Shroud Shrine

[cm2_supernova]

To whom it may concern,

Is there any chance we can get a shrine put in the entrence to the shroud...you know, in the area before the portal to part 1. Ya see, if there was a shrine there I could watch casters needlessly rest to regain their spell points for part 1 which is a real time saver compared to watching them needlessly recall out.

Thanks! :D

[AmoebaCowboy]

Yeah, and then we can watch those same casters solo farm the shroud for more fun. DDoor=win.

[Gorby]

The portal from the entrance area into the quest dissapears after a minute or so,

[cm2_supernova]

Yeah, and then we can watch those same casters solo farm the shroud for more fun. DDoor=win.

Yeah...cant happen because the portal closes after 5 minutes

[Quikster]

To whom it may concern,

Is there any chance we can get a shrine put in the entrence to the shroud...you know, in the area before the portal to part 1. Ya see, if there was a shrine there I could watch casters needlessly rest to regain their spell points for part 1 which is a real time saver compared to watching them needlessly recall out.

Thanks! :D

LOL i tell em im leaving, open the portal and go. If they complain I say stop throwing all those buffs and save your sp. Truth is they cant win, in one group, the leader asks for every biff under the sun, in another the leader says haste and go :D

[cm2_supernova]

LOL i tell em im leaving, open the portal and go. If they complain I say stop throwing all those buffs and save your sp. Truth is they cant win, in one group, the leader asks for every biff under the sun, in another the leader says haste and go :D

Thats why only smart people should run raids...if only there was a way to impliment that.

("Your intelligence is too low to post this LFM")

[darkrune]

In all honesty what buffs do you really need other than songs, true seeing, haste, rage and maybe mass prot if those are necessary? anything further is kind of moot as if you cant hit the portals (which are stationary and you should only be missing on 1's) or cant vorpal/FOD/PK the trash mobs you better be swinging on the portals.

Actually let me reiterate the last point another way, unless you are the one person that is deemed the roamer what are you doing and why are you not blasting the portal with some sort of weapon (perfect or not just hit the darn thing) because even 10 pts more damage a round is better than just standing around doing nothing... Yes clerics this includes you, get a stick or sharp pointy thing and whack away with the rest of the crowd cause the faster the portals go down the more blue bar you will have at the end... heck go crazy and every once in a while toss a recitation and prayer just for the damage bonuses and you will see that the runs go perfectly smooth with MINIMAL buffs.

In conclusion IMHO: Haste and Rage are a must; Songs True-seeing and/or dispel great help; recitation and prayer big help, anything else yeah good for you for wasting mana because in my groups we will be done in 10 minutes...

Dark

[cm2_supernova]

In conclusion IMHO: Haste and Rage are a must; Songs True-seeing and/or dispel great help; recitation and prayer big help, anything else yeah good for you for wasting mana because in my groups we will be done in 10 minutes...

Dark

IMHO, songs and T\S are far more important than rage. Rage is a nice-to-have, but the extra +1 to damage isnt a deal breaker at all...same thing with prayer, the extra +1 is nice, but its not the end of the world.

On the other hand, the +8 to damage you get from a warchanter is a pretty big deal and for the 5-ish portals that get displaced on an average run the TS is **** near manditory too. GH is pretty useful too because there is a lot of fear getting thrown around.

However, resists are silly because a mass pro is usually more than enough to last, and if not...just cast it again.

oh, and for any prospective clerics can I give a few tips real fast??

1) The recitation spell give you exactly +0 to damage...prayer give you a +1, but all recitation gives you is the +2 to AC\skills\saves

2) The following buffs are stupid in pt 1: Deathward, SR, Bless\aid (always dumb, not just in the shroud), Shield of Faith (more dumb then Aid)

When push comes to shove this is really what you need:

GH
TS
Songs
Mass Pro
Haste

Same thing in part 4 & 5 except add a fire\poison resist to the list and drop TS.

[Riorik]

There's a better spell than neutralize poison.

Heroes Feast if everyone uses the shrine after getting it.

[Shade]

The fact of the matter is, in any competant group that has a chance at beating the raid, exiting for mana at the start to give more buffs is an utter waste of time.

Hardly no buffs are needed, especially not to the extend that one would have to recall for spell points.

Only things important are:
Haste
Rage
Prayer
Semi Important
Greater Heros, of which scrolls and girds are fine for zero mana use
TS - Clerics can do this on every who requests it, and still have tons of mana left over for healing
Mass protect - generally more effecient then healing as the main dmg ull get is the fireballs from the trogs/keepers
Totally unnessasary:
Recitation - The portals have no AC, we don't need an extra +1 to hit. The only people that should actually be attacking the trash also hits the trash on a 2 unbuffed or really should not attack it. We also do not need any AC because you are mass healing at the portals, so you may not get hit, but someone else will and youll get healed anyways.
Blur - Reduces damage so little will never have any real effect on the outcome of phase1. Best left for harbour quests. Use displacement on a specifcied main tank for the orthons and your set.

[cm2_supernova]

There's a better spell than neutralize poison.

Heroes Feast if everyone uses the shrine after getting it.

yeah...but that involves co-ordinating people to a "dont shrine till this happens" event which is usually too much for at least one person in your average PUG, so I usually just say screw it and hit everyone with poison after the fact

[Shade]

yeah...but that involves co-ordinating people to a "dont shrine till this happens" event which is usually too much for at least one person in your average PUG, so I usually just say screw it and hit everyone with poison after the fact

Very true.

The real actual coordinated non-noob melee players already have a poof vs poison and disease immunity item on anyways. I consider the poison symbol above my head as a sign of noobness.. And while it has been there on 1 char after returning to the game with no gear I did fix it within 2 runs.

Also theres a bug with heros feast.. It seems if you get it, then get greater hero.. The GH will replace the feast icon, making you think you don't have it anymore tho you do.. While GH does replace almost everything feast does, it does not grant poison immunity so that shouldn't happen.
Tho the 2nd icon for temp HP will remain until those are exhausted.

[cm2_supernova]

exiting for mana at the start to give more buffs is an utter waste of time.

right...but try stopping PUG casters from steppin out. Ya see if there was a shrine we could get all the merfolk's blessings, protection from evil, and mass cat's grace's in the world and the casters could just rest up while the main group presses on.

[cm2_supernova]

Very true.

The real actual coordinated non-noob melee players already have a poof vs poison and disease immunity item on anyways. I consider the poison symbol above my head as a sign of noobness.. .

or for the love of God...pots are 7:00 each!!

[Shade]

or for the love of God...pots are 7:00 each!!

Fair enough for most classes. But Barbarians cannot drink potions most of the time, and by the time I notice i'm already raged.

[cm2_supernova]

Fair enough for most classes. But Barbarians cannot drink potions most of the time, and by the time I notice i'm already raged.


My personal favorite for my ranger is the Bloodrage Symbiont...poison, disease and dr 5\-

Granted it doesnt stack with Iornskin...but it is a pretty good trinket most of the time.

[Riorik]

Very true.

The real actual coordinated non-noob melee players already have a poof vs poison and disease immunity item on anyways. I consider the poison symbol above my head as a sign of noobness.. And while it has been there on 1 char after returning to the game with no gear I did fix it within 2 runs.


Well, I'd partially agree with that. Sometimes you just want other equipment more and you're willing to deal with it. How hard is it to carry your own neutralize poison wand anyways? I do have a character that's disease vulnerable but it's mostly a bank char and almost never goes into the shroud unless I'm timered out. Yeah, I will probably fix that though if I start to run it more.

On Heroes - yeah, but who says you have to get everyone? Just nail a bunch of them and only add neutralize poison to the ones that actually ask for it.

[cdemeritt]

For the love of pete, if there is a buff you can't live without, carry a pot/wand/scroll/clickie. All my toons do their best to carry what they need in case I don't get the buffs I want. I personally hate the Buff Beggers. I have No problem giving the buffs I carry, but my sorc isn't going to trade out a spell just so I can give you jump. I'll ask for certain things once, then use a pot if I don't get it. (I.E. Fire Protect) Not a big deal. Whining about not getting a buff you think you must have, or even dropping group because the ranger doesn't give the low AC builds Barkskin (as if a +4 AC is going to help my Sorc anyways) is bad form at best.

As for the OP about the Shrine in the entry way to the shroud... I'm for it, as at least you know that the portal has been opened and you have X minutes to get though. and since it closes anyways, I don't see any good reason not to have one there, much like the one in Vod. (I also don't see very good reasons for it either, but at least some reasons)

[Targonis]

As someone who has been through the Shroud more times than I care to think about, the need to leave to refill spell points and come back in is entirely optional. Clerics in general do NOT run out of spell points in part 1(unless you are in a one cleric group). For arcanes, the need for spell points to take down the trogs is greater than the need for buffs anyway, with only haste being considered really important to the group in part 1. This means that you do NOT need to even worry about it.

If you are in a raid with relative newbies(who do not have at least one tier 3 item completed), then there might be a need to hop out to refill your spell points, but you can just run up to the bar and down an Enchanted Ghallanda distilate and you will be good to go within 4 minutes.

Part 1 really is VERY easy, but you have to understand the capabilities of the people in the raid when you form the group. High-power groups may only bring one arcane, but having a second makes it a lot easier in part 1. For clerics, if you are in a REALLY powerful group, it is possible to get through the raid with just one cleric, but for most, 2-3 clerics is a good idea. If you do not have confidence in the damage output of your melees and rangers, go with three clerics to be safe.

If you find you are in a group where people are new, and you only have one arcane and two clerics, you MAY want to make sure you have either a number of potions for spell points, or scrolls/wands to help you get through, and make sure you will be compensated if it is a PUG, since it isn't fair that you should have to pay for the lack of firepower in the raid.

Asking to make things easier when you really can just recall out at the entrance is a bit silly since it really isn't all that difficult in part 1. I have gone through as an arcane, cleric, and melee, and can honestly say that there really isn't a need to make it any easier. If leaving to get spell points doesn't work for you because you are not capped, then tell the group that you don't want to leave, and that people will need to drink potions to help out in part 1.

[Strakeln]

To whom it may concern,

Is there any chance we can get a shrine put in the entrence to the shroud...you know, in the area before the portal to part 1. Ya see, if there was a shrine there I could watch casters needlessly rest to regain their spell points for part 1 which is a real time saver compared to watching them needlessly recall out.

Thanks! :DOkay, I'm going to call your bluff. You either don't have a caster or you're full of ****.

My sorc has 2495 SP. When I come into the Shroud, I drop GH, jump, blur, Fire Resist, and haste. Then I hop back out and tell the group to go ahead with out me. I'm often back before that one straggler has arrived.

So then I start the Shroud with full mana. I have high SP and a high DC for my fingers and even my PKs, so I don't miss many. Yet I find by the time I reach about 40 kills, I am starting to need to stretch mana. If I had started out with half mana, I would have out long ago.


And don't give me that "oh, they don't need those buffs". They want them, I have them, and it costs nothing for me to provide them. It's called teamwork.

So here's my challenge to all you yahoos who say there's no reason to go refill mana - let's see you do it, slick. I want to see a fraps of you going into the Shroud with no more than 1500 points of mana and see you reach 40 kills without using any potions.

Until I see that, you are officially deemed as being full of ****.

[Strakeln]

The fact of the matter is, in any competant group that has a chance at beating the raid, exiting for mana at the start to give more buffs is an utter waste of time.No, Shade, it's an utter waste of no time.

There's a 5 minute timer from when the portal pops to when it drops. Get your buffs and start whacking things, the caster has all the time in the world to refill mana without wasting even a second of your time.

[Strakeln]

IMHO, songs and T\S are far more important than rage. TS is important?

Dispel the 3-5 portals that are displaced instead of trying to figure out who is wearing TS goggles and who isn't.

[Kistilan]

Okay, I'm going to call your bluff. You either don't have a caster or you're full of ****.

My sorc has 2495 SP. When I come into the Shroud, I drop GH, jump, blur, Fire Resist, and haste. Then I hop back out and tell the group to go ahead with out me. I'm often back before that one straggler has arrived.

So then I start the Shroud with full mana. I have high SP and a high DC for my fingers and even my PKs, so I don't miss many. Yet I find by the time I reach about 40 kills, I am starting to need to stretch mana. If I had started out with half mana, I would have out long ago.


And don't give me that "oh, they don't need those buffs". They want them, I have them, and it costs nothing for me to provide them. It's called teamwork.

So here's my challenge to all you yahoos who say there's no reason to go refill mana - let's see you do it, slick. I want to see a fraps of you going into the Shroud with no more than 1500 points of mana and see you reach 40 kills without using any potions.

Until I see that, you are officially deemed as being full of ****.

I don't see a bluff. He's right -- make a shrine or put a bar in there. So are you but he was saying to expedite there should just be a shrine (or bar) in the entrance so people don't recall out (like yourself) after just to go get sp's back before jumping in again. Since the portal closes on a timer the abuse factor is negligible and you do have to leave the instance to hit a shrine in there if you were to, correct?

It would probably be nice -- not required -- to have a shrine in there to save an extra minute or two for the groups that don't have stragglers.

[Strakeln]

I don't see a bluff. He's right -- make a shrine or put a bar in there. So are you but he was saying to expedite there should just be a shrine (or bar) in the entrance so people don't recall out (like yourself) after just to go get sp's back before jumping in again. Since the portal closes on a timer the abuse factor is negligible and you do have to leave the instance to hit a shrine in there if you were to, correct?I agree a shrine there wouldn't be a bad thing. But he's not making a suggestion, he's trying to take a jab at casters who recall:


I could watch casters needlessly rest to regain their spell points


watching them needlessly recall outSo I say, if he thinks it's so unnecessary, he either:

1) Doesn't play a caster, or
2) Really sucks on his caster (no buffs for anyone, doesn't clear portals worth a ****)

I suppose there is a third option:
3) Sucks down mana pots in part 1

[maddmatt70]

Okay, I'm going to call your bluff. You either don't have a caster or you're full of ****.

My sorc has 2495 SP. When I come into the Shroud, I drop GH, jump, blur, Fire Resist, and haste. Then I hop back out and tell the group to go ahead with out me. I'm often back before that one straggler has arrived.

So then I start the Shroud with full mana. I have high SP and a high DC for my fingers and even my PKs, so I don't miss many. Yet I find by the time I reach about 40 kills, I am starting to need to stretch mana. If I had started out with half mana, I would have out long ago.


And don't give me that "oh, they don't need those buffs". They want them, I have them, and it costs nothing for me to provide them. It's called teamwork.

So here's my challenge to all you yahoos who say there's no reason to go refill mana - let's see you do it, slick. I want to see a fraps of you going into the Shroud with no more than 1500 points of mana and see you reach 40 kills without using any potions.

Until I see that, you are officially deemed as being full of ****.

Lol, I can not tell if this is really a joke or not. I can not recall you running your caster on one of our speed shrouds. This just does not work on a speed shroud. You would have to jump into the actual quest buff people and kill then recall out again get your mana and jump back in really quick. Seems like alot of work and some risk whereas if you run out of mana on part 1 the melee can just kill a few extra mobs which is no big deal..

[Comfortably]

Yeah, and then we can watch those same casters solo farm the shroud for more fun. DDoor=win.

Wow you are a smart cookie!! :D

[Strakeln]

Lol, I can not tell if this is really a joke or not. I can not recall you running your caster on one of our speed shrouds. This just does not work on a speed shroud. You would have to jump into the actual quest buff people and kill then recall out again get your mana and jump back in really quick. Seems like alot of work and some risk whereas if you run out of mana on part 1 the melee can just kill a few extra mobs which is no big deal..Speed shrouds are a different story... for one, your speed groups likely consist of players who don't need/want buffs - they all will carry whatever they need. Also, if it's a record attempt, use of extra resources is not unreasonable.

I'm talking in reference to your average pug crowd. Guild groups and hand-picked pugs are a different story completely. The average pug expects 1000 mana worth of buffs and clear portals... which is no problem with one caster if you jump out for mana while they dash in.

[gizmos199]

Thats why only smart people should run raids...if only there was a way to impliment that.

("Your intelligence is too low to post this LFM")

thats funny . i have never seen you post for a raid .

[cm2_supernova]

yay...the flames have fallen :D:D:D

TS is important?

Dispel the 3-5 portals that are displaced instead of trying to figure out who is wearing TS goggles and who isn't.

okay...fair enough on this one, but there really isnt anything to figure out...just hit everyone, there is going to be at least 2 clerics anyway so the SP cost isnt a big deal.


Okay, I'm going to call your bluff. You either don't have a caster or you're full of ****.

Look in my sig...I gots a caster!!! Situational Awareness FTW!!

After I am done giving GH\blur\mass pro I have about 1\2 my manna bar left which is more than enough to get through pt 1...manage your spell points homey



My sorc has 2495 SP. When I come into the Shroud, I drop GH, jump, blur, Fire Resist, and haste. Then I hop back out and tell the group to go ahead with out me. I'm often back before that one straggler has arrived.


Wow...2500 whole spellpoints :rolleyes:



So then I start the Shroud with full mana. I have high SP and a high DC for my fingers and even my PKs, so I don't miss many. Yet I find by the time I reach about 40 kills, I am starting to need to stretch mana. If I had started out with half mana, I would have out long ago.


Roaming is dumb too, kill as you go and kill portals fast

...oh, and no one cares about your kill count, especially the people you've kept waiting. I understand that hitting Tab\1 is wicked fun and all...but why dont you get a good portal beater and actually help your party out




And don't give me that "oh, they don't need those buffs". They want them, I have them, and it costs nothing for me to provide them. It's called teamwork.


no...its called ********...it costs you time, precious FOD\PK spell points, and my respect



So here's my challenge to all you yahoos who say there's no reason to go refill mana - let's see you do it, slick. I want to see a fraps of you going into the Shroud with no more than 1500 points of mana and see you reach 40 kills without using any potions.


I say again...no one cares about your kill count...slick



Until I see that, you are officially deemed as being full of ****.

Full of **** > Plain 'ol stupid



So I say, if he thinks it's so unnecessary, he either:

1) Doesn't play a caster, or
2) Really sucks on his caster (no buffs for anyone, doesn't clear portals worth a ****)

I suppose there is a third option:
3) Sucks down mana pots in part 1

Or secret option #4:

Has run the shroud more than twice and knows that if there are 2 casters one can buff and one can do all the super awesome things you are talking about, and if there is only 1 a little spell point managment is better than wasting everyones time.

Oh, and the whole "I can make it back in before the portal closes" thing would last about as long as it takes for the first person to have a long load time, wicked lag in Meridia or whatever and misses the portal

Hey...A for effort though buddy, even if you are all thrust no vector


thats funny . i have never seen you post for a raid .

ummmh....who are you?

[boldarblood]

Haste/Go

If the caster wants to step out for mana, they better well make it back in time or they get left behind. There is no need to leave the quest, if you can not manage your spell points then you are not ready for the Shroud.

[Strakeln]

Roaming is dumb too, kill as you go and kill portals fast
<snip>

I say again...no one cares about your kill count...slick

<snip>

Has run the shroud more than twice and knows that if there are 2 casters one can buff and one can do all the super awesome things you are talking about, and if there is only 1 a little spell point managment is better than wasting everyones time.Must be a server difference. Khyber PUGs rarely allow more than one caster in a shroud, and they expect that caster to have the portals clear upon melee crew arrival.

I agree, it's not about kill count - the point was, if you're doing your job (as the sole caster in a Khyber PUG) then you'll have around 40 kills by the time you come out of part 1. And that ain't gonna happen without a nearly full mana bar or some potions.

[spyderwolf]

Haste/Go

If the caster wants to step out for mana, they better well make it back in time or they get left behind. There is no need to leave the quest, if you can not manage your spell points then you are not ready for the Shroud.

fully agree haste and go. songs on first portal. if someone cant function in part 1 without buffs they should reroll.

and i have a caster who doesnt reecall out for mana or give out 50 buffs to everyone. cause in part 1 you need no buffs other than haste, rage, prayer, and songs. 3 out of 4 the bard gives. IF we dont have a bard i cast haste every 3 mintues and rage 2 times during the part 1. i dont run out mana AND i kill 40+. 2630 sp goes along way.

[boldarblood]

Must be a server difference. Khyber PUGs rarely allow more than one caster in a shroud, and they expect that caster to have the portals clear upon melee crew arrival.

I agree, it's not about kill count - the point was, if you're doing your job (as the sole caster in a Khyber PUG) then you'll have around 40 kills by the time you come out of part 1. And that ain't gonna happen without a nearly full mana bar or some potions.

Any pug that only allows 1 or even no casters shows a weak leader. Shroud has turned into the old Tempest Spine days. It's nothing more than a glorified loot run.

[Strakeln]

Any pug that only allows 1 or even no casters shows a weak leader. Shroud has turned into the old Tempest Spine days. It's nothing more than a glorified loot run.It's a glorified loot run that can take a long time. For the same reason that people will wait around for a bard, many seem to limit the casters to 1.

Personally, I think we should all agree to accept 2 casters into every shroud. We all have casters that need shards and completions too.

[boldarblood]

It's a glorified loot run that can take a long time. For the same reason that people will wait around for a bard, many seem to limit the casters to 1.

Personally, I think we should all agree to accept 2 casters into every shroud. We all have casters that need shards and completions too.

I have to admit my opinion can be a bit jaded as I am (well was until a recent computer problem, which should be fixed soon) a regular in the Speed runs with Prophets and Knights. Norg/Wuv/Mav/etc are more than willing to allow multiple casters (we've had up to 4-5). But we always bring a minimum of 2.

[Sirea]

Clerics in general do NOT run out of spell points in part 1

Unless you're like me and like running around stealing kills from the casters :D

[Beherit_Baphomar]

casters needlessly rest to regain their spell points for part 1 which is a real time saver compared to watching them needlessly recall out.

Thanks! :D

Casters using mana to buff? *** is the bard for?

[boldarblood]

Roaming is dumb too, kill as you go and kill portals fast

...oh, and no one cares about your kill count, especially the people you've kept waiting. I understand that hitting Tab\1 is wicked fun and all...but why dont you get a good portal beater and actually help your party out




I don't agree with this at all. It has nothing to do with kill counts. A caster roaming ahead of the party makes part 1 a lot more smooth. The caster is best served roaming in part 1.

[Shade]

No, Shade, it's an utter waste of no time.

There's a 5 minute timer from when the portal pops to when it drops. Get your buffs and start whacking things, the caster has all the time in the world to refill mana without wasting even a second of your time.

Thats assuming said caster is an utterly useless caster who will contribute zero kills to the initial clearout.

If he goes out for mana and does not join the group, he does not help the clear out and thus slows down the quest. He also does not contribute any DPS on the first X portals.

A small, perhaps insignificant loss? Perhaps, but enough of one for me to not allow people to do it who join my raids.

And the real purpose of my not liking this is : It encourages lazy play. The quest is designed around the fact that some buffs are needed and some mana is needed for said buffs. It's not designed for everyone to be buffed and casters to have 100% mana as well. This will be more encouraged in mod9 with the upcoming "persistance!" bonus, which will deducted -10% XP from every group member should any caster attempt to do this in mod9.

[Shade]

I don't agree with this at all. It has nothing to do with kill counts. A caster roaming ahead of the party makes part 1 a lot more smooth. The caster is best served roaming in part 1.

This may be true for the average pug group with a very average caster.

But in a skilled group, with a highly skilled caster.. Said caster can contribute DPS on the portals, and then just get 5-10 feet ahead of party for next portal and kill all 3 trogs before they even reach it anyways, resulting in zero loss of DPS on the portal.

Casters who do not melee the portals are often not serving the group effectively at all.

But I do understand this can lead to an orthon or cat at a later portal - however a strong group/or strong single caster is never slowed down by this, while an poor/average one can be severely slowed, as such the roaming caster may be more effective in that case.

It really depends on the overall power of the group to determine whats most effective.

Personally my sorc does everything in the shroud, I don't believe in the 1 role because thats what were best at thing. I buff the party, I do 50-80+ instal-kills, I melee the portals, I melee the pit fiend, I kill the crystal, I nuke the named, I do the puzzle, I run the water, I do the debuffs, I nuke the pitfiend, I heal scroll the party. Limiting yourself to 1 single function is just not the most effective way to do the shroud, or anything else.

[FluffyCalico]

To whom it may concern,

Is there any chance we can get a shrine put in the entrence to the shroud...you know, in the area before the portal to part 1. Ya see, if there was a shrine there I could watch casters needlessly rest to regain their spell points for part 1 which is a real time saver compared to watching them needlessly recall out.

Thanks! :D

To whom it may concern,

As soon as the melee stop crying for needless buffs the casters will stop getting their mana back.

IE: If your group is so weak they need GH, jump, fire, acid, blur, true seeing, mass pro, poision, deathward, every bard song, etc etc on everyone single person then last thing you should worry about is the caster getting back their SP. This is not caused by casters, its caused by crying melee.

[FluffyCalico]

Wow...2500 whole spellpoints :rolleyes:

?

How many do you want him to have? Only a newb would take a mental tuffness feat on a sorc.

[cm2_supernova]

To whom it may concern,

As soon as the melee stop crying for needless buffs the casters will stop getting their mana back.

IE: If your group is so weak they need GH, jump, fire, acid, blur, true seeing, mass pro, poision, deathward, every bard song, etc etc on everyone single person then last thing you should worry about is the caster getting back their SP. This is not caused by casters, its caused by crying melee.

Fair enough...I can agree with that, but if the caster had any balls they would say, "This is what you're getting...deal with it or drop"


How many do you want him to have? Only a newb would take a mental tuffness feat on a sorc.

Actually...my point wasnt that it was a low number, my point was that every other capped sorc in the game has the same ~2450 spell points...its not hard to get there so why brag?