Build Advice: 11Palidan-9Ranger or 12Palidan-6Ranger-2Monk or 12Paladin-6Ranger-2Rog

[DavydM]

Hi all,

I currently have a 11 Palidan-3 Rogue-2 Fighter (Davryn Redstrum on Sarlona) who after much struggle getting him leveled I am really enjoying playing now (has become my 2nd favourite character). But I am now thinking of redoing a new character but adding Ranger into the mix so was wondering what people thought would be better;

11 Palidan-9 Ranger (Evasion and wont suffer the -1 to BAB of the other 2)
12 Palidan-6 Ranger-2 Monk (Evasion and Monk wisdom bonus to AC) (a little too much FOTM for me but could be fun)
12 Paladin-6 Ranger-2 Rogue (Evasion and Rogue skills)

All would have the Ranger Tempest Enhancments...

Am thinking either Human or drow or elf maybe halfling, dont really like Dorfs and hate WF (sorry all you WF :)

So let me know what you think are the pros and cons :)

[Thanimal]

In my mind, the single biggest gain of the Ranger levels is +10% attack speed at Ranger 6. But you can also get that from Zeal at Paladin 14. So stopping at Paladin 12 to me seems like using 6 levels to get something you could get with just two more in your primary class. If you want the peak damage output, than the Tempest/Zeal combo is probably the way to go: Paladin 14/Ranger 6. And if you want Evasion and good DPS on a mostly-Paladin, then I think you want Paladin 18/Monk 2.

I'd really encourage you not to be a racist. :) (Heheh, I wonder if that will get censored out.) Warforged brings an awful lot to the table for DPS-oriented Paladins: Power Attack enhancement are the only way to add race-based damage to the top-of-the-heap Khopesh; combined immunities of Paladin and WF are *awesome*; Lay on Hands works at 100% on WF; WF are capable of the second best unarmored AC in the game (behind Halfling).

I personally am a major Drow-skeptic, but I've finally made a Drow that *really* works for me, and I'm having a ton of fun playing him. I'm glad I didn't just assume I wouldn't enjoy playing him. (I'm still a Drow-skeptic, btw -- I think most people think they are much better than they really are. However, for my particular Rogue Intimitank build, Drow is the optimal choice.)

[DavydM]

Thanks for the advice :)

The other nice things from Ranger would be Rams might and dual wielding for free + favoured enemies...

I usually make charaters that are fun to play and experiment with things never really liked playing as a min maxer but am thinking about it for this character...

Sorry but I just can not bring my self to play a WF I'm just too much of a DnD purest (been playing and DMing since 1985) I hated phsyioncs and Tinker gnomes got on my nerves, WF are just too much to bare for me (although I am really considering redoing my Wizard-Rogue as a WF but I didnt say that :) so you never know :eek:

My favourite DnD races are Human and Elf but I gave up on ADnD when 3rd Ed came out played a bit of 3.5 but I still much prefer 2nd Ed...

[Thanimal]

The other nice things from Ranger would be Rams might and dual wielding for free + favoured enemies...

True, but Paladin levels also grant a lot of great stuff, including more DPS from both Divine Might and higher tiers of PrEs. As much as I love multiclassing, you have to be careful not to get mostly the same stuff from your "other" class. The other class needs to bring significant benefits to outweigh the inherent benefits of specialization. I'm not saying 12/6/2 is a *bad* build, but I'm pretty sure it's not an *optimal* build. Obviously, that doesn't mean you can't play it!!


I'm just too much of a DnD purest (been playing and DMing since 1985)

Fwiw, I first played the Basic Set in 1980. But this game is D&D in-name-only. And its resemblance to 1st or 2nd edition is barely even perceptible. The stats do have the same names, I must admit...

[DavydM]

Yep it definetly is only DnD in name for sure :)

The other idea I had was 12 Ranger - 8 Palidan but I think I wouldnt get any real benefit from the Palidan levels with only 8.

If mod 9 ever arrives and I can get my pali past 16 then it might give me a better idea as well :) for someone that never really liked palidans he is fun to play with his UMD etc :)

[Shroonith]

14pld/4rng/2mnk would be something to consider as well. you dont have to use your precious feats for tempest, but still get some FE and rams might.

[Aranticus]

14pld/4rng/2mnk would be something to consider as well. you dont have to use your precious feats for tempest, but still get some FE and rams might.

bad idea. at L14 you get zeal spell but why just that? might as well go 14pal/6rgr! if my 1 mth absence did not affect my understanding, zeal (sacred) and tempest (competence) should stack. also you get the free itwf feat at 6 ranger and your FE does more damage (+2 damage at L5)

the downside to this build is the lack of evasion but instead relies heavily on good saves (esp reflex) to avoid most damage by making the saves.

[DavydM]

Interesting point - does anyone know if zeal and tempest stack? I'm guessing noone except for those that played on the test server would know for sure...

[Thanimal]

Interesting point - does anyone know if zeal and tempest stack? I'm guessing noone except for those that played on the test server would know for sure...

While I have not personally done so, it has been confirmed by many that they do stack -- that's why I mentioned Paladin 14/Ranger 6 in my first post. Also, it's "obvious" that they stack based on the rules, since Tempest is a Competence bonus and Zeal is a Sacred bonus.

[Thanimal]

Next, I need to back-pedal a bit on my comments regarding Paladin 12/Ranger 6/Monk 2. I've actually stumbled onto a potentially very interesting build with exactly that level combination. I think it's a poor choice for an offensive bent, BUT I didn't really consider how this could work as a Halfling Hate Tank using Paladin Defender of Syberis and going the Finesse route to emphasize DEX and get fantastic AC and ridiculous saves with Evasion. For that purpose, the Ranger levels DO give us something critical that further Paladin levels cannot -- DEX and Reflex save increases.

I'm actually currently exploring this build on paper, and comparing it with a few other Halfling Hate Tank ideas I have. These are intriguing because Halflings can achieve awesome defense, but that "little" -4 Intimidate penalty always seemed to make them a poor choice for intimitanking. Hate-based tanking, however, may be a different story.

Just didn't want to look like a massive hypocrit if I publish a P12/R6/M2 build after kinda dissing it. :)

[DavydM]

hehe yes halfling was something I was thinking about as well :) let me know how your build comes along...

[maddmatt70]

Next, I need to back-pedal a bit on my comments regarding Paladin 12/Ranger 6/Monk 2. I've actually stumbled onto a potentially very interesting build with exactly that level combination. I think it's a poor choice for an offensive bent, BUT I didn't really consider how this could work as a Halfling Hate Tank using Paladin Defender of Syberis and going the Finesse route to emphasize DEX and get fantastic AC and ridiculous saves with Evasion. For that purpose, the Ranger levels DO give us something critical that further Paladin levels cannot -- DEX and Reflex save increases.

I'm actually currently exploring this build on paper, and comparing it with a few other Halfling Hate Tank ideas I have. These are intriguing because Halflings can achieve awesome defense, but that "little" -4 Intimidate penalty always seemed to make them a poor choice for intimitanking. Hate-based tanking, however, may be a different story.

Just didn't want to look like a massive hypocrit if I publish a P12/R6/M2 build after kinda dissing it. :)

From a defensive standpoint it is one of the best builds. Mavnito (a friend of mine) made basically this build in mod 7. It was a 8 pally 6 ranger 2 monk dex based halfling twf. Gets aggro really easily and is very effective at tanking sulu and the like. There is no reason to have intimidate in the build with the pally incite hate and the like. That probably is not what the OP wants but is a fine build. 14 pally 6 ranger has a very different function because it is an offensive killing machine, but does not have very much defense. They both are effective builds and the two best options for the OP.

[Thanimal]

From a defensive standpoint it is one of the best builds. Mavnito (a friend of mine) made basically this build in mod 7. It was a 8 pally 6 ranger 2 monk dex based halfling twf. Gets aggro really easily and is very effective at tanking sulu and the like. There is no reason to have intimidate in the build with the pally incite hate and the like. That probably is not what the OP wants but is a fine build. 14 pally 6 ranger has a very different function because it is an offensive killing machine, but does not have very much defense. They both are effective builds and the two best options for the OP.

Cool! Thanks for the info.

(EDITED: I was being an idiot and forgetting about Divine Righteousness.)

Intriguingly, I found that every single combination of Monk 2 with {Paladin 12 or Fighter 12} with {Fighter 6 or Paladin 6 or Ranger 6} looks like a high-AC, decent-DPS hate-based tank. But I think Paladin 12/Ranger 6/Monk 2 narrowly emerges the winner by having even MORE ridiculous saves than the other combinations.

Fair chance I'm gonna detail this out and publish it soonish. Perhaps your friend can comment on how his was different or similar.

[DavydM]

Did a bit of a rough plan in the character planner (still needs a lot of work) but is starting to look ok I think :)


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.00
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Daivat Redstrum
Level 16 Lawful Good Human Male
(8 Paladin \ 2 Monk \ 6 Ranger)
Hit Points: 274
Spell Points: 184
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 22
Reflex: 19
Will: 15

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 16)
Strength 16 22
Dexterity 13 16
Constitution 13 14
Intelligence 10 10
Wisdom 12 14
Charisma 14 16

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Strength used at level 16
+1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 16
+1 Tome of Wisdom used at level 16

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 16)
Balance 2 12
Bluff 2 3
Concentration 5 18
Diplomacy 2 8
Disable Device n/a n/a
Haggle 2 6
Heal 1 2
Hide 5 15
Intimidate 4 5
Jump 7 19
Listen 1 2
Move Silently 1 3
Open Lock n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 0 0
Search 4 5
Spot 1 2
Swim 3 6
Tumble 2 5
Use Magic Device 4 12.5

Level 1 (Ranger)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Goblinoid
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Feat: (Human Bonus) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons


Level 2 (Ranger)


Level 3 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Dodge
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Mobility


Level 4 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Power Attack


Level 5 (Paladin)


Level 6 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Spring Attack
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Human Versatility I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil I
Enhancement: Paladin Devotion I
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma I
Enhancement: Ranger Dexterity I
Enhancement: Monk Wisdom I
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness I


Level 7 (Ranger)


Level 8 (Ranger)


Level 9 (Ranger)
Feat: (Selected) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Khopesh
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Undead


Level 10 (Ranger)


Level 11 (Paladin)


Level 12 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Oversized Two Weapon Fighting


Level 13 (Paladin)


Level 14 (Paladin)


Level 15 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell


Level 16 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Ranger Sprint Boost I
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Constitution I
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Strength II
Enhancement: Human Versatility II
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good II
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good II
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Righteousness I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice I
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands II
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil II
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Racial Toughness III
Enhancement: Ranger Tempest I
Enhancement: Paladin Devotion II
Enhancement: Paladin Energy of the Templar I
Enhancement: Paladin Energy of the Templar II
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma II
Enhancement: Ranger Dexterity II
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness II
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness III

[Thanimal]

This build seems like it should be effective, but I don't think it's optimal, for the reasons that others have stated: If you want to go Paladin 12/Ranger 6/Monk 2, the most bang-for-buck comes from a more defensive focus. Such a build can end up with fabulous defense and enough DPS to hold aggro with Siberys hate bonuses. But if you go the STR route, you end up with "pretty good" DPS and "pretty good" AC. But not good enough AC to go full-on tank, and therefore your AC is largely "wasted" (in a group anyhow). As previously noted, the best all-out DPS routes are Paladin 18/Monk 2 (with KotC and very high CHA for Divine Might) or Paladin 14/Ranger 6 or Paladin 20(each of which give up Evasion).

I am increasingly convinced that Paladin 12/Ranger 6/Monk 2 can be an optimal build, but to do so it needs to max AC and Hate (and then pick up whatever DPS it can at the margin). With the "requirement" to max AC, I feel Halfling becomes the obvious choice, since every other race gives up at least one point of AC vs. Halfling. (Even the Human's extra feat doesn't eliminate the gap because Halfling has an inherent +3 advantage from 4 points of DEX and 1 racial bonus.)

Please understand I have a very strong interest in build optimality. For me, optimality and fun go hand in hand. For most, that is not the case, and I repeat that the build you've posted will be effective as is. But I believe there are builds that can do the same things better. I remain open to being proven wrong, of course.

[Thanimal]

Ok, putting aside my high level "issues," I think you are missing two feats that are absolutely mandatory here: Improved Critical and Greater Two Weapon Fighting. Each of these feats causes HUGE increases in DPS. Without them your DPS will not even be in the ballpark of the optimal DPS builds.

The challenge is to remove two feats. Focus: Slashing can drop trivially -- you shouldn't have any trouble hitting stuff and even if you do, iCrit and gTWF will still increase your DPS *much* more.

Then I think you have to drop Extend (or postpone it to 18). It's a nice-to-have for sure, but I don't think it even touches iCrit and gTWF in terms of how they improve the build.