Idea: More starter zones (lv1-2) like Korthos [Archive]

hazzazz

05-11-2009, 01:04 PM

More areas the size of korthos for starting characters based on their class/race would be fantastic, and bring some much needed variety to making a new character, some more level 3-5 missions in and around stormreach harbour and the market place would also bring more variety to play at low levels.

Classes/Races that start here : All warforged , Fighters and Wizards
Start location: Cannith Warboat that went through a time rift into the future (our present) off the coast of the restless isles.
Missions involve warboat doing military raids not knowing the war is over.

Classes/Races that start here : All high elves + Barbarians, Rangers , (and druids when they come) (Nature based)
Start location : Island heavily forested in the restless isles , wild.. or remote corner of xendrik
Missions involve investigating and cleansing corruption on the island, talking with local druids. calming animals etc Fighting invading wild- orcs.

Classes/Races that start here : All drow + Bards, Sorcerors, Rogues (Charisma characters + Mostly Chaotic inclination )
Start location: Island near 3-barrel cove for scoundrels has a cave into the khyber where a lot of drow come up to trade.
Missions involve stealing items, vandalism, general chaos and mayhem and plenty of fun.

Classes/Races that start here : Paladin, Monk, Clerics (Wisdom characters + Mostly Lawful characters)
Start location: Monastery to sovereign host on an island. in the restless isles.
Missions involve Guarding protecting others, healing, bringing criminals to justice.

Angelus_dead

05-11-2009, 01:14 PM

More areas the size of korthos for starting characters based on their class/race would be fantastic
What makes you think that?

much needed variety to making a new character
What makes you think that?

more variety to play at low levels.
Why would that be desired?

secondchance

05-11-2009, 01:18 PM

Sirea

05-11-2009, 01:26 PM

As it is a lot of quests in the 2-6 range get passed over in favor of doing quests/chains like STK, TR, Stormcleave, Gwylan's, Tear of D, and Delera's.

So you want them to make more content that's just going to be wasted, when people just go do the Durk's/Butcher's/Info/Ringleader/ 3x loop, do WW once, get lvl 3, and kiss the Harbor goodbye?

No thanks.

More high-level content please.

wamjratl1

05-11-2009, 01:26 PM

Hi hazzazz and Welcome to the Game!

If you have a flame-retardent suit, you may want to put it on for the responses you may get...

Just some background on the game: the whole Korthos setting is pretty new to the game and while it is cool, many (if nor most) players saw it as unnecssary since it's the end-game high-level point where the content is really lacking. It's so quick and relatively easy to get to level 4 or 5 in this game (a day or two without really trying) that new beginning level content would be just silly. Outrageous even. Once you have played the game a while (which I hope you stick around to do) you may realize how silly your request might seem.

Your ideas for quests are pretty cool, but you will realize (once you roll several different types of characters) that the same quest can be very different for each class, so new low-level content isn't that necessary an idea. If we had oodles and oodles of high-level stuff to run (we don't), a few new low and mid-level quests would be acceptable to the gen-pop but again, most players at this point need something beyond lvls 1-5 as they have rolled all the new characters they can and only have future high-lvl content to keep them entertained.

I think there is plenty of low-level stuff to keep busy through those levels, maybe you just haven't found it all yet.

hazzazz

05-13-2009, 10:29 AM

ArkoHighStar

05-13-2009, 10:39 AM

wamjratl1

05-13-2009, 11:00 AM

3 barrel cove is a large level 3-9 area with at least 5 quests, Tangleroot Gorge is a lvl 2 area with a large quest chain and and a smaller outdoor area. Cerulean Hills is an outdoor area , it has no quests but is nice xp and is easy to get all explorere and a bunch of slayer/rares. The harbor area has at least 20 quests form lvl 2-4, including a rather large outdoor quest called Irestone Inlet for lvl 4. Searing Heights is a lvl 4 area again it has no quests but some nice xp and explorer points.

hazzazz, to (I think) help clarify Arko's point (the same point I tried to make earlier): There is already a ton of low-level questing to do to level your characters. Yes, your point that many people do only the best XP quests and zerg through them just to level is very valid; Lot's of peeps do this. But even the ones' who don't power-level still skip plenty of quests and areas, maybe without realizing it, as they level up. There are a ton of low-level questing options currently in the game. Yes, you currently have to start your first character in Korthos but after that, it is wide open. It's all centered around Stormreach because that's the concept of them game (currently) but that doesn't mean you have to do the same quests on each character just to level. Again, a lot of us just maximize the XP as we lvl and only do the major XP chains, etc. but that certainly doesn't mean it's the only way to do it. (me personally, I'm a mix between the two - I do like to maximize XP but like to do the odd "for fun" quests now and again and smell the roses along the way).

Between Korthos, the Harbor, the various standalone Marketplace quests, and the places that Arko mentioned (not to mention the 4 Dragonmarked Houses), there are tons of leveling options in the game. Sadly, you are correct, many of them get ignored.

Wizzly_Bear

05-13-2009, 11:14 AM

die

05-13-2009, 11:34 AM

i love the energy u put into this post, i my self would love too see any new content. :)

Jay203

05-13-2009, 11:35 AM

hazz
i think you've been affected by WoW too much
they threw in the different starting area for people to solo in the beginning. in fact, most of the contents in WoW can be solo'ed
DDO, however, isn't like that, we lvl a lot faster than WoW and cap faster, we focus on group play and speedy pace.

now let's take a REAL look at these "variety" of quests WoW offers.
sure, you start in different areas, this offers:
1) new landscape to look at, different types of enemy to fight
2) different story
however, it also means:
1) you're more secluded from the majority of your players, you're more secluded
2) you have different NPCs telling you to collect X-amount of this and that

rather than masking the repetition with flowers, DDO choose to cut short on repetition and try to get you to CHOICES faster, you have the korthos that you have to do, and then ww to access marketplace, then you're released to do any of those quests that you're able to handle
honestly, would you want to be secluded more at lower lvl more than you currently are? DDO isn't exactly solo-friendly for newbies :p

Vorn

05-13-2009, 11:39 AM

A long time ago in the forums, I think when MysticTheurge was still about, we roughed out at least a few quests for areas such as Searing Heights, Cerulean Hills, and something else in TR. Nothing ever came of it though, to my knowledge.

Fluffy_the_Goth

05-13-2009, 11:39 AM

Theres OODLES of build options in ddo from what I can see.. many MANY different ways to play that puts WOW to shame.

No, only ranger/monks or cleric/monks or wf casters.. If youre' not one of those you should reroll

lord_of_rage

05-13-2009, 11:59 AM

Forums are all about that giving opinions, and anyone who's been on them expects vultures waiting in the wings to voice their own over somebody else's opinions, i'm right and you're wrong sort of attitude. We all expect that, and we get that trolls with flamethrowers. Except these trolls dont die to fire.. they sort of just get more enraged and more violent to your person.

As a new player, I compare this to wow, it's an easy comparison. Wow has a HUGE amount of early content, multiple start areas and although the quests are superficial in design in comparison to ddo, they have the edge in variety. You can start in about 6 different areas all with their own quests (another 2 more if you consider the expansion races).

people replaying their characters with new builds might be like the majority and just do XP quests, zerg it , rush it just to get them as high as they can as soon as possible. but not all want that.. maybe they want a full experience.
You're right in one respect it does take the same time to make low level stuff as high.. you're getting a bunch of that in mod 9 anyway.. but thats beside the point. Why are you so leveling orientated anyway? do you only want to play one character?
Theres OODLES of build options in ddo from what I can see.. many MANY different ways to play that puts WOW to shame. So there should be MORE reasons for having more low level content not less..

I do commiserate with players who want to keep leveling their favorite high level toon, but content is content at any level. You can take your level MAX guy and zerg him through the low level mission because it's new and not enjoy it because you're way overpowered for it. or you can take a low level guy through it at the level it's supposed to be played at and enjoy it completely as it was meant to be, the choice is yours.
It's your gameplay time..

I have to agree with what others have stated. There is plenty of low lvl quests. If you ran all the korthos quests n/h/e and completed the explorer area you will be very close to if not at lvl3. The quests you describe are wow /war type quests. Simple kill x# of this, fetch that. I challange you to complete every quest other than in inavders in korthos and the harbor n/h/e and tell us what level you reach. There are plenty of low lvl quests all over the game that just dont get run much. Three barrel is a great example. The what we would benifit from is more 9-11 content and much more high end content. I roll lowbies quite a bit because once I cap toons all there is to do is loot run, raid, to perfect you toons.

Alot of us toss some gear to our lowbies then "zerg" them through the low lvl content.

Thrudh

05-13-2009, 12:05 PM

No, only ranger/monks or cleric/monks or wf casters.. If youre' not one of those you should reroll

Only if you're a bad player like Fluffy... otherwise, there are dozens of solid interesting fun combos to play with... :)

Jay203

05-13-2009, 12:07 PM

just as add-ons
i'd prefer to have the quest progression split wider apart
rather than having them converge together like WoW

ideally:

tier 1 quests
tier 2 quests tier 2 quests
tier 3 quest tier 3 quests tier 3 quests tier 3 quests

WoW progression:

Tier 1 quests Tier 1 quests Tier 1 quests Tier 1 quests
tier 2 quests tier 2 quests
tier 3 quests

in other words, i prefer to have increasing variety as we progress rather than start with a lot and end with little

Fluffy_the_Goth

05-13-2009, 12:24 PM

Only if you're a bad player like Fluffy... otherwise, there are dozens of solid interesting fun combos to play with... :)

Cold hearted, you struck me at my core of suckyness, I think I may go sulk now in a corner, will you hold me?

hazzazz

05-13-2009, 10:24 PM

The thing is though if you're trying to attract new players to the game, it's the stuff they see at the early part of the game that colours their whole impression, it's why korthos itself was made as it is.
It has npc's with gameplay advice, but I think it lost a little by not having some class orientated stuff to begin with to show people how their class works. Which is why I suggested start areas based on class with a little storyline to hook them together. Dont need 6-8 start areas like wow has... (for storyline mostly) just 4 like the one I suggested rooted in the lore of eberron that covers all the start choices.

The truth is a lot of the most recently made stuff in ddo is simply better designed because the designers have learnt as they went along. I really like proof is in the poison, the new 3-barrel area.. they've been added fairly recently , they feel like they've had more effort put into them.

Jay:

I agree that that's what wow does starts wide then converges but it doesnt have to be that extreme.. ddo is more like a bulb. It has 1 startpoint, then spreads out a bit, then come back to very few at the very highest levels again.

For me, ideally it'd be more box shaped.

:
tier 1 quests tier 1 quests tier 1 quests tier1 quests
tier 2 quests tier 2 quests tier 2 quests
tier 3 quest tier 3 quests tier 3 quests

Zai

05-24-2009, 12:14 PM

There's a reason why WoW has so many starting areas (and so many players). When people start playing a game they don't know what class suits them best, or how to build it right, they pick one and try it out for a while, then try another, and another. Eventually people pick their character to stick with and go through the mid-high level content with it. With WoW you can pick a different race (or move to a different starting area) and get a whole new set of quests to play through as you try your new class. This keeps the game fresh and keeps people playing until they find their class. I think what DDO has is flawed, I'm on my third character and I'm already sick of Korthos and the Harbor. I don't know what character I want to play most and I'm already bored with the game because I'm doing the same quests over and over.

I fully support something like the OP's idea.

Angelus_dead

05-24-2009, 12:31 PM

There's a reason why WoW has so many starting areas (and so many players). When people start playing a game they don't know what class suits them best, or how to build it right, they pick one and try it out for a while, then try another, and another. Eventually people pick their character to stick with and go through the mid-high level content with it. With WoW you can pick a different race (or move to a different starting area) and get a whole new set of quests to play through as you try your new class.
Those traits have very little to do with WOW's success.

For someone who stays actively subscribed for very long, time spent in segregated lowbie zones accounts for only a tiny fraction of the game experience.

BlackSteel

05-24-2009, 12:41 PM

theres already a large assortment of low level quests for players, especially new players. Running most of it on solo/norm can easily take you out of the harbor.

Challenging short quests would be much better served at lvl cap. Little exp, and maybe one end chest that has a really low chance of dropping some named loot and you're set.

What I miss is the 5 - 10 minute quests that proliferate the harbor and market being largely extinct from higher levels. And I'm not talking zerg fests here, b/c you can zerg the harbor stuff in 1-2 minutes, and some of the higher stuff in < 10 as well.

Zai

05-24-2009, 04:11 PM

Those traits have very little to do with WOW's success.

For someone who stays actively subscribed for very long, time spent in segregated lowbie zones accounts for only a tiny fraction of the game experience.

Actually it has a lot to do with it. WoW is successful because it's an easy game to get into. People like the trial (hint: not many people get out of the 1-20 zones during a trial) and buy the game, play for a few months, tell their friends about it, then eventually quit once they get tired of the boring end game grind. Most WoW players have been playing less than a year, which is why it's still a best seller but more or less at a stabilized subscription number.

time spent in segregated lowbie zones accounts for only a tiny fraction of the game experience.

Content is content. You'll go through it at the same speed whether it's level 1-3 content or level 16 content. So your argument there really makes no sense.

No matter what kind of resources a company has, it's impossible to provided unlimited content. There's a reason it's called end game. It's the end, you've finished with the meat of the game, all you get are a few bones until the cap is raised. That's how MMOs work.

Angelus_dead

05-24-2009, 04:42 PM

Actually it has a lot to do with it. WoW is successful because it's an easy game to get into.
A factor to which the variety of starting quests is scarcely relevant. The real reason WOW is easier to start than DDO is that players aren't faced with any choices of irreversible consequence.

Content is content. You'll go through it at the same speed whether it's level 1-3 content or level 16 content. So your argument there really makes no sense.
[nom]

Arianrhod

05-24-2009, 05:51 PM

Multiple low level starter areas would be fun. There should be a new starter zone with enough quests to get to level 4 or 5, and a new race to start there, with each expansion....but wait, there haven't been any expansions ;)

Zai

05-25-2009, 02:10 AM

A factor to which the variety of starting quests is scarcely relevant. The real reason WOW is easier to start than DDO is that players aren't faced with any choices of irreversible consequence.

You mean like... what class to play? Spending 10-15 levels on a class you end up not liking is a pretty big "irreversible consequence." The only option is starting over, and WoW makes that easy by having a fresh set of content ready for you.

nom

Five hours of level 1 content = Five hours of level 16 content. [nom]

pumbilly

05-25-2009, 06:24 AM

Absolutely zai, I completely agree, [I dont like personal attacks]

Thankfully the dev's understand the whole picture, you work on all ends, you put most of your effort into the upper end where most of your oldest players are at.. but you still work on makeing the overall game better, improving stuff at the low/middle end that people do play again when they try new builds.

This game is heavy on the customization class wise, there are many many options, and to try them all you have to start again. Maybe some players are so bored that they'll zerg through the early stuff just to get capped as soon as possible.
well if there were 5 starter areas.. maybe it wouldnt be so boring.. at least UNTIL you finished the starter area and were put back in stormreach main. More quests in the 4-5 zone added in with the new starter areas would be a great boost to game replayability.
I dont know.. I dont find running shroud umpteen times to exactly be the best fun either.

RigorAdar

05-25-2009, 11:03 AM

You mean like... what class to play? Spending 10-15 levels on a class you end up not liking is a pretty big "irreversible consequence." The only option is starting over, and WoW makes that easy by having a fresh set of content ready for you.

Translation:

Five hours of level 1 content = Five hours of level 16 content. It's common sense, go find some.

I have to disagree with you here. 5 hours of low level content that never gets played is not the same as 5 hours of end game content that gets repeated ad nauseum.

There is plenty of low level content to level already, adding more is just for flavor. With the level cap raising there is a much more pressing need for end game content. Not to mention the fact that we have been stuck with nothing new for months.

The idea for class/race segregated starter content is an idea i can get behind if the Dev's ever drop an expansion pack, or have a real marketing push with boxes on the shelves. Too much time has been lost to creating/revamping low and mid level quests that few ever run anyways.

Zai

05-25-2009, 11:30 AM

Why would it never get played? The vast majority of characters created never make it to the cap, all of them have to do low level content. Far more people are going to see and experience 5 hours of low level content than 5 hours of content added for characters at the cap decked out in full raid gear. It's like the first Naxx in WoW, an end game raid instance that literally less than 1% of players ever stepped into. If devs continuously add tiers to end game for the vocal minority of "hardcore" players that want it, they will quickly get to the point where they are making content for a tiny fraction of their playerbase. It's even less important in a game with a constantly increasing level cap, where all of that content becomes obsolete as soon as the cap rises.

spifflove

05-25-2009, 11:40 AM

Forums are all about that giving opinions, and anyone who's been on them expects vultures waiting in the wings to voice their own over somebody else's opinions, i'm right and you're wrong sort of attitude. We all expect that, and we get that trolls with flamethrowers. Except these trolls dont die to fire.. they sort of just get more enraged and more violent to your person.

As a new player, I compare this to wow, it's an easy comparison. Wow has a HUGE amount of early content, multiple start areas and although the quests are superficial in design in comparison to ddo, they have the edge in variety. You can start in about 6 different areas all with their own quests (another 2 more if you consider the expansion races).

people replaying their characters with new builds might be like the majority and just do XP quests, zerg it , rush it just to get them as high as they can as soon as possible. but not all want that.. maybe they want a full experience.
You're right in one respect it does take the same time to make low level stuff as high.. you're getting a bunch of that in mod 9 anyway.. but thats beside the point. Why are you so leveling orientated anyway? do you only want to play one character?
Theres OODLES of build options in ddo from what I can see.. many MANY different ways to play that puts WOW to shame. So there should be MORE reasons for having more low level content not less..

I do commiserate with players who want to keep leveling their favorite high level toon, but content is content at any level. You can take your level MAX guy and zerg him through the low level mission because it's new and not enjoy it because you're way overpowered for it. or you can take a low level guy through it at the level it's supposed to be played at and enjoy it completely as it was meant to be, the choice is yours.
It's your gameplay time..

Well spoken.

Of course there should be more end game content. A random generated 50 level tower with raid loot at the top (one in 6 chance) would solve this problem. If you die you get booted from the tower and it resets.

Angelus_dead

05-25-2009, 12:08 PM

Why would it never get played? The vast majority of characters created never make it to the cap, all of them have to do low level content. Far more people are going to see and experience 5 hours of low level content than 5 hours of content added for characters at the cap decked out in full raid gear.
[I disagree]

It's like the first Naxx in WoW, an end game raid instance that literally less than 1% of players ever stepped into.
No, it's nothing like that at all.

Why are you attempting to state facts about a subject you have obviously never experienced?

If devs continuously add tiers to end game for the vocal minority of "hardcore" players that want it, they will quickly get to the point where they are making content for a tiny fraction of their playerbase.
That statement has absolutely no relationship (or even slightly resemblance) to anything that's ever happened in DDO.

Borror0

05-25-2009, 01:43 PM

nom
Wow. That is fail.

One does not (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=183372) need to look very far to find Angelus_dead talking about improving (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=167012) the new players' experience.

Kraldor

05-25-2009, 02:39 PM

The idea is nice, but it won't work for a game like this. For one, making that many different kinds of quests just for low-levels would be a large chuck of dev resources that can't be spared. Also, splitting up the lowbie levels isn't such a great idea. You don't have a lot of players to begin with, so splitting that small number into an even smaller number will make grouping harder. Grouping is the real essence of DDO, and forcing players into smaller niches by race/class just kills it.

Angelus_dead

05-25-2009, 02:48 PM

For one, making that many different kinds of quests just for low-levels would be a large chuck of dev resources that can't be spared.
Furthermore, it's incorrect to assume that just because a person has created one CLASS X RACE combination he'll never make another.

That's true in many games, because one Orc Shaman is as good as another, but it's emphatically not the case in DDO, where one kind of Warforged Wizard can be seriously and permanently distinct from another build.

Adding new low-level quests is one thing... but adding new quests, and then segregating them by character type so that not everyone gets the opportunity to play them? That's bad.

pumbilly

05-26-2009, 01:20 AM

Furthermore, it's incorrect to assume that just because a person has created one CLASS X RACE combination he'll never make another.
That's true in many games, because one Orc Shaman is as good as another, but it's emphatically not the case in DDO, where one kind of Warforged Wizard can be seriously and permanently distinct from another build.

I agree with that one, lots of options lots of choices, those are good things.

Adding new low-level quests is one thing... but adding new quests, and then segregating them by character type so that not everyone gets the opportunity to play them? That's bad.

Everyone does have the opportunity to play them, those areas above are storyline driven. You just make a character type that fits in with the starter area because it makes sense to. They're also very early in the game so you dont have to play for 10 levels before you get the chance to play that "segregated" quest.

Sure there is a place for other characters outside the scope of the design, but the average paladin isnt going to be helping raid a merchants bank for some shifty chaotic sneak, unless the story is carefully designed to open a hole for that.

It's like that purge of the heretics, funny as it is, all characters can go in there regardless, it's just another quest, you're doing it for the flame right? what if your character is a cleric of the sovereign host? why are you participating? Your brother dragged you down there and you're looking after him?

I dont cut down people's suggestions for the record angelus, nor do I assume I know it all or that my point of view is the only one with validity out there.
EVERYONE wants new content wherever it may be, theres a place in the game for all sorts of players, and though they often dont get along because of their own perspectives, they usually arent forced to play together and put up with a style of play they find repulsive.

I want positive constructive criticism, people offering alternatives or modification to suggestions they dont like, not people blasting away with their blinkers on, venting some frustration with a harsh diatribe and blaming people who arent responsible for somehow causing the problem whose source lies elsewhere.

Borror0

05-26-2009, 01:44 AM

Everyone does have the opportunity to play them, those areas above are storyline driven.
It seems quite obvious to me that it is a bad idea, but since you disagree I'll list a few reasons:

1. In LOTRO, each race has a different starting area and a different storyline to advance. If two players want to roll characters and play together, they'll have to advance different storyline and have to play in different zones if they do not select the same race (and classes being race restricted makes this worse).

Segregating players based on race or class will thus lead to situations where players will either have to not play together or have restricted character choice.

2. If there are any content issue at lower levels, it is that the content is either underused or overused. However, there is certainly no lack of quest at lower levels. There is a total of twenty six level 2 quests, while there are no level 15 quests and only five level 16 quests. Clearly, the higher level suffer much more a lack of content and that is there that the attention should be focused.

If you believed there are too little quest ran at lower levels, the solution is to tweak those quests so that they are more fun (some quests are unpopular because they are boring to most), to adjust their quest level to really reflect the challenge or to balance the XP reward as an incentive for veterans to run those.

3. Separating players on race or class serves as a poor introduction to new players as they get to play with a much smaller sample of character than what they will be exposed to when they gain a few levels.

Angelus_dead

05-26-2009, 01:50 AM

1. In LOTRO, each race has a different starting area and a different storyline to advance. If two players want to roll characters and play together, they'll have to advance different storyline and have to play in different zones if they do not select the same race (and classes being race restricted makes this worse).

Segregating players based on race or class will thus lead to situations where players will either have to not play together or have restricted character choice.
However, it's not quite as bad in a game like LOTRO (or WOW), because they offer full respecs of every character decision besides class and race. That means that once you've leveled a Hobbit Burglar or whatever, you will never ever need to make another one. If you build another character it'll naturally differ in either race or class, so it comes from a different starting area instead of repeating one.

Obviously that's not true in DDO, where it's entirely possible someone will create a Halfling Rogue again and again.

3. Separating players on race or class serves as a poor introduction to new players as they get to play with a much smaller sample of character than what they will be exposed to when they gain a few levels.
That is less of a problem for a game like WOW, whose servers are known to repeatedly struggle against overcrowding. But as DDO has fewer users, anything that obstructs players from interacting with each other is more serious.

Angelus_dead

05-26-2009, 02:06 AM

If there is a lack of content, it is past level 12, and that is observable (http://ddo.enterwiki.net/page/Quests_by_level), but if someone disagrees the likelihood of that person realizing his mistake through an argument is close to none. Better let that person come to that realization later on when he experiences higher levels and see how empty of content they are.
More specifically, he is probably referring to the following exchange:

Content is content. You'll go through it at the same speed whether it's level 1-3 content or level 16 content. So your argument there really makes no sense.

You are so completely wrong that I won't bother to attempt to explain anything to you.

As you can see, what happened there is someone made a statement about game design theory that is completely and tremendously wrong. It's a very basic and fundamental point, and if someone can't understand how wrong it is then there is little reason to waste time discussing that topic with him.

Additionally, it would take an organized and dedicated effort to teach a person why a claim like "Content is content" is so far wrong. Being as I saw no reason to spend hours of effort and days of attention teaching that subject, I informed him that I would not do so.

Angelus_dead

05-26-2009, 02:20 AM

Additionally, it would take an organized and dedicated effort to teach a person why a claim like "Content is content" is so far wrong. Being as I saw no reason to spend hours of effort and days of attention teaching that subject, I informed him that I would not do so.
I see that someone else did attempt to explain it:

I have to disagree with you here. 5 hours of low level content that never gets played is not the same as 5 hours of end game content that gets repeated ad nauseum.

There is plenty of low level content to level already, adding more is just for flavor. With the level cap raising there is a much more pressing need for end game content. Not to mention the fact that we have been stuck with nothing new for months.
But it didn't work:

Why would it never get played? The vast majority of characters created never make it to the cap, all of them have to do low level content. Far more people are going to see and experience 5 hours of low level content than 5 hours of content added for characters at the cap decked out in full raid gear.
This suggests my guess was correct and that to teach that guy the principles of endgame content would be a long-term job, if it were even possible at all. And since teaching is more difficult when the students don't respect you, why put in the effort? Why do a lot of work to change someone's mind, when you won't get anything for it?

I can find something more productive to do with that time.

rustbucky

05-26-2009, 05:40 AM

There's no doubt the game changes as it goes on, what's important and works early on often changes. The game focus changes also.

Early level stuff is usually to teach a player how to play, but that's also assuming they wont be coming back here once they know the game. Hence the ability to skip the tutorial I saw when I made another character after finishing the korthos area.

Even with ONE start area like korthos, I didn't see many people around at all so I doubt it would be much different with 5 or 6 choices of start area.
It certainly wasn't easy to link up with other people except via the create a group part of the social panel.
I saw no way of seeing a list of even who was in my area. As a trial person I've been unable to send tells to anyone. That's probably to stop the gold farmers that may abuse that with random advertising but it certainly didn't make things easier.

Is everything you need to know to play in the tutorial? I don't know, I played it but it didn't even teach basic stuff about how to drag skills/feats from those parts of the character sheet to the quickbar where they can be easily used that's something another player told me. Those are the fundamental mistakes I see missing from the tutorial. It assumes that the player has played other games like it before, maybe that's not a bad assumption you be the judge.

I'm sure the Op just wanted to see some improvements, turbine are the only ones who have the power to do that.

Aesop

05-26-2009, 06:12 AM

While I would not MIND seeing a couple of possible starting locations, it is not needed curretly.

I also would perfer a CHOICE of starting locations instead of being forced there by race/class choices.

Honestly though it is more important at this time to fill out the game. If you ever get a chance to look at the number of high level characters vs low level characters on line at a given time, I think you'll see that more people are playing high level characters.

We're getting level 20 now and we really need the quests in the upper tier to be more robust. The problem though is that most people once they hit 9-10 will jump straihgt to Gianthold and power level to about 13-14 then jump to the Vale and the Shroud... its all such a linear path. However that's part of the problem there is that the items you can get in the shroud are so good... you'd need something comparable to make a successful Mod. Anyway I'm late for wotrk catch ya on the flip side.

Aesop

rustbucky

05-26-2009, 06:43 AM

In a perfect world there would be enough content that you only ever need run everything once, never needing to run them again at a different difficulty level. Never need to farm or repeat anything and still be finding new stuff after 3 years but that just cant be the case.
There isn't infinite content, it isn't generated. How much fun would it be if it was?

Seeing as though repetition IS part of the game though, some variance in the quests themselves between runs, monster locations, trap box locations, types or even the spell lists of casters so that there's more unpredictability in them might go a long way to making the repetitions a little less taxing. Then there might not be such a pressing need for new content, people would be more content with what there was if there was more enjoyment in it.

Arianrhod

05-26-2009, 07:13 AM

It would be nice to have different starting areas, with different story arcs. There are a few problems with implementing such a thing, however, and they would need to be solved before it would be a good idea.

For one thing, currently new players start in Korthos, and commonly seem to have the impression that "the game is deserted". I'm afraid splitting them up further into different starting areas would only exacerbate this problem. To implement multiple starting areas without making things worse for new players trying to find the "community", it might well be necessary to put everyone in one place by default, and amake people choos specifically if they want to go to a different area instead. This would kind of mess with the idea of race- or class-specific starter areas.

As for endgame content being more important that low-level stuff....we'll just have to agree to disagree on that one. There are players who've been playing 3 years and never touched a raid, or any quest over 13th level. Different players have different preferences from a game, and adding more for one group doesn't necessarily detract from the rest (at least, I try not to complain about the various mods...at least half of them, it seems...that have added nothing I had any interest in - just raids, high level quests/explorer areas and the like)

Angelus_dead

05-26-2009, 07:30 AM

It would be nice to have different starting areas, with different story arcs.
Why do you think so?

For one thing, currently new players start in Korthos, and commonly seem to have the impression that "the game is deserted". I'm afraid splitting them up further into different starting areas would only exacerbate this problem.
It would particularly disrupt it whenever a group of friends want to create characters at the same time and immediately begin playing together, as they almost certainly won't all pick the same class.

As for endgame content being more important that low-level stuff....we'll just have to agree to disagree on that one. There are players who've been playing 3 years and never touched a raid, or any quest over 13th level. Different players have different preferences from a game
Those players who have no yet visited all the game's content do not need more, because they already have more if they simply decide to walk over and go there.

that have added nothing I had any interest in - just raids, high level quests/explorer areas and the like)
Why do you say a high-level quest is less interesting than low-level? What's all that different about them, aside from the fact that all characters can eventually play high-level quests, but some are essentially locked-out from experiencing low-level content?

Arianrhod

05-26-2009, 07:48 AM

Why do you say a high-level quest is less interesting than low-level? What's all that different about them, aside from the fact that all characters can eventually play high-level quests, but some are essentially locked-out from experiencing low-level content?

Different people like different things. Some like raids & "endgame" content, some don't. Some just leave and move on to a different game when there's nothing left but "endgame" content that doesn't interest them.

Angelus_dead

05-26-2009, 07:57 AM

Different people like different things.
What is noticeably different about Enter The Kobold compared to Grey Moon Waning that makes you not like it?

Fluffy_the_Goth

05-26-2009, 07:58 AM

Why do you say a high-level quest is less interesting than low-level? What's all that different about them, aside from the fact that all characters can eventually play high-level quests, but some are essentially locked-out from experiencing low-level content?

Double quoted with the above post for fun!

I say the difference is low level doesn't give you any challenge at all maybe? Not that there are any real challenges in this game left anymore but when ever they release mod 13 we may feel challenged. And that's what we want, not a brisk walk in the park of bashing a skelly for 6 damage and it dies.

shores11

05-26-2009, 08:00 AM

hazz...you can either accept what us old bags here are saying or not. personally ive been here for over 2 years, and have played with a multitude of different people. i can tell you definitively that there is too much low-level content as is, not enough mid-level, and not nearly enough high level content. most quests dont get used by the majority of the population, or if they do its for favor once theyre already capped.

to demonstrate this to yourself...make a new character. run every quest on elite starting with the level 1s, then 2s, etc. you will find yourself quickly outlevelling the content bc there is too much of it relative to your level and xp required to level. eventually (~ lvl 8 iirc) you will even out, and then fall rapidly behind the level of the quests. iirc, this method will yield you doing level 19 quests (lvl 17 +2 (elite)) and only being level 13 or 14.

I agree with Hazzazz, content is content. The more of it and the more variety is always a good thing at any level. I disagree that there is too much low level content that is simply not true. I will agree that more mid-level and hi-level content is needed but this game just needs more content period.

Other posts opposing the OP seem to think they have the inside track on the pulse of the population. Well I have been playing for over 3 years now and everytime I roll a new character I run every single quest in Korthos, Harbor and Marketplace. I am not a zerger and enjoy the game for the questing not the leveling and loot although that comes with the questing which is good.

Devs please spend more time on content and atmosphere to the game at all levels. Its the zergers that skip everything just for the larger XP runs and get to maximum level in 2 to 3 weeks and then complain there isn't enough content, why because they skipped all of the content.

Fluffy_the_Goth

05-26-2009, 08:06 AM

Devs please spend more time on content and atmosphere to the game at all levels. Its the zergers that skip everything just for the larger XP runs and get to maximum level in 2 to 3 weeks and then complain there isn't enough content, why because they skipped all of the content.[/COLOR]

I'm one of those zergers that skips everything, but then I go back for favor, 6 out of 11 toons have close to every quest completed to elite.

Plus they already said they were doing something else to TBC somewhere too, if Korthos wasn't a big enough bump to your lowbie content. (Korthos/Harbor quests) and you need more things to go from level 1-2 from.. I dunno I guess we're at a crossroads, I prefer to actually have a character, not a level 1 with 18 ac a +6 to hit and 28 hp.

shores11

05-26-2009, 08:10 AM

I say the difference is low level doesn't give you any challenge at all maybe? Not that there are any real challenges in this game left anymore but when ever they release mod 13 we may feel challenged. And that's what we want, not a brisk walk in the park of bashing a skelly for 6 damage and it dies.

Ah Goth, you have hit the nail on the head. The way the game is setup now is exactly what the larger population wants. Walk/run through quests, kill everything in one or two swings, uber loot, uber leveling. They say they want challenge but they demand vorpals, disruptors, smiters, banishers or super uber radiance or mineral weapons from The Shroud. These are the things that make the game boring just think about it when was the last time any quest at any level was really a challenge. I almost feel sorry for the monsters, drow or any other fow we face. Seriously we walk into a dungeon paralyze them, hold them, command them one shot kill them. What kind of a challenge is this?

We all said we wanted the super +5 kill what ever I want weapons and the prevent me from having any damage at all items. Well you have them and look where we are. This is the world of Eberron the world most of you preferred.

This does not mean that a world in Forgotten Realms (FR) would have been much better if at all. But the nature of FR is not to even have these super uber weapons available to get. Acquiring a +1 or +2 longsword without anything attached to it is considered gold in FR (AD&D version). Why is that, because it was always about the quest I know when I played pen and paper not any of the folks I played with ever really cared about the loot we took. Memories.........

Arianrhod

05-26-2009, 08:10 AM

What is noticeably different about Enter The Kobold compared to Grey Moon Waning that makes you not like it?

Enter the Kobold requires a character over 10th level, Gray moon Waning does not. I (and most of the other D&D players I've spent time with) happen to enjoy the way D&D plays with mid-level characters. The great variety of character design choices in this game allow a single player to have an enjoyable experience with many different characters if they so choose. The sameness of the starter quests, on the other hand, gets dull after a while. Having more paths to take while leveling characters up would be more fun for me than having more raids I don't run. If there were enough low-mid-level content for a player to level up, say, 3 different characters to level 10, running completely differnt quests on each one, and never repeating a quest (all quests on Normal setting), that would probably be enough. After that, the devs could focus on "endgame" till the high level players are completely satiated before making any more low-mid-level stuff. But until then, I, and probably others like me, will keep wanting more low/mid-level content, at least alongside the high level stuff, if not necessarily in lieu of it.

Angelus_dead

05-26-2009, 08:14 AM

I agree with Hazzazz, content is content.
Incorrect.

As a way to prove it's incorrect, look at the consequences of that claim and see if they hold out in reality. If "content is content", that would mean that Enemy Within is about as good as Relic of a Sovereign Past, or Rackham's Trial is about as good as Crucible.

But a little experience with the game after the introduction of each of those bits of content will show that some content simply provides a lot more (and more entertaining) gameplay than others. That should have been obvious, because it's natural that in a complex system different things wouldn't turn out to all be just as good as each other.

Having established that not all content is equally good, you can then ask whether low or high level content is generally better for the game. Start by answering these questions:
1. Can characters go up in level? Can they go down? Even temporarily?
2. Is it fun to delete favorite characters you've played for a while?
3. Is it fun to get new cool stuff?
4. What happens when items from high-level characters pass to lowbies?
5. Is it more fun to play a quest at the intended level, or below it, or above it? What about way above it?
6. As characters get higher level, does advancing each level go faster? Or slower?
7. What are the top several quests that characters have repeated the greatest number of times? How many times does any single character repeat a quest in the 1-5 range?

After collecting those facts, the conclusion should be apparent.

Kerrn_Siff

05-26-2009, 08:17 AM

I also would perfer a CHOICE of starting locations instead of being forced there by race/class choices.

I'd take it a few steps further: What I would love would be in return for a favor level, say 2500 or something, the ability to Easy Button to level 5 upon creation XP wise. We reroll soooo freaking much in this game even if they trippled the lowbie content we would still be just as sick and tired of it in a few weeks as we are now. (WW1-4.. again.. on elite?.. *sigh* sure I have 40 minutes *twitch* brt..*cry*)

The ability to just skip a portion of lower content for senior players would alleviate some of the boredom and whining we are all subject to while still allowing new players to 'smell the roses' while casting their MMs at the umpteenth kobold or practicing their wiffs while using a GA they don't have the skills to use.

Angelus_dead

05-26-2009, 08:17 AM

We all said we wanted the super +5 kill what ever I want weapons and the prevent me from having any damage at all items. Well you have them and look where we are. This is the world of Eberron the world most of you preferred.

This does not mean that a world in Forgotten Realms (FR) would have been much better if at all. But the nature of FR is not to even have these super uber weapons available to get. Acquiring a +1 or +2 longsword without anything attached to it is considered gold in FR (AD&D version).
That is exactly backwards. Acquiring high-powered magic items is enormously easier in FR than in Eberron.

How many spellcasters of level 19+ can you name from Faerun? How many from Eberron?

Arianrhod

05-26-2009, 08:21 AM

That is exactly backwards. Acquiring high-powered magic items is enormously easier in FR than in Eberron.

How many spellcasters of level 19+ can you name from Faerun? How many from Eberron?

Gotta agree with this - Eberron is supposed to have a lot of low-level magic; magic toothbrushes and quills of copying in triplicate. Not high level stuff like +5 vorpal greataxes.

shores11

05-26-2009, 08:23 AM

That is exactly backwards. Acquiring high-powered magic items is enormously easier in FR than in Eberron.

How many spellcasters of level 19+ can you name from Faerun? How many from Eberron?

If your going to quote something like you know what your talking about then know what your talking about. My post had ZERO to do with leveling as we all know that Eberron will eventually get to level 20 and when that happens there will be plenty of level 19+ casters. Wow, way to take the message off track.

I was referring to uber loot only and if you would have read my post then you would have known that. So it is you that are not only backwards but sideways too.

shores11

05-26-2009, 08:24 AM

Gotta agree with this - Eberron is supposed to have a lot of low-level magic; magic toothbrushes and quills of copying in triplicate. Not high level stuff like +5 vorpal greataxes.

Agreed, suppose to have but it does not, it is all about uber loot in DDO.

Angelus_dead

05-26-2009, 08:31 AM

If your going to quote something like you know what your talking about then know what your talking about. My post had ZERO to do with leveling
Where do you think magic items come from?

I was referring to uber loot only and if you would have read my post then you would have known that. So it is you that are not only backwards but sideways too.
Nope. I'm right, and you are completely wrong. The Forgotten Realms setting has tons of magic fortresses and mythals and Thayan spellcircles and dracolich hordes that are bursting with powerful items... just look at the character sheets of the example NPCs. Look at people like Zsas Tam or Elminster or straight-up Mystara.

Deities walk the surface of Faerun as a matter of course- and not just cultist demigods, but the physical embodiment of laws of nature. The wizards there can travel across the planes into Outsider civilizations and even other prime-plane worlds, including both Greyhawk and a version of our own planet Earth (from which some FR realms were supposedly transplanted)

None of that happens in Eberron. The campaign world doesn't even include one arcane caster of 19th level. In the event a PC reaches that point, he will be the most powerful mage the land has known in a century.

It's just not a setting which includes a source of mega-destructo magic items.

Angelus_dead

05-26-2009, 08:34 AM

I'd take it a few steps further: What I would love would be in return for a favor level, say 2500 or something, the ability to Easy Button to level 5 upon creation XP wise.
That was suggested in another active thread (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=2203960#post2203960), as a way to prevent speed-hungry power-levellers from getting into the same groups as people who haven't done the quest much yet. If they clearly want to skip ahead over the easiest part, why not let them?

Kerrn_Siff

05-26-2009, 08:59 AM

That was suggested in another active thread (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=2203960#post2203960), as a way to prevent speed-hungry power-levellers from getting into the same groups as people who haven't done the quest much yet. If they clearly want to skip ahead over the easiest part, why not let them?

****, and here I thought I had an original idea that could contribute to the thread. :)

ah well, carry on.

Murgatroyd

05-26-2009, 09:08 AM

I rerolled a new character a few weeks ago and decided to slowly level him. My experiment was to do as much of the harbor as I could before I moved on.

Doing all of Korthos and the Harbor on N/H/E (minus kobold assault and Cerulean hills) got me to lvl 5.

cardmj1

05-26-2009, 10:36 AM

Borror0

05-26-2009, 10:55 AM

I agree with Hazzazz, content is content.
If content is content that means that:
1. Complaints there are too few quests between level 15 and 20 can be addressed by adding more level 2 quests, which there are already 26.
2. A player will run a level 1 quest more often than he will play an end game quests like the Shroud.
3. A player typically will enjoy running a new quest that is added bellow his character's level.

Neither of the above two statements are true. End game content is the one that gets the most replayability, and while low levels are important to keep attractive, there is typically more content than needed to level up and if there is not it is not a lack of quests but a lack of attractive quests which can be solved without adding new quests.

Content is not content, and pretending other is ridiculous.

The more of it and the more variety is always a good thing at any level.
I think you need to learn what priorities are and then understand that Turbine has finite resources.

Devs please spend more time on content and atmosphere to the game at all levels.
Adding new quests would be about the worse way they could achieve that, as been explained before.

Borror0

05-26-2009, 10:59 AM

They say they want challenge but they demand vorpals, disruptors, smiters, banishers or super uber radiance or mineral weapons from The Shroud.
Powerful weapons do not remove challenge, if you are facing powerful opponents.

As we gain in levels, the monsters we face scale with out gear.

Arianrhod

05-26-2009, 12:10 PM

2. A player will run a level 1 quest more often than he will play an end game quests like the Shroud.

Again, depends on the player. Neither I nor any of my friends has ever run an end game quest like the Shroud. Yet we have all been paying customers for 3 years now, without ever cancelling. Level 1 quests, on the other hand....yeah, we've run those a lot, and would appreciate more variety in them.

I don't particularly want to upset the players who prefer endgame content, but they really aren't the only people playing the game, or paying for it. Asking for a little more variety in low/mid-level content isn't going to break the game. Three-Barrel Cove didn't break the game any more than the Vale did, even though some players play in one area and some in the other and rarely do they have anything to do with one another.

I think it would be a bad idea to force further segregation on players brand-new to the game, as they have enough trouble finding one another as it is. But adding more variety in low/mid-level quests would not be a bad thing. Another series of level 2-7 quests in Searing Heights, for example. It would give players in that range someplace to go other than Tangleroot (which some new players don't even find till they're 5th level or higher, due to the impression that the "House" areas are higher level than the Market), with a differnt flavor from Three-Barrel Cove (pirates are fun and all, but, again, variety...)

Borror0

05-26-2009, 12:29 PM

Again, depends on the player.
When the majority of characters logged on are capable of end game content (13-16) and that even those lower than that (12 and lower) are probably owned by players who spend a great deal of their time at end game, that is irrelevant.

We are not talking about a slight imbalance in content distribution, we are talking about so levels having two to ten times less content than lower levels.

Three-Barrel Cove didn't break the game any more than the Vale did
Breaking the game and being a wasteful use of resources are two different things.

But adding more variety in low/mid-level quests would not be a bad thing.
As said before, the money for those would be better spend in improving the unpopular quests and rebalancing their XP.

(which some new players don't even find till they're 5th level or higher, due to the impression that the "House" areas are higher level than the Market)
That's another way that resources could be better spend: adding directional quests so that players are encouraged to visit areas in the right order.

Nahual

05-26-2009, 12:34 PM

I would put some low level raids

One after Water Works!! lvl 3

One in each of the houses lvl 5 - 7

Then get into Tempest Spine.

I think that would be awesome!! So you can start raiding before lvl 7

Borror0

05-26-2009, 12:43 PM

I would put some low level raids
More likely than not, they would not be worth the effort.

It take a considerable amount of time to put one together and raids are a mess without a leader, most of the time.

Arianrhod

05-26-2009, 01:16 PM

When the majority of characters logged on are capable of end game content (13-16) and that even those lower than that (12 and lower) are probably owned by players who spend a great deal of their time at end game, that is irrelevant.

.

OK, just got done doing a head count on Khyber. First impression - there are a lot more players than I expected in the middle of the day on a weekday :)

Breakdown -
Levels 1-3: 65
Levels 4-7: 58
Levels 8-12: 46
Levels 13-16: 93

While there were more characters in the top category than any of the others, they certainly didn't outnumber the rest all put together. As for the assertion that all (or most) of the players with characters under 13th level could be doing endgame content (are playing alts) and want to (are only playing alts because they're sick of repeating or waiting for their timers to reset); well, there's really no way to count that accurately. You can make assumptions, but that's about it. Based on which characters are logged on, it would seem to me that lower level content would not be a complete waste. You may disagree, but, well...diversity of opinions is a good thing :)

cardmj1

05-26-2009, 01:31 PM

OK, just got done doing a head count on Khyber. First impression - there are a lot more players than I expected in the middle of the day on a weekday :)

Breakdown -
Levels 1-3: 65
Levels 4-7: 58
Levels 8-12: 46
Levels 13-16: 93

While there were more characters in the top category than any of the others, they certainly didn't outnumber the rest all put together. As for the assertion that all (or most) of the players with characters under 13th level could be doing endgame content (are playing alts) and want to (are only playing alts because they're sick of repeating or waiting for their timers to reset); well, there's really no way to count that accurately. You can make assumptions, but that's about it. Based on which characters are logged on, it would seem to me that lower level content would not be a complete waste. You may disagree, but, well...diversity of opinions is a good thing :)

Here it is broken down by current quest level ranges as to why we don't want more low level content....

Low Level Range 1-6 46% of all quest in game
Mid Level Range 7-12 40% of all quest in game
High Level Range 13-18 14% of all quest in game

They are running the lower level quests because there is not enough high level content.

Borror0

05-26-2009, 01:43 PM

[...] well, there's really no way to count that accurately.
True, but that is a very realistic assumption.

Based on which characters are logged on, it would seem to me that lower level content would not be a complete waste.
"Not a complete" waste does not even deny the possibility that it is a waste.

If you take the list of quests from the wiki (http://ddo.enterwiki.net/page/Quests_by_level):

Level 1: 6
Level 2: 23
Level 3: 16
Level 4: 11
Level 5: 18
Level 6: 18
Level 7: 12
Level 8: 18
Level 9: 13
Level 10: 16 (five of which are raids)
Level 11: 17
Level 12: 8
Level 13: 6
Level 14: 9 (one of which is a raid)
Level 15: 2 (one of which is a raid and will be moved up in levels when Module 9 comes live)
Level 16: 5
Level 17: 6 (one of which is a raid)
Level 18: 2 (both are raids)
Level 19: 4
Level 20: 1 (it's a raid)
Not sure if you see a problem with the dungeons distribution past level 9, but I do.

Then, when you consider that players past through levels (meaning that they are exposed to quests of a certain levels only for a short amount of time) while they are 'stuck' at end game, the value of adding high level content further increases.

Arianrhod

05-26-2009, 01:56 PM

True, but that is a very realistic assumption.

.

So is the assumption that people playing lower level characters are doing so because they either don't have higher level ones, or prefer the lower level ones. We could debate it all day, but we just have different assumptions, based on different experiences. My experience of the game is of one played by small groups of friends who like to play together, and rarely, if ever, reach "endgame". Clearly, yours is different. That doesn't make it more right.

The beauty of DDO is that it can appeal to people with different playstyles. It may be that CURRENTLY there is a more pressing need for high level content than low level (I certainly hope they aren't planning to raise the level cap to 20 without enough new content to get characters to that level without repeating quests), but that doesn't mean that all suggestions for new low level content should be thrown out entirely.

Borror0

05-26-2009, 02:03 PM

I certainly hope they aren't planning to raise the level cap to 20 without enough new content to get characters to that level without repeating quests
The two cap increase that I have been part of did not have enough content to carry someone to cap without repeating content.

With Module 9, it will be far worse because we got less quests and more levels.

[...] but that doesn't mean that all suggestions for new low level content should be thrown out entirely.
The suggestion made by the OP is a bad one. Period.

In an eventual future, might it be a good idea to add more quests bellow level 15? Certainly, it's a possibility. However, currently, that is not where the need is and that is an important thing to realize. While it may sound nice to say "Well, not everyone plays at cap" the reality is that there are significant content issue at cap while there is not a lack of dungeons at low levels.

It's also important to realize that if Turbine wants their players to experience more dungeons, they could revisit existing old dungeons that are not visited because they yield too little XP or because they are highly frustrating. Changing these would require less work and achieve very similar results.

Arianrhod

05-26-2009, 02:10 PM

It's also important to realize that if Turbine wants their players to experience more dungeons, they could revisit existing old dungeons that are not visited because they yield too little XP or because they are highly frustrating. Changing these would require less work and achieve very similar results.

Also good suggestions. Every time my friends and I look through our quest lists at the level 8-9 quests, we see everything is either something we've done to death already (Stormcleave), part of a chain (Co6), or too hard/too unrewarding to be tempting (Shadow Tombs, Faithful Departed). I can't help but agree that making people feel stuck at level 9-11 and adding a new starter area to tempt them to start all over again (Korthos) isn't necessarily the best call either ;)

Angelus_dead

05-26-2009, 02:39 PM

The suggestion made by the OP is a bad one. Period.
Let's take a minute to look at it in the best possible light:

He asked for several different starting areas with their own quests. The fact that he asked indicates that he has some desire for it, and suggests that probably some other people do too.

Why do they feel that way? Maybe they've learned from other games that that's simply how things are done, and it makes them feel comfortable. Maybe it makes them feel like the world is bigger and has distinctive nations and cultures scattered around. Maybe there's another reason.

Regardless of why they like it, we can imagine a nonzero number of players who might have an increased tendency to subscribe based on seeing multiple segregated starting areas. But what would happen after they do subscribe? Depending on your perspective, it could be called either "bait and switch" or "false advertising".

The segragated zones created an impression that the DDO world is divided into different races and cultures and such. That's how it works in WOW, LOTRO, and many other games. But that doesn't happen in DDO. Everyone here lives in one multicultural frontier town... and even back home in Khorvaire, racial identity took second place to national allegiance. So the multiple starting zones would be misleading in that respect.

In addition, there's the fact that if a person thinks repeating a quick, skippable low-level area is bothersome and not-fun, what'll happen in a month or two when he gets up to high level and is repeating the same limited area over and over again? If you didn't enjoy it at level 1, why will you find it better at level 10 or 20?

Arianrhod

05-26-2009, 02:57 PM

Let's take a minute to look at it in the best possible light:

He asked for several different starting areas with their own quests. The fact that he asked indicates that he has some desire for it, and suggests that probably some other people do too.

Why do they feel that way? Maybe they've learned from other games that that's simply how things are done, and it makes them feel comfortable. Maybe it makes them feel like the world is bigger and has distinctive nations and cultures scattered around. Maybe there's another reason.

Regardless of why they like it, we can imagine a nonzero number of players who might have an increased tendency to subscribe based on seeing multiple segregated starting areas. But what would happen after they do subscribe? Depending on your perspective, it could be called either "bait and switch" or "false advertising".

The segragated zones created an impression that the DDO world is divided into different races and cultures and such. That's how it works in WOW, LOTRO, and many other games. But that doesn't happen in DDO. Everyone here lives in one multicultural frontier town... and even back home in Khorvaire, racial identity took second place to national allegiance. So the multiple starting zones would be misleading in that respect.

In addition, there's the fact that if a person thinks repeating a quick, skippable low-level area is bothersome and not-fun, what'll happen in a month or two when he gets up to high level and is repeating the same limited area over and over again? If you didn't enjoy it at level 1, why will you find it better at level 10 or 20?

Well, I'd still like to see something like it EVENTUALLY, but with a few caveats -

First, let's make sure there's enough content for everyone to get from level 1-20, doing quests on Normal, without ever having to repeat any, before focusing on areas that already have a decent amount of content available.

Second, don't split new players up - they should all start in the same place, at least initially, and have the option to do so on later characters if they wish. People have a hard enough time finding one another as it is, no need to make it any harder.

Third, don't make new starter areas that then dump everyone into the same old Stormreach. If there are going to be starting areas in Thrane, Aerenal, the Mror Holds, and Eldeen Reaches, there should be at least a scattering of higher level quests there too.

Angelus_dead

05-26-2009, 03:04 PM

First, let's make sure there's enough content for everyone to get from level 1-20, doing quests on Normal, without ever having to repeat any, before focusing on areas that already have a decent amount of content available.
Are you aware how unreachably far that is from the current situation?

And how much much further it's going to get in module 9? There are 4 new levels coming, and 5 new quests. 80% of a level from one quest on normal? Not even close.

Arianrhod

05-26-2009, 03:05 PM

ChadMan

05-26-2009, 07:25 PM

we don;t need anymore dev time tied up in low lvl stuff... when the game was lunched you could get from start to lvl 3 in only a few hours ...now you can still do that the quest are easier and there are more choices ...so why make more? doesn't make any sense to .....

ya like atm i could get a charicter to 3 in 1 hour tops doing kothros normal ringleader n-e info n-e then kotroes hard for rest of xp

rustbucky

05-27-2009, 06:43 AM

Well from what I can see there's no need to segregate the areas.

They can certainly do a different SOLO quest thats storyline based on whatever they've come from; like that first one for warforged, any race of wizard and any race of fighter.
-----------------------------------------------
In that solo quest it might have a section where wizards can learn how to prepare spells etc.
It might have section where you're told about tower shields that all fighters get, and the pluses and minuses of that etc
Then it might also have a section where the immunities and challenges of a warforged are showcased.
The thing which holds the whole solo quest together is the story theme based around house cannith.

That way you're not segregated for long.
As soon as they've exited the solo option they're in a section for group stuff open for all newbies to group together.

That might be a better option rather than a whole korthos size big place for a limited range of classes.
Even though it would be sort of cool to be in a wilderness area where you see druids, rangers and barbarians doing there thing alongside an elven settlement.

Maybe the area could be korthos sized. But have all the zones the Op mentioned. A wilderness area with elven settlement, a monastery deep in the wilderness for the Wisdom/Lawful based , a bustling trade port and seaside cave into the khyber where the Charismatic/Chaotics and drow come from. And a beach on the other side of the island where the cannith warboat came aground.
That way all the quests would be open for all, you'd just have to travel a little way if they're not your "home" quests.

Thrudh

05-27-2009, 06:54 AM

Are you aware how unreachably far that is from the current situation?

And how much much further it's going to get in module 9? There are 4 new levels coming, and 5 new quests. 80% of a level from one quest on normal? Not even close.

It will get much worse with Mod 9... It's not that far off now at level 16 though... I recently took a character to level 16, and I repeated only a few quests... (I did all the chains n/h/e)... I skipped a lot of quests all together (90% of the Necropolis I never ran, I skipped most of House J, and most of the marketplace quests. I only flagged for DQ, did none of the other desert quests, and still haven't run DQ yet).

I bet one could get to level 16 by repeating every quest in the game only twice. Yes, that means we're still 50% away from getting there by doing every quest on Normal, but I wouldn't call that unreachable... Note that they wouldn't have to double the number of quests, but instead could raise exp in many of the quests people skip today anyway.

But like you said, once the cap goes to 20, it gets even worse..

rustbucky

05-27-2009, 07:31 AM

Powerful weapons do not remove challenge, if you are facing powerful opponents.

As we gain in levels, the monsters we face scale with out gear.

That's the point though isn't it, it's the people that face things well below a challenge, overpowering the area which is no challenge.

I've already seen people with hand-me downs or twinks with race specific items they've garnered from another character rush through zones atomizing everything in their path. No fun for anyone else in the party, watching them one-shot everything with no risk of injury. The watchers barely get to participate at all, and it's a huge turn off.

The should have a "super elite" for those people which is +5 levels above the base quest. Instead of just the +2 that the current elite is.
Maybe just making hard +2 levels and elite +4 levels would do it.

I'd much rather see clever tactics , well thought out plans than a zerg rush , any day.

Angelus_dead

05-27-2009, 10:54 AM

It will get much worse with Mod 9... It's not that far off now at level 16 though... I recently took a character to level 16, and I repeated only a few quests... (I did all the chains n/h/e)
Contradictory. If you ran chains on n/h/e, that's a lot more than triple the XP than if you had only run them once on normal, which is what Arianhr was talking about.

However, getting to the point where a person can level all the way up only running anything once on normal is not a productive goal. Repeating things once or twice on a character isn't a problem, especially when you consider the number of times he'll repeat a quest once capped.

Angelus_dead

05-27-2009, 10:55 AM

In that solo quest it might have a section where wizards can learn how to prepare spells etc.
It might have section where you're told about tower shields that all fighters get, and the pluses and minuses of that etc
Then it might also have a section where the immunities and challenges of a warforged are showcased.
The thing which holds the whole solo quest together is the story theme based around house cannith.
The idea of using the segregated quests for class-specific training doesn't mesh really well with the fact that DDO characters don't necessarily pick their classes at creation.

Angelus_dead

05-27-2009, 10:58 AM

The should have a "super elite" for those people which is +5 levels above the base quest. Instead of just the +2 that the current elite is.
Maybe just making hard +2 levels and elite +4 levels would do it.
Hard and Elite already increase the mission difficulty by +2 and +5, respectively. (Those numbers increase past level 15)

However, that suggestion is irrelevant to the problem. The over-powered twinked characters don't want a challenge from those quests. They want to get their XP and get out, so they'll never willingly choose an optional choice to make it harder.

Arianrhod

05-27-2009, 11:03 AM

Contradictory. If you ran chains on n/h/e, that's a lot more than triple the XP than if you had only run them once on normal, which is what Arianhr was talking about.

However, getting to the point where a person can level all the way up only running anything once on normal is not a productive goal. Repeating things once or twice on a character isn't a problem, especially when you consider the number of times he'll repeat a quest once capped.

It's just a way to measure when one can consider there to be "enough" content. Even a casual gamer who takes 3 years to get to cap is going to consider content lacking if they have to repeat some of it just to get high enough level to see the rest.

Angelus_dead

05-27-2009, 11:23 AM

Even a casual gamer who takes 3 years to get to cap is going to consider content lacking if they have to repeat some of it just to get high enough level to see the rest.
That is obviously untrue.

In fact, a person who takes 3 years to reach level 16 is going to have been playing so infrequently that he'll hardly notice when he repeats a quest, because he's been away from it too long to remember it clearly.

Borror0

05-27-2009, 12:11 PM

I bet one could get to level 16 by repeating every quest in the game only twice.
That's not true, as when you reach higher level the number of quests is too limited for that to be true.

Well, unless you truly desire to run low level quests for minimal XP and very little challenge, but where is the fun in that?

I bet one could get to level 16 by repeating every quest in the game only twice.
Even in areas of the game where this is true, there are a lot of quests that are hard to get a group for.

If only Turbine revisited those areas to make them more appealing.

Arianrhod

05-27-2009, 12:29 PM

That is obviously untrue.

In fact, a person who takes 3 years to reach level 16 is going to have been playing so infrequently that he'll hardly notice when he repeats a quest, because he's been away from it too long to remember it clearly.

Um....again, that hasn't been my experience. First, there are many reasons to take a long time to level. Making alts is one of them; in that case, even doing the same low level quests once on each character get repetitive. Having to repeat them on the same character is downright tedious. I don't want to seem rude or anything, but aren't you the one telling people not to discuss things they have no experience of? I know how long it takes me to forget a quest, and even with just one repetition, it takes many months before it's even close to feeling "new" again. At one quest a week, a person would need, at minimum, 12 quests to run between the first Stormcleave run and the second to "hardly notice" that she was repeating it.

Angelus_dead

05-27-2009, 01:09 PM

Um....again, that hasn't been my experience.
Maybe so, but your experiences are nonrepresentative and not useful to investigate.

You happily admitted to never playing level 15 quests, which strongly indicates that catering to your preferences would be unprofitable. It's simple: you don't like playing at much above level 10, therefore you don't enjoy the most prominent part of DDO gameplay, and are not part of the target population for game development.

Angelus_dead

05-27-2009, 01:34 PM

It's just a way to measure when one can consider there to be "enough" content.
That would be fine for a solo game, but this isn't a solo game. It would be a mistake for DDO developers to use that as a metric for having enough different quests. To do so would lead to a major waste of resources. It would be going too far, just like wearing a crash helmet when you drive to work.

Here's a simple proof:
1. Are most players in static groups all the time? Would it be a good idea for the developers to assume that static groups are the norm?

2. Is there a ordered list of dungeons, so you can only do quest 93 after having done quests 1-92? Would it be a good idea to add something like that?

3. Assuming the answers to #1 and #2 were both "No", then when you have a set of 3-6 characters joined into a party, will the list of quests they haven't done yet be all identical? Or will some of them have done quests that others haven't?

4. Obviously, not all members will have done exactly the same quests previously. Therefore when the party moves out to do their mission, one of two things will happen: (a) a person who's already done it will do it again, or (b) a person won't get to do a quest he wants, because someone else already went there.

4b. And if (b) happens, then eventually the party will get to the point where there are NO quests they can do without someone repeating them. Even if each member has only done 16% of the quests of this level, that's enough for all possibilities to be covered.

5. Therefore, players will repeat quests sometimes. It's an unavoidable consequence of non-static party membership.

6. If there are so many quests that you don't need to repeat any to level, but characters are already repeating quests for other reasons, then it means that characters will make it through a level without having had a chance to visit even close to all of the quests at that level. That indicates that the developers wasted effort by building many more quests than can actually be played while you're still at the appropriate power.

Arianrhod

05-27-2009, 01:58 PM

Let's try a different set of assumptions:

1. Developers will be adding new content more or less continually (if perhaps not as quickly as players would like)

2. Those who race to the top levels by repeating a few high-experience quests rather than playing every quest in consecutive order don't mind repetition as much as those who choose to do every quest

With this in mind, it's not unreasonable to add some lower level content along with the top-end stuff, at least until there is enough to satisfy those who prefer not to repeat quests.

Angelus_dead

05-27-2009, 02:04 PM

1. Developers will be adding new content more or less continually (if perhaps not as quickly as players would like)
The rate at which they add content has little bearing as to what level would be best to add. The only way it's connected is that if additions are slower, more characters will have reached high level by the time something new is added, increasing the need for the new stuff to be max level.

2. Those who race to the top levels by repeating a few high-experience quests rather than playing every quest in consecutive order don't mind repetition as much as those who choose to do every quest
That's irrelevant, because reaching level 16 in no way implies that you raced there by repeating a small number of quests.

least until there is enough to satisfy those who prefer not to repeat quests.
Why would they want to satisfy those people?

Arianrhod

05-27-2009, 02:06 PM

Why would they want to satisfy those people?

sigh

I'm not going to answer questions like this, that come across as having no purpose other than to bait someone. If you can't think of any reasons, I'm just going to assume it's because you don't want to.

Angelus_dead

05-27-2009, 02:10 PM

If you can't think of any reasons, I'm just going to assume it's because you don't want to.
It's because there is no good reason.

There are a lot of different things some person or other would prefer. For example, many players would like to type /dqd and have their character become immune to all damage, but it would obviously be bad for the developers to cater to that.

Similarly, catering to your desires to never repeat a quest would not be profitable for the developers. It would mean nearly doubling or tripling their costs, for hardly any benefit.

Arianrhod

05-27-2009, 02:22 PM

It's because there is no good reason.

There are a lot of different things some person or other would prefer. For example, many players would like to type /dqd and have their character become immune to all damage, but it would obviously be bad for the developers to cater to that.

Similarly, catering to your desires to never repeat a quest would not be profitable for the developers. It would mean nearly doubling or tripling their costs, for hardly any benefit.

Just...

take a step back for a moment, and consider the history of the game, and its future.

If, for example, the level cap remains at 20 for at least a year (as it should, since 20 is supposed to be the top level in D&D...epic levels are "extra"), new content could be added at a ratio of, say, 4 "endgame" quests to 1 "leveling" quest, and the "never repeat a quest" goal could still be reached eventually. Giving a bit of a bone to the old-school D&D players does not require completely blowing off those who prefer endgame content.

Angelus_dead

05-27-2009, 02:33 PM

Giving a bit of a bone to the old-school D&D players does not require completely blowing off those who prefer endgame content.
It's fallacious to claim that "old-school D&D players" are going to habitually delete their characters at level 11 and reroll them.

The foundation of your position seems to be that you think people who stop advancing past about level 10 represent a significant number of customers. But, they just don't. That's a very atypical way to play.

The large majority either have high-level characters, or intend to once they get that far. It's rarely profitable for development to specifically aim at a minority of customers, especially when the subscriber base is already so low.