Multiple PrE Levels for Bards?

[szaijan]

Has there been any dev discussion of multiple PrE levels for Bards, i.e. Spellsinger II, Spellsinger III, et. al.? If so, can anyone point me to a thread or threads covering the topic?

[Gum]

I haven't a clue bud, but I really hope they address this in the near future. I'm ready to see what they do with the bard PrEs.

[Zuldar]

I'd expect the earliest we'll see them is mod 10, if they lump them with the other caster pre. That's a best case scenario though.

[Aerendil]

Aside from the capstone that is aimed for DDO:EU release (aka mod), and the Virtuoso Enthrallment change that popped up in the sneak peak notes, that's the only mention of Bards I've read about.

Unless there was mention in a podcast somewhere. But nothing has formally been released/posted regarding Tier II and III PrEs yet AFAIK.

I'd imagine the devs are trying to figure a way to make Spellsinger II and III viable at level 20 when our max song is level 6, not to mention the possibility of Warchanter III offering +6dmg if it's a linear progression (so you'd have +12dmg songs or thereabouts) being possibly overpowered. And Virtuoso... well, who knows where they'll go with that one.

[szaijan]

EDIT: Thanks Aerendil. Cross posted before I saw your response.

Just some thoughts on where these might go.

Obviously, Spellsinger II and II would deal with spell casting advantages... spell penetration, meta-magic discounts, etc.

Spell Singer III:
- +1 Effective Maximum Spell Level (for purposes of Save DCs and Heighten)

Spell Singer III:
- +1 Effective Maximum Spell Level (for purposes of Save DCs and Heighten), for a total of +2

Warchanters might gain some bonuses to personal melee ability, and or a group attack speed buff that stacks with haste.

I really like the idea of giving Virtuoso a place among the other two PrEs. My thought for Virtuoso II/III are:
- Music of the Infinite: Fascinates any mob not immune to CC, regardless of type.
- Songs take 50% less time to complete (like Quicken for songs.)
- Song of Freedom, Inspire Competence affect the whole group.

[lOprahl]

Has there been any dev discussion of multiple PrE levels for Bards, i.e. Spellsinger II, Spellsinger III, et. al.? If so, can anyone point me to a thread or threads covering the topic?

Next to none.

The Warchanter / Spellsinger PrE stuff is a difficult problem to address, as songs affect all players in a party. Any song related enhancement improvements will need to be tested and tuned with all classes for balance. (Which with limited resources, would be quite the undertaking). For example...imagine a DC lvl 20 capstone wiz running with a Tier III spellsong...ya not going to happen.

Due to this, the likelyhood your going to see any bard updates in the foreseeable future is unrealistic.

"IMO
You might see a change/improvement to the Virtuoso, as it is the red headed bardic stepchild of all the PrE's."

Not to worry though. You can still be uber with the current PrE setup. Read the forums for ideas...best of luck.

[Freeman]

I expect we'll see them at some point, but for Warchanter and Spellsinger, the bonuses won't be nearly as much of an upgrade as what they received on the first tier. If you look at the Ranger Tempest enhancements, the most significant bonus(The 10% attack speed) is received on the first tier. Tier II only receives +1 Shield bonus and -1 attack penalty. Tier III may be a decent boost, but only because it grants additional attacks, but it is hard to say without seeing the numbers. I think the main issue is that they didn't plan for a three-tier system when they first started releasing prestige enhancements. With the ones they release all together(Tiers I, II, and III), it is easier to balance the power between them. When they only do them one at a time, they end up with a large disparity. Just look at the shift in power for the rogue enhancements when they released the second tier.

And yes, I hope they give Virtuoso some love as well, since it sadly lags behind the others.

[Lymnus]

...the bonuses won't be nearly as much of an upgrade as what they received on the first tier...
I'm not sure how much I agree with this statement.
Way of the Assassin I sucks. Hard. Way of the Assassin II is nice, Way of the Assassin III seems like it can be just as nice (vorpal quarterstaves anyone?).
Way of the Acrobat's main benefit is at the second tier. You take Acrobat for the immunity to slippery surfaces and quarterstaff speed, sometimes just the immunity.

With Tempest, you're right. But, it's possible that Virtuoso gets something nice at the third tier. Like a fascinate that doesn't have an animation, and isn't broken by damage.

Of course, that's overkill, but you get my point.

[Aerendil]

^^ Yep, exactly. Some PrEs are great at first tier (Tempest), some at second (Kensai, Acrobat), and some at third (well, can't think of any, but you get my point).

I'd imagine the Bard PrEs are a bit tricky to develop as they want to make them somewhat useful for a solo Bard, but not so useful as to overpower a group when combined with all of the other buffs available ingame. Quite a conundrum, I'm sure. But a simple "hey guys, we're working on the Bard PrEs, sit tight!" from Turbine would go a long way I'm sure. Nothing says love like silence from the devs.

PS - I'm really curious how the Enthrall is going to change Bardic life.
Having a chance to not break on damage may work really well with THF. Enthrall -> *thwack* with giant greataxe. Pause... *thwack* again. Mob dies.
Virtuoso giggles.

Sounds fun :) Almost like a mez + mini-hold person spell all in one.

[szaijan]

Not that I'd discourage it, but there's no reason the follow-on PrE levels for Bards need to impact the whole party. Some examples:

Spellsinger II: +1 Save DC on Enchant & Sonic Spells, +100 SP (total +200)
Spellsinger III: +1 Save DC on Enchant & Sonic Spells, +100 SP (total +300)

depending on the cost, I might add +1 to CHA Skill rolls to each.

With Warchanters, you might allow them to buy the first level of several combat enhancements available to melee classes, i.e.:

Tactics I, Armor Mastery I, Improved DR, etc.

Like the Arcane Archer Ranger line, W/C would get more than just a Warchanter II/II option, but would have multiple choices available at a lower cost. Warchanter III options would add the second level of those enhancements. In addition, +1 STR on each level would also seem appropriate, as Bards can otherwise only get STR from race.

I would save the improvement to songs for the Virtuoso, making them the best singers. I'm really enamored of the Song of the Infinite, posted above, as part of the Virtuoso line, and a meta-magic like effect on songs decreasing casting time and/or increasing radius. Make Virtuoso's unique in their song capabilities, and give them a real place in end-game CC, and you'll see the option make a comeback. In addition, a bonus to CHA skills for each level would fit with the Virtuoso line.

As for being "uber", not likely a concern for anyone choosing to play a Bard. W/C are the only ones who can come close to matching a specialist, but really our strength is in enhancing the group one way or another. Personal glory (and Kill Count) are usually not going to be the domain of a Bard. As a Spellsinger, I'd settle for "relevant" in the end game.

[hcarr]

I figured they would have to totally rework the bard pre all together

For warchanter change to working with what they already gave us.

+1 to hit +1 to damage each lvl (+3 to hit and damage)
Increas dr on song by 5 each lvl of pre.(15/dr- at tier 3)
+1 extra song for the number of rages you have

The access to melee class enhancments sounds nice also maybe include item defense. My weapons take more damage than any other melee I have.

Havnt really thought about a capstone. maybe +2 str, dr/- song last longer and get full 20 bab. I think that wouldnt be to overpowering but would have to make you really think about splashing.

edit
Maybe provide 2 different capstones one with +2 dex and the rest the same for finess or ranged builds.

[sirgog]

Just as Tempest 1 became weaker when Tempest 2 and 3 were released, I wouldn't be surprised if Warchanter changes as follows:


Warchanter 1: +1 attack, +1 damage, DR 5 song
Warchanter 2: +1 attack, +2 damage, new unique ability (so that gets the song bonuses up to where they are now)
Warchanter 3: +2 attack, +3 damage, new unique ability (or perhaps DR 10 song)