Is an RPG with no XP still an RPG?

[geoffhanna]

This bugs me. How will it even work?

[Omega2K]

RPG = Role Playing Game

So, yes, you can Role Play all day without Experience Point gain.

[branmakmuffin]

This bugs me. How will it even work?
You've never heard of Call of Cthulhu, I guess.

[geoffhanna]

RPG = Role Playing Game

So, yes, you can Role Play all day without Experience Point gain.

RPG means a GAME is involved. If I just want role play I'll visit a therapist.


You've never heard of Call of Cthulhu, I guess.

I do not consider fleeing from everything, all the time, and still probably going insane "fun".

:D:D:D:D:D

Please stop with the one-liners guys, I'm being serious here.

Isn't the accumulation of XP and the concept of "leveling" pretty core to this?

[Thrudh]

Isn't the accumulation of XP and the concept of "leveling" pretty core to this?

Well, Do you quit playing each character as soon as he/she is capped? If no, then you've answered your own question. Obviously, there's more to this game than leveling... This holds true for ALL MMOs

[kingfisher]

RPG means a GAME is involved. If I just want role play I'll visit a therapist.




or a hooker

[Kylstrem]

Well, Do you quit playing each character as soon as he/she is capped? If no, then you've answered your own question. Obviously, there's more to this game than leveling... This holds true for ALL MMOs

You keep playing your capped toons because there is still somewhat of a carrot in the form crafting raid loot to make yourself more uber so that when the next mod with new levels comes out, you'll be able to kill stuff easier so you can you level up.

If Turbine tells us "That's it! No more levels... no more benefit to gaining XP", then I think the game will be over.

[Jondallar]

You keep playing your capped toons because there is still somewhat of a carrot in the form crafting raid loot to make yourself more uber so that when the next mod with new levels comes out, you'll be able to kill stuff easier so you can you level up.

If Turbine tells us "That's it! No more levels... no more benefit to gaining XP", then I think the game will be over.

As long as there are new adventures/monsters, gear, feats,spells and enhancements added to the game it will be worth playing. I think the possiblity of more and different enhancements is the easy way to keep going after level 20, even if they only add more eenhncement slots or points allowed to be spent.

[branmakmuffin]

Please stop with the one-liners guys, I'm being serious here.

Isn't the accumulation of XP and the concept of "leveling" pretty core to this?
This comment tells you are not being serious.

But if DDO, which is a level-based RPG, stops leveling, then that would be pretty odd.

[pscomputers]

If Turbine tells us "That's it! No more levels... no more benefit to gaining XP", then I think the game will be over.

Did Turbine say that?

I think a few of you are jumping to conclusions.

[Wu_Jen]

A skill based RPG where everytime you use skills and are successful that skill increases. Once X number of skills reach a certain point threshold you get more HP saves whatever.

You never gain actual XP you do gain chances to use skills to advance your character.

Possible, yes, fun...don't know haven't tried it yet.

[TreknaQudane]

Did Turbine say that?

I think a few of you are jumping to conclusions.

Welcome to a MMO forum.

[GovtMule]

Welcome to a MMO forum.

/bow

[Belwaar]

or a hooker

Beat me to it! :D:D:D:D:D

[branmakmuffin]

A skill based RPG where everytime you use skills and are successful that skill increases. Once X number of skills reach a certain point threshold you get more HP saves whatever.

You never gain actual XP you do gain chances to use skills to advance your character.

Possible, yes, fun...don't know haven't tried it yet.
Best PnP RPG system is the Chaosium Basic Role Playing system used by Call of Cthulhu and the pre-Mongoose versions of RuneQuest.

[Wu_Jen]

Best PnP RPG system is the Chaosium Basic Role Playing system used by Call of Cthulhu and the pre-Mongoose versions of RuneQuest.

I did play Call of Cthulhu back in 88' or 89', just none of my characters survived long enough to advance. They either got killed, mostly with dynamite or locked in a sanitarium. ;)

[branmakmuffin]

I did play Call of Cthulhu back in 88' or 89', just none of my characters survived long enough to advance. They either got killed, mostly with dynamite or locked in a sanitarium. ;)
That's a function of the milieu (and the GM), not the mechanics.

[Bindox]

Did Turbine say that?

I think a few of you are jumping to conclusions.

Well, this is all the exercise some people get. For some its jumping to conclusions, for some it's beating around the bush. Can we fault them for getting some sort of exercise?

[Kylstrem]

Did Turbine say that?

I think a few of you are jumping to conclusions.




If Turbine tells us "That's it! No more levels... no more benefit to gaining XP", then I think the game will be over.

I wonder what part of the word "If" was confusing.

[QuantumFX]

I did play Call of Cthulhu back in 88' or 89', just none of my characters survived long enough to advance. They either got killed, mostly with dynamite or locked in a sanitarium. ;)

Knights of the Dinner Table covered how to survive that game!

Video tutorial (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_jbfIRh8kP8)

[kinar]

This bugs me. How will it even work?


Please stop with the one-liners guys, I'm being serious here.


So you start with a one liner but expect others to do more work than you?


As for your questions.

As others have eluded to, just because your character stops gaining XP, doesn't mean they stop leveling. If it did, then all characters of the same class would be of equal value as soon as we hit our last rank of 16 (last possible method to enhance your character simply from character advancement mechanics). I don't know about the rest of you guys but that is just the beginning for my characters and that is where the real fun begins. The rest of the leveling for my characters is where they become unique. What gear I equip them with... How my playsytle improves as I learn to play... How my playstyle evolves as I interact with other people and think "thats cool, I think can do that too"...

[branmakmuffin]

I wonder what part of the word "If" was confusing.
Perhaps the part before the "I" and the part after the "f."

[pscomputers]

I wonder what part of the word "If" was confusing.

If only your father had worn a condom.

[Kalanth]

DDO requires very little to no RP, so really this is just a Game. An MMOG to be more specific. There is life to the game after cap, which is why so many groups run things like Shroud, VoD, and Hound.

[Borror0]

Isn't the accumulation of XP and the concept of "leveling" pretty core to this?
Honestly, your question is confusing as there is no context.

It is really hard to answer because you don't define RPG nor leveling. If by leveling, you mean "levels" then, no, it is possible to make a solid RPG without levels. Look at Shadowrun for non-level/XP character improvement (it is point-based and not as linear) or any Zelda game for item-based improvement.

If by RPG, you mean "game with character improvement", then no, it is impossible to have a RPG without you character improvement because it is stuck within the definition of the genre. If by RPG you mean "roleplaying game", then yes, it is entirely possible.
You can roleplay and play without needing to improve your character. Look no further than Mario and Pacman for games without any character improvement.

[Borror0]

If Turbine tells us "That's it! No more levels... no more benefit to gaining XP", then I think the game will be over.
Illogical. Did you stop playing Zelda, Mario or Excitebike because you didn't gain XP?

Heck, your character improves in Zelda. If you need character improvement to play a game, it is doable without adding additional levels. This is so true that two of the main requests on the LOTRO forums last week were less frequent paid expansions and cap increase.

[Arkat]

Best PnP RPG system is the Chaosium Basic Role Playing system used by the pre-Mongoose and pre-Avalon Hill versions of RuneQuest.

Fixed it for ya.

RQII FTW!

[Lymnus]

or a hooker
+1.

You win, sir.

[Impaqt]

I'm confused... What happened to Geoffs XP? Why arent you getting it?

[Borror0]

I'm confused... What happened to Geoffs XP? Why arent you getting it?
I think that his point is that there should never be a final cap to DDO.

[SableShadow]

When I used to MUX/MUSH, I played purely for the RP ... and advancing the continuity.

After capping my skills in UO, I played for the l00ts (lots of pretty armor crafting/housing ideas in there...), and for exploring.

When I capped 50 in CoH, I kept playing for Hammis, badges, costumes, and later ingredients.

I stopped playing WoW at level 67...maybe I'll go back to it sometime, but I just wasn't that enchanted by the game play. Leveling held my interest less and less as time went on, because once I was able to dip all the way into one talent tree, there wasn't a whole lot of difference between one level and another. I stayed longer than I would have because I wanted to level my fishing and cooking skills; tedious at times, but it amused me when I was bored.

[Uska]

RPG means a GAME is involved. If I just want role play I'll visit a therapist.



I do not consider fleeing from everything, all the time, and still probably going insane "fun".

:D:D:D:D:D

Please stop with the one-liners guys, I'm being serious here.

Isn't the accumulation of XP and the concept of "leveling" pretty core to this?


No gaining xp and leveling arent core to rpg the core is role playing and gaming you can do either one or both without leveling, in one our games in the recent past our gm just handed out xp rewards as he wanted so he could control our advancement totaly and it was a great game until RL interfered and we couldnt continue it but it took us 6 months to reach level 5(this is 2nd edtion ad&d) playing 2-3 times a month and it was one of our favorite games ever

[Borror0]

in one our games in the recent past our gm just handed out xp rewards as he wanted so he could control our advancement totaly
In my circle, nearly all games are played that way. Much less of an headache that way.

"You're level 5 now. Open your books and level up."

[Mike_Fun_Spot]

Shoot this is an RPG? I need to go play madden now!

[parvo]

This bugs me. How will it even work?

Permadeath.

[Kylstrem]

Illogical. Did you stop playing Zelda, Mario or Excitebike because you didn't gain XP?

Heck, your character improves in Zelda. If you need character improvement to play a game, it is doable without adding additional levels. This is so true that two of the main requests on the LOTRO forums last week were less frequent paid expansions and cap increase.

I'm 40... My CRPG started with the Ultima series. I have never played a Zelda game... never looked fun... when Zelda came out in 1986, I was in the midst of the Ultima Series and Might & Magic. When I saw my brother playing Zelda, nothing in it looked fun. Why the heck would I play Zelda after already playing Ultima IV?

I've never played Excitebike, but are Mario and Excitebike considered CRPGs????

[Kylstrem]

When I used to MUX/MUSH, I played purely for the RP ... and advancing the continuity.

After capping my skills in UO, I played for the l00ts (lots of pretty armor crafting/housing ideas in there...), and for exploring.

When I capped 50 in CoH, I kept playing for Hammis, badges, costumes, and later ingredients.

I stopped playing WoW at level 67...maybe I'll go back to it sometime, but I just wasn't that enchanted by the game play. Leveling held my interest less and less as time went on, because once I was able to dip all the way into one talent tree, there wasn't a whole lot of difference between one level and another. I stayed longer than I would have because I wanted to level my fishing and cooking skills; tedious at times, but it amused me when I was bored.

No offense, but there aren't many males who get excitement from getting pretty things. :)

[geoffhanna]

An interesting variety of responses. Plus some other uselessness, but that always happens :).




I'm confused... What happened to Geoffs XP? Why arent you getting it?
I think that his point is that there should never be a final cap to DDO.
Borr nailed the topic, but I am not trying to make a point. I don't have a point. I have a lot of wondering.

Someone suggested this question is jumping to a conclusion regarding the end of levelling: it is not. Kate Paiz said it. Leveling is done (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=180439).

All of the other games that people are mentioning that don't use XP either (1) do have the concept of leveling in some fashion or another or (2) are not RPGs. For instance, Chaosium RuneQuest IS the greatest RPG ruleset ever (Bran wins :) ), but it definitely had "leveling" even tho it was not called "leveling" and did not involve XP. So do Zelda and some of the Mario game. IIRC, Excitebike is not an RPG - not because it is a racing game: Need for Speed is a racing game too and is also an RPG - and for that matter, has leveling.

Borr asked if I stopped playing Mario and Zelda when I no longer earned levels: yes! That means I beat the game. Few games are replayable from the beginning, and very few are replayable multiple times.

As for PnP, in original D&D there were no levels above 10 (less if you were elf or dwarf or whatever). Once you hit top level, you retired the character and rerolled. But - and this is a BIG BUT - your new character would not be repeating the same quests as the original; retirement was not bad.

Maybe that is an answer. Give us a way to retire our characters with honors, a public monument or something so retiring becomes a valid goal. There would need to be a way to pry loose a bound item or two and pass it on as an heirloom. And they would need a lot more new content and a lot more tweaking of the current low/midlevel stuff if we are supposed to re-level our characters regularly.

I think it is more likely that they will just give us more equipment grinds like the Shroud and DT armor, trusting that we will look at the construction of time-consuming equipment as a form of gradual leveling.

I don't. I'm not trying to call dooooommmm here, I am not threatening to leave or any of that. I'm just providing my opinion and trying to find what others think. My opinion is that - like Zelda - hitting a final level cap means you have beat the game.

[Kylstrem]

Wait! What Mario games are we talking about?

The Super Mario Bros series? How does anyone define that as an RPG?

If that's an RPG, then so is the original Donkey Kong.

[geoffhanna]

Why is it that the posts I put the most thought into always end up at the bottom of a page where no one will see them?

LOL if you are interested in a rather longish post #39, read this (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2175108&postcount=39).


Wait! What Mario games are we talking about?

The Super Mario Bros series? How does anyone define that as an RPG?

If that's an RPG, then so is the original Donkey Kong.

Most of the Mario games are not RPGs. Some do have traditional RPG aspects in that you gain more life and abilities as you accomplish goals. Yet another example of the hugely understated cultural impact of Gygax and Arneson's work, but that is another complex topic and this one is already tangly enough.

[Kalanth]

Wait! What Mario games are we talking about?

The Super Mario Bros series? How does anyone define that as an RPG?

If that's an RPG, then so is the original Donkey Kong.

Paper Mario (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paper_Mario) was a great RPG. One of the better ones I have played in all my gaming years.

[Borror0]

I've never played Excitebike, but are Mario and Excitebike considered CRPGs????
That never was the point I was making. A game does not need for you to gain level to be fun, was the point I was trying to make. You should have realized that if you read the post just above it (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=2174612#post2174612).

What it too hard for you?

I've never played Excitebike, but are Mario and Excitebike considered CRPGs????
Depends on how you define RPG. If by RPG means roleplaying game to you, then yes it is a game in which you can roleplay.

Well, at least to the same extent you can RP in Final Fantasy.

Borr asked if I stopped playing Mario and Zelda when I no longer earned levels: yes! That means I beat the game.
By that, do I have to conclude you refused to play most of Zelda and Mario games because most of them had no levels?

[Turial]

This bugs me. How will it even work?

In an RPG its more about character development then it is about XP. XP and leveling just happens to be the normal method RPG's chart the progress of developing a character.

Capped characters with no benafit from XP still see development as they gain wealth and more powerful gear or reputation with fellow players or factions within the game itself.

[Turial]

...

I don't. I'm not trying to call dooooommmm here, I am not threatening to leave or any of that. I'm just providing my opinion and trying to find what others think. My opinion is that - like Zelda - hitting a final level cap means you have beat the game.

If we have indeed hit the perma level cap with mod 9 and turbine doesn't provide new items or purely fluff type achievements then yes it would be possible to have beaten the game via conventional rules.

So long as new items and quests come out there is no real end to character development.

Speaking of fluff...the game needs a money sink --> guild housing and player housing would be one nice way to do it.

[SneakThief]

I did play Call of Cthulhu back in 88' or 89', just none of my characters survived long enough to advance. They either got killed, mostly with dynamite or locked in a sanitarium. ;)
Best game ever!!! Ah how I loved the insanity! To this day I still describe life in terms of "Sanity points".... <sigh> .... :D

[branmakmuffin]

Fixed it for ya.

RQII FTW!
Nothing wrong with the Avalon Hill version (it was all written by Chaosium).

For the longest time, Hasbro owned the rights to RuneQuest after they bought Avalon Hill.


In an RPG its more about character development then it is about XP. XP and leveling just happens to be the normal method RPG's chart the progress of developing a character.

Capped characters with no benafit from XP still see development as they gain wealth and more powerful gear or reputation with fellow players or factions within the game itself.
XP and leveling is how XP/level-based RPGs handle character development and advancement, not how RPGs in general handle it. Of course, since D&D is an XP/level-based RPG and DDO is based on D&D, it would be odd if DDO changed away from an XP/level system after level 20.

[geoffhanna]

Why "if"? There is no "if".

[Arkat]

Nothing wrong with the Avalon Hill version (it was all written by Chaosium).

Not quite. Greg Stafford sold the RuneQuest system to Avalon Hill but not the world Glorantha. When Avalon Hill bought the system, they hired guys like Sandy Peterson, Ken Rolston, etc. to tinker with it and change it to what it became - RQ III. I never liked RQ III but I interviewed with the Dott brothers (they owned AH which was outside of Baltimore at the time) to be the new "Runequest Czar" so I could try to improve the system. During my interview I pointed out to them that they made a mistake by not buying Glorantha as well. Needless to say, I didn't get the job! :)

Greg Stafford, in the meantime, kept Glorantha and started a new company called Issaries Inc. and worked on a game that was more like Pendragon but set in Glorantha called Heroquest.




For the longest time, Hasbro owned the rights to RuneQuest after they bought Avalon Hill.


Yah, I remember that. I just lost all track of what happened to the system. Who's got it now? Mongoose Publishing?

[branmakmuffin]

Not quite. Greg Stafford sold the RuneQuest system to Avalon Hill but not the world Glorantha.
Hence my use of the word "RuneQuest.":rolleyes:

And RuneQuest III did include Glotantha material, regardless of who owned the rights (Issaries, Inc., currently owns the rights to Glorantha, which I believe they license to Mongoose).

[Arkat]

Hence my use of the word "RuneQuest.":rolleyes:

And my point was Chaosium (Greg Stafford) had nothing to do with the RQIII system that Avalon Hill produced. I should know...I've spoken to him on several occasions.

[branmakmuffin]

Nope. There is not one mention of Glorantha in any of the AH RQIII stuff.
Dude, I have an AH RQ III deluxe box in my garage. It has a book in it called "Glorantha" it has (among other things) Dragonewts in it. Either you are being sarcastic or deliberately dense.

[Arkat]

Dude, I have an AH RQ III deluxe box in my garage. It has a book in it called "Glorantha" it has (among other things) Dragonewts in it. Either you are being sarcastic or deliberately dense.

Omigosh...you're absolutely right! Holy cow I'm forgetful. There was an orange box supplement called "Glorantha" as well. I forget what the number was, 11 or something.

I remember now...AH was not allowed to publish anything NEW regarding Glorantha!! It was really important to Greg that they not publish anything that would muck up the timeline leading up to the Hero Wars so all AH was allowed to do was reprint previously published Glorantha material.

I'm sorry dude, I haven't thought about this stuff in a looooong time. :)

[branmakmuffin]

Omigosh...you're absolutely right! Holy cow I'm forgetful. There was an orange box supplement called "Glorantha" as well. I forget what the number was, 11 or something.
They also re-did some of the Chaosium stuff. There's an AH Pavis book, too. In fact, there's a bunch of AH-published Glorantha material, most of it, I believe, re-packaging of previous Chaosium-published material (which is in keeping with what you say about "no new material").

Interestingly enough, I have perused some of the more recent Glorantha stuff published by Issaries and I find it kind of silly. I liked Glorantha to the extent it was done in the original Chaosium RQ materials (and then some of the AH-redos). But the new stuff is kind if over the top (but that's just me).

Sorry about the "deliberately dense" comment.

[Arkat]

But the new stuff is kind if over the top (but that's just me).

I was in my local games store earlier today and noticed all this new Runequest stuff. It takes place in Glorantha but during the Second Age though (Empire of Wyrm's Friends, Jrusteli Empire, God Learners, all that stuff). That stuff is being published by Mongoose Publishing. Is that what you're talking about or are you talking about some of the Issaries stuff like "The Book of Drastic Resolutions?" If so, that's been out for quite a while now.


Sorry about the "deliberately dense" comment.

No problem man. :)

[branmakmuffin]

I was in my local games store earlier today and noticed all this new Runequest stuff. It takes place in Glorantha but during the Second Age though (Empire of Wyrm's Friends, Jrusteli Empire, God Learners, all that stuff). That stuff is being published by Mongoose Publishing. Is that what you're talking about or are you talking about some of the Issaries stuff like "The Book of Drastic Resolutions?" If so, that's been out for quite a while now.
I believe that Issaries (http://www.issaries.com/), Greg Stafford's company, licenses Glorantha to Mongoose. I do not like the way Mongoose has changed the RQ mechanics. There are some things I like better about Chaosium's RQI/RQII, and some things I like better about Avalon Hill's RQIII. When I run RQ PnP games, I use what I like from each (I have a great deal of RQ material from both companies).

I stated this before, but in my opinion, pre-Mongoose RuneQuest is the best PnP RPG, with GURPS second (although for character generation, you can't beat the old Game Designers Workshop's original version of Traveller).

[Arkat]

you can't beat the old Game Designers Workshop's original version of Traveller).

Yeah, rolling Naval characters was loads of fun. Rolling up Scouts seemed to be exercises in frustration because you'd get so far only to have it die somehow before mustering out.