Armor House Rule Needed IMO + others

[joker965]

So the way i see it DDO has broken the AC balance that somewhat exists in the PNP D&D game. (with a good DM and house rules) Creating a situation that allows crazy AC builds in no armor and it really isn't that hard to do.

Things to possibly change IMO.

1. Greatly increase the DR possible from armor and allow it to stack with innate DR from a Barb or whatever. Example: Add the enhancement plus to the DR of ADM armors or other armors like that. So Adm FP+5 would be 8/- or a adm BP+5 is 7/-. Come up with some special armors that are super-reinforced that have like DR 10+enh/Adm or something like that but -2 dex bonus AC. Warforged would need something else here like +1 dr level/3?

2. Because it seems impossible to implement flat-footed and suprise correctly. The dodge and dex and monk AC bonuses are sometimes overpowered. How would any of that work if you don't see that arrow coming from 100 yards at your back? How many attacks can you use this against in one round? Armor is always on your back. Keeping the scale for high-end armors is just not ok. Why is FP 8AC+Enhancements? The dragon armor is already 10+enh right? Why not 14? 16? Shields too.

3. Please stop with the "special" item properties that can only be on those two or three special raid loot items. Make the really powerful ones like +3 dodge ring min level 15 if you want or whatever seems ok. (natural armor, dodge, whatever.) The raid items get the distinction of having way more stuff on one item than would normaly be ok.

4. Don't nerf anything. Just make it a balance. Wearing armor should not be only for those tunes that can't or don't take advantage of the current system. AC should always be a choice that every character makes. I.E. do i want to wear the 4 items that make my AC higher or the four that make me do much more damage?

Last: The current highest no armor AC builds will still have the highest possible AC. It shouldn't ever get past about +15 possible advantage though. In a D20 system this is not ok.

I know that in PNP there are possible issues like this too. With a good DM and house rules it just isn't allowed.

P.S. The best items in the game should never be something you can make IMO. It takes away part of the essence of D&D right there. I.E. get ubber sword after incredible battle=good(raid)

[joker965]

So does everyone think "That guy is an idiot." or

"He isn't *****ing enough so I don't care to comment"? (The stars are a word that means complain.)

That is all :)

[Slink]

Neither, because after toying around on Lamannia, balance has been fixed in may ways.
Including the subject of your thread.

Now we just wait for it to be implemented on the live servers.
I expect to see level 20's within a week.
Followed by bickering about the cost of respecs(dragonshards).
Followed by solid builds arriving at level 20 a week or so later.

[Ranmaru2]

Why so serious?

Anyways....most toons can get a good AC if the player actually tries. I don't agree that raid loot effects should be on other items we can find, otherwise, what's the point of raids?

I don't know about increasing Base Armor amounts unless they allowed us to craft armor out of different pelts/skins/materials.

[joker965]

Why so serious?

Anyways....most toons can get a good AC if the player actually tries. I don't agree that raid loot effects should be on other items we can find, otherwise, what's the point of raids?

I don't know about increasing Base Armor amounts unless they allowed us to craft armor out of different pelts/skins/materials.

Sorry I was just trying to discuss the game directly and ignore the complaining that is off the hook right now.

The point of having any effect available to treasure items is that every chest will be fun again. Raid loot will still be worth it because you might get a robe that is like Armor 7 and Protection 5 or even more. Not possible in one item slot without a special or raid item.

P.S. I guess was a little irritated that all of the crying posts are getting like 600 comments and i post some ideas about the game and 50 look but go back to complaining and such. Lol I'm over it.

[Ranmaru2]

Ummm....the Why So Serious was addressing your Signature :D

[joker965]

Ummm....the Why So Serious was addressing your Signature :D

Ha! Missed my reading check there. :) It was a running joke in college sorta picking on that silly Nietzsche quote that was "Anything that doesn't kill you makes you stronger."

[Ranmaru2]

Ha! Missed my reading check there. :) It was a running joke in college sorta picking on that silly Nietzsche quote that was "Anything that doesn't kill you makes you stronger."

On a more serious note, I've had a discussion of this nature with a friend in game and unless they let us craft armor piece by piece, there's really no way to logically justify deviating far from the rules for armor and keeping it within reasonable boundaries as to what we'll create.

[Junts]

Sorry I was just trying to discuss the game directly and ignore the complaining that is off the hook right now.

The point of having any effect available to treasure items is that every chest will be fun again. Raid loot will still be worth it because you might get a robe that is like Armor 7 and Protection 5 or even more. Not possible in one item slot without a special or raid item.

P.S. I guess was a little irritated that all of the crying posts are getting like 600 comments and i post some ideas about the game and 50 look but go back to complaining and such. Lol I'm over it.

Honestly, I think this is less of a problem in mod9 becuase heavy plate wearing classes (pal/fighter) are getting enhancement lines worth 7-9 armor class, whereas the robe wearers are not; instead of having roughly identical acs, the plate wearers are about to shoot way ahead of them.

[Angelus_dead]

Honestly, I think this is less of a problem in mod9 becuase heavy plate wearing classes (pal/fighter) are getting enhancement lines worth 7-9 armor class
How do you figure +7 AC above robed characters?

[Ranmaru2]

Undispellable ACs, yes, as far as buffable ACs I'm not so sure about that one Jaer.

[Junts]

How do you figure +7 AC above robed characters?

Ok, I'll bite.

Premise #1:

a majority of high-ac robe wearers have the majority of their levels in ranger
those that do not have the majority of their levels in rogue or monk.
most all have at least one monk level (15/1 ran/monk, 14/1/1, 15/1 rog/monk, 12 ran/3 pal/1 monk and pure monk being the most common robed ac builds)

The 'maximum' armor classes for these builds top out somewhere like so (please note, I am including 'normal raid buffs', which is a +5 barkskin, a bardsong and a recitation/haste .. pocket paladinhood not assumed beyond the paladin levels possessed by the builds themselves, if they have them):

pure monk: 82+
15/1 rog/monk: sustainable 80
ranger variants: 72-75

Some dex-based versions of the ranger variants may go slightly higher than that, especially halfling versions, however, these are not particularly common and most are dps/str builds using human or dwarf as the platform (some, also, use wf).

I would be glad to do some breakdowns of their acs if you needed; however, I suspect you are willing to accept those ac ranges as in my experience those are roughly what's achieved by powergamers playing said builds (the 14/1/1s in my guild top out at 75, the iron monks around 74, the primary rogue level halflings at 80).

Plate wearers in similar circumstances presently top out in the 73-76 ac range: 15/1f paladins can reach 76 and 77 as dwarves; fighters also sit around this threshold. Should a breakdown of these be necessary, I will again present them for you.

I have never met a robe-based ac build built on the paladin or fighter platforms; they are, however, possible, though unlikely for a variety of reasons, and I am unsure what the maximum ac would be for, say, a dex based 14 pal/2 monk). If you like, we can address these later.

Premise 3: Module 9 prestige class lines will not change from what we saw on lamannia/previews.

Therefore, the following will happen:

cap ac's for primary-ranger builds will go down by 2 (the shield-typing of the tempest ac bonus will cost them 2 ac that stacked with wands, but also free them from using said wands).

Dex-based versions of all 3 robed builds (primarily monks and rogues) will probably gain one armor class via a new dexterity bracket (assuming al evel up point and either a +1 better available tome or enhancement swap): net ac change here is -1 to +1 depending on build

Fighter builds gain the following bonuses:

+3 ac, passive prc bonus
+2 ac, heavy armor/tower shield max dex improvement (tower is +3, but irrelevant to this exercise)
+4 ac, superior defensive stance
(situational: +3 more blocking ac, for a total of +5 in block mode)

Fighter ac gain: +9 (12 situationally), assuming a starting 75 (non-dwarf, add dwarven armor mastery bonuses for dwarves), now at 84 with a situational 89 (blocking)

Paladin builds gain the following bonuses:

+2 ac, max dex improvements
+4 ac, superior defensive stance
+1 ac, 'your defensive auras are stronger', which appears to increase the ac of bulwark of good by an additional +1
(situational: paladins also gain the blocking bonuses)

Paladin ac gain; +7, situationally 10)

Paladin ac max now: 76 (dwarf 79, situational 78/81)
paladin ac max then: 83 (dwarf 86, situational 88/91)

While it is possible that we will see a profusion of new, dex-based fighter and paladin builds with monk splash, there are significant deterrants to this as well (less synergy, feat problems for paladin builds in having to qualify for defender, worse dps relative to ranger/rogue platforms, etc)

With said changes, fighter/paladin builds are significantly ahead of ranger-based monk splash templates (unless pure halfling/dex builds, which sacrifice most of the benefit of using ranger), and are roughly competitive with rogue and monk based platforms, possibly slightly exceeded by the best of rogues, and lacking the situational clicky, of course.

So, yes, while might be possible (via pure dex investment and a 18/2 fighter or paladin/monk build) to exceed the ac of a plate wearer, I would have to point out it is not that likely such builds will be persued (like ac monks, they would suffer from pretty terrible dps and some other problems), and the commonly existing (and already created) robed ac builds will be competitive or behind.

[Borror0]

Ok, I'll bite.
Do you have the TL;DR version?

[Junts]

Do you have the TL;DR version?

the what? :P

[Borror0]

the what? :P
Short version.

[Junts]

sure
now
plate average ac: 75
ranger+robe average ac: 75
rogue//monk+robe average ac: 80

issue? clearly

mod9
plate average ac: 83
ranger+robe average ac: 73
rogue//monk+robe average ac: 81

issue? much less
:P

[Borror0]

sure
Do you have the breakdown for those?

[Angelus_dead]

Premise #1:

a majority of high-ac robe wearers have the majority of their levels in ranger
Wow. Invalid from the very first line.

[Junts]

Wow. Invalid from the very first line.

not really, no; ac ranger builds outnumber rogue builds 3:1, and monk builds 8:1 or better, at least on my server

Further, anything that needs to be addressed is generally related to the rangerness; no one was being angsty about 19/1 rogue/monk acrobats inflated acs and dps relative to other people.

[Angelus_dead]

not really, no; ac ranger builds outnumber rogue builds 3:1, and monk builds 8:1 or better, at least on my server
Whatever builds are popular on your server is irrelevant to your contention that mod 9 will give armored characters 7+ more AC that robed characters can't get. If few existing characters are in position to train a certain new feature, that only delays the impact on game balance, not eliminates it.

The only parts of Stalwart Defender and Defender of Syberis that don't benefit a robe-wearer are the increases to max dex, which are +3 or +2 respectively. One can't claim that fig18/monk2 and pal18/monk2 are irrelevant builds, because they're competing with the plate-wearers on the AC front while still using the offhand for an extra weapon, instead of a tower shield.

PS. As a side note, you skipped that monks get higher dex from wind 4 and +1 AC from level 20, and that rangers get a supposedly huge AC increase against their favored enemies.


Further, anything that needs to be addressed is generally related to the rangerness; no one was being angsty about 19/1 rogue/monk acrobats inflated acs and dps relative to other people.
False. The most common basis for a complaint is the impact of monk1.

[Ranmaru2]

Typical Breakdowns for ranger builds (assume 36 Dex/22 Wis):
10 Base
+13 Dex
+6 Wis
+8 AC
+5 Dodge (Raiments w/ ritual)
+3 chattering
+5 CE
+5 Deflection
+5 Bark
+2 tempest
+4 shield
+4 Insight
+1 Dodge (feat)
+4 Bard
+2 Recite
+1 Haste
--------------
78 AC

Situationals
+2 Paly aura (if splash)
+1 size (halfling)
+2 FE
--------------------
83 AC

Unless I'm missing something, a vast majority of that is from buffs (+16 AC from buffs).

The advantage the S&B user has is that the vast majority of his AC comes from undispellable sources, versus the heavy reliance of buffs of ac ranger builds.

[QuantumFX]

*snip* and that rangers get a supposedly huge AC increase against their favored enemies.

Not really huge but it does keep up with a monks “centered” bonus.

Anyway, your post does have an interesting undertone to it. It’s not the monk splash that’s the problem. It’s all the stuff that stacks with it.

[Junts]

Do you have the breakdown for those?


Alright, I'll give it a stab. Rules:

raid buffs assumed
no buff that's shorter than 3:00 extended (haste, recitation, bardsong yes .. uncanny dodge/armor boosts not counting, though I'll list with them as well in parentheses).
No paladin auras beyond what the build itself has (eg, iron monks get +2, lv 15 paladins get +5)


Plate: 1 fighter, 1 paladin.

Paladin:

15/1 paladin/fighter, human (dwarf stats parenthesed)

stat requirement: a base 12 dexterity (if dwarf, 15-16 dex is required)

10 base
15 dragontouched fp
9 levik's defender (or other +5 mts)
2 ac rituals (shield, armor)
3 dex bonus (daggertooth's belt: fighter armor mastery 2, dwarf: 5, daggertooth+dwarven armor mastery 2 ..using dwarven 3 iis possible now but -not- at 20)
5 protection
5 paladin aura
4 insight
2 chaosgarde
3 chattering ring
5 combat expertise
1 dodge feat
standing: 64 (dwarf 66)

5 barkskin
4 bardsong
2 recitation
1 haste

raid: 76 (dwarf 78)

Module 9 version:

Paladin 18 / fighter 2

same stat layouts:

10 base
15 dragontouched fp
9 levik's defender (or other +5 mts)
2 ac rituals (shield, armor)
5 dex bonus (defender of siberys 3, daggertooth belt: dwarf: 7 as defender only gets the tower shield cap to 7)
5 protection
6 paladin aura
4 insight
2 chaosgarde
3 chattering ring
5 combat expertise
1 dodge feat
standing: 67 (dwarf 69)

5 barkskin
4 bardsong
2 recitation
1 haste
4 superior defensive stance

raid: 83 (dwarf 85)


Fighter:

15 fighter / paladin 1 (this is the max-ac plate wearing variant, though most will be pure as 10%attack>1 ac)

stat requirement: dexterity 14 (dwarf 16-18)

10 base
15 dragontouched fp
9 levik's defender (or other +5 mts)
2 ac rituals (shield, armor)
4 dex bonus (1 base, 3 fighter am .. dwarf: 6-7)
5 protection
4 insight
2 chaosgarde
3 chattering ring
5 combat expertise
1 dodge feat
1 paladin aura

base: 61 (dwarf 63-64)

5 barkskin
4 bardsong
2 recitation
1 haste

raid: 73 (dwarf: 75-76)

remember to subtract 1 ac here for pure fighter variants (13/3s are 1 point better now, and will be slightly worse at 20)

module 9:

fighter 19 / paladin 1 (18/2 is probably a better build choice but identical in ac terms .. again, subtract 1 ac for pure builds)

10 base
15 dragontouched fp
9 levik's defender (or other +5 mts)
2 ac rituals (shield, armor)
6 dex bonus (1 base, 3 fighter am .. dwarf: 8-9 .. dwarf can use more armor mastery here due to fighter tower shield mastery being available)
5 protection
4 insight
2 chaosgarde
3 chattering ring
5 combat expertise
1 dodge feat
1 paladin aura
3 stalwart defender static bonus

base: 66 (dwarf 68-69)

5 barkskin
4 bardsong
2 recitation
1 haste
4 superior defensive stance

raid: 82 (dwarf: 84-85)

I'd like to take this opportunity to note that pure fighters and 18/2 paladin/fighters will have functionally identical armor classes; the 1 pally splash can move the fighter ahead by 1 at the cost of the capstone. Of course, the fighter can benefit more from a grouped paladin, up to 5-6 more ac, but that was explicitly excluded from all these (the radius is small, and it is rare that multiple highly-geared ac tanks run quests/raids together and that an off-tank specced paladin would be near another tank during tanking duties for aura sharing .. even in vod, orthons are kept far enough from suulo that the maintank does not benefit from a paladin orthon tank's aura while they're being done).

I will do 3 dex builds: a 14/1/1 exploiter (w/ notations for differences for iron monks), a 19/1 rogue/monk acrobat, and a pure monk. Exploiter will be human, the rogue and monk will be halfling (adding +3 ac to the exploiter can effectively make it a halfling: the difference is 1 size ac, 1 starting dex bracket, and 2 dex enhancements for a total of 3 armor class)


Ranger:

14 ranger / 1 monk / 1 rogue
(worth mentioning: 1 paladin instead of 1 rogue is a 1 higher ac build, though not commonplace)

15 base dex / 14 base wisdom

More statistic breakdown is required for monk-splashed builds since we have to determine their realisticly achievable wisdoms. For exploiter, I'm going to use the stats given by EinarMal; for the other two builds, i will detail at the post's end how I determined the wisdom I used. For exploiter, add +3 more ac if you wish to assume a pure dex based version, 1 from starting at 18 dex, and 2 more from 4 level ups. (in other words, a dex halfling exploiter has 8 more ac than does this human version!). since the human exploiter starts at 15 and uses 3 enhacements, a dex halfling exploiter will gain 1 more ac from leveling up (using its last enhancement + its last level up point), which human exploiter won't gain. so the differene is 8 at 16 and 9 at 20.

(hattip: lv 16 ac breakdown is jacked from einarmal and edited into my format and specifics)

10 Base
1 Dodge feat
4 Icy Raiments Dodge
1 Alchemical Dodge
3 Chattering Ring Dodge
8 Dexterity
6 Wisdom
1 Monk Bonus
4 Insight (Shroud Crafted)
5 Protection
8 Armor Bracers
2 tempest untyped
5 Combat Expertise

standing: 58 (halfling dex based: 66)

5 barkskin
4 inspire heroics
2 recitation
1 haste
4 shield wand


raid: 74 (halfling dex based: 82)
add 3 if you wish to assume favored enemy defense is maxed; this is what puts normal exploiters ahead of plate tanks at the moment. the dex halfling version is pretty amazing at the moment, though I'm not aware of anyone who's actually made one (since, for a dex/halfling build, 19 rog/1 monk is superior dps by a great margin)

Module 9:

18 ranger / 1 rogue / 1 monk

10 Base
1 Dodge feat
4 Icy Raiments Dodge
1 Alchemical Dodge
3 Chattering Ring Dodge
8 Dexterity
6 Wisdom
1 Monk Bonus
4 Insight (Shroud Crafted)
5 Protection
8 Armor Bracers
5 Combat Expertise
4 tempest 3 shield bonus

standing: 60 (dex halfling: 69)

4 inspire heroics
5 barkskin
2 recitation
1 haste

raid: 72 (dex halfling: 81)
again, add +3 to both for favored defense if you want: the dex halfling is almost exactly competitive with the s/b module 9 builds, and the human exploiter w/ str based is now a long way behind, especially against non-favored (which does not matter very much)

addendum to ranger: the addition of a 2 wis or 2 dex offhand shroud weapon could increase all acs by 2; however, these builds do not do that often so I did not include the option. should you wish to assume it, add 1 ac. add one more if you want to use kamas and totally gimp your dps, for water or wind stance stat bonuses. i did not do these, as a dex-based ranger that does all those things is no longer even remotely like the exploiter.


Rogue:
halfling

15 rogue / 1 monk

starting dex: 20
starting wis: 13 (in fact, I would suggest most will start with 12 or even 10, since starting with 20 dex, 12 int, 13 wis and 14 con requires them to have a 7 strength, and no one does that)

lv 16 dex: 24 base + 2 tome + 3 rogue + 2 halfling + 6 item (36, 38 with +3 tome, assuming the 36)
lv 16 wis: 13 base + 2 tome + 1 monk + 6 item = 22

as this build is really ac-focused, I'm going to give it the benefit of assuming the offhand weapon has excep +2 wis or dex; I will also make this assumption for hte monk (i did not for the exploiter). I will not assign which, but simply assess it 1 extra armor class, instead of deciding whether its a mineral, lightning strike or 2nd radiance weapon.

10 base
13 dexterity
6 wisdom
4 icy dodge
3 chatter dodge
1 alchem dodge
8 armor bracer
5 protection
4 insight
1 monk bonus
1 dodge feat
5 combat expertise
1 exceptional stat
1 size

standing: 63

4 inspire heroics
5 barkskin
2 recitation
1 haste
4 shield wand

raid: 79

ac can be one higher with a +3 wisdom tome and additional buildpoint spent in wisdom to start at 14.

module 9:

rogue 19 / monk 1

level 20 dex: 25 base + 2 tome + 3 rogue + 2 halfling + 6 item = 38 (a +4 tome is required to reach 40)
level 20 wisdom: unchanged; a +4 tome is required to reach a new bracket, or, again, the 14 base/+3 tome, more realistic here)

10 base
14 dexterity
6 wisdom
4 icy dodge
3 chatter dodge
1 alchem dodge
8 armor bracer
5 protection
4 insight
1 monk bonus
1 dodge feat
5 combat expertise
1 exceptional stat
1 size

standing: 64

4 inspire heroics
5 barkskin
2 recitation
1 haste
4 shield wand

raid: 80

the wisdom assumption adds another point.
This build's actually fallen farther behind than I thought; so much so that I keep expecting to find some significant ac boost I missed. However with radiance weapons, it's really the most unhittable.

Monk 16:

halfling, dex based:

starting stats of
8 str, 19 dex, 14 con, 11 int, 15 wisdom, 8 charisma (could start at 13 con / 6 str if you wanted that last dex point..but it's not needed. it gives you 1 ac at 16 but none at 20)

level 16 dexterity: 23 base + 3 halfling + 2 tome + 6 item = 32
level 16 wisdom: 15 base + 3 monk + 6 item + 2 tome = 26

either wind or water stance is +1 ac now, +2 at cap when its +4/-2.

10 base
11 dex
8 wisdom
8 armor bracers
4 raiments dodge
3 chattering dodge
1 alchemical dodge
5 protection
4 insight
1 dodge feat
5 combat expertise
1 size
4 monk bonus (this is right, yeah?)
1 exceptional stat on offhand kama

standing: 66 (67 in stance)

5 barkskin
4 heroics
2 recitation
1 haste
4 shield wand

raid: 82 (83 in stance)

Monks, as we know, have amazing armor class.

monk 20:

the ac gains for monk 20 are:

+1 more monk bonus (level 20)
+1 more bonus from dexterity (1 level up, +3 tome = 1 more bracket)
+1 more in stance (stances now 4/2)

so the 20 monk has a standing 70 and a raid 86, though honestly they will struggle enormously to umd even a shield5 wand and probably have to use cookies to achieve this.

The monk is, as we knew, actually ac-paramount, though what he can do with it is anyone's guess.

There are some mongrel builds out there that go this high, but rarely much higher, with some playing I could find a pure ac build that goes a bit higher, but I think its interesting that nothing that isn't a dwarf plate wearer is going past 85 ac.

[Junts]

That's a good breakdown, Ranmaru, and pretty much coincides with mine: case remains that the ranger's losing 2 acc to the cap, and 81 is less than the 83-85 that plate wearers will achieve.

I ended ups ubstituting a pure dex exploiter for the iron monk in my analysis as I did not find that the iron monk was adding much and ranmaru has broken it down pretty well (dreadbringer is the definitive halfling iron monk on ghallanda, and taht's the breakdown ranmaru gave us)

Its less than plate.

[Junts]

Whatever builds are popular on your server is irrelevant to your contention that mod 9 will give armored characters 7+ more AC that robed characters can't get. If few existing characters are in position to train a certain new feature, that only delays the impact on game balance, not eliminates it.

The only parts of Stalwart Defender and Defender of Syberis that don't benefit a robe-wearer are the increases to max dex, which are +3 or +2 respectively. One can't claim that fig18/monk2 and pal18/monk2 are irrelevant builds, because they're competing with the plate-wearers on the AC front while still using the offhand for an extra weapon, instead of a tower shield.

PS. As a side note, you skipped that monks get higher dex from wind 4 and +1 AC from level 20, and that rangers get a supposedly huge AC increase against their favored enemies.


False. The most common basis for a complaint is the impact of monk1.


I covered almost all of that in my breakdowns; I will go break down a presumed 18 figh/2 monk (it should have slightly more) if you're interested in seeing how that compares exactly.

[Ranmaru2]

That's a good breakdown, Ranmaru, and pretty much coincides with mine: case remains that the ranger's losing 2 acc to the cap, and 81 is less than the 83-85 that plate wearers will achieve.

I ended ups ubstituting a pure dex exploiter for the iron monk in my analysis as I did not find that the iron monk was adding much and ranmaru has broken it down pretty well (dreadbringer is the definitive halfling iron monk on ghallanda, and taht's the breakdown ranmaru gave us)

Its less than plate.

Dreadbringer was Iron Monk before that build even had a name :D

And if the top ACs become equal to or slightly less than plate, congratulations on Balance is what I say.

Also, after looking at your breakdowns, my point still stands. The other builds rely on buffs (+16) versus a (usual) +12 on the side of the S&B plate users. So beholder proof ACs become much more relevant.

[Junts]

Dreadbringer was Iron Monk before that build even had a name :D

And if the top ACs become equal to or slightly less than plate, congratulations on Balance is what I say.

Also, after looking at your breakdowns, my point still stands. The other builds rely on buffs (+16) versus a (usual) +12 on the side of the S&B plate users. So beholder proof ACs become much more relevant.


Yep, though i was listing a permanent, undispellable buff (superior stance) under buffs instead of standing.

Its also worth noting that I really had to stretch the dps out of ranger and rogue to get them competitive ac wise; none of those builds with equivalent 85 acs are very good dps twf builds, and I think I'd argue that a zealing, divine might/favor, 36 str khopesh using s/b toon is probably pretty competitive with them in dps, if they're really going to start with 6-8 strengths and/or use monk weapons.

The 'exploiter' type builds, which are the balance problem, are significantly behind, whereas right now they are equivalent (74 ac vs 75-76 for plate wearers).

that is the important gap in terms of ac balance: all those dex-based robe ac builds have their own significant weaknesses not present in the exploiter and its ilk.

[Streaker]

when was the last time a beholder took a swing @ you?

[Junts]

when was the last time a beholder took a swing @ you?

but often are there things swinging at you as you try and kill the beholder!

also, quite a few mobs out there have greater dispel, and gdm continues to scale up to 20, so its not going to get any less annoying.

[QuantumFX]

but often are there things swinging at you as you try and kill the beholder!

also, quite a few mobs out there have greater dispel, and gdm continues to scale up to 20, so its not going to get any less annoying.

And don’t forget the Mordakainens Disjunction

[Borror0]

And don’t forget the Mordakainens Disjunction
That will come for your items too (and that's in favor of the Dex-builds).

[Ranmaru2]

Yep, though i was listing a permanent, undispellable buff (superior stance) under buffs instead of standing.

Its also worth noting that I really had to stretch the dps out of ranger and rogue to get them competitive ac wise; none of those builds with equivalent 85 acs are very good dps twf builds, and I think I'd argue that a zealing, divine might/favor, 36 str khopesh using s/b toon is probably pretty competitive with them in dps, if they're really going to start with 6-8 strengths and/or use monk weapons.

The 'exploiter' type builds, which are the balance problem, are significantly behind, whereas right now they are equivalent (74 ac vs 75-76 for plate wearers).

that is the important gap in terms of ac balance: all those dex-based robe ac builds have their own significant weaknesses not present in the exploiter and its ilk.

When it comes to the ranger builds, they keep the DPS as the FE (due to limited variety at end game) adds on more strength than any other person can acquire unless it's a barbarian. But I can see what you're saying on the other type of builds (tbh I classify that 18/1/1 rgr/rogue/monk to be in this lacking category....have yet to see one played well or be useful).

[QuantumFX]

That will come for your items too (and that's in favor of the Dex-builds).

Actually, no, it doesn't favor the DEX builds. Just using Junt's breakdowns above the Armored guy loses 27 AC and the monk loses 30 AC. They get double hit with stat debuffs and lose all their armor bonus from braciers/robes.

[wickettbattlechan]

If they wanted to have castable buffs dispelled there are a few objects like the Sub T runes that auto dispell all your buffs. It certainly wouldn't be unprecedented for them to add those to new content to even out things :rolleyes:

[Ranmaru2]

If they wanted to have castable buffs dispelled there are a few objects like the Sub T runes that auto dispell all your buffs. It certainly wouldn't be unprecedented for them to add those to new content to even out things :rolleyes:

Problem with adding those into quests would be that they would need to: A) work on monsters as well - if they received any buffs, B) Have to activate just like the regular spell at a reasonable caster level, or C) Be in moments where you wouldn't get bombarded by so many spells/monsters as to just make it a death area that you took a wrong turn to run into.

I wouldn't actually mind if they added these as traps that Sorcs/Clerics/Wizards could disable and needed to succeed with an Int check or something to be able to see the rune when they pass by that deactivates these runes. Or just make them rogue disabled.