Do you find soloing WW elite on a level 16 character rewarding?

[Feyt]

I pose this question because of the trend that DDO: EU is clearly heading towards. Resurrection cakes, mana pots, experience potions, easier curse removal, time based removal of negative levels, quest level adjustment, shrine's resetting...the list goes on and on.

Of course this is all an effort to appeal to a broader player base, enhance profit, and hopefully save what we all know to be a fading game. I have read most of the posts on the Beta and regular forums about the game changes. The sentiments are usually split between experienced player versus newer player in an argument about whether the changes are needed.

Obviously some changes are needed and the new blood attracted by free DDO will be more than welcome. My concern is that we will experience a short rebirth, based on the new release, but eventually because of the lack of challenge presented the game will no longer be able to hold anyone's interest for an extended amount of time. How fun is it to do waterworks elite on your level 16 character? It is my opinion that this will be the challenge rating of most quests with the newly implemented changes.

I encourage the developers to read the forums and see that there are two distinct player populations and that they shouldn't be too focused on developing content for a the newer / broader player base that is not challenging. Having content from easy to down right impossible will keep ALL players challenged and trying to devise new ways to defeat difficult quests. As it stands, I doubt many players will continue to play after the challenge is gone.

[Hafeal]

So, if you use the store to solo ... you are probably doing solo now anyway. And if you are soloing, who knows what you do?

If you want the challenge, which some people claim does not exist now, why can't you do something like permadeath and role players and create groups or guilds which play by your rules?

Why is the only answer to create a hard rule that everyone must live by despite their play style? The biggest problem for challenge in this game isn't the store, it is players running the same quests so often they have them memorized. This can only be [partially] resolved through more content released at a faster pace.

[bellack]

So, if you use the store to solo ... you are probably doing solo now anyway. And if you are soloing, who knows what you do?

If you want the challenge, which some people claim does not exist now, why can't you do something like permadeath and role players and create groups or guilds which play by your rules?

Why is the only answer to create a hard rule that everyone must live by despite their play style? The biggest problem for challenge in this game isn't the store, it is players running the same quests so often they have them memorized. This can only be [partially] resolved through more content released at a faster pace.

And randomization of all dungeons. I really hate parting with players that know the dungeon like the back of my hand. It takes the fun right out have running the dungeon.
I'm to the point now in asking in pugs "How many times have you ran this dungeon? Do you know it like the back of your hand? Do you have a problem of having a noob lead if we have one in the party?" If they answer yes to the first two I will usally not party with them unless they answer yes to the third. I've have played this game for many years as will (taking off the last year.) And I try not to comment dungeons to memory and I always allw noobs to lead. I also hate Zerging a dungeon.

[Feyt]

1. I took out solo from the post. It did not have any bearing on the discussion. Thank you.

2. You suggest making up new rules to make the game challenging. Why should i have to make up new and artificial rules for a game I already pay for? Maybe i should pay them to delete my character when i die in permadeath too? Maybe i have capped permadeath characters? your point?

3. Did you read my post at all? What hard rules did i ask for? i asked for the devs to create content that ranges in difficulty from easy to very hard. People find finishing difficult quests rewarding. This is why there are more than 2 colors to rubik's cube, you collect only 200 dollars after passing go in monopoly and not all of the money in the bank (or why you can't buy the monopoly money with real life money), and why we all don't have 5000 hit points in the game...though this might be a better solution than unlimited mana and rez's. Think of it - running through water works with 500 hit points at level 1 is the solution!

4. Quests will always be repeated - this should be taken into account (and already is in some cases).

[Grond]

I don't think the EU is going to make soloing WW on a lvl 16 any easier, I hardly use mana pots in there now... :D

Ok, seriously, if you want a challenge, then don't use the store. It's like playing golf by yourself... if you want a challenge, don't use the footwedge to get out of the rough. If you're just out there to play and have fun, by all means, footwedge back to the fairway and continue on. Does it really bother you that on some golf course somewhere someone might use a footwedge or mulligan occasionally?

The permadeath guys have already been doing this. It works for them.

[Feyt]

Sigh. Maybe i should just go back to playing Hello Kitty Island Adventure. I guess I just don't see what is wrong with a challenge being part of normal gameplay.

I would say that I should go and make sure my guildies are wealthy too. But when we don't fail at anything we won't need to ask the cleric to go to the store and spend his RL money to beat the quest/raid. But consider it a heads up for those who do need the store.

Actually, the devs should make things super hard - that way players will be forced to use the store more often and turbine will make more money and we will get more content!

[Mercules]

Actually... I enjoying soloing WWs on a level 2-3. That may have to be bumped up a bit with the increase in level for WWs. Then again... maybe not.


The game might become a bit more accessible to some people but I doubt your extreme over exaggeration will ever come remotely close to true. You want to see what the game is like currently to new people, start a character on a server you have never set foot on before and can't twink.

The game is much more fun that way, but that fun is quickly ruined when every other Level 2 has a Ring of Feathers, +2 Con item, Acid/PG weapon race restricted, Trapblast goggles, and enough other gear to basically solo the quest... and there are 5 of them like that with you.

Turbine is giving those new people a chance to buy some of that so they can fit in with those of us that have been playing for years and have a collection of twink gear for a variety of classes.

[Ann_Shadow]

And randomization of all dungeons. I really hate parting with players that know the dungeon like the back of my hand. It takes the fun right out have running the dungeon.
...

I also hate Zerging a dungeon.

I completely agree with this post. Pretty much why I solo 99.5% of the time.

Random Dungeons would be fantastic if only to slow down the pace of it.

[Leyoni]

Some things are trivial when writing code. Other things are not.

Rewriting dungeon code to incorporate random encounters is not trivial. Neither is it trivial to rewrite code to incorporate random design.

The efforts at "random" trap placement in some dungeons shows that the skill set to code "random" events is not present (or at least, was not present) at Turbine. That is not a knock on the developers. It is a comment on how hard it is to actually randomize events.

The solution to boredom with dungeons is to not rerun them. Do the other content. You know, the stuff you never do -- ever.

The solution to zerging is to form your own groups. The solution to "everyone" knowing the quest is to form your own guilds.

With the advent of DDO:EU the solution to zerging and "everyone" knowing is to rely heavily on F2P players who will probably not be the power-game, optimal build, searches the net for dungeon maps and encounter info types of players.

I agree with Hafeal's question: Why is the only answer to create a hard rule that everyone must live by despite their play style? If there are things you don't like then don't do them. In the end we are only responsible for our own selves. Let others be responsible for themselves and you do what is appropriate for yourself.

[Hafeal]

1. I took out solo from the post. It did not have any bearing on the discussion. Thank you.

If you change your point after I respond, please don't sarcastically respond to me as if your original point did not matter.


You suggest making up new rules to make the game challenging. Why should i have to make up new and artificial rules for a game I already pay for? Maybe i should pay them to delete my character when i die in permadeath too? Maybe i have capped permadeath characters? your point?


My point is: do you see the irony in your statement? You don't like Turbine's new rules but yet you want your own? You don't like my response giving you alternate ideas to play in the style you want within the new rules set by Turbine but simply pout for your rules to be instituted.


3. Did you read my post at all? What hard rules did i ask for? i asked for the devs to create content that ranges in difficulty from easy to very hard.

I read it. Turbine has quests currently set up with ratings from solo through elite, your wish is granted. I would suggest trying some on elite if you are finding a lack of challenge in the game.

[Kadran]

Sigh. Maybe i should just go back to playing Hello Kitty Island Adventure. I guess I just don't see what is wrong with a challenge being part of normal gameplay.

I would say that I should go and make sure my guildies are wealthy too. But when we don't fail at anything we won't need to ask the cleric to go to the store and spend his RL money to beat the quest/raid. But consider it a heads up for those who do need the store.

Actually, the devs should make things super hard - that way players will be forced to use the store more often and turbine will make more money and we will get more content!

Really? People like super hard? How many people ran the titan when it first came out? How many continued to run it after months of not beating it?

How many people run the Abbott? I guess you have a point. The vast majority of DDO LOVES super hard, nearly impossible quests. That must be why they changed the Titan several times. That has to be why they're changing the Abbott again.

DDO players LOVE super easy, smooth quests. Those that don't play PD, or make up optional rulesets like GIMP (see the Ghallanda Forums.) I can tell you, I hate to lose. I don't care if I'm soloing, or in a raid. I want it to go smoothly. I want my exp. I want my loot. I want my end reward. That's why all of my toons start with barkskin (+2) potions, and upgrade to +3s at level 5. They have heroism, cure, and curse pots. I think you get the idea.

I've never had anyone complain that I killed things better than them. The reason for this is I'm social. Talk to the people in your group, and let them swing at things too. Instead of running ahead killing everything in your path, let them do their thing too. People will remember your name, and add you to friends.

[Impaqt]

Theres not much challenge for a L16 doing WW On Elite. Thats true.. But thats an incredibly poor example. DDO is a GAME. there is a major difference to a game being "Hard" and a game being "Challeneging" imo. Many DDO quests are very challenging.. But after you do them a dozen times, they arent anymore. yet, many people continue to do them over and over again.. Looking for an Item.. Farming Ingrediants.... or even having fun....

I'm sorry, but the playerbase doesnt want a game thats too hard. we want to have fun.... If more people wanted a hard game, the average group wouldnt run everything on normal... ALL the time.... Running any of the end game raids on Elite is VERY difficult still. in order to complete these raids, people organize the best groups they can in most situations.

I'm sorry, but if you really expect quests that are several levels below you to offer challenge and difficulty, your kidding yourself. ANd if you think the average DDO player wants to have a difficult time completeing quests, your way off base. How many Pug Elite VoD LFMs do you see up? Shroud? Maybe once a Week I'll see an LFM.... yet I see 4 or 5 minimum LFMs a night for normal runs....

Peopel have no intrest in failing quests. Failure simply isnt fun for most people. THey take the safe route more often than not. Get the quest done. Get the completions.. Move on to the next....

Finding a challenege is very easy. Go ahead and put up an LFM for any end game raid on Elite.. Take whoever Applies without question. and go do the quest. Once you've dont that a few times, come back here and try to tell me theres no challenge in this game for those who look for it.

[Feyt]

@ Hafael -

I didn't change my point. The word solo was irrelevant. That was why I said it "it did not have any bearing on the discussion." I'm glad you can't grasp this. It goes along with why everyone's concept of challenging is different.

I never suggested a change to rules. Isn't it clear enough? - the rules are being changed to accommodate a new and wider player base. With the larger player base - some content needs to be made more easy to accommodate players with limited skill and experience. I didn't say there shouldn't be content for them/ you. I suggested that they should accommodate all the players - of all skill levels.

@ Kadran

Everyone I know ran Titan when it first came out. My guild ran it constantly until we beat it. I ran it constantly with several other guilds to talk strategy and cooperate. It was really fun. Everyone would show up prepared to run a difficult Raid. Everyone was prepared - their own heals, resist electricity, sorcs would have raise dead scrolls, etc. Beating the Titan was an accomplishment, a challenge, and I had a great time in there.

The Abbott? On my server - people ran regular Abbott practice runs - constantly.

DDO players love LOOT. Not super easy quests. Get it right. If a quest contains some named loot that is worthwhile - it will be run and run repeatedly- even if it is super hard.

[Girevik]

Yes, if I need the favor and have let the quest chain slide until then, then I will run it, complete it, and find my excursion rewarding.

You want to know what I don't find rewarding? Quests I don't do.

Why don't I do them? They are either way too difficult to complete, will take way too long to complete (and by this I mean more than one two-three hour play session), or even finding them is too dicey a proposition to even attempt to start them.

I don't usually complain loudly about lack of content, but finding quests to run is becoming more and more difficult.

If they are figuring out ways to open up more of that closed content to different characters, then that is a good thing. More happy people make for more return customers.

[Impaqt]

The Abbott? On my server - people ran regular Abbott practice runs - constantly.

DDO players love LOOT. Not super easy quests. Get it right. If a quest contains some named loot that is worthwhile - it will be run and run repeatedly- even if it is super hard.

Yes, Every server has a select group of people that work at completeing the abbot. I'll give ya that... But these are generally people that know each other before they attempt it.. Or at least know of them....

Try Pugging the abbot and see how much fun the challenge is.

[Mercules]

Peopel have no intrest in failing quests. Failure simply isnt fun for most people. THey take the safe route more often than not. Get the quest done. Get the completions.. Move on to the next....

Yeah... I hate this. This makes playing more like working. It is a bizarre mindset that I run into in tons of games. In this one it makes a tiny bit of sense since you have X hours you can play and most people want to gain Y accomplishments in those hours. Me, I actually like the challenge of 3 manning a quest of equal level on hard with a non-optimal mix of characters. I like hopping onto a server and running quests with non-twink gear I find and buy without a "sugar daddy" character feeding me plat/gear.

Where this attitude makes no sense, and I run into it all the time, are things like war games. In the end, one person wins, and one person looses. People go to ridiculous lengths to not loose and feel horrible if they fail. Um... so are you really going to do a hobby where either 50% of the time you feel horrible or you choose your opponents to not be a challenge?:D

[Feyt]

@ Impaqt

The WW level 16 question - was (i thought) an obvious overstatment of what will be the challenge rating once the DDO store and all of the other changes are incorporated and part of the normal experience.

As an aside to the discussion - your last comment brings up a question I would like for you to answer. I have done exactly what you suggested - opened up an elite Raid to any who applies. And failed repeatedly and with great frustration on my end. What did I do from that point on? Did the raid with 2 or 3 of my guildies instead, no problem less frustration. Why is easier to do a quest with 10 or 12 less people? Usually, I like having more people in a party to increase chances of success, conversation, etc.

DDO is a team based game and there are many players that have gotten to level 16 by simply clicking join on an LFM.

[Kadran]

@ Kadran

Everyone I know ran Titan when it first came out. My guild ran it constantly until we beat it. I ran it constantly with several other guilds to talk strategy and cooperate. It was really fun. Everyone would show up prepared to run a difficult Raid. Everyone was prepared - their own heals, resist electricity, sorcs would have raise dead scrolls, etc. Beating the Titan was an accomplishment, a challenge, and I had a great time in there.

The Abbott? On my server - people ran regular Abbott practice runs - constantly.

DDO players love LOOT. Not super easy quests. Get it right. If a quest contains some named loot that is worthwhile - it will be run and run repeatedly- even if it is super hard.

I hate to pick on just one person, but this was too good to pass up.

Everyone you know ran the titan when it came out. Sure. Everyone I know did too. But for how long? How many resources did they spend before they complained it was impossible and uncompletable? I think you might be mis-remembering those "great" times. As I recall, there were 2 guilds still trying to beat the titan on my server before Bones Combat Brigade finally did it.

What server are you on that there's regular Abbott PuGs? If this is not what you meant, then you severely misinterpretted me. I'm trying to tell you that the vast majority of DDO playerbase does NOT run the Abbott. Sure, there are guilds that do it, and still the rare PuG trying to figure it out before it changes. By and large, no one cares anymore.

I agree, we love loot. I said that. But in having the loot always in one quest, we will find the easiest way to do said quest. Not many people consider the Shroud difficult anymore. No one minds running the desert for bloodstones, ring of spell storing, or firestorm greaves (I've done these runs on a level 8 wizard.) People solo Garamol for the Raiments. The loot that IS random is not a "loot run." You don't see loot run LFMs for a Sun Blade. I'd say the hardest "loot run" is shield pieces, and tome pages (in that order.) And I don't see many LFMs for these anymore. Coincidence?

[Kadran]

I have done exactly what you suggested - opened up an elite Raid to any who applies. And failed repeatedly and with great frustration on my end. What did I do from that point on? Did the raid with 2 or 3 of my guildies instead, no problem less frustration.

Wow. You did a 3-4 man Shroud, VoD, or Hound Elite run? I'd like to see the screenshot, please. :-)

[Impaqt]

@ Impaqt

The WW level 16 question - was (i thought) an obvious overstatment of what will be the challenge rating once the DDO store and all of the other changes are incorporated and part of the normal experience.

As an aside to the discussion - your last comment brings up a question I would like for you to answer. I have done exactly what you suggested - opened up an elite Raid to any who applies. And failed repeatedly and with great frustration on my end. What did I do from that point on? Did the raid with 2 or 3 of my guildies instead, no problem less frustration. Why is easier to do a quest with 10 or 12 less people? Usually, I like having more people in a party to increase chances of success, conversation, etc.

DDO is a team based game and there are many players that have gotten to level 16 by simply clicking join on an LFM.

So your telling me that you tried to increase your challenge by letting unknowns into your groups.. and when they failed, you gave up because it wasnt fun? Instead of rising to the "Challenge", you quit. Great argument ya got there.....:rolleyes:

"I want this game to challenge me more..... As long as I always win.... " you're no different than the majority of players.... You have completely and utterly destroyed your entire argument with that statement.

Maybe the challenge isnt to complete the quest in that instance... maybe the challenge is helping those newbs get a better grasp on the game.. Help them to be contributing members of the team...

Helping people become better players is always more rewarding to me than pulling another Large splintered Horn.

[Gornn]

In general I take whomever applies to a raid I'm leading so long as they are the class for which I'm looking. For me it doesn't usually end poorly.

One thing I wanna say: I want more high level content too. I like raids, I like high level quests, I like high powered items.

Some of my main characters are well equipped and have a lot of raid completions.

But you know what I want more than anything? I want to keep playing DDO. And if DDO isn't making money, that isn't going to happen because the game will close.

If Turbine is making money and thus continuing to produce this game, why do you care if people are using the store? If you're good enough to do the quests now, and without the store, don't use it. It's that simple.

If you can 3 man Elite VOD, you don't need to use it.

Money is the bottom line. And that's all I care about.

I want Turbine to make money hand over fist in the new store so they keep making this game.

And if you care about anything else...my question to you is why?

[Impaqt]

In general I take whomever applies to a raid I'm leading so long as they are the class for which I'm looking. For me it doesn't usually end poorly.

One thing I wanna say: I want more high level content too. I like raids, I like high level quests, I like high powered items.

Some of my main characters are well equipped and have a lot of raid completions.

But you know what I want more than anything? I want to keep playing DDO. And if DDO isn't making money, that isn't going to happen because the game will close.

If Turbine is making money and thus continuing to produce this game, why do you care if people are using the store? If you're good enough to do the quests now, and without the store, don't use it. It's that simple.

If you can 3 man Elite VOD, you don't need to use it.

Money is the bottom line. And that's all I care about.

I want Turbine to make money hand over fist in the new store so they keep making this game.

And if you care about anything else...my question to you is why?

"You must spread some reputation around before giving it to Gornn again"

Sa a /agree with have to do for now :)

[Feyt]

@ kadran

I'm not misremembering "good times". I'm from Xoriat/ Thelanis. I ran Titan constantly with Legion and Novus Via, the two guilds I was in at that time. Ask any of the remaining people from those guilds if it was fun and if we thought it was impossible to complete.

There were regular Abbot practice pug runs on Xoriat/Thelanis.

Why would anyone run tome page/ shield loot runs when that there is easier and better loot elsewhere?

[Mercules]

Why would anyone run tome page/ shield loot runs when that there is easier and better loot elsewhere?


But... Um.... Doesn't this... Um... :confused:

So you avoid difficult quests but are complaining that DDO will become easier?

[Kadran]

But... Um.... Doesn't this... Um... :confused:

So you avoid difficult quests but are complaining that DDO will become easier?

Just give up. That's what I did. My brain still hurts. He must have Psionic powers.

[Feyt]

@ impaqt

As to rising to the challenge...why would changing my tactics destroy my argument that challenge is good? It does mean I'm not stupid enough to persist in an effort that was not working.

NO. There is no... "maybe the challenge isn't to complete the quest" but to teach newbs... -the challenge is supposed to be completing the quest.

Helping people become better players is more rewarding to you. Not that this is wrong. I have grouped with you before and I know you are a very proficient player and that you are a patient player willing to teach.

I'm not campaigning for constant party wipes and impossible quests! I realize that there is a point where things become too hard, and I am simply putting it out there that the opposite is true - a point where things are too easy. And people may get what they like - an easy game, but they will soon get bored with something easy and leave.

Question: Is the game too easy if one person can complete any quest in the game (that does not physically need more than one)?

Check the accomplishment section. WF sorcs with unlimited mana pots can already do this.

[mhorn]

Somedays I just want to kill stuff, ya know? I LOVE going into WW on my lvl 16 Barb and just cleaning house. It's easy, fun, quick and stress relieving. Contrast that with a solo HOX for example (yes I know, but its for example). That may be just as fun, but not as quick or stress relieving. In fact, I may need to go kill 200 kobolds on easy just to wind down.

I am not sure the OP's comparing soloing a low level quest on a high level toon relates to the eStore. But, I may be wrong, I have been before.

[Impaqt]

@ impaqt

As to rising to the challenge...why would changing my tactics destroy my argument that challenge is good? It does mean I'm not stupid enough to persist in an effort that was not working.

We all have the ability to define our own challenges. The only reason I can think of to "Not Persist" is because you choose to give up. If you only run quests with the optimal groups, the best gear and the best players, you are indeed limiting your own challenges.



NO. There is no... "maybe the challenge isn't to complete the quest" but to teach newbs... -the challenge is supposed to be completing the quest.
Of course there is. Chalenges come from many directions. Its which ones your willing to accept that define the individual.



Helping people become better players is more rewarding to you. Not that this is wrong. I have grouped with you before and I know you are a very proficient player and that you are a patient player willing to teach.

no, to be honest, there are times when I cant stand to have new players or less skilled players along with me. It really depends on my mood. But more often than not, if I have the star, I'm going to do what it takes to win. If that takes spending a few minutes extra going over a plan or assigning a menial task to someone I feel isnt up to snuff, that show I approach it. The Goal is still to win. Its just another path.



I'm not campaigning for constant party wipes and impossible quests! I realize that there is a point where things become too hard, and I am simply putting it out there that the opposite is true - a point where things are too easy. And people may get what they like - an easy game, but they will soon get bored with something easy and leave.

The game has survived with its current player base not because of the challenge but because of the desire to better your characters. The percentage of players that strive for uberness is pretty low.. and the percentage of people that are actually impressed by that uberness is even lower. Games cant cater to the 1% They have to mold themselves to the masses to be successful. THey have to OFFER the challenges some people want, and I feel DDO does a great job in that regard. You say you expect to see the game become to easy, but you arent even looking for the challenges that are here now.



Question: Is the game too easy if one person can complete any quest in the game (that does not physically need more than one)?
no, Of course not. There is a percentage of the gaming population that simply are better than the rest.. Better reflexes, more resources, more analytical, They strive to be the best and have the ability to create their own challenges that they find rewarding. Why else would people like Oddlived still play this game?



Check the accomplishment section. WF sorcs with unlimited mana pots can already do this.

I dont understand this argument/Question at all. I've solo'd a lot of high end content on my clerics and arcanes... With and without large quantities of mana pots. I look for the challenge and if one isnt in front of me, I create one. I have no reason to believe this wont be the case in DDO:EU.

[Feyt]

check cforce's post - "the just don't use it" fallacy (in general gameplay) . i agree with his reasoning and it is why i originally posted.

[Issip]

This is why...you collect only 200 dollars after passing go in monopoly and not all of the money in the bank (or why you can't buy the monopoly money with real life money...

My vote for Quote of the month.

At first I was very angry at the DDO store, but now i realize I don't even have to quit, I'm just going to quit paying. F2P FTW!

[maddmatt70]

So your telling me that you tried to increase your challenge by letting unknowns into your groups.. and when they failed, you gave up because it wasnt fun? Instead of rising to the "Challenge", you quit. Great argument ya got there.....:rolleyes:

"I want this game to challenge me more..... As long as I always win.... " you're no different than the majority of players.... You have completely and utterly destroyed your entire argument with that statement.

Maybe the challenge isnt to complete the quest in that instance... maybe the challenge is helping those newbs get a better grasp on the game.. Help them to be contributing members of the team...

Helping people become better players is always more rewarding to me than pulling another Large splintered Horn.

I just ran an elite vod last time via the lfm. One of my guildies needed a tharnes goggles like right now so we needed a shot at more loot. We ended up with a person in the raid that had never run a VOD ever and 3 other people that I could never remember running with ever and that were either guildess or in guilds I do not usually run with. We completed and it was alot of fun except for one person ruining the experience somewhat, but that is another story. Challenging yourself is fun. I can not help, but think when I see this clamor for running end raids on normal just how boring people who play DDO are. (by the way 8 raid loot dropped and my guildie got his goggles woot).

Just the other day I joined someone's Kobold Elite run. He was on his cleric and he had the lfm up for awhile like a half an hour sort of awhile. People were not rushing to join his lfm. You know what we had alot of fun and it was a successful completion. Why people are so boring that they do not want to challenge themselves is beyond me.

I ran a hound elite the other week and it was not successful. It was a frustrating experience because the clerics did a great job keeping the dogs up, but we still failed. It is worth trying for that again and again on elite because its more fun for the melee and casters and quite frankly the hound is a boring raid for everyone but the clerics. The more excitement and challenge the better.

[Yajerman01]

"Do you find doing WW elite on a level 16 character rewarding?"

Yes, I find it rewarding that I can go in there and berate little kolbolds for not living up to their mothers expectations, while I have advanced in experience, power and abilities. I enjoy squashing them with eas as I laugh at them while they try to hit me. I enjoy running through everything to gather them all in one spot and squash them to smithereens. FOR I AM UBER!

[SimonB]

So, if you use the store to solo ... you are probably doing solo now anyway. And if you are soloing, who knows what you do?

If you want the challenge, which some people claim does not exist now, why can't you do something like permadeath and role players and create groups or guilds which play by your rules?

Why is the only answer to create a hard rule that everyone must live by despite their play style? The biggest problem for challenge in this game isn't the store, it is players running the same quests so often they have them memorized. This can only be [partially] resolved through more content released at a faster pace.

The amount of Dev time to create content means that it can never be released as fast as players can master it.

The more realistic thing to do is to increase challenge to make each completion worth the effort and take longer whilst maintaining fun. Problem is for some people effort/skill isn't fun so they oppose raising the challenge.

[Montrose]

Honestly? Yes, it is a little fun to play around in the WW at level 16.

I do get a guilty pleasure out of rounding up tons of mobs and then casting a fireball and watching the carnage.

Or creating a huge stone garden of little kobolds.

Or gathering a ton of kobolds and then casting cloudkill and watching them all vaporize. That's kinda fun too.

Or when you cast a disco ball and then dance with the kobolds like some kind of weird sewer rave... you have to admit that's just plain hilarious.

[Yajerman01]

Honestly? Yes, it is a little fun to play around in the WW at level 16.

I do get a guilty pleasure out of rounding up tons of mobs and then casting a fireball and watching the carnage.

Or creating a huge stone garden of little kobolds.

Or gathering a ton of kobolds and then casting cloudkill and watching them all vaporize. That's kinda fun too.

Or when you cast a disco ball and then dance with the kobolds like some kind of weird sewer rave... you have to admit that's just plain hilarious.


And when im drunk I enjoy it more - by dancing around or killing them with coal chunks from x-mas - yes, the pleasure is all mine Mwha ha ha haaaaa

[Vormaerin]

The intention of the normal/hard/elite structure is to provide the differing challenge levels that are sought within the community. I think the flaw in the system is that you have to run it on normal and hard before you can run it on elite. That means unless normal is the quest mode you most enjoy, you have to put up with the easier content at least once, perhaps twice.

The argument that the store will destroy challenge is seriously flawed. It assumes that most of the player base can and will spend money at that rate just because its possible. It assumes that the ability to spend money for such things will be worse for the game than the current ability to stock up almost exactly the same, just using the AH and in game gold. It assumes that your fun will be adversely affected by what others do in their own instance of the quest.

I don't think any of those three assumptions hold water.

If the people who already recall and return instead buy shrines, great. I don't play with them anyway and at least their silliness might pay for more new dungeons I can experience. If people who already /death around instead buy teleport wands, same thing.

This is a game in the "fun and games" sense for most people. It is not a competitive challenge. What I find fun and challenging is not what others do. Permadeath...not for me. Recalling and reentering if I'm out of mana....not for me. Buying my way through dungeons with the TurbineStore... also not for me.

I fail to see how other people setting different standards of challenge for themselves matters to me. My mana bar doesn't suddenly fill up because some player in another instance decides to use store or AH bought elixirs. Parvo's characters don't suddenly come back to life because someone else now buys self rez cookies.

Turbine's already said that store stuff is bound, so I'm not even at risk of getting store cooties all by accident. My raids aren't going to be ruined by numbnuts popping instashrines, because we've already been told those won't work in raids. Let other people have their fun the way they like it. Whether that is more or less challenging than what you find fun.

[FluffyCalico]

I pose this question because of the trend that DDO: EU is clearly heading towards. Resurrection cakes, mana pots, experience potions, easier curse removal, time based removal of negative levels, quest level adjustment, shrine's resetting...the list goes on and on.

Of course this is all an effort to appeal to a broader player base, enhance profit, and hopefully save what we all know to be a fading game. I have read most of the posts on the Beta and regular forums about the game changes. The sentiments are usually split between experienced player versus newer player in an argument about whether the changes are needed.

Obviously some changes are needed and the new blood attracted by free DDO will be more than welcome. My concern is that we will experience a short rebirth, based on the new release, but eventually because of the lack of challenge presented the game will no longer be able to hold anyone's interest for an extended amount of time. How fun is it to do waterworks elite on your level 16 character? It is my opinion that this will be the challenge rating of most quests with the newly implemented changes.

I encourage the developers to read the forums and see that there are two distinct player populations and that they shouldn't be too focused on developing content for a the newer / broader player base that is not challenging. Having content from easy to down right impossible will keep ALL players challenged and trying to devise new ways to defeat difficult quests. As it stands, I doubt many players will continue to play after the challenge is gone.

Believe it or not WW on elite might be harder than some of our current content. Reaver, Monestary, Colesence chamber etc. :eek: