Devs: No problem hitting stuff-or-New Players: How to level your caster to level 2

[Creeper]

Because the Dev’s say that a concern many new player’s have is hitting things I decided to do a test.

Meet “Intimitank”. A level 1 Halfling wizard. His;

Stats:
6 str, 16 dex, 16 con, 18 int, 8 wis, & 8 cha

Feats:
Toughness & Extend spell

Spells:
Mage armor, Shield, Master’s Touch

I took the Greataxe at the beginning. I picked Halfling for the extra low strength. I just held down the right mouse button to complete the quests.

I soloed all the starting korthos quests on normal. I didn’t use a shrine, pots, scrolls, wands. I didn‘t use any equipment that wasn’t given to me at start. I will send you the links to screenshots if you don’t believe me, although I have no idea why anyone would doubt it.

Now let’s try on Hard:
http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll295/notaddam/ScreenShot00020.jpg
http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll295/notaddam/ScreenShot00021.jpg
http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll295/notaddam/ScreenShot00022.jpg
http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll295/notaddam/ScreenShot00023.jpg
http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll295/notaddam/ScreenShot00024.jpg


Ding! Solo to level 2.

I missed on anything lower than a five. Some monsters took as many as four swings to kill on hard.
The nameds took a little bit longer to chew on. The only problem I had was with the named on the crystal quest. On hard he shatters it with about four swings. Intimidate did not work on him.

So I have no complaints about not being able to hit things. I do have a complaint about the Cannith Crystal being too weak for a level one caster with six strength and a great axe to be able to solo the red named before the crystal shatters.

What’s the point of this thread? Any idiot should be able to hit things at level one. No modifications needed.

I’ll start in the harbor later this week. I may have to actually use things other than spamming attack, like tactics and common sense to complete the quests. I may even have to use a shrine or open some chests. I’ll keep you posted on my progress.

[Zenako]

Got to agree mostly on how it is not hard to hit.

However, I also agree with some posters in other threads, that the reported reason may not really have been missing the monster due to the D20 roll, which veterans understand and accept, but more like the new player was actually having trouble moving and swinging and actually engaging the target. That the new player would not realize that you get a -4 to when moving, which could more than offset any to hit bonus they had. That they would not appreciate the nuances of how some spells would boost to hit chances, how flanking would help too.

From what I hear, many other MMO's are not much complicated than moving into target range of the mob and then mashing the same button until the mob is dead, or you are dead. The complex and dynamix nature of DDO combat is such a different animal than they are used to, that when they apply their past experience paradigms from other games, they get bad results.

Now how can the game impart some of this knowledge to the new player. It is not easy. I recall one new player I was running with last winter. They were asking about how they could get to the cool stuff and actually fight dragons. They wanted to be doing it right away, and did not seem all that interested in getting a character up in level or in spending any time doing so. They came across as a player with little to no interest in RTFM about the game. Just wanted a quick pass to the "cool stuff". I tried to explain to them, that there was a natural evolution of characters as they level up, that in not too long a time they would of suitable power and levels to be doing that thing.

How does this relate? Well I take from it that many players have no interest in actually reading the rules or figuring stuff out, they just want to "play". Players who come to the game ready to read the manual or figure things out, generally have few problems. It is the instant gratification types that have those conflicts. Not sure there is ANY viable answer for those players, that does not render the game pointless for everyone else.

Just like those Yellow Books in the Store --- XXX for Dummies. Perhaps Turbine should consider a "special" instance of the game....DDO for Dummies, where no matter what you do....you win.

[Creeper]

I went ahead and leveled up to two. I took charm person as my spell. I have trained these enhancements so far:

Halfling - relex save +1
Wizard SP boost
Force/repair +10% dmg

With my new +1 base attack bonus and master's touch I have an impressive +1 total to attack now with my greataxe.

I picked up my +1 will save tiara from Gunnar Baurson then I ran The Cannith Crystal quest two additional times on solo. I wanted a couple extra pairs of the aid bracers in case I needed to heal myself. Aid will also give me an improved +1 to hit for a total of +2!!!!

I did Miller's Debt twice on solo. It took a roll of a 13 for a level two wizard with six strength to hit the end boss. It died quick. I looted 20 gold, 20 throwing daggers, 20 throwing hammers, and a master work wooden shield from the chest.

Then I loaded charm person up and went on to Osgood's Basement (Information is Key) on normal. I meleed the first doggie. I charmed the first rogue and while it was dealing with the 2nd doggie I pulled the lever and proceeded to the oozes.
Killed the oozes and the next four dogs with my trusty axe and shrined just in case. For the end boss I charmed the smugglers.

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll295/notaddam/ScreenShot00015.jpg

Took seven minutes cause of a bio break. Notice the full health bar.

I went on to repair my trusty axe and got a wand of mage armor for my end reward. I can now drop mage armor for magic missle for a while.

Then I did Kobold's Ringleader. In the progression of this dungeon I looted a pot of protection from evil, a shield of faith pot, a sonic resist pot, a cure light wounds pot, brakhash's axe, a +1 composite longbow, and a scroll of summon monster 1. I meleed everything until the last boss. Then I made excessive use of charm on the kobolds and hacked at him when he paused to recover from his rage. When he was raged I ran screaming like a little girl down the hall (aka "waited"). I did not die, he did. I did not use the second shrine.

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll295/notaddam/ScreenShot00018.jpg

I am now almost 2 action points into level 2. I have not died yet.
Other than end bosses I am doing fairly well with hitting and killing things with my axe.

To be continued!!

[sirdanile]

This sounds like a perma-death Challenge....


ah and greataxe>all start weapons.

[Creeper]

This sounds like a perma-death Challenge....


ah and greataxe>all start weapons.

I will continue to try not to die but not going to play as perma-death. I just want to prove that a level one wizard is able to hit everything at least 1/2 of the time at low levels even with six strength. He doesn't need any items other than what is given within the contents of each quest.

I also want to prove that it is actually quite easy to solo low level content with a caster. I plan to solo for quite a few levels even though this build is about the worst low level solo build I can think of.

[Jackal912]

Try doing it with a quarterstaff - the pathetic damage makes it considerably more challenging. Remove toughness, as well - most new casters don't get it. Lower the Dex, it's giving more AC than most nubbish casters get. Halflings get an AC bonus as well.. do it with a human despite the higher str, it'll prolly be harder. You'll probably still be able to solo a while, but it'll be significantly harder without your boosting HP and dex. Then, you have to throw in lack of skill with how the game plays, and how to use spells cleverly, and you have a very challenging experience. Accuracy alone is a tiny fraction of why a level 1-2 wizard is hard to play for a newbie :p

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Your test missed the point. The devs said that Korthos was fine (actually too easy) but that the problem was in Stormreach (ie - the older content...)

[Impaqt]

It's also very different going into these quests knowing what's up ahead and having a plan based on years of pre-knowledge. Most mages are not going to think about using a great axe(even though that is indeed the best thing to do).

As mentioned,korthos isn't the issue. Quests that people do over and over again are not necessarily the issue either. If your going to conduct a "new player" experiment, you need to play like a new player.

[Aranticus]

Your test missed the point. The devs said that Korthos was fine (actually too easy) but that the problem was in Stormreach (ie - the older content...)

isnt information and ringleader in harbor?

[Creeper]

Based on your replies I am going to roll up a human wizard and do the same thing with a quarterstaff. Should I mail one to myself???

Tell me how to gimp my character further. Seriously.

What do I need to do to prove my point?

What race/class/feats do you recommend?

[Creeper]

Try doing it with a quarterstaff - the pathetic damage makes it considerably more challenging. Remove toughness, as well - most new casters don't get it. Lower the Dex, it's giving more AC than most nubbish casters get. Halflings get an AC bonus as well.. do it with a human despite the higher str, it'll prolly be harder. You'll probably still be able to solo a while, but it'll be significantly harder without your boosting HP and dex. Then, you have to throw in lack of skill with how the game plays, and how to use spells cleverly, and you have a very challenging experience. Accuracy alone is a tiny fraction of why a level 1-2 wizard is hard to play for a newbie :p

What abilites should I dump in then if not con and dex? I would dump into str but....

What feats should I take? I definatly don't need toughness.

[ShadowHand2]

Got to agree mostly on how it is not hard to hit.

However, I also agree with some posters in other threads, that the reported reason may not really have been missing the monster due to the D20 roll, which veterans understand and accept, but more like the new player was actually having trouble moving and swinging and actually engaging the target. That the new player would not realize that you get a -4 to when moving, which could more than offset any to hit bonus they had. That they would not appreciate the nuances of how some spells would boost to hit chances, how flanking would help too.

From what I hear, many other MMO's are not much complicated than moving into target range of the mob and then mashing the same button until the mob is dead, or you are dead. The complex and dynamix nature of DDO combat is such a different animal than they are used to, that when they apply their past experience paradigms from other games, they get bad results.

Now how can the game impart some of this knowledge to the new player. It is not easy. I recall one new player I was running with last winter. They were asking about how they could get to the cool stuff and actually fight dragons. They wanted to be doing it right away, and did not seem all that interested in getting a character up in level or in spending any time doing so. They came across as a player with little to no interest in RTFM about the game. Just wanted a quick pass to the "cool stuff". I tried to explain to them, that there was a natural evolution of characters as they level up, that in not too long a time they would of suitable power and levels to be doing that thing.

How does this relate? Well I take from it that many players have no interest in actually reading the rules or figuring stuff out, they just want to "play". Players who come to the game ready to read the manual or figure things out, generally have few problems. It is the instant gratification types that have those conflicts. Not sure there is ANY viable answer for those players, that does not render the game pointless for everyone else.

Just like those Yellow Books in the Store --- XXX for Dummies. Perhaps Turbine should consider a "special" instance of the game....DDO for Dummies, where no matter what you do....you win.

What it comes down to is Turbine does NOT want new players to fail AT ALL! That want to lift causal and new players up by the boot straps and give them instant training wheels so they do not feel.....despairaged. Heaven forbid new and/or causal players now and in the next mod/update fail. They want them to have them level up a quickly as possible to be "equal" to veteran players to be able to jump on a play along side us. Sounds lovely and wonderful to log on and have all at your fingertips like is coming. Only that they leave out that 16th level toons should be learned at a slow pace. A reason for leveling that should be a rule of thumb is to level is to learn. Level up your builds to know their strengths and weakness beforehand. Not to surprise others when you join a group or raid that you have hardly a clue what you are doing.

Like a new player who leveled up a cleric so quick they had no clue they had a heal spell, or a mage type who is constantly casting cloud kill on skeletons. Sure we could guide them but how much "guide" to you give? And will they even listen to advice if you give? Some even said if you got issues with new players YOU should go back and help them out.....now its somehow our job to hold their hands. Now we have to go back to low level toons to "help" when there is no way of knowing they even plan on staying?
I personally do not mind helping here or there in someway, but the way of the near future, Turbine has ensured none will ever fail! They determine this last year to even the playing field at the cost of long timers efforts they have put into the game. A little effort and hard work never hurt anyone, unless you find effort and hard work beneath you. Are we suckers for going the hard way to earn things...seems so.

We trying to spread the wealth Turbine? You must have let your personal sensibility of a political persuasion to "eliminate the disparity" between the new players who want what veterans have without having to go through the motions of the working for it. They made it know they are entitled to all in the game like others who might spend 40+ hours in a week getting.....even if they only spend less then 10 hours a week. They will not come out and just say it for what it is about.....greed.

Envy, jealousy and many other negative traits they do not want to others seeing. Instead, we get a sugar-coated PC terms like "play style" or "fun". Using PC words to get around saying it for what it is makes it easier for people to not clue in what your really wanting...or should I say DEMANDING! Now I see the next on the long lists of WANTS is 32 point being a norm.....pieces of work I tell you....pieces of work. Not shameless at all are you?

Why stop there, why not demand veterans pay a tithe to new/causal players? Why not allow them to browse and pick and choose from a veterans bank while your at it? Seems if you stomp your feet loud enough Turbine gives in every single time. Good times ahead :)

PS : the use of you is not you personally but to new/causal players.

[VKhaun]

Congratulations. You purpose-built a character to hit 2 .

Now go back and make a caster like a noobie. Spend four points in cha to get rid of your 32pt build. Do not take master's touch. Take an attack spell. Take only one defense power. Select the fire wand of loldps at start. Now play it as a caster like a new player would.

The early game for casters is just stupid in even the best caster gear while melee types are bored to tears it's so easy even with horribly built and under-geared characters. Throwing on melee and doing well on 6str, caster BAB, a starter weapon, and 19ac is proving the issue is terrible, not solving or debunking it.

[Creeper]

Congratulations. You purpose-built a character to hit 2 .

Now go back and make a caster like a noobie. Spend four points in cha to get rid of your 32pt build. Do not take master's touch. Take an attack spell. Take only one defense power. Select the fire wand of loldps at start. Now play it as a caster like a new player would.

The early game for casters is just stupid in even the best caster gear while melee types are bored to tears it's so easy even with horribly built and under-geared characters. Throwing on melee and doing well on 6str, caster BAB, a starter weapon, and 19ac is proving the issue is terrible, not solving or debunking it.

Ok. I will.

Anyone have any other suggestions?

By the way VKhaun, what does your suggestion do to prove that things are not hard to hit with melee at low levels?

[Missing_Minds]

Ok. I will.

Anyone have any other suggestions?

By the way VKhaun, what does your suggestion do to prove that things are not hard to hit with melee at low levels?

Besides comments about how you are acting, sure. Take your creation into "information is key" do normal, hard, elite, as soon as you can enter the harbor. This should put you about lvl 2 or 3.

[Creeper]

Besides comments about how you are acting, sure. Take your creation into "information is key" do normal, hard, elite, as soon as you can enter the harbor. This should put you about lvl 2 or 3.

I actually plan on doing several different harbor quests. I want to make sure I have a build that everyone agrees on will prove my point first though.

Point #1: It is not hard to hit things at low levels even if you are a wizard with six strength.

Point #2: It is not that hard to level your caster solo.

What type of comments would you make about how I am acting?

[Missing_Minds]

I actually plan on doing several different harbor quests. I want to make sure I have a build that everyone agrees on will prove my point first though.

Point #1: It is not hard to hit things at low levels even if you are a wizard with six strength.

Point #2: It is not that hard to level your caster solo.

What type of comments would you make about how I am acting?

#1 that depends on what you are trying to hit. Seriously.
#2 I've never said it was, nor has solo ever been the point of grazing hits.

Many people have taken grazing hits and applied their own personal feelings and means to it. Granted I don't think the devs probably have done a rather good job explaining their position in detail either. That is the life as a dev and not pr.

My comments about how you are acting, based soley upon how you post here, are not worth the infactions. But emm.... I don't have any warning from Tarrant or Tolero... Naw. You aren't worth it. I missed out on getting Kommunity Kobold to sign my warning list. Still sad about that one. (yeah.. I lead a sad life, go me.)

[Creeper]

My comments about how you are acting, based soley upon how you post here, are not worth the infactions. But emm.... I don't have any warning from Tarrant or Tolero... Naw. You aren't worth it. I missed out on getting Kommunity Kobold to sign my warning list. Still sad about that one. (yeah.. I lead a sad life, go me.)

Lol, are you serious? What have I said that was ummm, bad? Not trying to goad you or anything. :)

Send me a pm if you want. I honestly just re-read through the entire thread and don't see anything I have posted that would make someone say that.

Edit: Also, you are the first person here to mention grazing hits.

[cluedout]

Congratulations. You purpose-built a character to hit 2 .

Now go back and make a caster like a noobie. Spend four points in cha to get rid of your 32pt build. Do not take master's touch. Take an attack spell. Take only one defense power. Select the fire wand of loldps at start. Now play it as a caster like a new player would.

The early game for casters is just stupid in even the best caster gear while melee types are bored to tears it's so easy even with horribly built and under-geared characters. Throwing on melee and doing well on 6str, caster BAB, a starter weapon, and 19ac is proving the issue is terrible, not solving or debunking it.

the point of this is melee, not a newb caster. the point of being a caster is the low bab and non proficiency of martial weapons. those are totally separate issues, if the devs make it so that the only choice of weapon out of the totorial the greataxe, the problem would be solved because if u have 6 str you will still hit things at lvl 1 on elite in korthos. AC is also not the issue, its all about to hit and apposing AC. possibly force new players to play an instructional video on how to get up close and personal to a kobold, stop moving and right click. if the kobold jumps back as they always seem to do, move up to the kobold, stop moving and right click again,

[kaidendager]

While I admire what you are trying to prove Creeper, I believe you are missing the forest for the trees.

The announcement that players leaving the game had complained about not being able to hit has nothing to do with actually being able to hit or not. As you said you missed on a 5 or lower, it is likely that that very figure was considered "not fun enough" for those filling out the exit survey.

I find a larger flaw with gathering data from dissatisfied customers and forcing proposed changes on a satisfied player base. The flaw comes from how such participants are selected and not from their opinions.

Good luck with your experiment Creeper!

[Creeper]

While I admire what you are trying to prove Creeper, I believe you are missing the forest for the trees.

The announcement that players leaving the game had complained about not being able to hit has nothing to do with actually being able to hit or not. As you said you missed on a 5 or lower, it is likely that that very figure was considered "not fun enough" for those filling out the exit survey.

I find a larger flaw with gathering data from dissatisfied customers and forcing proposed changes on a satisfied player base. The flaw comes from how such participants are selected and not from their opinions.

Good luck with your experiment Creeper!

Thank you! I honestly have not meant to offend anyone with this thread. Sorry if I come off that way.

I will continue to do this with various builds and weapons that others have mentioned and post my results here.

I do figure that things will start to get much harder for me to hit when I start doing level four and five dungeons. By that time, of course, I will have a nice selection of spells. I could also join a group or hire a hireling.

[Noctus]

I find a larger flaw with gathering data from dissatisfied customers and forcing proposed changes on a satisfied player base. The flaw comes from how such participants are selected and not from their opinions.

I am currently studying for the german academic degree equivalent of an MBA, with a focus on Marketing. And one important part in my focus is how to do market research and customer research, and how to interpret the data you gathered.


One problem with evaluation data from people who do not use your product is the inherent selection bias of this group. Especially dangerous for niche market providers is adjusting their product to get closer to the not-users to get a bigger share of them to use your product, while in the same process watering down their niche status and thus endangering their unique product abilities which made it possible to be successfull in the nieche in the 1st place. Often such tactics leave products stuck in the undesirable middle between niche market and mainstream provider.


In this graph of Porter´s Generic Strategies the white area (aka cessation land):
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e3/PorterGenericStrategies.png


DDO was always a MMO with a steep learning curve, but that also was what made me play it. Instead of one of the other two dozen other MMOs out there who cater for the "no need to RTFM, simply hop in and start grinding you way to all-characters-alike Überness" in slightly different flavors.

The changes Turbine is currently implementing will reposition DDO closer to the mass market. Which is by itself not bad, as we need more players. But i also fear that they could overdo the repositioning and land in Cessationland.

[GlassCannon]

Based on your replies I am going to roll up a human wizard and do the same thing with a quarterstaff. Should I mail one to myself???

Tell me how to gimp my character further. Seriously.

What do I need to do to prove my point?

What race/class/feats do you recommend?

Halfling Sorc, 6/10/18/18/8/8. Take Power Attack and use the Moldy Quarterstaff.

[Grond]

It's also very different going into these quests knowing what's up ahead and having a plan based on years of pre-knowledge. Most mages are not going to think about using a great axe(even though that is indeed the best thing to do).

As mentioned,korthos isn't the issue. Quests that people do over and over again are not necessarily the issue either. If your going to conduct a "new player" experiment, you need to play like a new player.

Yeah, most new players are going to see an ogre for the first time in Kobold's New Ringleader (maybe ww). They won't know ahead of time that they need to charm a mass of cannon fodder, or evade the "triple swing of doom in 3d." In Information is Key, he just left a charmed mob to deal with the first dog and ran ahead, something someone is brand new to the dungeon is very unlikely to do, since they a) don't already know where the hidden lever is and b) don't know that any surviving bad guys can't follow them. He also chose spells for AC, something most beginners aren't likely to do. I've never seen a newbie caster without at least one offensive spell, and only ever seen experenced players make melee casters.

Familiarity with a dungeon drasticly increases survival, and has more to do with it than build/equipment, IMO.

[baddax]

Yeah, most new players are going to see an ogre for the first time in Kobold's New Ringleader (maybe ww). They won't know ahead of time that they need to charm a mass of cannon fodder, or evade the "triple swing of doom in 3d." In Information is Key, he just left a charmed mob to deal with the first dog and ran ahead, something someone is brand new to the dungeon is very unlikely to do, since they a) don't already know where the hidden lever is and b) don't know that any surviving bad guys can't follow them. He also chose spells for AC, something most beginners aren't likely to do. I've never seen a newbie caster without at least one offensive spell, and only ever seen experenced players make melee casters.

Familiarity with a dungeon drasticly increases survival, and has more to do with it than build/equipment, IMO.

You left out one important part. They likely do not know how Hard these suckers hit!
Ive seen these guys wind up and take out the whole front line of melees like they were a defensive lineman blitzing down on a unsuspecting QB (aka the caster)!

[Lorien_the_First_One]

isnt information and ringleader in harbor?

The OP said that the experiment was in Korthos and that they would 'start in the harbor' next

[BlackSteel]

I'm honestly not sure what you're getting at. If this is a condemnation of one of the reasons for glancing blows then you're already going about it all wrong. Of course you're not going to be effected by it at level 1 on a 6 str muskrat; you're playing in korthos on solo/norm. If you want to prove that the change enables that 6 str character to solo stuff it shouldnt, then go into a quest with moderate AC enemies on elite. Hit the armored dogs in information is key on elite. Which I have the feeling that new system will make a drastic change to you being able to solo those critters between live and beta.

We all know the real reason for the glancing blow mechanic isnt for lowbies, so stop arguing with it as such.

[Missing_Minds]

Lol, are you serious? What have I said that was ummm, bad? Not trying to goad you or anything. :)

Send me a pm if you want. I honestly just re-read through the entire thread and don't see anything I have posted that would make someone say that.

Edit: Also, you are the first person here to mention grazing hits.

Emm... I may have to rethink some of my early thoughts about you now. That would be nice to happen.

When the Devs stated they were worried about players ablity to hit things, it wasn't so much for people who know the game backwards and forwards, it was more for the people that don't know DnD PnP rules coming from more MMOs (such as Lotro where I can make a weak character, but still be able to hit most of the time, just doing squat for damage.), characters with low BAB (such as arcanes) that are out of SP but don't want to feel utterly useless, or cases like really high AC creatures like the guardian in STK, blackbone warriors, blackguards (in tempest spine) where a lot of people sit around the target and wiff wiff wiff wiff. (is this last part still really common like it used to be? Not any more in my opinion, but then I'm a long time player who's been here for the treasure power creap that came with higher levels and the AH.)

This is why they stuck in glancing blows. (one of the reasons) Was this NOT what you were trying to prove was useless to add in? Because after reading your later comments... I'm trying to figure out exactly which "new feature" you were trying to disprove, and sounds like you may have gotten a little confused. I know I am right now.

[imanujakku]

this seems more like a change for mid to high level characters that are not min maxed or built unconventionally on purpose and they find themselves unable to damage certain mobs.

i dont think korthos is a good case study its meant to just get the player familiar with game and not frustrate them. i would choose a suboptimal build and try to run the mid level content on hard/elite. For example my first character is a rogue a found in catacombs on elite i found myself whiffing regularly on some of the higher AC skeleton knights even while flanking with +2/+2 light maces, weapon finesse, 18 dex etc. i really didnt have a problem with it, i enjoy the challenge but i could see someone who is not familiar with min/maxing or wanting to play an suboptimal build frustrated.

[Creeper]

Halfling Sorc, 6/10/18/18/8/8. Take Power Attack and use the Moldy Quarterstaff.

Can't take power attack with 0 bab and I would need 13 strength to take at level 3.

[Creeper]

The OP said that the experiment was in Korthos and that they would 'start in the harbor' next

The third post in the thread was about my first three harbor quests.

[Creeper]

I'm honestly not sure what you're getting at. If this is a condemnation of one of the reasons for glancing blows then you're already going about it all wrong. Of course you're not going to be effected by it at level 1 on a 6 str muskrat; you're playing in korthos on solo/norm. If you want to prove that the change enables that 6 str character to solo stuff it shouldnt, then go into a quest with moderate AC enemies on elite. Hit the armored dogs in information is key on elite. Which I have the feeling that new system will make a drastic change to you being able to solo those critters between live and beta.

We all know the real reason for the glancing blow mechanic isnt for lowbies, so stop arguing with it as such.

Are you suggesting that a character with + two attack SHOULD be able to hit things on elite quests? You know the "normal" setting is for a same leveled group of 4-6 people?

I think a level 2 character with +2 to attack should have a BIG problem hitting things on elite.

[Creeper]

this seems more like a change for mid to high level characters that are not min maxed or built unconventionally on purpose and they find themselves unable to damage certain mobs.

i dont think korthos is a good case study its meant to just get the player familiar with game and not frustrate them. i would choose a suboptimal build and try to run the mid level content on hard/elite. For example my first character is a rogue a found in catacombs on elite i found myself whiffing regularly on some of the higher AC skeleton knights even while flanking with +2/+2 light maces, weapon finesse, 18 dex etc. i really didnt have a problem with it, i enjoy the challenge but i could see someone who is not familiar with min/maxing or wanting to play an suboptimal build frustrated.

Out of curiosity what level were you?

[cluedout]

Halfling Sorc, 6/10/18/18/8/8. Take Power Attack and use the Moldy Quarterstaff.

sorc is proficient with Q'staff, i say go with the longsword and as soon as another one is found/transfered, a second longsward. so yes 8/10/18/18/8/8 is very gimp but id recomend 6/8/8/18/18/8 as the con is just a bit too high. lets see just how much of a negative to-hit that is XD.

on a different note, it says in the description of sorc that it takes 10+ spell lvl charisma to cast so id say put some points into it as i dont think anyone is that stupid and if they are, they will ask someone and anyone and thr grandma could tell them.

ahh this reminds me of the time when some friends and i were trying to make the lowest endgame possible HP, turned out to be a 15 wiz 1 monk with wind stance, on a drow with 6 con ( i forget what ellse we used to lower hp but it was alot. he made it to the shroud part 4 with just 10 HP and not much you can do when the blades 1 shot ya. (lol more temp hp the regular hp), dam that developed the twich skills to the hilt, id recommend that to anyone.

[Creeper]

Emm... I may have to rethink some of my early thoughts about you now. That would be nice to happen.

When the Devs stated they were worried about players ablity to hit things, it wasn't so much for people who know the game backwards and forwards, it was more for the people that don't know DnD PnP rules coming from more MMOs (such as Lotro where I can make a weak character, but still be able to hit most of the time, just doing squat for damage.), characters with low BAB (such as arcanes) that are out of SP but don't want to feel utterly useless, or cases like really high AC creatures like the guardian in STK, blackbone warriors, blackguards (in tempest spine) where a lot of people sit around the target and wiff wiff wiff wiff. (is this last part still really common like it used to be? Not any more in my opinion, but then I'm a long time player who's been here for the treasure power creap that came with higher levels and the AH.)

This is why they stuck in glancing blows. (one of the reasons) Was this NOT what you were trying to prove was useless to add in? Because after reading your later comments... I'm trying to figure out exactly which "new feature" you were trying to disprove, and sounds like you may have gotten a little confused. I know I am right now.

I hope so :)

Of course in my defense, knowing the game backward and forward I still had a +1 to attack. Knowledge of the game doesn't help you land hits unless you are running around the mobs in circles while swinging. It doesn't take long to figure out that that doesn't work :D

The reason hitting things isn't such a big problem anymore, like you mentioned, is because they lowered the AC of most mobs a long time ago.

I never mentioned any "new feature" or anything like that.

[Missing_Minds]

I hope so :)

Of course in my defense, knowing the game backward and forward I still had a +1 to attack. Knowledge of the game doesn't help you land hits unless you are running around the mobs in circles while swinging. It doesn't take long to figure out that that doesn't work :D

The reason hitting things isn't such a big problem anymore, like you mentioned, is because they lowered the AC of most mobs a long time ago.

I never mentioned any "new feature" or anything like that.

Then... at this point you are trying to prove... nothing?

[FluffyCalico]

Your test missed the point. The devs said that Korthos was fine (actually too easy) but that the problem was in Stormreach (ie - the older content...)

If you can't hit stuff in the harbor at level 3 you have seirious issues with your toon or how you play it as you can easily be 3 by the time you leave the island. Alot of 3s are doing STK and TR and other market/house quests by then. You should have NO issue with the harbor at level 3 even with a starter build.

[cluedout]

another thing... why do people go back to being caster? this is not about caster, this is about mele. OP is trying to make the gimpiest mele which in this case turns out to be a wiz with a 6 str. If a wiz with a 6 strength can hit things with a great axe, that is a big problem. just try that in pnp, everyone will get ****ed and you wont hit a dam thing.

however, the devs have made it so that unless you are a very good player, you must take the great axe to solo korthos on a caster. if you party in korthos, give it about 45 mins no matter what you are, and you will have evreything done on elite and would be almost to lvl 3 if not already lvl 3.

[Creeper]

Lol, what would that prove though? That a sorc dual wielding long swords can't hit things very well? He SHOULDN'T be able to right? I'll try this though just to see how far i get. A sorc with no charisma and mail myself an extra longsword. No spells.
How far do you think he should be able to get within the game?

[FluffyCalico]

[QUOTE=Noctus;2271760]
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e3/PorterGenericStrategies.png


Change the top to MMO players, buttom left to DnD fans, and Buttom right to Word of mouth and the path in the middle will be who will like DDO in mod 9 and where their additional players will come from.

[cluedout]

i think we can use this as a project to see what exactly is the AC of mobs on korthos. is it 0? is it negative? and op lol im not sure how far you will get with 2 longswards no TWF feat, and a 6 str. lol should take combat expertise as the lvl 1 feat as well.

[Creeper]

Then... at this point you are trying to prove... nothing?

I am quoting myself here all things I have said in this thread.



What’s the point of this thread? Any idiot should be able to hit things at level one. No modifications needed.

I am now almost 2 action points into level 2. I have not died yet.
Other than end bosses I am doing fairly well with hitting and killing things with my axe.

"I just want to prove that a level one wizard is able to hit everything at least 1/2 of the time at low levels even with six strength. He doesn't need any items other than what is given within the contents of each quest.

I also want to prove that it is actually quite easy to solo low level content with a caster."


I actually plan on doing several different harbor quests. I want to make sure I have a build that everyone agrees on will prove my point first though.

Point #1: It is not hard to hit things at low levels even if you are a wizard with six strength.

Point #2: It is not that hard to level your caster solo.

[cluedout]

lol now i know how we are gunna take care of things at lowbe lvl's on casters. grab a 1 handed weapon with the highest base damage (bastard sward i believe 1d10) and have at it with the grazing hits.

[FluffyCalico]

How far do you think he should be able to get within the game?

About 1-2 mobs. Sadly you might get off the island and join some unsuspecting group of people with a clue. Well didn't mean you don't have a clue, just that anyone who thinking dual weilding at level 1 is a great idea on a low str toon is not someone I want to make it long enough to join one of my groups. I prey that build would die badly.

[Missing_Minds]

Lol, what would that prove though? That a sorc dual wielding long swords can't hit things very well? He SHOULDN'T be able to right? I'll try this though just to see how far i get. A sorc with no charisma and mail myself an extra longsword. No spells.
How far do you think he should be able to get within the game?

you won't be able to complete all of the harbor quests. Korthos shouldn't be too much of an issue.


I am quoting myself here all things I have said in this thread.

Yeap. Korthos won't be an issue. Harbor and beyond, you are toast.

But then again.. these things we have KNOWN.

Emm.... but I am curuios. how far could you get with your gimpness AND hirelings?

[sirdanile]

this seems more like a change for mid to high level characters that are not min maxed or built unconventionally on purpose and they find themselves unable to damage certain mobs.

i dont think korthos is a good case study its meant to just get the player familiar with game and not frustrate them. i would choose a suboptimal build and try to run the mid level content on hard/elite. For example my first character is a rogue a found in catacombs on elite i found myself whiffing regularly on some of the higher AC skeleton knights even while flanking with +2/+2 light maces, weapon finesse, 18 dex etc. i really didnt have a problem with it, i enjoy the challenge but i could see someone who is not familiar with min/maxing or wanting to play an suboptimal build frustrated.


Those skeletons have always been hard to hit, harder in my opinion than the skeleton knights because they jump around like monkies on drugs.



A typical newbie wouldnt gimp himself with custom options... he'd pick the coolest sounding premade path.
pick either the wand of firepoking or the handwraps(wraps to prove melee) because neither have an exclamation point on them... For ringleader (as an example) use a newbies tactics...aka dont jump over the crates, beat everything in sight down, no charm unless its part of the premade, a newbie wouldnt expect to get 1 shotted by an ogre, so act like a newbie would the time after, backpedaling and fire that wand or magic missles at it trying to live. also stay moving a lot, a big problem with newbies is that they keep moving while swinging when they honestly cant afford the penalty.

[Creeper]

Ok, I rerolled.

Level 1 halfling Sorc

6 str
13 dex
14 con
16 wis
17 int
8 charisma

I took skill focus: swim as my feat

I sold my ring of waterbreathing and apprentice's robe and bought a longsword at the harbor vendor.

I now have

-10 attack 1d8 + -2 main hand

and

-15 attack and 1d8 + -2 off hand


Wish me luck!!!

Hope this build is gimp enough for you all.

Edit: Since so many are concerned with glancing blows I will also make the same build on the Beta and post the results.

[Creeper]

Lol, took a roll of a 15 to hit the guys in Cannith Crystal with my main hand.

I made it all the way to the last boss and he killed me really fast after shattering the crystal.

Then I went to the scroll/puzzle one. Same deal. Took a 13 to hit the spiders. Made it fairly easily to the end boss and then he Niac'ed me. Ouch. Dead.

Looks like a fail with - 10 and -15 to hit.

It appears the mobs have an ac around 5 on normal.

I tried again on solo. I noticed NO difference at all! Same results. I just died a little slower.

So, I think I have reached the threshold. A level 1 caster that is unable to cast spells and dual wields 2 weapons he is not proficient in can not succeed in the current game with starter equipment.

FAIL!

Now I will try the same build on the beta……

Wish me luck!

[cluedout]

Ok, I rerolled.

Level 1 halfling Sorc

6 str
13 dex
14 con
16 wis
17 int
8 charisma

I took skill focus: swim as my feat

I sold my ring of waterbreathing and apprentice's robe and bought a longsword at the harbor vendor.

I now have

-10 attack 1d8 + -2 main hand

and

-15 attack and 1d8 + -2 off hand


Wish me luck!!!

Hope this build is gimp enough for you all.

Edit: Since so many are concerned with glancing blows I will also make the same build on the Beta and post the results.


could go with combat expertise and make that -15/-20

[Creeper]

could go with combat expertise and make that -15/-20

Wouldn't be able to take till level 3. Also it wouldn't give me the full -5 to hit with only 1 bab.

[Creeper]

VERY INTERESTING!

It took a roll of a 20 to hit the spiders.

I will discuss THIS further on the beta forums.

[cluedout]

i belive the only requirement for combat expertise is 13 intelligence lemme go check the char planner, 1 sec

edit: yup anything with a 13 int or higher can take combat expertise at lvl 1

[GlassCannon]

VERY INTERESTING!

It took a roll of a 20 to hit the spiders.

I will discuss THIS further on the beta forums.

Whoever coded Vermin Scaling needs to be clubbed repeatedly until they stop twitching.

Then the blood needs to be cleaned off the floor. Blasted sadistic cruel bastage...

...and I thought VON 3 was bad...

[Missing_Minds]

i belive the only requirement for combat expertise is 13 intelligence lemme go check the char planner, 1 sec

edit: yup anything with a 13 int or higher can take combat expertise at lvl 1

the OP was still correct. What good is CE going to do you with a BAB of 0? yeah.. nada. There would be no difference with it on or off.

[cluedout]

the OP was still correct. What good is CE going to do you with a BAB of 0? yeah.. nada. There would be no difference with it on or off.

sorry, was just testing it, i is nub, disreguard my advice plz...

[Missing_Minds]

VERY INTERESTING!

It took a roll of a 20 to hit the spiders.

I will discuss THIS further on the beta forums.

Interesting... Thank you for that catch. *chuckles* oh the old brown princes... I don't think any other monster ever had players actually groan in fear near as much. They really were Elite creatures that could shred the best of players on the best of builds.

[VKhaun]

By the way VKhaun, what does your suggestion do to prove that things are not hard to hit with melee at low levels?



another thing... why do people go back to being caster? this is not about caster, this is about mele. OP is trying to make the gimpiest mele which in this case turns out to be a wiz with a 6 str. If a wiz with a 6 strength can hit things with a great axe, that is a big problem. just try that in pnp, everyone will get ****ed and you wont hit a dam thing.

I'm not out to 'prove' anything.

I was just saying your test doesn't really follow your post. People don't roll wizards to hit things in melee and have lots of other troubles to worry about, being a lowbie caster. The only use you had for picking the caster class was to lower your ability to survive and/or land hits for the sake of the test... but then you buffed yourself up and used a race with +1 all saves. Six strength is also equal to regular base eight strength in terms of your to-hit, in the hands of a halfling with their +1 bonus.

Your results and experiment are totally outside anything the devs would be considerring when making that statement in your first post.


If you wanted to see what they see, you would roll an actual melee character and use only what he finds. But we already know how that goes. An ember greataxe on 16/18str will two-shot everything just by accident and you don't miss. +2 set, +1 goggles, you don't see 'miss' much in norm harbor quests either.

IMHO, the trouble is from a 'known' content drop at around lv4. You finish the harbor and korthos on normal, do cerulean hills, do WW twice, you're about lv4, and -as a new player- you're like... NOW WHAT? You go into the market but catacombs is lv2 and a pain, and STK rewards are **** so you take the +4reflex goggles or the +2int helm and don't want to go do it again. Thus everyone is trying to do Irestone or harbor junk on elite before they can, and whine when they miss constantly. If you try to look around the market you find a boss that you probably can't solo on hard down by STK, a bunch of spiders and traps killing your stats, and two of the hardest quests in the game that players wait until they greatly out-level in the quick foot hideout and proof is in the poison.

IMHO again, they should bump up STK and Catacombs loot. Put in a harbor quest requiring lv3, to talk to Ungurz up at Splinterskull (and the guy in the tavern before you get to him so you can port) that gives a reward choice of 'lv4 required' equipment when you reach him. Put in a lv3 required quest to talk and choose emerald or silver flame trinkets in the necropolis with some info on what they will turn into, again with a 'lv4 required' reward choice that comes with your trinket.

There's a ton of harbor level or just a bit higher content a new player never finds out about until they're well above it, and no one likes banging their head against the wall trying to beat the same harbor quests on elite where they always save, you blow out your power bar, and the tanks are missing a lot...








EDIT---
Oh wow page3 now.
Sorry. ^^

[Creeper]

If you wanted to see what they see, you would roll an actual melee character and use only what he finds. But we already know how that goes. An ember greataxe on 16/18str will two-shot everything just by accident and you don't miss. +2 set, +1 goggles, you don't see 'miss' much in norm harbor quests either.


Right. Isn't that the point I made though? If a caster with +2 to hit can hit things with a Greataxe, then it would be easier for a melee character.

What is it you are suggesting that I do?

Do you want me to roll a caster and only use spells? I have done that about a dozen times I should say. My first character was a wizard. My second was a rogue. I can do again and post the results if you would like.

Do you want me to make a melee and do even better than my caster did?

What class/race etc. would you have used for the test. I am not sure what you are getting at.

[Creeper]

IMHO again, they should bump up STK and Catacombs loot. Put in a harbor quest requiring lv3, to talk to Ungurz up at Splinterskull (and the guy in the tavern before you get to him so you can port) that gives a reward choice of 'lv4 required' equipment when you reach him. Put in a lv3 required quest to talk and choose emerald or silver flame trinkets in the necropolis with some info on what they will turn into, again with a 'lv4 required' reward choice that comes with your trinket.

There's a ton of harbor level or just a bit higher content a new player never finds out about until they're well above it, and no one likes banging their head against the wall trying to beat the same harbor quests on elite where they always save, you blow out your power bar, and the tanks are missing a lot...

Truely sorry, but again I don't see that this has anything to do with this thread?

[Theboz]

Just like those Yellow Books in the Store --- XXX for Dummies. Perhaps Turbine should consider a "special" instance of the game....DDO for Dummies, where no matter what you do....you win.



Thats called Mod 9

[Dark_Helmet]

I think the suggestions are good:
Use the pre-made characters, take a typical item (wand for caster), Don't two weapon fight.


Casters are prime for your testing, but it should be a given that a caster's power grows as they level up (I know, that is debatable but seems to be the focus of tests).

We know that melee types should be able to handle anything so they are out as test cases.


N00bs who know a little about D&D probably think a cleric can melee and cast some as well.

Rogues are popular for n00bs and used to be the big complaint (they had major issues getting thru the older version of these quests).


Therefore, I think you should use a pre-generated rogue for your testing.
Also, keep the tips on and look for what they are saying about running the character.

[AldaronTavish]

What point don't people get. He's not trying to prove anything about builds. He's trying to prove that even the worst built melee character (a 6 str Wiz) can do just fine hitting things. ANY normal melee build can hit just fine.

So really he's just proving that the grazing blow change isn't needed for lowbies but like others have said is probably for the high end mega-AC builds that mobs can't hit.

[Creeper]

What point don't people get. He's not trying to prove anything about builds. He's trying to prove that even the worst built melee character (a 6 str Wiz) can do just fine hitting things. ANY normal melee build can hit just fine.


Bingo, Thank you!

I am going to try the premade rogue build idea though. That sounds like fun.

[VKhaun]

What point don't people get. He's not trying to prove anything about builds. He's trying to prove that even the worst built melee character (a 6 str Wiz) can do just fine hitting things. ANY normal melee build can hit just fine.

1) This never needed to be proven on korthos. No one judges the game by lv2. It needs to be proven to where classes hit their stride, if not perhaps getting to 16 for the first time.

2) He 'proved' it outside anything players do. A caster with **** melee stats but spells picked to buff up for melee... is nothing. It has no bearing on anything. No dev is sitting down making decisions about korthos based on what new mages with gimp strength can do in combat when they select all buffs for themselves to try and be up for it. It's not a low-end test when he buffs himself. It's not a realistic test when he gimps himself. It's closer to random stats then low ones. You say a normal character would be pointless... I say that if that's the case then the test was pointless and see #1.

3) The 'proof' never needed to be of a statistical fact, AC, to-hit, success with a good/bad build, or anything on paper to begin with. This is a new player concern. You can't beat korthos as any build and pretend you've made a point about what new players typically feel. They're new, they don't have the same frame of reference as you do from experience, for how often they should hit or miss, die, travel time, etc. You can make mages with gimp strength and dual wield all day long, you still won't hold a candle to direct feedback from lots of people.

4) The topic did not drop out of thin air. The devs made a statement about what new players tend to feel. Comments the original poster and others have replied to with confusion are obviously speaking on that issue directly, in the same way he attempted to speak on it with his experiment.

I for one think it has nothing to do with the dice or builds and everything to do with what players are attempting to hit. By lv4 noobs are re-doing all the same content but trying to do ELITE, because the game direction dead-ends at the market and STK (where WW's sends you next). You can't solve this by making elite easier to hit, because then it wouldn't be elite. Hence my comments about linking to other low-level content that he didn't understand.

[Creeper]

I picked a Dwarf and picked "The Dark Blade". This seemed like the coolest sounding therefore most likely for a new guy to probaly pick. I am afraid it is too Uber though.

Stats are :
14
16
16
14
8
8

Is this satisfactory or should I try thief acrobat or the trap one to solo with? Is dwarf ok or should I pick something else?

Speak now or forever hold your peace.

[Creeper]

1) This never needed to be proven on korthos.

2) He 'proved' it outside anything players do. A caster with **** melee stats but spells picked to buff up for melee... is nothing. It has no bearing on anything. No dev is sitting down making decisions about korthos based on what new mages can do in combat when they buff themselves up for it.

3) The 'proof' never needed to be of a fact to begin with. This is a new player concern. You can't beat korthos as any build and pretend you've made a point about what new players typically feel. They're new, they don't have the same frame of reference for how often they should hit or miss.

4) The topic did not drop out of thin air. The devs made a statement about what new players tend to feel. Comments the original poster and others have replied to with confusion are obviously speaking on that issue directly, in the same way he attempted to speak on it with his experiment.

I for one think it has nothing to do with the dice or builds and everything to do with what players are attempting to hit. By lv4 noobs are re-doing all the same content but trying to do ELITE, because the game directlion dead-ends at the market and STK (where WW's sends you next). You can't solve this by making elite easier to hit, because then it wouldn't be elite. Hence my comments he didn't understand.

RED LIGHT!

I was doing Harbor quests and people told me to back up cause my build was too awesome.

You really can't argue with me about what I was trying to comment on. I am me and I know.

Ok, seriously, tell me what build the devs are using then.

I was new once. I remember doing WW and STK and Redwillow and Redfang and catacombs before they lowered the AC.

I can honestly say that I looked for other quests to do and did them. The new player experience you have described to me is not what I experienced. I am sure you know several new players that do grind the harbor out on elite for exp at level 1-4 though.
I can only speak on my personal experience. I would also say that if you are a newbie player and do ok on normal, then do sorta ok on hard, then elite you can't hit anything it may be a good idea to take a step back and do some other quests on normal and hard first. That is just me however.

There are a lot of low level dungeons outside the harbor. You don't have to grind out favor at low levels. All you have to do is look for them. It's hard not to find them. I understand that everyone will have a different, unique, new player experience of their own.


Trial and error folks.

[VKhaun]

^
Looks good. How high will you level it to?

[sirdanile]

Sounds fine, though as a new player i'd stereo-typically pick a female elf, halfling, or human for it.
dwarf works just as well I suppose.

[Favis]

I picked a Dwarf and picked "The Dark Blade". This seemed like the coolest sounding therefore most likely for a new guy to probaly pick. I am afraid it is too Uber though.

Stats are :
14
16
16
14
8
8

Is this satisfactory or should I try thief acrobat or the trap one to solo with? Is dwarf ok or should I pick something else?

Speak now or forever hold your peace.
Master Mechanic

hafling =)

[Creeper]

Master Mechanic

hafling =)

At midnight tonight I will count all the build choices. Whichever has the most I will pick.

[cluedout]

well, if i was a new person, i would not know what non-proficiency was and personally i would pick the biggest brawniest thing available. WF barb and yes, starting with a greataxe... lets see, feats prolly power attack. i never have made a pre-made build, not my style, so max strength, look at the other stats and rest into con after reading all the descriptions that other stats are for sissies.

thats exactly what i did when i started this game 2+ years ago. lol he has long since been deleted for the better looking female 1/2lings/elves/humans but that is what i learned the game with.

[cluedout]

At midnight tonight I will count all the build choices. Whichever has the most I will pick.

1/2ling assasin, that sounds badazz to me right now, i might just have to roll one up (custom of course :))

[Creeper]

1/2ling assasin, that sounds badazz to me right now, i might just have to roll one up (custom of course :))

Wanna do the template version and play w/ me on G server? We can be each other's witness.

[gaki]

The OP is missing the boat, I think.

It isn't that you CAN get to lvl 2 and off the island with what you are given, it is that you have to build your caster with the limitations of the game in mind. You have to know enough to take Master's Touch out of the gate or to do the tutorial and get the moldy quarterstaff.

And how fun is it for a sorc to take Master's Touch out of the gate and PAY to remove it once they hit Stormreach because of some artificial construct in the game mechanics on Korthos?

There are two simple fixes:

a) bump the finger of flame wand to 1d6. Now you have a wand that does the same amt. of damage as the next lowest weapon on the list, at a distance, but with the tradeoff of having only 50 charges per rest.

b) get rid of the wand altogether and put a flaming quarterstaff up there and be done with it.

With either option, you no longer need MT, you no longer need to do the tutorial and you can build your caster as YOU choose, not as the game railroads you.

[Jaywade]

The announcement that players leaving the game had complained about not being able to hit has nothing to do with actually being able to hit or not. As you said you missed on a 5 or lower, it is likely that that very figure was considered "not fun enough" for those filling out the exit survey.

and thank god those folks are no longer playing this game if that is indeed the case

I find a larger flaw with gathering data from dissatisfied customers and forcing proposed changes on a satisfied player base. The flaw comes from how such participants are selected and not from their opinions.

Good luck with your experiment Creeper!

yeah I love that point ...so much in fact I'm redoing my sig...... those that us that still play and pay and love the combat system get to be punished and subject to feedback from non playing customers who paid no attention to the makeup of the game (rules, or game play functions) or builds or playstyles and felt lost in a game w/ no easy button ..... yeah turbine great job ....keep listening to that 8-18 yr customer that wants a arcade easy to play game w/ no reading needed and nothing to firgue out ....awesome move..... :confused:

[Creeper]

The OP is missing the boat, I think.

It isn't that you CAN get to lvl 2 and off the island with what you are given, it is that you have to build your caster with the limitations of the game in mind. You have to know enough to take Master's Touch out of the gate or to do the tutorial and get the moldy quarterstaff.

And how fun is it for a sorc to take Master's Touch out of the gate and PAY to remove it once they hit Stormreach because of some artificial construct in the game mechanics on Korthos?

There are two simple fixes:

a) bump the finger of flame wand to 1d6. Now you have a wand that does the same amt. of damage as the next lowest weapon on the list, at a distance, but with the tradeoff of having only 50 charges per rest.

b) get rid of the wand altogether and put a flaming quarterstaff up there and be done with it.

With either option, you no longer need MT, you no longer need to do the tutorial and you can build your caster as YOU choose, not as the game railroads you.

Not again! :D How would this prove that low level mobs are not hard to hit with melee????????????????????? :D

You do not have to take master's touch. It is about the best spell you can take if you wanna pick a greataxe and do it fast as possible. It would cost a sorcerer 100 gold pieces to swap out master's touch BTW.

This thread is about hitting things at low levels folks. It also contains a tested, easy, and pretty much fool proof way to get to level two with your caster even if he has six strength. It is not the only way to solo to level two. It is in my opinion the best way for a caster to go at startup.

I am trying to be helpful.

What way do you suggest a new caster levels?

What do you want me to do? Level up a caster without master's touch? You want me to use spells instead of melee? I have done it a dozen times, seriously. I know it is about twice as hard as without a weapon. It is do-able. Trust me. I have soloed all the way to level 8 just using shield and burning hands before.

This is a good way to level your caster: take the greataxe at start up. Even without any strength at all. Even without Master's Touch. It is the best way to go for a new player.

Hopefully a new player might read this thread and learn this from it. So that he knows all he has to do is not take the fire wand. That's pretty much it.

New players: do not take the fire wand

If we spread the word maybe they will see it.

At low level's caster's are not the best solo. At high level's caster's are the absolute best, hands down, no question. This is how DnD and DDO has always been.

You don't NEED to take master's touch. I do, however recommend that you do if you want to use a weapon you are not proficient in.

[Creeper]

There are two simple fixes:

a) bump the finger of flame wand to 1d6. Now you have a wand that does the same amt. of damage as the next lowest weapon on the list, at a distance, but with the tradeoff of having only 50 charges per rest.

b) get rid of the wand altogether and put a flaming quarterstaff up there and be done with it.

With either option, you no longer need MT, you no longer need to do the tutorial and you can build your caster as YOU choose, not as the game railroads you.

I also feel like I should say that you would have to make the wand about 2d10 for it to work as good as the greataxe. If they offered a quarterstaff at startup it would still be a MUCH better choice to pick the Greataxe.

[Dark_Helmet]

Think how people would play a character based on movies and books.

I would try the proverbial Halfling rogue.

Fat dwarves are typically not sneaky.

[Jaywade]

What point don't people get. He's not trying to prove anything about builds. He's trying to prove that even the worst built melee character (a 6 str Wiz) can do just fine hitting things. ANY normal melee build can hit just fine.

So really he's just proving that the grazing blow change isn't needed for lowbies but like others have said is probably for the high end mega-AC builds that mobs can't hit.

*ding*

we have a winner

it's nice to be lied too isn't?

[Creeper]

*ding*

we have a winner

it's nice to be lied too isn't?

*ding*

I just dinged your ding. Very nice! Hi-Five!

[Creeper]

Ok, It's now 12:01 am EST. The votes are cast.

two for dwarf assassin
one for mechanic halfling
one for warforged barbarian
one for assassin halfling
and the final one for just a stereotypical halfling rogue as seen on Tv!

Halfling is the winning race.

Assassin is the winning class.

REROLL! Wish me luck (Again)!

************************************************** **
Disclaimer: this test is to see how hard it is for an average newbie premade rogue to hit mobs in dungeons.
************************************************** **

[Jaywade]

*dings* all around


you know I would of had a lot more respect for them if we got a post like this


dev

" currently in live game it's possible for certian builds using certian items to get to a AC score we didn't see comming and were tottaly unprepared for.....being such it is game breaking that 80+ ac can be had w/ duel vorps or green steal weapons + evasion....so to deal w/ balance issues we plan to scrap the whole need of mobs to bypass players AC to inflict melee damage...and go to X system....thank you for your understanding".....

instead we were given " to many people leaving the game whined about combat being to hard and misses are not fun, so we are going to make the game more fun with X system"


I hope who ever thought this up did not get a bonus for thier efforts

[Creeper]

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll295/notaddam/th_ScreenShot00025.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/albums/ll295/notaddam/?action=view&current=ScreenShot00025.jpg)

This sums up my Korthos experience. Did the undead one on elite. Was a close one and took a while but by golly I did it. Got a masterwork leather armor and a potion of repair light from the end chest. This was of course the hardest quest so far. I had a rapier and a longbow and the zombies and skellys are resistant to it. I was still able to complete. Just took a while. The uber loot was worth it though!!!

Thus far as a "new player" my complaints are:
When I tripped monsters they still attacked me.
When I broke containers the items would often spawn into walls and I could not get them.
Why do I have a Longbow when I am not proficient with it?
The monsters often ran around aimlessly and attacked walls.
(I know several of these issues are supposed to be fixed, but remember I am "new".)

I am sure there will be more complaints to come.

************************************************** **
Disclaimer: I know Korthos is easy. I just have to do it to get into the Harbor first. Be patient.
************************************************** **

[gaki]

I am trying to be helpful.

What way do you suggest a new caster levels?



We have different goals. I want to help newbs who are going to pick things differently than you will. They will tend to pick the item they are proficient in rather than the item that is mathematically best. They will build a character with cool spells, not the specific spell you need to play faux fighter to ram your way off the island.

You level however you find to be the fastest possible way. I'm making suggestions to keep newb casters from getting frustrated dying on the island so that we get more new players rather than fewer.

[Creeper]

We have different goals. I want to help newbs who are going to pick things differently than you will. They will tend to pick the item they are proficient in rather than the item that is mathematically best. They will build a character with cool spells, not the specific spell you need to play faux fighter to ram your way off the island.

You level however you find to be the fastest possible way. I'm making suggestions to keep newb casters from getting frustrated dying on the island so that we get more new players rather than fewer.

Ok, so how do you level your newb caster? How do you recommend others do so? I, of course, can't help people much if they choose to "pick things differently". Could you offer some other suggestions that a new caster could use to level up?

I'm not trying to pick a fight with you Gaki.

[FluffyCalico]

Ok, so how do you level your newb caster? .

You get with several others of same level just like you do at any level in the game! :eek:

[Creeper]

You get with several others of same level just like you do at any level in the game! :eek:

That would make too much sense! If I had to group with you people I would leave too! :D

[Creeper]

Ok, I am all done with Korthos.

I am level 2 now. I have a +7 to hit (12 strength) and 20 AC. I figured I would do an inventory of my items and equipment before entering the Harbor.
All of these items came from chests, barrels, or end rewards in Korthos.

Weapons:
Ember Longbow
Ember Rapier (My main weapon.)
Valen’s Mace
Masterwork Warhammer
+1 Heavy Crossbow (Came from redemption end quest. Longbow is the better weapon still unless I have trouble hitting things.)

Armor:
Battleworn Chain Shirt

Accessories:
Ring of Waterbreathing
Rugged Belt
Engraved Ring
Spear Bane
Bracers of Assistance
Cloak of Faith
Anger’s Gift
Anger’s Step
Engraved Circlet
Amulet of Inner Focus
Runic Gloves

Consumables:
7 cure light pots
96 thieves tools
40 bolts
160 arrows

I have 26 plat and 8 gold. I have had a good time. My major problem thus far is things running from me erratically attacking walls and me swinging wildly at them and not getting any rolls. I have been able to hit most everything on a roll of a two so far.

I should start the harbor tomorrow. Wish me luck!

[gaki]

Ok, so how do you level your newb caster?

Take the tutorial to get the moldy staff and take the wand at the end. My spells are mage armor, shield and magic missile. You use spells until they are gone, the wand after that and the staff for when the wand dies. Cannith Crystal is a bit dicey but the rest are manageable.

You do all the quests on the island on solo, one time through, and you'll hit second as you finish the last of the quests before Misery's Peak. Go back to town, collect your goodies and level, and go into Misery's Peak as a 2nd lvl caster.


I'm not trying to pick a fight with you Gaki.

We're not fighting, we're debating. ;-)

Korthos is the OBE, designed specifically for newbies. If you come at that OBE from the perspective of someone who's never played DnD, who has no idea of the mechanics or gameplay or anything, the odds of them successfully getting to lvl 2 with a caster are considerably longer than with any other class. Even a rogue can pick a proficient weapon and bash their way to lvl 2 if they have to. Same thing with clerics.

But mages have the choice of that automatic -4 or that gimped wand, so even though they start with the same 0 BAB as the rogue and cleric, they have fewer and worse tools to work with.

It is my opinion that regular players will crunch the numbers and find the best and quickest combo (likely your solution). It is also my opinion that rank newbies are going to go with the easiest route (the one without the explanation marks!) and will get frustrated.

The very fact we've both figured out work arounds to get our casters to lvl 2 without too much heartache shows you that the OBE is broken for casters. You don't problem solve unless there is a problem, right?

[FluffyCalico]

The very fact we've both figured out work arounds to get our casters to lvl 2 without too much heartache shows you that the OBE is broken for casters. You don't problem solve unless there is a problem, right?

The fact he rolled the worst thing he could possibly imagine and couldn't even cast on purpose tells me he wasn't trying too hard to "solve a problem" but point out there is NO problem. And he has shown that the only problem is in the Devs minds.

[Bashfyl]

Soloing low-level harbor content on normal isn't that hard, even as a caster.

However, if your AC is above 12-14, that's not typical low-lvl (newb) sorc/wiz AC.

Also, that quest where you kill 30 spiders that is a lvl 2 solo quest I couldn't do til level 3... other than that and the cannith crystal (on hard or elite) the only trouble at lows lvls is if the person is completely new and is still figuring out the game mechanics.

(You have no clue how frustrating that stupid spider quest was!)

[gaki]

The fact he rolled the worst thing he could possibly imagine and couldn't even cast on purpose tells me he wasn't trying too hard to "solve a problem" but point out there is NO problem. And he has shown that the only problem is in the Devs minds.

He did cast. He used MT to offset the -4 from the great axe and mage armour for protection. He also specifically took that spell and weapon combination to do it. What are the odds if I hand 100 newbies a 1st level wizard that they spontaneously pick that combo?

There is a problem, but only for newbies. Clearly someone who knows enough to game the system has no issue.

[FluffyCalico]

There is a problem, but only for newbies. Clearly someone who knows enough to game the system has no issue.

Yeah or the newbs could do the quests like everyone else did when they were new 3 years ago. Get in a group. I still have no idea why anyone would PAY to play a GROUP game and NOT group. Solo is something for games where its just you or where there is no group stuff to do. If you don't know what your are doing why the heck would you be trying to solo a group game?

[TheSnowman]

Statistically I dont think there is anything wrong with the hit rate.

But having just played the trial with a few new friends one complaint is that it "feels" like they are missing all the time. Even though, when I point out how the system works and they check the stats they realise that there is nothing wrong.

The problem is that sound! the "whoosh".. even though you've taken a large swing, it defies logic really, it just doesnt feel right. Your attacking like a mad man and several mobs watching your health go down and all you seem to hear is "whoosh, whoosh whoosh" it IS frustrating!

The problem with your feedback on this is that your already used to it and accept it, like I do. But it still doesnt feel right and I think the grazing attack with make combat more appealing to new players.

[FluffyCalico]

. But it still doesnt feel right and I think the grazing attack with make combat more appealing to new players.

But the servers are way over flooded with melee already. What we need are more casters and healers. The last thing we need is for melee (which we have way to many of) to become even more appealing.

[William_the_Bat]

Unless I'm mistaken, the premise wasn't that newb casters can or can't kill things with spells, it's that melee characters can hit just fine at low levels, which is true. For grazing hits to actually help the situation, he'd have to be fighting creatures that take more than a 10 to hit. He's shown that even a very silly "melee" can still rip up the harbor effectively.

I did notice that in the Osgood's basement part of the experiment he charmed the bandits rather than melee Shriketalon, which is one of the very few creatures you actually do need more than a 10 to hit.

Personally, I think having a very light sprinkling of creatures that actually are hard to hit is fun, and less fun with grazing hits. I don't want them in every quest, but why shouldn't there be a quest where you want to have along either a guy with a strong attack bonus -or- a caster with a damage spell. (or apparently, charm person)

Oh yes, and his same "uber melee build", who took mage armor and shield and a decent dex, is going to take a lot more damage from monsters via grazing hits than he'll ever dish out against the handful of monsters he actually can get grazing hits against.

[Creeper]

Unless I'm mistaken, the premise wasn't that newb casters can or can't kill things with spells, it's that melee characters can hit just fine at low levels, which is true. For grazing hits to actually help the situation, he'd have to be fighting creatures that take more than a 10 to hit. He's shown that even a very silly "melee" can still rip up the harbor effectively.


*ding ding ding!*

[DragoonPenguin]

Your test missed the point. The devs said that Korthos was fine (actually too easy) but that the problem was in Stormreach (ie - the older content...)

actual question because i have no idea: how hard is it to go back to the mobs in question and lower the ac by a little bit? does that take more or less work than designing and implementing grazing hits?

[Creeper]

But mages have the choice of that automatic -4 or that gimped wand, so even though they start with the same 0 BAB as the rogue and cleric, they have fewer and worse tools to work with.


Unless you count arcane spells :D

Can you think of many other MMOs where it is easier to level a caster up at startup than a melee character?

Every MMO, MUD, MOO, MMORPG, ROUGE, and just plain old video game I have ever played the trade off is:

Melee pwns low level content - Melee sucks at high level content
Caster sucks low level content - Caster pwns high level content

It takes more brains to be a caster. That's why it's hard to level. You need to learn/research so you don't cast firewall on iron golems. Spell selection is very important. Every situation has an ideal set of spells. In this particular series of dungeons master's touch, shield, and mage armor are that set of ideal spells. There are other spells a person could take and accomplish the same thing eventually. These are simply the best spells for these low level dungeons.

Now back to low level trying-to-hit-things!

[Creeper]

actual question because i have no idea: how hard is it to go back to the mobs in question and lower the ac by a little bit? does that take more or less work than designing and implementing grazing hits?

Funny thing is they have done the opposite. They have raised the ac.

[Mclonerpants]

Hello all you wizened, ancient, and somewhat knowledgable players who have to perform various tests and speculations to even come close to what it's like to be a new player again. I started playing about 4-5 months ago(With about a 2 month break) and I have to say that this game isn't very friendly at all to new players.

I came here from another MMO with Creeper awhile back because we were both fed up with it and he suggested I start playing DDO. He lured me with promises of insane amounts of customizability, intense PvE action, and traps that will decapitate you with one false move. I'm happy to say that DDO delivered on all three accounts! The main problem though wasn't that I had any trouble hitting things, it was that I didn't know what anything meant. It seemed that NOTHING was explained properly and Creeper had to give me a step by step tutorial to make me understand what was what, why these things didn't stack, what these yellow numbers were, what on earth was AC and why did being quicker benefit my "Armor" Class. It seemed that had he not gone through all this with me the game would have slowly taught me these things through the loading screen opposed to the actual tutorial.

When I started out without Creeper there to guide me I made a pre-made Paladin because it showed that it was good at keeping itself alive. I went out into the world and found that there was hardly anybody there. I struggled to get a group together even at Korthos(Might have been a slow day for all I know). I didn't even know HOW to get to stormreach! When I finally got there I found most of the people unwelcoming of people who hadn't run a quest 4 or 115 times before. It got even worse at higher levels as I accidently fell off things while others zerged aahead and I was left behind to guess whether the path to the right was the way back to my group or whether it was filled with vicious hobgoblins. This often lead to one sympathetic player coming back and showing me the way while the other less tolerant players went on without us and died a horribly painful death. But for every nice, understanding, patient player there is out there, there is another who could care less about your playing experience and only cares about getting his next level.

So when I read this thread and saw that the supposed reason people left was because they "Can't hit things" I was a bit surprised.

By the way, it was the OP that suggested I post this, so don't go off on me for going off topic. >:(

Good luck with your experiment!

[The_Phenx]

What abilites should I dump in then if not con and dex? I would dump into str but....

What feats should I take? I definatly don't need toughness.

play like a total noob.. use one of the predestined build paths for wizards...

[Creeper]

play like a total noob.. use one of the predestined build paths for wizards...

For what purpose? Do the wizard premades have less than six strength? I will do this when I delete the premade rogue I am testing now so everyone will stop asking me to.

I am still not sure how using damaging spells instead of melee will test how hard it is to hit things however.

[Missing_Minds]

I am still not sure how using damaging spells instead of melee will test how hard it is to hit things however.

IN the purpose of what you were doing.. not much. just blwo all of your mana on the first two mobs as most new players will do, then runn around hitting things.

I expect it will in crease your life span for all of... 20-60 seconds more.

[Creeper]

IN the purpose of what you were doing.. not much. just blwo all of your mana on the first two mobs as most new players will do, then runn around hitting things.

I expect it will in crease your life span for all of... 20-60 seconds more.

Ok, so we can go ahead and get this out of the way, I deleted one of my characters and rolled a hafling pre-made elementalist.

Stats:
10 str
12 dex
14 con
18 int
8 wis
8 cha

Feats:
Empower spell
Spell focus: Evocation

Spells:
Burning Hands
Charm Person
Mage Armor
Magic Missle
Niac's
Obscuring Mist
Shocking Grasp

I took the wand as my starter weapon. Now what? This build has 4 more strength than my last one. SO, now you want me to burn my mana before meleeing? Ok. Lol.

[Creeper]

Oh no! I looted a Masterwork Dwarven Axe from the chest on Cannith Crystal normal!

I have two less to hit with it than the moldy qstaff which means I will have to roll a seven to hit things, but it does 1-10 damage instead of 1-4 based on what the description of the weapon said.

Do I use this mighty new weapon? NO! I won't! It doesn't fit the stereotypical, biased, idea of the newbie wizard you guys are presenting. He is unconcerned with reading things. All he wants to do is nuke things with his spells.

Typical of wizards not to spend anytime reading things right, researching and testing his spells to determine which are the most effective? A wizard would never do such things! :D

I have done all the starting quests on Korthos on normal so far. When I run out of mana I swing my quarterstaff and kill things quicker than with my spells. It takes an average of about a six to hit things for 1d4. I do not notice that they die quicker with my quarterstaff however. I am too new! New players don't notice such things. Right? Or do you think they would?

Regardless, I will continue to play this way so we can let the subject drop. "Blowing my mana" using offensive spells then using the quarterstaff to clean up the remaining beasts. It has worked pretty well on normal so far.

Hopefully then we can move on with the purpose of this thread and I can go back to my rogue in the harbor and see at what point he has difficulty hitting things with weapons.

[Creeper]

I am level two now. I do 2d8 + 20% damage with my burning hands spell. I don't know it yet, because I am "new" but I can solo most anything my own level with this spell. I have a little experience under my belt now. I am learning as I play. I was able to solo all of the Starting Korthos' Dungeons on Hard using my spells. While the spells were "cooling down" I used my quarterstaff or wand. It worked absolutely splendidly. It was not as fast as the Greataxe, but was more fun. I am also more than certain I can do the same thing just using the moldy quarterstaff minus any offensive spells.

I failed Cannith Crystal on hard the first time. The red named shattered the crystal before I could kill him. I then went to the tavern and picked up charm person. People may think that is dubious, a new wizard exchanging spells, but I don't think it is much of a stretch that when faced with my first challenge I re-assess my situation and adapt in some small way. That is the benefit of Wizard vs. Sorcerer. Regardless I did not NEED to do Cannith Crystal on hard, but I did. I used charm person. I took no damage at all. I had 20 spell points when the last person became un-charmed. I used those 20 sp to Niacs the final cultist for completion.

What is the point of all this? I have no idea. I naively hope that people will drop the whole thing about me making an uber great axe wizard build and leveling. You can also do it with spells it just takes longer. Maybe now we can proceed with the point of this thread?


In closing;

It is harder to get to level two as a caster than as a melee. I think it should be harder. Casters have to use brains sometimes. If you do this you will succeed, no matter what level.

I should also point out that I got four blind invites from different people while I was on the island. It would have been easier to do this joining a group of course.

Now, can we please drop the, “You cheated by picking a Greataxe!” dialogue? There’s more than one way to skin a cat and level a caster. I have been and always have been aware of this.

Now let’s get back to the rogue build so I can start on the harbor.

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll295/notaddam/th_ScreenShot00031.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/albums/ll295/notaddam/?action=view&current=ScreenShot00031.jpg)

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll295/notaddam/th_ScreenShot00032.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/albums/ll295/notaddam/?action=view&current=ScreenShot00032.jpg)

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll295/notaddam/th_ScreenShot00033.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/albums/ll295/notaddam/?action=view&current=ScreenShot00033.jpg)

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll295/notaddam/th_ScreenShot00034.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/albums/ll295/notaddam/?action=view&current=ScreenShot00034.jpg)

[DeepThroat]

New player here, I have yet to have a problem hitting stuff with any charactor on average.

[Jaywade]

New player here, I have yet to have a problem hitting stuff with any charactor on average.

great name btw


and it's only the people that have left and filled out the exit survey that couldn't hit anything....they will all be back though once this game is put on xbox live :eek:

[Creeper]

My Dark Blade rogue is level 3 now. I soloed Miller’s Debt, Info is Key, Kobold’s New Ringleader, Durk’s Got A Secret (normal and hard), and Waterworks Part One and Two. I didn’t use the shrines on the WW quests until the quest was over. I didn’t need them and took almost no damage at all.

At level three I was given Weapon Finesse. I now have a +9 to hit while dual wielding and a +11 with only the starter rapier. I have aquired a +1 chain shirt which gives me 21 AC now. I also got a +1 short sword as and end reward and am using it as an off-hand weapon. I have screenshots of the pulls if you want to see them too. Still using the starter rapier as my main hand.

I am having a blast! It is great fun to sneak up on stuff and stab em! Most things die with one sneak attack. This build is working great so far solo. I haven’t had ANY problem hitting anything. None at all. Next I will complete Waterworks part 3 and 4 then do some other Harbor quests on Hard. I look forward to seeing how much more uber I will be with weapon finesse.

I also have screen shots of the completion of all of the quests I mentioned at level two if anyone doubts I did it. Here are the WW shots:

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll295/notaddam/th_ScreenShot00042.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/albums/ll295/notaddam/?action=view&current=ScreenShot00042.jpg)

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll295/notaddam/th_ScreenShot00043.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/albums/ll295/notaddam/?action=view&current=ScreenShot00043.jpg)

More to come! :D

[Missing_Minds]

I'm still curious how well you'll be able to hit and survive "recover the lost tome" and "information is key" on hard and elite with your gimp toons at lvl 3 and 4. Mostly because of skeletons and doggy AC, let alone zombie HP.

Those two are what I'm curious about. I know I shouldn't be, but I am.

[Creeper]

I'm still curious how well you'll be able to hit and survive "recover the lost tome" and "information is key" on hard and elite with your gimp toons at lvl 3 and 4. Mostly because of skeletons and doggy AC, let alone zombie HP.

Those two are what I'm curious about. I know I shouldn't be, but I am.

Glad you asked. I missed the dogs on a four and hit on a five on hard. I missed on a 10 and hit on an 11 on Shriktalon.
Check the combat log in my screen shot if you want.

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll295/notaddam/th_ScreenShot00047.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/albums/ll295/notaddam/?action=view&current=ScreenShot00047.jpg)

I'll do the Lighthouse later.

Haven't had any problems hitting anything yet.

As far as surviving I died today in WW part two on hard. I got held by a Shaman and that was it. I was almost done too :(
Still no problems hitting anything. This build has a pretty decent to-hit for a level three rogue as far as I am concerned.

I'll probaly wait till level four to do things on elite.

[Aethene]

go creeper!!!

[Missing_Minds]

Glad you asked. I missed the dogs on a four and hit on a five on hard. I missed on a 10 and hit on an 11 on Shriktalon.
Check the combat log in my screen shot if you want.

wow.... they nutered those quests then.

[Creeper]

Once I get to level six or so I am gonna try the same build on the beta. Should be educational.

[Dark_Helmet]

Ok, I am all done with Korthos.

My major problem thus far is things running from me erratically attacking walls and me swinging wildly at them and not getting any rolls. I have been able to hit most everything on a roll of a two so far.



And that folks, is what we contend that the developers are not understanding. Grazing attacks won't help that.

[Missing_Minds]

And that folks, is what we contend that the developers are not understanding. Grazing attacks won't help that.

And that folks, is the first time I've ever heard anyone state that. (won't argue the truth in it either.)

[Creeper]

My Dark Blade rogue is level 4 now. The ability point was spent in dex. I have 20 dex now and still don't have an item. I also have Uncanny Dodge which should come in handy.

I'm still saving my plat up for a better weapon. Still using the starter rapier.

I did Info is Key on elite a few minutes ago.
It took a roll of a two to hit the regular dogs and the smugglers had even lower ac. It took at least a 13 to hit Shriktalon. This has been the hardest thing to hit yet in my career. I don't think I would call it hard to hit because I hardly noticed and it died pretty fast. If you do think it is hard to hit keep in mind that it takes a roll of a 10 to trigger grazing blows. I soloed the whole dungeon without using a pot or any other type of healing thingy.
So if you think the numbers above could be descibed as hard to hit, I would suggest that they should be HARDER to hit. If my premade, 28 point, ember rapier wielding, level four rogue can solo this dungeon on elite without any problem, it may be a good idea to make these guys harder to hit.

I think it is safe to say that I have not had any problems yet in the harbor hitting anything. Next stop; The Marketplace!

See screenshots for combat logs:

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll295/notaddam/th_ScreenShot00049.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/albums/ll295/notaddam/?action=view&current=ScreenShot00049.jpg)

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll295/notaddam/th_ScreenShot00051.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/albums/ll295/notaddam/?action=view&current=ScreenShot00051.jpg)

*Edit* Oh, I should point out that I took Halfling Cunning and Sneak attack accuracy this level. That will give me an extra +2 to hit in some cases as well. I was also offered a x3 divine favor clicky on WW end reward. I turned it down for an acrobat's ring....

[William_the_Bat]

I would submit that a creature that your level 4 dark blade needs to roll a 13 to hit will be very hard to hit for a pre-finesse dex based character, or your greataxe wizard..

I would also submit that this is how it -should- be! There should be -some- things that are hard to hit.

If all these "tough" creatures die faster than jacoby drexelhand after the kobolds spiked his meal because of grazing hits, then where is the fun of having a character that can either get his attack skill high enough to pwn it or else nuke it to a crisp with scorching ray?

[Creeper]

I would submit that a creature that your level 4 dark blade needs to roll a 13 to hit will be very hard to hit for a pre-finesse dex based character, or your greataxe wizard..

I would also submit that this is how it -should- be! There should be -some- things that are hard to hit.

If all these "tough" creatures die faster than jacoby drexelhand after the kobolds spiked his meal because of grazing hits, then where is the fun of having a character that can either get his attack skill high enough to pwn it or else nuke it to a crisp with scorching ray?

My hypothesis is that when I try this on the beta I will have a MUCH harder time hitting things, damaging things, and living.

We shall see.

[Creeper]

Oh my goodness gracious!

I went to Tangleroot.

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll295/notaddam/th_ScreenShot00052.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/albums/ll295/notaddam/?action=view&current=ScreenShot00052.jpg)

I hit EVERYTHING here on a roll of a 2. Even the hobgoblin slayers and spiders. That means I can leave defensive fighting on. It took a four to hit with defensive fighting.

Imagine If I had cat's grace or a +3 weapon. I could turn on Defensive fighting or combat expertise and wield a weapon I am not proficient in and still be ok.....

This is hilarious.

[sirdanile]

Just the first part of tr or the whole quest line?

[Creeper]

Just the first part of tr or the whole quest line?

I made it all the way to the second to last part, Zulkash: Doom of the Witch Doctor.

The Brown Spider Princes took a six to hit. This is by far the hardest I have encountered here. The Worgs only took a two to hit. Keep in mind I am still using my Ember Rapier (Masterwork) with no dex item.

To go any further and complete Tangleroot solo I would have to cheat. That is, buying pots and no longer playing like a new person (ie. I would have to use traps). If this comes as a suprise to you remember the last 4 in the series are level 6-8 and I am a level four premade Dark Blade rogue trying to solo a level eight dungeon with starter equipment....

I'm not going to change my tactics yet, but I am going to drop into some other higher level quests just to see what it takes to hit things.

This thread, is afterall, about "Is it hard for a new player to hit things." and not "What can Creeper solo with a gimp rogue." =D

[Surista]

I made it all the way to the second to last part, Zulkash: Doom of the Witch Doctor.

The Brown Spider Princes took a six to hit. This is by far the hardest I have encountered here. The Worgs only took a two to hit. Keep in mind I am still using my Ember Rapier (Masterwork) with no dex item.

To go any further and complete Tangleroot solo I would have to cheat. That is, buying pots and no longer playing like a new person (ie. I would have to use traps). If this comes as a suprise to you remember the last 4 in the series are level 6-8 and I am a level four premade Dark Blade rogue trying to solo a level eight dungeon with starter equipment....

I'm not going to change my tactics yet, but I am going to drop into some other higher level quests just to see what it takes to hit things.

This thread, is afterall, about "Is it hard for a new player to hit things." and not "What can Creeper solo with a gimp rogue." =D

Do a test on the Redemption quest (Canith Factory) in Korthos on Elite and tell me how well you can hit the metal dogs. I started as a Halfling Monk for first ever character a month ago and was able to solo most of the Korthos on elite at level 2-3 and they were some of the hardest things to hit. TWF and Power Attack were my starting feats, then Finesse at level 2 were what I chose. Using +2 wraps I slowly upgraded every 2 levels into eventually +5 wraps.

13 Str - 16 Dex - 8 Int - 16 Wis - 8 Chr only being 28 points.

[Creeper]

Do a test on the Redemption quest (Canith Factory) in Korthos on Elite and tell me how well you can hit the metal dogs. I started as a Halfling Monk for first ever character a month ago and was able to solo most of the Korthos on elite at level 2-3 and they were some of the hardest things to hit. TWF and Power Attack were my starting feats, then Finesse at level 2 were what I chose. Using +2 wraps I slowly upgraded every 2 levels into eventually +5 wraps.

13 Str - 16 Dex - 8 Int - 16 Wis - 8 Chr only being 28 points.

It took an eight to hit the dogs on elite! I am suprised!

I went to various high level dungeons that I could enter and tested some other critters:
(All values given are with a +14 attack modifier)
5 Hill Giant (Threnal, Redwillow)
7 Skeleton Arcus (The Archers in Delera's)
7 Night Scorpion (Redwillow)
2 Troll (Redwillow)

I have to be level five to enter Dungeons like Stormcleave and Stromvold's. I have enough $$ now to purchase a +3 rapier, but I hesitate. It would give me a mighty +16 modifier. :confused: