Sorcerer Utility

[WaltzInBlack]

I give you Nailz....


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 2.90
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Nailzz
Level 16 Lawful Good Warforged Male
(2 Paladin \ 2 Rogue \ 12 Sorcerer)
Hit Points: 166
Spell Points: 985
BAB: 9\9\14
Fortitude: 17
Reflex: 14
Will: 14

Starting
Abilities Base Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1)
Strength 16
Dexterity 8
Constitution 14
Intelligence 10
Wisdom 6
Charisma 16

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 1
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 1
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 1
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 1
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 1
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 1

Level 1 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+4)
Skill: Disable Device (+4)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Jump (+4)
Skill: Listen (+4)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+4)
Skill: Search (+4)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+4)
Feat: (Selected) Skill Focus: Use Magic Device

Level 2 (Paladin)
Skill: Search (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)

Level 3 (Paladin)
Skill: Search (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness

Level 4 (Sorcerer)
Skill: Search (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (1): Hypnotism
Spell (1): Niac's Cold Ray

Level 5 (Sorcerer)
Skill: Search (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (1): Charm Person

Level 6 (Sorcerer)
Skill: Search (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Maximize Spell
Spell (1): Expeditious Retreat

Level 7 (Sorcerer)
Skill: Search (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (2): Web

Level 8 (Sorcerer)
Skill: Search (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (2): Knock

Level 9 (Sorcerer)
Skill: Search (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Spell
Spell (3): Haste

Level 10 (Sorcerer)
Skill: Search (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (2): Scorching Ray
Spell (3): Suggestion

Level 11 (Sorcerer)
Skill: Search (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (4): Wall of Fire

Level 12 (Sorcerer)
Skill: Search (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Heighten Spell
Spell (4): Phantasmal Killer
Spell (3): Heroism
Spell (2): Resist Energy

Level 13 (Sorcerer)
Skill: Search (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (5): Cloudkill

Level 14 (Rogue)
Skill: Disable Device (+6)
Skill: Search (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)

Level 15 (Sorcerer)
Skill: Search (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons

Level 16 (Sorcerer)
Skill: Search (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (6): Greater Heroism

[FluffyCalico]

I seem to be missing something. It's late please tell me what its good at besides self healing?

[Oreg]

I'm all for interesting builds but a wizard would be better for utility, especially with the rogue levels. Although I'd probably go just 2 rog and the rest wiz. I don't see the value in the 2 pally levels.

Unless in the hands of a skilled player, a sorc, IMO, should be pure. Having said that I have seen some really good sorc multi melee but they are few and far between.

[Noctus]

If you want an Eldritch Knight:
-2 CHA --> +2 CON / +4 INT
-2 Rogue --> +2 Monk


If you want to play a though Arcane with Evasion:
14 Wizard / 2 Rogue with Insightful Rerflexes.


edit:
corrected feat mix-up.

[Thriand]

If you want an Eldritch Knight:
-2 CHA --> +2 CON / +4 INT
-2 Rogue --> +2 Monk


If you want to play a though Arcane with Evasion:
14 Wizard / 2 Rogue with Force of Personality.

you mean insightful reflexes right?

[WaltzInBlack]

I seem to be missing something. It's late please tell me what its good at besides self healing?

good Saves,
wand whipping heal/reconstruction scroll whirling back up healer
high end UMD - all divine scrolls
16 levels of sorc at end game
normal/hard difficulty trap monkey
self hasted, diplaced, shielded fire wall monkey
more hp than a pure sorc
full buffs = swinging min2 or rad2 scimitar or weak /enfeeb= effective mellee
Evasion
and as you said self healing, with nice LOH
on most quests at normal/hard all i would need is 5 dps and we roll - UTILITY

If you want an Eldritch Knight: no thanks

I don't see the value in the 2 pally levels: SAVES = last one standing, still fighting the eye tyrant surrounded by stones, including the wiz/rogues :). 2 LOH with high CHR = nice. Martial weaps, shield. The pali levels is the Nail in Nailzz!

I understand the utility of the wiz rogue and it there for all to see. I believe that a 16 sorc has enough spells to function in 95% of content and combined with the pally levels toughens the character up significantly.

But thanks for the push back

[Noctus]

I believe that a 16 sorc has enough spells to function in 95% of content and combined with the pally levels toughens the character up significantly.

I do not.

- You will have noticeable problems with overcoming SR. The next Mod will also feature monsters with SR prominently. You are at -4 to your SR-roll.
- You miss out the, while not great, but still usefull, capstone enhancement.
- No level 9 spells. --> Also means -1 to your overall spell DC.
- You will be missing a bunch of SP.
- A pure Sorcerer with selfbuffed Master´s Touch and cross-classed UMD can do almost all the same stuff, without a cutback to his casting abilities.

To put it short:
The tradeoff of "4 sorcerer levels" for "Evasion and a boost to saves" is not worth it on a Caster-build.



last one standing, still fighting the eye tyrant surrounded by stones,


This build reminds me of the CHA-DEX Paladins of old. This now fortunately mostly extinct build was obsessed with Defence. They almost always were the last do die. But not because of their indeed good defence, so that they could happily see the monsters attacks glance away effectlessly, but because they were ignored by the monsters most of the fights, as they had problems dealing damage, and thus drawing aggro.
All your investment into defence doesnt contribute in a fight if no monster attacks you, instead fokussing their attention on the damage dealing, less though party members.





But thanks for the push back

Sometimes the truth is not nice.
If you present a build, you must be able to cope with critique.

[Lymnus]

Because you'll have trouble doing damage and getting argo to actually make your defensive abilities worthwhile, consider intimidate.

[Angelus_dead]

normal/hard difficulty trap monkey
The build you posted cannot do traps.

His starting intelligence is 10. That's enough for UMD, but nothing else.

[WaltzInBlack]

"The tradeoff of "4 sorcerer levels" for "Evasion and a boost to saves" is not worth it on a Caster-build."

That is a matter of opinion, I respectfully disagree but I do appreciate your arguments. i have a min/max sorc but all people REALLY want of me is haste firewall and to take out the crystal in the shroud!

"but because they were ignored by the monsters most of the fights, as they had problems dealing damage, and thus drawing aggro"

But those pally did not cast max empowered firewalls, i will have no problem drawing agro....


"But thanks for the push back "

"Sometimes the truth is not nice.
If you present a build, you must be able to cope with critique. "

Dude, i genuinely appreciate the critiques, asinine comments elsewhere plz

"Because you'll have trouble doing damage and getting argo to actually make your defensive abilities worthwhile, consider intimidate. "

Considered it but I feel intim requires AC and I really do not think agro will be an issue.

"The build you posted cannot do traps."

I will wager this build 'geared up' (+5's, gird etc) can do ALL level appropriate (non-cable) traps on normal and 90% on hard. I will have trouble with elite traps but this is no trap monkey I am making.

But anyway and genuinely! thx for the feedback again

[Lymnus]

"
"Because you'll have trouble doing damage and getting argo to actually make your defensive abilities worthwhile, consider intimidate. "

Considered it but I feel intim requires AC and I really do not think agro will be an issue.


Does it need AC? No.
What does it need? Damage migration. You have that. Displacement+Stoneskin.

Issue is what would you want to exchange for intimidate? That's a tough question. Balance? I dunno. Hide/Move Silently isn't needed, really, you have invisibility.

[WaltzInBlack]

Yep, I 'll buy that. Displacement, stoneskin and self healing would help for sure. Your second point is the real issue. I am already skill point starved.

Nonetheless, I maintain that I will see my fair share of agro without intim.

[Lymnus]

Maybe consider dropping heighten for extend. Your DCs will never be incredibly high. You don't have any SR feats, which makes your already low spell penn check worse. Focus on spells without a DC (think firewall, et cetera), and extend would let you retain your low duration buffs for longer.

If you really want intimidate, consider dropping STR down a point or two, and investing up to 10 (12 with tome) intelligence. You'd be focusing on getting a +3 STR tome, but with a few shroud runs, that wouldn't be too awfully hard.

[WaltzInBlack]

I agree, Extend over Heighten, ftw - thx. I am fairly sure about not going after intim tho.

[Angelus_dead]

I will wager this build 'geared up' (+5's, gird etc) can do ALL level appropriate (non-cable) traps on normal and 90% on hard. I will have trouble with elite traps but this is no trap monkey I am making.
First off, it was you who called it "trap monkey".

But to the point: have you actually read the build you posted? Did you maybe paste the wrong thing? The posted build has a 10 base intelligence and then 10 ranks in Disable and 13 in Search.

By level 16 anyone who wants to disarm a trap should have 19 Disable ranks. That's the minimal starting point, and from there you add intelligence, enhancements, buffs, items, and boosts. Compared to a real rogue, you're behind 9 ranks, 1-3 intelligence, and 0-2 APs. That's more than 10 points behind, which is serious "don't even bother" territory.

[Sweyn]

I agree that 16 sorc lvl's is low.. but are you going to be a melee sorc like this build.. your's is kinda similar.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=181901&highlight=tukaw

[WaltzInBlack]

I agree that 16 sorc lvl's is low.. but are you going to be a melee sorc like this build.. your's is kinda similar.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=181901&highlight=tukaw

And there I was thinking I was being a little original!



First off, it was you who called it "trap monkey".

But to the point: have you actually read the build you posted? Did you maybe paste the wrong thing? The posted build has a 10 base intelligence and then 10 ranks in Disable and 13 in Search.

By level 16 anyone who wants to disarm a trap should have 19 Disable ranks. That's the minimal starting point, and from there you add intelligence, enhancements, buffs, items, and boosts. Compared to a real rogue, you're behind 9 ranks, 1-3 intelligence, and 0-2 APs. That's more than 10 points behind, which is serious "don't even bother" territory.

I called it a normal /hard trap monkey and I stand by that. you said I could not do traps and you are clearly wrong. Have I read my own post? come on......

[Comfortably]

your spell casting and DPS thro fighting will be subpar, I don't see the point in this build.

[Noctus]

"The tradeoff of "4 sorcerer levels" for "Evasion and a boost to saves" is not worth it on a Caster-build."

That is a matter of opinion, I respectfully disagree but I do appreciate your arguments. i have a min/max sorc but all people REALLY want of me is haste firewall and to take out the crystal in the shroud

I concure, its a matter of taste. i find it definetly not worth the tradeoff, but if you value defence much higher than most other players, it might be a worthwile transaction for you to enhance your fun of the character.



"but because they were ignored by the monsters most of the fights, as they had problems dealing damage, and thus drawing aggro"

But those pally did not cast max empowered firewalls, i will have no problem drawing agro....

Yep. in this regard you build will be able to throw damage dealing spells to get aggro fast. Your DPS through spells wil be adequate enough.
Thats why i only said "it reminds me" and not " its like", as an example of a very defensive build. But the point was to show that part of a defensive characters increased longevity stems from getting less aggro, instead from good defence mechanisms.



I will wager this build 'geared up' (+5's, gird etc) can do ALL level appropriate (non-cable) traps on normal and 90% on hard. I will have trouble with elite traps but this is no trap monkey I am making.

But anyway and genuinely! thx for the feedback again



I love versatile classes, and so find it relatively easy to include some rogueish-ness on my characters. So i experimented around with several builds to find out how much investment in trapdisabling you need to make to be able to deal with traps reliably.

Its not much, but at least you need maxed skills, if you start with a effective INT of 10. All the standart gear included. ( level appropriate skill item, INT item to wear while disabling, GH buffed, or on lower levels Heroism potion, +5 tools, +2 skill boost)

I had a full DPS specced Tempest-splashed Rogue who started with a 10 INT, (as your build wants to). enough skillpoints to max out the trap skills, but as it was my 1st Rogue on the server i had trouble finding appropriate skill items while leveling, and even for some time while capped. All the other stuff was easy enough to get. For example i was running vale quests while capped, still with a +10 search and disable items.

So still leaving me at a total skill modifier higher than your build properly geared out will get, and i was constantly missing boxes, or worse, blowing them up. On normal level appropriate quests.

Although i capped him i later rerolled him with higher INT, as this trap-problems annoyed me very much, even as his DPS was incredible.


So i do not believe you will have constant trouble with traps, i do know it from a character with even a bit better trapskills.
Both INT 10. Mine lacking in skill items, your will have about the same penalty through not-maxed skill ranks. Your trapdealing part of your build will not work out as you plan it to.

[Drekisen]

I am currently making a build with the same calss splits. I'm not using the rogue levels tho for traps and stuff but to max my umd.

If I did read the character sheet properly it would seem u will have a hard time with traps, some of them are really hard (more than cabal) and require near maxxed ranks and items. Intelligence is not as much an issue but the items and skill ranks I would think should stay maxxed.

Don't forget the Bracers in the Reaver Raid stack with DD items.

Good luck on ur build idea :)

[Vyctor]

You are better off going 2 monk instead of 2 rogue for the extra feats with the trapskills not in range of being useful.

[Angelus_dead]

You are better off going 2 monk instead of 2 rogue for the extra feats with the trapskills not in range of being useful.
But then he can't get max UMD ranks... although pure sorcerers commonly handle UMD with just half-ranks, trusting on high charisma to make up for it.

Monk would raise his fort and will saves, but with pally levels he has no need for that.

[WaltzInBlack]

So i do not believe you will have constant trouble with traps, i do know it from a character with even a bit better trapskills.
Both INT 10. Mine lacking in skill items, your will have about the same penalty through not-maxed skill ranks. Your trapdealing part of your build will not work out as you plan it to.

Thanks for sharing this experience. Combined with A_Ds comments on traps, i think I had better go with a 12 int, 14 with +2 tome. It will cost me either a str or chr tho....

again thx all for taking the time to post your thoughts

Waltz

[Sweyn]

2 lvl's of monk gives feats, 2 lvl's of rogue gives skills.. take your pick
Im doing the tukaw build now that i showed you... (Hes at lvl 3 and pretty fun)

[Noctus]

Thanks for sharing this experience. Combined with A_Ds comments on traps, i think I had better go with a 12 int, 14 with +2 tome. It will cost me either a str or chr tho....

again thx all for taking the time to post your thoughts

Waltz


14 effective base INT + maxed ranks lets you deal with all traps reliably.

[WaltzInBlack]

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 2.90
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Nailz
Level 16 Lawful Good Warforged Male
(2 Paladin \ 2 Rogue \ 12 Sorcerer)
Hit Points: 182
Spell Points: 964
BAB: 9\9\14
Fortitude: 17
Reflex: 13
Will: 13

Starting
Abilities Base Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1)
Strength 16
Dexterity 8
Constitution 16
Intelligence 14
Wisdom 6
Charisma 14

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 1
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 1
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 1
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 1
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 1
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 1

Starting
Base Skills
Skills (Level 1)
Balance 1
Bluff 4
Concentration 4
Diplomacy 4
Disable Device 7
Haggle 3
Heal -1
Hide 1
Intimidate 7
Jump 8
Listen 0
Move Silently 1
Open Lock 4
Perform n/a
Repair 7
Search 7
Spot 3
Swim 5
Tumble 1
Use Magic Device 7

Level 1 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Bluff (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+4)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+4)
Skill: Jump (+4)
Skill: Listen (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+4)
Skill: Repair (+4)
Skill: Search (+4)
Skill: Spot (+4)
Skill: Swim (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+4)
Feat: (Selected) Skill Focus: Use Magic Device

Level 2 (Paladin)
Skill: Disable Device (+0.5)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)

Level 3 (Paladin)
Skill: Disable Device (+0.5)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness

Level 4 (Sorcerer)
Skill: Disable Device (+0.5)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)

Level 5 (Sorcerer)
Skill: Disable Device (+0.5)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)

Level 6 (Sorcerer)
Skill: Disable Device (+0.5)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Maximize Spell

Level 7 (Sorcerer)
Skill: Disable Device (+0.5)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)

Level 8 (Sorcerer)
Skill: Disable Device (+0.5)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)

Level 9 (Sorcerer)
Skill: Disable Device (+0.5)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Spell

Level 10 (Sorcerer)
Skill: Disable Device (+0.5)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)

Level 11 (Sorcerer)
Skill: Disable Device (+0.5)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)

Level 12 (Sorcerer)
Skill: Disable Device (+0.5)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell

Level 13 (Sorcerer)
Skill: Disable Device (+0.5)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)

Level 14 (Rogue)
Skill: Disable Device (+7)
Skill: Search (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+2)

Level 15 (Sorcerer)
Skill: Disable Device (+0.5)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Quicken Spell

Level 16 (Sorcerer)
Skill: Disable Device (+1.5)
Skill: Search (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)

[Drekisen]

I'm seeing Quicken and Skill Focus: UMD.

If it's at all possible...try and keep ur concentartion maxxed and ditch quicken it is not neccesary for a Sorc with good concentration. The UMD feat is overkill I think.

[Oreg]

I'd actually replace UMD focus with extend on this type of melee/caster build. You'll probably want the extra time on buffs since you plan on meleeing things down instead of insta killing.

[Ereshkigal]

I do not.

- You will have noticeable problems with overcoming SR. .

Conjuration spells are unaffected by spell resistance and can work well with this build.

Personally I have a conjuration specced 2F/18S build I'm currently leveling that will have the THF feat line. It doesn't try to do all the things that this build does, but it does conserve a lot of spellpoints which can be used for self healing my squishy self. It's a great solo build, and in groups it doesn't require any healing, and the heightened and enhanced DC glitterdusts, webs, Solid or Acid Fog, Stinky Cloud, or even Cloudkill can make otherwise bleh melee abilities do wonders. I haven't yet achieved the levels to check it but i'm hoping that later on mind fog will be enough to make Dancing Sphere effective.

The OP's build does try to do an awful lot of things, but he doesn't try to hide it's limitations. He never said it did everything perfectly or the best. I do not think it would be a drain on any party however, if properly played.

[Angelus_dead]

Conjuration spells are unaffected by spell resistance and can work well with this build.
Incorrect.

In the D&D game rules that statement resembles the truth, and many players repeat it.

But in DDO it just has no relation to the actual rules at all.

[Lymnus]

I haven't yet achieved the levels to check it but i'm hoping that later on mind fog will be enough to make Dancing Sphere effective.

Good idea, just not exactly right in practice.

Mind Fog is a 5th level spell. It has a will save for no effect.
Dancing ball is a 7th level spell. It has a will save for no effect.

If it fails on Mind Fog, it would have failed on Dancing Ball, anyways, since Dancing Ball has 2 more DC.

[daniel7]

You could also consider the drow bard/sorc builds which have plenty of UMD, good ac, and use rapiers. With 1bard/19sorc you wouldnt be sacrificing much as far as spell points and getting past sr, or if you really need that evasion 1bard/2rog/17sorc.

[Angelus_dead]

You could also consider the drow bard/sorc builds which have plenty of UMD, good ac, and use rapiers. With 1bard/19sorc you wouldnt be sacrificing much as far as spell points and getting past sr, or if you really need that evasion 1bard/2rog/17sorc.
That's quite opposite to his stated goal of having a character who can stand there in the center of angry monsters and not die.

Changing the race to non-warforged makes it squishier.
Changing the race to drow makes it squishier.
Removing the pally levels makes it even more squishly.