teh d4,d6,d10, etc. methodology, can we change it now?

[Shaamis]

Hey guys and gals, Shaamis here.....

You all know I'm a big PnP fan, and a BIGGER D&D fan.

I understand DDO following the physical dice methodology for determining damage, but it is getting to the point that it's not really working anymore.

case in point:

limited weapons make sense to use, because the mathematics behind the dice and the crit multiplier make it for only a handful of weapons: (rapiers, dw. axes, khopeshes, and then everything else.)

What I suggest:

Since DDO is NOT D&D, and DDO will never get turned into a PnP game, why not abandon the physical limitations of a polyhedron dice?

Why cant' Greensteel Dwarven Axes, which we ALL know are overpowered, be given a damage range of 2-14, instead of the 2d8 damage? Why can't Khopeshes be given a 1-7 "dice" range, or longswords be given a 1-9 damage range?

I know there are a lot of other examples that we can think of, where in the physical world, the polyhedron "dice" would be impossible to create, but in the "virtual dice"
world of DDO, these ranges are possible, and balanced.

DEVS, please consider this as an option, in order for weapons to be a little more balanced, bring other interesting weapons into the game, and make weapons already in the game useful again.

<GULP>

[Cowdenicus]

We could have all weapons do 1d3 damage....

:rolleyes:

[Borror0]

Why should we do that?

[Dirac]

Only d4, d6, d8, d12, and d20 should be used. Even the d10 is an abomination. They are the original dice for a reason. ;)

edit: I'm just joking around and don't mean to derail the OP, who was a point. Given a computer, there isn't any reason you can't increase the diversity of your random rolls.

[Thriand]

Hey guys and gals, Shaamis here.....

You all know I'm a big PnP fan, and a BIGGER D&D fan.

I understand DDO following the physical dice methodology for determining damage, but it is getting to the point that it's not really working anymore.

case in point:

limited weapons make sense to use, because the mathematics behind the dice and the crit multiplier make it for only a handful of weapons: (rapiers, dw. axes, khopeshes, and then everything else.)

What I suggest:

Since DDO is NOT D&D, and DDO will never get turned into a PnP game, why not abandon the physical limitations of a polyhedron dice?

Why cant' Greensteel Dwarven Axes, which we ALL know are overpowered, be given a damage range of 2-14, instead of the 2d8 damage? Why can't Khopeshes be given a 1-7 "dice" range, or longswords be given a 1-9 damage range?

I know there are a lot of other examples that we can think of, where in the physical world, the polyhedron "dice" would be impossible to create, but in the "virtual dice"
world of DDO, these ranges are possible, and balanced.

DEVS, please consider this as an option, in order for weapons to be a little more balanced, bring other interesting weapons into the game, and make weapons already in the game useful again.

<GULP>

Why exactly? I don't really see where you are going with this

[Seosamh]

/confused

/not signed

[Kadran]

You realize that in order to find the damage in a range of 2-14, someone at Turbine will have to roll (1d13)+1. :-)

/Not Signed.

If this change were implemented we'd be in the exact same place we are now, with some weapons being better than others. I want to say this, and I'd like to only have to say it once: that's perfectly ok.

If every weapon were equal then there'd be far less diversity in builds then there is now. You think piercing weapons are overpowered? I've seen a lot of Dwarven Axe and Khopesh builds. And I have a blunt weapons build, and my buddy has a Quarterstaff build rogue. (Which by the way, still do decent damage and are FAR cheaper and less rare to come across.)

[Kerrn_Siff]

If every weapon were equal then there'd be far less diversity in builds then there is now. You think piercing weapons are overpowered? I've seen a lot of Dwarven Axe and Khopesh builds. And I have a blunt weapons build, and my buddy has a Quarterstaff build rogue. (Which by the way, still do decent damage and are FAR cheaper and less rare to come across.)

I don't think the OPs original point was to make all weapons equal, but that since we are not constrained to physical dice the damage ranges of weapons could be made more unique.

Also it might be an interesting area for feats/enhancements to add additional damage to weapons by shifting the base 'dice' damage (in addition to all the other current options) 'up' as an option.

[KKDragonLord]

you can also roll 1d6+1d8 and divide by 2 ignoring non integral results.
1d6+1d8/2=1-7 (i actually use this method in my PnP game)

[Dirac]

you can also roll 1d6+1d8 and divide by 2 ignoring non integral results.
1d6+1d8/2=1-7 (i actually use this method in my PnP game)

But this will not give you an equal probability of rolling 1-7. You will get more 4's than 1's and 7's. Wouldn't it be a lot easier to roll a d8 and roll again if you roll an 8?

[Shaamis]

Why should we do that?


A lot of people complain about the lack of diversity in weapons in DDO.

but if you look at the dice damage mechanics, we already have too many weapons in DDO:

dart 1d2(X2) thrown weapon
dagger 1d4(19-20X2) lt weapon
kukri 1d4 (18-20X2) lt weapon
Throwing axe 1d6 (20X2) thrown slashing weapon
Throwing hammer 1d6 (20X2) thrown blunt weapon
short sword 1d6 (19-20X2) lt piercing weapon
rapier 1d6 (18-20X2) finessable medium piercing weapon
scimitar 1d6 (18-20X2) slashing weapon this weapon is in need of help
longsword 1d8 (19-20X2) slashing weapon has some help, but I never use this weapon because of it's low DPS.
khopesh 1d8 (19-20X3) best non-greensteel weapon for pure DPS, and a testament to Turbine's ability to think outside of the PnP "box" and decide to change the rules a little. Otherwise, it's just a longsword, with special abilities in the PnP game that can't be used in DDO.
bastard sword 1d10 (19-20X2) under-utilized weapon, but damage seems good
dwarven axe 1d10 (20X3) only weapon i see as balanced, UNTIL you look at it's greensteel equivalent. 2d8 damage? 60% increase in base gamage potential for a one-handed weapon, c'mon.....


There are other blunt examples where the ONLY reason i use them is versus DR skeletons, and other DR-X/blunt, and it seems like the time those were put into the game could be utilized better, if tere is a better incentive to use them.

[Cowdenicus]

A lot of people complain about the lack of diversity in weapons in DDO.

but if you look at the dice damage mechanics, we already have too many weapons in DDO:

dart 1d2(X2) thrown weapon
dagger 1d4(19-20X2) lt weapon
kukri 1d4 (18-20X2) lt weapon
Throwing axe 1d6 (20X2) thrown slashing weapon
Throwing hammer 1d6 (20X2) thrown blunt weapon
short sword 1d6 (19-20X2) lt piercing weapon
rapier 1d6 (18-20X2) finessable medium piercing weapon
scimitar 1d6 (18-20X2) slashing weapon this weapon is in need of help
longsword 1d8 (19-20X2) slashing weapon has some help, but I never use this weapon because of it's low DPS.
khopesh 1d8 (19-20X3) best non-greensteel weapon for pure DPS, and a testament to Turbine's ability to think outside of the PnP "box" and decide to change the rules a little. Otherwise, it's just a longsword, with special abilities in the PnP game that can't be used in DDO.
bastard sword 1d10 (19-20X2) under-utilized weapon, but damage seems good
dwarven axe 1d10 (20X3) only weapon i see as balanced, UNTIL you look at it's greensteel equivalent. 2d8 damage? 60% increase in base gamage potential for a one-handed weapon, c'mon.....


There are other blunt examples where the ONLY reason i use them is versus DR skeletons, and other DR-X/blunt, and it seems like the time those were put into the game could be utilized better, if tere is a better incentive to use them.

My clerics use longswords, and you forgot picks. That is all. ;)

[Zenako]

While the idea has some merit, from a purely mathmatical point of view. You are forgettting that items like weapons also occupy a place in the DDO economy. BY having weapons range a little bit in optimization, you also end up with otherwise similar weapons having significantly different pricing points.

On the extreme end, high crit piercing (Rapiers, etc) weapons with Power 5 attributes or the Puncturing Suffix. While a weapon with the same properties, albeit a dagger fro example are dramatically cheaper. And so on down the line.

This provides a way to differentiate within the market. You can get some pretty dang nice weapons if you are not tied to having the absolute best variant of them. Both a Longsword and Khopesh crit on 19's so the process rate of On Crit effects is the same. You do lose out on the Crit Multiplier thou, but that is why the Price of a Longsword with X is so much lower than a Khopesh with X. Since the chance to find any of them in loot is pretty much equal for all, keeping some weapons as "the best" retains the opportunity for anyone to hit the jackpot.

If all the weapons are modified to bring them to the same effectiveness, that would frankly suck. They have differences, and that has utility in the game world. Only a very few opperate in the realm where plat is not an issue, when it goes to the best of the best gear.

[Borror0]

There are other blunt examples where the ONLY reason i use them is versus DR skeletons, and other DR-X/blunt, and it seems like the time those were put into the game could be utilized better, if tere is a better incentive to use them.
There are a lot of ways to make each weapon more attractive other than mess up with the core rules.

But, if you really want to use a drastic change, nerf khopesh instead. That's the number one culprit and it'll make it far easier to make other weapons more popular.

[Shaamis]

You realize that in order to find the damage in a range of 2-14, someone at Turbine will have to roll (1d13)+1. :-)

/Not Signed.

If this change were implemented we'd be in the exact same place we are now, with some weapons being better than others. I want to say this, and I'd like to only have to say it once: that's perfectly ok.

If every weapon were equal then there'd be far less diversity in builds then there is now. You think piercing weapons are overpowered? I've seen a lot of Dwarven Axe and Khopesh builds. And I have a blunt weapons build, and my buddy has a Quarterstaff build rogue. (Which by the way, still do decent damage and are FAR cheaper and less rare to come across.)

For those who know code, generating a probability string for a range from 2-14, is very simple, and it's actually MORE difficult to mimic the physical polyhedral dice probabilities. (i.e. ((1d8)+(1d8)) vs. 2-16)

I'm NOT saying the system is broken, I am saying there are a lot of sub-par weapons not being used in ddo, simply because the methodology of adhering tothe physical polyhedron dice is making it so.

The reason maces are cheaper than other weapons is BECAUSE they are mathematically inferior to other weapons.

If the weapons were more closely competitive, it would promote MORE diversity amongst builds. You would see more dual-mace builds, or dual dagger builds. Right now, dual khopesh, dual GS Dw. Axe, and Greataxe builds are predominant, and it's because those weapons are mathematically superior.

I would like to see more builds like your mace build, and your friend's quarterstaff build, but I am willing to bet these weapon builds fall short of your same builds with khopeshes and dw. axes. it's because there are reasons outside of DDO that are keeping these weapons from being competitive with the most popular weapons, such as a trip bonus a weapon gets in PnP, but doesnt translate in DDO.

decent damage, while ok, is not something I would build a DPS build around.

I think if all weapons in DDO were adjusted to make the playing field more level, it would promote weapon style diversity, thats all.

[Kadran]

I would like to see more builds like your mace build, and your friend's quarterstaff build, but I am willing to bet these weapon builds fall short of your same builds with khopeshes and dw. axes. it's because there are reasons outside of DDO that are keeping these weapons from being competitive with the most popular weapons, such as a trip bonus a weapon gets in PnP, but doesnt translate in DDO.

My blunt specced toon is great fun to play. He's not as "uber" as my TWF Khopesh toon, but he can certainly hold his own. I do not view him as gimped because he chooses to use a different type of weapon. Unless you're talking about on-crit effects, like banishing, puncturing, etc the maces are pretty close DPS wise. They don't crit hit as often, but blunt weapons certainly have their strong points. Weighted is very under-rated. The ability to stun a mob with a regular attack is great, and if you have Stunning Blow, it makes your stuns land SO much more frequently. Oh, and Maladroit of Bone Breaking are fun to dual wield as well. I would recommend dual wielding blunt weapons on any support character (but for number crunchers that want to squeeze every point of damage, this is not for you.)

The point is these weapons are perfectly viable. Though they are not the best DPS, they still have a purpose. Most people, especially at end game, don't bother to use them to their full potential.


The reason maces are cheaper than other weapons is BECAUSE they are mathematically inferior to other weapons.

Exactly. And the only way to remedy this situation is to make maces better than the other weapons (I.E. what the Khopesh is now.) You can go about this several ways: make maces better. Nerf everything else (this will be a favorite among the forum crowd. :-) Add a new blunt-only weapon effect that's off the chain. Add more Blunt DR mobs forcing people to use them anyway. And there's so many other paths.

I agree maces need some loving, but perhaps not as badly as you make it sound. I think most people need to use them, and see that they're really not lacking as badly as they thought they were.

[Shaamis]

There are a lot of ways to make each weapon more attractive other than mess up with the core rules.

But, if you really want to use a drastic change, nerf khopesh instead. That's the number one culprit and it'll make it far easier to make other weapons more popular.

If you see my earlier (pre year 2) posts, you will see I was a big proponent to making DDO as close to core rules PnP, but the grim reality is the core rules are keeping DDO from being a good game.

weapon reach, trip bonuses, grappling bonuses, singlehand/THF use, and additional blocking defense are all benefits PnP weapons provide, but DDO will never use. Some of those reasons are why these weapons even exist, others are reasons why the weapon does a specific amount of damage (and therefore game balance).

why should a quarterstaff do 1d6 damage, when we all know (if you have been hit with one) that it is capable of doing a LOT more. Quarterstaffs in PnP get non-damage benefits that dont translate into DDO, and therefore are hampered in it's DDO-potential.

Khopeshes have other benefits in PnP that don't translate to DDO well, such as a trip bonus(?) and something else .....maybe Turbine decided to keep the Khopesh in the game, and differentiate it from the other swords by giving it a X3 multiplier instead of X2, differentiating it from longswords, battleaxes, and bastard swords.

I agree, tehy should adhere one way or another, revert khopeshes back to long-sword status.

Personally, a slight adjustment, free of any polyhedron-dice restrictions could go a long way.

remember, DDO is not D&D PnP, and can never be, It took me 3 years to understand that, and it still saddens me.

[Kadran]

why should a quarterstaff do 1d6 damage, when we all know (if you have been hit with one) that it is capable of doing a LOT more. Quarterstaffs in PnP get non-damage benefits that dont translate into DDO, and therefore are hampered in it's DDO-potential.



I think 1d6 for a blunt weapon is pretty close to accurate. I mean, 1d6 is roughly half of 1d12 (Greataxe base damage.) I've never been hit with a greataxe, but I'd wager it hurts 2x as much as a Quarterstaff. ;-)

[Borror0]

remember, DDO is not D&D PnP, and can never be, It took me 3 years to understand that, and it still saddens me.
It's still D&D. While there are sometimes good reason to move away from the roots, that is not one.

[Shaamis]

It's still D&D. While there are sometimes good reason to move away from the roots, that is not one.

explain to me why a dwarven axe is 1d10 (20X3) damage, but a greensteel version of the same weapon does 2d8 (20X3) overall increase in maximum damage 60%.....

...and a morningstar is 1d8 (20X2), with the greensteel version does 1d10 (20X2) a difference of 25% of the maximum potential of the damage dice.

[Borror0]

explain to me why a dwarven axe is 1d10 (20X3) damage, but a greensteel version of the same weapon does 2d8 (20X3) overall increase in maximum damage 60%.....

...and a morningstar is 1d8 (20X2), with the greensteel version does 1d10 (20X2) a difference of 25% of the maximum potential of the damage dice.

Green Steel are using the rules for weapons of greater size (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm).

[Zenako]

Green Steel are using the rules for weapons of greater size (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm).

If they actually followed that table it might help.:eek:

D8 weapon goes to 2D6 damage when going from Med to Large, which is what most of the weapon jumps reflect.:mad:

[Borror0]

If they actually followed that table it might help.:eek:

D8 weapon goes to 2D6 damage when going from Med to Large, which is what most of the weapon jumps reflect.:mad:
I'd bug report it!

[Lorien_the_First_One]

There are a lot of ways to make each weapon more attractive other than mess up with the core rules.

But, if you really want to use a drastic change, nerf khopesh instead. That's the number one culprit and it'll make it far easier to make other weapons more popular.

Agreed on both points.

We do need to stick with core rules whenever we can or we should remove D&D from the game's name. Kopeshes are a great example of how you can get messed up by diverting from the game rules.

[Shaamis]

I'd bug report it!

Bug reporting goes so far, and you know it would never get corrected.

I'm not crying foul here, all I want to see is Turbine adopt a system (if it follows core rules thats a bonus) that makes people actually want to use other weapons, for any other reason than "....cheap on the AH...." or ".....easy to find in the weapon shop....". I'll continue to use the tools that are best for the job.

[shores11]

Hey guys and gals, Shaamis here.....

You all know I'm a big PnP fan, and a BIGGER D&D fan.

I understand DDO following the physical dice methodology for determining damage, but it is getting to the point that it's not really working anymore.

case in point:

limited weapons make sense to use, because the mathematics behind the dice and the crit multiplier make it for only a handful of weapons: (rapiers, dw. axes, khopeshes, and then everything else.)

What I suggest:

Since DDO is NOT D&D, and DDO will never get turned into a PnP game, why not abandon the physical limitations of a polyhedron dice?

Why cant' Greensteel Dwarven Axes, which we ALL know are overpowered, be given a damage range of 2-14, instead of the 2d8 damage? Why can't Khopeshes be given a 1-7 "dice" range, or longswords be given a 1-9 damage range?

I know there are a lot of other examples that we can think of, where in the physical world, the polyhedron "dice" would be impossible to create, but in the "virtual dice"
world of DDO, these ranges are possible, and balanced.

DEVS, please consider this as an option, in order for weapons to be a little more balanced, bring other interesting weapons into the game, and make weapons already in the game useful again.

<GULP>

/not signed

I actually like the fact that DDO still uses the D&D dice model. I want to keep DDO as close as is possible to D&D. I vote no to this suggestion.

[Vivanto]

For those who know code, generating a probability string for a range from 2-14, is very simple, and it's actually MORE difficult to mimic the physical polyhedral dice probabilities. (i.e. ((1d8)+(1d8)) vs. 2-16).
Because addition, the only basic binary operation there is, is so process intensive :D

[Dark_Helmet]

There are a lot of ways to make each weapon more attractive other than mess up with the core rules.



Hi pot, meet kettle!

You were arguing how it WAS D&D for all the house rules they implement, so why are you arguing about rule changes?

I thought there were no core rules anymore - they are all house rules?

Heck, why don't we get guns and laser pistols now? They can sell them at $6 each (and ammo for .10 per shot). If you don't like them, don't use them.

http://www.biojobblog.com/uploads/image/slippery.png

[FluffyCalico]

nerf khopesh instead. That's the number one culprit

sweet

[Borror0]

You were arguing how it WAS D&D for all the house rules they implement, so why are you arguing about rule changes?
I never made that argument. My argument have always been "If it can be changed in a satisfactory manner without a core rule change, then the core rule change is not warranted." I have never made the argument that "DDO is not D&D and therefore all is allowed."

As much as possible, you don,t break the core rules but rule can be broken, if necessary.

[Noctus]

/not signed.


Absolutly nothing relevant to gain, besides alienating D&D players.

Bad idea.