not having spells/feats/abilities that I had become used to in Dungeons and Dragons. Yet enjoy some of the things that I do get from the game, spell points in place of having to rest before spells. Getting to group with players from close to home or around the world instead of being one or two girls in a group of sweaty guys in some backroom of a comic store.

But that being said the ability to jump into a store while questing bothers me, not enough to get up in arms about. But it is annoying enough to where I can understand others concerns. Yes this game is not like pen and paper, but stuff like this takes it even further away. You didnt sit in a group with your buds playing pen and paper roll the dice and die then go "hey dm let me slip you a dollar for a resurrection."

So yeah I can get why purists dont like this. And I can even get why Elitists will not either. When I joined this game I was as green as they come to mmo's. Sure I have a pen and paper background but that only goes so far (character creation basically). My first week was amazingly hard. I made and elven wizard thinking just my knowledge of spells and stat placement would be enough for me to take on things alone. I was shy so I did not really want to group. I got my arse handed to me several times by oozes and kobolds. I could have cried had a fit and quit but no I got over the shyness met people listened learned and got to utilize my love of strategy. And I still continue to learn, play the builds and races I wish to play and enjoy the game.

is my way the only way to play? Hell no, but I do feel sorry for those new players coming into EU. Many of them will think its normal to stop mid party and purchase their way out of death. Most will think nothing is wrong with having to think outside of mana when it comes to running out. But thats on them I wont shun a player unless they are so horrible personality wise my patience cannot take them. But I do see how this may create a new crop of players who wont be able to function without a band aid. That to me is very sad.

[bandyman1]

Bandy, perhaps you were hatched into this game as an uber elite player - I really don't care - but this kind of statement represents poorly. No, I wasn't. I started playing in Alpha, and developed my ingame skillset along with everyone else. But I had incentive to learn, and to improve, because the game hadn't been " dumbed down " at that point.

I don't want to spend every moment of my gaming time keeping ducks in a line either - but I certainly don't mind slowing things down a bit and helping out new people once in a while. Someone helped me when I started - and if they had your attitude the game sure would be a lot more empty of players. I've helped more than my fair share of newer players bro. But, I'm bored. When I'm ingame, I want to blast through content, while laughing and making crack comments with my friends, as fast as possible. After all, I've ran these quests hundreds of times before. I don't have any desire to hold hands through content. Been there, done that. Time to pass the torch. Problem is; Most of the peeps I know feel the same as I do.

You make assumptions that store items will cause people to have no gaming skills. There is still no proof of this - and it is simply conjecture.

I would point out instead that people with your attitude will make sure that new people will have no gaming skills - because you stated yourself that you won't take the time to group with the 'new wave peeps.' Will you have a preconceived notion about the skill set of any person who doesn't know something as well as you? According to your perspective - they are 'new wave peeps' and perhaps they didn't earn their xp the same way you did. I explained most of this above. I won't group with them, you're correct. And most of the " old crowd " that I know won't either. So, that leaves the onus on them to pick up their skills the same way we did; By experience. The problem is, all challenge has now been removed from the equation by Turbine. So yeah; I'm comfrotable saying that the majority of these peeps will lack fundamental skills at cap.

If you are indeed concerned about being labeled 'elitist' by the 'new wave peeps' then don't act so, dare I say it... elitist. I could care less what I'm labeled. What concerns me, is peeps coming into the game, and then quitting in droves several months later because the players who weren't spoon-fed to cap, refuse to accept them into groups for high end content ( Re. Raids ). And noone can really blame the established players, because ( IMHO; Your's may vary ) the new peeps won't have the skills to contribute. Period. So, we end up right where we started, with really no gain for the effort.

Vallin

In RED.

[Mudcnd]

yeah, a stack they earned (even buying them off the AH is still with plat earned from running), not bought.

Plat earned from loot or bought off plat farmers? Hard to tell if that plat is earned so ....

[kingfisher]

Plat earned from loot or bought off plat farmers? Hard to tell if that plat is earned so ....

so that makes it fair to sell endless mana for real money? and i am not really sure how many people buy plat from the farmers. plat is pretty friggin easy to come by in the game.

[Kylani]

In RED.

If I were a new person, I would be happy to hear that I won't have to group with a bunch of close minded people who pre-judge me before ever even meeting me.

[Vallin]

is my way the only way to play? Hell no, but I do feel sorry for those new players coming into EU. Many of them will think its normal to stop mid party and purchase their way out of death. Most will think nothing is wrong with having to think outside of mana when it comes to running out. But thats on them I wont shun a player unless they are so horrible personality wise my patience cannot take them. But I do see how this may create a new crop of players who wont be able to function without a band aid. That to me is very sad.

I get your concern Kalari - and I think we all talked about the purist (which I don't think is negative) perspective that makes someone WANT it to be just like our pen and paper experiences. I understand that - but the reality is that in order to 'survive' the changes (mentally) I think we are forced to abandon our purist perspectives to a large degree.

Anyway, I am also encouraged because of a recent experience in guild - which I know is anecdotal but I think was interesting. A very established guildie brought two IRL friends into the game. He grouped with them almost exclusively through their early levels. His particular game skills probably ensured that they were successful - I don't know of many people who know the game better than he does.

He was 'The Store' for his two friends. I know that he provided them will all kinds of supplies and in some sense he probably served as both DM for them as well as Total Safety Net.

Now they are level 13 or 14 or so - and we all went into VoD recently - and I can't tell you how impressed I was with how these two people performed. The cleric was as good as any cleric I have seen in VoD and the sorc handled all of those duties flawlessly. These people had the maximum easy button all the way through in that they had unlimited supplies and resources but they are most certainly not lacking game skills.

This anecdote indicates to me that normal mentoring and cooperative guild play mitigates any risk of failure due to so called 'easy buttons.'

Vallin

[Mudcnd]

so that makes it fair to sell endless mana for real money? and i am not really sure how many people buy plat from the farmers. plat is pretty friggin easy to come by in the game.

No i dont think its fair, I really don't , infact i kinda think its game breaking.
But at the same time large stacks of mana pots could be bought cheap at times off plat farmers and auction house.

[kingfisher]

No i dont think its fair, I really don't , infact i kinda think its game breaking.
But at the same time large stacks of mana pots could be bought cheap at times off plat farmers and auction house.

so are they available at the ddo store or no? anyone know?

[Kalari]

I get your concern Kalari - and I think we all talked about the purist (which I don't think is negative) perspective that makes someone WANT it to be just like our pen and paper experiences. I understand that - but the reality is that in order to 'survive' the changes (mentally) I think we are forced to abandon our purist perspectives to a large degree.

Anyway, I am also encouraged because of a recent experience in guild - which I know is anecdotal but I think was interesting. A very established guildie brought two IRL friends into the game. He grouped with them almost exclusively through their early levels. His particular game skills probably ensured that they were successful - I don't know of many people who know the game better than he does.

He was 'The Store' for his two friends. I know that he provided them will all kinds of supplies and in some sense he probably served as both DM for them as well as Total Safety Net.

Now they are level 13 or 14 or so - and we all went into VoD recently - and I can't tell you how impressed I was with how these two people performed. The cleric was as good as any cleric I have seen in VoD and the sorc handled all of those duties flawlessly. These people had the maximum easy button all the way through in that they had unlimited supplies and resources but they are most certainly not lacking game skills.

This anecdote indicates to me that normal mentoring and cooperative guild play mitigates any risk of failure due to so called 'easy buttons.'

Vallin


True but there is a difference from what you listed and what the store brings. Your friend may have helped with gear and advice but he taught them as well. And the people involved with the mentoring got to learn the ins and out of the game with maybe a friend bandaid but im sure your friend let them learn stuff the hard way as well. Ive had many great mentors in this game many im proud enough to run guild with. I am not an uber or leet player by long shot I goof up still but Ive learned a lot aggro management, spell point conservation and not to depend on easy outs to get threw the game. That satisfies me, though I will not assume my satisfaction should be the norm for other players.

I just think it boils down to how far will this store go? right now many can only speculate. A. because of the fiasco of how they are passing out beta keys. B. because even with beta some of us dont want to ruin the new experience by seeing it all before it goes live. so yeah speculating and rumor mongering is wrong and people should not base their fears of EU on them. But I can seriously see why having such things as microtransactions is a severe annoyance especially to those who have been here since Beta. The last 3 years the game has changed and evolved some things people have come to accept (lack of death penalty) changes to weapons and the like. Many have stuck it out many have left. I just dont want to see more decent players leave in droves due to the game not being the same anymore. Change is good but too much change takes away from the games original thinkers mentality. Thats just how I feel on it I respect anyone who disagrees and wont try to change their minds and hope they show me that same courtesy.

[spymasterx]

Not a shot at you Aerendil by any means since I agree this as how it will certainly be utilized. But, isn't this pretty much just cheating? If not in name (since Turbine is allowing it obviously) but in spirit?

No pun intended :)

I think cheating is mostly all a matter of perception IMO.I mean, I hear of people e-mailing their lowbie toons all matter of equipment and money and tomes.Add in the the fact you have a toon in this game w/ godlike stats?? (some fighters in this game are stronger than Kord himself)and +5 weapons and armor that are as common as anything else.My old DM would never allow these sort of things. After only a week I really love this game but, the amount of magic and tomes is just silly.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

so are they available at the ddo store or no? anyone know?

Join beta and you can see for yourself what is and is not for sale in the beta Turbine store and contribute to the discusions of what should/should not be in the store.

[kingfisher]

Join beta and you can see for yourself what is and is not for sale in the beta Turbine store and contribute to the discusions of what should/should not be in the store.

no thanks, if they want to beta test their game they should freaking pay someone to do it

[Thrudh]

I wasn't asking for any of that , but myself i would like to have the use of self rez's listed i don't think its a big deal, no ubernoob listing like you said but i would prefer to know when someone says they did abbot with no exploits , if the way they finished was just party wiping and self rezing every time a certain someone says inferno.

The reason I say the part about consumables is just so that when a cleric or bard is " paying"(heal scrolls, rez scrolls , mana pots) a crappy group thru a quest that they should not normally be able to complete, at the end it will show the ******** amount of plat and resources spent. That could have the effect of having some people rethink the play style , or build or equipment. (the consumables list could just show what was used by who, not necessarily who the heal scrolls were cast on, that way no one gets singled out as being a mana sponge")



This is a great idea

[Thrudh]

but I do feel sorry for those new players coming into EU. Many of them will think its normal to stop mid party and purchase their way out of death. Most will think nothing is wrong with having to think outside of mana when it comes to running out. But thats on them I wont shun a player unless they are so horrible personality wise my patience cannot take them. But I do see how this may create a new crop of players who wont be able to function without a band aid. That to me is very sad.

Maybe it will turn out that way... I'm thinking it won't though... No one wants to spend cash to win...

Just like today where using a pot in the Shroud indicates a bad run (and makes everyone else cringe and offer up replacments to the cleric), the same dynamic will take place with a self-raise cake...

If someone has to use one to save the day, we'll all be grateful, but we'll recognize the cost, and cringe inside...

No one can use store-bought pots and self-raise cakes ALL THE TIME. It's too costly. They will learn to play without them, just like we did.

[Thrudh]

The problem is, all challenge has now been removed from the equation by Turbine. So yeah; I'm comfrotable saying that the majority of these peeps will lack fundamental skills at cap.
.

I believe you are incorrect... It will be too costly to use the store all the time. Other than rich kids with parents who don't mind shelling out $400 a month on a game, most new players will learn to complete quests without those store bought items.

[irivan]

That's not how Fernando defines convenience (http://www.crispygamer.com/news/index.php/2009-06-15/going-free-to-play-the-dd-online-unlimited-qa/):


Fernando's definition implies that it must not be game breaking.

And it is not game breaking, so whats your point?

[Borror0]

And it is not game breaking, so whats your point?
It's game breaking.

[irivan]

no thanks, if they want to beta test their game they should freaking pay someone to do it

You are totally disqualified

[irivan]

It's game breaking.

No it is not

[kingfisher]

You are totally disqualified

from what? beta? big ****ing deal

[irivan]

Because Kate and Fernando have done so well with the direction of DDO. They've eroded the player base to the point that DDO has to be given away for free to get people to play.

Not that I think they care or will listen, but its something to do when there's nothing to do in-game and you're paying them for not much.

According to Kate, mod 9 was going to be here January 1st 2009 as well - so her comments don't give me any sense of confidence either given apparently the plan for F2P was in place well before that. Some mixed messages/potential untruths to the player base leading to minimal to no credibility.

Wow you seem fairly certain the game has been totally ruined, i am surprised you are still here? At this point why? And why do you care any more?

After all it is their game, and if the people are running it are ruining it, why do you stick around?

just curious?

[Pyromaniac]

Wow you seem fairly certain the game has been totally ruined, i am surprised you are still here? At this point why? And why do you care any more?

After all it is their game, and if the people are running it are ruining it, why do you stick around?

just curious?

I didn't say it was totally ruined, though I suspect microtransactions/nerfs/no new content for likely over a year will take it there. Just that Kate/Fernando have run a great game into the ground where sadly it will probably disappear.

Why a I posting here? Because I'm stuck paying until my cancelled sub is up in August, so why not? If I hadn't been strung along and lied to by the misinformation machine I wouldn't have renewed early this year. So why not post on the forums, I'm paying to be able to do that.

There really was no point in paying in 2009 for DDO, it makes much better sense to join the 'pay for 2 months only after each mod' crowd. So that's where I will be in January 2010 when mod 9 is released. And there again in January 2011 when mod 10 is released (maybe - hoping Neverwinter Nights online is coming by then).

[irivan]

I didn't say it was totally ruined, though I suspect microtransactions/nerfs/no new content for likely over a year will take it there. Just that Kate/Fernando have run a great game into the ground where sadly it will probably disappear.

Why a I posting here? Because I'm stuck paying until my cancelled sub is up in August, so why not? If I hadn't been strung along and lied to by the misinformation machine I wouldn't have renewed early this year. So why not post on the forums, I'm paying to be able to do that.

There really was no point in paying in 2009 for DDO, it makes much better sense to join the 'pay for 2 months only after each mod' crowd. So that's where I will be in January 2010 when mod 9 is released. And there again in January 2011 when mod 10 is released (maybe - hoping Neverwinter Nights online is coming by then).

Well thank you for the sraight forward answer, so hard to get here.

[bandyman1]

I believe you are incorrect... It will be too costly to use the store all the time. Other than rich kids with parents who don't mind shelling out $400 a month on a game, most new players will learn to complete quests without those store bought items.

It's not just the store Thrudh; It's experience bonuses, dungeon scaling, ect. It's going to be easier than ever before for people to make it to cap without gaining basic skills, something that isn't exactly hard right now.

This game is not a hard one to master. It never was, so why do we seem to need to all of a sudden make everything even easier???

[Raithe]

....they quit. The motivation to play was gone.

I'm quoting this because the short sentence at the end sort of rang when I read it. I think many of the pro-store arguments in this thread are missing a few simple ideas:

1) A game is entirely subjective. It is not a matter of health, survival, or future preparedness (at least not directly). If it suddenly becomes less than appealing there is little to no impetus to keep playing.

2) Complete playstyle isolation is not going to be possible in a Massively Multiplayer Online Game. If a certain percentage of the player population plays a certain way, it will affect who stays and who departs. I'm watching and playing DDO and making comments about it almost purely as an academic study of this phenomenon while I wait for other MMO projects to develop.

Let's examine who has departed before:

1) Players who have run out of content, the largest statistic by far. Repeating dungeons was not their cup of tea. I wonder how these types of players would have stuck it out? I can't imagine any sort of scenario...

2) Players disgruntled by change. Players of humans who were no longer skilled, rogues that failed at traps even though the party completed elite just fine anyway, paladins that no longer evaded in heavy armor. I wonder how they could trust the game mechanics ever again, for their style of play? I'm just not sure...

3) Players whose friends have disappeared. If the nature of the game was much less important than the interaction with friends, can we expect such a player to spend precious entertainment time for strangers? I can't think of a reason for them to do so...

4) Players who simply find the game no longer appealing. A game needs to be interesting, and if a change or lack thereof prevents a certain player from finding interest, I can't believe they'd remember to log in...

The store is going to break the game for a certain number of people, whether large or small, there is no sense in arguing that reality. It has happened before, and most likely will happen sometime in the future as well. Letting those people air their grievances to the developers and the other members of the playerbase are what these forums are supposed to allow (within a certain range of politeness).

As for the 20 million dollar question, will DDO survive this [for years to come]?

My answer is simply, I think not.

EDIT: Inserted a qualification to a statement.

[irivan]

I have been watching for years now, as the game makes change after change, and the doomsayers predicting its end, and countless players swearing they are done this time for good!!!

Then what happens?

The game goes on, old players that quit come back, new ones try the game and stay too, some leave, some stay....

rinse and repeat

Game still here

I can recall multiple players in the forums who i can recall posting so many dread and i am done posts, only to see them back and running around in the game...again!!!


Bottom line, if you have played other MMO's and i have, you leave try a new game, and presto, you are back...

go ahead, go play vanguard, eq, WOW, what ever, you will be back, this game is better, it will still be better after mod 9, in fact i cant wait till it launches i think their strategy is brilliant

So i am keeping all of these doom sayer posts and i am going to repost them a year from now, and i am going to laugh it up!

[Borror0]

So i am keeping all of these doom sayer posts and i am going to repost them a year from now, and i am going to laugh it up!
Be sure to separate the "doomsaying" from the ones who say that it's simply bad for the game.

It's not because it does not "kill it" that it's good.

[Vallin]

If a certain percentage of the player population plays a certain way, it will affect who stays and who departs. I'm watching and playing DDO and making comments about it almost purely as an academic study of this phenomenon while I wait for other MMO projects to develop.

Let's examine who has departed before:

1) Players who have run out of content, the largest statistic by far. Repeating dungeons was not their cup of tea. I wonder how these types of players would have stuck it out? I can't imagine any sort of scenario...


Hey Raithe, I appreciate academic study and I am really interested in the things you are saying. I would love to know the percentages who play different ways, and I would like to know the percentages of why people leave. Can you please provide me the references you have that support your statements?

Certainly your statements can't be unsubstantiated speculation, because if you are approaching it as an academic exercise I am sure that you are able to properly reference the things you are saying.

Thanks so much.

Vallin.

[Borror0]

Certainly your statements can't be unsubstantiated speculation, because if you are approaching it as an academic exercise
You might want to look up the word academic in a dictionary (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/academic). An "academic study" can be merely speculative.

[Vallin]

You might want to look up the word academic in a dictionary (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/academic). An "academic study" can be merely speculative.

Maybe in your world, sir - but try floating that perspective in an academic environment and see how far it gets you.

An academic exercise in its crudest form may have some speculative component to it, but then it is assigned the lowest 'level of evidence' - and it's relative value is judged based upon its 'level of evidence.' This kind of 'speculation' that is assigned lowest academic value has the criteria that it be 'expert opinion' - so actually you are quite incorrect if you think that a person with no credential can opine about something and claim it to be an 'academic exercise.'

For the record of this thread - if this individual can't provide some evidence to back up his claim about statistics then it is yet another example of misinformation. If he is able to produce some data I am really interested in seeing it - and I will accept his assertion that he is engaging in an academic exercise. Alternately, if he is able to provide some evidence that he could be considered to have 'expert opinion' in this area of statistics related to DDO then I will accept his speculation - and then still assign it low academic value because it is just 'expert opinion' that is not backed up with data.

But this is obviously another example of where the whole world understands what 'levels of evidence' are and what an 'academic exercise' that has value is - well that is everyone except you. If you think that you will find rules about levels of evidence in an online dictionary then you obviously have a long way to go in your own academic training.

So let's get it over with now - you can call it another straw man and go troll somewhere else. We already know that you don't accept anyone else's definition of anything.

Vallin

[Raithe]

Maybe in your world, sir - but try floating that perspective in an academic environment and see how far it gets you.

Borror is right, you entirely mistook the definition of the term academic in my post.

I'll post it for you:



1 a: of, relating to, or associated with an academy or school especially of higher learning b: of or relating to performance in academic courses <academic excellence> c: very learned but inexperienced in practical matters <academic thinkers> d: based on formal study especially at an institution of higher learning
2: of or relating to literary or artistic rather than technical or professional studies
3 a: theoretical, speculative <an academic question> b: having no practical or useful significance
4: conforming to the traditions or rules of a school (as of literature or art) or an official academy : conventional <academic painting>


As for my opinion, it is what it is. You can take it or leave it, just like the other 130 of them in this thread alone.

[Vallin]

Borror is right, you entirely mistook the definition of the term academic in my post.

As for my opinion, it is what it is. You can take it or leave it, just like the other 130 of them in this thread alone.

No - I didn't mistake anything - you said that you were engaging in an academic study. That is quite different than asking an academic question.

Now I know that you were simply posting your opinion, which is fine - but don't call something an academic study, and then make references to statistics that you don't even have - and expect not to be asked about it.

Vallin

[Raithe]

No - I didn't mistake anything - you said that you were engaging in an academic study. That is quite different than asking an academic question.


From context alone you should have been able to discern the meaning. I said that I was engaging in an almost purely academic study while I was waiting for something else to happen.

This is easily identifiable as meaning, "engaging in an almost purely speculative study that has little to no practical use, while waiting for something else to happen."

The truth is that I may put the information and impressions I have gotten to practical use someday, so it is not purely academic, just close to it.

The purpose of the phrase was to inject the idea that this is a somewhat objective analysis, I don't really care one way or the other how it actually turns out.


The game goes on, old players that quit come back, new ones try the game and stay too, some leave, some stay....

rinse and repeat

Game still here

I can recall multiple players in the forums who i can recall posting so many dread and i am done posts, only to see them back and running around in the game...again!!!


I just wanted to add a reply that I, too, pay attention to those who come and go in the game. Lately I've seen a lot of new people, which somewhat surprises me.

There are also a lot of people who didn't necessarily participate in the forums that I have never seen return, ever. In any case, coming back to see what is happening is not exactly the same as being a fully interested permanent subscriber.

Especially with free-to-play gaming on the way.

[Rindalathar]

Oh, I'm sure some idiots will go rogue 20 regardless of the capstone. ;)

Drac, you and me, bro! You and me. We'll be like two village idiots wandering around Ghallanda wondering why no one wants to group with us.

[Vallin]

From context alone you should have been able to discern the meaning. I said that I was engaging in an almost purely academic study while I was waiting for something else to happen.

This is easily identifiable as meaning, "engaging in an almost purely speculative study that has little to no practical use, while waiting for something else to happen."

The truth is that I may put the information and impressions I have gotten to practical use someday, so it is not purely academic, just close to it.

The purpose of the phrase was to inject the idea that this is a somewhat objective analysis, I don't really care one way or the other how it actually turns out.



Actually, in context, you made reference to statistics and statistics are most certainly not speculative - but you really don't have any. When people talk about statistics they should be able to produce them.

And I am not picking on you in particular, so please don't take it that way. My bone to pick is with the general tendency of people on this forum to make grand statements of DOOM and act as if the statement is something other than personal opinion.

People might be influenced by things that people post, and alleged statements of fact that reference statistics can have a negative impact on perceptions. If DOOM exists, I would just like to see the evidence.

[Drfirewater79]

one thing to remember is credit card charge fee's

its just under a buck for a rez pot but if you buy them one at a time tack on another 50c for credit card fee's and that makes it 1.40 total cost to the player.

Think its a perfect price where i feel the price is too low is on favored soul

if they are gonna make us do 2500 favor then the cost for favored soul should be reflected in that time vs price .... think it should be like 1000 for favored soul

that way its still valid to do the favor to get it (it would take at least 4 weeks of favor grinding to get from 1750 to 2500 if you work weekdays most i have been able to get since 2009 favor is 130 a day i spent two and a half days last weekend doing practically nothing but favor run parties and only got to 2340 from 2009)

now its like forget it cause 500 free for first month and create a new toon and two weeks and its unlocked through store rather then work for in game.

maybe they should change the amount of favor the favor'ed soul is gonna be to unlock take it down to 2000 and its price vs favor ratio will be more logical.

[Mudcnd]

[QUOTE=Drfirewater79;2279625]one thing to remember is credit card charge fee's

its just under a buck for a rez pot but if you buy them one at a time tack on another 50c for credit card fee's and that makes it 1.40 total cost to the player.

Lemme think about this ok rez pot = .90 , and your credit card company is going to charge you over and above 50% interest, right off the bat!!!!
I know the banks in the states are having a hard time but sheesh.<----- lol and here i thought you were from the states but after all you live in TO
With that 50% interest are they nice enough to apply a little squirt of lube????

*** I know what your saying tho , i just couldn't resist

[Drfirewater79]

[QUOTE=Drfirewater79;2279625]one thing to remember is credit card charge fee's

its just under a buck for a rez pot but if you buy them one at a time tack on another 50c for credit card fee's and that makes it 1.40 total cost to the player.

Lemme think about this ok rez pot = .90 , and your credit card company is going to charge you over and above 50% interest, right off the bat!!!!
I know the banks in the states are having a hard time but sheesh.<----- lol and here i thought you were from the states but after all you live in TO
With that 50% interest are they nice enough to apply a little squirt of lube????

*** I know what your saying tho , i just couldn't resist

yeah i have a fixed master card (pre paid) they charge .50c per transaction .. no interest.

i am sure on a regular card it will be less but still buying one at a time can be expensive think its still better to buy 30 or 40 and just use when you need if your gonna buy them at all ...

personally i prolly wont buy them at all or just use free points to get them if i need them that bad.

guess it depends on how much you solo

[irivan]

Borror is right, you entirely mistook the definition of the term academic in my post.

I'll post it for you:



As for my opinion, it is what it is. You can take it or leave it, just like the other 130 of them in this thread alone.

Originally Posted by Merriam Webster Online Dictionary
1 a: of, relating to, or associated with an academy or school especially of higher learning b: of or relating to performance in academic courses <academic excellence> c: very learned but inexperienced in practical matters <academic thinkers> d: based on formal study especially at an institution of higher learning
2: of or relating to literary or artistic rather than technical or professional studies
3 a: theoretical, speculative <an academic question> b: having no practical or useful significance4: conforming to the traditions or rules of a school (as of literature or art) or an official academy : conventional <academic painting>

Thank you for admitting that your statement had no "practicle or useful signifigance"

I totally agree with this, you wasted your breath!!

Play it again Sam!!! The sky is falling!!

[Dark_Helmet]

I don't think your comparison fits very well. In your comparison you had no way to be even with your competitor without also resorting to purchasing additional benefits.

There are many differences with the DDO model:
(1) For the most part, it is not a competition, this is a PvE game, not a PvP game.
(2) As a non-payer, you were limitted to a set number of opportunities to advance, one turn per week, etc. In DDO, "non-payers" can have vastly different advancement rates, one player can play six hours a day and another can play six hours a week.

How is the game hurt more by a player who plays for six hours a week using "double experience potions" (hypothetical item) than one who plays for four hours a day, six days a week, but refuses to ever purchase anything from the store?

I was responding to someone calling us out for being a whiner without any basis, but here goes:

One game USED to be flat rate. It went to a pay-for-more-power. The game became toast. The game company decided to make it so you had to buy the special orders for your people to survive (which cost more money). People who weren't even affected left because "why invest the time when someone can just buy their way up the chain".

Why is the game hurt? Because it cheapens the gaming experience.
While not competitors, you have to group with these people. We already know how people react when you don't have certain items in groups. I can just see it extend to people being banned for not buying the unlimited mana. Likewise, people who buy their levels are usually not very experienced. As an example you can usally tell when someone starts playing with a bought account or had a plat farmer level their character for them - they can't even find the market place and they are level 11?Don't know a disruptor won't work on a red named? This will be very prevelant in groups: people who are higher level then their experience.

[Dark_Helmet]

No matter what way you slice it - your comments are not facts. They are misinformation and they are hyperbole.

I'm really interested in following a logical conversation here, but I am just getting lost on your point of comparisons to the marketing strategies of tobacco companies.

Whatever - the significant counterpoints in the thread included:

I really have not seen anyone respond to these counterpoints yet. Instead, the conversation degrades into philosophical avoiding strategies and references to tobacco advertising.

Oh well.

Vallin

Misinformation? Hyperbole? I am basing my opinion upon previous experience. How can that be misinformation - as opposed to your personal attacks.

You were calling me out for posting something you think I made up, so I gave concrete examples of where I saw PBM companies changed costing models and destroyed their games and how companies (cigarette was the example) sometime see only the bottom line (greedy) and don't care if what they do is bad for their customers or even legal.


You don't get our vew point and that is fine with me, but you don't have to cram your opinion down our throats by insulting us and effectively saying we are stupid since it won't affect us. The changes do affect us, but you don't care.

Since you can't even see our viewpoint, the "counterpoints" are invalid. You are ignoring the fact that the changes are affecting all players in one way or another.

If they started new worlds setup this way and left the old the way they were, I would have no complaints.


So here are some points (my opinion):

My opinion is based on previous game experience with gaming companies. if it has happened before, it will happen again.

I think they are going away from a flat rate purely for profit reasons. This means they are more concerned about how to make money instead of how to be successful.

This game was about D&D 3.5. This is the reason I have paid for 3 years to play the game. Changes in this new model are already being made away from the ruleset. How far are they going to go?

Some people think this is a desperate attempt to save DDO: Why did prominent staff leave the company because they didn't adopt microtransactions and now are doing it? (btw that staff created a company that was doing microtransactions because they believe in it). If so, this means they will try pretty much anything to save it - including the changing of the rules away from D&D. [I hope this is not true, but it is an interesting point]

I am a paying player, so I am allowed an opinion - just like you are allowed your opinion. I recognize people are fine with the changes and accept them. Maybe you need to be a bit more civil?


One more thing:
People who don't learn from the past are doomed to repeat it.

[Vallin]

So here are some points (my opinion):

My opinion is based on previous game experience with gaming companies. if it has happened before, it will happen again.

I think they are going away from a flat rate purely for profit reasons. This means they are more concerned about how to make money instead of how to be successful.

This game was about D&D 3.5. This is the reason I have paid for 3 years to play the game. Changes in this new model are already being made away from the ruleset. How far are they going to go?

Some people think this is a desperate attempt to save DDO: Why did prominent staff leave the company because they didn't adopt microtransactions and now are doing it? (btw that staff created a company that was doing microtransactions because they believe in it). If so, this means they will try pretty much anything to save it - including the changing of the rules away from D&D. [I hope this is not true, but it is an interesting point]

I am a paying player, so I am allowed an opinion - just like you are allowed your opinion. I recognize people are fine with the changes and accept them. Maybe you need to be a bit more civil?

One more thing:
People who don't learn from the past are doomed to repeat it.

Well, it is not true that when something has happened before it is destined to happen again. I understand that you claim previous experience but that has no bearing on this situation. This is faulty thinking.

Um, as for making money vs. being successful - I think they are the same thing - so I am not sure what you are talking about.

re: deviation from 3.5 - valid points, but again, if purity is your concern I think we can all agree that DDO is not the game for you. This is decidedly not a pure D&D experience and if you are looking for it to be you will get disappointed.

If prominent people left the company because of internal conflicts about microtransactions I have no such knowledge. If that is true, I would like to know the evidence for it because it would be interesting. Without evidence, it is just speculation.

Finally, as for being civil - I think that my posts are more civil than 99% of what you read on this forum. From my perspective I see that a couple people are hitting a brick wall with me because in this thread I am calling them out on issues of hyperbole and misinformation. Many people are apparently not used to being called to task to defend the things they are actually posting.

If you work your way through this lengthy thread you will see that I have asked some very basic questions about people's concerns - and I think we can agree that there are really only a few valid conclusions we can draw out of those concerns:

1. PUG experiences might change, some, with people's ability to have access to an in-game store. We don't know yet because it hasn't happened. An alternate option for people is to play in static or guild groups if the store option is not palatable to them - just the same way that the PermaDeathers do.

2. If you are looking for D&D purity, you will likely be disappointed. This game is based on D&D - it is not a direct translation of the pen and paper game.

Everything else has been hyperbole and misinformation. People claim to know statistics about droves of people leaving - and why they leave, people claiming that the game is 'broken' - which I am not sure what that means but it sounds quite severe, people claiming that Turbine is trying to shake down children for their lunch money, and people claim that you will be able to 'buy your way to the top' and that the game will be full of players who are clueless and have no gameplay skill. It has all been a bunch of hyperbolic misinformation based on speculation and fear.

I am no fan-boy but I believe in accuracy, so I choose to participate in this thread to ask for some clarity, calmness, and accuracy in discussing changes.

Vallin

[Borror0]

Well, it is not true that when something has happened before it is destined to happen again.
Camus called that "the absurdity of science and history" but that's a bit on an extreme position, if you ask me.

It rejects the value of any past events.

Um, as for making money vs. being successful - I think they are the same thing - so I am not sure what you are talking about.
I think you failed to understand the division between in-game success and real world success.

If prominent people left the company because of internal conflicts about microtransactions I have no such knowledge. If that is true, I would like to know the evidence for it because it would be interesting. Without evidence, it is just speculation.
Before being so quick to dismiss claims, do a little search (http://www.xconomy.com/boston/2009/05/29/will-quick-hit-score-big-behind-the-scenes-with-foxboroughs-newest-team/).

Everything else has been hyperbole and misinformation.
Simply because you state so does not make it true or, rather, simply because you arbitrarily declare that it is, does not make it so.

The simple fact that there are concerns over the implementation and the fact that this is the first time this is done by a professional studio aiming their game at a Western market show that this is not as black and white as you'd like it to be. there are concerns, and they have value.

Your whole argumentation rests on one basis: buying your way out of a challenge is fine.

Interestingly, however, Fernando has clearly stated that raid loot would not be sold in the eStore in about every interview that I have read. It's something he makes very clear, each time. If your premise was true, then Fernando would skip on a a big opportunity right there for now apparent reason. Therefore, something is wrong with your premise unless you are capable of explaining how one is different from the other.

The logic that most posters against the selling some items in the eStore are trying to express, here, is that "selling more stuff from the eStore" does not necessarily lead to "more profits" if it costs you customers. While you don't have a problem with it, personally, does not mean that everyone is the same.

For many, buying your way through a game is the same as the richest guy winning at a board game because he bribed his way through.

A game is a game and real money should not buy your way through it, in any shape or form.

I am no fan-boy but I believe in accuracy, so I choose to participate in this thread to ask for some clarity, calmness, and accuracy in discussing changes.
Cute and touching rhetoric.

[Vallin]

Camus called that "the absurdity of science and history" but that's a bit on an extreme position, if you ask me.

It rejects the value of any past events.

I think you failed to understand the division between in-game success and real world success.

Before being so quick to dismiss claims, do a little search (http://www.xconomy.com/boston/2009/05/29/will-quick-hit-score-big-behind-the-scenes-with-foxboroughs-newest-team/).

Simply because you state so does not make it true or, rather, simply because you arbitrarily declare that it is, does not make it so.

The simple fact that there are concerns over the implementation and the fact that this is the first time this is done by a professional studio aiming their game at a Western market show that this is not as black and white as you'd like it to be. there are concerns, and they have value.

Your whole argumentation rests on one basis: buying your way out of a challenge is fine.

Interestingly, however, Fernando has clearly stated that raid loot would not be sold in the eStore in about every interview that I have read. It's something he makes very clear, each time. If your premise was true, then Fernando would skip on a a big opportunity right there for now apparent reason. Therefore, something is wrong with your premise unless you are capable of explaining how one is different from the other.

The logic that most posters against the selling some items in the eStore are trying to express, here, is that "selling more stuff from the eStore" does not necessarily lead to "more profits" if it costs you customers. While you don't have a problem with it, personally, does not mean that everyone is the same.

For many, buying your way through a game is the same as the richest guy winning at a board game because he bribed his way through.

A game is a game and real money should not buy your way through it, in any shape or form.

Cute and touching rhetoric.

I wasn't dismissive - I just asked for the information. That is an interesting article, but it seems that Turbine is doing exactly what those people who left the company wanted to do. Although it is interesting, I still fail to see what the relevance is. Corporations come to change at different paces. Sometimes people introduce things that don't get implemented right away and sometimes people leave because pace of change is too slow. The fact that there were changes does not indicate that this is any desperation attempt to 'save the game.' That might be true, and sometimes when there is smoke there is indeed fire - but when you look at the fire sometimes it is a house burning down and sometimes it is a really good barbecue. Assuming that the house is burning down is jumping to conclusions that we really don't know.

I have also never said that "buying your way out of a challenge is fine." My point was "How and why is it anyone else's business how people choose to be entertained, particularly if it does not have to impact other people." We can identify that there are some ways that the changes might have some impact on others in PUG situations, but there is still no evidence that should cause anyone to believe that the game is broken, dying, etc.

Also, there is sufficient reason to believe that people can avoid these changes by the simple act of not pressing the store button and playing with others who feel the same way.

I find it quite presumptive of people to claim knowledge about what would or would not lead to a successful business model for this company. Although I personally have some experience with owning and running a business I could never claim to have enough information about the way THIS business operates to come onto a public forum and make statements about what they should be doing. At best, one can assume that they actually have a clue, and given the fact that it is a large company that has a history it is likely that they have applied more front end research and planning into their decisions then most here can ever appreciate. That doesn't insulate them from being wrong, but it should insulate them from the mad rantings of forum trolls who say silly things that have no real basis.

Last point: you bring up the issue of how real money should not allow you to buy your 'winning' of a game. That is a valid concern, but again is solved by choosing to participate in the game with people who share your sense of what rules to use. As for winning or losing - I don't know what to say about that because I never perceived an MMO game to be about winning or losing. There does not seem to be a defined end-point in this game, and it also seems to me that when you are participating in a play activity that does not have a defined end-point that it is not a pure 'game' experience but rather a social/recreational/leisure experience.

This is my perspective, but if I am interested in 'winning' I play chess. If I am interested in social/recreational/leisure activity I play DDO.


Vallin

[Borror0]

My point was "How and why is it anyone else's business how people choose to be entertained, particularly if it does not have to impact other people."
You are incorrectly assuming that it does not impact us. If it didn't, we would not be posting about it.

Clearly, you didn't think that one through.

I find it quite presumptive of people to claim knowledge about what would or would not lead to a successful business model for this company.
Good. I simply wish that people would start thinking like you and stop presuming that RMT of in-game goods will lead to greater profits without proof.

That is a valid concern, but again is solved by choosing to participate in the game with people who share your sense of what rules to use.
No, it's not. You may think it does, but that just means you are wrong and arguing with me just means you are unwilling to accept others may think differently than you. I think I know better than you, since I am thinking about myself.

For us, "participating in the game with people who share your sense of what rules to use" means finding another game.

If I am interested in social/recreational/leisure activity I play DDO.
That's odd. If I am interested in social interaction, I call some friends over.

[Vallin]

You are incorrectly assuming that it does not impact us. If it didn't, we would not be posting about it.

Clearly, you didn't think that one through.

Good. I simply wish that people would start thinking like you and stop presuming that RMT of in-game goods will lead to greater profits without proof.

No, it's not. You may think it does, but that just means you are wrong and arguing with me just means you are unwilling to accept others may think differently than you. I think I know better than you, since I am thinking about myself.

For us, "participating in the game with people who share your sense of what rules to use" means finding another game.

That's odd. If I am interested in social interaction, I call some friends over.

Borror, it is reasonable to assume that Turbine has completed some market research that indicates to them that RMT of in-game goods can lead to greater profits. When you are dealing with a market and product and business the size of Turbine you can assume that they don't flip coins to make choices based on someone's whim about a business model. You are being silly. It is reasonable to believe that they are not making blind presumptions.

Also, there is ample evidence that people are able to form groups and guilds in this game and that those groups and guilds develop rules and shared game methods. Permadeath and role-play are two perfect examples. It is entirely reasonable to believe that a group of people could choose to develop rules about not using the in-game store. It is simply not true that the only way to solve this 'problem' is to find another game.

Your last comment is sad - I don't believe it is odd at all for people to derive social enjoyment and interaction from this game. Perhaps you should consider that ad hominem attacks don't strengthen your arguments.

Vallin

[lobode]

I just want toput my 2cp in.

ITS GAME BREAKING


The Devs will have to code around those guys with infinite budgets to make the quest harder. They make all quest that become too easy in their eyes harder. Adding infinite sp/hp and self rez will make all quest too easy and they will code for it like they always do. I will repeat it again for those that don't get it, they will make the quest harder because some people can blow through everything to easy just like they have done in the past many times. This will affect me and everyone else who does not want to use the store for these items.

If you don't get this, I think you are either a liar and like that you won't have to worry about being banned from buying from plat farmers anymore or you are a marketer for turbine and paid to put to promote this.

IT IS GAME BREAKING

[Visty]

I just want toput my 2cp in.

ITS GAME BREAKING


The Devs will have to code around those guys with infinite budgets to make the quest harder. They make all quest that become too easy in their eyes harder. Adding infinite sp/hp and self rez will make all quest too easy and they will code for it like they always do. I will repeat it again for those that don't get it, they will make the quest harder because some people can blow through everything to easy just like they have done in the past many times. This will affect me and everyone else who does not want to use the store for these items.

If you don't get this, I think you are either a liar and like that you won't have to worry about being banned from buying from plat farmers anymore or you are a marketer for turbine and paid to put to promote this.

IT IS GAME BREAKING

well, lets see how it will turn out
tarrant said that they wont balance the game around the shop, mroe the other way around.
prolly it will just mean that all those noobs found a faster way to cap

[Borror0]

Borror, it is reasonable to assume that Turbine has completed some market research that indicates to them that RMT of in-game goods can lead to greater profits.
When trying to innovate, there is always a risk.

It is simply not true that the only way to solve this 'problem' is to find another game.
Says who?

Your last comment is sad - I don't believe it is odd at all for people to derive social enjoyment and interaction from this game. Perhaps you should consider that ad hominem attacks don't strengthen your arguments.
It wasn't an ad hom, otherwise I would have gone for something more direct.

I was simply pointing out that if social interaction was all that we were concerned of, we would be having a beer/coffee with friend, chatting with IM or VOIP, posting on forums, discussing on YouTube or other mediums who fulfills the need for social interaction better than a video game would.

[Borror0]

tarrant said that they wont balance the game around the shop, mroe the other way around.
The problem with that reasoning is that's what those who say "It's game breaking" are trying to do.

Balancing the eStore for the game, rather than have to balance the game for the eStore.

[lobode]

Borror, it is reasonable to assume that Turbine has completed some market research that indicates to them that RMT of in-game goods can lead to greater profits. When you are dealing with a market and product and business the size of Turbine you can assume that they don't flip coins to make choices based on someone's whim about a business model. You are being silly. It is reasonable to believe that they are not making blind presumptions.
Vallin

I hate it when people say this stuff like companies never make mistakes and that marketing researchers know what they are doing. Look up what SOE did to SWG. I am sure SOE and LA have much larger marketing budgets than turbine and atari and look what they did. Leave the niche market stuff alone and just add content for the few subs you have and create a new product for other markets.

[Borror0]

Leave the niche market stuff alone and just add content for the few subs you have and create a new product for other markets.
Well said.

[Vallin]

Says who?


OK, I really want to understand. What would prevent you from developing a guild or group that has the specific rule that "No one can use the store."

I suppose that you can advance the speculation that the store will have other unintended game impacts related to balancing, etc. - but they would just be speculation at this point in time.

So why state now that there is no other solution than to find another game? Isn't that somewhat extreme given what we currently know?

Vallin

[Delacroix21]

Fine by me. If people want to pay out the nose to make the game easy for themselves go right ahead.


Doesnt effect my fun at all as I wont buy these things (for the most part) and will still be challenged in my game play.

[Visty]

The problem with that reasoning is that's what those who say "It's game breaking" are trying to do.

Balancing the eStore for the game, rather than have to balance the game for the eStore.

thats exactly what i said^^ just in other words (estore<>shop)

[Vallin]

I hate it when people say this stuff like companies never make mistakes and that marketing researchers know what they are doing. Look up what SOE did to SWG. I am sure SOE and LA have much larger marketing budgets than turbine and atari and look what they did. Leave the niche market stuff alone and just add content for the few subs you have and create a new product for other markets.

As I've said, marketing research doesn't insulate anyone from being wrong - but we can reasonably expect that they are trying to make decisions on some real data.

I would like to understand your references but don't know these abbreviations. Can you spell out the things you are referring to please?

[Borror0]

So why state now that there is no other solution than to find another game? Isn't that somewhat extreme given what we currently know?
I have not said that I was looking for other games. I said that if performance can be bought in the eStore, many would be looking for another game.

So why state now that there is no other solution than to find another game?
It has been explained to you. Many players simply don't want to play in a game where players can buy their way through content.

I would like to understand your references but don't know these abbreviations. Can you spell out the things you are referring to please?
Google "Star Wars Galaxy New Game Experience" and you'll find results to go with it.

If that's too inaccurate, you could add "catastrophe" or "subscription loss" to have more precise results.

[Vallin]

I have not said that I was looking for other games. I said that if performance can be bought in the eStore, many would be looking for another game.

It has been explained to you. Many players simply don't want to play in a game where players can buy their way through content.

Google "Star Wars Galaxy New Game Experience" and you'll find results to go with it.

If that's too inaccurate, you could add "catastrophe" or "subscription loss" to have more precise results.

I'll have to look that stuff up - don't know anything about it.

But I still want to know - and you aren't answering the question: What would prevent you from developing a guild or group that has the specific rule that "No one can use the store." It would seem to be a way to address your concern.

Vallin

[Borror0]

It would seem to be a way to address your concern.
I told you that it's not.

[Vallin]

I told you that it's not.

OK, so I state that it seems to be a reasonable workaround, and this is the only response you have?

I have an inquiring mind, and a lot of patience - so please - help me understand why this is not a reasonable workaround for you.

Vallin

[Borror0]

OK, so I state that it seems to be a reasonable workaround, and this is the only response you have?

I have an inquiring mind, and a lot of patience - so please - help me understand why this is not a reasonable workaround for you.
It has been explained to you why it is not.

[Kalari]

Honestly reading this stuff is reminding me of an arugement between children.

Is not game breaking..

Is too game breaking..

Cant we all just agree that whats game breaking to one may not be to others?

Seriously I have been feeling the "Doom" since the no mod 9 in January. I think my posting habits have reflected this. Gone are my pictures and threads of fun and most of the time im in a bad mood. Do I think that alone spells the end of ddo? No but you can hardly ignore that morale for the game is at an all time low.

Now we have to cope with a whole new system full of "buy at our store" free to play which means anyone with the patience for a dl will play the game and even if they find the game appealing what will really make them become vip's like us? They are taking a huge gamble that by giving the game away. Making it easier (wish I could elaborate more but the NDA prevents many of what I saw from being posted here). And turning what used to be the ultimate "Thinkers" game to a copy of every other mmo only with microtransactions too boot.

I can see and understand both sides to the argument. This isnt the first time there have been doom and gloom posts. Heck my first couple of months here before mod 6's release we had a few that had that same attitude. The only difference then was we got mod 6 out then 7 and 8. There was a slight delay but no where as prevalent as this delay has been. And now we are to swallow that the mod weve been clamoring for wont be released till they tweak out a store that many of us feel shouldnt be in the game. I still believe being able to purchase stuff during a quest cheapens the game. Im sure many disagree but I personally know many who also feel this way.

And sure people could form guilds with those rules, but unless your at someones pc and can see what they are doing you dont know if they have used certain things. Unless they get rid of the AH or know the person didnt stock pile every mana pot they could who can tell if that caster who chugged 10 pots during a heated battle didnt just stop by their friendly ddo mart? Like I said the negativity does suck but with nothing but delay and speculation what does turbine expect? People are weary and without spoiling the live experience by beta testing many can only go on what they fear is happening to the game. and what I saw from what little testing I did without spoiling stuff when it goes live im still worried about the games future.

[Raithe]

But I still want to know - and you aren't answering the question: What would prevent you from developing a guild or group that has the specific rule that "No one can use the store." It would seem to be a way to address your concern.


I'll give you a different example (other than permadeath, which doesn't interest me).

At launch, fully half the groups that posted in the LFM window were roleplaying groups. Half is a conservative estimate, and I know because I was there.

Currently, almost no one roleplays unless you call sitting around a table in the Phoenix Tavern roleplaying (which could be done without any game mechanics or rules, just a 3D model of a tavern and avatars). That is because the game itself isn't really designed for roleplaying - you repeat quests, game objectives are simply pieces of loot, and quests are linear with only one ending.

You can't isolate store and non-store users, because everyone has their own idea of what are acceptable practices (which blurs the lines of distinction), and because it becomes impossible to develop a single game that appeals to everyone. Many games try to set up RP, PvP, possibly even Permadeath servers with different rules to keep fractured clientbases.

The strange part about all of this is that there is currently no sizable "pro-store" clientbase. They are completely wagering their game on a playerbase that doesn't even really exist yet. I could give you my suspicions about why they are doing this, but then that would be more speculation and opinion... :rolleyes:.

[Vallin]

It has been explained to you why it is not.

Well you know I really tried to get something out of you that made sense. The closest you have come to answering the question was when you stated "For us, "participating in the game with people who share your sense of what rules to use" means finding another game."

I am not sure how this can be a real conversation because the responses you provide to questions are neither direct or meaningful.

My assertion is that if the store offends your sensibilities then it seems reasonable to form a group that doesn't use the store. If there are game balancing issues regarding the store down the line then obviously that is something that impacts the whole community but we don't know that yet.

I am sorry that you are so dissatisfied, and also sorry that attempts at conversation about your dissatisfaction can't be more productive. The forums are interactively useful if we choose to participate reasonably within them - and as a person who apparently spent time on Wiki things it is amazing that you approach these kinds of topics with a perspective that is unwilling to be modified by anything outside of your own head.

Vallin

[Kalari]

To add some other points since my post above was kinda long.

Before the ddo store unless you had an already capped character that looted a lot when things got hairy you learned to work around it.

When a caster without a lot of funds ran out of mana they learned how to do other things to participate and help their group (unless they were a useless piker) Example most of my girls can use weapons no matter what class due to being elves. Raipers, longswords, crossbows. So when my wizard before learning mana conservation ran out of sp it was not uncommon for her to pull out a weapon. Sure she was not effective as a true melee but at least I didnt stand around finger in bum while the others continued to quest on.

When weapons broke it used to mean something heck there were times it would stump a melee because they lost their weapon or armor. Now theres a chance that this can be nullified (really wish I could elaborate more but nda again) sure they hopefully wont be able to buy extremely magical weapons but trust me the ability to replace weapons is an option..

so yes I can really see EU as a handicapper to people learning to play the game without having a easy button. Sure anyone who paid a plat farmer was in the same boat only difference is those types had to hide who they are for fear of being shamed. Now were basically gonna have a system that celebrates those who can pay for extra stuff to win. Im not liking that not one bit.

[Borror0]

Well you know I really tried to get something out of you that made sense. The closest you have come to answering the question was when you stated "For us, "participating in the game with people who share your sense of what rules to use" means finding another game."

I am not sure how this can be a real conversation because the responses you provide to questions are neither direct or meaningful.
You can't have more direct and meaningful than "It does not solve our problem."

Now, if you want understand the psychology behind, it has been explained to you before. Simply put, being able to bribe the DM to go through challenges is not in our definition of what a game is and if that is implemented, we are not interested in playing such a game. If you don't understand that point of view, that's fine. You don't need to. However, it's still a reality and one that Turbine has to consider.

[...] as a person who apparently spent time on Wiki things it is amazing that you approach these kinds of topics with a perspective that is unwilling to be modified by anything outside of your own head.
Double standards are funny.

Since we both have not changed our mind, I am the only one "with a perspective that is unwilling to be modified by anything outside of your own head", eh?

[Vallin]

You can't isolate store and non-store users, because everyone has their own idea of what are acceptable practices (which blurs the lines of distinction), and because it becomes impossible to develop a single game that appeals to everyone. Many games try to set up RP, PvP, possibly even Permadeath servers with different rules to keep fractured clientbases.

The strange part about all of this is that there is currently no sizable "pro-store" clientbase. They are completely wagering their game on a playerbase that doesn't even really exist yet. I could give you my suspicions about why they are doing this, but then that would be more speculation and opinion... :rolleyes:.

I never played permadeath myself - but imagine that in order to participate 'fairly' in those groups that you have to be honest. I suppose someone could always quest by themselves outside of the group and 'break the rules' and I really don't think there is any way around that.

The strength or even success of any group (permadeath, non-store, whatever) would have to rely on the honesty of its members.

[Borror0]

I never played permadeath myself - but imagine that in order to participate 'fairly' in those groups that you have to be honest.
Honesty has nothing to do with what Raithe said.

He talked about how everyone has their own idea of what are acceptable practices and how it blurs the line. That's nothing to do with honesty.

[Vallin]

You can't have more direct and meaningful than "It does not solve our problem."

Now, if you want understand the psychology behind, it has been explained to you before. Simply put, being able to bribe the DM to go through challenges is not in our definition of what a game is and if that is implemented, we are not interested in playing such a game. If you don't understand that point of view, that's fine. You don't need to. However, it's still a reality and one that Turbine has to consider.

Double standards are funny.

Since we both have not changed our mind, I am the only one "with a perspective that is unwilling to be modified by anything outside of your own head", eh?

I am very willing to change my mind! I just need to understand - if you are in a static group or guild with people who all agree not to 'bribe the DM', how is that not a solution?

Vallin

[Hafeal]

Simply because you state so does not make it true or, rather, simply because you arbitrarily declare that it is, does not make it so.

Love your posts and all but you have been known to do this yourself a time or two. ;)



The logic that most posters against the selling some items in the eStore are trying to express, here, is that "selling more stuff from the eStore" does not necessarily lead to "more profits" if it costs you customers. While you don't have a problem with it, personally, does not mean that everyone is the same.


I agree but it appears Turbine is gambling that f2p will more than outweigh defectors who are upset about the store. Given DDO's lower sub numbers now, it appears they would have more to gain than to lose. Given Turbine's deep pockets, even if they "lose" they can revamp. But given the overall success of other games, particularly children's sites which use micro-transactions (e.g., WebKinz, Club Penguin, Toon Town), a new generation is coming along which will have no problem with the DDO Store.



A game is a game and real money should not buy your way through it, in any shape or form.


In the end, the race is only with yourself.


well, lets see how it will turn out
tarrant said that they wont balance the game around the shop, mroe the other way around.
prolly it will just mean that all those noobs found a faster way to cap

While Tarrant said that, here is a more recent quote that I brought up in another thread which generated little response:


Ten Ton Hammer: Another poster speculated that content difficulty would be adjusted if not in the current content, than in future content. Obviously difficulty is being adjusted downward in current content, but can you give any assurances that you won't adjust the difficulty upward in the future to force players to use store bought consumables?

Fernando Paiz: What we're trying to do is give players options as to what kind of experience they want to get. I think on elite, it's appropriate for something to be really hard - not to drive you to the store necessarily, but to challenge the party. [emphasis added] I think you might see us adding in new difficulty levels or something like that in the future which might be very difficult but there is always a player choice: you want to go for that thing and do you want to try and use store items to attack that thing, or not?

[Borror0]

I am very willing to change my mind! I just need to understand - if you are in a static group or guild with people who all agree not to 'bribe the DM', how is that not a solution?
At that point, why should I keep playing the game?

I mean, I love DDO otherwise I would not be spending so much time on a fansite and trying to develop another one in my free time, on top of posting on the forums, but there are other games beside DDO. If I am going be very picky about who I play with in an MMO, what's the point?

[Borror0]

I agree but it appears Turbine is gambling that f2p will more than outweigh defectors who are upset about the store.
That assumes that those joining will like the idea of buying consumables from the eStore, when there is no proof of that.

Also, this is Sony logic. We all know how well that ended.

But given the overall success of other games, particularly children's sites which use micro-transactions (e.g., WebKinz, Club Penguin, Toon Town), a new generation is coming along which will have no problem with the DDO Store.

I have not played all those games but I know that Club Penguin only offers cosmetic items. That's quite a difference.

[Kalari]

exactly I forgot bout the exclusionary things that will pop up due to this to. Not saying that people dont do this already. I know due to the random bad pugs that when I do play I prefer guild first. But now we will have the potential of us vs them in form of those who will buy their way threw a quest vs those who rather play the way they always have. I dont want to think such separations will come about but its human nature to form cliq mentalities.

Seriously though none of this is helping anything they really need to bring this live so we know for sure. Till then all we can do is debate till it is released and im getting tired of doing that to.

[Vallin]

At that point, why should I keep playing the game?

I mean, I love DDO otherwise I would not be spending so much time on a fansite and trying to develop another one in my free time, on top of posting on the forums, but there are other games beside DDO. If I am going be very picky about who I play with in an MMO, what's the point?

OK, that's fair - you just don't want to have to be that picky about how you choose who to play with when you log onto this game.

I suspect that online MMOs would be a tough genre to participate in if you like or become accustomed to a single way that a game is presented at any given time. From everything I can see, these games change and evolve - it is their very nature.

I still think that workarounds are there - but if you don't want to have to deal with workarounds I don't know what to say. This game, and other MMOs, are going to evolve and change. The only solution I know of is to convince Turbine to release a version that you can put onto a private server and then you can keep your version the way you want it to be for eternity.

Vallin

[Hafeal]

That assumes that those joining will like the idea of buying consumables from the eStore, when there is no proof of that.

Also, this is Sony logic. We all know how well that ended.

I agree - I am just stating I believe this is their thought process. The proof will be in the pudding.


I have not played all those games but I know that Club Penguin only offers cosmetic items. That's quite a difference.

It is to us. To kids who play those games and grow up and move onto games like DDO, the DDO Store is just one more step down a slippery slope.

[Borror0]

OK, that's fair - you just don't want to have to be that picky about how you choose who to play with when you log onto this game.
Oh, I already am picky of who I play with like everybody that plays MMOs. That just another, unnecessary, division in the playerbase.

It's already hard to find a guild that you really fit into. That's just going to make it harder.

I suspect that online MMOs would be a tough genre to participate in if you like or become accustomed to a single way that a game is presented at any given time. From everything I can see, these games change and evolve - it is their very nature.
Discussion with you is very laborious because you see things that are not there in other's text.

There is a difference between being reluctant to change and not wanting my gameplay being harmed by out-of-game aspects (ie money). It's a drastic change from what the game used to be. It will have a clear effect on gameplay, that only compares to the NGE in my opinion.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Well you know I really tried to get something out of you that made sense. The closest you have come to answering the question was when you stated "For us, "participating in the game with people who share your sense of what rules to use" means finding another game."

I am not sure how this can be a real conversation because the responses you provide to questions are neither direct or meaningful.

Oh I totally agree with you about Borro0. Most of us do.

But... I am a straight shooter, and I agree with Borro0 here. Actually I agree with most of what he has said about DDO: Unlimited Wait.

The store in many ways, breaks the game. If they wanted to make money they should sell Tshirts and other DDO related gear. I'd shell out my card for TANGIBLE MERCHANDISE.

[Kalari]

You know because of this debate im half tempted to call up my old DM and long time buddy and ask him seriously.

If we do a campaign would you allow yourself to be paid for stuff like an extra spell for my mage, or a insta rez if we die facing one of your challenges.

After he stops laughing hysterically at the question he may go on a tangent about how cheap that is. so it may be a loong phone call :)

[irivan]

Oh, I already am picky of who I play with like everybody that plays MMOs. That just another, unnecessary, division in the playerbase.

It's already hard to find a guild that you really fit into. That's just going to make it harder.

Discussion with you is very laborious because you see things that are not there in other's text.

There is a difference between being reluctant to change and not wanting my gameplay being harmed by out-of-game aspects (ie money). It's a drastic change from what the game used to be. It will have a clear effect on gameplay, that only compares to the NGE in my opinion.



Nothing is being done here that will destroy your ability to play the game... yes there will be changes... And if you are right, and the game is "Broken" then i guess you will move on? Or you wont, because you will adapt.

Ah yes, adaptation, i've read about scientist who claim this to be our greatest strength as human beings.

Personaly, and for the umpteeth time, i like all of the changes i have encounted so far, and i personally think they align the game closer to PnP, much closer...

Borror0 arguments not just on this thread, but all of the other ones he's posted (you can look through his profile to see them) suggest to me that he does not like PnP, he is obsessed with game balance, there is nothing balanced about any of the DnD editions that i have read, including what i have read in 4E, he will swear that if you read page 13 of a DMG, assuming he means the 3.5 DMG that you will see DnD recomending game balance, while true they never meant changing the core structure of the game or altering their classes, or taking away from that...I have always interepreted this interpretable part of the book to mean that you as the DM use the tools at hand to make games more difficult or less, or more creative or less, dependent on the strength of those under your DM'ing charge(utilizing puzzles, foils, changing mob size and strength, etc)

He believes the store being added to the game imbalances it, and thus breaks it, i disagree, i think it only enables all of those things you should have in DnD, in an indirect way that this game always should have had...

See some times the more you balance "video game's" to be inline with some sort of wierd need to have everything in alignment, the more the game it is becomes distorted and no longer the game it was based on to begin with, so the store brings the game back to a certain point of its origin with the things it provides

There is of course a lot more to this that could be discussed directly and more specifically but this is not the proper place for this thread any way.

lastly folks are masquerading around with "this is just opinion"

No it is not, you are placing emphasis on your opinions like they are certain to become fact, that is what makes them totally hyperbolic in nature, you are on a campaign like Fox News, "we're fair and balanced", while you are busy trying to convince everyone of a certain position behind the scenes or other hyperbolic forms of proof.

you havent sold me, or most of the populace with this non sense yet.

and you are not going to either...

And if it is just an opinion, why do you continue to seek out thread after thread, to make your case

You have already been heard, you opinion is out there, good for you, time to move on.

You are fretting because opposing opinion is opposing you and will continue to discredit your hyperbole until the new mod luanches

So can we at least agree that all of what you are posting is not indeed fact?

Whether you agree or not, or provide the political answer it still wont be fact, and nothing you say can change that "fact".

[Dark_Helmet]

Well, it is not true that when something has happened before it is destined to happen again. I understand that you claim previous experience but that has no bearing on this situation. This is faulty thinking.

re: deviation from 3.5 - valid points, but again, if purity is your concern I think we can all agree that DDO is not the game for you. This is decidedly not a pure D&D experience and if you are looking for it to be you will get disappointed.

I am no fan-boy but I believe in accuracy, so I choose to participate in this thread to ask for some clarity, calmness, and accuracy in discussing changes.

Vallin

All insults about me making stuff up removed. I left the faulty thinking one since it is really insulting to the philosphy of numerous famous people in history and shows how absurd your mind is.


So, to show some past history of Turbine:

Turbine made something called Asheron's Call (which is still running today).
Then, they made something called Asheron's Call 2 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asheron's_Call_2)


On August 25, 2005 it was announced by Turbine CEO Jeff Anderson that the Asheron's Call 2 service would be shut down on December 30, 2005, and no additional content updates were planned. This was a reaction to tepid sales of the Legions expansion pack, which failed to boost the number of subscription past the critical threshold of 35,000. Fans were highly critical of this reaction, blaming lack of sales on a poorly coordinated marketing campaign and an insufficient retail presence. Producer Citan (Eric Heimburg) moved on to the Star Trek Online project, whereas most other team members transferred to the Dungeons & Dragons Online and The Lord of the Rings Online projects at Turbine.

Criticism of Asheron's Call 2 had always been particularly vocal from many Asheron's Call players, who were frustrated by the radical changes in gameplay dynamics and the game world, claiming that AC2 was a sequel in name only. The fact that AC2 would be different from AC1 was stated from the initial releases on it, but many AC1 players were not happy with the sequel and stayed with the original game. This may have been a factor in AC2's disappointing subscription numbers

So, based on their past history, they are making changes to a game advertised as D&D 3.5 (some would say radical changes) without input from their current customers. In beta, changes being implemented after being written and are just being tweaked (some of the very same people who did AC2 and didn't listen to their customer base). If they truly valued their customer's opinion, they would bring up the ideas of the changes before implementation and ask for feedback.

In this case, instead of creating a DDO2 and leaving the people in DDO1, they are taking everyone to a new world. I just hope it doesn't collapse (the loss of older players exceeding the new ones). I know of a lot of players who would still be playing if they were spending their time creating content instead of destroying it.

Yes, not pure 3.5, but instead of just creating more content, they are changing the rules even more. At some point, if you deviate so far from the rules, why call it 3.5? At what point does it become false advertising? Right now, you see the people who say it is misleading to call it F2P when not all content is available to F2P. So, you don't think all the 3.5 players will see the released version and not gripe how it is not 3.5?



So yes, I can be a pessimist in this case:
I touch a hot stove, I get burned. When I see the same hot stove , I can't help but think I will be burned again. I guess you get burned all the time as you will not learn from the past.

You can be as stubborn as Borror0 :p so I think I have wasted enough time responding to your post.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Then, they made something called Asheron's Call 2 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asheron%27s_Call_2)


Your last post was unreadable. your thoughts all over the map.

The one point you DID make that was valid is this one. Asherons Call 2 is Turbine's biggest black eye to date.

However the unlimited wait of this most recent MOD, along with the across the board changes is very bad for Turbine. They keep punching themselves in the eyes. I dont think the changes, as good as many of them are (lots of small changes many will like) will be nearly enough for the veteran playerbase. The store is NOT positive in its current state.

The "items" sold make this a NEW DDO, that is unarguable. Weather you are for or against the store... the store makes DDO a new game.

And in the history of RPGs, that's a very very bad situation.

[Borror0]

The "items" sold make this a NEW DDO, that is unarguable. Weather you are for or against the store... the store makes DDO a new game.

And in the history of RPGs, that's a very very bad situation.
Exactly, and what's sad about this is that it does not have to be.

Kate and Fernando repeated hundreds of time D&D was a typical example of microtransaction and that DDO was built perfectly for RMT. By being so instanced, Turbine can sell access to dungeons quite easily and thus offer a more flexible model for those who don't play enough to warrant the $15/month. This, alone, should increase the revenues for Turbine.

That's a minor change for the players. It has almost no effect on gameplay and no one in their right mind would oppose.

Our problem is with those items that they want to sell in the eStore. While I see the attractiveness of doing so, it's a big change on gameplay no matter how you look at it. The high accessibility of powerful consumables had already a questionable effect on gameplay.

It certainly represents a huge change. A new DDO, as you call it and we all know that has never led to a brilliant success for any MMO.

I am hopeful, generally speaking, for the future of DDO but that is one thing they have to reconsider.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Exactly, and what's sad about this is that it does not have to be.

Kate and Fernando repeated hundreds of time D&D was a typical example of microtransaction and that DDO was built perfectly for RMT. By being so instanced, Turbine can sell access to dungeons quite easily and thus offer a more flexible model for those who don't play enough to warrant the $15/month. This, alone, should increase the revenues for Turbine.

That's a minor change for the players. It has almost no effect on gameplay and no one in their right mind would oppose.

Our problem is with those items that they want to sell in the eStore. While I see the attractiveness of doing so, it's a big change on gameplay no matter how you look at it. The high accessibility of powerful consumables had already a questionable effect on gameplay.

It certainly represents a huge change. A new DDO, as you call it and we all know that has never led to a brilliant success for any MMO.

I am hopeful, generally speaking, for the future of DDO but that is one thing they have to reconsider.

Borro0 you dont need me telling you we have disagreed on much, but on this one topic you are spot on. I cant find a negative to nail you on here because there is none.

Turbine, you have failed the veteran playerbase with "Mod 9". The "rollout" for mod 9 is how many months now?

There is no way this store, in its current state, should remain. Ditch the entire store... and the concept behind it.. or just sell tangeable merchandide in it. I think you would sell more merch than you think.

The concepts of buying your way through and out of quests IS GAME BREAKING. It is NOT D&D in any way imagineable.

[Quanefel]

snip

Agreed. Consider this though. It has always been on my mind since day one of all of this is that if this new DDO2 fails...we have no DDO1 to fall back on. If it fails, it's over. No fallback plan here.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Agreed. Consider this though. It has always been on my mind since day one of all of this is that if this new DDO2 fails...we have no DDO1 to fall back on. If it fails, it's over. No fallback plan here.

Quan, it already is over. We have what, 15% left of us that started in beta/headstart?

Think about it.

WHERE is this MASSIVE ADVERTISING BLITZ that was promised?

[Kylani]

Your last post was unreadable. your thoughts all over the map.

The one point you DID make that was valid is this one. Asherons Call 2 is Turbine's biggest black eye to date.

However the unlimited wait of this most recent MOD, along with the across the board changes is very bad for Turbine. They keep punching themselves in the eyes. I dont think the changes, as good as many of them are (lots of small changes many will like) will be nearly enough for the veteran playerbase. The store is NOT positive in its current state.

The "items" sold make this a NEW DDO, that is unarguable. Weather you are for or against the store... the store makes DDO a new game.

And in the history of RPGs, that's a very very bad situation.

The difference is, in Asheron's Call 2, the fans had the option of still playing Asheron's Call. People not wanting to change period, as has been highly evidenced here, would be a stumbling block to begin with. At least DDO won't have that hurdle.

The store will change the game, but comments/fear that all new players will be unskilled people who don't care about playing the game but just want to spend all their money to buy a 'sword of all truths' to win the game and thus be more uber than all the veteran DDO players is overkill.

For whatever reasons, Turbine has decided to go this way, and if people want DDO to keep going in some form, they need to stop fearing what 'might' happen and start suggesting logical compromise.

If self-resurrection cakes seem too cheap, that can be a legitimate issue, but saying get rid of the store altogether isn't a solution.

What exactly is different about using a rez cake than leaving a dungeon and running back? Is it purely convenience of not having to run to an Inn, refill hp and mp, and get back to where you were? I haven't used a rez cake. Do you get full hp and mp back when you use a rez cake like you do with running back (this is a rhetorical question, please don't answer since this is a non-beta board).

I haven't ever run into a dungeon where I couldn't leave and go back to rez others. Are there dungeons where you can't leave and get back to the party, so rez cakes change those dungeons?

Is it because you don't suffer the same penalty for leaving when you use a rez cake? If so, would attaching the same penalty for using a rez cake make it a 'good' item for the store.

[Quanefel]

Quan, it already is over. We have what, 15% left of us that started in beta/headstart?

Think about it.

WHERE is this MASSIVE ADVERTISING BLITZ that was promised?

As long as we still have some fight left in us, it aint over yet. ;)

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

they need to stop fearing what 'might' happen and start suggesting logical compromise.

Logical comprimise: start selling tangible merchandise in the store, or eliminating the in game sore entirely. selling quest completions is not D&D.


If self-resurrection cakes seem too cheap, that can be a legitimate issue, but saying get rid of the store altogether isn't a solution.

Why is getting rid of TurbineBay.com .. err... I mean the e-store... not a solution. This IS game altering and in my sole opinion horrible for this game.



would attaching the same penalty for using a rez cake make it a 'good' item for the store.

No.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

As long as we still have some fight left in us, it aint over yet. ;)

True dat. Still got fight. But I'm rather bored. And those of us that have PLAYED GAMES that have failed are telling those who havent... we see this coming... and we have for some time.

But, I see DDO as fixable. Like Borro0 said... is sad.

[Kylani]

Logical comprimise: start selling tangible merchandise in the store, or eliminating the in game sore entirely. selling quest completions is not D&D.



Why is getting rid of TurbineBay.com .. err... I mean the e-store... not a solution. This IS game altering and in my sole opinion horrible for this game.




No.

Why is a rez cake selling completions? You don't answer questions, you just say that it is so. Why is it so? Can you not leave a dungeon now, and come back and complete?

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Why is a rez cake selling completions?

Stop.

If you can BUY an item to allow a COMPLETION, then Turbine is SELLING completions.

There are MANY situations that currently it is impossible or undesirable to res back at a bar in the middle of a quest/raid.

The mere concept of BUYING quest completions is disgusting. Many ARE and will continue to feel this is game breaking... and has nothing to do with D&D.

[Girevik]

Will the items sold in the store make finishing some missions easier? Yes, undoubtedly.

But, I can guarantee you, they will not be the biggest "easy button" in the game. The biggest "easy button" is one that many of the so called "purists" push repeatedly. That is entering a quest where one of the players in the party has done the quest before.

If I only play quests "in the dark", but you mostly play the SAME QUESTS night after night, do you really think the game will be "too easy" if I can buy a mana potion?

[Kylani]

Stop.

If you can BUY an item to allow a COMPLETION, then Turbine is SELLING completions.

There are MANY situations that currently it is impossible or undesirable to res back at a bar in the middle of a quest/raid.

The mere concept of BUYING quest completions is disgusting. Many ARE and will continue to feel this is game breaking... and has nothing to do with D&D.

Stop what? Asking for information and constructive comments? You may be used to stomping your foot and throwing a tantrum to get what you want, but I doubt your acting like a two year old is going to make Turbine say, 'Gee, he's mad. We made a mistake and will go back to a model that isn't working for us'.

They made the decision for a reason. If it doesn't work, the game may go under, but they obviously felt like a change was needed. They could just as easily have cut their losses and spent the money elsewhere vs trying to revitalize DDO.

If you don't want to even consider a store, fine. I feel for your loss, but for those who enjoy DDO and would like to see it work, we should be able to discuss it constructively so that legitimate issues might be addressed.

I doubt you really want to discuss any issue, but if there are places that are impossible to get back to by design, perhaps they could make rez cakes unusable in these places/situations. They've already said the store won't be available in raids.

[Borror0]

They made the decision for a reason. If it doesn't work, the game may go under, but they obviously felt like a change was needed.
The freemium model is already a change.

I doubt you really want to discuss any issue, but if there are places that are impossible to get back to by design, perhaps they could make rez cakes unusable in these places/situations. They've already said the store won't be available in raids.
This assumes that wiping and re-entering is good. I disagree.

[Kylani]

The freemium model is already a change.

This assumes that wiping and re-entering is good. I disagree.

It has NOTHING to do with the store about whether it's good or not. People do it NOW, people have done it for years.

You have an agenda that is more to changing the game as it exists now vs trying to discuss the store. I'm not going to waste time debating with you, when your arguments are always that everything is wrong now. I honestly don't know why you even play the game if you hate so much about it.

[Dark_Helmet]

Your last post was unreadable. your thoughts all over the map.


Sorry, I had it all typed out and the post got eaten - twice. I was responding to someone who doesn't know that past history can certainly make some outcomes more likely. I tried to emphasize it was my opinion, but that was lost on them.

My point:
Some of the same people who made the AC2 fiasco are doing the DDO "make-over".
Since they are introducing changes too far down the development cycle before asking opinion/feedback , I think it is a failure in their development cycle that will make DDO2 less successful.


I have made my constructive criticism posts before:
1) Any store should just sell cosmetic changes (nothing to be used to give one person an advantage over another) and content for the F2P members who don't have access.

2) Quit going further away from 3.5 rules. The argument for one rule change is that it is required based on feedback, when we can plainly see it really acts as a "nerf" for higher level characters (whether by design or not). If it was a 3.5 rule, I wouldn't have such a big problem with it, but there are a lot more ways to improve the game within the 3.5 ruleset. Also, by making changes to look more and more like other MMOs will reduce the uniqueness of this 3.5 world. If I wanted it to look like XXX MMO, I would play that MMO.

3) Quit talking out of both sides of their mouth:
A) They say this is 3.5 and they are not going to 4.0.
B) A dev posted that the above change is more like the way D&D is going (4.0).

4) Concentrate on more content itself and less re-working rules. I know a lot of people who left purely based on the lack of content. I can not recall, in 3 years, someone leaving because "It is too hard to hit things" (just the usualy doom threads about individually hard monsters). Really, that type of player who needs immediate feedback of damage at each swing is going to play an XBox game and not shell out the money.


Finally, I was going to use this weekend to conduct my own poll of D&D players about the penetration of DDO into the faithful at a convention but other duties prevent me :mad:. Therefore, I am grumpy (yeah what else is new?) ;)

[Dark_Helmet]

Why is a rez cake selling completions? You don't answer questions, you just say that it is so. Why is it so? Can you not leave a dungeon now, and come back and complete?

Not all dungeons can be re-entered in the place you can use those cakes (behind closed gates, blue barriers).

For all quests, by rezzing out and running back you have both an XP penalty as well as a time sink as your "punishment". This is the easy button as you can immediately rez (and re-supply if needed).
It kind of goes back to the arguement where people don't want to swing at monsters for so long. If I am ultra powerful, why not just skip straight to the chest?


Having the chance of failure is what provides some excitement into the game for a lot of players. The "easy button" reduces this "thrill". If you think a change that people can "ignore" and play their own way doesn't affect the game then why do they make changes such as nerfing wounding of puncturing? It is a change that really only affects those who have the items and people can just group with others who don't have them. Because in a game where you can group with anyone, any changes affect everyone.

The question is how big of an impact is that particular change?

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

If you don't want to even consider a store, fine. I feel for your loss, but for those who enjoy DDO and would like to see it work, we should be able to discuss it constructively....

I doubt you really want to discuss any issue,

So you want to discuss... OK. Here are some problems with the store. Its important to remember most people leave games like DDO because of drastic changes to gameplay and concept behind those changes. People start leaving at the CONCEPT OF CHANGE... just like many DDO veterans have already left... Here are some easy to think of concepts:

1. UNLIMITED ZERGING and POOR PLAY. Why even worry about staying with your party or a cleric if you can BUY YOURSELF "free lives". You are on the other end of the dungeon, no worries, call 1-800-ZergAlot. For the rich, I equate this with Economic God Mode. This is a ridiculous concept.. but you watch people abuse it this way.

2. Game loses its challenge. Soloing loses its challenge. If everyone can raise themselves, losing a quest equates to "How much we can AFFORD to keep the quest alive."

(Geese next time I DM a campaign Im going to ask everyone to bring their credit card.)

3. Clerics might as well start charging for raise dead/res scrolls and other healing. Why does Turbine get to make money on healing but not us? Buying Turbine Free Lives cheapen the whole healing/raise methods in DDO and alters the way we've healed in D&D for years.

Dont think Im going to let you get away with your "concept" Are you seriously tying the Turbine e-store to the survivability of DDO? As in if theres no store, theres no more DDO??

Of course most of us want to see DDO succeed. But the CREATION of a DDO e-store will not allow DDO to survive ONE EXTRA DAY.

[Vallin]

Quan, it already is over. We have what, 15% left of us that started in beta/headstart?

Think about it.

WHERE is this MASSIVE ADVERTISING BLITZ that was promised?


Oh its already over?! I am so glad that you told me. I wouldn't have noticed otherwise. Every time that I log in there is a game there, but now I know I have been hallucinating. But wait - if it is already over, why are you posting on the forums of a game that doesn't exist?? I am so confused!

And here are more statistics for us. I wonder where these came from?

What a funny thread!

Vallin

[bandyman1]

Oh its already over?! I am so glad that you told me. I wouldn't have noticed otherwise. Every time that I log in there is a game there, but now I know I have been hallucinating. But wait - if it is already over, why are you posting on the forums of a game that doesn't exist?? I am so confused!

And here are more statistics for us. I wonder where these came from?

What a funny thread!

Vallin

Yeah!!! You tell him Vallin!!!

How dare anyone even suggest that pop is declining!!! The entire 90,000+ subs that the game started with are all still here playing the game!!!! There was never a reason to decrease the amount of servers, because everyone is still here playing, it's just that Turbine thought that the lag would add challenge!!!! Hell; We get 9000 new subs every day!!! DDO is the most successful game ever!!! It makes more revenue than WoW and LotRO combined!!! This has never been a niche game, that is really only played by those who enjoy it's differences. WHY ARE YOU SO NEGATIVE!???!




:rolleyes:

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

yeah!!! You Tell Him Vallin!!!

How Dare Anyone Even Suggest That Pop Is Declining!!! The Entire 90,000+ Subs That The Game Started With Are All Still Here Playing The Game!!!! There Was Never A Reason To Decrease The Amount Of Servers, Because Everyone Is Still Here Playing, It's Just That Turbine Thought That The Lag Would Add Challenge!!!! Hell; We Get 9000 New Subs Every Day!!! Ddo Is The Most Successful Game Ever!!! It Makes More Revenue Than Wow And Lotro Combined!!! This Has Never Been A Niche Game, That Is Really Only Played By Those Who Enjoy It's Differences. Why Are You So Negative!???!:rolleyes:

Rotflmao!

[Vallin]

Yeah!!! You tell him Vallin!!!

How dare anyone even suggest that pop is declining!!! The entire 90,000+ subs that the game started with are all still here playing the game!!!! There was never a reason to decrease the amount of servers, because everyone is still here playing, it's just that Turbine thought that the lag would add challenge!!!! Hell; We get 9000 new subs every day!!! DDO is the most successful game ever!!! It makes more revenue than WoW and LotRO combined!!! This has never been a niche game, that is really only played by those who enjoy it's differences. WHY ARE YOU SO NEGATIVE!???!

:rolleyes:


This thread is drama-rama of Khyberian proportions:

Actor 1: "Consider this though. It has always been on my mind since day one of all of this is that if this new DDO2 fails...we have no DDO1 to fall back on. If it fails, it's over. No fallback plan here."

Actor 2: "It already is over. We have what, 15% left of us that started in beta/headstart? Think about it."

Actor 1: "As long as we still have some fight left in us, it aint over yet."

Roll your eyes all your want - this is just hilarious. If you want to see how this scene plays on film, check this out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Xm1XErUvXo

Vallin

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

If you want to see how this scene plays on film, check this out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Xm1XErUvXo

Oooooohh, so now you are comparing what many of us feel about the current and future state of DDO to... movie scripts?

http://www.filmdope.com/Gallery/ActorsP/13696.gif
In Joe Pesci's great comedic voice: "Ok ok Ok!! Lemmie tell you what movie script you remind me of Vallin! Ok Ok Ok?"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJ6VT7ciR1o

[Yargore]

They've already said the store won't be available in raids.

If the self ressurection won't work in raids, I don't really see the problem here.
In more or less every quest you can release and reenter, it's the same thing really.
If people want to pay for not having to run back to the quest, why can't they?
There is nothing gamebreaking about it.

[Vallin]

Oooooohh, so now you are comparing what many of us feel about the current and future state of DDO to... movie scripts?

http://www.filmdope.com/Gallery/ActorsP/13696.gif
In Joe Pesci's great comedic voice: "Ok ok Ok!! Lemmie tell you what movie script you remind me of Vallin! Ok Ok Ok?"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJ6VT7ciR1o


Um, ok. That makes sense.

[bandyman1]

This thread is drama-rama of Khyberian proportions:

Actor 1: "Consider this though. It has always been on my mind since day one of all of this is that if this new DDO2 fails...we have no DDO1 to fall back on. If it fails, it's over. No fallback plan here."

Actor 2: "It already is over. We have what, 15% left of us that started in beta/headstart? Think about it."

Actor 1: "As long as we still have some fight left in us, it aint over yet."

Roll your eyes all your want - this is just hilarious. If you want to see how this scene plays on film, check this out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Xm1XErUvXo

Vallin

Naw bro.

What's hilarious is people like you with your hands over your ears, stomping your foot and yelling " There is no problem!!! " at the top of your lungs.

This is pretty much a last ditch effort for Turbine to save DDO. If it fails, I'm pretty sure it's " game over ".

Do I want the game to succeed? Absolutely.

I just think Turbine is going about it the wrong way, by alienating those that have actually supported their product for 3+ years, on the hope that new players will actually sub to the game in sufficient numbers to offset those they lose + some.

[Vallin]

Naw bro.

What's hilarious is people like you with your hands over your ears, stomping your foot and yelling " There is no problem!!! " at the top of your lungs.

This is pretty much a last ditch effort for Turbine to save DDO. If it fails, I'm pretty sure it's " game over ".

Do I want the game to succeed? Absolutely.

I just think Turbine is going about it the wrong way, by alienating those that have actually supported their product for 3+ years, on the hope that new players will actually sub to the game in sufficient numbers to offset those they lose + some.

Listen, even Zork came to its end. Games have natural lives. I expect that most here will outlive the game. We will all survive, somehow.

I never said there weren't problems - I am just pointing out that solutions aren't advanced by DRAMA AND DOOM!!1!

Vallin

[bandyman1]

I never said there weren't problems - I am just pointing out that solutions aren't advanced by DRAMA AND DOOM!!1!
Vallin

Solutions aren't advanced by ****ing off those who've stuck by you for 3 years either.

Take notes Kate; Please take freaking notes.

[Vallin]

Solutions aren't advanced by ****ing off those who've stuck by you for 3 years either.

Take notes Kate; Please take freaking notes.


You may have a valid point here to some degree, but since it is the day of video references to help people understand what they sound like I will leave you with this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSYV-nEE300

Vallin

[Borror0]

I never said there weren't problems - I am just pointing out that solutions aren't advanced by DRAMA AND DOOM!!1!
Oh, so instead of debating their points you simply debate their tone? Way to go!

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Listen, even Zork came to its end.

Ok if ANYBODY can talk about Zork it would be me, Frobozz. After all... I named my 1st drow wizard in that fantastic game's honor, back in '06.

Infocom has gone down as one of the greatest game developers of all time. They were pioneers. Without their visions, much of the porting of D&D to the computer world would have taken place at a later time and in different ways... Infocom showed em all how its supposed to be done. The Zork Great Underground Empire filled many a gamers' minds for decades.

Turbine has done many great things too. But their history isnt nearly as verbose as Infocom. I see people like Borro0 and Bandy and dozens of founding members like myself trying to explain to Turbine to stop the bleeding. We already know the e-store isnt for US. We can see its nothing more than a BUSINESS PLAN for them.

The game as it stands now is great. What we need we HAVE been vocalizing.. no voice has been louder than the voices that have asked for "more content." We can use a general sprucing up across the board. We got both in "Mod 9". The lamania game feels fresh and snappy. Give us a HUGE marketing and advertizing blitz as was promised and release this puppy NOW. Done and Done.

There is no need for an e-store in addition to this. It will be the straw that breaks the camels back for many a veteran. Remember, changing our gameplay this drastically AFTER making us wait almost a year for a new Mod is NOT a great combination.

Oh, and still no mod. Every day that passes is another day we lose a veteran player. I hear the chatter every day in game. People are bored. They have left in droves.

"Thats not Kansas, Dorothy", thats fact.

[Vallin]

We can see its nothing more than a BUSINESS PLAN for them.



Seriously, why would you think it was anything other than a BUSINESS PLAN for them?

Other than that, just the addition of content doesn't solve anything - that is just too simplistic an answer. If they add new content, people will gain 'experience points' and then expect to 'level' their characters. They will want their characters to become more powerful. They will want their characters to find new magical items. That will lead to balance issues and they have to find ways to manage an increasingly complex game world.

It seems that the history of this game is that they already added a lot of content over the last couple years and one could reasonably surmise that the act of adding content has not been as successful as they want it to be or as successful as they believe it can be. So they are changing and evolving the game. Actually, people expect and demand that of Turbine - at least based on reading these forums.

Then, with every change and evolution there are people who come onto the forums and begin proclaiming that these are the End Times. I don't know why it is so hard for people to actually try the changes before proclaiming that the game is broken - game over! - now they are stealing kids lunch money! - and so on.

You will hear no argument from me about how challenging the long wait has been. If I hadn't spent so much time playing I would have said it wasn't worth my sub fee - but I find that I have to shut my mouth because despite the lack of new content I still logged on and capped a bunch of new characters and tried new races and classes.

People can always vote with their subscriptions. That is their ultimate right. I don't doubt that people have left - but there is an equally convincing argument that a lot of people are sticking around because it is still fun while we have been waiting.

Vallin

[Borror0]

People can always vote with their subscriptions. That is their ultimate right. I don't doubt that people have left - but there is an equally convincing argument that a lot of people are sticking around because it is still fun while we have been waiting.
I would bet that a lot of us were tricked into the "Oh, Module 9 is not that far away" that we've been repeatedly told and figured that it was not worth losing the $10/month deal simply because it would be released in a month or two later rather than simply because we are still entertained by the current end game.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

I don't doubt that many people have left - but there is a badly concieved argument that some people are sticking around because it is still fun while we have been waiting.

Fixed that for you.

Many more have left than hung around. I have screen shots of my 1st full friends list in 06-07 and its embarrassing how many have left. The reasons they have left for the most part is the same..... they were bored.

As for doom talk. You can research my posts... I've spoken very little of negativity and doom of DDO. In fact I have defended it. I HAVE had to say goodbye to too many great players though.

I will not change my mind about the estore. Stock that sucka with some fun stuff (like cosmetic changes of our toons and gear, etc) or eliminate it all together. A compromise could be to simply take out certain items that alter the WAY the game is played... aka the EASY buttons.

[Borror0]

A compromise could be to simply take out certain items that alter the WAY the game is played... aka the EASY buttons.
I would say that this is what 99% of the anti-eStore are aiming for.

[Vallin]

I would bet that a lot of us were tricked into the "Oh, Module 9 is not that far away" that we've been repeatedly told and figured that it was not worth losing the $10/month deal simply because it would be released in a month or two later rather than simply because we are still entertained by the current end game.

Could be. But as I indicated I find myself in a difficult position where I can't complain based on my own usage and enjoyment despite the wait.

So if people calculate their entertainment hours based on the sub fee, and find that they logged in and played/enjoyed many hours despite the fact that there was no new content - do they have a right to complain?

If people did not obtain value out of what they paid for then that is their problem. I also personally think that if someone's budget is broken over a $10 vs. $15 per month sub fee then they shouldn't be wasting their money on subscription fee video games.

Vallin

[Borror0]

I also personally think that if someone's budget is broken over a $10 vs. $15 per month sub fee then they shouldn't be wasting their money on subscription fee video games.
Do you know what the $10/months entails or you're just talking about something you don't know of again?

[Vallin]

Do you know what the $10/months entails or you're just talking about something you don't know of again?

What difference is it to me what your pricing plan is? Whatever the plan is that you are signed up under - if it is not worth it to you then you are stupid to pay.

I pay the fee I pay because it is worth it, to me. You should do what is worth it, to you. Not complicated at all.

Vallin

[Borror0]

What difference is it to me what your pricing plan is? Whatever the plan is that you are signed up under - if it is not worth it to you then you are stupid to pay.
Before you talk about something, make sure you know about it.

The plan is that you pay for 6 months but you pay $10/month. Thus, you save $60/year. Overall, it's a nice deal. In this case, a lot of people on that deal made a calculation of cost/gain. Since the the plan saves $30 over six months, it means that even if you don't play for two months it's still cheaper. Thus, if you found it hard to believe that Module 9 would be released in July, the logical choice was to keep paying!

Note that even in the event that module 9 was released after, if you planned to keep paying for another six months after, staying was still more rewarding.

[Quanefel]

What difference is it to me what your pricing plan is? Whatever the plan is that you are signed up under - if it is not worth it to you then you are stupid to pay.

I pay the fee I pay because it is worth it, to me. You should do what is worth it, to you. Not complicated at all.

Vallin

Tell that to all the people who were mislead into thinking mod 9 was going to be coming out soon, months ago.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

tell That To All The People Who Were Mislead Into Thinking Mod 9 Was Going To Be Coming Out Soon, Months Ago.

Qft.

[Vallin]

Before you talk about something, make sure you know about it.

The plan is that you pay for 6 months but you pay $10/month. Thus, you save $60/year. Overall, it's a nice deal. In this case, a lot of people on that deal made a calculation of cost/gain. Since the the plan saves $30 over six months, it means that even if you don't play for two months it's still cheaper. Thus, if you found it hard to believe that Module 9 would be released in July, the logical choice was to keep paying!

Note that even in the event that module 9 was released after, if you planned to keep paying for another six months after, staying was still more rewarding.

Although I can't speak for anyone else, it has seemed abundantly clear to me that there have been no guarantees on release dates for anything for this game in a long time. In fact, all the evidence points to the fact that things probably will never get released when they say they are going to. This pattern goes back for nearly as long as I have been subscribing.

Anyone tripped up by trying to squeeze savings out of this game is delusional. I recommend looking at the fee structure overall and seeing if it is worth it to you, absent of any wish or desire that content will be released at any given time. That is simply the way it is right now - and takes you back to the basic value question of whether or not it is worth it, for you.

There is nothing wrong with penny pinching in general and it is a fine strategy, but if you are trying to do it in a context where there is a history of slow deliverables then you are just setting yourself up for disappointment.

So actually I know plenty - and apparently more than you - because at least I have been measuring my value on what Turbine actually delivered as opposed to my own fantasies of what I hoped would be delivered.

You have a right to criticize Turbine for how they deliver product, but face facts: you have been stupid enough to pay for it while expecting something other than what was delivered. I have held no such delusions.

Vallin

[Borror0]

You have a right to criticize Turbine for how they deliver product, but face facts: you have been stupid enough to pay for it while expecting something other than what was delivered. I have held no such delusions.
Nice red herring. This has never been the point I was making.

[Kalari]

So your saying its the players fault for being misled into thinking a mod was going to be dropped way sooner. The lack of the communication save (vast and mysterious and the wait will be worth it) The telling us tid bits during the March Mayhem thing that convinced several people to Lock in their subscriptions because Obviously Turbine had our backs an pumped us up to take them to number 1. Is our fault for doing so? So were to break our agreements and leave which last I checked you cant really do no refunds. or have a subscription that is paid till the fall for most and just not play? They are getting the money either way but were supposed to just bend over and take it?

Now as much as some of us may like things like that (im using candor now dont get your uptight panties in a bunch). Seriously I dont blame anyone who feels "hey I paid for 6 months ahead of time, Turbine got that money isnt giving it back and this is a big arse rip."

Anyone who can tell a player in that situation that "its their fault" amazes me. its like having a person pay for a 2 year no refundable gym membership, the gym is freaking crappy half the time the equipment is used and sweaty and no one really wants to be there but they got hundreds of your dollars in an contract that the big muscly guy talked you into with a free bag and water bottle and fast lingo. Now your stuck cause your not getting your dough back so you may as well lump it out since hey at least your getting exercise..

Point blank as long as Turbine has the customers money and as long as they are not refunding those who subscribed ahead of times money back damned right they have a right to be ticked off and even more a right to complain in the forums.

[Quanefel]

So your saying its the players fault for being misled into thinking a mod was going to be dropped way sooner. The lack of the communication save (vast and mysterious and the wait will be worth it) The telling us tid bits during the March Mayhem thing that convinced several people to Lock in their subscriptions because Obviously Turbine had our backs an pumped us up to take them to number 1. Is our fault for doing so? So were to break our agreements and leave which last I checked you cant really do no refunds. or have a subscription that is paid till the fall for most and just not play? They are getting the money either way but were supposed to just bend over and take it?

Now as much as some of us may like things like that (im using candor now dont get your uptight panties in a bunch). Seriously I dont blame anyone who feels "hey I paid for 6 months ahead of time, Turbine got that money isnt giving it back and this is a big arse rip."

Anyone who can tell a player in that situation that "its their fault" amazes me. its like having a person pay for a 2 year no refundable gym membership, the gym is freaking crappy half the time the equipment is used and sweaty and no one really wants to be there but they got hundreds of your dollars in an contract that the big muscly guy talked you into with a free bag and water bottle and fast lingo. Now your stuck cause your not getting your dough back so you may as well lump it out since hey at least your getting exercise..

Point blank as long as Turbine has the customers money and as long as they are not refunding those who subscribed ahead of times money back damned right they have a right to be ticked off and even more a right to complain in the forums.

A simple, honest apology would go along way from them but getting Turbine to even offer that up is like pulling teeth. When any type of half@ss apology starts out with "Well, we didn't really lie..." then you know you aren't getting an actual apology.

[Kalari]

A simple, honest apology would go along way from them but getting Turbine to even offer that up is like pulling teeth. When any type of half@ss apology starts out with "Well, we didn't really lie..." then you know you aren't getting an actual apology.

Sad thing is they dont realize how true that is, not just a crappy arse blip in an interview or having the forum mods speak.

The people in charge could go a long way by giving us a true address and formally saying "hey our bad. Things didnt go as we planned every time we thought we were close something happened. Now we need to know via lama that our work is gonna pay off going live. We have many ideas and we know the hard work you put in for us pumping our names in that contest bringing in friends via word of mouth. Were truly sorry if you feel wronged that was not our intention and in the future with communication we will keep you our valued playerbase informed if something delays our projected goals..

Sure I know they wont do this but that would have went a long way. Something like that probably would have kept many of us from feeling so jaded and bitter to. Now all we can do is wait, and with waiting specially since many still cant even test beta comes rumors, speculation and round and round arguing. I just wish theyd give us something to look forward to a date anything. That coming this summer **** was another stab in the eye as well :(

[Vallin]

Anyone who can tell a player in that situation that "its their fault" amazes me.

When it comes to delivering product on time Turbine earns a rating of EPIC FAIL. This has been the case ever since I signed up.

Anyone who was led to believe anything allowed themselves to be led. They can complain - and I agree they have every right - but they also have an awful lot of evidence that should have been blaring sirens at them about the way these things have historically been delivered.

None of that makes Turbine right - because they are not. However, if you allow yourself to be 'suckered' then you have to take some of that responsibility yourself.

Personally, I pay for what is. I obtain entertainment from it - today. It may not even be here tomorrow. If this is the case, I am willing to take the hit. The money is small enough to me that I don't really care.

This is why I said - if it breaks your bank, and given the Turbine track record - anyone who is stretched by these fees shouldn't be wasting their time anyway.

You can only be ripped off if you have promises of no risk and if there is a proven track record of deliverables. If someone doesn't see the 'risk' in this situation then they are delusional.

[Kalari]

Valin its not about breaking banks and I agree if anyone was *****ing that it cost them too much money they deserved to be laughed at. And yes Turbine does have a track record for delays but that was at tops (since Ive been playing) with mods 2 weeks I think was the worst maybe a month my memory is shoddy.

Thats a huge difference between a 9 month wait. And compounded with the way tid bits were tossed at us and the complete shut down of communication between them and us yeah they did really wrong and I do not blame anyone who thought buying the 6 month plan was a good idea. Im sure they have archives of that Mayhem contests. Anyone who participated in it can tell you the hell we went threw defending turbine for crumbs of info. And even then that info no way led us to know the magnitude of EU and us going free to play. To say the rug was yanked would be putting it mildly. And even then we tried to hope that this new plan would be great. Only thing is were still getting "Coming soon, or Coming this summer" instead of something viable to sink our teeth in.

sure say "go test beta." yeah many who got the darn key can do that, learn the new stuff till they have it down then do it live and really be bored after a few weeks. Or keep waiting for it to be live so we can have that "new" experience again. I swear a preview server is both a blessing and a curse to where it may help them find bugs, but it defeats the new release being well new. If you know the plane of battle before its live its gonna get old to you quicker then having it fresh and learning it with friends.

All im saying is yeah the complaints are tiring to read and im tired of feeling dejected over a game I should be treasuring. But many of us feel mislead for valid reasons and were never gonna be addressed by the people responsible. So more threads like this will continue till they do something about it.

[Kylani]

Not all dungeons can be re-entered in the place you can use those cakes (behind closed gates, blue barriers).

For all quests, by rezzing out and running back you have both an XP penalty as well as a time sink as your "punishment". This is the easy button as you can immediately rez (and re-supply if needed).
It kind of goes back to the arguement where people don't want to swing at monsters for so long. If I am ultra powerful, why not just skip straight to the chest?


Having the chance of failure is what provides some excitement into the game for a lot of players. The "easy button" reduces this "thrill". If you think a change that people can "ignore" and play their own way doesn't affect the game then why do they make changes such as nerfing wounding of puncturing? It is a change that really only affects those who have the items and people can just group with others who don't have them. Because in a game where you can group with anyone, any changes affect everyone.

The question is how big of an impact is that particular change?

Thank you for answering, and I agree with your thoughts. The question IS how big of an impact these changes really are. There's always got to be some kind of time sync, but balanced by keeping the game fun. You can't only have a series of giant boss battles.

I think people have very different styles now and manage to enjoy the game. It's somewhat hard to find a group now that doesn't zerge thru quests because they know them so well, so I'm all for not making people more 'zerge happy', but it's hard to imagine how anyone could be less zerge oriented than some are now.

It's hard to imagine people spending money hand over fist for an easy button. It just doesn't ring true at all with me because it seems pointless. Why bother? However, I personally have no idea how most people play a game. I don't really trust Turbine, but I have to think they've researched this and will try to balance it. They are taking a huge risk. I hope they're open to constructive feedback with solutions/alternatives would be better than saying having a store is just broken.

I'd have no problem at all if they took rez cakes out of the store. I'd just like the feedback to be constructive so that Turbine would listen vs. generalizations that they can't have a store period with no reasoning. If there is a good compromise that will bring in money for new content without it being an overpowering issue, I think it could be a win/win, so I'd strive for that.

The only item I consider absolute 'must haves' for the store is adventure packs. I don't see why everything else in the store couldn't be debated with reasonable arguments. I also think they would likely make changes as they go if they see evidence of them being 'game-breaking'. It seems like adding/removing items and adjusting prices could be done fairly easily.

Anyway, thank you for the explanation and thoughtful answer. I appreciate it. :)

[Erekose]

I'd say greensteel, 80+AC, WoP, and various other things in game have cheapened DDO more than a rez cookie ever will :)

Hey no fair, my pure rogue passed his wop rapier on to my Barbarians and only uses Rad2 and Min2 rapiers to make it fair on the trash. And I only got a 79 AC raid buffed. And UMD raise scrolls. :P

[Dark_Helmet]

Although I can't speak for anyone else, it has seemed abundantly clear to me that there have been no guarantees on release dates for anything for this game in a long time. In fact, all the evidence points to the fact that things probably will never get released when they say they are going to. This pattern goes back for nearly as long as I have been subscribing.

Vallin

Nice blinders.. First you call me out about how you can't learn from the past and now you post that because they can't make their own deadlines, you don't believe they will make their deadlines :rolleyes:.


While not an actual release date, I will provide something that most would agree is a reasonable time frame to count as a release date.

State of the Game address 2007 (http://www.ddo.com/ddogameinfo/developer-diaries/289-state-of-the-game-address):
•Half-Orc & Half-Elf Race – Were you hoping for a little more diversity in playable races, and perhaps a tusk or two? Keep an eye out towards the end of the year
•Guild Housing – Another often requested feature, Guild Housing is something we are working on for late this year or early next year. Housing will provide Guilds with a home base in the city, where they can display their accolades and possibly purchase conveniences for Guild members like a Tavern keep or a Guild Bank Manager.

I skipped the slipped dates and instead reference what the producer said would be coming out within a year and it has been two without a hint.


All of the other content where their goals were "A dungeon a week / 1 per month" has been pruned, so I can't quote it.

[Vallin]

Nice blinders.. First you call me out about how you can't learn from the past and now you post that because they can't make their own deadlines, you don't believe they will make their deadlines :rolleyes:.


While not an actual release date, I will provide something that most would agree is a reasonable time frame to count as a release date.

State of the Game address 2007 (http://www.ddo.com/ddogameinfo/developer-diaries/289-state-of-the-game-address):
•Half-Orc & Half-Elf Race – Were you hoping for a little more diversity in playable races, and perhaps a tusk or two? Keep an eye out towards the end of the year
•Guild Housing – Another often requested feature, Guild Housing is something we are working on for late this year or early next year. Housing will provide Guilds with a home base in the city, where they can display their accolades and possibly purchase conveniences for Guild members like a Tavern keep or a Guild Bank Manager.

I skipped the slipped dates and instead reference what the producer said would be coming out within a year and it has been two without a hint.


All of the other content where their goals were "A dungeon a week / 1 per month" has been pruned, so I can't quote it.


I'm sure you meant to have a point. Try reading the conversation before you respond. I just said that there have been no guarantees on release dates for anything for this game in a long time. You provide an example of a supposed 'promise about a release date' that is over two years old. Thanks for proving my point. And by the way, also as you pointed out - they didn't deliver on that content either.

As for not learning, I wasn't among the wishers and hopers who thought that Turbine would release on a reasonable schedule. If people are disappointed, you provide a perfect example on how they can start by dishing some of the blame to themselves.

[Borror0]

As for not learning, I wasn't among the wishers and hopers who thought that Turbine would release on a reasonable schedule. If people are disappointed, you provide a perfect example on how they can start by dishing some of the blame to themselves.
Good job! A straw man this time.

You're responding to a point that he did not make. He was pointing out the inconsistency in your position.

[Vallin]

In context, I stated that Dark's experience with his play by mail game is NOT predictive of what will happen with DDO. It is a stretch to say that "Well something happened in my play by mail game and the same thing will happen in DDO." At that time, my comments were related to his PBM game. If you read the thread, you will see that I was not the only one to state that the comparisons of PBM to DDO were a little tenuous.

Then fast forward and we are on a different topic - now here is an example where it is reasonable and fair to draw a comparison. Turbine has rarely delivered on time in the past, so it is reasonable to believe that they won't deliver on time in the future. That is not so much of a stretch. In this case the past might be predictive of the future.

OK, so slowly for your benefit: It might not be valid to compare a PBM experience with DDO. It might be valid to compare Turbine's conduct in the past with conduct we should expect from them in the future. I certainly hope you can see the difference, but I have my doubts.

You demonstrate a notable inability to independently consider conversations in their proper contexts. I imagine how that can be quite disabling for you. The threads are all there for you to read. Why not actually read them before you post?

Vallin

[Borror0]

In context, I stated that Dark's experience with his play by mail game is NOT predictive of what will happen with DDO. It is a stretch to say that "Well something happened in my play by mail game and the same thing will happen in DDO."
It's simply a known fact that drastically changing what you game is about is setting yourself up for failure.

Turbine has rarely delivered on time in the past, so it is reasonable to believe that they won't deliver on time in the future. That is not so much of a stretch.
I could point out that the calculations entailed that Turbine would be late of another two months, which puts the delay to proportions never been seen before when it was already known that the module was on ML for months already.

Instead, I'll simply point out that this argument is a red herring and I have no idea why you think it was related to what I said.

OK, so slowly for your benefit: It might not be valid to compare a PBM experience with DDO. It might be valid to compare Turbine's conduct in the past with conduct we should expect from them in the future. I certainly hope you can see the difference, but I have my doubts.
If one would assume that Turbine's conduct will be consistent, he or she would have resubscribed for another six months.

Turbine is not in the habit of being that late.

You demonstrate a notable inability to independently consider conversations in their proper contexts.
Oh, the irony.

[Pyromaniac]

Tell that to all the people who were mislead into thinking mod 9 was going to be coming out soon, months ago.

QFT once again - rep for you!

[irivan]

The funny thing here is that in this thread, like all of the other BS Turbine is wrecking my game threads that i have seen posted and reposted again, it is always the usual suspects weighing in, with the same opinion(s)

Get over it already, the reason Turbine is not listening to any of you and is not backing up on thier plans is that they had 90% of the populace tell them the exact opposite of what you are purporting, infact i would bet it is 99%. Oh and since arbitrary numbers get thrown around in here like nothing i wil be sticking to my 99%.

One thing i can say is that Vallin is 100% right

All of his arguments are sound, none of you have ever debunked anything he has ever said

So who are the chief complainer in chiefs!!!? you can see them on every complaint thread and often make up at least 50% of the responses in said threads.

1. Borror0
2. Bandyman
3. Dark_Helmut
4. Quanafel
5. pyromaniac
6. Yuhjn
7. Kalari

lets refer to them as the "SAD COUNCIL", after all when the mod launches they will be very sad that their game has become unplayable, ruined by the easy button.

I propose that we hold a silent vigil for them as soon as the mod launches, and share in their pain

I promise to do this just before the fun begins for me.

I love what they are doing in Mod 9 and DDO: EU and so does most of the rest of the populace , so this vigil will be very brief, but at least our actions will then show you that you have been heard, will this suffice? If you need a hug let me know.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

it has seemed abundantly clear to me that there have been no guarantees on release dates for anything for this game in a long time.

http://timesonline.typepad.com/comment/images/2008/06/18/albert_einstein_2.jpg

Done & Done

[bandyman1]

I love what they are doing in Mod 9 and DDO: EU and so does most of the rest of the populace ,

You DO realize that Vallin ( whom you say is 100% right ), is completely and totally against peeps making such claims, when they lack any numbers to back them up, correct???

So; Where are your numbers Irivan? Oh; That's right.

You don't have any.

[irivan]

You DO realize that Vallin ( whom you say is 100% right ), is completely and totally against peeps making such claims, when they lack any numbers to back them up, correct???

So; Where are your numbers Irivan? Oh; That's right.

You don't have any.

Of course i dont, and neither does anyone else, so from here on out, i am just going to make them up!!!

[Quanefel]

The funny thing here is that in this thread, like all of the other BS Turbine is wrecking my game threads that i have seen posted and reposted again, it is always the usual suspects weighing in, with the same opinion(s)

Get over it already, the reason Turbine is not listening to any of you and is not backing up on thier plans is that they had 90% of the populace tell them the exact opposite of what you are purporting, infact i would bet it is 99%. Oh and since arbitrary numbers get thrown around in here like nothing i wil be sticking to my 99%.

One thing i can say is that Vallin is 100% right

All of his arguments are sound, none of you have ever debunked anything he has ever said

So who are the chief complainer in chiefs!!!? you can see them on every complaint thread and often make up at least 50% of the responses in said threads.

1. Borror0
2. Bandyman
3. Dark_Helmut
4. Quanafel
5. pyromaniac
6. Yuhjn
7. Kalari

lets refer to them as the "SAD COUNCIL", after all when the mod launches they will be very sad that their game has become unplayable, ruined by the easy button.

I propose that we hold a silent vigil for them as soon as the mod launches, and share in their pain

I promise to do this just before the fun begins for me.

I love what they are doing in Mod 9 and DDO: EU and so does most of the rest of the populace , so this vigil will be very brief, but at least our actions will then show you that you have been heard, will this suffice? If you need a hug let me know.

You are getting a bit worked up from people saying one word that might put Turbine in a negative light.

I am sure Turbine is falling all over themselves with feedback such as "We love it. We love you Turbine. Yay!". For some reason I am thinking they are looking for a bit more than...that.

Also, if you all are wanting the rest if us to go along with the program, I am sure we will let you know if that kind of persuasion works on us. I would not hold my breath though on it.

[Kalari]

Woohoo I so want dibs on Cheif of the sad council..

serious dude thats such a sad attack on someone who has constantly put out ideas for the game that many have agreed are good.

yeah ive really trashed the game by asking for for them to give us more then "coming soon" or "coming this summer"

I find it funny how you can blindly cheer the company on in face of everything and resort constantly to name calling in your defense. If your the kind of VIP Turbine wants to keep around then maybe us on the sad council should leave.

Honestly I just dont understand why people cant air their disappointments without being called names but whatever. Like I said wont stop till they get something more definitive then "try our beta, learn everything ahead of time so when it goes live its not new.."

But enjoy the pom poms im sure they love the happy goodness you are spreading in all your "go turbine posts."

[Borror0]

Honestly I just dont understand why people cant air their disappointments without being called names but whatever.
I was about to reply, but figured it was borderline acceptable. So, I sent you a PM.

[Pyromaniac]

So who are the chief complainer in chiefs!!!? you can see them on every complaint thread and often make up at least 50% of the responses in said threads.

1. Borror0
2. Bandyman
3. Dark_Helmut
4. Quanafel
5. pyromaniac
6. Yuhjn
7. Kalari


I am honored to be on a list with such esteemed company which truly can see what is happening with DDO and isn't blindly trusting every move Turbine makes. Perhaps if there was actually something to do in game, and if those in charge of DDO knew what they were doing...we wouldn't have made the list!

Or maybe some of the other side of the thread will get jaded and bitter eventually once they've been misled enough.

Now I have to work on moving up the list - watch out Borror0, I'm movin' on up!

I also highly suspect some of you are aliases for Turbine employees...I also have a bridge for sale if you're interested...

[Yazmyn]

Sighs OK had too read through all this mess to post. I have been here for a while. Every time I re-roll I am reminded of how long. There are too many “Zealots” trying to have a discussion. Whether the store will help or hurt DDO is unclear. Will it affect some people yes but there has always been ways to buy your way to completions ie Mana pots, festival coins, cakes,heal scrolls,res scrolls and plat farmers. I don't know how it is going to turn out but I am willing to give it a chance. It cant be much worse than everyone that has already left. Just my thoughts .

[Cowdenicus]

Has anybody made a serious valid point yet on how the DDO Store and F2P is going to hurt the game?

(Note this is not sarcasm, but I am not going to read through a flame fest for it.)

[Borror0]

I also highly suspect some of you are aliases for Turbine employees...I also have a bridge for sale if you're interested...
I disagree. It's very unlikely that they are a Turbine employee writing under an alias.

Turbine employees either agree with us or would not waste their time here. There are good arguments that can be made for the case of the eStore, but they can only be made by someone with data to support it and would also require that employee to say "We do not care about our current subscribers."

[Yargore]

Has anybody made a serious valid point yet on how the DDO Store and F2P is going to hurt the game?

(Note this is not sarcasm, but I am not going to read through a flame fest for it.)

Someone said something about rich kids being able to buy a raise cookie instead of running back to the quest. It will totaly ruin the game!
(Note that was sarcasm)


There is nothing game breaking about that store as it can't be used in raids.

[Borror0]

Has anybody made a serious valid point yet on how the DDO Store and F2P is going to hurt the game?

(Note this is not sarcasm, but I am not going to read through a flame fest for it.)
Since the announcement of the eStore, there is a topic that makes its way into many gameplay discussions.

Each time a change that makes or will make the game more challenging is mentioned or suggested by one of Turbine's employee, it does not take too long for many players think that the motive behind the change is to force players into spending more money from the eStore.

There was already a "them versus us" mentality between the players in the developers, as the developers have sometimes to make dungeon harder or nerf characters to maintain the game's balance. Personally, I believe that such an attitude is absurd, but it's a reality nonetheless. With the addition of the eStore, that phenomenon will only escalate as people will feel that Turbine are out for your money rather than trying to improve the game.

It does not matter how many times Turbine employees will swear that it is not the goal, very few will be persuaded by this. After all, it's not illogical to expect that a a private company tries to increase their profits.

The problem with that is that this is highly corrosive.

Realize that, here, I am not speaking for myself. To a large extent, what I describe here is not something that affects me. While I have issues with the addition of consumables to the eStore, this is not the reason that I, personally, do not want those to not be sold. It is more me describing the phenomenon.

As the nature of a game suggests, DDO is supposed to be entertaining and fun. However, adding money into the equation does complicate things a lot. Many players, myself included, do not like the idea of having to spend money to be effective in the game. For that reason, I was more than happy to Fernando and Tarrant confirmed that the game would not be balanced around the eStore. For me and many other players, that would destroy what the game is about.

Since the nature of consumables is that the harder a quest is the more one will consume, making the game harder will inevitably result in a greater consumption of these and, if one cannot afford it, result in increasing the eStore sales. Thus, if a player feels that his consumption of consumables has got higher than he could afford, he might conclude that Turbine is definitively out to get his money and not there to provide a fun and enjoyable game which might, in return, result in a lesser enjoyment of the game as that conflict is destructive of fun for some.

That will be true for both genuine attempts at improving the game and unfortunate mistakes when trying to balance a challenge.

While it is possible to convince players that you are there to improve the game if the eStore only contains cosmetics, content and items with little effect on gameplay like automatically unlocking Elite or walking faster in public instances, it's much harder to pull off if you sale items that directly impact the likelihood one has to complete a quest or raid. At that point, it will depend on how much faith a player has in Turbine and experience says that MMO players tend to trust game developers very little. We all know how much gamers love their tinfoil hats and crafting theories about how the game developers can make their live more miserable.

As game developers, this is most definitively something Turbine should be wary of.

It's also important to note that it seriously advantages those who are willing to spend the most real world money in that they going to be the ones completing quests the fastest and completing quests much more successfully. While that is a worthwhile design decision, it's not one that we are interested into and it's a major shift from how DDO was built at the start.

Sticking to this has a close similitude to SWG's NGE in that it's a major departure from one of the defining point of the game's design (ie equality for all, regardless of real world wealth) for the sake of greater profits. While I don't want to equal the two, it's something to keep in mind.

The successfulness of such a strategy is doubtful and it's enough to kill the game on a personal level. That is, for us, the game will no longer be one we aspire to play.

[Cowdenicus]

Since the announcement of the eStore, there is a topic that makes its way into many gameplay discussions.

Each time a change that makes or will make the game more challenging is mentioned or suggested by one of Turbine's employee, it does not take too long for many players think that the motive behind the change is to force players into spending more money from the eStore.

There was already a "them versus us" mentality between the players in the developers, as the developers have sometimes to make dungeon harder or nerf characters to maintain the game's balance. Personally, I believe that such an attitude is absurd, but it's a reality nonetheless. With the addition of the eStore, that phenomenon will only escalate as people will feel that Turbine are out for your money rather than trying to improve the game.

It does not matter how many times Turbine employees will swear that it is not the goal, very few will be persuaded by this. After all, it's not illogical to expect that a a private company tries to increase their profits.

The problem with that is that this is highly corrosive.

Realize that, here, I am not speaking for myself. To a large extent, what I describe here is not something that affects me. While I have issues with the addition of consumables to the eStore, this is not the reason that I, personally, do not want those to not be sold. It is more me describing the phenomenon.

As the nature of a game suggests, DDO is supposed to be entertaining and fun. However, adding money into the equation does complicate things a lot. Many players, myself included, do not like the idea of having to spend money to be effective in the game. For that reason, I was more than happy to Fernando and Tarrant confirmed that the game would not be balanced around the eStore. For me and many other players, that would destroy what the game is about.

Since the nature of consumables is that the harder a quest is the more one will consume, making the game harder will inevitably result in a greater consumption of these and, if one cannot afford it, result in increasing the eStore sales. Thus, if a player feels that his consumption of consumables has got higher than he could afford, he might conclude that Turbine is definitively out to get his money and not there to provide a fun and enjoyable game which might, in return, result in a lesser enjoyment of the game as that conflict is destructive of fun for some.

That will be true for both genuine attempts at improving the game and unfortunate mistakes when trying to balance a challenge.

While it is possible to convince players that you are there to improve the game if the eStore only contains cosmetics, content and items with little effect on gameplay like automatically unlocking Elite or walking faster in public instances, it's much harder to pull off if you sale items that directly impact the likelihood one has to complete a quest or raid. At that point, it will depend on how much faith a player has in Turbine and experience says that MMO players tend to trust game developers very little. We all know how much gamers love their tinfoil hats and crafting theories about how the game developers can make their live more miserable.

As game developers, this is most definitively something Turbine should be wary of.

It's also important to note that it seriously advantages those who are willing to spend the most real world money in that they going to be the ones completing quests the fastest and completing quests much more successfully. While that is a worthwhile design decision, it's not one that we are interested into and it's a major shift from how DDO was built at the start.

Sticking to this has a close similitude to SWG's NGE in that it's a major departure from one of the defining point of the game's design (ie equality for all, regardless of real world wealth) for the sake of greater profits. While I don't want to equal the two, it's something to keep in mind.

The successfulness of such a strategy is doubtful and it's enough to kill the game on a personal level. That is, for us, the game will no longer be one we aspire to play.

Of the items I have seen or read about being released (and note this is strictly my opinion) on normal (as far as I know) shrines regenerate, so all they are paying for is the ability to save a few minutes. Mana pots I really have no opinion on, I mean I have acquired like 150 major mnemonics on Ghallanda and I have not even played in a year. That leaves res cakes, again simply a time server. Oh unless we are talking about the bell that is like a knock spell.

None of these can be used in raids can they? The only thing these items are doing is saving some time. Every item that is being sold can be done in game if you are willing to spend some time and effort doing it.

Heck I can summon a shrine anywhere I want in game right now if I want to (yes I still have slices of that cake left, that summons the genie)

So I just do not understand what the big deal is. The only consumable on there that cannot be done in game is the experience potion. That is honestly my largest concern....

Everybody can flame my opinion if they want, I am not saying I am right and everybody else is wrong, I am just giving my opinion.

[Pyromaniac]

I disagree. It's very unlikely that they are a Turbine employee writing under an alias.

Possibly, but who knows? I can't think of great arguments to support why an E-Store is good for DDO unless someone's a turbine employee or wants to buy their completions.