Dual-Khopesh Power Attack Intimitank

[Thanimal]

(power-gamer version)

UPDATE!

For a few reasons, this build has become obsolete before it even became legal. Now that we know Monk 2's AC will only apply if centered, 13/6/1 becomes the obvious choice. In addition, Dark-Star now offers a very compelling build that uses Paladin Defender instead of Fighter Defender that I think most folks will like better:

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=194791

And even if you prefer Fighter (and personally I'm still on the fence), his stats appears to be far better tuned to the power-gaming audience. So go check it out! I leave my original post below for historical reference.


Introduction:
For a while now I've been chasing a high DPS build that can actually hit tank-like AC with pretty decent saves and Evasion, without switching to a low-DPS setup with Shield and/or CE. While I can't claim "victory," I've finally gotten close enough that I think it's worth publishing this.

But first, some caveats:
- I have not built this. All of my evaluation is from analysis.
- This build is aimed at power-gamers. In order for it to really work you need 32 point builds and some high end equipment that requires heavy farming. However, the same basic idea can also be followed in non-power-gamer version, which ends up somewhat different. Non-power-gamers please click here:
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=2193062
- This is not a *true* DPS build -- it's primary function is Intimitank. (But I don't want to undersell it's best-case DPS either.)
- This build does not even qualify for Combat Expertise, and will never use a Shield (at least at higher levels). The whole idea is to maintain good DPS even while Intimitanking.
- The intimidate score here is a bit of an afterthought. Intimidate is used on crowds, but against bosses this build holds aggro from the combination of DPS and Hate. My math suggests there is no build in the game that can (unintentionally) permanently hold aggro from this guy (fairly high base DPS then adds +50% hate in stance and 4d6+6 Sneak Attack kicks in if aggro is lost).
- This build is NOT a trap-monkey, but there is room to just barely maintain the key skills so that most traps and locks can be handled with a little help from items and buffs.

Background:
As a general rule, I feel Intimitanks need somewhat of a dual-role -- in other words they need something useful to do in cases where Intimidating is not required, or there is another Intimitank in the party, or they are at the bottom of the level range of the party and can't quite take the heat. In that case, this build offers massive DPS potential by tacking Sneak Attack on top of decent dual-Kophesh Power Attack base. As a handy sidelight, it also can do some traps and locks.

Next, here's a few questions I anticipate:
Why so much Rogue? Amazingly, no other class can compete with the AC potential of Rogue. Not only do you get 3 points of DEX, but you get minutes worth of +6 AC from Uncanny Dodge, and bursts of 2 more from Showtime. The sneak-attack also is a boon for "DPS mode" and for reclaiming boss aggro if the 50% hate bonus isn't enough.
Why 12/6/2 rather than 13/6/1? Two reasons: 1) I ran out of feats! 2) This build is on the hairy edge of enough AC for a true intimitanking, so the 1 point from Monk 2 matters.

And so finally the build!

Warforged Rogue (Acrobat) 8/Fighter (Defender) 6/Monk 2 (after cap goes up: 12/6/2)
STR 16 + 1 Tome + 2 fighter + 3 bumps + 6 item = 28
DEX 16 + 1 Tome + 3 Rogue + 6 item = 26
INT 9 + 1 Tome = 10
CON 11 + 1 Tome + 2 WF + 6 item = 20
WIS 14 + 2 Tome + 1 Monk + 1 bump + 6 item = 24
CHA 6

NOTES:
- By 20, figure on a +2 STR Tome and put the final stat bump there, too, reaching (base) STR 30.
- Even for my "uber" audience, I'm hesitant to assume in +3 Tomes. But if you've got 'em, they can help tremendously on DEX, and CON (probably in that order).

Feats
EDIT: I've just been blind-sided by the fact that Dodge, TWD, and Shield all stack (thanks Dark!), so "clearly" this build must have TWD. My take is to give up a little Intim score to fit it (again relying on DPS/Hate for the harder to Intim):
Fighter bonus: Focus: Slashing, Specialization: Slashing, Khopesh Proficiency, Dodge
Monk bonus: Toughness, Power Attack
Base: TWF, iTWF, gTWF, oTWF, iCrit: Slashing, TWD, Bullheaded
Rogue Bonus Feat (above current cap): Slippery Mind. (Feel free to take something else here, but personally nothing annoys me more than a failed Will save, and the difference between 1/20 and 1/400 is HUGE.)

Note: Annoyingly, one of these has to wait until 18. My best guess is Bullhead, so I don't count that in my "through 16" numbers below.

DPS
I'm not going to exactly quantify it, but let me just list key things toward DPS:
Fully enhanced PA (-8/+8) always on
Weapon Specialization
dual-weilding Khopesh
STR 28 (30 in Defender stance)
+25% Rogue Haste Boost
4d6+6 Sneak attack if not Intimidating

As mentioned above, we're not competing for kills with the best DPS builds in the game, but this is never-the-less quite a lot of DPS while Intimidating. And if somebody else is doing the Intimidating, I believe this build actually CAN compete for kills with "true" DPS builds.
Note that, since we're eating a -10 to-hit penalty (dual weild + PA), and we don't have Ludicrous Strength, we really do need Oversized TWF and Khopesh Proficiency feats.

AC @ 16 (uber equipment assumed)
10 base
9 DT docent
8 dex
7 wisdom
1 Monk
1 alchemical
2 Chaosgarde
1 Dodge
1 TWD
1 Defender
2 Defender stance
5 deflection
4 Shield (UMDed from wand)
1 Haste
3 Barkskin
3 Dodge on DT docent
4 Insight Khopesh
---
63 "sustainable self-buff"

6 Improved Uncanny Dodge (2:30 of this per rest even at current cap; eventually 4 minutes)
2 Showtime
---
71 "self-buff when needed"

Party help
+2 Recitation
+2 Bark
+5 aura
+4 Bard Song
---
84 "very optimistic"

Uberer equipment
+1 from +3 Dex tome
+1 from +2 Exceptional Wisdom on Docent
---
86 "ridiculously optimistic"

So there's plenty of builds with higher AC potential, but this looks like enough to claim "true intimitank" status.

Enhancements (through 20)
12 Rogue Dex III
6 Rogue Haste Boost III
1 Rogue Faster Sneaking I (acrobat prereq)
3 Rogue Tumble II (acrobat prereq)
3 Rogue Balance II (acrobat prereq)
6 Rogue Acrobat II
3 Fighter Intim II
1 Fighter Armor Boost I (defender prereq)
4 Stalwart Defender I
6 WF PA III
3 WF Toughness II
3 Fighter Toughness II
6 Fighter STR II
6 WF CON II
2 Monk WIS I
3 Rogue Skill Boost II [gonna be a not-so-good trapmonkey and like it]
3 Rogue Sneak Attack Training II
1 Monk Way of the Intimidate Bonus I
2 WF Healer's Friend I
3 WF Hardiness II
3 WF Construct Thinking II
---
80

So that hurt a bit. But when a build is trying to do a lot of things well, the more expensive tiers of enhancements often can't fit. Everything truly critical to the build has made it.

Saves @ 16 (with uber equipment)
Monk 2: 3/3/3
Fighter 6: 5/2/2
Rogue 8: 2/6/2
Stats: 5/8/7
GH: 4/4/4
Resist: 5/5/5
Luck: 2/2/2
Defender Stance: 1/1/1
Enhancements: 2/0/2
---
29/31/28


"Good enough" I think.

Intim score
19 ranks
15 item
1 Monk enh
2 Fighter enh
2 Defender enh
-2 CHA
4 GH
2 luck
2 Bard song
---
45

As previously noted, this is only "OK." Against guys that are tough to Intimidate, we rely on DPS+Hate to hold aggro, with Sneak Attack kicking in to reclaim it if somebody can maintain 150% of this build's DPS.
I think there may be some uberer equipment I'm forgetting, too?

Skills
EDIT: My first pass at skills left out UMD, which I really think is critical (for Shield and Repair wands and many other minor benefits). So it turns out skills are a little ugly. But I just can't justify more INT on this guy. The bar is going to have to be "just barely passable Rogue skills so people don't laugh too hard." :) I would have abandoned Spot except the Monk skill points can't obviously go to anything better!

NOTE: Must eat +1 INT Tome at level 1!
Intimidate: 19 (full) ranks.
UMD: 19 (full) ranks.
Search: 18 ranks.
Spot: 16 ranks. (CAREFUL! You need to put ALL of your Monk skill points into Spot, so don't take Monk 1 until 7 or later nor Monk 2 until 13 or later. That's even true if you abandon Spot and go for Jump instead.)
Disable: 18 ranks.
Open Lock: 4 ranks (taken at Rogue 1)
Jump: 4 ranks (taken at Rogue 1)

Note: No points are available for Balance, but at level 20 we suddenly don't care b/c of Knockdown Immunity from Rogue Acrobat II. So we just rely on decent DEX until then.
Note: Because the last 4 levels are all Rogue, we'll be able to "fix" these skills up above current cap. Those 32 points will allow final totals of Intim/UMD/Search/Spot/Disable: 23 (full) and Open Lock to 13.

Hit points
20: base
48: 8 Rogue
16: 2 Monk
60: 6 Fighter
18: Toughness
40: Toughness Enhancement
30: Greater False Life
20: Minos hat
96: CON bonus (in stance)
45: Shroud item
10: Draconic Vitality
---
403

Again, nobody is going to marvel at your amazing hit points, but most folks seem to quote 400 as the threshold for a true intimitank, and we've eeked over that.

Phew, we've made it to the end of the build! What I think I've done here is hit all the minimum bars for Intimitanking (some barely!) while maintaining some truly meaningful DPS while Intimidating. Hope you've found it interesting and thought-provoking!

[Thanimal]

EDIT: I think I salvaged my skill point error. It's not pretty, but I think it works well enough to usually avoid having to say "yeah, I can't do traps at all..."

[baddax]

Was thinking of a similar build today(more ftr less rogue),still fleshing it out. I like some of your ideas though.

[Thanimal]

Was thinking of a similar build today(more ftr less rogue),still fleshing it out. I like some of your ideas though.

Cool! Thanks. I'm all about the ideas :).

As to the class mix, I personally feel that Rogue 8 is a critical cutoff point for Intimitanking. The reason is that 4 uses of regular Uncanny Dodge is *almost* useless. That's a grand total of a minute, but NOT a continuous minute. 15 seconds at a time of +4 AC can't be a bad thing, but it sure is a minor feature (at least the way I use it anyhow).

5 uses of Improved Uncanny Dodge is night and day different. That's a continuous 2 minutes and 30 seconds (divisible into 30 second chunks) per shrine of an almost-ridiculous +6 AC.

If you don't have that, I feel you're gonna be forced to take and use Combat Expertise to maintain sufficient tankiness against bosses, and that's exactly what I was trying to avoid! :)

[Dark-Star]

Looks like a fun build.

Swap 1 level of monk for 1 level of rogue; take the best melee ability in the game, Crippling Strike.

Six ranger levels is also pretty good, more offense than defense.

[Comfortably]

I had a guildy do a build like this , human 7 fighter/6ranger/3paly.

[Thanimal]

Looks like a fun build.

I think so, too! I hope somebody who has the resources builds this thing!


Swap 1 level of monk for 1 level of rogue; take the best melee ability in the game, Crippling Strike.

I actually addressed that in my original post, but here's three reasons I (mildly) disagree: 1) What feat would you drop? 2) Every point of AC is so precious here. 3) Crippling Strike doesn't work while Intimidating (since it requires Sneak status).

If you desperately want it, though, you could take it instead of Slippery Mind.


Six ranger levels is also pretty good, more offense than defense.

13 Ro/6 Ra/1 Mo is a *fantastic* build, and one I've recommended to quite a few people recently. But its role is different. For the role of Intimitank, Fighter offers MUCH more. The extra feats allow +5 Intim, enhancements allow +4 more. That's a night and day difference. And the Defender stance is huge here, totalling 3 extra points of AC -- a yawning gap for a build that is *barely* maintaining the requisite AC for true intimitanking. And that's not to mention the +50% hate, which is actually a critically important feature to hold high-end boss aggro.

Minor note: I'm assuming that the Tempest AC bonus is a Shield bonus, as it soon will be, and therefore is completely useless on a build that plans to UMD a Shield wand at all times.

[Thanimal]

I had a guildy do a build like this , human 7 fighter/6ranger/3paly.

Not to be totally dense, but how is that a build like this? Different race and only one class is the same, no? Also no Evasion.

Is your point that it was a dual-Khopesh Power Attacking Intimitank? If so, how in the world did he/she get enough AC? I've never been able to get close using those 3 classes, except by using a Shield AND CE. And thus the DPS would be significantly less than half.

I'm guessing I misunderstand your point?

[Dark-Star]

I actually addressed that in my original post, but here's three reasons I (mildly) disagree: 1) What feat would you drop? 2) Every point of AC is so precious here. 3) Crippling Strike doesn't work while Intimidating (since it requires Sneak status).

If you desperately want it, though, you could take it instead of Slippery Mind.

Not true, you can sneak attack after your Radiance2 procs, whether you have agro or not. Again, Crippling Strike is THE best melee ability in the game atm.


This build is aimed at power-gamers

If that's the case, +2 tomes will not be an issue.


STR 16 + 1 Tome + 2 fighter + 3 bumps + 6 item = 28
DEX 16 + 1 Tome + 3 Rogue + 6 item = 26
INT 9 + 1 Tome = 10
CON 11 + 1 Tome + 2 WF + 6 item = 20
WIS 14 + 2 Tome + 1 Monk + 1 bump + 6 item = 24
CHA 6


Your intention is to have a high ac intimitank with decent dps.

You stats need reworking to optimally achieve this goal.

Str to 15 +2 tome still gives 28
Dex to 15 +2 tome still gives 26
You now have 4 more build points.
Int to 11, +2 tome for 13 so you can have CE (see below).
Cha to 8 +2 tome +6 item = 16 (+3)

Now drop one monk level for one more rogue, giving you 1d6 more in SA damage and Subtle BS 4 (more dps when you want it), AND slippery mind if you choose it.

Drop Bullheaded and SF: intim. Take CE. I can tell you from experience that you will want the flexibility to go high AC mode, and high dps mode via PA. The difference between 85 and 90 AC tanking VoD elite is noticable.

Well what about intimidate then?

Old:


Intim score
19 ranks
15 item
1 Monk enh
2 Fighter enh
2 Defender enh
3 SF: Intim
2 Bullheaded
-2 CHA
4 GH
2 luck
2 Bard song
---
50

New:

Intim score
19 ranks
15 item
1 Monk enh
2 Fighter enh
2 Defender enh
3 CHA
4 GH
2 luck
2 Bard song
---
50

Now add 6 for a shroud cha skills item, and up to 5 more for skill boost, 61 intim when you need it most.

Like I said, looks like it could be fun, just needs a bit of fine tuning.

[baddax]

so whats the big deal about crippling strike?

[Thanimal]

Thanks for the detailed feedback, Dark. Lots of good ideas there. I'm not going to refute any of them, though I think some are personal preference. You're also the first person I've seen indicate that AC above 85 is meaningful. I have no clue if you're right -- I can only guess from other posts I've seen.

I'll let readers decide which tweaks they want, and how sure they are of having +2 and/or +3 Tomes.

Wait, I lied: I will disagree on one thing: I don't think counting skill boost for Intimidate is realistic, since you can't HOLD aggro that way.

[Noctus]

I don't think counting skill boost for Intimidate is realistic, since you can't HOLD aggro that way.

true.

[Dark-Star]

so whats the big deal about crippling strike?

Zero str = auto crits and auto SA on every hit. Unlike the new way the wop nerf works, where if you don't kill the mob during the short stun it reverts back to normal, a zero str mob is helpless to fight or cast. Also each two points of str will in essence give you one more point of AC and one pont of DR.


Wait, I lied: I will disagree on one thing: I don't think counting skill boost for Intimidate is realistic, since you can't HOLD aggro that way.

Notice I am not counting it full time, but said it's available for when you really need it. There are times when you need max intim to get the mobs, but don't need max all the time. As an example, some will use an intimi-tank in VoD when the Orthons pop. That tank agros them all, then pulls them away to the opposite corner from the rest of the party.

Since you have stated that you will not be shield blocking (which is a mistake imo, as shield blocking is a viable strategy at certain times on any build, including pure arcanes), you will be relying on a combo of DPS and intim to hold aggro. Using the boost initially can be a big boon; after you lock agro, you likely won't need the boost unless you lose agro, at which time the boost can be great.

As far as upper end AC is concerned, having a character with very high ac (76 self buffed, high 80's-low 90's raid buffed), I can tell you from experience that when tanking Sulu there is a difference. Don't get me wrong, in most other quests even on elite, 65-70 is plenty, but there are exceptions. And I cannot imagine that the new mod won't have raid bosses with higher to hit than Sulu on elite.

Thinking more about the feats, I'd drop spec for twd, giving you one more ac- your damage will be off the charts anyway.

[Thanimal]

Thinking more about the feats, I'd drop spec for twd, giving you one more ac- your damage will be off the charts anyway.

I agree with most of your points. This particular one doesn't quite work, however, as TWD is a Shield bonus and therefore does not stack with a Shield wand.

Btw, I very much agree with the need to eek out every point of AC, and that's why I personally still feel Monk 2 is the way to go. I fully admit there are many disadvantages to that path, but it's also up to two more points of AC (1 all the time from the "centered but doesn't actually require being centered" bonus, and often one more from the Monk WIS enhancement).

[Thanimal]

Just barely on topic, I wanted to note something:

I was thinking that if somebody is willing to take and use CE on this build, then perhaps they'd be better off to build the "non-power-gamer" version of this (with Finesse & Kukri) and then NOT use CE. That build has the potential for 2-3 more points of AC and it seemed to me that Power Attacking with Kukris might be more DPS than Combat Expertising with Khopeshes. And it looks like there is SOME truth to that. Kukri/PA leads Khopesh/CE against AC below 35 (assuming Bard Song/GH), and then Kukri without PA (but NOT using CE) leads the way above AC 38. So, if playing optimally, there's a very narrow range where Khopesh/CE is more DPS that the dual-Kukri finesse version with the same equipment quality assumed.

http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/ddo/analyze.php?1label=WF+A%2FD%2FM+Kukri+PA&1bab=13&1atktype=dw&1spm=107.7&1phd=1d6%2B5%2B2%2B6%2B8&1phed=3d6&1phth=7&1phthreat=15%2Fx2&1phxcrit=2d6&1phfocus=on&1phlight=on&1ohd=1d6%2B5%2B2%2B6%2B8&1ohed=3d6&1ohth=7&1ohthreat=15%2Fx2&1ohxcrit=2d6&1ohfocus=on&1ohlight=on&1str=26&1dex=30&12wpn=on&1imp2wpn=on&1gtr2wpn=on&1finess=on&1sneakpct=0&1sneakd=1d6&2label=WF+A%2FD%2FM+Khopesh+CE&2bab=13&2atktype=dw&2spm=107.7&2phd=1d8%2B5%2B2%2B6&2phed=3d6&2phth=10&2phthreat=17%2Fx3&2phxcrit=4d6&2phfocus=on&2phlight=on&2ohd=1d8%2B5%2B2%2B6&2ohed=3d6&2ohth=10&2ohthreat=17%2Fx3&2ohxcrit=4d6&2ohfocus=on&2ohlight=on&2str=30&2dex=10&22wpn=on&2imp2wpn=on&2gtr2wpn=on&2sneakpct=&2sneakd=&report=on&minac=20&maxac=45

http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/ddo/analyze.php?1label=WF+A%2FD%2FM+Kukri+PA+off&1bab=13&1atktype=dw&1spm=107.7&1phd=1d6%2B5%2B2%2B6&1phed=3d6&1phth=15&1phthreat=15%2Fx2&1phxcrit=2d6&1phfocus=on&1phlight=on&1ohd=1d6%2B5%2B2%2B6&1ohed=3d6&1ohth=15&1ohthreat=15%2Fx2&1ohxcrit=2d6&1ohfocus=on&1ohlight=on&1str=26&1dex=30&12wpn=on&1imp2wpn=on&1gtr2wpn=on&1finess=on&1sneakpct=0&1sneakd=1d6&2label=WF+A%2FD%2FM+Khopesh+CE&2bab=13&2atktype=dw&2spm=107.7&2phd=1d8%2B5%2B2%2B6&2phed=3d6&2phth=10&2phthreat=17%2Fx3&2phxcrit=4d6&2phfocus=on&2phlight=on&2ohd=1d8%2B5%2B2%2B6&2ohed=3d6&2ohth=10&2ohthreat=17%2Fx3&2ohxcrit=4d6&2ohfocus=on&2ohlight=on&2str=30&2dex=10&22wpn=on&2imp2wpn=on&2gtr2wpn=on&2sneakpct=&2sneakd=&report=on&minac=20&maxac=45

This doesn't prove anything, of course. This Khopesh version is still MUCH more DPS when NOT using CE, and so the package of higher DPS most of the time with "backup" of lower-DPS CE could be great.

But it's not what I'm looking for, personally. My interest here is in finding an intimitank who can continue to dish massive DPS even while tanking the boss. Not sure I've found that, but it's the closest I've gotten!

[Dark-Star]

I agree with most of your points. This particular one doesn't quite work, however, as TWD is a Shield bonus and therefore does not stack with a Shield wand.

Btw, I very much agree with the need to eek out every point of AC, and that's why I personally still feel Monk 2 is the way to go. I fully admit there are many disadvantages to that path, but it's also up to two more points of AC (1 all the time from the "centered but doesn't actually require being centered" bonus, and often one more from the Monk WIS enhancement).

Despite what the out of date Wiki says, TWD is not a shield bonus. It won't be for mod 9 either, as it is a possible pre-req for Tempest 3, and would not stack with the +4 shield bonus the PrE gives if it was changed.

Monk +1 to ac is given at monk level 1, not 2.

As to the +1 monk wisdom, a +3 tome will achieve the same result, and they should be dropping unbound next mod. The free rogue feat, Subtle BS4, and an additional 1d6 SA is far better than what a second level of monk gives.

More thought on the build (can you tell I like it?), Defender stance gives +2 to str and con, which is not noted. Add rage pot or spell for another +2, and a +2 tome. So now you have 16 +2 tome +2 enh +2 rage +6 item = 28, +2 more when in stance, +2 more when using Madstone clicky.

Now if you want to eek out every drop of ac, take your level ups (you missed one in your original post) and add them to dex. 16 +4 level ups +3 rog + 3 tome +6 item = 32, or an additional +3 ac on the build, maintining your str target or better. Also gives you 3 more reflex.

So incoprporating my changes gives the build 4 more constant ac (dex and TWD), and 9 more when you go tank mode with CE on. Add +2 exceptional wisdom on one of your Min2 khopeshes for +1 more ac (+5/+10 more ac). Going 13 rogue vs. 2 monk you will also get more DPS via 1d6 more SA, and better survivability from adding Improved Evasion or Slippery Mind (Crippling Strike should be taken at level 10 regardless).

This build screams for versatility. Yes PA is great most of the time, but there will be times when CE is the better option, I speak from experience.

[Thanimal]

Despite what the out of date Wiki says, TWD is not a shield bonus. It won't be for mod 9 either, as it is a possible pre-req for Tempest 3, and would not stack with the +4 shield bonus the PrE gives if it was changed.


WOW!!! I just rolled up a Human Wizard with TWF and TWD to verify this, and it is TRUE! I cannot believe I didn't know this!! This is very significant to MANY of my builds. And it for SURE needs to find its way into this build! THANK YOU FOR BRINGING THIS TO MY ATTENTION!


Monk +1 to ac is given at monk level 1, not 2.

That is definitely not true -- I have splashed Monk into just about every build I've done in the last few months and I can assure you the first extra point comes at 2.


As to the +1 monk wisdom, a +3 tome will achieve the same result, and they should be dropping unbound next mod. The free rogue feat, Subtle BS4, and an additional 1d6 SA is far better than what a second level of monk gives.

Still disagree :). The +1 monk wisdom will sometimes allow you an extra point of AC and sometimes won't. It's impossible to predict exactly where the end-game will leave these things (+4 Tomes? +3 exceptional items?), so the way I see it is that every point counts.


More thought on the build (can you tell I like it?), Defender stance gives +2 to str and con, which is not noted.

I was starting to think you liked the general idea, yes. :) And I've really enjoyed your feedback -- well reasoned and interesting, even where I still disagree.

I noted the STR and CON bonuses in a couple of places and used it my (unpublished) DPS figuring, but I did leave it off the stats themselves. Not sure why I did it that way, but that stance isn't quite "always on" because it makes you so slooooow.


Add rage pot or spell for another +2, and a +2 tome. So now you have 16 +2 tome +2 enh +2 rage +6 item = 28, +2 more when in stance, +2 more when using Madstone clicky.

Rage is a little dangerous here, as the -2 AC could really hurt sometimes. But it's a good point that when tanking something "easy" you can add some more DPS.


Now if you want to eek out every drop of ac, take your level ups (you missed one in your original post) and add them to dex. 16 +4 level ups +3 rog + 3 tome +6 item = 32, or an additional +3 ac on the build, maintining your str target or better. Also gives you 3 more reflex.

The level-ups through 16 are there -- the last one is on Wisdom. The dex route is exactly what I did on the "non-power-gamer" version, which I think is potentially a great build for anyone if you want more AC. But here I was trying to maximize DPS while just barely hitting "true" tank numbers. Do keep in mind that this build's to-hit is actually not very impressive, so dropping STR even a little comes with some real cost. For my lower-STR version I went with Finesse to be able to hit things, but Kukris are no Khopeshes :).


So incoprporating my changes gives the build 4 more constant ac (dex and TWD), and 9 more when you go tank mode with CE on. Add +2 exceptional wisdom on one of your Min2 khopeshes for +1 more ac (+5/+10 more ac). Going 13 rogue vs. 2 monk you will also get more DPS via 1d6 more SA, and better survivability from adding Improved Evasion or Slippery Mind (Crippling Strike should be taken at level 10 regardless).

This build screams for versatility. Yes PA is great most of the time, but there will be times when CE is the better option, I speak from experience.

I'm glad you've liked some of my ideas, but I think ultimately you want to do something slightly different than what I set out to try. Absolutely nothing wrong with THAT!

[Dark-Star]

I think ultimately you want to do something slightly different than what I set out to try. Absolutely nothing wrong with THAT!


That might be true.

I have a dwarf version of this at cap that went full DPS first and ac as an after thought. He is an animal.

On paper I have a version very similar to this one, both halfling and wf, and perhaps I have significantly different enough goals to stop posting in yours.

Good luck with the build!

[Thanimal]

On paper I have a version very similar to this one, both halfling and wf, and perhaps I have significantly different enough goals to stop posting in yours.

No no! Don't to THAT! Your feedback continues to be extremely interesting. And the differences in direction still overlap greatly, meaning that a majority of your ideas and experience will still apply. Furthermore, I don't think I'm actually going to build this, because I'm leveling too many other projects right now.

I expect many readers will be more interested in your direction than mine.

I only intended to point out that there are many tweaks possible to alter the build, for a slightly different set of goals, whereas I'm only likely to directly incorporate near-strict improvements (such as TWD) into the OP.

[FuzzyDeath]

I'm intrigued by this build Thanimal...

By any chance could you put this into a character planner???? I would love to see the process of this.

[Thanimal]

I'm intrigued by this build Thanimal...

By any chance could you put this into a character planner???? I would love to see the process of this.

Do you mean the sequence of levels and feats? Honestly I don't really like the character planners, but I'd be happy to try to provide whatever information you are looking for.

If that's what you mean, I didn't publish that (yet) because there seem to be an amazing number of reasonable alternatives. I *think* my favorite one is to sprinkle Rogue levels around so that the skills always remain "passable," and to plan to fight with Scimitar and shield until somewhere around level 7-9. But it's also intriguing to heavily front-load the Fighter levels, show as a Fighter until near the end-game, and not even pretend to have Rogue skills until very high levels. The main advantage of that approach is getting more of the feats earlier in the build.

The only sure things seem to be Rogue at 1, and Monk levels at 7 (or later) and 13 (or later) -- all due to skill point management.

But no matter how you slice it, this build "comes together" late -- you really need 8 levels of Rogue (IUD), 6 Fighter (Defender) and 1 Monk (WIS AC) to even see the fundamental features.

[FuzzyDeath]

ah..ok

I think I'm visualizing it a little better now... cool

thanks!!!!!!

[Thanimal]

UPDATE!

For a few reasons, this build has become obsolete before it even became legal. Now that we know Monk 2's AC will only apply if centered, 13/6/1 becomes the obvious choice. In addition, Dark-Star now offers a very compelling build that uses Paladin Defender instead of Fighter Defender that I think most folks will like better:

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=194791

And even if you prefer Fighter (and personally I'm still on the fence), his stats appears to be far better tuned to the power-gaming audience. So go check it out!

[krud]

I have a human build that's fairly close. Currently 8rog/6ftr/2pal --> 12/6/2 at lvl20. Gonna go acrobatII, and possibly kensai if I can fit it in. Very fun build. He was planned before monk was released. I maxxed bluff for Improved feint (doh!). The bluff skill is useless, but if I could do it over I could easily have max intimidate instead. I've planned out an intimitank version, and it works out very well. Human is nice for the versatility, skill points and the extra feat. It helps keep him at max in all rogue abilities.

I'd have to agree with Dark Star about crippling strike. Also, remember that each strike reduces str by 2, which is the same as getting a +1AC for every strike you land. On top of that if you are using a radiance weapons, the blindness gives you the equivalent of +4AC. Giving up 1AC by swapping out dodge isn't so bad.

If you are going to be a str rogue try to fit in stunning blow, especially since you can get the WF tactics enhancements for it. Autocrit and autosneak attack is nice.

[Dark-Star]

I'd have to agree with Dark Star about crippling strike. Also, remember that each strike reduces str by 2, which is the same as getting a +1AC for every strike you land. On top of that if you are using a radiance weapons, the blindness gives you the equivalent of +4AC. Giving up 1AC by swapping out dodge isn't so bad.

Not only +1 ac per strike, but +1 dr as wel as the mob's damage is sequentially decreased with each 2 points of strength you eliminate.


UPDATE!

For a few reasons, this build has become obsolete before it even became legal. Now that we know Monk 2's AC will only apply if centered, 13/6/1 becomes the obvious choice. In addition, Dark-Star now offers a very compelling build that uses Paladin Defender instead of Fighter Defender that I think most folks will like better:

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=194791

And even if you prefer Fighter (and personally I'm still on the fence), his stats appears to be far better tuned to the power-gaming audience. So go check it out!

Thank you for the recognition!