OK how about this.

[osirisisis]

First to all of your who R now loading your flame throwers reference this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QyYaPWasos). It seems alot people find it easier to flame other peoples ideas then come up with your own ideas

The Random loot table appears to need some major help, who R we kidding the random loot table needs a resurrection, and many players agree in seeing some kinda excitement put back into it. So turbine what do U think about this?

1 out of every 100 chests and 1 out of every 100 options on an end reward list would generate a peice of loot known as a rare. Rares would have a -2 to there min lvl.
Rare items would have a slight auric glow in the graphic when looking at the toon holding them or wearing them.
Rare items are not bound
Rare items would have a metallic copper colored background in the picture instead of blue.
Rare items would have twice the durability of a normal item

Example and chest is produceing lvl 2 loot out of the random loot table and rolls a 1/d100 and hits a 100 rare confirmed and generates a + 1 flaming dagger of backstabing +1 min lvl 2 (rare).

1 out of every 1000 chests and 1 out of every 1000 options on the end reward list would generate a piece of loot known as Historic . Historic would have a -4 to there min lvl.
Historic loot would have a auric glow in the graphic when looking at the toon holding them or wearing them.
Historic are not bound
Historic would have a metallic silver colored background in the picture.
Historic would have 4 times the durability of a normal item.

Example a chest is producing lvl 6 loot out of the random loot table and rolls a 1/d100 and rolls a 100 confirming rare and then rolls a 1d10 and rolls a 10 confirming a Historic and produces a +2 thundering mace of Greater Undead bane min lvl 6.

1 out of every 10000 chests and 1 out of every 10000 options on the end reward list would generate a piece of loot known as a Mythical. Mythical would have a -8 to there min lvl.
Mythical loot would have a large auric glow in the graphic when looking at the toon holding them or wearing them.
Mythical are not bound
Mythical would have a metallic gold colored background in the picture instead of blue.
Mythical would have 8 times the durability of a normal item.
Mythical items would not be bound by the prefix sufex rules with a max of 2 total.

Example You finish the shroud and get your end reward which the table produces 9 peices of gear and 1 major pot. The table then rolls on the first item 1d100 and rolls a 59 fail, rolls a 1d100 on the second item and rolls an 11 fail, rolls a 1d100 on the 3rd item rolls a 100 rare confirmed, rolls a 1d10 and rolls a 10 historic confirmed, rolls a 1d10 and rolls a 10 Mythical confirmed and produces a +5 wisdom necklace of Heavy Fort min lvl 14.

1 out of every 100000 chests and 1 out of every 100000 options on the end reward list would generate a piece of loot known as a Legendary. Legendary would have a -16 to there min lvl.
Legendary loot would have a very large auric glow in the graphic when looking at the toon holding them or wearing them.
Legendary are not bound.
Legendary would have a platinum colored background in the picture instead of blue.
Legendary would have 16 times the durability
Legendary would not be bound by the prefix sufix rule with a max of 3 total.

Example U open a chest produce lvl 10 loot and the table rolls a 1d100 and rolls a 100 rare confirmed, rolls a 1d10 and rolls a 10 historic confirmed, rolls a 1d10 and rolls a 10 Mythical confirmed, rolls a 1d10 and rolls a 10 Legendary confirmed and produce a +2 vorpal, paralizing, curse spewing khopesh min lvl 10.

1 out of every 1000000 chests and 1 out of every 1000000 options on the end reward list would generate a piece of loot known as a Eternal . Eternal would have a -32 to there min lvl.
Eternal loot would have a Huge large auric glow in the graphic when looking at the toon holding them or wearing them.
Eternal are not bound.
Eternal would have a rainbow colored background in the picture instead of blue.
Eternal would never take damage.
Eternal would not be bound by the prefix sufix rule with a max of 4 total.

We would probably see 1 eternal if that pulled on all the servers a year.

Now I know what some of you R thinking is "thats way to strong".

First of all dont worry about it because 999 out of every 1000 players would probably would not pull one of the eternal loot in there entire DDO career.

Second some of them would come out as junk like this Mythical +3 con ring of bluff +10 min lvl 9, or this Legendary +5 great club of tending slice 4% of greater verman bane min lvl 8. This Legendary would still be good but it still wouldnt be as good a mineral 2 heavy pick in all around practicality.

Third: The raid loot piece known as the belt of Brut str. is a lvl 10 and should be a 23 which would be thousands of time easier to get and I mean thousands, then any Eternal loot.

This same concept would also apply to name loot, 1 out of 100 bloodstones pulled would be lvl 7 min, 1 out of 1000 would be min lvl 5 etc.

So turbine lets bring back the loot table excitement, lets bring back the loot runs, lets simulate the economy, and lets spice it up with some anticipation super lotto style.

[cdbd3rd]

Twas an interesting read...


Only issue I would debate on it is that part about not being bound.
At the very least, I would expect something like that to be bound-to-account.

Otherwise, yeah. Would be kinda neat.

(I'm also of the opinion that the Binding/Attuning ritual should drop the min level on a piece of loot, too - but that's a different story line.) ;)

[osirisisis]

Twas an interesting read...


Only issue I would debate on it is that part about not being bound.
At the very least, I would expect something like that to be bound-to-account.

Otherwise, yeah. Would be kinda neat.

(I'm also of the opinion that the Binding/Attuning ritual should drop the min level on a piece of loot, too - but that's a different story line.) ;)

Thx on the entrusting part

To me bound random loot is a oxymoron.
I'm not a fan of bound... It degrades the value of gear
I think:
1. Bound hurts economy and trade.
2. If you pull a great etturnal weapon on your healing cleric it would be counter productive to the excitement factor thats trying to be created.
3. I for see turbine pulling the new favor reward trick soon with lets say a 40 point build in a attempt to get everyone to reroll there toons to keep the busy for another 2 years of grinding to get all there crafted and raided bound stuff back.
4. Raid loot ya, crafted loot ok, but random loot no way, its one of the things that makes random loot exciting, its that usable now, or that would be great my other toon or tradable now for something that you really need.

[Noctus]

Sounds cool, but only if the loot was bound to account.


Otherwise i can vividly see new players becoming extremly frustrated if you carnage your way through WW elite on your level 2 DEX rogue, twinked in special gear, while they struggle on their level 5 fighter to keep up.

[Tomas_Laren]

If they implemented a decent low level crafting system they could put crafting ingredients in chests throughout the game, giving people something to spend on (helping the game economy) seriously how hard is it to add a piece of ore to the loot system that drops like the dragon shard fragments? then go to a smithy and combine the ore with what ever smelting ingredients needed to buy and how ever much ore it costs to make your armour or weapon of + equivalent...

then you could have enchanting material drop in chests and enchant equipment with what ever abilities you wanted on it, like say 10 wraith essences for ghost touch, or 15 scorpion stingers to add a poison effect... go to an enchanter and pay them to do their voodoo and enchant your weapon, you could even have mobs drop the treasure bags like they do in the subteraine so everyone could get enchanting materials off mobs...

be an excelent stimulus for the economy i think

[Impaqt]

Are three letter words really that hard to type out?

[osirisisis]

Sounds cool, but only if the loot was bound to account.


Otherwise i can vividly see new players becoming extremly frustrated if you carnage your way through WW elite on your level 2 DEX rogue, twinked in special gear, while they struggle on their level 5 fighter to keep up.

Well I guess its not a support forum, its not a comments forum, its a debate forum.

Ok

First I still don't understand this concept of "O my team mates to strong as he helps archive are goal in common at greater then normal efficiency".

Second I think that its would be good for new players to see that in some ways, makes them aspirer for betterment. Ya your new friend picks U up in his new Lamborghini to take you for a ride, and ya you hate him, and ya your jealous, but man I wish I had one of these, and what would I have to get one, makes you think.

3rd odds of getting a lvl 2 eternal is so astronomical its not even worth talking about but lets say he had a +4 icy burst dagger legionary min lvl 2... would other lvl 5 tanks with +1 flaming of pure good khopesh, with +3 to there bab, really be that far behind... not really... it wouldn't be that bad at all, noticeable but not that bad.

4th older player seniority is deserved, and building seniority I feel is good for the game, it makes your work and time mean more, which is more likely to keep maturing players around. There newbees there suppose to still be learning and building in the game. This concept of make new players just as good as old players is bad for long term account history and better for new player influx, bad for long term in that fact that if they come in and its easy for them to get to the top, then they get board and leave because there less to due and they dont have the constant challenge, the more room players have to strive to make them selfs the best the longer players stay with the game in my opinion.

[osirisisis]

If they implemented a decent low level crafting system they could put crafting ingredients in chests throughout the game, giving people something to spend on (helping the game economy) seriously how hard is it to add a piece of ore to the loot system that drops like the dragon shard fragments? then go to a smithy and combine the ore with what ever smelting ingredients needed to buy and how ever much ore it costs to make your armour or weapon of + equivalent...

then you could have enchanting material drop in chests and enchant equipment with what ever abilities you wanted on it, like say 10 wraith essences for ghost touch, or 15 scorpion stingers to add a poison effect... go to an enchanter and pay them to do their voodoo and enchant your weapon, you could even have mobs drop the treasure bags like they do in the subteraine so everyone could get enchanting materials off mobs...

be an excelent stimulus for the economy i think

I would like to see a more broader version of a intelligent balanced crafting system implemented at all levels, but at this time I think that the random loot system which is so greatly over shadowed by the current crafting system is so desperately in need that it should be focused on first.

[Borror0]

the random loot table needs a resurrection
We can at least agree on that.

Rares would have a -2 to there min lvl.
Um, no.

This would make twinking even more overpowered, and the last thing this game needs is more twinking.

Historic would have a -4 to there min lvl.
Do you want a a paralyser at level 6? Sorry, overpowered and insane twinking.

Legendary would have a -8 to there min lvl.
Paralyser at level 2. Even more overpowered. It makes content trivial at this point, not only easy.

Eternals would have a -16 to there min lvl.
+5 Vorpal, ML 4.

Nice loot. Better DPS than anything of its level AND Vorpal. Beyond overpowered.

Eternals would have a -16 to there min lvl.
This would break the system, unless you want to make epic enchantment enter.

The highest non-epic weapon possible is something like a +5 Vorpal Rapier of Smiting, which would be ML 30. This means that either there is no improvement for Eternal weapons after ML 14 (or ML 12 if RR) or that you make epic enchantments enter into the equation (which has serious ramifications and should not be decided lightly).

1 out of every 100 chests and 1 out of every 100 options on an end reward list would generate a peice of loot known as a rare.
1 out of every 1000 chests and 1 out of every 1000 options on the end reward list would generate a piece of loot known as Historic.
1 out of every 10000 chests and 1 out of every 10000 options on the end reward list would generate a piece of loot known as a Legendary.
1 out of every 100000 chests and 1 out of every 100000 options on the end reward list would generate a piece of loot known as a Eternal.
That was something that brought to your attention before, but I will repeat it again: ridiculously small chances of gain are not good incentive.

Generally speaking, humans don't put a lot of efforts into something they know they have ridiculously low chances to be rewarded. Even if the reward is beyond overpowered in some cases, it is not an incentive to loot random chests because the chance to win is way too low.

First of all dont worry about it because 59 out of every 60 players would problely would not pull one of the eturnals loot in there entire DDO career.
You seem to underestimate the impact of a single ML 4 unbound +5 Paralyser on a server.

Even if it was bound on acquire, it could simply destroy the gaming experience of a player by making content easier than it ever should be.

This Eternal would still be good but it still wouldnt be as good a mineral 2 heavy pick in all around practicality.
That raises an interesting question: would that suggestion, in it's current form and assuming no epic enchantments, be of any help at low level considering the current progression of named loot or would it be a negligible addition to gameplay?

Clearly, this proposal is overpowered at lower level. However, it would be interesting to compare the loot that will be found in the level 20 raid(s) to the Eternal gear proposed by the OP (assuming it caps at ML 14 as previously mentioned). The progression our equipment's power, in DDO, is exponential and it is possible that Eternal gear is not all that much more interesting in the end.

In other words, it would totally break lower levels and not solve the problem he was trying to solve: that is, random loot is unappealing at end game.

lets bring back the loot runs
I hope you don't think your proposal will accomplish that.

lets spice it up with some anticipation super lotto style.
For reference, many people who won at the lotto say that it was one of the worse thing that ever happened to them.

Funnily enough, this proposal capture that really well. Eternal items are a poisoned gift.

[Borror0]

I still don't understand this concept of "O my team mates to strong as he helps archive are goal in common at greater then normal efficiency".
Most players like to play the game and not having the game played for them.

Maybe you've the "chance" to play a team sport (soccer, basketball, etc.) with a player far too good in your team so that he basically played the game alone and won you the match on his own. It's not fun at all. Ask any parent if they play at their full potential when playing with their kids (talking about very young kids here, not teenager and older).

I think that its would be good for new players to see that in some ways, makes them aspirer for betterment.
"trying to catch up" is not a very exciting experience, which is why new players are the ones complaining about zergers.

Once again, they want to play the game and not having it played for them.

odds of getting a lvl 2 eternal is so astronomical its not even worth talking about
That does not prevent it from being destructive addition to gameplay, just less destructive than if it was a more common.

Both for the owner and its potential party members.

older player seniority is deserved
While that is true, there is such a thing as too rewarding.

[stockwizard5]

Paralyser at level 2. Even more overpowered. It makes content trivial at this point, not only easy ... In other words, it would totally break lower levels and not solve the problem he was trying to solve: that is, random loot is unappealing at end game.

I disagree my friend ... the system is debatable and interesting but reality check here - low level content is ALREADY trivial. An Eternal Paralyzer (although very cool) would make zero difference to the fully twinked power gamer. We already blow through everything with the only limit being our ability to open higher level quests.

[Borror0]

low level content is ALREADY trivial.
Well, at least there is a chance to die. A ML 2 Paralyser nearly reads /immortal on.

We already blow through everything
True, but that would only make the problem worse.

[stockwizard5]

True, but that would only make the problem worse.

Maybe but the problem is how many people are leaving out of bordom and the fact that random loot holds zero value. At this point the problem is terminal (that is it can't get worse). The question is what to do about these two issues? Bordom = More Content (check) and Random Loot = ???

[Borror0]

The question is what to do about these two issues?
Well, I once (twice, actually) posted a reply to one of the OP's multiple threads on random loot and he never even bother replying.

To be honest, I am still pondering about a good way to totally revamp the random loot system and I am not totally happy of what I have thought of thus far. So, keep in mind that the following is not something that I am 100% happy of (for weapons, at least - I think it is quite good for armors and shields):


While not diving into the specifics, better high level item enchantments are needed. Improved version of some of the previous enchantment do not seem to be a bad idea. This is not limited to Banishing, Smiting, Paralyzing and Disruption. Any previous enchantment should be given an improved version.

Some current "trash enchantment" could also be given a little more love, possibly.

A way to improve the overall quality of random loot would also be to change the progression. Right now, the formula for loot is (base price modifier * 2) - 2 = minimum level. For example, a +1 weapon or armor have a bpm of 1, and a ML of 0. A +5 weapon has a bpm of 5 and a ML 8.

What could be done is that, past level 10, the enhancement bonus to weapon/armor start affecting the bmp less and less.


Minimum level Enhancement bonus Equivalent
affecting bpm of current bpm

10 +5 +6
12 +4 +8
14 +3 +10
16 +2 +12
18 +1 +14
20 +0 +16
What would be a ML 20 right now would have a bpm of 11. Under that system, a ML 20 weapon would have the equivalent of a 16 bpm. This transition would allow us to keep up the pace with named loot and restore some dignity to the random loot.

The use of a more abrupt slope could affect new players by making tweaking more powerful than it was already. This could be solved by adding decent static loot at the end of some high level quests, a bit in the way Turbine did on Kortos by giving stuff better than the current random loot but lesser than the tweaking gear. Either way, it would not be a bad idea, if only to offset the huge advantage Green Steel equipment represents.

I'm not totally sure whether or not such a progression is a good idea for weapons, but it is required for armors and shields.
I will also add that I would steal some enchantment from Green Steel equipment and other named items and add them to the loot tables.

It is important to not also that Turbine is already ware of the problem, and has decided to add tons of named loot to reduce the issue for now (we are talking of 32 pieces of name loot and 32 pieces of raid loot, that can be further customized). So, while that is not a perfect fix it does reduce the issue.

EDIT: I realize that the quote is not that clear but I have a big headache right now so I will answer questions rather than simply rewrite the whole thing.

[Thrudh]

First I still don't understand this concept of "O my team mates to strong as he helps archive are goal in common at greater then normal efficiency".

Borror explained this very well... I'm not sure why you dismiss his response as "empty".

There is ZERO fun in watching someone else solo a quest while you do nothing...

I don't know why you can't understand that...

I definitely agree that random loot needs to be re-vamped. I like your ideas, except for the lowering the ML part... No need for that.

I agree with Borro that most greensteel effects need to be added to the random loot generator... That would do a lot to make random loot more interesting...

Much better post Osisisisiririri. At least you're offering constructive suggestions instead of moaning about the w/p change.

[Borror0]

I like your ideas, except for the lowering the ML part... No need for that.
By the way, the "bound by the prefix sufix rule with a max of X total" suggestions were added after I replied to him.

[osirisisis]

Well, I once (twice, actually) posted a reply to one of the OP's multiple threads on random loot and he never even bother replying.

OK borror since you got something with some substance here I'll take you off the ignore list for this reply.

To be honest, I am still pondering about a good way to totally revamp the random loot system and I am not totally happy of what I have thought of thus far. So, keep in mind that the following is not something that I am 100% happy of (for weapons, at least - I think it is quite good for armors and shields):

I would say that lvl 12, 14, 16 and higher random loot becomes about 98% worthless
and on the subject of shields and armor what can possibly compete with icyremnet, hound shields, and dragon touch armor. I dont think that making the loot table drop a higher level worthless at lower level chests is going to make any differance that matters. .



I will also add that I would steal some enchantment from Green Steel equipment and other named items and add them to the loot tables.

Details ....... would U post an example of a hybrid item with the above idea

On the concept of improved versions of already existing random items... I have my ideas here (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=2126500)
what R some examples of yours?

It is important to not also that Turbine is already ware of the problem, and has decided to add tons of named loot

If you look at what named loot is... U may find that in some cases it is very similar to what I purpose expect it is more constricted with less verity in its context
Example: Boot of the innocent is a inbetween version of a legendary and eternal verison since they should be min lvl 24 but there only 11, if you could get saves on boots in the random loot table
Karden eye is a historic -2 lvl version of +4 historic save trinket if you could
saves on a trinket.
Belt of thoughtful remembrance should be something like lvl 22 but yet its 11.
Etc. The problem with this is it lacks verity and confines it just to the named item context and doesn't generate a random verity

to reduce the issue for now (we are talking of 32 pieces of name loot and 32 pieces of raid loot, that can be further customized). So, while that is not a perfect fix it does reduce the issue.

If 32 pieces of good named loot does come out I will help. As for 32 pieces of customized raid crafted hybrid loot that will just add to the clone and drone grind problem and is off subject.
EDIT: I realize that the quote is not that clear but I have a big headache right now so I will answer questions rather than simply rewrite the whole thing.

All and all the chart seems like crumbs since once again 98% higher worthless is still 98% worthless......... Your examples for new loot hybrids with shroud effects and improved versions of random loot effects are still pending.

[SableShadow]

Etc. The problem with this is it lacks verity and confines it just to the named item context and doesn't generate a random verity

Why is this a problem? If the goal is making chest l00t more desireable, what does it matter that the items are named?



All and all the chart seems like crumbs since once again 98% higher worthless is still 98% worthless

Doesn't your OP say "this is very powerful, but really, really rare, so it's ok". How are you going to make these things "really, really rare" w/o having a lot of other stuff that's "junk"?

[Talon_Moonshadow]

It has been longer than I can remmeber that I pulled something from a chest that I really liked.

The easiest fix is just to take a look at the random tables and make a few minor adjustments.

After lvl 8 or so.....no suit or armor or shield that does not start with +5 is ever going to get kept. (possible exception of fearsome)

So at some point (not sure what lvl, but definately by the time I'm opening Vale chests) I don't want to ever see any armor or shield come out of a chest that does not start with +5!!!!

Easiest fix.

Other fixes are not quite so cut and dry....but take off the minor usless powers of items (If I never see another Power I item again, that alone would make me happier)

Who needs +3 to a skill after lvl 5-7 for instance? Definately not at lvl 16!

Anyway....just make some minor adjustments so that higher lvl loot actually has attributes that are useful and meaningful in some way.

Otherwise it is expensive garbage.

[osirisisis]

Borror explained this very well... I'm not sure why you dismiss his response as "empty".

There is ZERO fun in watching someone else solo a quest while you do nothing...

This concept false. Never is a party member "doing nothing" unless they choice to stand there and do nothing .... this statement is a very over exaggerated lie, there has never been a time where because of gear other players in the party r not viable in some way to party in some part or in the majority of the quest. For example in very lopsided contexts I might out kill the other tank 3 to 1 in the most extreme cases, but yet he killed 16 mobs in the quest, thats something not nothing. And even if it was true is would still be a matter of opinion, Theres many quests in the game I would love to walk late into where the party has cleared the way and done everything so I just come in and we take the end boss and its over, but even in that context I did play a small part not nothing.

So this blanket false statement with your opinion behind it only holds merit for you and not me.

I don't know why you can't understand that...

I definitely agree that random loot needs to be re-vamped. I like your ideas, except for the lowering the ML part... No need for that.

If you dont lower the ml lvl then they just become plain jane random loot again, which means that theres no change.

I agree with Borro that most greensteel effects need to be added to the random loot generator... That would do a lot to make random loot more interesting...

Anything Added to the random loot table should help it, but how much help is the question.

Much better post Osisisisiririri. At least you're offering constructive suggestions instead of moaning about the w/p change.

your moaning about me moaning is hypocritical, and the reason w/p is such a focus is because of the str. it gives random loot

[osirisisis]

It has been longer than I can remmeber that I pulled something from a chest that I really liked.

The easiest fix is just to take a look at the random tables and make a few minor adjustments.

After lvl 8 or so.....no suit or armor or shield that does not start with +5 is ever going to get kept. (possible exception of fearsome)

So at some point (not sure what lvl, but definately by the time I'm opening Vale chests) I don't want to ever see any armor or shield come out of a chest that does not start with +5!!!!

Easiest fix.

Other fixes are not quite so cut and dry....but take off the minor usless powers of items (If I never see another Power I item again, that alone would make me happier)

Who needs +3 to a skill after lvl 5-7 for instance? Definately not at lvl 16!

Anyway....just make some minor adjustments so that higher lvl loot actually has attributes that are useful and meaningful in some way.

Otherwise it is expensive garbage.

I think these ideas will help and are good, but random loot is going to need alot more with this to really catch up

[osirisisis]

Why is this a problem? If the goal is making chest l00t more desireable, what does it matter that the items are named?

Name items are good random rare items with min lvl requirement similar name items random spread out to any chest and named items R better....Then just named items.


Doesn't your OP say "this is very powerful, but really, really rare, so it's ok". How are you going to make these things "really, really rare" w/o having a lot of other stuff that's "junk"?

because its directing pouring strength into the weak deluded system. Instead of having 98% junk and 2% good U now have 96.9% junk, 2% good 1% great and .01% grand and .001% great grand

[SableShadow]

Name items are good random rare items with min lvl requirement similar name items random spread out to any chest and named items R better....Then just named items.

I was thinking named items because then you've got a dev designing (hopefully) a useful combination of prefix/suffix/material rather than banking on the random l00t generator.

I also think some subset of crafting with chest l00t would go a long way to making it more desireable....look what happened when they gave us collectable bags + small but noticeable crafted buffs. We went from ignoring collectables altogether to zooming in on collectable nodes.


because its directing pouring strength into the weak deluded system. Instead of having 98% junk and 2% good U now have 96.9% junk, 2% good 1% great and .01% grand and .001% great grand

Well...I have icy burst of greater ele bane and holy of greater undead bane blunts. These are rare, and I think they qualify as "great" rather than good.

I think the tools are there already, really...people just don't run for them because of their rarity.

Couldn't you boil your post down to say:

"Add uncommon, rare, and very rare categories. Uncommon keeps the ml of the drop, but pulls from a table 2 levels up; rare from 4 levels up; very rare from 6 levels up." You could concievably pull level 25 items with ml's of 19...kinda sorta "The BAM l00t Effect".

I could see that working, if the l00t tables were also tweaked a little so that when you pull an uncommon/rare/very rare you get a useful combination more often.

[Borror0]

For the love of God, osirisisis, please identify your replies better.

OK borror since you got something with some substance here I'll take you off the ignore list for this reply.
For the record, this is the third time you are given the opportunity to reply to this. Better late than never.

I would say that lvl 12, 14, 16 and higher random loot becomes about 98% worthless
Not sure what to understand here.

Do you mean currently or with my suggestion? What you mean it not clear.

and on the subject of shields and armor what can possibly compete with icyremnet, hound shields, and dragon touch armor. I dont think that making the loot table drop a higher level worthless at lower level chests is going to make any differance that matters.
Well, first of all I would nerf all Dodge bonuses by giving them a type. That would kill the Icy Raiment, more or so.

Then, I would add item enchantment that are not present on the current dragontouched armors, so that the choice between armor X or a dragontouched armor would pose itself. I think the most notable would be new AC bonus types like Sacred, Profane, etc. and Green Steel effects like Freezing guard and Lighting Strike Guard.

I would also remove the animation/waiting to putting an armor. The only reason it is implemented in DDO, is because it is that way in D&D. It serves no gameplay reason. Docents are already that way and there is nothing unbalancing about it (and most games also don't have that either, and they're doing fine). However, it would have the advantage to make owning multiple armors more attractive than it is now thusm aking balancing random loot and named loot easier.

Oh, and it would reduce the number robe wearing fighters...

Details ....... would U post an example of a hybrid item with the above idea
For a shield, I could go with:

+5 Mithril Tower Shield of Greater False Life, ML 14

Sadly, that is the best example I can give with shields because there is a serious lack of good enchantment to go on shields. Though, I hope you see that it a tremendous improvement over the existing system already. Obviously, the developers would have to open their Magic Item Compendium and try to find good ones to import to DDO. Also, as previously mentioned, Green Steel enchantment could be imported to random loot (Healing Amplification, Exceptional Ability, etc.)

For weapon, I might go with something like:

+5 Holy Longsword of Superior Bane (6d6), ML 18
+5 Vorpal Dwarven Axe of Superior Bane, ML 20

I don't think I need to explain how better that is, in comparison to the current system.

As a side note, many new high powered enchantments will be required.

I dont think that making the loot table drop a higher level worthless at lower level chests is going to make any differance that matters.
Did you miss the part where I said I would add new enchantments and improve current ones?

Of the top of my head, as mere brainstorming:

Make materials far more common than they are, at later levels
Improve Vertigo, Tendon Slice and Shatter in the way Weighted was

Make Trip, Sunder and Hamstring better so that these effects are at least desirable

Add Superior Bane, Improved Paralysing, etc.
Add useful Green Steel enchantments to weapon loot tables
Remove Inferno, Erosion, Efficacy and the like from the loot tables
Remove spell points increasing effects from the weapon tables (Power, Magi, Wizardry, etc.)
Change the base price modifier on Seeker so it is worth how much the space it takes
Add accessory effects to shields (and Green steel ones, among them)

There are more others and I am sure I could have good ideas if I was to open my Magic Item Compendium, but I am feeling lazy today.

What is important to note for Turbine is to not repeat the mistake again. Hopefully, this will be such a pain in the butt to fix that they will avoid messing up again. Truth be told, they needlessly made named loot better than it should be. Clearly, Belt of Brute Strength could have been a +5 Strength Belt of Improved False Life and it would have been a great piece of loot in the days.

Next time, they'll have to be careful about not making raid loot/named loot too powerful.

The problem with this is it lacks verity and confines it just to the named item context and doesn't generate a random verity
True, and I don't deny that. However, it is a bandaid on the problem.

It allows them more item to fix the problem. It's not a perfect fix, but it is an acceptable temporary solution.

Your examples for new loot hybrids with shroud effects and improved versions of random loot effects are still pending.
"Still pending"? In case you didn't know, I can't read your post until you pressed "Submit Reply".

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

The only time people actually go out of their way to loot chests rather than just doing raids or looking for named items is Festivus, when people are madly collecting gold coins for the 1 in a million chance of getting a +4 tome.

While I am obviously finding it hard to read the original post without having full written evidence of the original poster's credentials, this idea is among one of his best; anything that reinvigorates the loot tables is good.

I'm inclined to think that these items should be bind to account though - use them to twink your alts but don't pollute the marketplace. But then maybe the true value of the gold coins and +4 tomes was from their tradability...?

Garth

[Borror0]

Why is this a problem? If the goal is making chest l00t more desireable, what does it matter that the items are named?
There are three problems with that approach:

Less customizable than random loot
More time-consuming then random loot for a developer as loot as to be made for every chest in the game
Having random loot being money taking place in your inventory looks bad


So at some point (not sure what lvl, but definately by the time I'm opening Vale chests) I don't want to ever see any armor or shield come out of a chest that does not start with +5!!!!
If you didn't read it, that is what my suggestion permits.

It happens later than what you ask for (by level 20), but it does happen.

If I never see another Power I item again, that alone would make me happier
That would also be solved by my suggestion, as with that kind of scaling it is hard to have a +1 enchantment when you've got +10 to make fit in.

EDIT: Totally off-topic but: new DDO1liner! (http://www.ddo1liners.co.uk/narchives/n005.jpg)

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I think these ideas will help and are good, but random loot is going to need alot more with this to really catch up

I don't really want random loot to compete with raid loot. Just be something worth keeping.

More hand designed named loot would be another great plus to the game.

+1 Holy Silver Longsword of Lesser Evil Outsider Bane. for instance.

+1 Adamantine Light Mace of Lesser Construct Bane.

+1 Silver Ghost Touch Light Mace of Lesser Undead Bane.

Three minor items that I would never sell!

[Borror0]

I don't really want random loot to compete with raid loot. Just be something worth keeping.
That is self contradictory. Random is in competition with raid loot and named loot, already.

The problem is that one beats the other by a very wide margins.

[Borror0]

While we are on the topic of random loot, I would change the law of ML level according to quests.

As it stands, twinking is a grave problem.

To remedy that:

I would make quests drop loot near their level, instead of loot three level lower than their level. In other words, it would not be possible to loot a ML 12 item out of a level 12 quest, when it was only possible to loot a ML 8 item before.
To not penalize those running quests higher than their level (or on Elite), the owner of the item (character, not player) will benefit from a -2 ML to the item. This applies to the player looting the item, and not to the one who got the item from the chest (which would mean that a ML 22 item would have to be traded in the chest to be a ML 20 item).

Then, all that Turbine would have to do is also add better and more static loot. And add static rewards to more quests.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

That is self contradictory. Random is in competition with raid loot and named loot, already.

The problem is that one beats the other by a very wide margins.

I don't see it as contridictory.
Raid loot, even for those who raid a lot, is rare.
Random loot can be worth keeping even if it is behind raid loot in power.

I know different people have differnet opinons. Some think the loot we have now is overpowered.....thus the complaints about +1 lvl loot weekends.

But my own opinion is I just want to see random loot be something cool....something I really have to think about selling or not.

Right now it is just expensive garbage.
Every chest.
It's to the point now that I can't even remmeber that last time I pulled something that I thought would be good for a lowbie....I'm literally passing down the same items I've had for over a year now to my lowbies as they lvl up.

Nothing I pull is worth keeping. one in a thousand, maybe. But even that is pushing it.

Why go for an optional chest if you never get anything good out of a chest?

Right now the only reason to do a loot run, is to get more cash to maybe....maybe...be able to afford something nice off the AH. And even then. anything good there is sooooo expensive, that all my cash just goes to pots/consumables.


And IMO it would take just a little tweaking to make a huge impact.

[Borror0]

...thus the complaints about +1 lvl loot weekends.
We must have not read the same complaint because the complaints I have read were:

The +1 loot did not actually lead to better loot since Turbine didn't raise the loot tables.
Even with +1 loot, the loot still is junk.


And IMO it would take just a little tweaking to make a huge impact.
Really? I think it is so broken that it would require a ton of work to get it right.

[Thrudh]

Truth be told, they needlessly made named loot better than it should be. Clearly, Belt of Brute Strength could have been a +5 Strength Belt of Improved False Life and it would have been a great piece of loot in the days.

Next time, they'll have to be careful about not making raid loot/named loot too powerful.

This is an important point...

Like Tharnes' Goggles... I mean come one... Start right off with True Seeing and the best possible sneak attack bonus? Those goggles would have been awesome with +3/+5 sneak attack damage... but no, they had to jump right to max possible right out of the gate...

Should have saved +5/+8 for the loot tables....

[Borror0]

Never is a party member "doing nothing" unless they choice to stand there and do nothing .... this statement is a very over exaggerated lie
While it is exaggerated, it does not make the concept false. Players like to feel like they are an useful part of a party, and not a dead weight.

Perhaps you don't mind, but understand that there is a significant part of the population that do mind and that it is in Turbine's interest to please both parties. That means adapting their design so there is no major imbalance, as players who share your opinion won't mind a game that is balanced while many players would mind an imbalanced game.

[osirisisis]

For the love of God, osirisisis, please identify your replies better.

For the record, this is the third time you are given the opportunity to reply to this. Better late than never.

Not sure what to understand here.

Do you mean currently or with my suggestion? What you mean it not clear.

Well, first of all I would nerf all Dodge bonuses by giving them a type. That would kill the Icy Raiment, more or so.

Then, I would add item enchantment that are not present on the current dragontouched armors, so that the choice between armor X or a dragontouched armor would pose itself. I think the most notable would be new AC bonus types like Sacred, Profane, etc. and Green Steel effects like Freezing guard and Lighting Strike Guard.

I would also remove the animation/waiting to putting an armor. The only reason it is implemented in DDO, is because it is that way in D&D. It serves no gameplay reason. Docents are already that way and there is nothing unbalancing about it (and most games also don't have that either, and they're doing fine). However, it would have the advantage to make owning multiple armors more attractive than it is now thusm aking balancing random loot and named loot easier.

Oh, and it would reduce the number robe wearing fighters...

For a shield, I could go with:

+5 Mithril Tower Shield of Greater False Life, ML 14

Sadly, that is the best example I can give with shields because there is a serious lack of good enchantment to go on shields. Though, I hope you see that it a tremendous improvement over the existing system already. Obviously, the developers would have to open their Magic Item Compendium and try to find good ones to import to DDO. Also, as previously mentioned, Green Steel enchantment could be imported to random loot (Healing Amplification, Exceptional Ability, etc.)

For weapon, I might go with something like:

+5 Holy Longsword of Superior Bane (6d6), ML 18
+5 Vorpal Dwarven Axe of Superior Bane, ML 20

I don't think I need to explain how better that is, in comparison to the current system.

As a side note, many new high powered enchantments will be required.

Did you miss the part where I said I would add new enchantments and improve current ones?

Of the top of my head, as mere brainstorming:

Make materials far more common than they are, at later levels
Improve Vertigo, Tendon Slice and Shatter in the way Weighted was

Make Trip, Sunder and Hamstring better so that these effects are at least desirable


Add Superior Bane, Improved Paralysing, etc.
Add useful Green Steel enchantments to weapon loot tables
Remove Inferno, Erosion, Efficacy and the like from the loot tables
Remove spell points increasing effects from the weapon tables (Power, Magi, Wizardry, etc.)
Change the base price modifier on Seeker so it is worth how much the space it takes
Add accessory effects to shields (and Green steel ones, among them)

There are more others and I am sure I could have good ideas if I was to open my Magic Item Compendium, but I am feeling lazy today.

What is important to note for Turbine is to not repeat the mistake again. Hopefully, this will be such a pain in the butt to fix that they will avoid messing up again. Truth be told, they needlessly made named loot better than it should be. Clearly, Belt of Brute Strength could have been a +5 Strength Belt of Improved False Life and it would have been a great piece of loot in the days.

Next time, they'll have to be careful about not making raid loot/named loot too powerful.

True, and I don't deny that. However, it is a bandaid on the problem.

It allows them more item to fix the problem. It's not a perfect fix, but it is an acceptable temporary solution.

"Still pending"? In case you didn't know, I can't read your post until you pressed "Submit Reply".

I talked about improved power 5's and s Superior Bane 6 months ago.

Improved power 5's and Superior Bane put into the loot table would be a great improvement as long as in every case on normal hard and elite they were more viable then any tier 3 weapon vs there specific mob type.

Adding shroud effects to random loot and adding any effect in the game to random loot would be an improvement. I'm still waiting for one of your examples.

"better late the never" there was no point in replying, what you said it had very little substance, why lvl 4 and lvl 6 loots comes out of lvl 10 and 12 chests and has not been fixed by turbine baffles me today, and has been discussed for the last 2 1/2 years, you then update with some sugar coated ideas and some confirmations of my own ideas, which 2 of them I like:

1. Removing worthless loot from the table should have been done along time ago. EX: sup efficacy, blank X of power 1, +2 con of haggle 7, etc.

2. Introducing any effect to the random loot system including shroud effects.

Then you attack dodge bounce which I used to agree with this.. but then I changed. Dodge bounce is in some ways like w/p it was a mutation that turned out to be evolution. Dodge bounce is very controversial but after building my 6 th tank and making her a 18/1/1 ranger rouge monk, I'm totally sold, Ac dodge bounce dex base exploit build is by the most entertaining tank I have ever made in that there so diverse and independent compared compared to there high DPS no AC that matters, front line grunt counter part.

Dodge bounce is probably the only thing can save shields and Armor:
I would go with 4 x lvl mutis.
Example +5 mitheral FP of dodge + 2 min lvl 16 is probably the only piece of random loot that would have a chance of viability vs DT armor full plate armor

On shields your comment just confirms my post.. U said make +5 mith tower of GFL min lvl 14 when this should be 19. Once again I would go to dodge here a +5 mith tower of +2 dodge is probably the only thing that would stand a chance against the hound counter parts. Gfl is easier to obtain in that theres DT armor where its common and the much hard to obtain titan belt.

[osirisisis]

While it is exaggerated, it does not make the concept false. Players like to feel like they are an useful part of a party, and not a dead weight.

Perhaps you don't mind, but understand that there is a significant part of the population that do mind and that it is in Turbine's interest to please both parties. That means adapting their design so there is no major imbalance, as players who share your opinion won't mind a game that is balanced while many players would mind an imbalanced game.

I would say this is the context:
Noobs and casual players make up the majority and say power gaming zergers R no fun.

Power gamers say noobs and casual players are to slow and have higher failual rate and R no fun, so they made elite guilds and channels.

Noobs and casual players make up the majority of the subs. base so turbine make a corporate decision to turn the game into clone drone craft grind to some what better balance.

What I would like to see out of this is that instead of turbine selling out to the majority: Have them invest the extra money in a super server that holds all the servers with less lag then we have on 5 servers, introduce random loot priority with great random loot improvements and situating the economy with the suggested changes and now and all the power gamers can play in there power gamer channel of all the power gamer guilds.... and the noobs and casual gamers can play with each other on the lfm list.

This way everyone's happy.

I love power gameing zerg fest and if I only ran with other power gamers and could get a party of power gamers 24 7 and never had offend another noob or casual gamer again with my zerging mantalitiy, I be more then fine with that.

[osirisisis]

I was thinking named items because then you've got a dev designing (hopefully) a useful combination of prefix/suffix/material rather than banking on the random l00t generator.

I also think some subset of crafting with chest l00t would go a long way to making it more desireable....look what happened when they gave us collectable bags + small but noticeable crafted buffs. We went from ignoring collectables altogether to zooming in on collectable nodes.



Well...I have icy burst of greater ele bane and holy of greater undead bane blunts. These are rare, and I think they qualify as "great" rather than good.

I think the tools are there already, really...people just don't run for them because of their rarity.

Couldn't you boil your post down to say:

"Add uncommon, rare, and very rare categories. Uncommon keeps the ml of the drop, but pulls from a table 2 levels up; rare from 4 levels up; very rare from 6 levels up." You could concievably pull level 25 items with ml's of 19...kinda sorta "The BAM l00t Effect".

I could see that working, if the l00t tables were also tweaked a little so that when you pull an uncommon/rare/very rare you get a useful combination more often.

I think either of the ideas yours or mine would be a desperately needed improvement, I would wounder if very rare and - lvl 6 would be enuff. Mineral 2, Lighting strike, and radance tier 3s are powerful....ok lets take an example.

Triple positive Khophesh vs +5 holy burst of pure good Khophesh min lvl 14 under your very rare system

Triple : 1d10(base)+2d6(holy)+4d6(burst on crit)+3d6(on 20 blast) clickie of res and 3%-5% Greater disruption vs 1d8+2d6+4d6(burst on crit)+1d6

I would rather have the triple and given that the latter is (very rare) the triple is much easier to obtain..... I think if it takes more time to get the very rare it should be a better weapon.

[BigBadBarry]

...Then you attack dodge bounce which I used to agree with this.. but then I changed. Dodge bounce is in some ways like w/p it was a mutation that turned out to be evolution. Dodge bounce is very controversial but after building my 6 th tank and making her a 18/1/1 ranger rouge monk, I'm totally sold, Ac dodge bounce dex base exploit build is by the most entertaining tank I have ever made in that there so diverse and independent compared compared to there high DPS no AC that matters, front line grunt counter part.

Os,

Can you clarify mate...

You used to agree that they should nerf dodge bonuses as it was too overpowered. Then you joined the club and made an exploiter/godbuild and now you disagree?

[Borror0]

I talked about improved power 5's and s Superior Bane 6 months ago in a post that got hammer by U and others
Oh really?


While not diving into the specifics, better high level item enchantments are needed. Improved version of some of the previous enchantment do not seem to be a bad idea. This is not limited to Banishing, Smiting, Paralyzing and Disruption. Any previous enchantment should be given an improved version.

Some current "trash enchantment" could also be given a little more love, possibly.
As you can see, I was NOT opposed to the idea.

As for Superior Bane, I don't think I said anything about it however Korverk did:


That type of Superior Bane should at the least have a minimum level of 20. A +10 Enhancement bonus with an extra 10d6 damage is insane. For a minimum level of 14, I'd recommend something along the lines of +6 and +6d6.
While my proposal is more powerful than his, it is less powerful than yours.

[...] as long as in every case on normal hard and elite they were more viable then any tier 3 weapon vs there specific mob type.
Not sure if I should agree on that. I would probably word it "As long as a good Superior Bane/Power 5 is better than a tier three." instead.

A bad paralyser or a bad Superior Bane should not beat a tier three Green Steel weapon, though I don't think you disagree. I'm only clarifying.

Adding shroud effects to random loot and adding any effect in the game to random loot would be an improvement. I'm still waiting for one of your examples.

I am not going to take the time to evaluate the power level of each Green Steel enchantment and try to find the proper base price modifier. That would be far too time-consuming and I have way better ways to spend my time. I think you can easily picture the amount of damage such weapons could dish out.

If you need an example of the kind of improvement that my proposal could deal, I have already given you some.

Then you attack dodge bounce which I used to agree with this.. but then I changed.
I'll explain you my reasoning and hopefully convince you to change your position.

The reason as to why I want to change the bonus of Dodge bonuses, is to allow better control on the AC of players.

As it currently stands. Icy Raiment is a +4 AC to anyone who owns it. That is the way Dodge bonus works. Anyone without one is at -4 AC, which makes it of a "must have". The goal is not to nerf any defensive tank build, but to allow greater gear customization.

If there are equivalent bonus of +1, +2 and +3 coming from multiple item slots, then players have more choices over how to gear their character.

I'll repeat again: this is not an AC nerf.

Gfl is easier to obtain in that theres DT armor where its common and the much hard to obtain titan belt.
It depends on if you got better things you wish to gain from your DT armor and belt slot.

[osirisisis]

Os,

Can you clarify mate...

You used to agree that they should nerf dodge bonuses as it was too overpowered. Then you joined the club and made an exploiter/godbuild and now you disagree?

Sure

The Easy Andswer:

ya it sure did look like an exploit build, but now with mod 9 giving the other tanks some great help I think is not as bad as mod 8, still better but not as better, and after playing 5 other tanks before this one and now playing this one I'm enjoying it so much that I hope they dont nurf it.................. Your right I coverted and now I'm bi est

The Elaborate Andswer:


The dex based ranger hybrid tank has some huge holes in it that can easily be called exploits.

1st Dodge bounce stacking with it's self except of the same type.
Example +2 dodge item stacks with +3 dodge item, but + 3 dodge will not stack with a +3 dodge.

No other AC bounce will stack with itself so on the surface basic logic would say that because its not consistent its probably a mistake in the design, thus taking advantage of it may be considered an exploit.

2nd AC bracer were originally designed for casters in the lvl 10 capped area. A caster could take little dex in there base score and put on AC bracers and have some AC that would matter to a small degree, on the other side of the coin a cleric could get +5 mith FP in the lvl 10 capped area and have some AC that matter to a slight degree,
No caster was going to have a +11 dex modifier bounce score so it didnt seem like a problem,
But rangers now with dex enhancements can put on the icy rem, get +11 dex to AC +4 dodge, +8 bracers and pull an extra +8 AC out of thin area. On the surface this could be called an exploit, because it doesnt look like original design intent.

3rd Some players purposed that the idea that you got the AC bounce with monk when not in a centered context, was flawed by design and should be changed, the was the true cherry on top that sparked the ranger AC hybrid.

With these 3 concepts I found it a safe to bet and agree that it was and exploited build and needed nurf.

But turbine came up with a different line of thinking.

First there used to be 2 types of tank
Sword and board AC or 2wf/2hf DPS
and players had to choose.
But as time went on a hybrid evolved with the introduction of the monk class
This hybrid was superior because if U look at it on a scale this is what it looks like

Durability Scale:
Sword and Board : 8
DPS: 2
Hybrid: 7

Efficacy Scale:
Sword and board : 3
DPS: 9
Hybrid: 7

Total scores
Sword and board 11
DPS 12
Hybrid 14
So it looked like some kinda nurf was in order

But instead of nurfing the next generation they improved the former.

New mod 9 Prestige feats for intimate turtle sword and board builds loot pretty strong grant them the top builds for AC even over dex based hybrids

New mod 9 Prestige feats for 2wf/2hf also look pretty strong extending there lead in DPS output.

The hybrid is getting a nice boost to hit attack also with rangers get atleast to extra swings per round but take -2 AC .

I still like the hybrid because even tho your not going to the best DPS or the Best AC your going to be close in both categorizes and the synergy of having both makes the build over all more efficient in my opinion.
Also the hybrid has great diversity:

1. With the rouge in there and a +15 item U can pretty much spot and disable 97% of the traps in the game.

2. UMD for tele scrolls, heal scrolls, and rez scrolls is a nice perk.

3. It will still be the best effect tank because it will put out the most hits per round in that with tempest 3, it will vorpal, disrupt, and para better then all.

4. Many shot is nice in some very small contexts.

5. Solo's well

So as I played this build finally after building 5 of the former tank builds I found it more enjoyable to play and more efficient in the game.

Its almost a master of all trades but yet still a master at none.

So my opinion is now bi est because im enjoy it ...

So lets see what mod 9 brings ............
In a none bi est context if some sort of nurf was still in line I would say:
U would have to go after the dodge bounce stack which is probably less attractive because it would hurt other builds that R not considered imbalanced or improve the formers tanks even more.
The monk AC if nurf would hurt the build to much.
And the bracers if nurf would also hurt the build to much.

[Borror0]

The dex based ranger hybrid tank has some huge holes in it that can easily be called exploits.
The term 'Exploiter' comes from a joke about how good the build is. As in, "It's too powerful to be legit. It must be an exploit."

It has nothing to do with "huge holes in it that can easily be called exploits".

The dex based ranger hybrid tank has some huge holes in it that can easily be called exploits.
The Exploiter (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=168687) build is a Str-based character, not Dex-based.

This hybrid was superior because if U look at it on a scale this is what it looks like
I guess you could describe it like that.

If we were to put it in words, we could say "The Exploiter build sacrifices very little DPS for way too much AC" and I would give a 8 for DPS, not a 7.

But instead of nurfing the next generation they improved the former.
It does seem to be what they are doing, slowly, and this is why I am not a strong proponent of a nerf anymore. I think one will be eventually needed but I think it will be interesting to see how Turbine will play their cards.

However, I'll say it again: this is a Dodge bonus nerf and not a Exploiter build nerf.

Why would one do this?

Item with Dodge bonus are automatically must-haves for AC builds
Stackable bonus makes balancing harder
Allows to balance the gap between haves and have-nots more easily
Allows for more creativity in item design

However, it would not lead into a AC reduction for Exploiter builds.

I will explain it again, and hopefully be clearer. The idea is to change the type of those items from Dodge to something else that does not exist yet. However, the AC total will not lower from its current form. Therefore, it can't be considered as a direct nerf.

It improves those who were behind (ie those still looking for their IR) because smaller bonuses (+1, +2 and +3) could be introduced to the loot tables (either as a random accessory enchantment or found on other named items). It would also allow more gear customization as not wearing an IR would not result in a 4 AC loss, but only a 1-2 AC loss.

We could say it is a way it is a way to nerf IR without nerfing monk splash AC directly.

[Junts]

The term 'Exploiter' comes from a joke about how good the build is. As in, "It's too powerful to be legit. It must be an exploit."

It has nothing to do with "huge holes in it that can easily be called exploits".

The Exploiter (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=168687) build is a Str-based character, not Dex-based.

I guess you could describe it like that.

If we were to put it in words, we could say "The Exploiter build sacrifices very little DPS for way too much AC" and I would give a 8 for DPS, not a 7.

It does seem to be what they are doing, slowly, and this is why I am not a strong proponent of a nerf anymore. I think one will be eventually needed but I think it will be interesting to see how Turbine will play their cards.

However, I'll say it again: this is a Dodge bonus nerf and not a Exploiter build nerf.

Why would one do this?

Item with Dodge bonus are automatically must-haves for AC builds
Stackable bonus makes balancing harder
Allows to balance the gap between haves and have-nots more easily
Allows for more creativity in item design

However, it would not lead into a AC reduction for Exploiter builds.

I will explain it again, and hopefully be clearer. The idea is to change the type of those items from Dodge to something else that does not exist yet. However, the AC total will not lower from its current form. Therefore, it can't be considered as a direct nerf.

It improves those who were behind (ie those still looking for their IR) because smaller bonuses (+1, +2 and +3) could be introduced to the loot tables (either as a random accessory enchantment or found on other named items). It would also allow more gear customization as not wearing an IR would not result in a 4 AC loss, but only a 1-2 AC loss.

We could say it is a way it is a way to nerf IR without nerfing monk splash AC directly.


Kinda funny, I don't think a dodge ac nerf is needed, but wouldn't care at this point, since I'm only using one dodge bonus item ..

Making dodge bonuses like other bonuses would remove 3 ac from dex-based (raiments) ac toons and 2 from chaosgarde/shield users .. that's not really leveling the field so much as moving everyone (but those using triple levik's..) back 2-3 ac.

Not sure that's really that big a deal, to be honest.

[Borror0]

Making dodge bonuses like other bonuses would remove [...]
Stopping you there. I never said that I would give all Dodge item the same bonus type, did I?

[Junts]

Stopping you there. I never said that I would give all Dodge item the same bonus type, did I?


Kind of assumed your intention was to just make it a type that behaved like all other types (eg, not stacking, highest only), which is imo the only even remotely possible change (though that is unlikely), they're probably not going to be going back and re-typing ac bonuses entirely from dodge to insight.

[Borror0]

Kind of assumed your intention was to just make it a type that behaved like all other types (eg, not stacking, highest only), which is imo the only even remotely possible change (though that is unlikely), they're probably not going to be going back and re-typing ac bonuses entirely from dodge to insight.
DDO has seen three sacking rules for bonus types:

Non-stacking bonus
Stacking bonuses
Exceptional bonuses

At first, and for a very long time, DDO used the PnP stacking rules for Dodge bonuses from equipment (and still does for Dodge bonuses from character abilities). However, those rules, applied on items, have several flaws and that is why Turbine changed those rules with Module 8.

The problems were:

Huge gap between those who own an item and those who don't
Each item added with a Dodge bonus to AC is required to be efficient
Limits the creation of which item can or cannot be created

The solution brought by Turbine addresses the last two, but the first one still remains.

Since the bonus of the same size do not stack, Turbine now has more freedom in item creation. For example, they not can create a pair of +2 Dodge Necklace with another bonus on it, thus leaving the choice to the player as to which item meets their need the best.

It allows questions like the following to be raised:

"Does my character gain more from wearing a +2 Dodge Necklace of Heavy Fortification and having his bracer slot open or from wearing Chaosgarde and having his bracer slot open as I can get Heavy Fortification from another source without much problem?"
However, there is still a huge gap between those who have one and those who don't. And, it introduces a new problem.

When implementing the new Dodge rules, Turbine did not only needlessly broke the PnP rules but they also broke the continuity within their own game. All of sudden, Dodge bonus on items do not act the same than Dodge bonus from class abilities. Oh, but there is one exception! Bonus from the Alchemical ritual do stack, however!

Not only does this make no sense, but it is needlessly confusing.

As an attempt to solve both problems, here is what I suggest:

The Dodge bonus from Chattering Ring and the one from Dragontouched Armor become non-stackable bonus A
The Dodge bonus from Chaosgarde and the one from Icy Raiment become non-stackable bonus B

Both bonuses would be new bonuses that currently don't exist in DDO. They can be either imported from PnP or made up.

It doesn't really matter to me and both path have their advantages.

[osirisisis]

Lets stay on subject gentle men which is improveing the loot table not how U think dodge bounce needs to be nurfed.

[Borror0]

Lets stay on subject gentle men which is improveing the loot table not how U think dodge bounce needs to be nurfed.
Nerfing Dodge bonuses would improve random loot, or at least make it easier to.

[Aesop]

So Borr

Chattering Ring and DT Dodge Bonus would become say an Insight Bonus to AC

while Chaosguard and Icy Raiments become a Natural Armor Bonus...

or something like that


as for improving the loot tables...

If Armor had a point to it that may help the loot tables a little, then you could add properties like Armor Spikes with Offensive Bonuses (or Guard Effects) on them to Armor... maybe using the Altar to combine them. Armor should also add to Blocking DR. Maybe add Half the AC Value to Blocking DR.


Same thing With Shields. Have Shield Spikes with different Effects that can be added to a Shield via the Altar. This would be better if they would add some form of a PASSIVE shield Bash, sort of like the THF Glancing Blows. Maybe on the Second Attack in the sequence and then if you take Improved Shield Bash you get a second one on the 4th Attack in the chain... or something like that.


Some actually useful Eternal Wands for Casters or Staves that have Passive Effects like Potency AND Active effects like Eternal Spell Casting effects that return over time with higher level spells and DCs. Maybe a Staff called Icicle that has Greater Ice Lore and Greater Glaciation VIII and Casts Polar Ray as a 15th level Caster 5 times with the charges resetting one at a time once every 90 Sec or something... Although that's more like a named item and not a random one... but you could have similar effects on random created items as well.


Crafting materials... though not to such an extent as they are in the shroud. Though while in Shavarath maybe some of the Shroud Materials will drop in quests there so that we don't become so insanely bored in the shroud. we'd still need to run it to get to the Altars, but some of the ingredients may be found outside.


well its a couple ideas...

Aesop

[Borror0]

or something like that
I would actually open D&D book and look up bonus types that would fit the logic of those items.

If Armor had a point to it that may help the loot tables a little
That's why I really like my idea of slowly reducing the impact of the enhancement bonus to armor on the ML, as the item gains in ML.

A fullplate that is not +5 Mithril is pretty much junk, unless it would have a new uber enchantment (that cannot currently be obtained) on top of it.

[redoubt]

Starts a little to easy and scales too quickly.

Start at 1/1000. -2 to level is cool. Add say 25% to durability (double is crazy considering where it ends up.)

Then: 1/10,000 for the second tier of these. Still at -2 to level. +50% durability.

1/100,000 for third. Maybe up it to -3 to min level (these are more powerful items, having them at too low a level would be bad I think.) +75% durability.

1/1,000,000 for the fourth. -3 or -4 to min level and +100% durability (i.e. double normal.)

I think unbound would be fun for these because they would be amusing trading pieces.

[Aesop]

That's why I really like my idea of slowly reducing the impact of the enhancement bonus to armor on the ML, as the item gains in ML.

A fullplate that is not +5 Mithril is pretty much junk, unless it would have a new uber enchantment (that cannot currently be obtained) on top of it.

Kind of a Slippery slope there isn't it?

Although I suppose you could just have the Add Armor Spikes thing I was saying and then have 5-10 Enhancement levels of defensive (or offensive) effects strapped on those. I mean Armor Spikes would be enchanted Separately from the Armor in this case acting more like a Weapon or Article of Wondrous Item than just as a part of the armor.


So your +5 Fullplate of Uberness could have additional Ouch Guard Effect. Though I don't think that will change the desire for Mithril FP at all... it would give a reason to actually wear armor as opposed to a Robe which couldn't have Spikes on it.. well at least not and make any sense :D


Aesop

[Borror0]

Kind of a Slippery slope there isn't it?
Can a +10 of armor enchantment really be that much more overpowering than a Dragontouched fullplate and the three enchantments on it?

[Aesop]

Can a +10 of armor enchantment really be that much more overpowering then Dragontouched fullplate and the three enchantments on it?

We can get +10 now as it stand ... but the problem is that nothing really interesting is on armor. Especially when compared to what is on DT Armor... so no. However, I may be misunderstanding what you are saying.

Aesop

[Borror0]

However, I may be misunderstanding what you are saying.
Currently, the base price modifier of armor has a direct relationship with the ML (ML=2*bpm) and the current max bpm is +10, at ML 20.

What I suggest is to slowly make the effect of enhancement bonus to armor (the one that ranges from +1 to +5) to slowly affect the ML less and less as the ML increases up to the point where every armor ML 20 armor would have a +5 enhancement bonus to armor. At that point, it would leave the armor with +10 base price modifier to invest anywhere.

Oh, and then you add actually useful shield and armor enchantments.

Not **** Sacred, Ghost Touch and of Bashing!

[Aesop]

Currently, the base price modifier of armor has a direct relationship with the ML (ML=2*bpm) and the current max bpm is +10, at ML 20.

What I suggest is to slowly make the effect of enhancement bonus to armor (the one that ranges from +1 to +5) to slowly affect the ML less and less as the ML increases up to the point where every armor ML 20 armor would have a +5 enhancement bonus to armor. At that point, it would leave the armor with +10 base price modifier to invest anywhere.

Oh, and then you add actually useful shield and armor enchantments.

Not **** Sacred, Ghost Touch and of Bashing!

Not to nitpick but I think +10 comes at 18 not 20.

Got any ideas for Armor Effects that wouldn't suck?

Aesop

[Borror0]

Not to nitpick but I think +10 comes at 18 not 20.
Correct.

Got any ideas for Armor Effects that wouldn't suck?
I was supposed to read the Magic Item Compendium today but have not had the time to, yet.

[Aesop]

Correct.

I was supposed to read the Magic Item Compendium today but have not had the time to, yet.

I think I have that here let me take a looksy

Aesop

[Aesop]

hmmm... I kinda likethe Healing and the Magic Eating effects.

Energy Immunity ... is probably not gonna happen

Radiant would be neat ... but not effective as written

Blinking, Blurring etc

Dragondodger... sounds neat but I think it would be difficult to code correctly

Aesop

[Aesop]

Some sort of Bane Armor may be doable

+2 AC versus X
with a Damage Shield of 2d6 vs X

could get dagerous though.

Imagine a couple intimitanks with Evil Outsider Bane Armor Shield Blocking some Cleaving Orthons :)

Aesop

[Borror0]

Some sort of Bane Armor may be doable
Talking about which... armor with weapon enchantments would have some merits. A bit like smiting does currently.

[Aesop]

Talking about which... armor with weapon enchantments would have some merits. A bit like smiting does currently.

like the Armor of Destruction? Effects that affect your weapon attacks?

Aesop

[Borror0]

like the Armor of Destruction? Effects that affect your weapon attacks?
Exactly. Destruction, Crippling, Smiting... that kind of things.

[Aesop]

Exactly. Destruction, Crippling, Smiting... that kind of things.

The only problem I have with those is the inability to work with Ranged Weapons...

I know most don't care... but it bothers me on a large level.

However beyond that I'd say that anything that transfers like that should have a higher cost associated with it... like costing an extra +1 (or maybe +2)

so say a set of armor applies the Flaming Property to the Weapons used it should cost a +2 instead of a +1... or something like that.

Aesop

[Borror0]

The only problem I have with those is the inability to work with Ranged Weapons...
Molest Codog and force him to make it work?

[Aesop]

Molest Codog and force him to make it work?

He might enjoy it ... I'm told I'm very good with my hands

and that could slow things down... I think it might be easier to talk him into submission... but for that I'll need someone a little more annoying. Unfortuanately most of those people wouldn't help because they were too busy being annoying


Aesop

[Borror0]

Unfortuanately most of those people wouldn't help because they were too busy being annoying
I would help but my annoyingness only makes Codog pass out (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=1390184#post1390184).

[osirisisis]

Nerfing Dodge bonuses would improve random loot, or at least make it easier to.

Adding dodge bonuses to random loot would improve random loot

[osirisisis]

Starts a little to easy and scales too quickly.

Start at 1/1000. -2 to level is cool. Add say 25% to durability (double is crazy considering where it ends up.)

Then: 1/10,000 for the second tier of these. Still at -2 to level. +50% durability.

1/100,000 for third. Maybe up it to -3 to min level (these are more powerful items, having them at too low a level would be bad I think.) +75% durability.

1/1,000,000 for the fourth. -3 or -4 to min level and +100% durability (i.e. double normal.)

I think unbound would be fun for these because they would be amusing trading pieces.

this wouldnt be strong enuff ... U need to get at about -6 lvl before U can begin to complete with crafted gear.... and 1 out of 1000 000 000 is way to rare

[osirisisis]

Not to nitpick but I think +10 comes at 18 not 20.

Got any ideas for Armor Effects that wouldn't suck?

Aesop

+5 mithFP lvl 8
+5 mithFP +1 dodge lvl 12
+5 mithFP +2 dodge lvl 16
+5 mithFP +3 dodge lvl 20

Power 5 armor is way to strong the last thing this games needs is mindless DPS freeks wearing vorpal armor with w/p nurfed, Which is why I think turbine only put smiting on DT armor

[Borror0]

Adding dodge bonuses to random loot would improve random loot
Except that adding Dodge to random loot would be making the problem worse, and most likely something that Turbine does not want either.

[FluffyCalico]

Your post seems to say. If I play more I should be rewarded with stuff those that don't can't get. Not because I am better but just because I play more. This is the problem with no child left behind. People who play better should be rewarded not those who play more.

[Borror0]

People who play better should be rewarded not those who play more.
Both should be rewarded.

Skills should be rewarded to cater to hardcore powergamers with mad skillz.
Playing more should be encouraged because Turbine wants us to play more.

The current problem is that there are no valuable reward for playing, in many cases.

[FluffyCalico]

Turbine wants us to play more.



Keep your sub going yes...play more hrs per day no...as that just uses more of their resources.

[osirisisis]

Except that adding Dodge to random loot would be making the problem worse, and most likely something that Turbine does not want either.

Adding Dodge to random loot in armors and shields would make it better, and how would you know what turbine doesn't want.

[Borror0]

Keep your sub going yes...play more hrs per day no...as that just uses more of their resources.
Playing on the words. Encouraging us to play more is the way to prevent us from feeling "done" with the game.

I would also argue that encouraging us to play more is, itself, something that they want. MMOs are a lot about the community and if you can harvest a nice community, it's a significant bonus. But, also, the more players you have playing at the same time the better as that enhance gameplay.

When you pay a WoW subscription, you don,t only get to play the game. You also get access to their use playerbase.

That is something no other MMO can compete with and is one of WoW's biggest advantages.

Adding Dodge to random loot in armors and shields would make it better
That is NOT the only thing one has to worry about.

There are significant advantages to parting of the bonus called "Dodge bonus".

[...] and how would you know what turbine doesn't want.
Ask yourself why it never was on random loot before.

[osirisisis]

Playing on the words. Encouraging us to play more is the way to prevent us from feeling "done" with the game.

I would also argue that encouraging us to play more is, itself, something that they want. MMOs are a lot about the community and if you can harvest a nice community, it's a significant bonus. But, also, the more players you have playing at the same time the better as that enhance gameplay.

When you pay a WoW subscription, you don,t only get to play the game. You also get access to their use playerbase.

That is something no other MMO can compete with and is one of WoW's biggest advantages.

That is NOT the only thing one has to worry about.

There are significant advantages to parting of the bonus called "Dodge bonus".

Ask yourself why it never was on random loot before.

"That is NOT the only thing one has to worry about."
I DID NOT SAY IT WAS.........and as everyone can plainly see I started this thread with a very good idea on how to improve random loot, so why would U assume that dodge bounce was the only thing I'm worried about, which of course is incorrect.

"Ask yourself why it never was on random loot before"
I dont need to ask my self this simple because turbine over the last 4 mods has turned this game form random loot/raid loot based game to craftedgear/raid loot based game. So with that trend obviously turbine doesn't care much about random loot, more so in the case of shields and armor... which thus is a good reason why U can't pull +5 Mith of +3 dodge min lvl 20

[Borror0]

[...] so why would U assume that dodge bounce was the only thing I'm worried about, which of course is incorrect.
Let me reword for you: "Making random loot appealing is only one of many concern there is to have about loot."

Do you really expect any of us to believe that you have never opened a chest and taken something out of it.
"It's not about surprises in Cracker Jacks; it's about finding driving licenses in Cracker Jacks" -my roommate

[osirisisis]

I disagree my friend ... the system is debatable and interesting but reality check here - low level content is ALREADY trivial. An Eternal Paralyzer (although very cool) would make zero difference to the fully twinked power gamer. We already blow through everything with the only limit being our ability to open higher level quests.

I would go a far as to say 90% of this game is trivial, VOD, Shroud and Hound all on Elite Probably makes up 5% of that left over 10%.

Most power gamers can zerg through almost anything these days in a reasonable lvl range.

[osirisisis]

Let me reword for you: "Making random loot appealing is only one of many concern there is to have about loot."

Making random loot more then %2 usable is the main concern and adding dodge bounces to armor and shields is one way to help them to some degree.

"It's not about surprises in Cracker Jacks; it's about finding driving licenses in Cracker Jacks" -my roommate

Well when it comes to the random loot in DDO... This Cracker Jacks box doesn't even have Cracker Jacks in it.

[Borror0]

Making random loot more then %2 usable is the main concern and adding dodge bounces to armor and shields is one way to help them to some degree.
First: Solving a problem with a solution that will create new problems that will be harder to solve is incredibly dumb.
Second: It doesn't have to be Dodge bonus. At all. Pretending otherwise will only show that you are not able to understand what I have wrote in previous posts.

Well when it comes to the random loot in DDO... This Cracker Jacks box doesn't even have Cracker Jacks in it.
Still not a reason to add driving licences to Cracker Jacks.

[FluffyCalico]

Most power gamers can zerg through almost anything these days in a reasonable lvl range.

How do you challenge people who have memorised every single thing from running it a 100 times without drop kicking those that haven't?

[Borror0]

How do you challenge people who have memorised every single thing from running it a 100 times without drop kicking those that haven't?
It would help if:

Older character could not gear their character with gear 3x better than what a newbie can have.
Hard and Elite actually served their function rather than being used as "extra XP"
Players with conflicting playstyles weren't "forced" to play together (though, scaling might solve that one)

[Aesop]

Adding dodge bonuses to random loot would improve random loot

NO

Dodge bonuses on items are not the solution. IMO it is the anti solution.


also:
how would making it so that you could have a set of +5 FP with +3 Dodge on it be in anyway better than MAKING +7 FP with +5 Resist +6 Con and +3 Dodge on it?

<oops need to get ready for work>

Aesop

[HeavenlyCloud]

the last thing this games needs is mindless DPS freeks

That always gives me a nice laugh. :) Thanks.

[Aesop]

That always gives me a nice laugh. :) Thanks.

um was that second quote actually Osiris or are you just messing with us?

Aesop

[Borror0]

um was that second quote actually Osiris or are you just messing with us?
I congratulate you on your 5,999th post.

[Aesop]

6K Posts

Aesop

[Greydeath]

This would make twinking even more overpowered, and the last thing this game needs is more twinking.
Twinking is logarithmic - we are well past the point that any additional twinkage makes any noticeable difference.


Do you want a a paralyser at level 6? Sorry, overpowered and insane twinking.

Paralyser at level 2. Even more overpowered. It makes content trivial at this point, not only easy.

+5 Vorpal, ML 4.
You seem to underestimate the impact of a single ML 4 unbound +5 Paralyser on a server.
Thanks to the Invaders! ml14 loot fiasco and its ensuring correction, some of these already exist (not +5 Vorpal obviously, but anything else that COULD have been ml14 is game). Given at least a confirmed paralyzer and vorpal, some how neither server melted down - although I have no doubt you will try and blame the current lag on their existence I am sure :rolleyes:


That was something that brought to your attention before, but I will repeat it again: ridiculously small chances of gain are not good incentive.
Bringing something to attention that is clearly false hardly bears repeating... sure they are: to wit loot runs, or even simply opening random chests period, which given the whole premise of the discussion would never happen.

Granted they may not be great for everyone (I am not a fan myself), but applying your personal paradigm to others simply does not work.


Generally speaking, humans don't put a lot of efforts into something they know they have ridiculously low chances to be rewarded. Even if the reward is beyond overpowered in some cases, it is not an incentive to loot random chests because the chance to win is way too low.
Does the world you live in have a lottery? I know Quebec will **** you six ways up the ass should you ever win, but even they have one - and a fairly popular one it would seem given their revenue :eek:


Even if it was bound on acquire, it could simply destroy the gaming experience of a player by making content easier than it ever should be.
Conjecture - it COULD equally be the best thing to ever happen to them and convince the Trial player to purchase and subscribe!

If it was bound it COULD also equally be vendor trash or cell fodder...


For reference, many people who won at the lotto say that it was one of the worse thing that ever happened to them.
Because they squandered their money - NOT because they actually won.


Funnily enough, this proposal capture that really well. Eternal items are a poisoned gift.
Hardly. Not a big fan of the proposal myself to be sure, but poisoned this suggestion is not.

[Greydeath]

Borror explained this very well... I'm not sure why you dismiss his response as "empty".
Probably because it was.


There is ZERO fun in watching someone else solo a quest while you do nothing...

I don't know why you can't understand that...

Disagree - nothing I like more than piking off some twinker, saves me massive ammounts of time and effort. The Chinese are GREAT for this: providing you do not slow them down somehow, they are only too happy to let you pike all you want.

Further, there are plenty of you that would LEARN a thing or two piking off some twink. Not to mention, that doing absolutely nothing is a decision you made - there is ALWAYS something you can contribute to if you WANT.

Finally, your definition of fun is not everyone's definition of fun.

[Thrudh]

Finally, your definition of fun is not everyone's definition of fun.

Okay, let me restate... it's not fun for SOME people to watch someone else solo a quest... And I would dare say that would be a large majority for NEW players...

Sure... right now... If I'm flagging for a raid or favor grinding, I LOVE jumping into a quest in progress, and getting a quick completion with zero work...

But when I was new, I HATED following a trail of dead bodies and getting lost in a dungeon where I did nothing because some twinked out zerger was soloing it... I think very few people would find this fun.

I ended up playing with 2 RL friends... our little static group made a point to do most quests for the first time together... Man, this game was pure joy then... I got to play it exactly how it was designed to be played... No idea what's around the next corner... No idea how far the next shrine is....

Sure it's still fun now, but that's what hooked me... Actual adventuring... Imagine that!

Stumbling through deserted hallways by myself for 5 minutes WHEN NEW, and then suddenly Ding! You get more exp.... That is not fun for me... and I feel confident saying that it's likely not very fun for most people.

[Borror0]

Twinking is logarithmic - we are well past the point that any additional twinkage makes any noticeable difference.
Whether this is true or not, his proposal makes twinking harder to fix and that is not something desirable.

Twinking is logarithmic - we are well past the point that any additional twinkage makes any noticeable difference.
Untrue. A ML 2 Paralyzer represents ridiculous advantage, far greater than any existing twinking gear.

Unlike existing twinking gear, it does not only make the challenge easier than intended to be it totally removes the challenge in question.

Granted they may not be great for everyone (I am not a fan myself), but applying your personal paradigm to others simply does not work.
Perhaps you did understand what I mean by "good incentive".

I don't deny that they are an incentive, but a very poor one. With odds as low as these, very few will bother.

If it was to be implemented, most party would have discussions like these:
Player1: Do you want to go for the optional chest?
Player2: For a 0.000002 chance at a good Eternal item? I'll pass.

The Dragontouched armor are a good example of poor incentive. As it stands, the greatest criticism toward that system is that it is too random. I know a large number of players that can be considered powergamers, raiders and hardcore (not about some very casual gamer not interested in grinding) that outright refuse to grind the armor because they don't think the gain are worth the effort (read: pain), and let's face it: the reward for Dragontouched armor is huge.

Conjecture - it COULD equally be the best thing to ever happen to them and convince the Trial player to purchase and subscribe!
The odds of that happening are much lower than the odds of the item being actually destructive to gameplay.

As MadFloyd once put it:


Like most games, the magic of DDO is when the challenge level is just right; too difficult and it can be frustrating, too easy and it can be boring.
Such a powerful item will make the challenge far easier than expect, and it is very likely for the game to be too easy and thus boring.

And, that is why I said it was a poisoned gift. It will make the game less fun because you had the "chance" to loot it.

[HeavenlyCloud]

um was that second quote actually Osiris or are you just messing with us?

Aesop

Lazy to find the quote where he states all his characters dual wield w/p.

[Aesop]

Hey Borr did ya take a look at the Item Compendium.

See anything interesting to ya?

Aesop

[osirisisis]

NO

Dodge bonuses on items are not the solution. IMO it is the anti solution.


also:
how would making it so that you could have a set of +5 FP with +3 Dodge on it be in anyway better than MAKING +7 FP with +5 Resist +6 Con and +3 Dodge on it?

<oops need to get ready for work>

Aesop

First of all I believe lvl 16 loot drops very rarely any as of right now
but I believe in the very very rare case that you would see +mith FP of +3 dodge if it was in the table that it would give you +1 to your AC more then standard DT FP of +3 dodge. It would be nice armor to wear until you completed your set of DT armor which is not exzackly easy....

But im conscious Apsor if "Dodge bonuses on items are not the solution" what is your suggestion for random loot in the context of shields and armor?

[osirisisis]

Twinking is logarithmic - we are well past the point that any additional twinkage makes any noticeable difference.


Thanks to the Invaders! ml14 loot fiasco and its ensuring correction, some of these already exist (not +5 Vorpal obviously, but anything else that COULD have been ml14 is game). Given at least a confirmed paralyzer and vorpal, some how neither server melted down - although I have no doubt you will try and blame the current lag on their existence I am sure :rolleyes:


Bringing something to attention that is clearly false hardly bears repeating... sure they are: to wit loot runs, or even simply opening random chests period, which given the whole premise of the discussion would never happen.

Granted they may not be great for everyone (I am not a fan myself), but applying your personal paradigm to others simply does not work.


Does the world you live in have a lottery? I know Quebec will **** you six ways up the ass should you ever win, but even they have one - and a fairly popular one it would seem given their revenue :eek:


Conjecture - it COULD equally be the best thing to ever happen to them and convince the Trial player to purchase and subscribe!

If it was bound it COULD also equally be vendor trash or cell fodder...


Because they squandered their money - NOT because they actually won.


Hardly. Not a big fan of the proposal myself to be sure, but poisoned this suggestion is not.


signed .... good to have you on the team grey

[Aesop]

First of all I believe lvl 16 loot drops very rarely any as of right now
but I believe in the very very rare case that you would see +mith FP of +3 dodge if it was in the table that it would give you +1 to your AC more then standard DT FP of +3 dodge. It would be nice armor to wear until you completed your set of DT armor which is not exzackly easy....

But im conscious Apsor if "Dodge bonuses on items are not the solution" what is your suggestion for random loot in the context of shields and armor?

um actually no +5 MFP witha +3 Dodge on it would not beat DT with +3 Dodge on it

remeber that while DT doesn't have the +2 Dex range it does have +2 Armor Range

+5MFP = +13 AC +3 Dex = 16
DT= +15 AC +1 Dex = 16 ... this one requires less dex investment to max the dex ... and will get a larger overall benfit from the Armor Mastery lines for maximum AC vs Dex investment

however +5MCS or MBP with a +3 Dodge would help the light tanks out.

Also I've made a few suggestions to add some interest back in to the random loots a couple pages back.

I think having a Crafting add on in the form of Armor and Shield Spikes would be interesting and could make for some revival of the loot tables ... at least for the Armor Wearers


Maybe have a set of Shield Spike that have a +8 Seeker as a possible addition. Or Armor Spikes that carry a Destruction addition to it that applies to your weapon effects. Weighted Shield Spikes. Only one applied to a given set of armor and if you apply a second one the first is destroyed.

Defensive Spikes that add Damage on being hit (Guard Effects) etc


Dodge Bonuses just inflate the ACs and make balancing more difficult. I would be happier if they were never added to any loot at all. I mean how do you balance melee combat with a group having a 40 AC and a group having 80 AC in a d20 system. Removing Dodge items won't fix the problem but it won't aggrevate the problem more than it already is.


Aesop

[osirisisis]

um actually no +5 MFP witha +3 Dodge on it would not beat DT with +3 Dodge on it

remeber that while DT doesn't have the +2 Dex range it does have +2 Armor Range

If this is true the random range would need to go in mutis of 3
+5 mith +1 dodge would be min 11 +5 mith +4 dodge would be min lvl 20
Robes and outfits would look like +3 dodge min 9 +6 dodge min 18

+5MFP = +13 AC +3 Dex = 16
DT= +15 AC +1 Dex = 16 ... this one requires less dex investment to max the dex ... and will get a larger overall benfit from the Armor Mastery lines for maximum AC vs Dex investment

however +5MCS or MBP with a +3 Dodge would help the light tanks out.

Also I've made a few suggestions to add some interest back in to the random loots a couple pages back.

Missed that, what is the link to those

I think having a Crafting add on in the form of Armor and Shield Spikes would be interesting and could make for some revival of the loot tables ... at least for the Armor Wearers

Crafted gear or crafting on random gear, that helps the random loot table is an oxymoron, I watch crafting destroy the random loot table and a important part of the game with it. I dont see how adding more crafting is going to improve the random loot table when crafting is what helped destroy it in the first place.

Maybe have a set of Shield Spike that have a +8 Seeker as a possible addition. Or Armor Spikes that carry a Destruction addition to it that applies to your weapon effects. Weighted Shield Spikes. Only one applied to a given set of armor and if you apply a second one the first is destroyed.

I like the idea of effects like this on shields that effect weapons that help sword and board tanks but the defender line seems hard to over come.

Defensive Spikes that add Damage on being hit (Guard Effects) etc

I dont think that dps effects guards is going to do it, but power 5 guards might help,
if they were going to go with dps guards I think that the current damage need to be brought way up since most mobs have an insane amount of hit points.


Dodge Bonuses just inflate the ACs and make balancing more difficult. I would be happier if they were never added to any loot at all. I mean how do you balance melee combat with a group having a 40 AC and a group having 80 AC in a d20 system. Removing Dodge items won't fix the problem but it won't aggrevate the problem more than it already is.

I dont see a problem with imbalance involving dodge. Would U like to elaborate on why U feel that dodge has created an imbalance in the game?

Aesop

...

[Borror0]

Would U like to elaborate on why U feel that dodge has created an imbalance in the game?
The difference being able to make the bonus fit in (or owning it) and not is of +3 or +4, which represents a lot in a d20 game.

Non-stackable bonus, like Deflection, Natural Armor, Shield, etc. have a smaller gap. Usually 1, maybe 2, and thus make balancing easier.

[Aesop]

...

Bor pretty much has the bulk of my objections to it. I would comment in more detail... byut I'm so completely brain fried... I'd probably confuse myself.

Gimme a couple days to get my brain rewired and I'll try to explain what I mean

Mostly its about balance and inflation I can tell ya that much.


Aesop

[osirisisis]

Bor pretty much has the bulk of my objections to it. I would comment in more detail... byut I'm so completely brain fried... I'd probably confuse myself.

Gimme a couple days to get my brain rewired and I'll try to explain what I mean

Mostly its about balance and inflation I can tell ya that much.


Aesop

please spice it up with an example of each concept

[osirisisis]

Lazy to find the quote where he states all his characters dual wield w/p.

I have 3 tanks that I use today in toon portfolio, all 3 dual wield: 5 w/p rapiers 1 w/p ss.
6 smiting/banishing rapiers, 6 vorpals, 6 disruptors, and 4 tier 3 mineral 2.
For the record

And do I want the see the extreme ammount of time and effort it takes to create toons equiped that well go down the drain because someone screams "imbalance"?
No I dont

[FluffyCalico]

I have 3 tanks that I use today in toon portfolio, all 3 dual wield: 5 w/p rapiers 1 w/p ss.
6 smiting/banishing rapiers, 6 vorpals, 6 disruptors, and 4 tier 3 mineral 2.
For the record



Gonna :p when the new super raid item is a slashing weapon.

[Borror0]

And do I want the see the extreme ammount of time and effort it takes to create toons equiped that well go down the drain because someone screams "imbalance"?
Personal interests matter little to Turbine. If they make the game better and make profits in the process, your arguments will mean very little.

[osirisisis]

Personal interests matter little to Turbine. If they make the game better and make profits in the process, your arguments will mean very little.
My interests are more then personal, there are others who agree with my "personal interests"... and as for turbine and there decisions over the last 4 mods: profits, population, have dramatically declined so there track records lacks....

[Borror0]

[...] and as for turbine and there decisions over the last 4 mods: profits, population, have dramatically declined so there track records lacks....
The value of w/p rapiers have skyrocketed over the last four modules, therefore the devaluation of w/p rapiers is doing to help the game.

[krud]

I have 3 tanks that I use today in toon portfolio, all 3 dual wield: 5 w/p rapiers 1 w/p ss.
6 smiting/banishing rapiers, 6 vorpals, 6 disruptors, and 4 tier 3 mineral 2.
For the record

ALL of them are TWF/puncturing wielding toons, whip out the Min2 on bosses.

You seem to enjoy having the best. Yet it never occurred to you to ask why you ended up with the same paradigm every time you built a melee toon? If that doesn't give you an indication of how unbalanced things are, nothing will. So much for variety :rolleyes:.

How about this to keep things exciting for you in the loot tables:
Replace the current stat damaging suffixes with lesser/normal/greater; e.g. Lesser puncturing = 1pt con damage on crit, puncturing = d2 on crit, and greater = d3 on crit. Keep con 0 = death. Make current weapons either lesser or normal, and put greater into future loot tables. That will put some excitement back into loot pulls, while at the same time toning down the current crop of puncturing weapons.

[osirisisis]

ALL of them are TWF/puncturing wielding toons, whip out the Min2 on bosses.

You seem to enjoy having the best. Yet it never occurred to you to ask why you ended up with the same paradigm every time you built a melee toon? If that doesn't give you an indication of how unbalanced things are, nothing will. So much for variety :rolleyes:.

All 3 of my tanks R different, one is a ranger one is a barb and one is a fighter.
If the nurf goes thro the next set of tanks I will make is 13rouge/6 ranger/barb1
and a 20 barb double power attack thf scorge choker berserker both pretty mindless Pure DPS builds.

How about this to keep things exciting for you in the loot tables:
Replace the current stat damaging suffixes with lesser/normal/greater; e.g. Lesser puncturing = 1pt con damage on crit, puncturing = d2 on crit, and greater = d3 on crit. Keep con 0 = death. Make current weapons either lesser or normal, and put greater into future loot tables. That will put some excitement back into loot pulls, while at the same time toning down the current crop of puncturing weapons.

I wouldn't willing support and form of w/p nurf but it I had to I would go with if it looked like this:
Low con mobs 10 swings per kill med con mobs 13 swings per kill and high con mobs 17 swings per kill..........all on the average..
as of right now its more like 7 11 18

[Borror0]

All 3 of my tanks R different, one is a ranger one is a barb and one is a fighter.
False. All three are TWF and piercing spec'd.

mindless Pure DPS builds
Elaborate as to how those builds are more mindless than yours.

[krud]

I wouldn't willing support and form of w/p nurf but it I had to I would go with if it looked like this:
Low con mobs 10 swings per kill med con mobs 13 swings per kill and high con mobs 17 swings per kill..........all on the average..
as of right now its more like 7 11 18
And how many swings would you expect for a dps character to kill a mob? The goal is to make it roughly comparable with stat damagers (WoPs), so those other builds you planned would actually be a good choice, along with your twf/woppers.

However, if as you once said, it shouldn't matter that one or two toons way outperform the others, since it is the quest end goal that is most important, then why not argue for the removal of mob blanket immunities so casters can function at top potential again? Would you be happy with your melee toons if sorcs, wizards, and clerics could pk/fod/destruct their way thru every quest before you took a swing? Have you ever complained when a caster instakilled something you had half dead already? That's pretty much the same thing that goes on with the woppers vs every other melee. Instakill is way faster than wops, so why not support the removal of these immunities? you'll get to the end even faster.

[osirisisis]

And how many swings would you expect for a dps character to kill a mob? The goal is to make it roughly comparable with stat damagers (WoPs), so those other builds you planned would actually be a good choice, along with your twf/woppers.

Thats what the DPS cry is. They want DPS to work the most efficiently on every mob ideally, since this has become more of an option with blanket immunity stoping vorpal.
So now nurf w/p and with blanket immunity U can build a stright forward str. build drone out some tier 3 and walla you got stright line mindless DPSing of everything that doesn't require all the real time and chanellage of obtaining a w/p rapier. Players couldn't get w/p rapiers for all there toons........... I played 3 years and 4000 hours and still only had 3 when i need 6... So players cryed it would be easier to nurf w/p then obtain it. Turbine bit because they want to support the new gamer with an easy to make DPS build with some Tier 3....

No matter what the cry is from DPS now they are as viable as they need to be, in that DPS is most effective on the most important parts of this game and thats the red names and purple names and vorpal is a close second to w/p..


However, if as you once said, it shouldn't matter that one or two toons way outperform the others, since it is the quest end goal that is most important, then why not argue for the removal of mob blanket immunities so casters can function at top potential again? Would you be happy with your melee toons if sorcs, wizards, and clerics could pk/fod/destruct their way thru every quest before you took a swing? Have you ever complained when a caster instakilled something you had half dead already? That's pretty much the same thing that goes on with the woppers vs every other melee. Instakill is way faster than wops, so why not support the removal of these immunities? you'll get to the end even faster.

The caster mess is just another level of turbine that baffles my mind. My caster right now most common used spell is web... a lvl 2 spell... I mean is that a joke or what.
U can thank the crafting system for the huge bubbled hp of mobs that U can hit with a dps spells.

Casters and what changes that need to go into make them viable and where they should be is a nice list.... I'll post my thoughts soon.

[Milolyen]

ALL of them are TWF/puncturing wielding toons, whip out the Min2 on bosses.

You seem to enjoy having the best. Yet it never occurred to you to ask why you ended up with the same paradigm every time you built a melee toon? If that doesn't give you an indication of how unbalanced things are, nothing will. So much for variety :rolleyes:.

How about this to keep things exciting for you in the loot tables:
Replace the current stat damaging suffixes with lesser/normal/greater; e.g. Lesser puncturing = 1pt con damage on crit, puncturing = d2 on crit, and greater = d3 on crit. Keep con 0 = death. Make current weapons either lesser or normal, and put greater into future loot tables. That will put some excitement back into loot pulls, while at the same time toning down the current crop of puncturing weapons.

Ya and funniest thing I have seen was when he himself came to the forums and complained about the lack of individuality and how everyone is basically the same.

Milolyen

[HeavenlyCloud]

Elaborate as to how those builds are more mindless than yours.

That simple comment is the one i never understand. He have never answered that question by the way.

[Thrudh]

I have 3 tanks that I use today in toon portfolio, all 3 dual wield: 5 w/p rapiers 1 w/p ss.
6 smiting/banishing rapiers, 6 vorpals, 6 disruptors, and 4 tier 3 mineral 2.
For the record

Why do you have 3 "tanks"?

Looks like they are pretty much the same character.

Me, I have 3 melee too... One uses THF, One is dex-based who uses TWF piercing (and w/p), and one is strength-based TWF who uses khopheses.

[Milolyen]

The caster mess is just another level of turbine that baffles my mind. My caster right now most common used spell is web... a lvl 2 spell... I mean is that a joke or what.
U can thank the crafting system for the huge bubbled hp of mobs that U can hit with a dps spells.

Casters and what changes that need to go into make them viable and where they should be is a nice list.... I'll post my thoughts soon.

You have YET to explain how DPS is mindless and TWFing stat dmgers are not.

You say create DPS drones yet how many ways are there to create a dps char?

Lets see you could go with THF or TWF.
You could go with Huge crits that do not happen very often or more frequent but smaller crits
There is multiple weapon combos depending on which mobs you are facing +5 holy burst of greater evil outsider bane would be great against devils but what happens when you run into a giant ... have to switch to a different weapon to be most effective.

Then lets see ... options for your run of the mill stat dmg chars you play

TWFing - must have
Weapon choices - must be pierce speced using rapier but if you don't have rapier a ss or dagger will work as dmg done does not matter only crit range
class choice - Tempest ranger or crit rage 2 Barb are ideal but any twfing and pierce speced will do fine as it kills mobs only 10 percent slower than the tempest ranger or crit rage 2 barb (which is still much faster than dps)
you have basically 2 weapon sets W/P for trash and mineral 2 for red/purple named.

You complain that everyone is basically a clone yet you oppose a change that will help fix that issue. And you yourself are playing clones.

Milolyen

[Thrudh]

mindless Pure DPS

You really need to stop saying this... You just sound more and more like an idiot.

Using w/p on everything without having to worry about DR types or Greater Bane effects, etc. is obviously more "mindless" than DPS.

[Milolyen]

Oh and back to topic (even though I am 99% sure Oris has me on ignore)

NO WAY. Would this be a good idea. We do not need ANYTHING added to the game that will increase twinking in this game. The low lvls do not need to be made any easier. With current stuff we already have well prepared groups going through lvl 8 content at lvl 4 and lvl 12 content on elite at lvl 8. We already have enough new players feeling like they have been left behind in quests because a twink decided to solo the quest.

Oris, YOU may enjoy the game getting played for you but the vast majority of the people do not. When I was new I dropped several groups in Tangleroot because they zerged through it and I had no clue what was going on, why we were in there and everything was done and killed before I even knew what happened and that is NOT fun. You mean to tell me that you really have no problem going into a quest and bamn its done? Oh wait look who I am talking to ...

Milolyen

[osirisisis]

Oh and back to topic (even though I am 99% sure Oris has me on ignore)

NO WAY. Would this be a good idea. We do not need ANYTHING added to the game that will increase twinking in this game. The low lvls do not need to be made any easier. With current stuff we already have well prepared groups going through lvl 8 content at lvl 4 and lvl 12 content on elite at lvl 8. We already have enough new players feeling like they have been left behind in quests because a twink decided to solo the quest.

Oris, YOU may enjoy the game getting played for you but the vast majority of the people do not. When I was new I dropped several groups in Tangleroot because they zerged through it and I had no clue what was going on, why we were in there and everything was done and killed before I even knew what happened and that is NOT fun. You mean to tell me that you really have no problem going into a quest and bamn its done? Oh wait look who I am talking to ...

Milolyen

I would say that this is a gross exaggeration. Even if these ideas were apllied to the game in the opening in the thread, In no lowbee quest or any quest for that matter is someone so "twinking" that "bam its done for you" or evan is someone so "twinking" that another players has no part in the quest. Once again no matter how new or how unequipped a player is they still can help, and if they had no part in the quest its because they just stood there and did nothing........

Players get lost in quest all the time zerg or no zerg experanced or unexperanced its a part of the game. all they have to do is ask for help and if no one comes and finds them and brings them up to speed then thats on the other party members and not the new player.

[Milolyen]

I would say that this is a gross exaggeration. Even if these ideas were apllied to the game in the opening in the thread, In no lowbee quest or any quest for that matter is someone so "twinking" that "bam its done for you" or evan is someone so "twinking" that another players has no part in the quest. Once again no matter how new or how unequipped a player is they still can help, and if they had no part in the quest its because they just stood there and did nothing........

Players get lost in quest all the time zerg or no zerg experanced or unexperanced its a part of the game. all they have to do is ask for help and if no one comes and finds them and brings them up to speed then thats on the other party members and not the new player.

My first time through tangle root went alot like this. Okay follow this path to get there and person leading runs past everything leaving it all alive ... I am safe as I am following him but I am not enjoying the trip as part of getting to the quests is also content. Talk to this guy. Okay I am talking to him reading up on what is going on. Go to zone in and while I am zoneing in I hear okay just waiting on you to zone in Milo and we will be done. Huh? What? Already done and all I did was stop and read what the quest giver said. I told the group sorry this is my first time through and I don't want it done for me and I left the group. You can't tell me that there are not a lot of quests out there that are just like this. Then to give what should be ml 12 loot to a lvl 2 char everything in the quests will end up getting one shotted by people with that gear ... ooo I got to do 10 points of dmg to that 150 hp monster before it was one shotted by the twinked out char. YAY this is SO much FUN. /quit /uninstall. Sorry but I do not see how that will help the game out at all.

Milolyen

[Kistilan]

Smacks of WoW.

[Monkeytoe]

I'd be glad if the loot was something the character would look forward to using next level instead of something the player will look forward to passing down to a lowbie character or guildmate...

[osirisisis]

I'd be glad if the loot was something the character would look forward to using next level instead of something the player will look forward to passing down to a lowbie character or guildmate...

I'd be thrilled with..... LVL 12 quest then LVL 12 chests that produce LVL 12 loot, where a lvl 12 toon loots the chest and there was actually Loot at LVL 12 that was worth looting, but now there crafting there isnt random loot............ I remember a time (back in my day.....up hill both ways) where players pulled random loot and could actually equip it right away to there toon because it made there toon better, while everyone was saying there gratz........