Common Courtesy seems to be lost!

[RavenStormclaw]

Bear with me a moment because I am truly upset. It seems that common courtesy and decency is dying at least in the game currently. Here is my problem for the last week and a half I have been trying to get my warforged wizard into a shroud group...he is 15 and it would be his first one. Now, I don't mind being turned down because I am level 15 and not 16 or because they have enough wizards etc right or wrong that is the raid leaders choice. The problem I have is the shear number of people who simply ignore me. I always send a tell asking to join explaining myself. More then half simply ignore me and never respond. That is where I have the problem. Its not a random tell. Its a specific tell asking to join a group you are forming. For the love of God have the common deceny and courtesy to respond even if its a polite no. Being ignored is far worse. No one like to be ignored.

We are all here to have fun. Ignoring someone who is asking to join your group is simply rude. You take away from someone elses fun when you do that. Please don't.

Anyway sorry for the rant....just finally got to me after like the 20th time its happened.

For the record, in nearly every instance, I was monitoring the group for at least 5 mintuees (as I am patient and don't expect an immediate reply) and they would fill and go away without me ever getting a response.

[Thrudh]

Bear with me a moment because I am truly upset. It seems that common courtesy and decency is dying at least in the game currently. Here is my problem for the last week and a half I have been trying to get my warforged wizard into a shroud group...he is 15 and it would be his first one. Now, I don't mind being turned down because I am level 15 and not 16 or because they have enough wizards etc right or wrong that is the raid leaders choice. The problem I have is the shear number of people who simply ignore me. I always send a tell asking to join explaining myself. More then half simply ignore me and never respond. That is where I have the problem. Its not a random tell. Its a specific tell asking to join a group you are forming. For the love of God have the common deceny and courtesy to respond even if its a polite no. Being ignored is far worse. No one like to be ignored.

We are all here to have fun. Ignoring someone who is asking to join your group is simply rude. You take away from someone elses fun when you do that. Please don't.

Anyway sorry for the rant....just finally got to me after like the 20th time its happened.

For the record, in nearly every instance, I was monitoring the group for at least 5 mintuees (as I am patient and don't expect an immediate reply) and they would fill and go away without me ever getting a response.


I hate that too, and always take the time to respond to all join requests and tells...

What's funny is the SAME uber-elites who act this way, also spend all their time on these boards screaming for new content... Of course, we don't have new content, because we don't have many devs, and we can't pay for more devs because we don't have a lot of new players, and we don't have a lot of new players because the uber-elites treat them like ****...

[Grosbeak07]

i Hate That Too, And Always Take The Time To Respond To All Join Requests And Tells...

What's Funny Is The Same Uber-elites Who Act This Way, Also Spend All Their Time On These Boards Screaming For New Content... Of Course, We Don't Have New Content, Because We Don't Have Many Devs, And We Can't Pay For More Devs Because We Don't Have A Lot Of New Players, And We Don't Have A Lot Of New Players Because The Uber-elites Treat Them Like ****...

/qft

[The_Rev09]

I hear you man. I've been a big proponent of PuG's, and have met some great people and been part of exciting groups, but there are a few that are really into doing things a specific way with a specific set of toons. They can be a little short, perhaps rude sometimes.

It's probably their 45th run and they're not interested in walking someone through. I've had bad luck getting into PuG's at the high-level stuff myself, so will just wait until my guildies are high enough to join me and we'll experience it together.

Wasn't their a guild of Guides somewhere? A group of people who's reason for being was to help others along hard quests, acting as guides or elite openers, or to fill a spot when one was needed? I thought I saw something about that posted somewhere.

If not, it's a good idea. Would probably end up being filled with RP Paladins... ;)

[Aspenor]

Agreed, just flat ignoring a person's tells is rude.

[Enir]

Manners often fall by the wayside in the anonimous world of the internet.
Manners are less practiced in real life also, I have found.
Our children are not taught how to be polite; to say 'please' and 'thank you'. Our children ARE taught (by media, schools, government) to get things, expect things, be entitled to things and to 'feel good' about themselves.

That said, the majority of people I've run into/ run with on DDO are polite and do answer my tells, as I always answer other tells (normally requests to join a PUG). There is a small percentage of rude jerks. I note them and move on.

I have not tried to get into a Shroud PUG (or Reaver, Hound, etc) because they only seem to want 'experienced players who know the raid'. So many Shrouds simply 'grind', trying to finish quick so that they can run again. I'll run these raids with my guild.

[GovtMule]

Penny Arcade said it best in the "Green Blackboards" cartoon.

I wouldn't post it here, but its easily found.

[Bogenbroom]

It has semed to me that the civility level as a whole has dropped dramatically over the last several months. :(

[Dirac]

Take a note of the leader and perhaps cut them some slack the first couple times. It is quite likely you are right and the person is being a jerk. However, sometimes the raid leader is new, sometimes they are being overwhelmed with tells and people trying to join, sometimes both.

It is certainly good form, if you are definitely not going to take someone, to let them know immediately.

[Riorik]

Bear with me a moment...

I agree, it's rude to not respond at all.

One thing I would suggest is that perhaps you're being screened? Often when viewing a list of applicants, in guild at least, we're asking each other if we've played with you previously. At least, this is what we're doing when it matters.

There are lots of ways - character class combinations to get everything done and some of it depends on the players themselves. There are players that are really good in a given role (class varies, depends on build, player, equipment, etc)...and then there is the vast majority that are in the middle...get too many (characters) that merely do their roles adequately and a skilled leader ends up needing to manage the final few characters carefully.

And, the thing is, whether or not you agreed with their decisions - whether you have better or worse information or whatever the differences in your experience levels playing - they're the leader and they had to make a decision. Good/Bad? Sometimes the only thing that's important is "what it completed". Most of the time it's about whether or not it was done efficiently...had fun...very limited resources permanently expended.

All that is a huge generalism. Most of the groups that do the shroud seek to limit the arcane caster component...yes, I've seen runs that did fine with all sorts of mixes...but it is about the mix and specific builds...with a good caster, only 1 is often the rule with 2 being the preferred limit. So again, it might just be that you were screened - warranted/unwarranted, no way I can guess on that.

[The_Phenx]

Personally it bugs me when people don't pay attention to the LFM screen... if it isnt calling for your class/level... please do not send me tells describing why I should change my mind and take you anyway. Dunno its just meh... more often than not we leave it open for anyone, unless there is a slot that NEEDS to be filled, like cleric, bard, debuff caster etc...

Ex... a 12th lvl fighter splash sends a tell to a lfm calling for 16th lvl only... and then sends 10 tells explaining how twinked out he is and already has shroud weapons etc etc etc .... /ignore :)

If you qualify for the fun and don't get taken...then I dunno what to tell ya. It happens to me sometimes too....

[negative]

Unless the leader is making you sit around for an extended period of time w/o a response or filling the party, I don't see what the big deal is. Things like shroud raids get a lot of join requests and it is infeasible to expect the leader to send a personalized rejection to every applicant.

[hmartyb]

I hate that too, and always take the time to respond to all join requests and tells...

What's funny is the SAME uber-elites who act this way, also spend all their time on these boards screaming for new content... Of course, we don't have new content, because we don't have many devs, and we can't pay for more devs because we don't have a lot of new players, and we don't have a lot of new players because the uber-elites treat them like ****...

I think all those guys should just quit as they keep threatening to do. Get some fresh blood in the Shroud runs. Maybe I'll start posting Shroud groups at 15-15 ;-) Or a full WF Wizzy run.

[Thrudh]

Note the OP isn't complaining about rejected...

The OP is complaining about being ignored... Even if you don't have time to send a tell, hit the decline button....

(What the heck, send a tell as well.. It's not that hard)

[Thrudh]

Unless the leader is making you sit around for an extended period of time w/o a response or filling the party, I don't see what the big deal is.

That's exactly what the OP is complaining about..

[Riorik]

Unless the leader is making you sit around for an extended period of time w/o a response or filling the party, I don't see what the big deal is. Things like shroud raids get a lot of join requests and it is infeasible to expect the leader to send a personalized rejection to every applicant.

I think you mean inconvenient, not infeasible. At least, that's how I'd term it even if you view it differently.

One thing I've personally done (as an applicant) is click on things before I'd really looked carefully. Some of my multiclass builds get the "match" shading even though once I really look hard at the quest/raid plus current group -- it's seems evident they're looking for a character for a specific type or role. Usually I follow that up with a quick /tell apologizing for the goof. Occasionally, the apology has gotten me into the group anyways (sometimes they're swapping, sometimes they're ok with whatever...might even be my charm & good looks [sans charm & good looks])

[negative]

That's exactly what the OP is complaining about..
I don't find it all that clear in the OP. He mentions waiting for 5 minutes, then something about the group filing without him. Well, we all get a rejection message when the group fills w/o you, so, it's unclear to me what his gripe is. I absolutely agree that stringing someone along for 10 minutes is fairly rude, at that point, you should have hit the reject button a while ago.

I think you mean inconvenient, not infeasible. At least, that's how I'd term it even if you view it differently.
I think the proper word to use depends on the volume of join requests you are recieving, something the person trying to join can't know. Personally, I think it's easier to assume the volume=large and move on with my life.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Actually it annoys me when I get tells while forming a group. Want to join? Great, click on my LFM. While the LFM is up I'm probably busy doing other things getting ready, I'm not really looking for chats. The only tell that makes sense is, "Can you hold that Barb slot, I'll be right back on XXXX". If you are on a Wiz and a Wiz spot is open, CLICK. If a Wiz spot is not open, you an try clicking but you might not get in, and if you ask me if you can join I'll probably assume you can't read the LFM since that's what they are for!

In terms of tells asking me to join groups, if they are polite I answer. If they are "shroud?" I ignore them. If all they can get out is one word then they don't need an answer. I rarely say yes anyway, once again, that's what the LFM window is for, I'll join if I want to. The only exception here is guildies and friends.

[oogly54]

If you think DDO is bad when it comes to rudeness you should try playing WOW and the like. Imagine what happens when a large portion of the player base is under the age of 18.

The LFM is used in two ways, you can try to join a LFM or you can create an LFM. If you really want to get a run done, create your own group. Many have the excuse, "But I don't know the quest well enough to lead it". Nobody did at one point and people had to learn it, go learn it.

[Thrudh]

I think the proper word to use depends on the volume of join requests you are recieving, something the person trying to join can't know. Personally, I think it's easier to assume the volume=large and move on with my life.

I don't lead many raids... but I have led a few...

I'm not buying the volume argument... You open up the LFM, each request to join comes in, you click accept or decline. If we're talking an elite Shroud or something or you want to be selective and pore through a list of two dozen applicants, just put "Being selective" in your LFM. No one will complain about a long wait time with those two simple words in your LFM.

I definitely prefer quests... I lead a lot of those, and it's a pretty simple process. First 5 people who want to join get accepted... :)

[GoldyGopher]

I think the OP has forgotten to look a the other side of the coin.
So if you don't meet the requirements (level or class) why should you expect a response from someone with an LFM up?

I run a large number of PUG shrouds (not quite as many now as I used to but none-the-less) and generally I have pretty specific make up of the party in mind when I post the LFM.

There are days I fill in minutes and other days that seem to take forever. One of the biggest problems I have is on the days it takes a while to fill are the Number of Tells I get. "I know you are looking for a Cleric [FOR THAT LAST SPOT] but would you take my Level 12 Monk instead?" Honest to goodness tell from last night. I try to respond to all the Tells I get but when you get a half-a-dozen or more in a few moments you don't always get a response, just a fact of live. To be honest I focus on characters that may meet my requirements rather than the ones I know I am going to turn down.

[negative]

I just reread the OP. I am correct that the OP is not clicking on the join button and ONLY sending a tell? That makes a world of difference in the response you get.

[Mithran]

Bear with me a moment because I am truly upset. It seems that common courtesy and decency is dying at least in the game currently. Here is my problem for the last week and a half I have been trying to get my warforged wizard into a shroud group...he is 15 and it would be his first one. Now, I don't mind being turned down because I am level 15 and not 16 or because they have enough wizards etc right or wrong that is the raid leaders choice. The problem I have is the shear number of people who simply ignore me. I always send a tell asking to join explaining myself. More then half simply ignore me and never respond. That is where I have the problem. Its not a random tell. Its a specific tell asking to join a group you are forming. For the love of God have the common deceny and courtesy to respond even if its a polite no. Being ignored is far worse. No one like to be ignored.

We are all here to have fun. Ignoring someone who is asking to join your group is simply rude. You take away from someone elses fun when you do that. Please don't.

Anyway sorry for the rant....just finally got to me after like the 20th time its happened.

For the record, in nearly every instance, I was monitoring the group for at least 5 mintuees (as I am patient and don't expect an immediate reply) and they would fill and go away without me ever getting a response.

If you're on my Squelch List though, I won't see your tells.

[Lerincho]

Agreed, just flat ignoring a person's tells is rude.

well if they are squelched, you never get the tell needing to remind the person that you have squelched them. same with ignore. squelch is much better though because you can NEVER hear the person either. works well for some guildies that never shut up. geesh.


huh? not the same thing? oh.

[Thrudh]

I just reread the OP. I am correct that the OP is not clicking on the join button and ONLY sending a tell? That makes a world of difference in the response you get.

True, if that's the case...

Hit Join, wait a minute (leader may be responding to other people, busy in guild chat, or afk)... then send one tell... if they don't respond, give up and go away (I mark them in my "Friends" list though).

All of this assumes you match what they want on their LFM. I don't think any of us are saying to you need to respond to a 12th level fighter trying to join your Shroud LFM that is only looking for clerics.

[Zenako]

Sometimes players and/or certain guilds get reps based on observation. I know I routinely hear raid leaders ask over voice, "anyone know XXX of YYY Guild??" Sometimes someone does and says either, "Ugghhh, not a "good" player", or "that player is cool, let them in" or many other combos of words to that effect.

When filling a raid, it is not uncommon to get many more hits than you want, asking to join (especially the shroud in primetime). Not sure many leaders spend much time also watching a chat screen, which is often scrolling fast due to party chatter, or emotes from all the goobers in the raid at each other or stuff like that. Unless you notice quick, a tell might scroll out of sight within seconds, and frankly most tells you get while forming a party are from players who DO NOT meet the expectations you posted on the LFM and they are trying to sell you on taking them anyway.

The worst in my memory was one time running Vons. Posted level 8-10. This level 4 Sorc kept trying to join, kept getting declined, kept sending tells that he could do it, kept being told not interested, until they were squelched. Could we have carried that level 4 thru the quests. Probably, but that was not what we were planning. It was not a character babysitting run, but a flagging run, with the expectation that everyone would be able to contribute in a meaningful manner. Sigh.

So OP, first thing I suggest is to just click the Join first, as some recommended, then if no action in a few minutes, THEN send a tell asking about the status?

[tihocan]

I agree with the OP there are way too many leaders who show no respect at all to other players by ignoring their join requests (when the lfm has no hint that this request would get refused).

That being said, as a group leader I expect people who want to join to hit the join button, because manually inviting them is cumbersome (especially if I'm in progress). It's ok to send a tell before clicking to ask something or explain your playstyle, but if you really want to join, please hit that button! Every now and then I have someone ask me "I'm a level X class Y, can I join?", I answer "yes", then after a minute or two I give up on them hitting the stupid join button and decide to manually invite them :p

[TEK]

I hate that too, and always take the time to respond to all join requests and tells...

What's funny is the SAME uber-elites who act this way, also spend all their time on these boards screaming for new content... Of course, we don't have new content, because we don't have many devs, and we can't pay for more devs because we don't have a lot of new players, and we don't have a lot of new players because the uber-elites treat them like ****...

I find it funny that you would consider a player trying to join the shroud a, "new player" :rolleyes:

but i do agree it is rude. i wish there was a cancel button for when you join a group and they ignore you so you can cancel your request.

However on the flipside I will ignore a stupid tell. like if someone sees that the the LFM is looking for all classes and you send me a tell asking if your class can join then ill let you sit there and figure that DUH moment out. Or if you see the LFM has 7 people in the raid group and you send me a tell asking if there is room then yeah ill have to follow the, "If you dont have anything nice to say, dont say anything at all" rule on that one.

[RavenStormclaw]

Let me respond to a few things. First of all since arcanes are barely tolerated in the shroud anyway (lets face it just letting in 1 or maybe 2 per 12 man group qualifies as barely tolerated) and I've never run the shroud before with my caster I feel and will continue to do so that it is only polite and fair for me to be upfront about that. That is why I will send a tell instead of just hitting the join button. Secondly, only one did I ask to join in a group that already had an arcane. The rest of the time I was generally asking in the eary stages when no arcanes were on board.

I believe in being upfront about my experience. I have a very well built wizard. Have every spell in my spell book I can have at this stage. I have been in the Shroud numerous times just never with a caster. I am honest about that up front as I know how picky peoplel can get. As I have said I have no problem beng declined just a problem being ignored. If I can be honest and polite upfront I would expect the favor in return. That's how I was raied.

[Mr_Ed7]

The OP is completly in the right.

Yes manners are optional it seems nowadays, in both the real world and Stormreach.

I do not like being ignored, so I try not to do it to others. I have told some to hold, and I even offer an explanation before declining a character.

Also, in a similar vein, I think it is rude to just drop party without a simple: "bye".

[Mr_Ed7]

I think the OP has forgotten to look a the other side of the coin.
So if you don't meet the requirements (level or class) why should you expect a response from someone with an LFM up?

I run a large number of PUG shrouds (not quite as many now as I used to but none-the-less) and generally I have pretty specific make up of the party in mind when I post the LFM.

There are days I fill in minutes and other days that seem to take forever. One of the biggest problems I have is on the days it takes a while to fill are the Number of Tells I get. "I know you are looking for a Cleric [FOR THAT LOST SPOT] but would you take my Level 12 Monk instead?" Honest to goodness tell from last night. I try to respond to all the Tells I get but when you get a half-a-dozen or more in a few moments you don't always get a response, just a fact of live. To be honest I focus on characters that may meet my requirements rather than the ones I know I am going to turn down.


Perhaps, but there are plenty of times where the LFM is not written in stone, it can be flexible.

Can you blame the monk for trying? I have in the past let the player know that I have very specific requirements for the party.

[Draxis]

Unfortunately arcane casters tend to get the short end of the stick in Shroud runs, or I've noticed.

Many PUG groups I've run with will typically take and specifically look for 1-2 clerics, 1 caster, and the rest dps.

This is because casters are spec'd for elemental damage, and most raid mobs/bosses are resistant or immune to elemental damage. About the most useful spells a caster has in the Shroud are Solid Fog and Haste. Everything else is saved against/resisted.

So the majority of PUG Shroud groups want all dps-monkey portal/demon beaters to try and rush through as quickly as possible.

That being said, yeah, not sending a tell is pretty darn rude.

[Thrudh]

Let me respond to a few things. First of all since arcanes are barely tolerated in the shroud anyway (lets face it just letting in 1 or maybe 2 per 12 man group qualifies as barely tolerated) and I've never run the shroud before with my caster I feel and will continue to do so that it is only polite and fair for me to be upfront about that. That is why I will send a tell instead of just hitting the join button. Secondly, only one did I ask to join in a group that already had an arcane. The rest of the time I was generally asking in the eary stages when no arcanes were on board.

I believe in being upfront about my experience. I have a very well built wizard. Have every spell in my spell book I can have at this stage. I have been in the Shroud numerous times just never with a caster. I am honest about that up front as I know how picky peoplel can get. As I have said I have no problem beng declined just a problem being ignored. If I can be honest and polite upfront I would expect the favor in return. That's how I was raied.

Ah... you're thinking too much... If a group has an LFM up that contains the wizard icon, ESPECIALLY if there are no arcanes in the group yet... just hit join...

I wouldn't call it a courtesy issue at this point... I expect people to hit join... Like some other poster said, I don't really like tells from people asking if they can join when I have a LFM up that specifically has their class and level...

Of course you can join! The LFM says I want you.

Just hit join... It's quite possible they missed your tells and don't have time to respond to a question with an obvious answer... Joins stay on the list in the leaders create party window.

Just hit join, and explain it's your first time in the Shroud as a caster AFTER they accept you.

[GoldyGopher]

Perhaps, but there are plenty of times where the LFM is not written in stone, it can be flexible.

Can you blame the monk for trying? I have in the past let the player know that I have very specific requirements for the party.

I went back and fixed a TYPO in my Posting.

As for the LFM written in stone, I unlike many others I come across, am fairly flexible I want two healing clerics, a "War Chanter" but will expect most Bards, I have 7 Melee slots (one of which will have rogue skills), and two other/any spots. If I get five characters with known great DPS I expand the number of "other/any" if I get two "battle clerics" I drop one and look for another cleric and so on and so forth.

But when I am down to the Last Spot and the LFM is for something specific (ie Cleric or Bard usually) why waste everyones time sending a tell you have something other than what I am looking for, especially when you can see the party makeup and know why I am looking for that specific function.

[negative]

Just hit join, and explain it's your first time in the Shroud as a caster AFTER they accept you.
I might recommend hitting join and then sending the tell, before acceptance, if you think it is that important to point out its your first time on an arcane.

Either way, you are much more likely to get a response if you hit the join button first. It honestly irritates me as a group leader when someone sends a tell and does not hit the join button.

[Thrudh]

But when I am down to the Last Spot and the LFM is for something specific (ie Cleric or Bard usually) why waste everyones time sending a tell you have something other than what I am looking for, especially when you can see the party makeup and know why I am looking for that specific function.

Agreed for raids. Sometimes you can convince the party leader to take you instead of a cleric on a normal quest...

I saw a LFM up once for about 10 minutes looking to fill that last spot with a cleric... I was on my paladin, and needed the quest for flagging, so I finally sent a tell "Take a paladin? Got 4 Lay on Hands, and a bunch of wands"

He accepted me immediately and we had no problems with the quest.

[bandyman1]

I might recommend hitting join and then sending the tell, before acceptance, if you think it is that important to point out its your first time on an arcane.

Either way, you are much more likely to get a response if you hit the join button first. It honestly irritates me as a group leader when someone sends a tell and does not hit the join button.

Pssh...

Neg invites who I TELL him to invite; It's just that simple.


Send ME the tell Raven. Grovel good enough, and I might find you worthy of being one of my pawns.

[valczir]

Can you blame the monk for trying?

ROTFL - exactly! (My main is a monk, since the last time I wiped my characters (started out a rogue, then a wizard, now it's a monk), and I'll often ask if I can join when the monk is the only class not requested. Reason being that, while I understand that most monks suck, not all of 'em do. It is possible to build a viable monk.)

To the OP: I understand the frustration. I usually send tells before joining a group, too. I absolutely HATE it when I join a group and nobody says anything. I'm also not all that fond of voice chat (argh at varying volume levels - I have to change my audio options with every new group I join). So I'll send a tell to see if I get a response - if I don't, I'll usually move on to the next group or create my own.

Still, it's incredibly frustrating that, in a D&D-based game of all things, so few people are social. I mean, the reason we nerds/geeks/whatever got together and played tabletop D&D is that it was our chance to socialize, right? Most of the time, we're isolated from other people, so D&D was our excuse to get together and waste time, talk about stuff, eat ginormous amounts of unhealthy foods, etc.

I understand that DDO is different (very), but come on! Send some kind of response! If you don't, I am going to assume that you don't have fingers, and therefore can't play the game very well.

[AmoebaCowboy]

I find it funny that you would consider a player trying to join the shroud a, "new player" :rolleyes:

but i do agree it is rude. i wish there was a cancel button for when you join a group and they ignore you so you can cancel your request.

I wish there was a way to retract your join requests as well. Here's a recent real example:

I tend to play late at night when Shroud runs are few & far between as the overall online population tends to be low. Last night there was a Shroud group in the making with 5 people, 3 clerics, a bard, & caster but no DPS (how rarely does that happen?). My capped Barb has a full "Extreme Shroud Killing" mode, I know my role, I've never been in a failed run and I've never died... I am not an idiot. To the contrary, I've been complimented by much more experienced players on how I handle my toon in Raids which makes me warm & fuzzy ;)

The LFM said there were some slots reserved but I took a chance and requested to join. 10 minutes go by... group has increased to a whopping 7 people. I send a tell reiterating my interest in running Shroud and am aware there are some reserved spots but was there room for me? No response. After another 10 minutes I send another join request on the off chance my original was missed (I didn't get a decline). No response. 20 minutes later I get the message that the request was declined because the group was full.

The leader being spammed with tells & rushed to get group going was highly unlikely given the 40 minutes they took to get started. My being squelched or discussed as being a moron also not likely since some of the group makeup included people I've run with previously with good results.

The moral of the story? Common Courtesy = not so common.

If you're forming a group, at least have the decency to not leave people hanging.

[RavenStormclaw]

Pssh...

Neg invites who I TELL him to invite; It's just that simple.


Send ME the tell Raven. Grovel good enough, and I might find you worthy of being one of my pawns.

Yes Master!

[Cjarr]

It's probably their 45th run and they're not interested in walking someone through. ;)

But the issue wasn't about walking through....if that was the case then why not respond to the tell with a "no, we are looking for more experianced players" instead of just ignoring it??

I agree with the OP.....what is so difficult about sending a quick "no", especially since you can just click the tell now instead of having to type out the /tell **** command.
(and yes, there are exceptions of situations such as in battle in a quest where sending the tell might be a bit of a pain)

[TEK]

I wish there was a way to retract your join requests as well. Here's a recent real example:

I tend to play late at night when Shroud runs are few & far between as the overall online population tends to be low. Last night there was a Shroud group in the making with 5 people, 3 clerics, a bard, & caster but no DPS (how rarely does that happen?). My capped Barb has a full "Extreme Shroud Killing" mode, I know my role, I've never been in a failed run and I've never died... I am not an idiot. To the contrary, I've been complimented by much more experienced players on how I handle my toon in Raids which makes me warm & fuzzy ;)

The LFM said there were some slots reserved but I took a chance and requested to join. 10 minutes go by... group has increased to a whopping 7 people. I send a tell reiterating my interest in running Shroud and am aware there are some reserved spots but was there room for me? No response. After another 10 minutes I send another join request on the off chance my original was missed (I didn't get a decline). No response. 20 minutes later I get the message that the request was declined because the group was full.

The leader being spammed with tells & rushed to get group going was highly unlikely given the 40 minutes they took to get started. My being squelched or discussed as being a moron also not likely since some of the group makeup included people I've run with previously with good results.

The moral of the story? Common Courtesy = not so common.

If you're forming a group, at least have the decency to not leave people hanging.

wow i cant believe you waited THAT long lol. You arent good, you're great lol

but yeah sometimes the leader can simply be afk, or contemplating people, or havent seen it yet, or waiting for better options. meanwhile theres another group that you wouldnt mind jumping into beffore time runs out but you would at least like to know if the previous one is going to take you or not.

[negative]

Yes Master!
Hey! That my line! :D I put the "lazy" in "leader".

Erm, wait a minute, I can't let Bandy boss me around. Hear that Bandy? "I am the Law!" /judge dredd voice :D

[Thrudh]

meanwhile theres another group that you wouldnt mind jumping into beffore time runs out but you would at least like to know if the previous one is going to take you or not.

Exactly... for example... I'm on my 19th Shroud run on my wizard... so he's my top priority... A Shroud LFM comes up, already has a sorc, but still has wizards and sorcs in the LFM. So I hit join... Then I notice a "Running with the Devils" LFM. That's the last Vale flagging quest I need for my new paladin... But I'd rather run my wizard tonight...

No response for a minute... Shroud group is growing so the leader isn't afk. I send a quick tell.. "Hey, want a 16 wizard? Got all the debuffs, know my role well. I sent a join request"... No response at all... I finally give up, swap to my paladin, and of course the Running with the Devils LFM is gone.

Just hit decline if you don't want me... Change your LFMs if you don't want anymore of a certain class... It's not hard to be polite.

[The_Rev09]

But the issue wasn't about walking through....if that was the case then why not respond to the tell with a "no, we are looking for more experianced players" instead of just ignoring it??)

I only meant to say that many have very specific roles they want filled and are vague on that when they post an LFM. There have been times when I hit join and get a tell asking me if I've met certain criteria, etc, before accepting or declining the request.

[RavenStormclaw]

I only meant to say that many have very specific roles they want filled and are vague on that when they post an LFM. There have been times when I hit join and get a tell asking me if I've met certain criteria, etc, before accepting or declining the request.


And there is my point at least you get a tell back. I simply think that part of being a good party leader is being a good communicator. If you can not communicate well enough to respond to peoples tells and just ignore them... what does that say about your ability to lead a group where communication is one of they keys to success?

[Lorien_the_First_One]

The LFM said there were some slots reserved but I took a chance and requested to join. 10 minutes go by... group has increased to a whopping 7 people. I send a tell reiterating my interest in running Shroud and am aware there are some reserved spots but was there room for me? No response. After another 10 minutes I send another join request on the off chance my original was missed (I didn't get a decline). No response. 20 minutes later I get the message that the request was declined because the group was full.


You waited 40 minutes? there was your first problem. If more then 2minutes goes by after I click to join I feel quite free to select another group to join or start my own.

Clearly that was a group that went AFK while gathering guildies or friends.


And there is my point at least you get a tell back. I simply think that part of being a good party leader is being a good communicator. If you can not communicate well enough to respond to peoples tells and just ignore them... what does that say about your ability to lead a group where communication is one of they keys to success?

The communication tool is the LFM. It's kind of like 99.999% of companies that when hiring only tell you they will contact you if you are interested.

[Lerincho]

Unfortunately common decency/courtesy has died in the real world because of the lack or parents actually enforcing these types of rules and manners on their kids. This in turn gets played out in video games because "well I'll never meet these people" creating an even wider chasm in regards to respect towards others.

Same can be said of the group leaders that do the other rude thing.... BLIND INVITES. If you are in such a hurry to fill the party, SHORT MAN THE QUEST already.

[RavenStormclaw]

The communication tool is the LFM. It's kind of like 99.999% of companies that when hiring only tell you they will contact you if you are interested.

Uh Lorien....no!

The LFM is a tool to form a group. Not lead a group. Leading involves telling others what their roles are, telling whom you want to comnplete what task, deciding how to handle a given situation etc. All of that involves communication. Its why the Armed Services still has ranks and officers and commnaders. Becuse even if you know your role perfectly there are times when, if you are not in charge, you must follow orders because things happen and circumstances change.

[Lerincho]

I think the "telling" people and "deligating" roles is taken too far by some within this community. Attempting to tell people how their character should be played for example. Another example stating something like "oh the rogue or monk doesn't need to do anything we will handle the rest".

You can tell people what you have in mind in regards to strategy, but "ordering" adds to the tension.

[AmoebaCowboy]

You waited 40 minutes? there was your first problem. If more then 2minutes goes by after I click to join I feel quite free to select another group to join or start my own.

Like I said, it was a slow night and there was nothing else going on. However, I *could* have done other things and been more productive.. or joined another group had one caught my eye if only I had some sort of response. Thrudh's post above illustrates this quite well.

[Deriaz]

It has semed to me that the civility level as a whole has dropped dramatically over the last several months. :(

No kidding. Mine is a bit further back, but I remember about a year ago, not having to worry about PuGs because everyone was friendly and no one cared if we failed a quest because it was a learning experience.

Now that everyone knows the content, PuGging is a nightmare (to me, at least) because you have to know your way to the quest, you have a certain amount of x, y, and z in your inventory (Usually potions), you seem to need a build that is "perfect". . .

I'd PuG a whole lot more if it weren't for the fact that the most recent times I've tried, I've been chewed out for being unsure about details of the quest, or for having not PuGged in awhile. I also got chewed for not having a stack of 100 Repair Serious Wounds, or whatever, potions with me on an alt.

I have nothing against "uber" people, which I've noticed a few replies saying. (I haven't read the whole thread, sorry.) I just wish people were more open to helping others learn, NO MATTER whether you're "uber", "casual", or whatever. I also wish people weren't so hasty to judge if someone isn't an expert or isn't sure of what they're doing. I've seen it called "hand-holding"; it isn't. It's just common courtesy to help your fellow player get to the same level as you.

At least, it used to be. I don't know when it changed. . . But it's making me unhappy every time I want to play this game, because I've actually become scared of PuGging because I don't know whether I'll be chewed out or actually accepted and helped, if the particular quest is "new"-ish to me. :/

-D

[Samadhi]

Actually it annoys me when I get tells while forming a group. Want to join? Great, click on my LFM. While the LFM is up I'm probably busy doing other things getting ready, I'm not really looking for chats. The only tell that makes sense is, "Can you hold that Barb slot, I'll be right back on XXXX". If you are on a Wiz and a Wiz spot is open, CLICK. If a Wiz spot is not open, you an try clicking but you might not get in, and if you ask me if you can join I'll probably assume you can't read the LFM since that's what they are for!



My feelings as well. I just got a tell this weekend for a shroud I had posted this weekend with "Do you need a ranger?" I only had 4 spots filled in the group and was posting for all classes. My thought was, this guy is a "slow person," and in the interests of "if you don't have anything nice to say," I ignored him.

[Lerincho]

My feelings as well. I just got a tell this weekend for a shroud I had posted this weekend with "Do you need a ranger?" I only had 4 spots filled in the group and was posting for all classes. My thought was, this guy is a "slow person," and in the interests of "if you don't have anything nice to say," I ignored him.

is this more acceptable than accepting their join and booting them?

[Elaril]

Stuff from the original post.

Some people, myself included, hate getting tells explaining yourself. If the LFM is up and your class is listed, click to join.

[WeaselKing]

is this more acceptable than accepting their join and booting them?

Yes.

[RavenStormclaw]

Some people, myself included, hate getting tells explaining yourself. If the LFM is up and your class is listed, click to join.


Except that I have been burned more then once by doing this when I do that and then tell them its my first time doing quest x or quest x with alt b etc...so damned if I do or damned if I don't? Still doesn't actually excuse being polite... sorry if I am polite enough to tell you upfront that I may not be as experience as you assume then I expect politness in return.

[Elaril]

Except that I have been burned more then once by doing this when I do that and then tell them its my first time doing quest x or quest x with alt b etc...so damned if I do or damned if I don't? Still doesn't actually excuse being polite... sorry if I am polite enough to tell you upfront that I may not be as experience as you assume then I expect politness in return.

No, just damned if you do. Join, then explain yourself. It's much easier to communicate over voice. If they don't care, great...If they do, just drop group...C'est la vie. Either way, it saves the leader from having to answer multiple tells from people explaining themselves.

[Deriaz]

It's much easier to communicate over voice.

Or by text. Gotta love it, though, when someone downs you for wanting to use text over voice, because you find it easier (or you're just too shy to want to use voice, as well, in my case.).

-D

[MrWizard]

I always send a tell asking to join explaining myself. More then half simply ignore me and never respond. That is where I have the problem. Its not a random tell. Its a specific tell asking to join a group you are forming. For the love of God have the common deceny and courtesy to respond even if its a polite no.
For the record, in nearly every instance, I was monitoring the group for at least 5 mintuees (as I am patient and don't expect an immediate reply) and they would fill and go away without me ever getting a response.

Perhaps you should not annoy the party leader by sending a tell first. When I got a group going I am looking for certain things and it is listed quite plainly. If you are one of them, there is a 'join button' and if you do not press it they cannot accept you.

If you are something other than looked for, hit join, and then send a tell.

I usually completely ignore blind tells as noobs or someone that is so new they do not understand how to read or respond to an LFM.

If you are so super polite to ask someone if you can join a group that is already looking for you, at least click the join button so they can accept you. To make them type an invite to make you feel better is wasting a lot of people's time.

On the converse, if the LFM says 'send tell only' I usually never join cause that just makes no sense to me and must be a private group or a noob group.

I would just press join....

A lot of time a leader may be doing other things like a side quest, looting, maintanence and just does not want to be bothered with 40 people asking in 'tells' if they can join and what they can do, etc... That really is not needed with the LFM system in place.


fyi

[branmakmuffin]

Perhaps you should not annoy the party leader by sending a tell first. [my emphasis]
You're joking, right?

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Uh Lorien....no!

The LFM is a tool to form a group. Not lead a group. Leading involves telling others what their roles are, telling whom you want to comnplete what task, deciding how to handle a given situation etc. All of that involves communication. Its why the Armed Services still has ranks and officers and commnaders. Becuse even if you know your role perfectly there are times when, if you are not in charge, you must follow orders because things happen and circumstances change.

Leadership includes using the right communication tools at the right time. During the group forming, the LFM is the right communication tool. If you are silly enough to try sending me smoke signals instead of using the established method of communication, then expect to be ignored.

[branmakmuffin]

Leadership includes using the right communication tools at the right time. During the group forming, the LFM is the right communication tool. If you are silly enough to try sending me smoke signals instead of using the established method of communication, then expect to be ignored.
Right, because no one ever forgets to take their LFM down when they're 90% done with the quest. :rolleyes:

Get the [he]ck over yourself.

[Deriaz]

Finally got a chance to read the whole thread, and I'd like to ask a very honest question, if I may.

In the past, what I used to do was click Join, and then send a tell to the leader along the lines of, "I'm a <level> <race> <class>. I normally do <things I feel I'm strong at>. <Mention Healer's Friend, if obtained at that level.>. Need a hand?"

But after reading this thread, I'm honestly curious if that's considered a "waste of time" and would be ignored by people at this time. From reading over the thread, it sounds like people either don't want to step on others' toes, and help make their joining as smooth and polite as possible (I'm in that group.), while others just want to go with as minimal conversation as possible and get the quest moving and done ASAP. It seems that the only "accepted" way of getting into a party is to click Join, don't send a tell, and just get to the quest right when you get accepted in order to start quickly. . .

Why is someone looked down upon for wanting to help the leader out by explaining what they can do, and asking if they sound like someone they may need? It almost feels like no one wants to actually communicate anymore, but instead just get to 16 as soon as possible on as many characters as possible in order to cap/loot/in some instances, complain there's nothing left to do.

Have people really turned away from the social aspect of the game that much. . .? If so, that's hard for me to understand and take in. . .

I'm sorry if I'm understanding this the wrong way; I'm just really confused at where this part of the game did a complete 180, and trying to figure out the best way to compensate in order for me to get back into the PuGging scene quickly (because my friends all know I want to level badly, and this fear of PuGs is only holding me back. . .)

-D

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Right, because no one ever forgets to take their LFM down when they're 90% done with the quest. :rolleyes:

Get the [he]ck over yourself.

Well that would be a failure to communicate... but when the add request is ignored you will know you aren't needed. If the quest is underway you are even less likely to get a tell response, they are busy.


Finally got a chance to read the whole thread, and I'd like to ask a very honest question, if I may.

In the past, what I used to do was click Join, and then send a tell to the leader along the lines of, "I'm a <level> <race> <class>. I normally do <things I feel I'm strong at>. <Mention Healer's Friend, if obtained at that level.>. Need a hand?"


I can read level, race, and class when you click the Join a group button. I assume until proven otherwise that everyone who plays is a capable player with an effective build and a reasonable amout of equipment. I've specifically said I needed a hand (or at least wouldn't mind company) by putting up an LFM. So yes, the tell adds nothing.

The only exception might be if your build is very unusual (hey, I know you are looking for a cleric but my 16 pali is actually healing spec'd and can hold his own as primary healer if you want).

For me the social aspect of the game is in quest, not during those few minutes before quest when everyone is running around trying to get ready, grabbing that glass of water/food/bathroom break. Many people I know go AFK during that group building point, its just not the social part of the game.

Now at the same time I think as people are getting more bored with content they are more on auto pilot and the game is becomming a bit more cold as a result, but group forming never seemed like social time.

[Deriaz]

I can read level, race, and class when you click the Join a group button. I assume until proven otherwise that everyone who plays is a capable player with an effective build and a reasonable amout of equipment. I've specifically said I needed a hand (or at least wouldn't mind company) by putting up an LFM. So yes, the tell adds nothing.

The only exception might be if your build is very unusual (hey, I know you are looking for a cleric but my 16 pali is actually healing spec'd and can hold his own as primary healer if you want).

Hmm. . . Alright. *Nods.* I'll keep that in mind for the next PuG I (attempt to) join, then. Thank you.

-D

[branmakmuffin]

Well that would be a failure to communicate... but when the add request is ignored you will know you aren't needed. If the quest is underway you are even less likely to get a tell response, they are busy.
So the proper response from someone with poor communications skills is ...

... rudeness!

[RavenStormclaw]

Leadership includes using the right communication tools at the right time. During the group forming, the LFM is the right communication tool. If you are silly enough to try sending me smoke signals instead of using the established method of communication, then expect to be ignored.


Again you have it wrong. The LFM is the smoke signals. The tell is the telegraph. If you want to ignore a tell then do so. Please be my guest. However do not defend that by saying my sending a tell is wasting the group leaders time. You are defending rudeness by being rude? Well that seems illogical. Again this in an MMO... its a social game. One with many more adults then children. I would expect to be ignored in WOW... not here.

And for the love go God get over the whole I expect to be invited thing. I don't . I expect the leader to say "hey yea will take you" or "no thanks" and if they do I'll hit join on the LFM. No where in any of my posts did I say I expected an invite after sending a tell.

Furthermore, you can't delineate what part of the game is social and what isn't. The whole game is social. Group forming, running around Korthos, and questing. I've been stopped by new players in Korthos asking me questions. I've had veterns stop and remove my curse way before rests shrines got rid of it. Either every aspect of the game is social and should be treated that way... or none of it is social.

[SableShadow]

Either every aspect of the game is social and should be treated that way... or none of it is social.

Huh? :confused:

[RavenStormclaw]

Huh? :confused:


Was referring to Lorien's comment that the social part of the game is "in the quest". That's not true. This game has man aspects. Not just questing. There's forming a group, going to the trainer, hell walking from point A to point B. They all are dfferent parts of the whole game. They each have their unique aspects of social interaction whether you want to admit it or not. Thus either every aspect of this game is a soical interaction or none of it is... in other words you can not choose when to be soical at your conviences. If you choose to play a game based on social intereaction then then rules of common courtesy and deceny apply all the time not just when it suits you. If you don't want to be social log out and go read a book or go solo.

[branmakmuffin]

Was referring to Lorien's comment that the social part of the game is "in the quest". That's not true. This game has man aspects. Not just questing. There's forming a group, going to the trainer, hell walking from point A to point B. They all are dfferent parts of the whole game. They each have their unique aspects of social interaction whether you want to admit it or not. Thus either every aspect of this game is a soical interaction or none of it is... in other words you can not choose when to be soical at your conviences. If you choose to play a game based on social intereaction then then rules of common courtesy and deceny apply all the time not just when it suits you. If you don't want to be social log out and go read a book or go solo.
The problem is the way some people compartmentalize and categorize different aspects of the game, e.g., guild housing is "fluff," yet quests and raids are "content." It's all content, just as you assert that all the game (aside from creating a character and running the tutorial) is social. And of course when someone says "Quests are social and the rest of the game is not," what he means is that he needs other players to help do raid X, but that he does not need other players to help go see the trainer. For such a person, even raids are not "social" in the way I think you mean.

[SableShadow]

... in other words you can not choose when to be soical at your conviences. If you choose to play a game based on social intereaction then then rules of common courtesy and deceny apply all the time not just when it suits you. If you don't want to be social log out and go read a book or go solo.

As I said, I like and respect people who take the time to respond to my tells; at the same time, I understand it isn't necessarily personal if they don't.

What I don't understand, though, is why you feel the person you're sending a tell to *must* be rude if they don't answer. That's like a telemarketer getting ****ed if I screen his call, or a door to door salesmen getting annoyed when I shut the door in his face. Their actions don't obligate me; why do you feel your actions obligate others?

Seems pretty rude.

[branmakmuffin]

As I said, I like and respect people who take the time to respond to my tells; at the same time, I understand it isn't necessarily personal if they don't.

What I don't understand, though, is why you feel the person you're sending a tell to *must* be rude if they don't answer. That's like a telemarketer getting ****ed if I screen his call, or a door to door salesmen getting annoyed when I shut the door in his face. Their actions don't obligate me; why do you feel your actions obligate others?

Seems pretty rude.
We (on the forums) have been through this before. The telemarketer is the rude one, calling you at home. The door-to-door salesman is even ruder, intruding into your physical privacy. In neither case are you inviting them to disturb you (of course, that's no excuse for over-the-top rudeness). In DDO, when you set up an LFM, you are saying to everyone in the game "Hey, communicate with me." If you don't want tells, put "no tells, please" in your LFM (I have seen this).

[Junts]

I put up a fair number of lfms, and there are exactly two kinds of join request tells I ignore:

#1: blind tells from people I don't know asking my cle/brd/sor to run something with them 'Hound?' 'Shroud?' etc
#2: tells from people who clearly do not match the requirements in the lfm.


I get a fair number of complaints because I never decline people who aren't on my squelch list and sometimes put my lfm up for a few minutes before accepting: put it up, let the guildies do the toon shuffle thing they always do, then peruse the join requests for people who match whatever we still need.

[Thrudh]

Again you have it wrong. The LFM is the smoke signals. The tell is the telegraph. If you want to ignore a tell then do so. Please be my guest. However do not defend that by saying my sending a tell is wasting the group leaders time. You are defending rudeness by being rude? Well that seems illogical. Again this in an MMO... its a social game. One with many more adults then children. I would expect to be ignored in WOW... not here.

And for the love go God get over the whole I expect to be invited thing. I don't . I expect the leader to say "hey yea will take you" or "no thanks" and if they do I'll hit join on the LFM. No where in any of my posts did I say I expected an invite after sending a tell.

Furthermore, you can't delineate what part of the game is social and what isn't. The whole game is social. Group forming, running around Korthos, and questing. I've been stopped by new players in Korthos asking me questions. I've had veterns stop and remove my curse way before rests shrines got rid of it. Either every aspect of the game is social and should be treated that way... or none of it is social.

Why aren't you listening to us??? You're a pure wizard... There is no need to explain ANYTHING... If the party has a wizard icon and the right level spread in the LFM, just hit join...

You are making this WAY too complicated...

Let me ask you this... How is sending a tell to groups that want wizards working for you?? Not very well, right? That's why you posted right?

Sure it's a social game... And societies have customs... Most of us ignore dumb tells... I defended you at the beginning... I respond to all JOIN REQUESTS... I don't leave people hanging... I usually respond to dumb tells like "Hey you need a wizard?", but not always.. If I'm busy, those tells are the last ones I'll respond to...

Just letting you know...

If you're worried about being new to a quest, just join and tell them that... Say after you join... "hey this is my first time in this quest... I can drop if that's a problem..." Most of us will be happy to show you what's going on...

[Thrudh]

I get a fair number of complaints because I never decline people who aren't on my squelch list and sometimes put my lfm up for a few minutes before accepting: put it up, let the guildies do the toon shuffle thing they always do, then peruse the join requests for people who match whatever we still need.

Let the guildies do the toon shuffle BEFORE putting up the LFM please...

Pretty easy to do it that way, and much more considerate to the rest of us...

[Cjarr]

That's like a telemarketer getting ****ed if I screen his call, or a door to door salesmen getting annoyed when I shut the door in his face. Their actions don't obligate me; why do you feel your actions obligate others?

Seems pretty rude.


Actually those are somewhat poor examples......Most door-to-door salesmen do get annoyed when you shut the door on them, and telemarketers don't get ****ed if you screen the call only because they don't know you screen it, although they do get POed when you never answer, and even worse when you hang up on them after telling them no multiple times if they haven't finished their pitch yet

[SableShadow]

Actually those are somewhat poor examples......Most door-to-door salesmen do get annoyed when you shut the door on them, and telemarketers don't get ****ed if you screen the call only because they don't know you screen it, although they do get POed when you never answer, and even worse when you hang up on them after telling them no multiple times if they haven't finished their pitch yet

You're right, those are poor examples.

All I'm trying to say, however badly :D, is you can't assume to know what's going on at the other end of your /tell.

Maybe the person is just plain rude.
Maybe the person doesn't like you, and just hasn't gotten around to telling you yet.
Maybe the person is just having a bad day and doesn't want to reply to tells.
Maybe the person is in tell/guild chat/combat spam hell.
etc, etc.

Sometimes my tells go nowhere, but not really that often, and I make it a point to respond to all tells (tip: I keep a separate tab for /tells only, so I can see if I missed one in spam somewhere).

[RavenStormclaw]

Why aren't you listening to us??? You're a pure wizard... There is no need to explain ANYTHING... If the party has a wizard icon and the right level spread in the LFM, just hit join...

You are making this WAY too complicated...

Let me ask you this... How is sending a tell to groups that want wizards working for you?? Not very well, right? That's why you posted right?

Sure it's a social game... And societies have customs... Most of us ignore dumb tells... I defended you at the beginning... I respond to all JOIN REQUESTS... I don't leave people hanging... I usually respond to dumb tells like "Hey you need a wizard?", but not always.. If I'm busy, those tells are the last ones I'll respond to...

Just letting you know...

If you're worried about being new to a quest, just join and tell them that... Say after you join... "hey this is my first time in this quest... I can drop if that's a problem..."be h Most of us will appy to show you what's going on...

Problem in red. If what you said was even half true we woudn't even be having this discussion. Furthermore, this discussion really has everything to do with the Shroud specifically and not really any other quest. I do not feel the need to explain myself when running just any old quest. However, I have had nothing but trouble in dealing with people setting up Shroud raids. So I really don't need lectures about how to join a group. I know how. However, as I have said more then once. If you put up an LFM you invite people to communicate with you; however they choose to do so, in order to join your group. Yes the LFM is the easiest method. However it is not the only method.

[RavenStormclaw]

On a side note and this is no way a beef just a question. How many of you have run the shroud on a character less then level 16? I just ask because I see so many Shroud runs 16 only....now I would understand that doing Shroud elite maybe even hard. But these group were doing normal (know for the most part because I have a lot of guildies and friends who were in these groups so I asked them) However, I have been in runs where half the party was 15 or less (lowest I've seen is a 13) and yet we had not one problem. Just curious. Even more curious I will see the LFM go up and not bother, then I'll see a 15 or two get in......go figure.

[Dirac]

On a side note and this is no way a beef just a question. How many of you have run the shroud on a character less then level 16? I just ask because I see so many Shroud runs 16 only....now I would understand that doing Shroud elite maybe even hard. But these group were doing normal (know for the most part because I have a lot of guildies and friends who were in these groups so I asked them) However, I have been in runs where half the party was 15 or less (lowest I've seen is a 13) and yet we had not one problem. Just curious. Even more curious I will see the LFM go up and not bother, then I'll see a 15 or two get in......go figure.

I was going to mention this earlier. I consider the LFM to be a guide and not to be taken literally. When I put up a LFM for Shroud or even Hound, I always put 16-16. Of course, experienced players with twinked-out 13-15 characters who know what they are doing can contribute in those quests. However, I expect those people to join my LFM anyway, or send a tell, precisely becuase they are experienced players who know what they are dong. When they do, I let them it. I don't want the person new to the quest without the right equipment at level 13-14. They should wait to level 16 to do the raid. And, such a new person is far less likely to join a quest not asking for characters at their level.

I join quests with the same philosophy. If I know I can contribute what they are asking, I sign up regardless what the actual LFM is. If they don't want me, they can decline. I might even send a tell...

[TEK]

On a side note and this is no way a beef just a question. How many of you have run the shroud on a character less then level 16? I just ask because I see so many Shroud runs 16 only....now I would understand that doing Shroud elite maybe even hard. But these group were doing normal (know for the most part because I have a lot of guildies and friends who were in these groups so I asked them) However, I have been in runs where half the party was 15 or less (lowest I've seen is a 13) and yet we had not one problem. Just curious. Even more curious I will see the LFM go up and not bother, then I'll see a 15 or two get in......go figure.

I've been here for over 3 years. i have no toons under level 16, but i did run the shroud at level 15 a few times a long long long long long time ago when the level cap was raised to 16.

[Thrudh]

However, I have had nothing but trouble in dealing with people setting up Shroud raids. So I really don't need lectures about how to join a group. I know how.

The method you are using is not working. I am telling you that very few people who have zero casters in the group already with a LFM up that includes arcanes will decline a level 15 pure wizard.

BUT... you have to hit the join button.


However, as I have said more then once. If you put up an LFM you invite people to communicate with you; however they choose to do so, in order to join your group. Yes the LFM is the easiest method. However it is not the only method.

You can continue doing your method which has failed multiple times in a row, or you can listen to our advice... Your choice...

[Thrudh]

On a side note and this is no way a beef just a question. How many of you have run the shroud on a character less then level 16? I just ask because I see so many Shroud runs 16 only....now I would understand that doing Shroud elite maybe even hard. But these group were doing normal (know for the most part because I have a lot of guildies and friends who were in these groups so I asked them) However, I have been in runs where half the party was 15 or less (lowest I've seen is a 13) and yet we had not one problem. Just curious. Even more curious I will see the LFM go up and not bother, then I'll see a 15 or two get in......go figure.

I got in a Speed Shroud run (LFM said 16-16) last night with my newly leveled 15 paladin... I was expecting to have to send tells explaining how I had all the gear, but they just accepted my join request.

Pretty good run too... 24 minutes...

Oh, and my paladin is pretty new... No one knows his name, so it's not like they recognized me as a good player...

[Sirea]

Stop wasting time with the tells, just join the group already. If they're a 15-16 group and they're taking wizards, chances are they'll take you.

I don't see why you feel the need to pussyfoot around the LFM. You're creating a problem where there shouldn't really be one.

[branmakmuffin]

Stop wasting time with the tells, just join the group already. If they're a 15-16 group and they're taking wizards, chances are they'll take you.

I don't see why you feel the need to pussyfoot around the LFM. You're creating a problem where there shouldn't really be one. [my emphasis]
You answered your own concern.

[RavenStormclaw]

The method you are using is not working. I am telling you that very few people who have zero casters in the group already with a LFM up that includes arcanes will decline a level 15 pure wizard.

BUT... you have to hit the join button.



You can continue doing your method which has failed multiple times in a row, or you can listen to our advice... Your choice...

On my Paladin I do exactly that. Never a thought. The first time I did that on my wizard I got burned. Group leader thru a fit. Said I should have told him before hand ie before I joined since I sent him a tell right after I joined. So you tell me by your method I got burned.... hence why I changed tatics. Any how this is really off topic at this point. This isn not about me getting into a Shroud raid I am quite capable of doing that. That's why I don't see the point of you reiteraritng I should just hit join. This was about common courtesy. If you don't see it that way (and I am speaking in general terms here not just to you Thrudh) in the fact that not responding to a tell is impolite when asking to join a group you are forming then let us agree to disagree.

I've made my point and you've made yours.

[Thrudh]

let us agree to disagree.

I've made my point and you've made yours.

Roger that... <bow>

[Zenako]

OP let me ask you, how many raid groups have you formed? The reason I ask is that you may not have the same appreciation some of the posters on this thread do about the logisitics of it. How that many times you will get inundated with join requests and that those take priority over tells. Tells are generally from people who fall outside the stated LFM's trying to sell themselves into the raid. On a busy session, deciding on which of the dozen join requests to take, asking those in party about various names/ guilds of the joiners on the list takes time.

Now if someone were to take time to answer all their tells from applicants, would you have been satisfied with a single word answer? "Nope" or "Sorry" or something like that or would that still be considered rude? What if one has a dozen tells lined up? How much time to spend with complete answers to each? I have found that often when given a negative reply, that the same player resends another tell with more info about why we need them? Ie not taking no for an answer, thus I wasted my time the first time.

Now keep in mind that party forming dynamics with a normal quest are a LOT different than for forming a very popular raid. I suspect that when forming a group to run something like Caverns of Korromar, that you would get a reply regardless of which method you used.

[RavenStormclaw]

Stop wasting time with the tells, just join the group already. If they're a 15-16 group and they're taking wizards, chances are they'll take you.

I don't see why you feel the need to pussyfoot around the LFM. You're creating a problem where there shouldn't really be one.

You're the type that blames the victims aren't you?

[RavenStormclaw]

Roger that... <bow>


/bow

Thank you for an enlightening debate :)

[Thrudh]

The first time I did that on my wizard I got burned. Group leader thru a fit. Said I should have told him before hand ie before I joined since I sent him a tell right after I joined. So you tell me by your method I got burned.... hence why I changed tatics.

Sorry to jump back in here... but this group leader was a jerk, and not very representative... I think basing your actions on his reaction is the wrong move.

Join a group, say or type in Group chat, "Hey all, this is my first time in the Shroud as a caster... If that's a problem, let me know and I'll be happy to drop."

You're not doing anything wrong at all in this situation. Just be prepared to drop with a cheery "No worries.. good luck to you guys"

Any group leader who throws a fit in that situation will get his name noted by the other 10 members of the raid as someone to avoid in the future...

[RavenStormclaw]

OP let me ask you, how many raid groups have you formed? The reason I ask is that you may not have the same appreciation some of the posters on this thread do about the logisitics of it. How that many times you will get inundated with join requests and that those take priority over tells. Tells are generally from people who fall outside the stated LFM's trying to sell themselves into the raid. On a busy session, deciding on which of the dozen join requests to take, asking those in party about various names/ guilds of the joiners on the list takes time.

Now if someone were to take time to answer all their tells from applicants, would you have been satisfied with a single word answer? "Nope" or "Sorry" or something like that or would that still be considered rude? What if one has a dozen tells lined up? How much time to spend with complete answers to each? I have found that often when given a negative reply, that the same player resends another tell with more info about why we need them? Ie not taking no for an answer, thus I wasted my time the first time.

Now keep in mind that party forming dynamics with a normal quest are a LOT different than for forming a very popular raid. I suspect that when forming a group to run something like Caverns of Korromar, that you would get a reply regardless of which method you used.

I'll grant you that on a busy night it could be hard. I really woudn't get so upset understanding there may be numerous tells etc. However, my play time is during the day most of the shroud groups this has happened on took more then 10 minutes to fill. I play during a slower time period when there really aren't hundreds on.

I'll admit I've never formed a Shroud raid. I have formed Vehla, Reaver, Titan, and Tempest Spine raids.

[RavenStormclaw]

Sorry to jump back in here... but this group leader was a jerk, and not very representative... I think basing your actions on his reaction is the wrong move.

Join a group, say or type in Group chat, "Hey all, this is my first time in the Shroud as a caster... If that's a problem, let me know and I'll be happy to drop."

You're not doing anything wrong at all in this situation. Just be prepared to drop with a cheery "No worries.. good luck to you guys"

Any group leader who throws a fit in that situation will get his name noted by the other 10 members of the raid as someone to avoid in the future...

I know and perhaps I've been trying to be to nice. I'll give it another shot with the join first explain later method.

[Zenako]

I'll grant you that on a busy night it could be hard. I really woudn't get so upset understanding there may be numerous tells etc. However, my play time is during the day most of the shroud groups this has happened on took more then 10 minutes to fill. I play during a slower time period when there really aren't hundreds on.

I'll admit I've never formed a Shroud raid. I have formed Vehla, Reaver, Titan, and Tempest Spine raids.

Ok that helps. Shroud differs a bit from most of those. While a key coregroup can easily control the results of those 4 raids, rendering the remaining player/character types not too crucial to success/failure, Shroud runs, to be very likely to succeed (mainly in part4), often require more care in assembling. Many of the posters to this thread probably spend a lot of their playtime in "primetime" and are thus basing their responses on the levels of activity they see at 10 PM for example. Shroud is one raid where every time you run it, you are almost guarenteed to get something to keep from it (ingredients - unless you are unlucky 10+ times) and thus make progress towards a crafting goal. So lots of people run it...a lot.

[Kawiki]

Did not read the whole thread but dude come on. Just join a pug that has caster up. The shroud is pretty easy for a caster and if you ran it before you probably have an idea of what to do. If not the following won't embarass you:

Pt1: Run ahead of the group killing the portal spawns. (Finger them don't do silly stuff like trying to nuke them)

Pt2: You'll probably be asked to do one of two things - Either help with the elemental or camp the crystal. (trick that some casters dont know is you can drop a couple firewalls on the crystal before the barrier goes down, one high one low.)

Pt3 Solve your puzzle run water

Pt4 A web or CC where you zone in a fog on the PF, debuff him if you have it then polar ray with an eye on keeping yourself alive and saving some mana incase it goes more then 2 rounds.

Pt5 - buff melee when you come up, get SP back then cloud, debuff the PF when he drops then polar ray.

Raven you seem like a nice guy but you really need to lose some of your "give a ****" for things that REALLY dont matter.

[negative]

Just caught up with this thread since that last time I posted.

Here's my take. Hit the join button. Stop with the "I have no self-esteem" tells and grow a backbone. Either you think you have the ability to complete the quest (even if it's your first time on class X) and you hit join, or you don't, and you don't waste everyone's time sending tells about how you don't think you are good enough to join.

Because that's what it sounds like when you send those tells, moreso when you are too timid to hit the join button. Regardless of wether or not the group minds walking you through the quest for your first time, sending tells that like just sounds like you have no confidence in your abilities. Stop worrying so much about wether the group is going to yell at you for screwing up, get in there, and learn the quest.

As I said before, I think hitting join, and sending a quick tell like "first time on wiz, but I'm experianced with the mission" is fine. But the way some of the rest of you are posting in this thread, as a leader forming a raid, its going to come across like you don't know what you are doing and you don't think you can keep up. Why would anyone bring you into their party if you are going to advertise yourself like that?

[RavenStormclaw]

Did not read the whole thread but dude come on. Just join a pug that has caster up. The shroud is pretty easy for a caster and if you ran it before you probably have an idea of what to do. If not the following won't embarass you:

Pt1: Run ahead of the group killing the portal spawns. (Finger them don't do silly stuff like trying to nuke them)

Pt2: You'll probably be asked to do one of two things - Either help with the elemental or camp the crystal. (trick that some casters dont know is you can drop a couple firewalls on the crystal before the barrier goes down, one high one low.)

Pt3 Solve your puzzle run water

Pt4 A web or CC where you zone in a fog on the PF, debuff him if you have it then polar ray with an eye on keeping yourself alive and saving some mana incase it goes more then 2 rounds.

Pt5 - buff melee when you come up, get SP back then cloud, debuff the PF when he drops then polar ray.

Raven you seem like a nice guy but you really need to lose some of your "give a ****" for things that REALLY dont matter.

Thank you

[TEK]

people are actually understanding each other and respecting each other here on the DDO forums?!?!?!?!

Dear GOD people this against Troll forum guidelines (TFG)!!!!! Somebody better start insulting someone point of view real quick or im gonna start reporting people!!!!!!:D

[RavenStormclaw]

Just caught up with this thread since that last time I posted.

Here's my take. Hit the join button. Stop with the "I have no self-esteem" tells and grow a backbone. Either you think you have the ability to complete the quest (even if it's your first time on class X) and you hit join, or you don't, and you don't waste everyone's time sending tells about how you don't think you are good enough to join.

Because that's what it sounds like when you send those tells, moreso when you are too timid to hit the join button. Regardless of wether or not the group minds walking you through the quest for your first time, sending tells that like just sounds like you have no confidence in your abilities. Stop worrying so much about wether the group is going to yell at you for screwing up, get in there, and learn the quest.

As I said before, I think hitting join, and sending a quick tell like "first time on wiz, but I'm experianced with the mission" is fine. But the way some of the rest of you are posting in this thread, as a leader forming a raid, its going to come across like you don't know what you are doing and you don't think you can keep up. Why would anyone bring you into their party if you are going to advertise yourself like that?

Already asked and answered why I was doing it that way. Re-read some of my earlier posts. Basically its because I got burned...and you know the old saying "Once bitten twice shy!"

[Sirea]

You're the type that blames the victims aren't you?

And what, precisely, do you mean by that statement? And how does it have any bearing on the argument?

But for the record, I have a disdain for people who run around looking for sympathy for their own ignorance, when the problem is easily rectified.

[RavenStormclaw]

And what, precisely, do you mean by that statement? And how does it have any bearing on the argument?

But for the record, I have a disdain for people who run around looking for sympathy for their own ignorance, when the problem is easily rectified.

Well Sirea if you don't understand it I am not going to bother to explain it. The point would be lost anyway.

For the record I never asked for or wanted any sympathy. So where you are getting that from I have no idea. I perceived a problem. I spoke my mind. I have that right.

You have the right to disagree with me. You did.

I have disdain for people who presume to know what others are thinking or asking for. You presumed I was lookinng for sympathy. You were wrong!

[Sirea]

Well Sirea if you don't understand it I am not going to bother to explain it. The point would be lost anyway.

For the record I never asked for or wanted any sympathy. So where you are getting that from I have no idea. I perceived a problem. I spoke my mind. I have that right.

You have the right to disagree with me. You did.

I have disdain for people who presume to know what others are thinking or asking for. You presumed I was lookinng for sympathy. You were wrong!

Please. If you can't back up your previous statement just goes to show it was a weak statement to begin with, if you can't be bothered to elaborate when I ask for more details. At least man up and defend your position.

Why would you have posted to begin with if you weren't looking for some sort of attention/sympathy? Instead you made yourself look bad because people assume you don't know how to properly apply to an LFM.

[negative]

Already asked and answered why I was doing it that way. Re-read some of my earlier posts. Basically its because I got burned...and you know the old saying "Once bitten twice shy!"

Stop worrying so much about wether the group is going to yell at you for screwing up, get in there, and learn the quest.
Meh.

[RavenStormclaw]

Please. If you can't back up your previous statement just goes to show it was a weak statement to begin with, if you can't be bothered to elaborate when I ask for more details. At least man up and defend your position.

Why would you have posted to begin with if you weren't looking for some sort of attention/sympathy? Instead you made yourself look bad because people assume you don't know how to properly apply to an LFM.

Well I was trying to avoid embarassing you but Ok. It means that I stated there was a probem ie not responding to a tell... in this case that is the crime in this hypothetical. I said it was impolite to ignore tell... in this case mine. In this instance that makes me the victim (not really but we are rolling with a hypothetical here). You said it was my fault. Therefore you are blaming the victim of a crime rather then the one who committed it.

Second, I have defended my postion and will continue to do so. Of more importance you have missed the point by a mile. It has nothing to do with how to respond to an LFM. I beg you to show me a rule written anywhere that says I have respond to an LFM by hiting the join button as opposed to sending a tell. Please can you.... of course you can't. Because it doesn't exist. Therefore you can not tell me how I am doing it is wrong. You can suggest alternatives but you have no factual basis for telling me it is wrong.

This is what is wrong with society. Instead of admitting a problem... there's got to be someone to blame other then yourself. Well I don't need or want anyones attention or sympathy. I could ask you the same question why bother to respond in this thread if you're not looking for your 15 mintues of fame. I am far beyond needing attention or sympathy from complete strangers.

I brought this up because (cue Hulk Hogans entrance music) "I fight for the rights of the common man"

[branmakmuffin]

Raven you seem like a nice guy but you really need to lose some of your "give a ****" for things that REALLY dont matter.
This is a computer game. None of it matters. People who don't have time for courtesy while playing a game need to get over their bad selves.

[Sirea]

Well I was trying to avoid embarassing you but Ok. It means that I stated there was a probem ie not responding to a tell... in this case that is the crime in this hypothetical. I said it was impolite to ignore tell... in this case mine. In this instance that makes me the victim (not really but we are rolling with a hypothetical here). You said it was my fault. Therefore you are blaming the victim of a crime rather then the one who committed it.

Second, I have defended my postion and will continue to do so. Of more importance you have missed the point by a mile. It has nothing to do with how to respond to an LFM. I beg you to show me a rule written anywhere that says I have respond to an LFM by hiting the join button as opposed to sending a tell. Please can you.... of course you can't. Because it doesn't exist. Therefore you can not tell me how I am doing it is wrong. You can suggest alternatives but you have no factual basis for telling me it is wrong.

This is what is wrong with society. Instead of admitting a problem... there's got to be someone to blame other then yourself. Well I don't need or want anyones attention or sympathy. I could ask you the same question why bother to respond in this thread if you're not looking for your 15 mintues of fame. I am far beyond needing attention or sympathy from complete strangers.

I brought this up because (cue Hulk Hogans entrance music) "I fight for the rights of the common man"

ROFLMAO. Stop trying to make yourself look like some kind of martyr. If you are implying that I blame victims of real-life crimes in which the victims had no control over the situation, then you'd be dead wrong. You have control over this situation to change the way you are doing things to stop becoming a "victim", and keep doing it the same way, and are still wondering why you keep being the "victim." That's called ignorance.

I still stick by my assertion that you are making something out of nothing. If you feel the need to send tells over-explaining yourself to party leaders, you're going to sound not confident in your playing abilities and the leader is probably going to assume you are some noob trying to hype yourself up. If you do what other have said, join the group, say "I know the quest, but it's my first time as a caster, I can leave if you want someone more experienced" you show you are willing to listen and learn and *most* people will probably be OK with that. How many times do you have to be told that before you believe it?

There are no "written rules" to responding to LFMs, nor did I say there were any. There is, however, a "socially acceptable" (in DDO standards) way of doing it. "When in Rome, do as the Romans do," as the saying goes. It'd be like going to a foreign country where waving at someone actually means something vulgar, and even after you learn this you still wave at people, and still wonder why you get dirty looks. After all, in your country it's a friendly gesture, so they are the ones in the wrong for treating you badly because of it.

Maybe you should look up the definition of "hypocritical" in the dictionary.

But man, thanks for proving me wrong, I sure learned my lesson :rolleyes: I guess my 15 minutes of fame is over :eek:

*cue The A-Team theme* "I pity the foo'" :cool:

[Coldest]

dunt dun dadunt dunt dunt dun dunt...

[RavenStormclaw]

ROFLMAO. Stop trying to make yourself look like some kind of martyr. If you are implying that I blame victims of real-life crimes in which the victims had no control over the situation, then you'd be dead wrong. You have control over this situation to change the way you are doing things to stop becoming a "victim", and keep doing it the same way, and are still wondering why you keep being the "victim." That's called ignorance.

I still stick by my assertion that you are making something out of nothing. If you feel the need to send tells over-explaining yourself to party leaders, you're going to sound not confident in your playing abilities and the leader is probably going to assume you are some noob trying to hype yourself up. If you do what other have said, join the group, say "I know the quest, but it's my first time as a caster, I can leave if you want someone more experienced" you show you are willing to listen and learn and *most* people will probably be OK with that. How many times do you have to be told that before you believe it?

There are no "written rules" to responding to LFMs, nor did I say there were any. There is, however, a "socially acceptable" (in DDO standards) way of doing it. "When in Rome, do as the Romans do," as the saying goes. It'd be like going to a foreign country where waving at someone actually means something vulgar, and even after you learn this you still wave at people, and still wonder why you get dirty looks. After all, in your country it's a friendly gesture, so they are the ones in the wrong for treating you badly because of it.

Maybe you should look up the definition of "hypocritical" in the dictionary.

But man, thanks for proving me wrong, I sure learned my lesson :rolleyes: I guess my 15 minutes of fame is over :eek:

*cue The A-Team theme* "I pity the foo'" :cool:

Well i pity you for having no idea of common decency and good manners.

That is all there is nothing left to be said.

[QuantumFX]

i Have Disdain For People Who Presume To Know What Others Are Thinking Or Asking For.

Orly?


the Problem I Have Is The Shear Number Of People Who Simply Ignore Me.

more Then Half Simply Ignore Me And Never Respond.

[RavenStormclaw]

Orly?

And your point?

/casts firewall to drive away the trolls because at this point that's all that's left.... I am outta here to!

[Elaril]

Pt2: You'll probably be asked to do one of two things - Either help with the elemental or camp the crystal. (trick that some casters dont know is you can drop a couple firewalls on the crystal before the barrier goes down, one high one low.)

As an addition to this post, you don't actually have to place your firewalls in different places. Just stack like five fw's on the crystal and watch them all go off at once.

[sjwalker1973]

The OP infers courtesy to be 'common-place'. You haven't been out in the real world lately have you?

[arikka_hador]

The problem is the way some people compartmentalize and categorize different aspects of the game, e.g., guild housing is "fluff," yet quests and raids are "content." It's all content, just as you assert that all the game (aside from creating a character and running the tutorial) is social. And of course when someone says "Quests are social and the rest of the game is not," what he means is that he needs other players to help do raid X, but that he does not need other players to help go see the trainer. For such a person, even raids are not "social" in the way I think you mean.

Reading this, I felt oddly refreshed. This is a very insightful point.

[branmakmuffin]

Reading this, I felt oddly refreshed. This is a very insightful point.
Thanks. :)

And of course I don't really care if others play "we are just a bunch of individuals gathered together for mutual support to run this raid." I just prefer not to play that way and don't play with people who do.

[arikka_hador]

And of course I don't really care if others play "we are just a bunch of individuals gathered together for mutual support to run this raid." I just prefer not to play that way and don't play with people who do.

I completely agree. I come here to have fun, and part of that fun is the interaction with my friends, and even complete strangers at times, too. ^_^

[Junts]

Let the guildies do the toon shuffle BEFORE putting up the LFM please...

Pretty easy to do it that way, and much more considerate to the rest of us...

Also adds 5-10 minutes to the forming of the raid, which is why I don't.

[Junts]

Finally got a chance to read the whole thread, and I'd like to ask a very honest question, if I may.

In the past, what I used to do was click Join, and then send a tell to the leader along the lines of, "I'm a <level> <race> <class>. I normally do <things I feel I'm strong at>. <Mention Healer's Friend, if obtained at that level.>. Need a hand?"

But after reading this thread, I'm honestly curious if that's considered a "waste of time" and would be ignored by people at this time. From reading over the thread, it sounds like people either don't want to step on others' toes, and help make their joining as smooth and polite as possible (I'm in that group.), while others just want to go with as minimal conversation as possible and get the quest moving and done ASAP. It seems that the only "accepted" way of getting into a party is to click Join, don't send a tell, and just get to the quest right when you get accepted in order to start quickly. . .

Why is someone looked down upon for wanting to help the leader out by explaining what they can do, and asking if they sound like someone they may need? It almost feels like no one wants to actually communicate anymore, but instead just get to 16 as soon as possible on as many characters as possible in order to cap/loot/in some instances, complain there's nothing left to do.

Have people really turned away from the social aspect of the game that much. . .? If so, that's hard for me to understand and take in. . .

I'm sorry if I'm understanding this the wrong way; I'm just really confused at where this part of the game did a complete 180, and trying to figure out the best way to compensate in order for me to get back into the PuGging scene quickly (because my friends all know I want to level badly, and this fear of PuGs is only holding me back. . .)

-D



What Lorien said; also, if you have a -really- wierd build, you might pre-emptively send a tell that says 'i do x', if your class mix doesn't imply it (for example, the twf pure battlebard might want to note they're a dps thing, since most battlebards havea splash level or two to give themaway .. similarly, a 15/1 wiz/fighter battlewizard doesn't need to say anything, because the 1f gives it away. I once had my lfm hit by a '8 pal 6 sor 2 monk', suffice to say I did have to ask him *** his build did :P

[Fenrisulven6]

Again you have it wrong. The LFM is the smoke signals. The tell is the telegraph. If you want to ignore a tell then do so. Please be my guest. However do not defend that by saying my sending a tell is wasting the group leaders time. You are defending rudeness by being rude? Well that seems illogical. Again this in an MMO... its a social game. One with many more adults then children. I would expect to be ignored in WOW... not here.

I agree with you up to the point of expecting a response to the tell. I admit that it irritates me when I get no response from a join request, esp after I've already grabbed P buffs so the party won't have to wait on me to catch up.

But I always assume the leader is simply trying to manage his time & group, instead of politely responding to everyone who pinged his LFM. Have you led many groups? Not to be rude, but I think if you'd have a better perspective if you were always the one putting up the LFM.

[branmakmuffin]

The OP infers courtesy to be 'common-place'. You haven't been out in the real world lately have you?
Ah, so, the world is full of rude people, so it's OK to be rude. The world has plenty of people who like to make fun of other people's ethnicity, so is that OK, too?

The phrase "two wrongs don't make a right" springs to mind.


I agree with you up to the point of expecting a response to the tell. I admit that it irritates me when I get no response from a join request, esp after I've already grabbed P buffs so the party won't have to wait on me to catch up.

But I always assume the leader is simply trying to manage his time & group, instead of politely responding to everyone who pinged his LFM. Have you led many groups? Not to be rude, but I think if you'd have a better perspective if you were always the one putting up the LFM.
If everyone's time is so precious, why are they wasting their time playing DDO?

[ShaeNightbird]

There are a lot of rude, overly aggressive people out there. In game, in RL, it's a common problem. That certainly doesn't make it right. Just because the herd does something doesn't legitimise it somehow. The best defense I have against such things is not being like that myself, and being rude just because someone's rude to me.

I personally take offense at someone examining my build, deciding it's 'wrong' somehow, and making harsh judgements based on that, but I don't resort to rudeness because I'm miffed either. Being rude back will only cause a bad situation to escalate. If someone puts my build under a microscope and judges me, it's not going to matter how good a player I might be, because their mind's all made up and closed already, so I'm not going to get any real chance there anyway.There are some so called weird builds out there, but they work, because the people playing them play them well. But that doesn't seem to be taken into account.

And what also doesn't seem to be taken into account many times, is that there are people behind these characters, and to disrespect someone by ignoring their attempts to contact you if you put up an LFM is just wrong. If you have filled your team, and you don't want any more tells from people looking to join whilst you're in the middle of battle, take your LFM down. Answer the tells coming in before you get ready to go. It really doesn't take much time to reply "Sorry, we're full, thanks anyway". Another option is to use /afk with your "Team's Full" message. If you aren't on auto AFK, you can still be out there questing and anyone sending you a tell will receive the message that you assigned to the 'reason' for the AFK. This way if you're in the thick of things, and tells come in, they'll be automatically returned with the message.

[Fenrisulven6]

It really doesn't take much time to reply "Sorry, we're full, thanks anyway".

Actually for me it does, since I use a stick and my keyboard is off to the side in low or no light. Doesn't help that names to send tells to are "Drrirtz" or was it "Drrirtz"?

But seriously, those who insist its a simple thing for the group leader to respond to each and everyone who pings his LFM should look up everyone in this thread and send them a polite PM thanking them for their participation. Do so and I might be more sympathetic.

/not meant to be a slam at you Shae, I've got nothing but respect for your forum manners.

[SableShadow]

But seriously, those who insist its a simple thing for the group leader to respond to each and everyone who pings his LFM should look up everyone in this thread and send them a polite PM thanking them for their participation. Do so and I might be more sympathetic.


I agree. It doesn't seem to occur to a lot of the participants in this thread that courtesy ought to be extended to the group leader as well, not just to the folks sending tells.

[Fenrisulven6]

I feel like I'm on the wrong side of this b/c I agree about the lack of common courtesy in many groups I've run with.

But I just noticed the OPs post is about getting into Shroud. I've led groups, but never a raid. Seems a bit unreasonable to expect a response from a raid leader as she's forming up her group.

[Zenako]

And many of the replies were in the specific context of the OPs first statement.

I think many of us would agree that more courtesy in game would be a fine and welcome addition. Frankly most of those who are bleeps in the game, soon find their gaming circles getting less robust with time.

[Kylani]

Thanks. :)

And of course I don't really care if others play "we are just a bunch of individuals gathered together for mutual support to run this raid." I just prefer not to play that way and don't play with people who do.

I'm newly back to this game, so too much of a newbie to do the raids anyway, but I must say, if I do get to that point, I'd rather play with people who feel like you do. I've enjoyed your posts. Thanks.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Well i pity you for having no idea of common decency and good manners.

That is all there is nothing left to be said.

That was neither a show of common decency or good manners. Didn't your mommy teach you that if you can't say something nice keep your mouth shut?

On the positive side the irony of you doing that was amusing.

[RavenStormclaw]

Just for clarification I have led group and raids. Never a Shroud I will admit but others. I, personally, have never not responded to a tell of any kind. Heck just yesterday I recieved a blind tell from someone I did not know or had every grouped with. I assume they were new because they were asking me what points to level up on a Paladin. I was in the middle of a quest.... a little irritated at it. But I did respond with an answer... I mean a legitimate answer to the question.

That's just my style and my level of respect for others. There are people on this forum I loathe but I try not to disrespect anyone even though I know I have lost my temper before.

Courtesy and respect go hand in hand. "You can't have one without the other" (sung to Married with Children theme song"

[RavenStormclaw]

That was neither a show of common decency or good manners. Didn't your mommy teach you that if you can't say something nice keep your mouth shut?

On the positive side the irony of you doing that was amusing.

Hey everyone looses their temper and that was in direct response to some of her more blatant insults. You can't isolate that statement without the context in which it is said. I know you know that Lorien. I find it amusing you would isolate a statement said in the context of a specific argument and try to generalize it. It fails the generalization test. Therefore the argument fails.

Of cousre you have not been nice either so is this a two way street or what?

[branmakmuffin]

Actually for me it does, since I use a stick and my keyboard is off to the side in low or no light. Doesn't help that names to send tells to are "Drrirtz" or was it "Drrirtz"?

But seriously, those who insist its a simple thing for the group leader to respond to each and everyone who pings his LFM should look up everyone in this thread and send them a polite PM thanking them for their participation. Do so and I might be more sympathetic.
This deserves a quote from me:


If [your] time is so precious, why are they wasting [it] playing DDO?

[ShaeNightbird]

Actually for me it does, since I use a stick and my keyboard is off to the side in low or no light. Doesn't help that names to send tells to are "Drrirtz" or was it "Drrirtz"?

But seriously, those who insist its a simple thing for the group leader to respond to each and everyone who pings his LFM should look up everyone in this thread and send them a polite PM thanking them for their participation. Do so and I might be more sympathetic.

/not meant to be a slam at you Shae, I've got nothing but respect for your forum manners. Thank you. I do try to behave politely. Sometimes it doesn't always happen, but I try. The suggestion I made concerning the /AFK <group status message here> actually works very well, because the leader need not do anything at all, the system will respond to whomever is sending the tell.

[eonfreon]

If everyone's time is so precious, why are they wasting their time playing DDO?

As far as "precious" time goes:
I determine what I will "waste" my "valuable" time on.
I will determine if playing DDO, or ANY activity, is a desirable use of my "precious" time or not.
And your determination of what is or is not a waste of precious time is completely irrelevant to me.

[branmakmuffin]

As far as "precious" time goes:
I determine what I will "waste" my "valuable" time on.
I will determine if playing DDO, or ANY activity, is a desirable use of my "precious" time or not.
And your determination of what is or is not a waste of precious time is completely irrelevant to me.
Hallelujah!

Translation of eofreon's post: "I am so uber, I can't be bothered to be decent and polite, even when playing a game."

[SableShadow]

Heck just yesterday I recieved a blind tell from someone I did not know or had every grouped with. I assume they were new because they were asking me what points to level up on a Paladin. I was in the middle of a quest.... a little irritated at it.

A blind tell can be rude?

[branmakmuffin]

A blind tell can be rude?
Even I have to agree here. Like what else is there to do, send a tell asking if it's OK to send a tell? Blind party invites are rude, blind guild invites are rude.

[SableShadow]

Even I have to agree here. Like what else is there to do, send a tell asking if it's OK to send a tell? Blind party invites are rude, blind guild invites are rude.

Maybe not assume silence = rudeness? :D

A lotta this thread puts the burden on the recipient; courtesy, if it exists at all, has to be extended both ways.

[TEK]

Maybe not assume silence = rudeness? :D

A lotta this thread puts the burden on the recipient; courtesy, if it exists at all, has to be extended both ways.

touche :D

[SableShadow]

touche :D

Personally, I have a tab just for tells; it's hugely convenient. I like being responded to, so I make it a point to have a way to respond to missed tells.

I've responded to a tell an hour later (lost tell in combat spam, forgot about it until halfway through the next quest, whatever), to the amusement of the people who sent the original tell, but at least I got back to them. :)

And, yeah, sometimes I get annoyed when I don't get a tell back. I just remind myself there's no way for me to know what's going on the /tell target's end, and it's not worth getting worked up about.

[TEK]

Personally, I have a tab just for tells; it's hugely convenient. I like being responded to, so I make it a point to have a way to respond to missed tells.

I've responded to a tell an hour later (lost tell in combat spam, forgot about it until halfway through the next quest, whatever), to the amusement of the people who sent the original tell, but at least I got back to them. :)

And, yeah, sometimes I get annoyed when I don't get a tell back. I just remind myself there's no way for me to know what's going on the /tell target's end, and it's not worth getting worked up about.

I tried that once doesnt work for me. I use practically all my tabs(general, guild, party, combat, officer) and having to switch to yet another tab for just tells kinda sucks.

what i did instead is restrict the tabs as far as incoming traffic goes except for general and have tells come to all tabs.

[SableShadow]

I tried that once doesnt work for me. I use practically all my tabs(general, guild, party, combat, officer) and having to switch to yet another tab for just tells kinda sucks.

what i did instead is restrict the tabs as far as incoming traffic goes except for general and have tells come to all tabs.

Oh, I mean in addition to having tells come to all tabs.

I only go to my tells tab to check between quests to see if I've missed one, or if I know I got one but was too busy to respond at the time I got it. Much quicker and more convenient than having to scroll back through pages of other text.

[TEK]

Oh, I mean in addition to having tells come to all tabs.

I only go to my tells tab to check between quests to see if I've missed one, or if I know I got one but was too busy to respond at the time I got it. Much quicker and more convenient than having to scroll back through pages of other text.

hmmm. currently that might be worth looking into

[branmakmuffin]

Maybe not assume silence = rudeness? :D
When it comes to tells, "silence = rudeness."


A lotta this thread puts the burden on the recipient; courtesy, if it exists at all, has to be extended both ways.
If someone sends me a tell, I reply. Might I have not done it and forgotten? Sure, but my recollection is that I have always replied to tells and it is my intention to always do so.

Your own assertion (or implication) is that "blind tells" (as if there's any other kind) are not rude. Therefore, immediately following the initial tell, the only way courtesy flows in that case is from the recipient of the tell to the sender. It's like passing someone in the street and ignoring them if they say "Hi." If given the opportunity, would you say to that person "You know, courtesy goes both ways. For all you know, I might be in a bad mood, so be prepared to be treated rudely when you force you unwanted 'Hi' on me?"

Just because it's a computer game does not mean it's OK to be rude, although apparently some think so, because their time is so precious that they can't take a few seconds to reply to a tell.

[SableShadow]

When it comes to tells, "silence = rudeness."

kk


If someone sends me a tell, I reply. Might I have not done it and forgotten? Sure, but my recollection is that I have always replied to tells and it is my intention to always do so.

As do I. Hence, organizing my chat tabs (and colors...tells get a Bold Yellow) to make it less likely to miss a tell.




"blind tells" (as if there's any other kind)

Plenty of solicited tells in game...otherwise, how would we both know what "pst" means?


Therefore, immediately following the initial tell, the only way courtesy flows in that case is from the recipient of the tell to the sender.

Like I said, it's popular to put the burden of courtesy on someone else.


It's like passing someone in the street and ignoring them if they say "Hi." If given the opportunity, would you say to that person "You know, courtesy goes both ways. For all you know, I might be in a bad mood, so be prepared to be treated rudely when you force you unwanted 'Hi' on me?"

....and if their mind is simply somewhere else, they may not be deliberately ignoring you, they may have just not heard or registered you. You don't know, for a fact, if the person who didn't return your "Hi" is being deliberately rude without additional information (e.g. a harsh glare, a curl of the lip, whatever). True?

Maybe your chat windows are dead; I'm not you, so I can't tell. If someone's got other tells to deal with, managing guild, party, and channel chat, and trying to get his group formed...well, that can all add up to being very distracted and not able to deal with tells, yes?


Just because it's a computer game does not mean it's OK to be rude, although apparently some think so, because their time is so precious that they can't take a few seconds to reply to a tell.

We're disagreeing on what "rude" is, not that it's ok or not to be "rude".

Again, dude, this is my pov; if it doesn't speak to you, well then, it doesn't speak to you. Play the game how you like. If it works for you, go for it! ;)

[valczir]

Personally, I have a tab just for tells; it's hugely convenient. I like being responded to, so I make it a point to have a way to respond to missed tells. [snip]
Same. I actually keep two chat boxes up - a larger one where I keep my party or guild chat tab in the foreground (depending on which I'm typing the most to), and another that keeps track of /tells and a couple other very rarely used channels (RP, for one).

A couple days ago, I was logged in on my 9 monk and swapped to another virtual desktop (definition of virtual desktop to follow) and forgot that I was logged into DDO. I believe it was roughly seven hours, probably more, before I realized that I was still logged in. Turns out I had received tells asking me to join various groups. I sent a tell to each, apologizing for not answering and explaining how I had just kinda forgotten DDO was open (granted, this was partially 'cause I thought that it was funny and wanted to share). Most laughed. The rest weren't online.

I am adamant about not taking the game too seriously (it's a freaking game), and I feel like not responding to tells just makes me look arrogant, like I don't think they're good enough for a reply. So I do my best to respond, no matter what - even if they received the auto-afk message.

Definition of virtual desktop:
I use linux (for everything), where virtual desktops are the norm; a virtual desktop is kind of a simulation of multiple monitors. You can hit a key combination to swap to another virtual desktop, kinda like moving to another monitor. If you've seen the compiz desktop effects (there are plenty of youtube videos for compiz), the rotating cube is the virtual desktop switcher - each side of the cube is a different virtual desktop. You can have a movie running on one side, a game on another, web browsers on another, IMs on another, etc. It's great for organization purposes, but it's really bad if you're prone to forget to log out of things.

[Eelpout]

When it comes to tells, "silence = rudeness."


If someone sends me a tell, I reply. Might I have not done it and forgotten? Sure, but my recollection is that I have always replied to tells and it is my intention to always do so.

Your own assertion (or implication) is that "blind tells" (as if there's any other kind) are not rude. Therefore, immediately following the initial tell, the only way courtesy flows in that case is from the recipient of the tell to the sender. It's like passing someone in the street and ignoring them if they say "Hi." If given the opportunity, would you say to that person "You know, courtesy goes both ways. For all you know, I might be in a bad mood, so be prepared to be treated rudely when you force you unwanted 'Hi' on me?"

Just because it's a computer game does not mean it's OK to be rude, although apparently some think so, because their time is so precious that they can't take a few seconds to reply to a tell.


I would really like to respond to this... If only I had the time.

[eonfreon]

Hallelujah!

Translation of eofreon's post: "I am so uber, I can't be bothered to be decent and polite, even when playing a game."

Wow.
Thanks for translating something so completely wrong.
I would love to know how you came up with all that.
All I said was that you don't get to tell me what is and is not a "waste" of my time, not in RL nor in a game.
I have no problem with you at all Bran, although I find a lot of what you say contrary to any logic I think of.
I am not saying that ignoring a tell is or is not rude.
All I'm asking is who appointed you to tell anyone what is or is not a "waste" of time?

[Eelpout]

Wow.
Thanks for translating something so completely wrong.
I would love to know how you came up with all that.
All I said was that you don't get to tell me what is and is not a "waste" of my time, not in RL nor in a game.
I have no problem with you at all Bran, although I find a lot of what you say contrary to any logic I think of.
I am not saying that ignoring a tell is or is not rude.
All I'm asking is who appointed you to tell anyone what is or is not a "waste" of time?

One man election. He got the majority vote.:D

[Gathor_Stormforge]

When it comes to tells, "silence = rudeness."


If someone sends me a tell, I reply. Might I have not done it and forgotten? Sure, but my recollection is that I have always replied to tells and it is my intention to always do so.

Your own assertion (or implication) is that "blind tells" (as if there's any other kind) are not rude. Therefore, immediately following the initial tell, the only way courtesy flows in that case is from the recipient of the tell to the sender. It's like passing someone in the street and ignoring them if they say "Hi." If given the opportunity, would you say to that person "You know, courtesy goes both ways. For all you know, I might be in a bad mood, so be prepared to be treated rudely when you force you unwanted 'Hi' on me?"

Just because it's a computer game does not mean it's OK to be rude, although apparently some think so, because their time is so precious that they can't take a few seconds to reply to a tell.

I don't see sending a blind tell as being equal to a hello on the street. I see it more as walking over to someone that is busy doing something and interrupting that to say hello.

[branmakmuffin]

Plenty of solicited tells in game...otherwise, how would we both know what "pst" means?
The very first one has to be unsolicited (unless arrangements have been made via some other communications method: "Did you see my /emote telling you I was going to send you a tell?", which seems rather outlandish).


....and if their mind is simply somewhere else, they may not be deliberately ignoring you, they may have just not heard or registered you. You don't know, for a fact, if the person who didn't return your "Hi" is being deliberately rude without additional information (e.g. a harsh glare, a curl of the lip, whatever). True?
If someone says "Hi" and you ignore them, they know nothing of what's going on in your mind, so "I said 'Hi' to you, and you ignored me. How rude" is the likely conclusion. Are most people prepared to deal with rudeness? Of course. Does that mean if shouldn't be discouraged? Of course not.


I am not saying that ignoring a tell is or is not rude.
Care to take a stand on this? Either you think it is, or you think it's not.

[RavenStormclaw]

A blind tell can be rude?

I am sorry I never said a blind tell was rude. I used that example to substaniate my statement that I respond to each and every tell I get. I wasn't even talking about rundess. If you had read my whole post all I said was I respond to every tell I get even the blind tells from people I don't know asking questions other then "hey wanna do quest x" My whole post had notihng to do with rudeness. Never even mentioned the word in the post. It was a response on my personally philosophy on responding to tells (the whole point of this thread) and a example of such.

[ShaeNightbird]

The very first one has to be unsolicited (unless arrangements have been made via some other communications method: "Did you see my /emote telling you I was going to send you a tell?", which seems rather outlandish).


If someone says "Hi" and you ignore them, they know nothing of what's going on in your mind, so "I said 'Hi' to you, and you ignored me. How rude" is the likely conclusion. Are most people prepared to deal with rudeness? Of course. Does that mean if shouldn't be discouraged? Of course not.


Care to take a stand on this? Either you think it is, or you think it's not.

/signed.
I definitely agree.

[Eelpout]

I don't see sending a blind tell as being equal to a hello on the street. I see it more as walking over to someone that is busy doing something and interrupting that to say hello.

Unless your character is right next to the other person's character, all the tells are blind. If I send a tell, I have no idea if the person is busy or not. It is not my goal to interrupt what they are doing, and if it takes them a little bit to get back to me, no big deal.

If you are the street and not just standing still, aren't you still, at least slightly busy? Even if you are just heading to a specific destination?

[SableShadow]

The very first one has to be unsolicited (unless arrangements have been made via some other communications method: "Did you see my /emote telling you I was going to send you a tell?", which seems rather outlandish).

You've *never* seen "pst" in an lfm or on a person's lfg comment? :eek:

[SableShadow]

I am sorry I never said a blind tell was rude. I used that example to substaniate my statement that I respond to each and every tell I get. I wasn't even talking about rundess. If you had read my whole post all I said was I respond to every tell I get even the blind tells from people I don't know asking questions other then "hey wanna do quest x" My whole post had notihng to do with rudeness. Never even mentioned the word in the post. It was a response on my personally philosophy on responding to tells (the whole point of this thread) and a example of such.

The tell was inconsiderate, though? Yes?

[branmakmuffin]

You've *never* seen "pst" in an lfm or on a person's lfg comment? :eek:
Now that you mention it again, I do see what you mean.


The tell was inconsiderate, though? Yes?
The only way a tell could ever be inconsiderate is if someone has an LFM up which says "No tells please" (I don't know why I spaced out on the "please send tell" because I have seen "No tells, please" in LFMs).

[eonfreon]

Care to take a stand on this? Either you think it is, or you think it's not.

A stand? LOL.
No, I think it depends on the situation.
If someone doesn't notice the Tell because his attention is elsewhere and then it scrolls away, the sender will most likely think; "how rude", while the recipient will be completely unaware of the situation.
Yes, I think it would be "rude" to completely ignore someone on purpose.
However, I also think it barely matters.
So my stance is that yes, it could be rude, depending on the situation, but that even if it is, it isn't something worth worrying oneself over.
Vent, if you feel the need, as the OP did, which is fine, then move on.

[branmakmuffin]

A stand? LOL.
No, I think it depends on the situation.
There's only one time when sending a tell is rude, and that's when the sender knows the recipient does not wish to receive tells.

Ignoring a non-rude tell is always rude.

[SableShadow]

No, I think it depends on the situation.


LIEZ! It is obvious to the most casual observer that the topic is utterly black and white. ;)

[ShaeNightbird]

I've seen LFM's which say "Group full, no more tells, please." If people know there's a raid going on, chances are good that they've read the LFM. Therefore, if they send a tell anyway, I would say that's definitely rude. Granted, there's always the honest mistake, where someone is asked in by a guildie or a friend, and sends a tell without seeing the LFM, but I've found that to be the exception not the rule.

[eonfreon]

There's only one time when sending a tell is rude, and that's when the sender knows the recipient does not wish to receive tells.

Ignoring a non-rude tell is always rude.

Well, I certainly never said simply sending a tell is rude, so I don't know why you keep bringing it up.

I was referring to the OP about RESPONDING to Tells, and THAT does indeed depend on the situation.

And I already said simply ignoring a tell is rude, it's in the part of the post you didn't quote.

[SableShadow]

Granted, there's always the honest mistake

Exactly. I try to make decisions as to whether someone is rude or not based on their behavior over time. Stereotyping them over one incident just doesn't make sense to me.

[bandyman1]

I've seen LFM's which say "Group full, no more tells, please." If people know there's a raid going on, chances are good that they've read the LFM. Therefore, if they send a tell anyway, I would say that's definitely rude. Granted, there's always the honest mistake, where someone is asked in by a guildie or a friend, and sends a tell without seeing the LFM, but I've found that to be the exception not the rule.

I've also seen and posted LFMs for raids that say " reserved ", and still end up bombarded by tells and join requests. If you know I'm not holding one of the spots for you, then this behavior is absolutely rude. No " ifs ", " ands ", or " buts " about it.

[RavenStormclaw]

The tell was inconsiderate, though? Yes?


I can only answer that as I guess it depends. If I am running around leveling, shopping, looking for something to do etc then definetly not. If I am in a quest...well it can be frustrating to get interrupted because lets face it human response when you hear that bing or see the letters is to look. In the middle of a battle that can be well,,,, you know. But I did answer it. And with an actual answer to the question. After all people who are new to the game, with no friends or guildies can need help and may not know how else to get it.

[branmakmuffin]

Well, I certainly never said simply sending a tell is rude, so I don't know why you keep bringing it up.
We're trying to figure out if you think ignoring a tell is rude, not sending a tell.


I was referring to the OP about RESPONDING to Tells, and THAT does indeed depend on the situation.

And I already said simply ignoring a tell is rude, it's in the part of the post you didn't quote.
So is it rude, or does it depend on the situation? It does depend on the situation, and the only time ignoring a tell is not rude is when the tell was rude in the first place, which, as I pointed out, is only when the recipient specified he or she did not want tells.

Again, ignoring non-rude tell is rude. I'm getting the feeling we agree on that.

Edit: And there's absolutely no excuse for "reserved" LFMs. That's not just rude, that's elitist. If a space is reserved and everyone knows who it's reserved for, that can all be handled via tells.

[eonfreon]

We're trying to figure out if you think ignoring a tell is rude, not sending a tell.


So is it rude, or does it depend on the situation? It does depend on the situation, and the only time ignoring a tell is not rude is when the tell was rude in the first place, which, as I pointed out, is only when the recipient specified he or she did not want tells.

Again, ignoring non-rude tell is rude. I'm getting the feeling we agree on that.

Edit: And there's absolutely no excuse for "reserved" LFMs. That's not just rude, that's elitist. If a space is reserved and everyone knows who it's reserved for, that can all be handled via tells.

Yes, IGNORING a tell is rude.
However, as you don't know that you are being ignored in all situations, you can't know if they are being purposefully rude or not.
They may have simply missed that Tell.
Then they are not rude, although the sender of the tell may certainly think them so.
"Reserved" LFM's rude? Elitist?
Huh?
Now you have completely lost me.
It is far easier to put up the LFM with "reserved" in the notes and wait for the people you're going to group with to hit the "join" button then to deal with Tells for 12 people.
You really get offended by folks with "reserved" LFMs?
If you do, would you care to explain why you get offended?

[SableShadow]

I can only answer that as I guess it depends.

How did you find the tell that you got and illustrated in your previous post? Would it have been more considerate on the part of the sender, who you don't know, to check the search list and, noting you were in mid-quest, wait until you were out before sending a tell asking for build advice?

Maybe I'm the only one who pays attention to where folks are in the lfms, or who uses the search list before sending a tell to someone who might be questing. *shrug*


If I am running around leveling, shopping, looking for something to do etc then definetly not. If I am in a quest...well it can be frustrating to get interrupted because lets face it human response when you hear that bing or see the letters is to look. In the middle of a battle that can be well,,,, you know.

That's kinda how I look at it also.


But I did answer it. And with an actual answer to the question. After all people who are new to the game, with no friends or guildies can need help and may not know how else to get it.

Sure. I've gotten tells even in mid fight that I don't mind at all:

Example, while doing the Kobold end fight:
(lfm: zerg, in progress, at end fight)

Them: "Excuse me, but are you doing the whole chain or just kobold?"
Me, between mephits: "cobol"
Them: "Ah, ty anyway"

The tell was worded politely, and to the point that I could shoot out a one word answer, garbled though it was. No long reply required, no harumphing, no continued "Are you sure?", just a quick "pls, question, ty". They were very respectful of me, I thought.

[branmakmuffin]

"Reserved" LFM's rude? Elitist?
Huh?
Now you have completely lost me.
It is far easier to put up the LFM with "reserved" in the notes and wait for the people you're going to group with to hit the "join" button then to deal with Tells for 12 people.
Oh, here we go again: "My time just way to valuable to waste replying to 11 tells."

You really get offended by folks with "reserved" LFMs?
If you do, would you care to explain why you get offended?
Are you kidding? I've never even seen one. I hardly ever look at the LFM panel because I never, ever PUG. I look once in a while just to kill a few seconds if I'm waiting for something.

Looks to me like the purpose of reserved LFMs is to let others on the server know who the self-styled l33ts are.

Edit: And arguably using the LFM panel for reserved groupings is not a permitted use of LFM, because LFM means "looking for more." If they membership has already been decided upon, no one is looking for anyone.

[Maya]

Looks to me like the purpose of reserved LFMs is to let others on the server know who the self-styled l33ts are.

Nope, wrong. Some people put up reserved LFM to make it easier for their friends in a channel to just click on the box to join. Good thing you never PUG, because why would it bother you at all anyway.

[branmakmuffin]

Nope, wrong. Some people put up reserved LFM to make it easier for their friends in a channel to just click on the box to join. Good thing you never PUG, because why would it bother you at all anyway.
Nope, wrong.

[RavenStormclaw]

How did you find the tell that you got and illustrated in your previous post? Would it have been more considerate on the part of the sender, who you don't know, to check the search list and, noting you were in mid-quest, wait until you were out before sending a tell asking for build advice?

I'll admit I was bit annoyed epsecially since it was Von 5 I was in at the time. However, all I can say is while I mave have been annoyed I did respond and I was polite.

Maybe I'm the only one who pays attention to where folks are in the lfms, or who uses the search list before sending a tell to someone who might be questing. *shrug*

Nope I check to. Don't want to interrupt people who may actually be fighting for their lives.



That's kinda how I look at it also.



Sure. I've gotten tells even in mid fight that I don't mind at all:

Example, while doing the Kobold end fight:
(lfm: zerg, in progress, at end fight)

Them: "Excuse me, but are you doing the whole chain or just kobold?"
Me, between mephits: "cobol"
Them: "Ah, ty anyway"

The tell was worded politely, and to the point that I could shoot out a one word answer, garbled though it was. No long reply required, no harumphing, no continued "Are you sure?", just a quick "pls, question, ty". They were very respectful of me, I thought.

Responses in blue. See we actually agree we just took a long time to get to it :)

However the orignal topic revolved around forming a party but I think we've kinda solved most of those issues.... I hope :D

[Maya]

Nope, wrong.

After a brief exchange with you over the forums, I believe it will be better if I simply add your name to the ignore options to avoid wasting my time reading your useless posts. I am sure you are very popular with the rest of the forum locals, being a DDO forums superstar and all with such eloquent and well written posts as the one quoted above.

[eonfreon]

Oh, here we go again: "My time just way to valuable to waste replying to 11 tells."

Are you kidding? I've never even seen one. I hardly ever look at the LFM panel because I never, ever PUG. I look once in a while just to kill a few seconds if I'm waiting for something.

Looks to me like the purpose of reserved LFMs is to let others on the server know who the self-styled l33ts are.

Edit: And arguably using the LFM panel for reserved groupings is not a permitted use of LFM, because LFM means "looking for more." If they membership has already been decided upon, no one is looking for anyone.

OMG. Bran, what are you talking about?
Where do you get the whole "My time just way to valuable to waste replying to 11 tells."
Stop putting words into my mouth, it's very rude.
LOL
What does using a "reserved" LFM have to do with replying to 11 tells?
LFM = Looking For More?
If you say so.
I thought LFM = "Looking For Members"
And yes, they are "Looking to gather their Members together".
Once again, why does it offend you, especially since you don't even use the LFM?

[branmakmuffin]

After a brief exchange with you over the forums, I believe it will be better if I simply add your name to the ignore options to avoid wasting my time reading your useless posts.
When one of those finally happens, we can all sit back in wonderment.

[Dexxaan]

Yes, IGNORING a tell is rude.
However, as you don't know that you are being ignored in all situations, you can't know if they are being purposefully rude or not.
They may have simply missed that Tell.
Then they are not rude, although the sender of the tell may certainly think them so.
"Reserved" LFM's rude? Elitist?
Huh?
Now you have completely lost me.
It is far easier to put up the LFM with "reserved" in the notes and wait for the people you're going to group with to hit the "join" button then to deal with Tells for 12 people.
You really get offended by folks with "reserved" LFMs?
If you do, would you care to explain why you get offended?

Please don't ask Muffinboy to explain anything..you're just gonna...darn! now you'll see what I mean......


Oh, here we go again: "My time just way to valuable to waste replying to 11 tells."

Are you kidding? I've never even seen one. I hardly ever look at the LFM panel because I never, ever PUG. I look once in a while just to kill a few seconds if I'm waiting for something.

Looks to me like the purpose of reserved LFMs is to let others on the server know who the self-styled l33ts are.

Edit: And arguably using the LFM panel for reserved groupings is not a permitted use of LFM, because LFM means "looking for more." If they membership has already been decided upon, no one is looking for anyone.

I warned you. The twists and turns.... I'm telling you Bran has more evasive moves than a Cha-Cha ballerina being hounded by Rico and his goons.

And of course he has very strong opinions on things he has no knowledge whatsoever.....and admits it in a way that somehow keep him thinking he's being misinterpreted!


Nope, wrong. Some people put up reserved LFM to make it easier for their friends in a channel to just click on the box to join. Good thing you never PUG, because why would it bother you at all anyway.

I agree with you Maya, being practical and/or excercising your right to be selective of who you let in YOUR group goes directly against the Muffin Way of Values and therefore you are...... L33Tist. :rolleyes:

[RavenStormclaw]

Nope, wrong. Some people put up reserved LFM to make it easier for their friends in a channel to just click on the box to join. Good thing you never PUG, because why would it bother you at all anyway.

I will say while I may not be totally offended I do find it a bit annoying that people do this. Especially when I am looking to do a particular raid or quest and see it pop up thinking hey great and just as I go to click on it I notice the text that says "reserved." Yeah it may be easier but a whole lot of people who may have wanted to do that quest/raid are now left out because they aren't in the in crowd.

I see your point but still it does seem like people are just looking for an easy button rahter then take the time to consider how others may view it. I am going to have to agree with Bran here.

[SableShadow]

Oh, here we go again: "My time just way to valuable to waste replying to 11 tells."

Raid leaders can be expending the time of up to 11 other people as well. How long does it take for the rudeness of wasting the time of 11 other people to equal the rudeness of ignoring eleven tells? :)


Are you kidding? I've never even seen one. I hardly ever look at the LFM panel because I never, ever PUG. I look once in a while just to kill a few seconds if I'm waiting for something.


Looks to me like the purpose of reserved LFMs is to let others on the server know who the self-styled l33ts are.

If you've never seen one in action, how can you make that judgement? :D


Responses in blue. See we actually agree we just took a long time to get to it :)

However the orignal topic revolved around forming a party but I think we've kinda solved most of those issues.... I hope :D

Sure sure! Most real communication takes time; language is a crappier medium than a lotta people realize. I think we actually made very good time. :)



Nope, wrong. I am sure you are very popular with the rest of the forum locals, being a DDO forums superstar and all with such eloquent and well written posts as the one quoted above.

I wouldn't exactly go that far....oops! nm, my sarcasm meter just pegged. :D

[RavenStormclaw]

Please don't ask Muffinboy to explain anything..you're just gonna...darn! now you'll see what I mean......






I agree with you Maya, being practical and/or excercising your right to be selective of who you let in YOUR group goes directly against the Muffin Way of Values and therefore you are...... L33Tist. :rolleyes:

Now come on Dex your treading on the fine lines of me trying to keep this discussion as civil as possible. Remember the cube see all :D

[branmakmuffin]

What does using a "reserved" LFM have to do with replying to 11 tells?

"Reserved" LFM's rude? Elitist?
Huh?
Now you have completely lost me.
It is far easier to put up the LFM with "reserved" in the notes and wait for the people you're going to group with to hit the "join" button then to deal with Tells for 12 people.
I assume you meant "tells for 11 people," since you're unlikely to send yourself a tell. They don't all need to send tells to each other, just the leader to say "Here I am. Invite please."


LFM = Looking For More?
If you say so.
I thought LFM = "Looking For Members"
And if it's "looking for members" and it's reserved, then the group membership is set, isn't it?

And I did say it was arguably a misuse of LFM.


Raid leaders can be expending the time of up to 11 other people as well. How long does it take for the rudeness of wasting the time of 11 other people to equal the rudeness of ignoring eleven tells? :)
Here we go again. If someone's time is that valuable, why are they wasting it playing a game?

[eonfreon]

Please don't ask Muffinboy to explain anything..you're just gonna...darn! now you'll see what I mean......



I warned you. The twists and turns.... I'm telling you Bran has more evasive moves than a Cha-Cha ballerina being hounded by Rico and his goons.

And of course he has very strong opinions on things he has no knowledge whatsoever.....and admits it in a way that somehow keep him thinking he's being misinterpreted!



I agree with you Maya, being practical and/or excercising your rght to either be selective of who you let in YOUR group goes directly against the Muffin Way of Values and therefore you are...... L33Tist. :rolleyes:

Sigh, I guess you're right.
Instead of discussing anything with me he just ignores most and jumps on single sentences and then blows them way out of context.
I don't think he does it on purpose exactly.
More of conditioned response.
He's so used to being attacked he goes straight into sarcasm/boring wit mode too quickly.
Oops, spoke too soon, he finally replied above, and not nearly as caustic as normal.

[SableShadow]

And I did say it was arguably a misuse of LFM.

Wow! Hope you limbered up a little there before you made that stretch. Didn't pull anything, I hope? :D

[GlassCannon]

Anyway sorry for the rant....just finally got to me after like the 20th time its happened.

For the record, in nearly every instance, I was monitoring the group for at least 5 mintuees (as I am patient and don't expect an immediate reply) and they would fill and go away without me ever getting a response.

Um... not to be rude, but... you aren't ignored. You get silently acknowledged, and either accepted or rejected. It's simple math. You cannot send 18 tells within 4 seconds without a macro to do it, especially with people slamming the Join button faster than you can click Accept.

As for those waiting 5 minutes, there is generally a large amount of communication happening that you don't see or hear that prevents them from talking to you. Send the leader a tell, and then if you don't get a reply it's either due to them being AFK, getting hit with tells from 3-4 people at the same time, or because they belong to "certain guilds" that are notorious for being Ԁ⊚⋒∁ḣℰs.

As for the 20th time, it would seem more like the 5th or 6th, but exaggerated to you by the time spent waiting patiently.

[eonfreon]

Here we go again. If someone's time is that valuable, why are they wasting it playing a game?

Once again, what makes you qualified to state what is or isn't a "waste" of another person's time?

[RavenStormclaw]

OMG. Bran, what are you talking about?
Where do you get the whole "My time just way to valuable to waste replying to 11 tells."
Stop putting words into my mouth, it's very rude.
LOL
What does using a "reserved" LFM have to do with replying to 11 tells?
LFM = Looking For More?
If you say so.
I thought LFM = "Looking For Members"
And yes, they are "Looking to gather their Members together".
Once again, why does it offend you, especially since you don't even use the LFM?

Its a bit annoying in the sense that people who may want that quest/raid are excluded because you essentially formed a group but are using the LFM panel as an easy button. It is exclusive. Right or wrong it is still excluisve.

[branmakmuffin]

Sigh, I guess you're right.
Instead of discussing anything with me he just ignores most and jumps on single sentences and then blows them way out of context.
The problem is you post something, I reply to it, then you say something like "What are you talking about?" when my reply was a direct reposed to what you wrote. In that case, you're sort of arguing with yourself.

Warning, the following reply contains exaggeration and sarcasm.


Once again, what makes you qualified to state what is or isn't a "waste" of another person's time?
If someone's (not necessarily yours) time is so valuable that they can't be bothered to be polite, obviously they shouldn't be playing a game, but negotiating peace in the Middle East or curing cancer. :rolleyes:

[RavenStormclaw]

Um... not to be rude, but... you aren't ignored. You get silently acknowledged, and either accepted or rejected. It's simple math. You cannot send 18 tells within 4 seconds without a macro to do it, especially with people slamming the Join button faster than you can click Accept.

As for those waiting 5 minutes, there is generally a large amount of communication happening that you don't see or hear that prevents them from talking to you. Send the leader a tell, and then if you don't get a reply it's either due to them being AFK, getting hit with tells from 3-4 people at the same time, or because they belong to "certain guilds" that are notorious for being <Why was this word filtered again?>.

As for the 20th time, it would seem more like the 5th or 6th, but exaggerated to you by the time spent waiting patiently.

Well you see you've hit on the crux of the debate: does not responding to a tell equate to being ignored and thus rude. Some say yes (a minority I realize but not a group of just one either) and some say no. One other thing Glass please do not presume to tell me how many times its been...unless your are God...in which case you would know I was telling the truth. Since you didn't you can not be God... therefore you can not know!

Furthermore, had you read the entire thread you would note somewhere I mention playing at off peak times when there really isn't a lot going on and these groups can take quite a while to fill. I acknwoledged that a high peak times the story is very different.

[RavenStormclaw]

Remeber to Smile today!

Exceptions allowed for: death of Homer Simpson, the end of the world, and if Mod 9 is delayed indefintely:D

[GlassCannon]

Furthermore, had you read the entire thread

You know that's against posting protocol! Of course I'm supposed to interject an opinion without reading anyone else's... it's procedure! If I actually read it, I would be going completely against the rules for making a forum post.

:p

Yes I know it bothers you, but sometimes things are simply maddening and you can't do much about it except shoulder the burden of the Star for a little while. Once a raid is formed and we're all inside, I chuck it around a few times until it rests on someone. It's just for forming parties anyway... not for actually leading them.

[GlassCannon]

death of Homer Simpson

Why wouldn't this make you smile? And don't say "Because Millhouse is a Meme"...

[RavenStormclaw]

Why wouldn't this make you smile? And don't say "Because Millhouse is a Meme"...

Ok truth be told it would... but if you tell anyone I will categorically deny it!

[eonfreon]

The problem is you post something, I reply to it, then you say something like "What are you talking about?" when my reply was a direct reposed to what you wrote. In that case, you're sort of arguing with yourself.

Warning, the following reply contains exaggeration and sarcasm.


If someone's (not necessarily yours) time is so valuable that they can't be bothered to be polite, obviously they shouldn't be playing a game, but negotiating peace in the Middle East or curing cancer. :rolleyes:

You know what?
I fell into the dumbest trap of singling out something you said out of context.
I do get where you're coming from.
I just edited my post from a silly "I said, then you said, then I said, which you then said etc".
You took things I said Way out of Context especially with that whole Uber translation stuff, but what the heck, I realized I was badgering you about something you said, specifically the whole "if your time is too precious then why are you wasting time on a video game", and I was taking it out of context too.

[UnderwearModel]

I usually watch a group for a few minutes if I am on my multi class, if they have not filled yet, I then ask to join.

I ask to join, no response.

group has several openings.

I send a tell, no response.

group has several openings.

I go on my merry way.

[branmakmuffin]

If that's the way you remember.
The only time I said "what are you talking about" was when you came out of left field with the whole Elitist Reserved LFM thing.
Not to mention the following:


What does using a "reserved" LFM have to do with replying to 11 tells?

That was your reply to my reply to something you wrote:


It is far easier to put up the LFM with "reserved" in the notes and wait for the people you're going to group with to hit the "join" button then to deal with Tells for 12 people.

You acted as if I was the one who brought up the "11/12 tells" thing, whereas it was you.

[Fenrisulven6]

If someone's (not necessarily yours) time is so valuable that they can't be bothered to be polite

I asked hypothetical questions here on this very thread. By your own standard, anyone who chose not to respond is guilty of being rude.

And I'm still waiting on you to PM everyone here thanking them for their participation in the thread. After all, "if your time is so valuable that you can't be bothered to be polite"...

:p

[arikka_hador]

And I'm still waiting on you to PM everyone here thanking them for their participation in the thread. After all, "if your time is so valuable that you can't be bothered to be polite"...

:p

He sent me one! :p

[ShaeNightbird]

He sent me one! :p

Really?

[arikka_hador]

Really?

Naw, I'm just yanking his/her chain. :p

[ShaeNightbird]

Naw, I'm just yanking his/her chain. :p

You silly ! :p
They put something eeeeeeevil in that cupcake, didn't they!

[arikka_hador]

You silly ! :p
They put something eeeeeeevil in that cupcake, didn't they!

Muahahahaha! I'm just hyper right now, that's all. :D

[ShaeNightbird]

Muahahahaha! I'm just hyper right now, that's all. :D

They don't let the recipe out, you know, but I saw what they put in there. You just think you're hyper. Soon, You'll have an overwhelming compulsion to start shrieking, "Yark! Yark!" and the secret ingredient will be revealed!

[arikka_hador]

They don't let the recipe out, you know, but I saw what they put in there. you just think you're hyper. Soon, you'll have an overwhelming compulsion to start shrieking, "Yark! Yark!" and the secret ingredient will be revealed!

...What?! :eek:

*twitch*

D-D-D...DIZAFRABADOOOOOOOOOOO!

...Oh geez, what's happening to me?! XD

[ShaeNightbird]

...What?! :eek:

*twitch*

D-D-D...DIZAFRABADOOOOOOOOOOO!

...Oh geez, what's happening to me?! XD

*Looks to see if her toes are beginning to look vaguely reptilian, listens for an impending "Yark!"...* Don't worry, the effects are allegedly temporary. If they only used one dirty kobold in the cookie dough mix, you should be fine in an hour or two. If somebody spiked it with a teensey, weensey bit more however.....well...I hate to tell you, tonight's a full moon....

[arikka_hador]

*Looks to see if her toes are beginning to look vaguely reptilian, listens for an impending "Yark!"...* Don't worry, the effects are allegedly temporary. If they only used one dirty kobold in the cookie dough mix, you should be fine in an hour or two. If somebody spiked it with a teensey, weensey bit more however.....well...I hate to tell you, tonight's a full moon....


Lol!

Well, as my father often said on camping trips: Best to just ride this thing out. :p

[ShaeNightbird]

Lol!

Well, as my father often said on camping trips: Best to just ride this thing out. :p

I know a lycanthrope who says the same thing. :eek:

[branmakmuffin]

I asked hypothetical questions here on this very thread. By your own standard, anyone who chose not to respond is guilty of being rude.

And I'm still waiting on you to PM everyone here thanking them for their participation in the thread. After all, "if your time is so valuable that you can't be bothered to be polite"...

:p
Right, and everyone who reads a newspaper article needs to personally thank the author, or they're being rude.

I know you're trying to make a point with sarcasm, but there's a big difference between sending a tell to a specific person in a game which, as so many like to point out, is based on social interaction for accomplishing goals in the game, and posting a message in a public forum.

[Fenrisulven6]

Bran? ***?! I responded to your post and you can't even give me the courtesy of a response? And I've been waiting waiting waiting almsot 40 minutes now. How RUDE! I guess common courtesy has indeed been lost. Sigh.

[Fenrisulven6]

there's a big difference between sending a tell to a specific person in a game which, as so many like to point out, is based on social interaction for accomplishing goals in the game, and posting a message in a public forum.

Nope. There's not much difference.

But thanks for finally responding. Geez.

[branmakmuffin]

Nope. There's not much difference.

But thanks for finally responding. Geez.
More sarcasm, less irony.

If you really cared, you'd send a strippergram.

[ShaeNightbird]

More sarcasm, less irony.

If you really cared, you'd send a strippergram.

What about a Jack the Rippergram?

[branmakmuffin]

What about a Jack the Rippergram?
As long as he says he cares.

[ShaeNightbird]

As long as he says he cares.He cares enough to rend the very best.

[branmakmuffin]

He cares enough to rend the very best.
Pretty funny.

[ShaeNightbird]

Pretty funny.

:cool:

[SableShadow]

Nope. There's not much difference.

But thanks for finally responding. Geez.

Now, now...I'm sure Bran wasn't being rude. He was simply busy in another window, responding to posts elsewhere, or engaged in the hundred other possible things that could lead one to miss responding to a post. These things happen.

[branmakmuffin]

Now, now...I'm sure Bran wasn't being rude. He was simply busy in another window, responding to posts elsewhere, or engaged in the hundred other possible things that could lead one to miss responding to a post. These things happen.
I'm negotiating peace in the Middle East and curing cancer.

[SableShadow]

I'm negotiating peace in the Middle East and curing cancer.

:eek:

Then what are you doing wasting time posting on a bloody GAME board! Get crackin'!

[ShaeNightbird]

I'm negotiating peace in the Middle East and curing cancer.

Please, sir, remove that filthy burnoose..

[branmakmuffin]

Please, sir, remove that filthy burnoose..
The filthier the burnoose, the better the negotiator.

[ShaeNightbird]

:eek:

[ShaeNightbird]

The filthier the burnoose, the better the negotiator.
No one can argue with a filthy burnoose.

[branmakmuffin]

No one can argue with a filthy burnoose.
And never play on an empty stomach.

[ShaeNightbird]

And never play on an empty stomach.But empty stomachs resonate better!

[branmakmuffin]

But empty stomachs resonate better!
But they squish underfoot.

[ShaeNightbird]

But they squish underfoot.Only if you use them as trampoline landing pads. They can also be used as impromptu floatation devices. Or even promptu floatation devices, if you're really in a hurry.

[branmakmuffin]

Only if you use them as trampoline landing pads. They can also be used as impromptu floatation devices. Or even promptu floatation devices, if you're really in a hurry.
Promptu barata niktu.

[ShaeNightbird]

Promptu barata niktu....*cough, cough, mumble....*

[branmakmuffin]

*cough, cough, mumble....*
Groovy! We need a way to segue from Army of Darkness to Monty Python. It always has to wind up back at Monty Python.

[bandyman1]

Edit: And there's absolutely no excuse for "reserved" LFMs. That's not just rude, that's elitist. If a space is reserved and everyone knows who it's reserved for, that can all be handled via tells.

Laughable.

It can be handled with tells, but tells are not as efficient or quick.

Powergamers Bran. It's all about speed.

And, quite frankly, I AM looking for more players. Just very specific ones ( ie Not you Bran ) ;).

[bandyman1]

Its a bit annoying in the sense that people who may want that quest/raid are excluded because you essentially formed a group but are using the LFM panel as an easy button. It is exclusive. Right or wrong it is still excluisve.

And if your feelings are hurt by such, than you are hypersensitive. Right or wrong, you are still hypersensitive.

Toughen up Lucy.

It is not my, nor any other players, responsibility to provide you with an LFM for the content you want to run. You are feeling a very false sense of entitlement.

[branmakmuffin]

And, quite frankly, I AM looking for more players. Just very specific ones ( ie Not you Bran ) ;).
And here I never expected to hear a kind word from you ever.

[bandyman1]

And here I never expected to hear a kind word from you ever.

Ya? Well, I'm full of surprises.

An ex-jock who plays DnD. Who'd have thunk it????

[branmakmuffin]

Ya? Well, I'm full of surprises.

An ex-jock who plays DnD. Who'd have thunk it????
Everyone's an ex-jock on the internet.

[RavenStormclaw]

This thread as been officialy derailed :cool:

On a lighter note..... Peace has been declared in the Middle East.

Lets give a big THANKS to Bran :)

[Fenrisulven6]

Actually, that might work. When can you leave Bran?

[RavenStormclaw]

And if your feelings are hurt by such, than you are hypersensitive. Right or wrong, you are still hypersensitive.

Toughen up Lucy.

It is not my, nor any other players, responsibility to provide you with an LFM for the content you want to run. You are feeling a very false sense of entitlement.

Wow what a complete lack of understanding. How do you take me being annoyed to my feelings being hurt? Dude do you know what it means to be annoyed? That has nothing to do with my feelings.... just in case that isn't clear. I can be annoyed when the telemarketers call during diner.... I can be annoyed when my kid gets a detention for talking in class for the umteenth time..... I can be annoyed when some idiot cuts me off in traffiic. In none of those cases (same here by the way) are my feelings hurt.

[branmakmuffin]

Actually, that might work. When can you leave Bran?
Either you forgot a comma, or you know something I don't.


Wow what a complete lack of understanding. How do you take me being annoyed to my feelings being hurt? Dude do you know what it means to be annoyed? That has nothing to do with my feelings.... just in case that isn't clear. I can be annoyed when the telemarketers call during diner.... I can be annoyed when my kid gets a detention for talking in class for the umteenth time..... I can be annoyed when some idiot cuts me off in traffiic. In none of those cases (same here by the way) are my feelings hurt.
You know what it is? You can be assured that people who assume others take silly things like internet postings personally are themselves guilty of taking such things personally. Ergo, because someone in this thread has hurt his feelings, he lashes out and asserts that others must have had their feelings hurt, too.

[toughguyjoe]

Did i hear some nonsense about "Reserved" LFMS being like, elitist or bad or something? Because thats a load of rubbish. Would players like it better if i simply put up an LFM and declined them without a word?

Anyone speaking rubbish about "reserved" LFMS is just angry because once they saw a LFM they wanted to join but it was "reserved". They were annoyed. Or perhaps their feelings were hurt. I don't know. This is DDO not Doctor Phil.

To touch on the main subject, yes Answering tells is important. Sometimes you put an LFM during peak hours and get too many tells, and it gets hard to reply to all of them, but you should do the best you can.

However, no one ever said that anyone in this game had to do anything up to and including sending a person a tell or letting them into a group.

Someone probably already said this a thousand times but, When i need a shroud or other raid on my caster, I put an LFM of my own. Problem solved.

[bandyman1]

Everyone's an ex-jock on the internet.

Yep.

And everyone happens to have two wonderful, and beautiful young daughters. Happens to live with a girlfriend, that could very easily earn a living as a supermodel. Has a wonderful child living in the home that anyone would be proud to call " son ". And has a very successful career as an RT, that they absolutely love.

And is far more skilled at the game than you are.



Of course; In my case, all of the above is true....





PS; How IS life in Mommy's basement, along with the other dude ( that peeps like me beat the **** out of daily in highschool.....just like we did with you )???? Did Mommy force you two into bunkbeds???? Or did she finally accept the hard truth, and just go out for the Queen-sized mattress when he moved in???

[bandyman1]

Wow what a complete lack of understanding. How do you take me being annoyed to my feelings being hurt? Dude do you know what it means to be annoyed? That has nothing to do with my feelings.... just in case that isn't clear. I can be annoyed when the telemarketers call during diner.... I can be annoyed when my kid gets a detention for talking in class for the umteenth time..... I can be annoyed when some idiot cuts me off in traffiic. In none of those cases (same here by the way) are my feelings hurt.

Lack of understanding????

Just be glad that my guildies and I were drunk tonight, and decided to take a few randoms through the Shroud.

You got a completion. On your caster.

Something you've been complaining about having a problem with for how many pages now????

Wanna know why you were accepted there???

Talk about looking a gift horse in the mouth :rolleyes:.

[bandyman1]

:rolleyes:

You know what it is? You can be assured that people who assume others take silly things like internet postings personally are themselves guilty of taking such things personally. Ergo, because someone in this thread has hurt his feelings, he lashes out and asserts that others must have had their feelings hurt, too.

Oh Bran...because you've so hurt my feelings :rolleyes:.


Like I've said countless times before, and will continue to say countless times again;

Get OVER the fact that peeps like you ( and you ) were used as a punching bag by me ( and others ) in high school.

It happens dude. It will continue to happen.

There will always be kids ( like I was ), who pick-on, and bully lil pricks like yourself.

Of course; Now-a-days, you have idiotic parents who are afraid to discipline their children, and think that " it is wrong to spank a child " ( and let me say right here; There is a HUGE difference between taking your boy out to the woodshed, and beating a child. ), causing an entire generation that is so afraid of a good-ole-fashioned game of knuckledrill, that they will show up to school with guns and/or pipe bombs to " teach the bullies a lesson " :rolleyes:.

And, of course, it is " the media ", " the music ", and/or " the violence that is shown on television and video games " that is to blame for the child's behavior. Never is it; The parents that haven't done a **** thing that works to control their children to begin with. Always; Some[one/thing] else is to blame. Because showing your child that standing up for themselves with their fists ( where sometimes you win, and sometimes you get your ass handed to you [ but at least earn the respect of getting in there ] , and both parties live either way ) takes a backseat to " my child is special. He doesn't need to earn his own respect in the world. People should just recognize that he is my child, and therefore a special person ", ect, ect.

*** ever peeps :rolleyes:. Get over yourselves and off the PC dope.

Raise your children to be respectful and respectable human beings, and people will respect them. Raise them to be assbags, and people will treat them like Bran.



The best excuse I've heard, comes from my stepmother ( in regards to my 17 year old step brother ). " I don't want my son to hate me ".

My reply ; " Did your Dad give you spankings??? "
Her answer ; " Yes "
My reply ; " Did you hate him??? Or did you love him??? "
Her answer ; " I loved him until the day he died. And I will still love that man, until the day I die ".
My reply ; " Yet, you've never spanked your child???? "
Her reply : " No. Never "
My reply ; " Hello :rolleyes:, Do I really need to say anymore here??? "

[ShaeNightbird]

Happens to live with a girlfriend, that could very easily earn a living as a supermodel.




Then why is she with you?

[Sirea]

And if your feelings are hurt by such, than you are hypersensitive. Right or wrong, you are still hypersensitive.

Toughen up Lucy.

It is not my, nor any other players, responsibility to provide you with an LFM for the content you want to run. You are feeling a very false sense of entitlement.


Haha, nice. /signed

But sheesh, this thread isn't dead yet? I thought we'd all proven the point quite nicely that DDO is nothing but elitist a-holes that don't care about the "rights of the common man" or some such nonsense :rolleyes:

But that's OK, RavenStormclaw already thinks I kick puppies, steal little kid's lollipops, and knock over little old ladies in my spare time :rolleyes:

^^To those that are over-sensitive and lack senses of humor, that was meant as a J-O-K-E.

[RavenStormclaw]

Lack of understanding????

Just be glad that my guildies and I were drunk tonight, and decided to take a few randoms through the Shroud.

You got a completion. On your caster.

Something you've been complaining about having a problem with for how many pages now????

Wanna know why you were accepted there???

Talk about looking a gift horse in the mouth :rolleyes:.

Bandy I wasn't looking a gift horse in the mouth. For the completion I thank you. It was his first and I am happy (although I would love to know how you knew it was me since I didn't think I ever said his name)

However perhaps I dind't make myself clear. What I meant was you didn't understand what I meant when I said I was annoyed. It was in the context of reserved LFM's not in the context of any other part of this discussion. Being annoyed in my minds eye does not equate to having my feelings hurst so I just wasn't sure where you were coming from on that one. If you care to explain how you took my being annoyed to my having my feelings hurst I would be happy to discuss where we misunderstood each other.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Edit: And there's absolutely no excuse for "reserved" LFMs. That's not just rude, that's elitist. If a space is reserved and everyone knows who it's reserved for, that can all be handled via tells.

You must not run in many raids, you don't necessarily know who is comming back. Very common to see at the end of a good raid "ok, running Hound next, I'll put up a new LFM in a sec so join with whoever you want". PITA to have to deal with a stack of tells, the LFM does the job so much easier. then after everyone is in, any empty spots can be openned up.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Hey everyone looses their temper and that was in direct response to some of her more blatant insults. You can't isolate that statement without the context in which it is said. I know you know that Lorien. I find it amusing you would isolate a statement said in the context of a specific argument and try to generalize it. It fails the generalization test. Therefore the argument fails.

Of cousre you have not been nice either so is this a two way street or what?

What made it funny was that your rudeness came in a post where you complained about rudeness... It was the irony that was tasty.

[RavenStormclaw]

What made it funny was that your rudeness came in a post where you complained about rudeness... It was the irony that was tasty.

Ahh but you see she took off the gloves first. I will not be rude first... but hey insult me and I can and will fight dirty. That is the difference that eludes you. Its not ironic when its a different situation. This is a different situation.

[toughguyjoe]

Then why is she with you?


LMFAO. Bandy said ALL of that stuff and Brans little MINION could only find that one little scentence to trash on?

Let me enlighten you Shae.

Bandy girlfriend is with him for the same reason you are with bran.

They have deep feelings for eachother and want to be together forever!

Yay!

[ShaeNightbird]

LMFAO. Bandy said ALL of that stuff and Brans little MINION could only find that one little scentence to trash on?

Let me enlighten you Shae.

Bandy girlfriend is with him for the same reason you are with bran.

They have deep feelings for eachother and want to be together forever!

Yay!
Well, I found several sentences to trash on, but was waiting for the appropriate time to strike.

[toughguyjoe]

Well, I found several sentences to trash on, but was waiting for the appropriate time to strike.

Oh yes. i'm sure your strikes will be swift like the viper

lmao.

[ShaeNightbird]

Oh yes. i'm sure your strikes will be swift like the viper

lmao.Aw, come on, Tuffie, you never even let me get the chance to ask him if he's taken the 1974 Chevy Monza down off the blocks in front of the double wide now that he's got such a great career as a Rectal Thermometer. He's certainly in his element there, although it's a bit of a dead end career. Do you two know each other from work?

[bandyman1]

Well, I found several sentences to trash on, but was waiting for the appropriate time to strike.

Naw Cleave.

I appreciate the support bro, but like I've said before, I actually like Shae's banter.

Bran's wit is of the type commonly tossed around by children in elementary school; Most of us outgrew it when we left those years behind, but for some reason, Bran's still there.

Shae on the other hand, is normally very witty in an adult sort of way. The Rectal Thermometer was a good one Shae, I loled :D. That said though;


Aw, come on, Tuffie, you never even let me get the chance to ask him if he's taken the 1974 Chevy Monza down off the blocks in front of the double wide

Common hun. Really :confused:???? I'm from TN. The redneck cracks were used up a long time ago. Surely you can do better than this :(.