Is this a good bard build?

[BoBoDaClown]

Hi guys,

So I think I may reroll a bard soon and go pure all the way. I want the character to:

a) be good at CC endgame, if possible.
b) be good at buffs/healing
c) be able to mix it up with a bit of dps on occasion.

So, primarily a caster.

16 Bard
Human (Would rather not Drow - unless they are obviously better)
Starting stats:
Str: 15
Dex: 8
Con: 15
Wis: 8
Int: 8
Cha: 18

Are these stats ok? Too many dumps? Raise Dex and Wis by a couple each?

Enhancements:
Most important will be song and healing. One thing I never figured, does the wand and scroll mastery affect a 'Heal Scroll'? I assume not?

Feats:
Spell Focus 1 and 2 (Enchantment)
Spell Penetration 1
Toughness
IC piercing (at least until greensteel)
Empower Healing
Heighten

Other desirable feats:
1) Extend
2) Spell Pen 2
3) Skill Focus UMD

-I will swap IC piercing for Spell Pen 2 if I get a min 2 greensteel rapier.
-I will start with extend and swap for Spell Pen 1 once haste has a decent minute on it.
- I could even go with no IC, and try to get deaths through vorpals/disruptors/smiters etc and then be able to run with extend?

What do you think? I am nervous about no extend (a staple of my old bard). Also, will this bard be able to melee? I am used to my old bard (1 level of Fighter) getting some decent damage with a two hander. Will this one be able to do some noticeable damage with a rapier (no PA), or maybe stick with a vorp?

Cheers for any advice!

BoBo

[Samadhi]

I have a bard build very similar to this in starting stats - works very well. Scroll mastery does work on heal scrolls. Personally, I tried living without extend, but I couldn't. Personal preference. Overall, I think you have a very versatile and effective build here.

The only thing I really did different on mine was, instead of the spell focuses and pens, I took more toughnesses so I could hit the 400HP mark. I didn't like getting owned too easily. And used staffs for the extra DPS from a two-hander.

[BoBoDaClown]

I have a bard build very similar to this in starting stats - works very well. Scroll mastery does work on heal scrolls. Personally, I tried living without extend, but I couldn't. Personal preference. Overall, I think you have a very versatile and effective build here.

The only thing I really did different on mine was, instead of the spell focuses and pens, I took more toughnesses so I could hit the 400HP mark. I didn't like getting owned too easily. And used staffs for the extra DPS from a two-hander.


Interesting - do you think wielding a staff two handed outweighs the benefits of the critical range of a rapier? In fact, how does a rapier stack up against a longsword (higher damage, lower crit range) or a staff (TH Weapon)?

Cheers

[Samadhi]

Longswords are weak, period.

I use power attack instead of improved crit, and in that circumstance the QStaff wins. The only thing that really sucks is smiting or the like when you go blunt.

Also, test and see if master's touch screws you up or not. It doesn't for me, so I can use it no problem, but a lot of other people have issues with it.

[BoBoDaClown]

Longswords are weak, period.

I use power attack instead of improved crit, and in that circumstance the QStaff wins. The only thing that really sucks is smiting or the like when you go blunt.

Also, test and see if master's touch screws you up or not. It doesn't for me, so I can use it no problem, but a lot of other people have issues with it.


How would it 'screw' one up?

:)

[Noctus]

You forgot to add the human bonusfeat.

I wouldnt go out without Extend. Just too handy for the standart buffs you should keep up 24/7. Rage, Haste, Displacement.
Also Power Attack is very good when using a 2hander. (+10 damage) This would enable you to deal some serious suppoert damage.

So i´d use Spell Focus 2 and the Human bonus feat to get those 2 feats.


Forget about the Rapier if you arent going TWF, proper 2handed weapons will deal more damage. Ignore the Quarterstaff, its stats are rubbish. Cast Master´s Touch and use a Greataxe. Or even a Greatsword, Maul or Falchion if you have one with very good enchantments lying around.
All but the Quarterstaff, its the worst 2handed weapon.

[BoBoDaClown]

You forgot to add the human bonusfeat.

I wouldnt go out without Extend. Just too handy for the standart buffs you should keep up 24/7. Rage, Haste, Displacement.
Also Power Attack is very good when using a 2hander. (+10 damage) This would enable you to deal some serious suppoert damage.

So i´d use Spell Focus 2 and the Human bonus feat to get those 2 feats.


Forget about the Rapier if you arent going TWF, proper 2handed weapons will deal more damage. Ignore the Quarterstaff, its stats are rubbish. Cast Master´s Touch and use a Greataxe. Or even a Greatsword, Maul or Falchion if you have one with very good enchantments lying around.
All but the Quarterstaff, its the worst 2handed weapon.

I like most of your advice Noctus, but I don't think I have forgotten the bonus feat? I have listed 7 feats, don't humans get 1,1,3,6,9,12,15.

How does:
1) Extend, Toughness
3) Empower Healing
6) Spell Focus 1
9) Heighten
12) Imp Crit (swap out later)
15) Spell Pen 1

Look like?

I will use great axe with Master's touch - a great suggestion, but I just don't see the room for PA? Unless there is one feat there that you suggest I lose? Problem is - I want to aim for successful high level CC, and I hear that you have to be pretty specialised for that. Also, with my last bard, PA was a little situational (that minus to hit sometimes hurt).

I guess I could lose Toughness, but I was planning on taking the enhancements to make myself less squishy, which is always a good thing.

Anyway, time for bed, I'll check here tomorrow, thanks for the advice! Keep it coming!

Cheers

BoBo

[MetaSyn]

heighten- not needed for now, mod 9 end game may change that
empower healing- not needed
improve crit perc- not needed (unless u twf) and wouldnt waist the feat on any improve crit with this build
UMD skill focus- good for a mid lvl pump, not needed end game
extend-almost a must for now atleast

masters touch- can scew things up, by creating serious lag problems, as it applies to every weapon u are carrying, this goes for when u cast it and when it wears off either timed or resting ( sucks when it happens in battle as u get dispelled ). i am one that has this problem with it. if ya do, just watch ur times and carry very few weapons. not everyone has this problem if ya don't ya have no worries :)

[M.D.madrax]

Ya for a weapon Id go with whatever thw does most base damage forget crit ranges or anything else unless you specced for them it wont help same goes for one handers I'm no math wiz but Im guessing a long sword will do more damage in long run in this builds hands than a rapier, after all its all those bonus's to damage and speed that make those crit multipliers gravy and you dont have them. So masters touch ftw +big fn stick

[BoBoDaClown]

Hey guys, thanks for the advice. I think I'm going to focus on the more combat orientated feats until later in the game, and then if my spells have trouble sticking switch some feats out.

Something like:

1) Toughness and Extend
3) Empower Healing (do want to be a decent healer)
6) Power Attack
9) Heighten (why would this not be necessary for a CC bard?)
12) Improve Crit Slash
15) Spell Pen 1

Then assuming the gear I want at 16:

1) Toughness and Extend
3) Empower Healing
6) May swap PA for Spell Focus 1
9) Heighten
12) Spell Pen 1
15) Spell Pen 2

Does the Minos helmet toughness bug still exist - where it gave you access to the enhancements?

Cheers

BoBo

[Noctus]

I like most of your advice Noctus, but I don't think I have forgotten the bonus feat? I have listed 7 feats,


Doooh, my bad.
Counting as high as 7 can be hard sometimes.......:rolleyes:






Okay, so i´d try out Power Attack at 12th level, see if it works out alright. If you see too many misses occure, switch it out for IC:Slashing. You should be fine on the lower AC trashmobs, how good it works out on the higher AC monsters and how often you fight these in melee, you have to find out by actual play experience, as i dont know your barding style on this new-to-roll bard.

On a 2hander the additional damage from Power Attack outwightes the added damage from the more frequent crits from IC. If you still can hit reliably.

[Aaxeyu]

/elitism on
The only good bard build is the TWF max str one going melee with warchanter
/elitism off

[MetaSyn]

/elitism on
The only good bard build is the TWF max str one going melee with warchanter
/elitism off

the way end game is now, agree 100%

BoBo, hey i suggest play'n ur bard for awhile, see how ya like to play it, ur rollup u have there will give ya a good chance to see little of all a bard can do, u wont excell in any direction with that rollup, after playing for awhile ul'll fine tune it to ur like'n and play style.

there is perty much 3 kinds a bards

warchanter- melee
spellsinger- crowd controller
virtuoso- best for healer spec'd

all are greatly different in Stats, feats and enhancements, and what u got go'n on is little of all, u will run into problems later by do'n that.

empower heal not needed, cause with that build u'll be outa spell points before ya know it, ur best heals come from scrolls anyway.

heighten not needed, cause with a good cc bard eveything already lands, as long as ya have the spell pen. (mod 9 may change this )

[M.D.madrax]

Ya you should not go middle of the road I'd pick warchanter or spellsinger/virtuoso and push what they do as far as possible.

Back in gh/necro day spellsingers really did rule and could easly take the place of a cleric and arcane. Devils in vale arent too bad but under the market place its tuff being a spellsinger, same with new dragon touched quests. Hopefully mod 9 will be better for spellsingers like old days.

I like spellsingers still have a few of them Id say that between buffing, healing, debuffing, utility spells and cc you dont have alot of time for melee combat anyway. So Id strap ic pierce as soon as you can. Ive had a spellsinger that used a regular x-bow b4 to debuff, help stat damage or cc it was somewhat effective. Most of the melee my spellsinger does is wp or woo stick a held mob. But in the rare instance I am hacking at somethings back (make sure you dont have agro) Ill use a great axe or wounder. So its true nothing beats a minII khopesh or a w/p rapier but when your a spellsinger and you dont have fe or sa or 30-60 str or p-attack or high bab or attack speed it really doesnt make much difference what you use and not worth the waste of any feats over. Its like wondering if a toothpick or a toothbrush will get threw a brick wall faster.


But if you go warchanter then totally different story you only need about 14 levels of bard not even, will need plenty of hp 400+, twf, str, khopeshes-daxe, no more than 14 chr. You gotta weigh out how much dps do you bring to table yourself + all the buffs you give out compaired to a real tank if its less then you are dead weight and group is better off with real tank.

[Comfortably]

I'd go maxamize over empower healing anyday.

[Freeman]

But if you go warchanter then totally different story you only need about 14 levels of bard not even...

Just keep in mind that by not staying pure bard, you will miss out on the last bump to Inspire Courage at level 20, reducing the advantage your Inspire Courage gets over a pure non-Warchanter to just +1 damage.

[M.D.madrax]

ya true from level 14-20 your inspire goes up +1 but +1 for 6 levels that could get ya tempest or 4 fighter feats or evasion not worth it in my opinion. Besides level 20 is years away do you want to wait forever only to get +1 damage and attack?

[Freeman]

ya true from level 14-20 your inspire goes up +1 but +1 for 6 levels that could get ya tempest or 4 fighter feats or evasion not worth it in my opinion. Besides level 20 is years away do you want to wait forever only to get +1 damage and attack?

Years? I don't know when Mod 9 will be released, but it won't be years.(The game won't last that long without it) As for whether it is worth it or not, that depends on the player, hence why I said it was something to keep in mind.

[M.D.madrax]

Ya well it feels like years since they announced level 20 cap so was being sarcastic but ya I am not playing last couple months and am bored and being trollish sorry.

[BoBoDaClown]

I'd go maxamize over empower healing anyday.


Hey Comfort - why is that? I thought at endgame you would get more healing for your sp out of empower?

[BoBoDaClown]

Ya you should not go middle of the road I'd pick warchanter or spellsinger/virtuoso and push what they do as far as possible.



Thanks for the advice. I'm trying to go the spellsinger route - maybe picking up PA while levelling, but dropping them in favour of something like:

1 Extend and Toughness
3 Empower Healing
6 Heighten
9 Spell Focus
12 Spell Pen
15 Spell Pen

Trying to be almost as CC as I can? Is there anything else I can really do?

Cheers

[BoBoDaClown]

the way end game is now, agree 100%

BoBo, hey i suggest play'n ur bard for awhile, see how ya like to play it, ur rollup u have there will give ya a good chance to see little of all a bard can do, u wont excell in any direction with that rollup, after playing for awhile ul'll fine tune it to ur like'n and play style.

there is perty much 3 kinds a bards

warchanter- melee
spellsinger- crowd controller
virtuoso- best for healer spec'd

all are greatly different in Stats, feats and enhancements, and what u got go'n on is little of all, u will run into problems later by do'n that.

empower heal not needed, cause with that build u'll be outa spell points before ya know it, ur best heals come from scrolls anyway.

heighten not needed, cause with a good cc bard eveything already lands, as long as ya have the spell pen. (mod 9 may change this )


I can see what you mean in terms of empower healing, but I have found the boost helpful in the past.

When I cast Master's Touch, the game goes all 'jittery' for a second - will this effect everybody in my group, or just me?

Cheers

[BoBoDaClown]

Thanks for all the advice guys! Useful stuff - have asked specific questions in the posts above (not sure how to respond to multiple quotes).
Cheers

[MetaSyn]

When I cast Master's Touch, the game goes all 'jittery' for a second - will this effect everybody in my group, or just me?

just u will get the jitter/lag, but u being affected could effect the group if it happens at the wrong time or when u are playing an important role in a group, ex. run'n stones and charming pups in 'The Hound' .

work arounds to the use of Masters Touch, dont cast it on those occasions, know ur fights/enemies (if they dispell dont use it), watch the time left on the spell, or the best work around i feel is just carry only a few multipurpose weapons (the more weapons u are carrying the longer the jitter/lag will be). look at ur combat log when u cast it,when u rest,when it wears off. u'll see what and why its do'n that to u, then report it so maybe(thats a big maybe :( ) they will get to fix'n it

or u could just use weapons allowable to the class/race and dump the spell completely, but hey what fun is that at times :P
consinder also that at end game after all ur buffs even with the negative ull suffer from use'n cross class weapons, u'll still will hit most trash mobs, and with a spell singer ya probably wont be swinging to much on raid bosses

if ya go'n with them feats, i dont want to tell ya they are right or wrong, it really comes to play style but i'd change the order around as to importance to what go'n on and/or needed at specific lvls. i'd try to get ur spell focus and spell pens in sooner like lvls 6-9 and save hieghten for lvl 15. Threnals, CO6, Desert, Gianthold is where spell pen becomes important, so thats by lvl 10, but thats just me, hope ya just taken this as advise not as a right or wrong thing, bards are really fun to play no matter how ya build them, one of my favorite classes to play, hope ya enjoy them too, thats all that really matters anyways. :)

1. extend, spell focus
3. UMD skill focus (drop later when u can hit a 40 without, for maybe ur toughness or another spell focus)
6. spell pen
9. spell pen
12. toughness ( dont think u Need this on a spell singer, and deff not at early lvls u wont have the AP's to put into this, kinda make it moot till u do, would consider completely drop'n this maybe till cap increase, my spellsing has close to 300 hps without it and still has room for more, u tell me is that enuff :P) this is where i'd put ur emp heal if ya like to have it. ull have more SP by then to make better use of it to where its just not a complete drain on ur mana.)
15 heighten (heighten has no use if ya cant get through the spell resistance, spell pens have to come first)

UMD skill focus is very nice to have round lvl 7 and until u can hit a 40 umd without the skill, but not needed on a spellsinger with some work/gear at end game.

this is my spellsingers set up, take it for whats its worth.

Drow

both spell pens
both spell focus enchant
extend
mental toughness ( most likely swapn out for heighten whenever the friggn mod drops )

this toon is old since drow have been released i still play him often, but not as much as warchanter ( endgame now warchanters are just so much more usefull, more so because CC isn't and they can hit as hard as anyother melee and endgame is all about DPS, just the way it is now. dont get me wrong spellsingers are and will be always the best crowd controllers in the game :) )

[Zenako]

On suggestion as well. Bards still have a form of CC that any other class would die for, their Songs. 95% lands, as long as you are prepared. I managed to find a nice item (like a Proof vs Poision with a Perform X kicker) that my Drow Spellsinger wears all the time. It is pretty easy to hit some essentially unbeatable Song DC's and stop a room in its tracks, if the group gives you a chance.

I also agree with the utility of various feats shifting a LOT over the life of the character. Skill Focus UMD is almost worthless overkill at cap (on a high CHA bard).

If taking any Meta beyond Extend, Empower Healing is perhaps the most useful for the type of Bard you are proposing. Maximize burns SP way to fast for just healing, and bards have few spells worth pumping up the damage for Maximize, unless you are really getting into Sonic type spells. Even then, the damage done pales compared to the stunning effect and how that renders them punching bags for the melees.

[Comfortably]

/elitism on
The only good bard build is the TWF max str one going melee with warchanter
/elitism off

I can actually agree with you on this one...

[Comfortably]

Hey Comfort - why is that? I thought at endgame you would get more healing for your sp out of empower?

Sorry I missed your question, I'll try to make it a bit more clear for ya.

Maxamize:
100% from Maxamize
50% sup pot 6
40% Ap line


Compaired to:
50% emp healing
50% sup pot 6
40% ap line


So you can see that you'd be healing 50% better with Maxamize at the cost of a few more sp.

If you are going to do a healing bard go spell singer for the 100sp and -10% sp cost.


Also chase this item to the end of the earth: A pimp staff (http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/jgould2005/DDO/Items/Weapons/StaffofthePetitioner.jpg)

[maddmatt70]

Sorry I missed your question, I'll try to make it a bit more clear for ya.

Maxamize:
100% from Maxamize
50% sup pot 6
40% Ap line


Compaired to:
50% emp healing
50% sup pot 6
40% ap line


So you can see that you'd be healing 50% better with Maxamize at the cost of a few more sp.

If you are going to do a healing bard go spell singer for the 100sp and -10% sp cost.


Also chase this item to the end of the earth: A pimp staff (http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/jgould2005/DDO/Items/Weapons/StaffofthePetitioner.jpg)

It really comes down to can you heal with empower healing or not as a bard? If you can't heal successfully with empower healing as a bard then try maximize if you can successfully heal with empower healing then stick with empower healing its more efficient and more bang for your buck.

[transtemporal]

Personally, I think any pure bard build that has heighten, spell pen, empower healing and max charisma is better served fascinating, dancing mobs, healing and doing crowd control, than contributing questionable DPS or trying to get vorps. Thats what the tanks are for.

Unless you've got WoPs or you're the only guy that can melee in a party or you're beating on a portal, I seriously wouldn't bother dude. Its a great spellcasting build. Concentrate on that.

If you want to make a melee bard (as I did), make Axeyus TWF str-based warchanter. It's so much fun it'll make your head spin. :)

[BoBoDaClown]

Temp: yeah temp, I agree. I don't want to be a melee bard - that is why I'm focussing on the other feats.

Matt and Comfort: I think I'll just try both feats out and see which one I am more comfortable with.

Zenako: yeah. I'm going to play UMD by ear.

Metasyn: Thanks for the advice re: Master's touch. I'll definitely bring in the spell pen earlier.

Thank you for all the constructive advice guys. I really appreciate it. The good thing is, most of the advice is about feats, which I can move around anyway!

Again, cheers :)

BoBo

[lOprahl]

Thanks for the advice. I'm trying to go the spellsinger route - maybe picking up PA while levelling, but dropping them in favour of something like:

1 Extend and Toughness
3 Empower Healing
6 Heighten
9 Spell Focus
12 Spell Pen
15 Spell Pen

Trying to be almost as CC as I can? Is there anything else I can really do?

Cheers

Drop the second spell pen. Get quicken.