Halfling 12/6/2 - Monk 2 vs. Rogue 2

[Arcannon]

Hi all I've been away for a few years (stopped when level cap was 11) and I'm looking to get back into DDO, casually with a duoing buddy at first, then maybe raiding later once I've discovered all the new content the old fashioned way (non zerging).

My question is this. If I go with a 12ftr/6rngr/2?? build will I be better off with monk or rogue for the 2?

Monk gives great ac bonuses along with feats and such, but I've read they may be nerfing the monk AC for non-pure monks. I want this guy to last so would like some input if anyone on the test server knows this will happen.

Rogue would give me open and disable so me and my buddy can enjoy the most of every new quest, but I'm worried I won't have a viable armor class if I decide to keep this character and raid with him later.

Also I don't have access to 32 point builds so I'd like to know if this type of character is still playable with either monk or rogue with only 28 points to spend. (Note I'm more interested in having fun than being uber, so if it still works but it's not ideal, that's ok with me. Just want to make sure I'm not wasting my time)

Any input or build suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

[maddmatt70]

Really the two extra feats for the monk levels are not that useful at the present time assuming they do not add new useful feats in the future of course. The analysis really is ac vs. umd + sneak damage + other rogue skills in my opinion. Since the ac really is not that great and since the to hit of mobs will likely be going up leading to ac characters having to really have a major focus for being a primary ac character the ac really just mitigates some trash mob damage. For experienced players who can just zoom to endgame I would make the rogue version over the monk version without a second thought. For a returning player who could use some trash mob mitigators while levelling up I would lean towards the monk

[Aaxeyu]

Monk levels are clearly superior. The two feats can make you fit dragonmarks. Combine those with the really high AC you can get, along with high saves, evasion and high DPS you get a real powerhouse.
Monk Ac will most probably not be nerfed. It's working as intended.

Rogue levels can't even begin to compete imo.

[Thanimal]

Monk levels are clearly superior. The two feats can make you fit dragonmarks. Combine those with the really high AC you can get, along with high saves, evasion and high DPS you get a real powerhouse.
Monk Ac will most probably not be nerfed. It's working as intended.

Rogue levels can't even begin to compete imo.

I'm with aax on this one, and doubly so because he's been heavily playing a similar WF and seemingly loving every minute of it!

[Unknownperson]

Really comes down to this. With monk you get two extra feats (everyone wants CE, toughness, and dodge anyways) and a bonus to AC if you plan on investing in wisdom. With Rogue you get UMD and possibly some rogue skills if you invest in them.

You choice depending on what you are building. Personally I solo a lot and hate any character I build without UMD, so I would pick rogue, but for others that might not be so important.

[Arcannon]

Thanks very much for the replies. I got just what I wanted out of them. If my partner goes with a wizard/rogue I will be going 2 monk. If he does not I will go 2 rogue this time around and then build a 2 monk when I get 32 point builds. For stats with the 12ftr/6rngr/2rogue how does this look?

str 14
dex 16
con 14
int 14
wis 8
cha 8

Or I could put con at 10 and bump dex to 18 to start. Int is at 14 because I want to have the rogue skills at or near max and I want CE. Any suggestions or comments?

Also no access to tomes at this time.

[Unknownperson]

Are you planning on being str or dex based?

[maddmatt70]

Monk levels are clearly superior. The two feats can make you fit dragonmarks. Combine those with the really high AC you can get, along with high saves, evasion and high DPS you get a real powerhouse.
Monk Ac will most probably not be nerfed. It's working as intended.

Rogue levels can't even begin to compete imo.

Monk ac is not so much getting nerfed as is all ac will need to be focused on more then just having a monk level with decent dex and wisdom. You will need to have CE and/or a highish dex or wisdom along with of course alot of ac gear which will take away from the offensive gear you could be wearing. This is a mod 9 question more so then a mod 8 i.e. what will be the ac thresholds in mod 9/level 20 and how much ac gear will be needed to be worn to reach these thresholds.

I would take no fail umd heal scrolls over 4 or 5 dragonmarked heals anyday as well. Ironically, I would have at least been receptive to a more creative argument such as also being bludgeon specced with the changes to transmuting and how that affects fighter dps with the probably future liches in the reaver's fate storyline. Instead of course the typical uncreative biased point of view that I have come to expect from yourself.

The 2 monk levels add less to dps then the two rogue levels which add d6+3 Sneak attack damage.

[Monkey_Archer]

Thanks very much for the replies. I got just what I wanted out of them. If my partner goes with a wizard/rogue I will be going 2 monk. If he does not I will go 2 rogue this time around and then build a 2 monk when I get 32 point builds. For stats with the 12ftr/6rngr/2rogue how does this look?

str 14
dex 16
con 14
int 14
wis 8
cha 8

Or I could put con at 10 and bump dex to 18 to start. Int is at 14 because I want to have the rogue skills at or near max and I want CE. Any suggestions or comments?

Also no access to tomes at this time.

As a 28 point build with no tomes..

Rogue hands down.

With those stats, i dont see room to get wisdom high enough for any benefit. You could swap 14 intel for 14 wisdom but then you wouldnt have CE. a 32 point build with 11-12 intel and 14 wisdom is probably the way to go for monk levels.

[Arcannon]

unknownperson - I want to be str based for damage output. When questing with my friend we will mainly be enjoying the new quests from a storyline and discovery standpoint, and if I decide to raid with this guy he will definately be teaming up on mobs with a tank type character. Now if you don't think I can swing a good enough ac to enjoy the quests on normal/hard, then I would welcome advice on a dex build.

I think I leaning toward rogue now due to the further input and that fact that this is going to be my fun guy, and quite frankly, I like being able to do damage and also be the utility character.

So if I go rogue the dragonmarks aren't really necessary because of heal scrolls? What about when I'm leveling up with my friend?

[Monkey_Archer]

unknownperson - I want to be str based for damage output. When questing with my friend we will mainly be enjoying the new quests from a storyline and discovery standpoint, and if I decide to raid with this guy he will definately be teaming up on mobs with a tank type character. Now if you don't think I can swing a good enough ac to enjoy the quests on normal/hard, then I would welcome advice on a dex build.

I think I leaning toward rogue now due to the further input and that fact that this is going to be my fun guy, and quite frankly, I like being able to do damage and also be the utility character.

So if I go rogue the dragonmarks aren't really necessary because of heal scrolls? What about when I'm leveling up with my friend?

Im sure you can probably fit in dragonmarks for low level quests, and swap them out later if you dont have room.

the stats you gave would work for both str and dex based builds.... 12 str, 18 dex might be better as dex based if you want a better ac.

[Aaxeyu]

Monk ac is not so much getting nerfed as is all ac will need to be focused on more then just having a monk level with decent dex and wisdom. You will need to have CE and/or a highish dex or wisdom along with of course alot of ac gear which will take away from the offensive gear you could be wearing. This is a mod 9 question more so then a mod 8 i.e. what will be the ac thresholds in mod 9/level 20 and how much ac gear will be needed to be worn to reach these thresholds.

I would take no fail umd heal scrolls over 4 or 5 dragonmarked heals anyday as well. Ironically, I would have at least been receptive to a more creative argument such as also being bludgeon specced with the changes to transmuting and how that affects fighter dps with the probably future liches in the reaver's fate storyline. Instead of course the typical uncreative biased point of view that I have come to expect from yourself.

The 2 monk levels add less to dps then the two rogue levels which add d6+3 Sneak attack damage.

Geez. The AC will be good enough, unless AC becomes completely useless for ever ytoon.
You seem to know the tohit of the mobs in mod 9. mind sharing?

Dragonmarked heals are instant, they don't require you to unequip your weapon. They can also be boosted with potency/devotion items and metamagics. They are also highr caster level.

Blunt spec is a baad idea'. Drop half your DPS just because you "think" that sometime in the future there might be a Lichtype boss?

You don't seem to have a clue of what you re talking about really, so perhaps stop posting your random drabble as if it were facts?

[Noctus]

You don't seem to have a clue of what you re talking about really, so perhaps stop posting your random drabble as if it were facts?


Someone is being cranky today.

I concure with the statements, but such talk is not just uncivil, but also unnecessary.

[Shroonith]

I too would not recommend blunt spec for anyone besides WF or human. Seeing as your halfling, piercing or slashing would be much better choices.

[maddmatt70]

Geez. The AC will be good enough, unless AC becomes completely useless for ever ytoon.
You seem to know the tohit of the mobs in mod 9. mind sharing?

You run a vod on Lammania? I know some people who did and the ac thresholds went up.



Dragonmarked heals are instant, they don't require you to unequip your weapon. They can also be boosted with potency/devotion items and metamagics. They are also highr caster level.

only 4 or so full dragonmarked heals.


Blunt spec is a baad idea'. Drop half your DPS just because you "think" that sometime in the future there might be a Lichtype boss?

Like i said sometime down the road there will likely be another lich in the Reaver storyline; specifically a dracolich. No reason to pick up blunt spec now, but there could be sometime down the road.



You don't seem to have a clue of what you re talking about really, so perhaps stop posting your random drabble as if it were facts?

You are the one who does not have a clue. You like your build great, but I prefer dps over ac especially on an offensive oriented character.

[Blazer]

You run a vod on Lammania? I know some people who did and the ac thresholds went up.

Off topic here, but any numbers to say how much those thresholds went up? I've got a couple of characters who are straddling the line of what's useful and if they're going to go from getting hit only 30% of the time to say 70% of the time, I'm going to start reorganizing some gear on them.

[Aaxeyu]

You run a vod on Lammania? I know some people who did and the ac thresholds went up.

lol, sure.
I know some people who did, and the ac threshold went down.


only 4 or so full dragonmarked heals.

5, and they can heal more than twice as much as a scroll.
You seem to care about DPS, then you should care about that dragonmarks are instant cast, and doesn't require you to unequip your weapon.

You also get some CSWs and CLWs


Like i said sometime down the road there will likely be another lich in the Reaver storyline; specifically a dracolich. No reason to pick up blunt spec now, but there could be sometime down the road.

Yes, but I don't see how that is relevant?


You are the one who does not have a clue. You like your build great, but I prefer dps over ac especially on an offensive oriented character.

This isn't about if you like a build or not, but what build is most effective ingame.
Taking rogue levels throws away your chance of having one of the most powerful builds in the game.
You can probably reach over 70 selfbuffed AC, while having great saves, evasion and probably higher DPS than a ranger. Along with very effective selfhealing that doesn't require you to swap out your weapon.

Wanna lose all that just because you want 6.5 SA damage that you only get once in a while?

[Delacroix21]

As a 28 point build with no tomes..

Rogue hands down.

With those stats, i dont see room to get wisdom high enough for any benefit. You could swap 14 intel for 14 wisdom but then you wouldnt have CE. a 32 point build with 11-12 intel and 14 wisdom is probably the way to go for monk levels.

I was going to suggest monk all the way until I saw this.


Realistically with 28pt builds and not tomes the monk splash wont me of much use. Monk splashed builds require too many stats and unless you can devote your time to them they will seem gimp. Gear/make them well and they will be gods!:D


Currently playing a 12rog/2mnk/2pal (will be 16/2/2), needs every stat item but int, and I would have never made it without my fullset of +2tomes and 32pt build. Even with that I was stretched thin!


EDIT
However! The monk option is still good and the dragonmarks should NOT be ignored if halfling. Especially since the Dragon Mark heir PrC has been announced. Who knows could be cool.

[Lifespawn]

also like to note that dragonmarks cannot be interrupted and you can cast them in beholders antimagic field and i could be wrong but fully specced in the dm i think you can get 6/8/10 if not then it's 5/7/9 and my halfling pally hits the dm for 280 with sup pot and devotion 2 quite abit more than a scroll that "can" fail.

[maddmatt70]

lol, sure.
I know some people who did, and the ac threshold went down.



5, and they can heal more than twice as much as a scroll.
You seem to care about DPS, then you should care about that dragonmarks are instant cast, and doesn't require you to unequip your weapon.

You also get some CSWs and CLWs


In the scenario you describe a healer is the best remedy. A high umd gives a character a better opportunity for success when a healer is not present, because there is no limit on heal scrolls. There is also the many other uses in DDO of umd - anything from fireshield to teleport to cloudkill scrolls to even just equipping items which require umd.






Yes, but I don't see how that is relevant?


Its relevant for a reason that the two extra feats you get for monk could be made useful. As is on your build you have feats like lightning reflexes, quickdraw, and the slightly more useful stunning blow.



This isn't about if you like a build or not, but what build is most effective ingame.
Taking rogue levels throws away your chance of having one of the most powerful builds in the game.

You can probably reach over 70 selfbuffed AC, while having great saves, evasion and probably higher DPS than a ranger. Along with very effective selfhealing that doesn't require you to swap out your weapon.

Wanna lose all that just because you want 6.5 SA damage that you only get once in a while?

As a matter of fact 6.5 SA is worth it and it is synergous with the halfling guile damage. I considered the 2 barbarian levels as well instead of rogue or monk, but wanted evasion. This game is about dps not about ac. Halflings get great saves. My halfling 8 fighter 6 ranger 2 rogue has a 20 will save and his fort and reflex are close to 30. I would rather have more dps then have an ac which is by no means future proof.

I have a twf dex based 9 rogue 6 ranger 1 monk who can hit the mid 80s ac without short buffs (uncanny dodge for example) and I have friends who have character builds with high 80s low 90s ac. That is great when ac is needed we can bring a high ac character along. A character with an above average ac that will need to wear gear to up that ac instead of gear to up dps is not future proofing since ac thresholds will be going up and not maximizing dps.

[Aaxeyu]

In the scenario you describe a healer is the best remedy. A high umd gives a character a better opportunity for success when a healer is not present, because there is no limit on heal scrolls. There is also the many other uses in DDO of umd - anything from fireshield to teleport to cloudkill scrolls to even just equipping items which require umd.

Not really, you are clearly underestimating dragonmarks and high AC.
If you screw AC you will have to use those scroll all the time if you don't have a healer to back you up.

Going monk and dragonmarks means that you sometimes will have to heal yourself with a maximized empowered, superior potency dragonmark. The CSWs heal 128 and the heals 250.

You can get that other stuff from clickies anyways.


Its relevant for a reason that the two extra feats you get for monk could be made useful. As is on your build you have feats like lightning reflexes, quickdraw, and the slightly more useful stunning blow.

Ehum, I'm sorry, what?
You don't have a clue of what you're talking about.


Feats: (In no particular order)
Dodge
Mobility
Spring Attack
Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Maximize (for csw)
Empower healing
Lesser Dragon Mark
Improved Dragonmark
Greater Dragonmark
Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Khopesh
Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons
Greater Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
Greater Weapon Specialisation: Slashing
Power Attack
Combat Expertise



As a matter of fact 6.5 SA is worth it and it is synergous with the halfling guile damage. I considered the 2 barbarian levels as well instead of rogue or monk, but wanted evasion. This game is about dps not about ac. Halflings get great saves. My halfling 8 fighter 6 ranger 2 rogue has a 20 will save and his fort and reflex are close to 30. I would rather have more dps then have an ac which is by no means future proof.

I know that the game is about DPS, never heard of The Monster?
This build, however, can lose 6,5 SA to become almost immortal. You are just to blind to see it.

Monk AC is future proof. It's working as intended.


I have a twf dex based 9 rogue 6 ranger 1 monk who can hit the mid 80s ac without short buffs (uncanny dodge for example) and I have friends who have character builds with high 80s low 90s ac. That is great when ac is needed we can bring a high ac character along. A character with an above average ac that will need to wear gear to up that ac instead of gear to up dps is not future proofing since ac thresholds will be going up and not maximizing dps.

Are you talking about guards?

[maddmatt70]

Not really, you are clearly underestimating dragonmarks and high AC.
If you screw AC you will have to use those scroll all the time if you don't have a healer to back you up.

Going monk and dragonmarks means that you sometimes will have to heal yourself with a maximized empowered, superior potency dragonmark. The CSWs heal 128 and the heals 250.

You can get that other stuff from clickies anyways.


You are clearly overestimating those things. End game primarily resolves around raids and the SOS quests. You have a healer for those quests. An offensive character kills the mobs so quick that the character does not take much damage. I can use all sorts of scrolls including restoration, dim door, etc. etc...



Ehum, I'm sorry, what?
You don't have a clue of what you're talking about.


Feats: (In no particular order)
Dodge
Mobility
Spring Attack
Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Maximize (for csw)
Empower healing
Lesser Dragon Mark
Improved Dragonmark
Greater Dragonmark
Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Khopesh
Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons
Greater Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
Greater Weapon Specialisation: Slashing
Power Attack
Combat Expertise

So you have ce on instead of power attack on an offensive character. You are taking 4 feats which do not upgrade offense just for a handful of marks when you should be spending your time doing dps when a healer is present. When a healer is not present dps and scrolls are more then adequate. You should try it sometime because you are the one who sounds ignorant.




I know that the game is about DPS, never heard of The Monster?
This build, however, can lose 6,5 SA to become almost immortal. You are just to blind to see it.

Less dps is less dps. With 6.5 less SA, CE on instead of power attack, and ac items instead of dps items you are doing quite a bit less dps then me. On raids there is not a need for another moderate ac and moderate dps character.



Monk AC is future proof. It's working as intended.

I agree monk ac is future proof, but I disagree that this build has enough ac to be future proof as the ac thresholds go up.



Are you talking about guards?

I am talking about guards now and more items like the tharnes goggles or madstone boots or bloodstones that come down the road that you have to fit into character slots.

[Thanimal]

A few people seem concerned that you can't get enough Wisdom here to "support" Monk levels, but I can't see why that would be true. How 'bout:

STR 14 [10 points]
DEX 16 [6 points] (+1 Tome someday to qualify for iTWF/gTWF)
INT 12 [4 points] (+1 Tome someday to qualify for CE -- any INT beyond qualifying for CE is a bad investment in my opinion)
CON 12 [4 points] (with Toughness, enhancements, decent base HP, and most critically great defenses -- huge CON is not at all necessary here)
WIS 12 [4 points] (this then maps to 20 (+1 Tome + 1 Monk enh + 6 item) for a total of +6 (including Monk 2 bonus) -- BETTER than Combat Expertise [and stacking with it], with NO drawback)
CHA 8 [0 points]

I think to say 6 more points of permanent AC is "not enough to be worthwhile" would be plain silly. The 2 extra feats are really just gravy in my mind. (Tasty gravy, btw.)

Still agreeing with Aax that it's not close, but remaining open minded that I am missing something.

[Aaxeyu]

You are clearly overestimating those things. End game primarily resolves around raids and the SOS quests. You have a healer for those quests. An offensive character kills the mobs so quick that the character does not take much damage. I can use all sorts of scrolls including restoration, dim door, etc. etc...
So you are basicly saying that everyone should play WF 12 fighter / 6 ranger / 2 barb, except for a few who should play WF sorcs.

The build I'm suggesting is a versatile build that can hold it's own in low man and solo. Not one that is dependant on a healer.


So you have ce on instead of power attack on an offensive character. You are taking 4 feats which do not upgrade offense just for a handful of marks when you should be spending your time doing dps when a healer is present. When a healer is not present dps and scrolls are more then adequate. You should try it sometime because you are the one who sounds ignorant.

I have both CE and PA, it's called versatility.

What you completely fail to realise that this build is made for versatility and high survivability.
Dragonmarks + AC >>>>> scrolls + no AC.
Not only does CSW alone heal more than a healscroll, it's instant cast so you won't be interupted, you can also use it next to beholders, and you won't gimp your DPS by unequiping your weapon and spend time healing.


Less dps is less dps. With 6.5 less SA, CE on instead of power attack, and ac items instead of dps items you are doing quite a bit less dps then me. On raids there is not a need for another moderate ac and moderate dps character.

I know more about DPS than you can possible imagine, so no need to lecture me there.

The build in question can reach 67 self buffed AC without icy raiment (in CE), and while doing so it will deal more DPS than a "Exploiter" in PA.



I agree monk ac is future proof, but I disagree that this build has enough ac to be future proof as the ac thresholds go up.

You are fooling yourself, the AC threshold will not go up so that a possible of 70+ selfbuffed AC isn't enough.


I am talking about guards now and more items like the tharnes goggles or madstone boots or bloodstones that come down the road that you have to fit into character slots.

Fiting tharnes and bloodstone is not a problem. Not madstone either, when you need it.
No one said anything about not having tharnes, etc. Not exactly like there is anything better to use; even on an ac build.

Suggested gear setup:

Main hand - Mineral Khopesh, +4 insight,
Off hand - Mineral Khopesh, +2 Wisdom
Armor - Dragontouched: +5 Resistance, +1 exceptional Wisdom, Destruction
Bracers - Chaosgarde
Ring - chatter ring
Boots - madstone
Gloves - Greensteel, +6 wis, +7 will save +1 fort save, concordant opposition
Ring - Tumble weed
Belt - Titan belt, gfl, +6 str
Cloak - +5 ref save, +1 will save, +2 ref save. Radiance guard.
Trinket - bloodstone
Necklace - +6 con
Helmet - +5 fort save, 35 hp (20,15) +5 prot, heavy fort, stoneskin clicky
Goggles - Tharnes goggles, +5 SA, true seeing, +15 search, +15 spot.

[maddmatt70]

Fiting tharnes and bloodstone is not a problem. Not madstone either, when you need it.
No one said anything about not having tharnes, etc. Not exactly like there is anything better to use; even on an ac build.

Suggested gear setup:

Main hand - Mineral Khopesh, +4 insight,
Off hand - Mineral Khopesh, +2 Wisdom
Armor - Dragontouched: +5 Resistance, +1 exceptional Wisdom, Destruction
Bracers - Chaosgarde
Ring - chatter ring
Boots - madstone
Gloves - Greensteel, +6 wis, +7 will save +1 fort save, concordant opposition
Ring - Tumble weed
Belt - Titan belt, gfl, +6 str
Cloak - +5 ref save, +1 will save, +2 ref save. Radiance guard.
Trinket - bloodstone
Necklace - +6 con
Helmet - +5 fort save, 35 hp (20,15) +5 prot, heavy fort, stoneskin clicky
Goggles - Tharnes goggles, +5 SA, true seeing, +15 search, +15 spot.

So Easy.

Main hand: Mineral 2 Khopesh with acid blast on end or Lightning strike with shocking blast.
Off hand: Mineral 2 Khopesh with acid blast on end or Lightning strike with shocking blast.
Armor: Dragontouched: +5 resist, Salt Guard, disintegrate or radiance guard.
Bracers: Tharnes Bracer
Ring: +6 con
Ring: Tumbleweed or +6 cha for when soloing or umding
Boots: Madstone or Air/Air/Air +6 cha skills for when soloing or umding.
Belt: Titan Belt
Goggles: Tharnes
Trinket: Bloodstone
Helmet: Minos Helm (this will likely change in mod 9)
Gloves: Neg/Pos/Pos Concordant opposition (disease and blindness immunity/+ 1 exceptional will save/Good Guard +6 wis) or Titan Gloves for when soloing or umding
Cloak: (Lightning storm Guard with +45 hp)
Necklace: Lightning storm guard (WIZ VI/lesser good guard/lightning guard) (note: could also make a radiance guard for this slot) or +6 wis or silver flame necklace

This item configuration does alot more dps then your item configuration and can do this because AC is dumped. It has aggro reduction for sneak attack damage and Guards so the best of both worlds. When next mod comes it can easily fit in the Kensai item set or whatever else comes along because it can just remove some of the guards and tumbleweed; whereas, you will have a much more difficult time fitting in new gear. It could sacrifice dps a little if it wants and make a Smoke Screen item for the 20% blur effect.

[maddmatt70]

So you are basicly saying that everyone should play WF 12 fighter / 6 ranger / 2 barb, except for a few who should play WF sorcs.

The build I'm suggesting is a versatile build that can hold it's own in low man and solo. Not one that is dependant on a healer.

So if dps is not your goal then stop touting the 12 fighter 6 ranger 2 monk build as a dps build. The 12 fighter 6 ranger 2 rogue build does similiar dps to the 12 fighter 6 ranger 2 barb where it gets sneak damage.

[Aaxeyu]

So if dps is not your goal then stop touting the 12 fighter 6 ranger 2 monk build as a dps build. The 12 fighter 6 ranger 2 rogue build does similiar dps to the 12 fighter 6 ranger 2 barb where it gets sneak damage.

Jeez. You just don't get it do you?

The build we are discussing here is NOT The Monster. It's a completely different build. It's build to have very high survivability and versatility, while still beeing able to deal high dps (Not as high as The Monster though).

The goal of the halfing 12/6/2 have NEVER been to have highest DPS and screw everything else. It's much better than that.
I dare to say that it's one of the (if not THE) best builds for mod 9 due to the high AC and self healing combined with high saves, evasion and high DPS.

You need to realise that DPS is not the only thing in this game. While DPS is important and I consider low DPS toons gimped, I don't close my eyes for the fact that high survivability can and will make a difference, escpeially if you lowman. Even more so if you solo (Obviously).

The game is not just black and white. I made some small DPS sacrifices for great survivavility gains.
In PA the halfling out-dpses TWF barb, so the DPS is still very high.

Using your logics barbs are not DPS characters, neither is pure fighters, or any other class/multiclass other than WF 12 fighter / 6 ranger /2 barb as it has the highest achiveable DPS.

Just becasue the halfling 12fighter/6ranger/2monk have other things than DPS available doesn't mean that it's not a DPS toon, because it deals very high DPS.

Regarding the gear;
On the items I posted you can swap away +2 wisdom on one weapon for -1 ac, and then the only difference in "dps" on our gears will be your off hand, which gives what? 5 out of 430 dps, pff; yea your gear is significantly more dps speced because of that. :rolleyes:
I'm not saying that the gear setup I posted is the one and only. Just proving you wrong where you assumed it will be impossible to fit Tharnes and bloodstone.

[Yajerman01]

Not really, you are clearly underestimating dragonmarks and high AC.
If you screw AC you will have to use those scroll all the time if you don't have a healer to back you up.

Going monk and dragonmarks means that you sometimes will have to heal yourself with a maximized empowered, superior potency dragonmark. The CSWs heal 128 and the heals 250.

You can get that other stuff from clickies anyways.



Ehum, I'm sorry, what?
You don't have a clue of what you're talking about.


Feats: (In no particular order)
Dodge
Mobility
Spring Attack
Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Maximize (for csw)
Empower healing
Lesser Dragon Mark
Improved Dragonmark
Greater Dragonmark
Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Khopesh
Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons
Greater Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
Greater Weapon Specialisation: Slashing
Power Attack
Combat Expertise




I know that the game is about DPS, never heard of The Monster?
This build, however, can lose 6,5 SA to become almost immortal. You are just to blind to see it.

Monk AC is future proof. It's working as intended.



Are you talking about guards?


I am in line with you.

I have a Halfling 11 fighter/3 paladin/2 monk Strength built duel weilding khopesh with all the dragon marks.

442 hp
saves respectivly self bffed at 36/35/32

AC duel wielding 60/62

Dragon marks and my two LOH's combine for a total of 1750 in heals.

30 strength, so I am trying to figure out what I am missing other then the "to-damage" feats.

[Yajerman01]

I am in line with you.

I have a Halfling 11 fighter/3 paladin/2 monk Strength built duel weilding khopesh with all the dragon marks.

442 hp
saves respectivly self bffed at 36/35/32

AC duel wielding 60/62

Dragon marks and my two LOH's combine for a total of 1750 in heals.

30 strength, so I am trying to figure out what I am missing other then the "to-damage" feats.

I have an open slot (gloves) and if I get the tharnes bracers ill dump two AC to open up another slot (ring) for another guard of sorts.

[maddmatt70]

Jeez. You just don't get it do you?

The build we are discussing here is NOT The Monster. It's a completely different build. It's build to have very high survivability and versatility, while still beeing able to deal high dps (Not as high as The Monster though).

The goal of the halfing 12/6/2 have NEVER been to have highest DPS and screw everything else. It's much better than that.
I dare to say that it's one of the (if not THE) best builds for mod 9 due to the high AC and self healing combined with high saves, evasion and high DPS.

You need to realise that DPS is not the only thing in this game. While DPS is important and I consider low DPS toons gimped, I don't close my eyes for the fact that high survivability can make a difference, escpeially if you lowman. Even more so if you solo (Obviously).

The game is not just black and white. I made some small DPS sacrifices for great survivavility gains.
In PA the halfling out-dpses TWF barb, so the DPS is still very high.

Using your logics barbs are not DPS characters, neither is pure fighters, or any other class/multiclass other than WF 12 fighter / 6 ranger /2 barb as it has the highest achiveable DPS.

Just becasue the halfling 12fighter/6ranger/2monk have other things than DPS availible doesn't mean that it's not a DPS toon, because it deals very high DPS.

Regarding the gear;
On the items I posted you can swap away +2 wisdom on one weapon for -1 ac, and then the only difference in "dps" on our gears will be your off hand, which gives what? 5 out of 430 dps, pff; yea your gear is significantly more dps speced because of that. :rolleyes:
I'm not saying that the gear setup I posted is the one and only. Just proving you wrong where you assumed it will be impossible to fit Tharnes and bloodstone.

I make high dps characters or medium dps characters with high surviveability you make medium dps characters with medium surviveablity.

You have a strange disdain regarding sneak damage. A party of halfling will crush a party of wf any day unless they are fighting undead, constructs, or elementals.

My guild and friends make whatever characters they want. They do tend to make dps characters (I do not think anybody has made a sword and board character in 6 months). I also take whatever wants to join the lfms I put up for the shroud, other raid or quest. I do not care if 4 monks want to join whatever. This however is an optimal discussion. I am pointing out your character is far from optimal in current ddo conditions.

Edit: DPS is the whole ball game.

[Aaxeyu]

I make high dps characters or medium dps characters with high surviveability you make medium dps characters with medium surviveablity.

You have a strange disdain regarding sneak damage. A party of halfling will crush a party of wf any day unless they are fighting undead, constructs, or elementals.

My guild and friends make whatever characters they want. They do tend to make dps characters (I do not think anybody has made a sword and board character in 6 months). I also take whatever wants to join the lfms I put up for the shroud, other raid or quest. I do not care if 4 monks want to join whatever. This however is an optimal discussion. I am pointing out your character is far from optimal in current ddo conditions.

Edit: DPS is the whole ball game.

Just a questions, did you even read what I said, or are you just confirming what I said?

If so, you're saying:
twf barbs aren't dps
full str twf rangers aren't dps
full fighters aren't dps

So what is dps? Oh that's right, 12/6/2-barb's, and only those.
Do I have to post a calculation to show you the dps difference between going rogue and monk on this build, and then compare it to other build, eg twf barbs.
You think you know the theory, but if you'd do the maths and actually play a character like this; you'd know what I know.

You must realize that obtaining:
90% dps
75% survivability

beats:
98% dps
10% survivability

PS: Weren't you vindicating SoS (aka undead) as one of the 3 battles, and only battles? If so, then I find that statement about halflings quite amusing. Oh, and Arraetrikos has fort and so does Suulomates.

[maddmatt70]

Just a questions, did you even read what I said, or are you just confirming what I said?

If so, you're saying:
twf barbs aren't dps
full str twf rangers aren't dps
full fighters aren't dps

So what is dps? Oh that's right, 12/6/2-barb's, and only those.
Do I have to post a calculation to show you the dps difference between going rogue and monk on this build, and then compare it to other build, eg twf barbs.
You think you know the theory, but if you'd do the maths, and actually play a character like this; you'd know.

I really have alot of problems with the way you do your dps calcs.

First of all your biggest and poorest assumption is every quest is either 5 minutes long or less or there are shrines every 5 minutes in the quest. When a quest or shrines are not every 5 minutes you need to average the time when you do not have fighter haste or in mod 9 power surge with the times you do not.

The VOD raid does take longer then 5 mintues and is really closer to 10-15 minutes of actual quest time. You need to improve your calculations to account for ths time for when you do not have fighter haste boost or power surge. When the group I run with does the shroud we do not shrine at the end of part 1 but only some people shrine at part 2 and everybody at part 4 because we do speeds all the time so you would not get all your short term buffs back. What this all means is when the quest takes longer then 5 minutes the numbers become more pro-barbarian, pro-ranger, pro-paladin, pro-rogue because they are not as dependent on short term buffs.

A second problem with your numbers is if something has dr/bludgeon in mod9 with the changes to transmuting that means less dps for slash specced characters specifically your khopesh specced characters. Again this is another change which really affects fighters dps more then the other classes. Your numbers should once again reflect this.

I do not feel fighters or fighter multi-class characters will have the highest dps all the time in mod 9 or in the future.



You must realize that obtaining:
90% dps
75% survivability

beats:
98% dps
10% survivability


Totally nonmathematical numbers. Hit points, saves, dps, and heal scrolls/self healing really make someone nearly invulnerable.



PS: Weren't you vindicating SoS (aka undead) as one of the 3 battles, and only battles? If so, then I find that statement about halflings quite amusing. Oh, and Arraetrikos has fort and so does Suulomates.

Both Harry and Suulo have 50% fort which means the halfling gets on average 3.25 SA a round which is roughly equivalent to your wf power attack +2 str. On Sorjek its advantage wf. On everything else at end game really its advantage halfling.

[tc12]

Main hand: Mineral 2 Khopesh with acid blast on end or Lightning strike with shocking blast.
Off hand: Mineral 2 Khopesh with acid blast on end or Lightning strike with shocking blast.
Armor: Dragontouched: +5 resist, Salt Guard, disintegrate or radiance guard.
Bracers: Tharnes Bracer
Ring: +6 con
Ring: Tumbleweed or +6 cha for when soloing or umding
Boots: Madstone or Air/Air/Air +6 cha skills for when soloing or umding.
Belt: Titan Belt
Goggles: Tharnes
Trinket: Bloodstone
Helmet: Minos Helm (this will likely change in mod 9)
Gloves: Neg/Pos/Pos Concordant opposition (disease and blindness immunity/+ 1 exceptional will save/Good Guard +6 wis) or Titan Gloves for when soloing or umding
Cloak: (Lightning storm Guard with +45 hp)
Necklace: Lightning storm guard (WIZ VI/lesser good guard/lightning guard) (note: could also make a radiance guard for this slot) or +6 wis or silver flame necklace


Honestly, did you get from the OP that he was the type of the player that would quickly and easily get this type of gear setup?

Really implying a rogue splash for UMD meant there'd never be an issue healing as he'd have "no fail" scrolling is misleading if the build is not for the kind of player who can easily craft +6 CHA skill items just for that purpose. Just that and 2 min IIs is 60 larges, not to mention you listed a cloak or something too. I guess with all that there's not much raid loot dependancy though. LOL

Your arguments are all tuned to those with the most uber-equip'd powergamer equipment lists possible. The potential question is for a lightly-equip'd casual-player build, what does better for the OP? For that I think I gotta go with the monk/dragonmarks as I'm just not seeing how a casaul gamer duo-ing with a friend is gonna have the UMD needed to scroll them both anyway.

TC

[Aaxeyu]

I really have alot of problems with the way you do your dps calcs.

First of all your biggest and poorest assumption is every quest is either 5 minutes long or less or there are shrines every 5 minutes in the quest. When a quest or shrines are not every 5 minutes you need to average the time when you do not have fighter haste or in mod 9 power surge with the times you do not.

The VOD raid does take longer then 5 mintues and is really closer to 10-15 minutes of actual quest time. You need to improve your calculations to account for ths time for when you do not have fighter haste boost or power surge. When the group I run with does the shroud we do not shrine at the end of part 1 but only some people shrine at part 2 and everybody at part 4 because we do speeds all the time so you would not get all your short term buffs back. What this all means is when the quest takes longer then 5 minutes the numbers become more pro-barbarian, pro-ranger, pro-paladin, pro-rogue because they are not as dependent on short term buffs.

A second problem with your numbers is if something has dr/bludgeon in mod9 with the changes to transmuting that means less dps for slash specced characters specifically your khopesh specced characters. Again this is another change which really affects fighters dps more then the other classes. Your numbers should once again reflect this.

I do not feel fighters or fighter multi-class characters will have the highest dps all the time in mod 9 or in the future.

You missed my point, what I said was that there is only one max DPS build, and according to you that's the only DPS build. What that build is doesn't really matters, it's besides the point.


The calcs are fine if you take into account for the fact that the vast majority of fights between shrines takes much less time than 5 minutes. They are perhaps abit biased towards barbs or rangers even...

What I'm trying to tell you is that you don't have to go all out on DPS and dump everything else in order to deal high DPS. You won't be a max DPS build, but you can still deal very high DPS.
And that going all out DPS is not the only way. It's blind ignorance from your side to neglect the superiority in most situations of the proposed build. Why do you even bother bringing up healscrolls as a plus for rogue when it's build only for situations were you have a nanny.

Oh, and how long do you really think VoD would take if you only took the "good" dps builds? How many minutes would resolve around actually hitting Suulomates?
How many hitpoints do you think Suulomates have, 1 million?
10*monster=
10*~450=3500dps
3500*60=210,000DPM
210,000*5=105,000,0 DP5M

And that's a low assumption, since 9 monsters would get SA, etc. Trust me, whacking suulo wouldn't take longer than 5 minutes.

Oh, and don't you think its fair to calculate like this, I mean with 5 minutes you have calculated for every quest in the game in favor for the barbarian / ranger / etc, including 2 of the 3 battles.
In the last of the three battles depending on if you pug or not the calculations have a slight favor for the boosting characters. Yea, I can see how that totally favors boosting characters. :rolleyes:

PS: Rogues use haste boosts as well, well not everyone; but those who doesn't aren't high up on the dps list.

EDIT:
Regarding shroud:
Use 4 boosts on portals (2 left, and you'll have more than enough PS's, they will last 8 mins after all)
Use 1 boost for trash in part 2
Use 1 boost for bosses in part 2. (unless the bosses are dead before 30 seconds in a speed run, you're doing it wrong)
Go part 3, sprint boost 5 times to run crystals
rest up before part 4
use 2-3 haste boosts on arraetrikos (if he's not dead before 1,30 minute, you're doing it wrong)
use one boost for liutenants. (Same as part 2)
Use 2-3 boosts for arraetrikos. (same as part 4)

So, 1 rests, where everyone else rests, and you're gonna be boosted 66%(sometimes 100%) of the time where it matters. Calcing 5 minutes is favoring barbs, rangers etc in shroud.


Totally nonmathematical numbers. Hit points, saves, dps, and heal scrolls/self healing really make someone nearly invulnerable.

No, you won't be close to invulnerable without AC.
But with a possible of 70+ selfbuffed AC, decent HP, high saves, evasion, high DPS, great, instant, selfhealing you can come pretty close to being invulnerable.

You can't solo rush if you're gonna heal scroll between each battle, but the build I suggestion can, in every quest in the game.


Both Harry and Suulo have 50% fort which means the halfling gets on average 3.25 SA a round which is roughly equivalent to your wf power attack +2 str. On Sorjek its advantage wf. On everything else at end game really its advantage halfling.


End game primarily resolves around raids and the SOS quests.

So where DPS matters, WF is better. Why would you pick halfling for DPS purposes, unless you're low on tohit (which is not the case)?
You are contradicting yourself.