WF Stalwart Defender o_O

[Jay203]

just trying to compare between 18/2 pally/rogue and 18/2 Fighter/Monk
here's what i got thus far
18/2 Fighter/Monk
Lawful Good WF


Stats:
Strength 16 base + 5 lvl + 3 tome + 6 item + 2 enahancement = 32 (+11)
Dexterity 14 base + 2 tome + 6 item = 22 (+6)
Constitution 15 base + 3 tome + 6 item + 2 enhancement = 26 (+8)
Intelligence 13 base + 1 tome = 14 (+2)
Wisdom 6 base + 6 item + 2 tome = 14 (+2)
Charisma 12 base + 2 tome + 6 item = 20 (+5)

AC:


10 base
8 adamantine body
7 dt docent
6 dex bonus
9 tower shield
5 protection item
1 dodge feat
3 stalwart defender
5 ce
1 armor ritual
1 shield ritual
-----
56 beholder ac
3 barkskin potion
1 haste
-----
60
2 full bark
5 pally aura
4 superior stance
3 chattering ring
4 insight bonus on dt docent
-----
78 ac
4 bard song
2 recitation
---
82
6 tumbling
---
88 ac tumbling

Feats:


1 adamantine body/ monk: toughness
2 monk:Combat Expertise
3 Improved Damage Reduction/ Fighter: Shield Mastery
4 Fighter:Dodge
6 Improved Damage Reduction/ Fighter: Stunning Blow
8 Fighter: Sap
9 Improved Damage Reduction
10 Figher: Improved Shield Mastery
12 Improved Damage Reduction/ Fighter: Power Attack
14 Fighter: Improved Trip
15 Improved Damage Reduction
16 Fighter: Mobility
18 Improved Damage Reduction/ Fighter: Improved Crit: bludgeon
20 Fighter: Spring Attack


DR:


2 adamantine body
3 enhancement
6 improved damage reductions x6
----
11 dr/adamantine


Intimidate:


23 base
5 cha bonus
15 item
1 badager
6 stalwart defender
3 fighter intimidate
-----
53
4 gh
2 head of good fortune
----
59

HP:


180 figher 18
12 monk 2
20 Heroic durability
22 Toughness
50 enhancement bonus
10 dragonic vitality
160 con bonus
-----
454
40 while in stance
----
494

Saves:


10/5/5 fighter 16
3/3/3 monk 2
8/6/2 stats bonus
5/5/5 resistance item
2/2/2 head of good fortune
1/1/1 resistance ritual
-----
29/22/18
4/ 4/ 4 gh
---------
33/26/22


to hit:


19 base
11 str bonus
5 weapon
-5 ce
-2 tower shield
----
28 to hit
4 gh
2 tumbleweed
1 haste
----
35 to hit


thinking about taking some two-weapon fighting feats with +3 dex tome in the future and swap between modes
enhancement-wise it's VERY tight so don't have too much points to spare for the power attack line =(

suggestions??

EDIT: it seems i wasn't clear about the intent of this build, he's mainly sword and board intimitank

[Geonis]

no point taking either rogue or monk with the adamantine plating, cause you lose your evasion in medium or heavy armor (addy plating counts as heavy armor).

[Jay203]

no point taking either rogue or monk with the adamantine plating, cause you lose your evasion in medium or heavy armor (addy plating counts as heavy armor).

need the monk bonus feats for toughness as class feat :P
using all the general feats for damage reduction =)

[Shroonith]

I believe this build to be a good permutation of the OP's intended TWF Stalwart Defender, with a lot of the important defensive abilities (including evasion, DR, AC) a tank should have. I planned for high defense first, and fit in offense when I could.

Id does not have adamantine body, but does have evasion and UMD. The adamantine 11/DR does not stack with the defender 6/dr so i dropped that idea.

WF, TWF, Stalwart III, 18FTR/2ROG

Stats: (important end stats displayed)
15+4lvl+3ftr+4tome+4Defender+6item: 36
16+1lvl+1rog+4tome+6item:28
14
12
6
12

Feats: 7 normal, 10 FTR
GTWF(3)
WF,WS,GWF,GWS,IC: Slash or Pierce (5)
PA
CE
Mithril Body
Mithril Fluidity x1
Dodge
Toughness
-------------Important ones above [14], tentative below [3]---------------
SF:UMD
Bullheaded
Force of Personality (depending on stats)
-------------Also consider instead of GTWF-------------
Shield Mastery
Improved Shield Mastery
SF:Intimidate

The strength of mithril body is this:
5Base + 7DT-Docent + 5MDB + 3FAM + 1Fluidity : 21 [9 total MDB, 1 less than a maxed mithral tower shield 4base+3ftr+3stalwart]

vs a non-dwarf plate wearer

15DT-Plate + 1MDB +3 FAM + 2 Stalwart Defender (extra MDB) : 21 AC

You dont lose AC but gain Evasion by going mithril body.

Weapons of Choice: Radiance II Scimitars/Rapiers (x2) - Blind will help you remain unhittable, and allow you to Sneak Attack a monster for 1d6+3(+8 more with tharnes) extra damage per hit, straight to its face. Also look into offhand cursespewers for bosses.

Enhancements: (tentative)
FTR STR III : 12AP
ROG DEX I: 2AP
WF CON II: 6AP

Stalwart III: 8AP
FAM III: 12AP
FTSM II: 8AP
FTR Item Defense II: 3AP
Armor Boost III: 6AP

Scimitar/Rapier Specialization II: 3AP
WF Power Attack: 6AP
ROG Sneak Attack Training I: 1AP
Fighter Haste Boost II: 3AP

WF Brute Fighting I: 1AP
FTR Intimidate I: 1AP

WF Healer's Friend I: 2AP
Fighter Toughness II: 3AP
Racial Toughness II: 3AP

AC Breakdowns:
Common Party DPS (PA not CE) TWF AC:
10 Base
5 Body
7 DT
9 MDB
1 Alchemy
1 Dodge
5 Protection
2 Chaosgardes
4 Insight
3 Chattering ring
3 Barkskin pot
3 Stalwart Passive
4 Stalwart Defensive Stance
4 Shield Wand (you have umd so 10 minute duration)
1 Haste
-----
62 No paladin

Raid Tanking (Shield and CE) AC:
+2 real bark
+4 Bard
+6 Mithril Tower Shield
+5 Paladin (non DoS)
+2 Recitation
+5 Combat Expertise
+5 Shield Blocking
-1 Leviks III [Insight5 vs 2Chaosguard and 4Insight]
-----
90 AC

Skills: (the important ones in my mind)
UMD
Intimidate
Jump
Tumble [ESSENTIAL for defensive stance as it allows you to move between battles without turning it off]
Balance

Saves:
0/3/0 Rogue
11/6/6 Fighter
5/5/5 Resistance
1/1/1 Alchemy
3/3/3 Stalwart
8/9/6 Stats
0/0/1 Bullheaded
4/4/4 GH
2/2/2 HoGF
------
34/33/28 (Will could be better with some tweaking of the WF enhancements(+3) or a shroud item)


Notes:
You could squeeze out another 1 MDB at the cost of a feat, lots of build/lvl points, and 6AP (FTSM III), however I dont believe it to be worth it.
The enhancements are very tentative, and specced towards defense more than offense.
Other Notes to come.

[Jay203]

I believe this build to be a good permutation of the OP's intended TWF Stalwart Defender, with a lot of the important defensive abilities (including evasion, DR, AC) a tank should have. I planned for high defense first, and fit in offense when I could.

Id does not have adamantine body, but does have evasion, and unlike mnk splash, it can use a shield.


WF, TWF, Stalwart III, 18FTR/2ROG

Stats: (important end stats displayed)
15+4lvl+3ftr+4tome+4Defender+6item: 36
16+1lvl+1rog+4tome+6item:28
13
12
6
6
(+7 more build pts for STR/CON/INT/CHA as you like)(whatever u do, eat a +2int tome at start)

Feats: 7 normal, 10 FTR
GTWF(3)
WF,WS,GWF,GWS,IC: Slash or Pierce (5)
PA
CE
Mithril Body
Mithril Fluidity x1
Dodge
-------------Important ones above [13], tentative below [4]---------------
SF:UMD
Bullheaded
SF:Intimidate or Force of Personality (depending on stats)
Toughness (may or may not be needed since it sucks up Action Points)
-------------Also consider-------------
Shield Mastery
Improved Shield Mastery


The strength of mithril body is this:
5Base + 7DT-Docent + 5MDB + 3FAM + 1Fluidity : 21 [9 total MDB, 1 less than a maxed mithral tower shield 4base+3ftr+3stalwart]

vs a non-dwarf plate wearer

15DT-Plate + 1MDB +3 FAM + 2 Stalwart Defender (extra MDB) : 21 AC

You dont lose AC but gain Evasion by going mithril body.

Weapons of Choice: Radiance II Scimitars/Rapiers (x2) - Blind will help you remain unhittable, and allow you to Sneak Attack a monster for 1d6+3 extra damage per hit, straight to its face. Also look into offhand cursespewers for bosses.

Enhancements: (tentative)
FTR STR III : 12AP
ROG DEX I: 2AP
WF CON I: 2AP

Stalwart III: 8AP
FAM III: 12AP
FTSM II: 8AP
FTR Item Defense II: 3AP
Armor Boost IV: 10AP

Scimitar/Rapier Specialization II: 3AP
WF Power Attack: 6AP
ROG Sneak Attack Training I: 1AP
Fighter Haste Boost II: 3AP
Fighte Extra Action Boost: 2AP

WF Brute Fighting I: 1AP
FTR Intimidate I: 1AP

WF Healer's Friend I: 2AP
Fighter Toughness II: 3AP
Racial Toughness II: 3AP

-----
66 at the moment, lots of room

AC Breakdowns:

Common Party DPS (PA not CE) TWF AC:
10 Base
5 Body
7 DT
9 MDB
1 Alchemy
1 Dodge
5 Protection
2 Chaosgardes
4 Insight
3 Chattering ring
5 Barkskin
3 Stalwart Passive
4 Stalwart Defensive Stance
4 Shield Wand (you have umd so 10 minute duration)
1 Haste
-----
64 No paladin, with just a true Bark.

Raid Tanking (Shield and CE) AC:
+4 Bard
+6 Mithril Tower Shield
+5 Paladin (non DoS)
+2 Recitation
+5 Combat Expertise
+5 Shield Blocking
-1 Leviks III [Insight5 vs 2Chaosguard and 4Insight]
-----
90 AC

Skills: (the important ones in my mind)
UMD
Intimidate
Jump
Tumble [ESSENTIAL for defensive stance as it allows you to move between battles without turning it off]
Balance

Saves:
0/3/0 Rogue
11/6/6 Fighter
5/5/5 Resistance
1/1/1 Alchemy
3/3/3 Stalwart
7/9/3 Stats
0/0/1 Bullheaded
4/4/4 GH
2/2/2 HoGF
------
33/33/25 (Will could be better with some tweaking of the character's initial stats and/or force of personality(+3) and WF enhancements(+3) or a shroud item)


Notes:
You could squeeze out another 1 MDB at the cost of a feat, lots of build/lvl points, and 6AP (FTSM III), however I dont believe it to be worth it.
The enhancements are very tentative, and specced towards defense more than offense.
Other Notes to come.


EDIT: Reduced Starting stats to allow for more manipulation.

ok, so you have the ac of:


10 base
5 mithril body
9 dex bonus (assuming you take 3 lvls of armor mastery)
7 dt docent
1 armor ritual
----
32 base ac
4 shield wand
---
36
5 CE
----
41 while in Combat expertise


as for mine, it's


10 base
8 adamantine body
7 dt docent
1 armor ritual
6 dex bonus
9 +5 mith tower shield
1 shield ritual
-------
42 base ac
5 CE
-----
47 while in Combat expertise


i have higher ac unless you decided to take full ranks of armor master and tower shield mastery which takes up a lot more ap

also, while you have


Common Party DPS (PA not CE) TWF AC:
10 Base
5 Body
7 DT
9 MDB
1 Alchemy
1 Dodge
5 Protection
2 Chaosgardes
4 Insight
3 Chattering ring
5 Barkskin
3 Stalwart Passive
4 Stalwart Defensive Stance
4 Shield Wand (you have umd so 10 minute duration)
1 Haste
-----
64 No paladin, with just a true Bark.


i have


Common Party DPS (PA not CE) TWF AC:
10 Base
8 Body
7 DT
6 MDB
1 armor ritual
1 Dodge
5 Protection
2 Chaosgardes
4 Insight
3 Chattering ring
5 Barkskin
3 Stalwart Passive
4 Stalwart Defensive Stance
9 +5 mith tower shield
1 shield ritual
1 Haste
-----
70 No paladin, with just a true Bark.

true, you have evasion for better survival against spells, but if i already got a 18/2 paladin/rogue in the making for that so i'll pass on that =)

PS: Toughness is a required feat for Stalwart Defender =)
PS2: use the code and /code inside [] to make things easier to read instead of one LONG post =)

[Shroonith]

Put a shield on my build if u want to compare it like that. dont straw-man me, thats really lame.
we have the exact same AC when using a shield.


Common Party DPS (PA not CE) TWF AC:
10 Base
8 Body
7 DT
6 MDB
1 armor ritual
1 Dodge
5 Protection
2 Chaosgardes
4 Insight
3 Chattering ring
5 Barkskin
3 Stalwart Passive
4 Stalwart Defensive Stance
9 +5 mith tower shield
1 shield ritual
1 Haste
-----
70 No paladin, with just a true Bark.

i find it interesting you post yourself as TWF DPS with a shield's ac bonus too. very underhanded of you sir.


i have higher ac unless you decided to take full ranks of armor master and tower shield mastery which takes up a lot more ap is simply a lie. we both took full FAM. the towershield mastery costs me 6AP, since i'd only need the second rank of it to hit 9MDB. (4base on a MTS, +3stalwart +2FTSM.)

[Jay203]

Put a shield on my build if u want to compare it like that. dont straw-man me, thats really lame.
we have the exact same AC when using a shield.



i find it interesting you post yourself as TWF DPS with a shield's ac bonus too. very underhanded of you sir.

is simply a lie. we both took full FAM. the towershield mastery costs me 6AP, since i'd only need the second rank of it to hit 9MDB. (4base on a MTS, +3stalwart +2FTSM.)

actually, i think you misunderstood my build, mine is suppose to be sword and board focused and i was thinking about taking twf feats so i can swap into dps mode o_O

and i think i'm correct in assuming you're taking both the armor mastery as well as the tower shield mastery if you want the full +9 dex bonus on your mith body while holding mith tower shield
mith body has base max dex of 5, you put fluidity for a total of 6, which means you need to spend 2 + 4 + 6 = 12 points for all three lvls of armor mastery to put max dex up to a 9
as for tower shield, a mith tower has a max dex of 4, it's increased to 7 with 3 tiers of defender, which means you need to spend additional 2 + 4 = 6 points for 2 tiers of tower shield mastery

as for mine, since i'm using adamantine body, with base max dex of 1, increased to 3 by 3 tiers of defender, i need 3 tiers of armor mastery to get to 6 max dex, 12 points spent
however, i do not need to invest in tower shield mastery seeing how its max dex is 7 and i only need 6 =)



btw, here's my rendition of a evasion stalwart defender, i think i'd go with dual weighted 5%s =)
18/2 Fighter/Monk
Wf Lawful Good

Stats:


Strength 14 base + 2 tome + 2 enhancement + 6 item = 24 (+7)
Dexterity 17 base + 5 lvl + 6 item + 2 tome = 30 (+10)
Constitution 14 base + 2 enhancement + 6 item = 22 (+6)
Intelligence 13 base + 1 tome = 14 (+2)
Wisdom 6 base + 3 tome + 1 enhancement + 6 item = 16 (+3)
Charisma 10 base + 2 tome + 6 item = 18 (+4)


AC:


10 base
5 mithril body
7 dt docent
3 stalwart defender
5 protection item
1 dodge feat
10 dex bonus
1 armor ritual
9 +5 mith tower shield
1 shield ritual
---------
52 beholder ac
3 barkskin potion
1 haste potion
----
56 self buffed
4 Superior stance
5 CE
-----
65 in stance
3 chattering ring
4 dt insight bonus
----
72 minor grinding
4 bard song
2 full bark
2 recitation
5 pally aura
-----
85 raid buffed

- 10 while dual-wielding (no shield)
75 dual-wield mode


Feats:


Level 1 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Mithral Body
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Toughness

Level 2 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Dodge

Level 3 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Mithral Fluidity
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Two Weapon Fighting

Level 4 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Finesse

Level 5 (Fighter)

Level 6 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Combat Expertise
Feat: (Selected) Mithral Fluidity

Level 7 (Fighter)

Level 8 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Two Weapon Fighting

Level 9 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Mithral Fluidity

Level 10 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Power Attack

Level 11 (Fighter)

Level 12 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Selected) Mithral Fluidity

Level 13 (Fighter)

Level 14 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Bludgeoning Weapons

Level 15 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Mithral Fluidity

Level 16 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Stunning Blow

Level 18 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Mithril Fluidity/ Skill Focus: Intimidate
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Shield Mastery

Level 20 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Shield Mastery



Intimidate:


23 base
4 cha bonus
2 head of good fortune
15 item
1 Badger
3 fighter intimidate
6 Stalwart Defender
4 GH
------
58 + 3 more if taken skill focus


Saves:


Saves:
11/6/6 Fighter 18
3/3/3 Monk 2
5/5/5 Resistance item
1/1/1 Alchemy
6/10/3 Stats bonus
4/4/4 Greater hero
2/2/2 Head of Good Fortune
------
32/31/24

[Shroonith]

I'm begining to think you just dont have a good grasp of game mechanics at this point.

You cant be in stance while dual wielding 5% weighted since handwraps can not be dual wielded, and since everyone other 1hand mnk weapon is not blunt. You also keep putting your [shield bonus and mithral body] AND [stances] in your calculations for your AC. Theyre mutually exclusive. You are also adding in things like superior stance, which is not attainable as a level 2 monk.

For anyone else who is reading this thread. Dont make a build planned by this man, he has shown a lack of understanding of basic concepts and a tendency to strawman people who critique his builds.

As for you OP, dont use MNK when your build is heavily reliant on your shield. The strongest mnk splash bonus is that their WIS modifier is applied to their AC, but only when unarmored and not using a shield.

As for your AC... Quoting from my original build:

AC Breakdowns:
Common Party DPS (PA not CE) TWF AC:
10 Base
5 Body
7 DT
9 MDB
1 Alchemy
1 Dodge
5 Protection
2 Chaosgardes
4 Insight
3 Chattering ring
3 Barkskin pot
3 Stalwart Passive
4 Stalwart Defensive Stance
4 Shield Wand (you have umd so 10 minute duration)
1 Haste
-----
62 No paladin

Raid Tanking (Shield and CE) AC:
+2 real bark
+4 Bard
+6 Mithril Tower Shield
+5 Paladin (non DoS)
+2 Recitation
+5 Combat Expertise
+5 Shield Blocking
-1 Leviks III [Insight5 vs 2Chaosguard and 4Insight]
-----
90 AC


This would put the build at 76AC while Dual wielding in raid while still having UMD. Yours would be lower than posted (since if correctly added your stances would not be applied) at a 71 and would not have UMD.

You have also given yourself 6 feats of mithril fluidity on top of mithril body for some reason. This nets you an 11MDB, (14with FAM), needing a dex of 32(38 with FAM) which you are unable to attain. Unnecessary, especially since the hard cap on tower shields is a 10MDB. You are just wasting feats. Since you have so many extra feats, the rationale of monk over rogue disappears again. Take rogue, it gets you more dex, more dps, and UMD.

Even if your original build was only S/B, youd still be better off going with the build I laid out. Evasion at no penalty to AC on a tank is a dream come true.

[Jay203]

I'm begining to think you just dont have a good grasp of game mechanics at this point.

You cant be in stance while dual wielding 5% weighted since handwraps can not be dual wielded, and since everyone other 1hand mnk weapon is not blunt. You also keep putting your [shield bonus and mithral body] AND [stances] in your calculations for your AC. Theyre mutually exclusive. You are also adding in things like superior stance, which is not attainable as a level 2 monk.

For anyone else who is reading this thread. Dont make a build planned by this man, he has shown a lack of understanding of basic concepts and a tendency to strawman people who critique his builds.

As for you OP, dont use MNK when your build is heavily reliant on your shield. The strongest mnk splash bonus is that their WIS modifier is applied to their AC, but only when unarmored and not using a shield.

As for your AC... Quoting from my original build:


This would put the build at 76AC while Dual wielding in raid while still having UMD. Yours would be lower than posted (since if correctly added your stances would not be applied) at a 71 and would not have UMD.

You have also given yourself 6 feats of mithril fluidity on top of mithril body for some reason. This nets you an 11MDB, (14with FAM), needing a dex of 32(38 with FAM) which you are unable to attain. Unnecessary, especially since the hard cap on tower shields is a 10MDB. You are just wasting feats. Since you have so many extra feats, the rationale of monk over rogue disappears again. Take rogue, it gets you more dex, more dps, and UMD.

Even if your original build was only S/B, youd still be better off going with the build I laid out. Evasion at no penalty to AC on a tank is a dream come true.

ok, i was trying to play nice, but apparently you do not care for such thing so i'm just going to be blunt
YOU have no idea what i'm talking about and you're arguing for your sake instead of making contribution.
i CAN and MIGHT dual wield 5% weighted weapons while i'm in SUPERIOR DEFENSIVE STANCE
i put the shield bonus for calculation BECAUSE I'M PLANNING A SHIELD AND BOARD BUILD, NOT A DUAL WIELD BUILD! i only said i'm THINKING about splashing in the ability to dual wield when i don't need to play defensive

seriously, for crying out loud, if you don't understand why i do something, ASK rather thing ASSUME you know. i took the 2 monk lvl for TWO FREE FEATS TO TAKE TOUGHNESS since TOUGHNESS IS NOT A CLASS FEAT FOR FIGHTER

and OBVIOUSLY you have still yet to figure out by now that in order to take STALWART DEFENDER, you MUST have taken Toughness as a feat, since i reserved all the general feats for body-related upgrades, i used class feats to make them up so i can continue forth with my body upgrades

now, you're telling people not to make a build planned by me, that's fine, i don't expect people to build what i play since i play what i build and build what i like to play. if you like it, build it, if not, move on.
HOWEVER, i find it offensive when you accuse me of ignorance. FYI, i'm not the one stuck thinking one way of building things, i'm not the one unable to come up with new builds, and DEFINITELY NOT the one who can't READ nor COMPREHEND another person's build.

I think I'm just going to ask you to just leave and not come back to this thread since you're not helping IN THE LEAST IF ANY AT ALL.

[Shroonith]

ok, i was trying to play nice, but apparently you do not care for such thing so i'm just going to be blunt
YOU have no idea what i'm talking about and you're arguing for your sake instead of making contribution.
i CAN and MIGHT dual wield 5% weighted weapons while i'm in SUPERIOR DEFENSIVE STANCE
i put the shield bonus for calculation BECAUSE I'M PLANNING A SHIELD AND BOARD BUILD, NOT A DUAL WIELD BUILD! i only said i'm THINKING about splashing in the ability to dual wield when i don't need to play defensive

seriously, for crying out loud, if you don't understand why i do something, ASK rather thing ASSUME you know. i took the 2 monk lvl for TWO FREE FEATS TO TAKE TOUGHNESS since TOUGHNESS IS NOT A CLASS FEAT FOR FIGHTER

and OBVIOUSLY you have still yet to figure out by now that in order to take STALWART DEFENDER, you MUST have taken Toughness as a feat, since i reserved all the general feats for body-related upgrades, i used class feats to make them up so i can continue forth with my body upgrades

now, you're telling people not to make a build planned by me, that's fine, i don't expect people to build what i play since i play what i build and build what i like to play. if you like it, build it, if not, move on.
HOWEVER, i find it offensive when you accuse me of ignorance. FYI, i'm not the one stuck thinking one way of building things, i'm not the one unable to come up with new builds, and DEFINITELY NOT the one who can't READ nor COMPREHEND another person's build.

I think I'm just going to ask you to just leave and not come back to this thread since you're not helping IN THE LEAST IF ANY AT ALL.


AHAHAHAHAHA.
Seriously, I doubt anyones reading this thread but I want to make it clear:

Taking 11DR in feats and enhancements that does not stack with 6DR from your prestige is waste at the highest extreme.

The OP IS ignorant. When you post a supposed TWF build version as a rebuttal, you dont put in shield AC. You certainly dont give yourself 4 unecessary mithral fluidity on ANY build.

[Jay203]

AHAHAHAHAHA.
Seriously, I doubt anyones reading this thread but I want to make it clear:

Taking 11DR in feats and enhancements that does not stack with 6DR from your prestige is waste at the highest extreme.

The OP IS ignorant. When you post a supposed TWF build version as a rebuttal, you dont put in shield AC. You certainly dont give yourself 4 unecessary mithral fluidity on ANY build.

alrite "genius"
if you ACTUALLY READ LIKE YOU'RE SUPPOSE TO, you'd have noticed the -10 to ac WHILE DUAL-WIELDING under the ac calculation for the dual-wield rendition
HOWEVER, seeing how you're so narrow-minded and self-centered, you completely skipped it.

DR of 11/adamantine will STILL be there IF i decide to dual wield when the situation calls for dps instead of defensive style

now, let's move on to YOUR build, let's see what we've got
Feats:


Feats: 7 normal, 10 FTR
GTWF(3)
WF,WS,GWF,GWS,IC: Slash or Pierce (5)
PA
CE
Mithril Body
Mithril Fluidity x1
Dodge
-------------Important ones above [13], tentative below [4]---------------
SF:UMD
Bullheaded
Force of Personality (depending on stats)
Toughness (may or may not be needed since it sucks up Action Points)
-------------Also consider instead of GTWF-------------
Shield Mastery
Improved Shield Mastery
SF:Intimidate

just from your comment of "may or my not be needed" on Toughness shows much much YOU researched and know. in case you haven't NOTICED (and i TRIED to remind you), TOUGHNESS IS A REQUIRED FEAT for Stalwart Defender


The strength of mithril body is this:
5Base + 7DT-Docent + 5MDB + 3FAM + 1Fluidity : 21 [9 total MDB, 1 less than a maxed mithral tower shield 4base+3ftr+3stalwart]

vs a non-dwarf plate wearer

15DT-Plate + 1MDB +3 FAM + 2 Stalwart Defender (extra MDB) : 21 AC

You dont lose AC but gain Evasion by going mithril body.

and the str of Stalwart Defender is in its free bonus of armor mastery II for heavy armor, which means adamantine body gets
8 base + 7 DT Docent + 3 MDB + 3 FAM: 20
i get 1 less at base ac, but in return i also need less dex to achieve this which gives me more points to allocate into other things
now if we put in the tower shield as well
20 base ac from body alone + 9 tower shield: 29 ac, max dex uneffected at all while your build has the following
21 + 9: 30, required 2 tiers of Tower shield mastery, 6 aps for 1 AC, and here you're whining about not having enough ap

of course, you COULD argue that i spent 12 aps into improved damage reduction, however, i can say that my damage reduction REMAINS WHILE I DUAL-WIELD and your DR/- DOES NOT, every damage negation helps, especially when it's a permenent stone skin that can't be dispelled

now to actually use your ac break down (who assumed +4 tomes as expected from a wannabe elitist)


AC Breakdowns:
Common Party DPS (PA not CE) TWF AC:
10 Base
8 Body
7 DT
6 MDB
1 Alchemy
1 Dodge
5 Protection
2 Chaosgardes
3 Chattering ring
3 Barkskin pot
3 Stalwart Passive
4 Stalwart Defensive Stance
1 Haste
-----
54 No paladin

Raid Tanking (Shield and CE) AC:
+2 real bark
+4 Bard
+4 Insight (Levik Shield + docent)
+10 Mithril Tower Shield
+5 Paladin (non DoS)
+2 Recitation
+5 Combat Expertise
+5 Shield Blocking
-----
91 AC

i get the same ac as you, but i have higher DR than you do since i have 11/adamantine while you have 6/-, 5 extra DR more than you (ASSUMING YOU TOOK SHIELD MASTER AND IMPROVED SHIELD MASTERY)
i've lost nothing, gained more DR, more points to allocate into other stats
what you gained, evasion and full ranks of UMD while mine will be at
11 base + 5 cha + 2 head + 4 gh + 5 gloves + 6 shroud item = 33 which is still enough for shield wand if i want to dual-wield

now on to enhancements:


Enhancements: (tentative)
FTR STR III : 12AP
ROG DEX I: 2AP
WF CON II: 6AP
20 total

Stalwart III: 8AP
FAM III: 12AP
FTSM II: 8AP <= 6 ap
FTR Item Defense II: 3AP
Armor Boost IV: 6AP <= 10 ap
39 total

Scimitar/Rapier Specialization II: 3AP
WF Power Attack (III?): 6AP
ROG Sneak Attack Training I: 1AP
Fighter Haste Boost II: 3AP
13 total

WF Brute Fighting I: 1AP
FTR Intimidate II: 3AP
4 total

WF Healer's Friend I: 2AP
Fighter Toughness II: 3AP
Racial Toughness II: 3AP
8 total
If i'm not mistaken, that's 84 spent total =_=

maybe it's just me, but someone who can't even correctly count to 80 is calling another ignorant? not to mention you have some of the #s wrong

for me thus far:


Stalwart Defender III: 8 ap
Fighter Str II: 6 ap
Fighter Intimidate III: 6 ap
Animal Path - Badger : 1 ap
Armor Boost III: 6 ap
Armor Mastery III: 12 ap
Item Defence II: 3 ap
Racial Toughness II: 3 ap
Fighter Toughness II: 3 ap
WF Con II: 6 ap
WF Damage Reduction III: 12 ap
Healer's Friend I: 2 ap
68 spent
12 points left


now for my twf build
i assumed a +2 tome and got to a dex bonus of 10
with a +4 tome i can get to a dex bonus of 11
which means 5 base MDB + 6 from mith fluidity for a total of 11 MDB is ATTAINABLE
so i put in 3 tiers in tower shield mastery, wich would cap my dex bonus at 4 base for mith tower shield + 3 stalwart defender + 3 tower shield master = 10
so my ac while dual-wielding will be (according to your gear setup that is)


AC Breakdowns:
Common Party DPS (PA not CE) TWF AC:
10 Base
5 Body
7 DT
11 MDB
1 Alchemy
1 Dodge
5 Protection
2 Chaosgardes
4 Insight
3 Chattering ring
3 Barkskin pot
3 Stalwart Passive
4 Stalwart Defensive Stance
1 Haste
-----
60 No paladin

and while holding shield for raid tanking:


Raid Tanking (Shield and CE) AC:
+2 real bark
+4 Bard
+10 Mithril Tower Shield
-1 dex bonus
+5 Paladin (non DoS)
+2 Recitation
+5 Combat Expertise
+5 Shield Blocking
-----
92 AC

HIGHER AC than your build
seriously, just go away since your inputs are nothing more than distractions at this point, there's no actual contribution, no critique, only the attitude of "I'm better than you" (though clearly wrong >_>)

[Aeneas]

So why not save 6 feats you spend on DR and take the rogue levels (on the paladin build and the fighter) and self cast stoneskin off of a wand for dr/10 adamantine? Seems like 6 more toughness feats would be more useful than 1 point of dr over a SS wand. Not to mention the AP's you'd have to spend. The 6.5 points of average extra damage on backstabs, Full UMD, rogue haste boost, rogue skill boost, access to disable, search, intimidate, and open lock as class skills seems better to me than the monk splash for toughness and CE, especially considering you won't be taking advantage of the wis bonus to AC or attack speed bonus from wind stance and you'll probably never consistently be the main aggro generator with DPS at 32 str (making the backstab damage important).

My only other worry would be that a +35 to hit is a bit on the low side (or at least will be in the mod 9 stuff as our current end raid boss on normal has an AC around 35),

*Doesn't shield blocking only add 2 AC? You have 5 listed, but i might have missed a memo.


Admittedly, i may have jumbled some stuff together as i perused all the mess of information in this thread, more than one build in a thread is a bad idea.

[Jay203]

So why not save 6 feats you spend on DR and take the rogue levels and self cast stoneskin off of a wand for dr/10 adamantine? Seems like 6 more toughness feats would be more useful than 1 point of dr over a SS wand. Not to mention the AP's you'd have to spend. The 6.5 points of average extra damage on backstabs, Full UMD, rogue haste boost, rogue skill boost, access to disable, search, intimidate, and open lock as class skills seems better to me than the monk splash for toughness and CE, especially considering you won't be taking advantage of the wis bonus to AC or attack speed bonus from wind stance.

i've thought about it before, but i really need to get rid of my habit of relying on UMD to do my defense =(
that and i kinda got tired of seeing my inventory fill up with wands and scrolls >_<
trying really hard to stray away from doing rogue/bard splashes and spoil myself with UMD :(:(:(:(
kinda like the fact i have permanent stoneskin though =) can't be dispeled, doesn't wear out, and it's there no matter what equip set i'm using :)
(not to mention i get the feeling we'll get dispelled ALOT in mod 9)


EDIT:blocking has a base ac of 2, and stalwart defender adds a bonus to it each tier, so we're under assumption it'll add + 3 to blocking ac total atm

EDIT 2: and thx for actually giving inputs :)

[Shroonith]

Your build is pointless and redundant and has no evasion but for some reason has 2 monk levels. Just stop even trying.

[Jay203]

Your build is pointless and redundant and has no evasion but for some reason has 2 monk levels. Just stop even trying.

honestly, just gtfo, you just can't get over the thought that NOT EVERYONE TAKES 2 LEVELS OF MONK/ROGUE FOR EVASION
your comments are pointless, just stop even posting

[Shroonith]

Seriously man, your build is bad. Your giving up too many useful skills for things which provide minimal benefit.

Your TWF rebuttal will be doing so little damage as to not even warrant its existence. Your main S/B original build will, when compared with a simple 18ftr/2rog evasion version (dropping TWF for the shield mastery feats), have at most 5 more DR, useless on a build that will never be hit. It will be missing UMD, evasion, and things like SF:Intimidate and Bullheaded, crucial for an intimitank. What use is all that DR if your failing your intim? You certainly wont be keeping his agro with DPS.

[Jay203]

So why not save 6 feats you spend on DR and take the rogue levels (on the paladin build and the fighter) and self cast stoneskin off of a wand for dr/10 adamantine? Seems like 6 more toughness feats would be more useful than 1 point of dr over a SS wand. Not to mention the AP's you'd have to spend. The 6.5 points of average extra damage on backstabs, Full UMD, rogue haste boost, rogue skill boost, access to disable, search, intimidate, and open lock as class skills seems better to me than the monk splash for toughness and CE, especially considering you won't be taking advantage of the wis bonus to AC or attack speed bonus from wind stance and you'll probably never consistently be the main aggro generator with DPS at 32 str (making the backstab damage important).

My only other worry would be that a +35 to hit is a bit on the low side (or at least will be in the mod 9 stuff as our current end raid boss on normal has an AC around 35),

*Doesn't shield blocking only add 2 AC? You have 5 listed, but i might have missed a memo.


Admittedly, i may have jumbled some stuff together as i perused all the mess of information in this thread, more than one build in a thread is a bad idea.

it's fine, at least you're not acting like a CERTAIN SOMEONE that can't stand to be wrong :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
anyway, +35 is somewhat average without going min/max, i guess i can always get out of CE mode for +5 more to attack if i really can't hit stuff (shouldn't happen, hopefully :P)
there's gotta be some stuff to further increase +to hit that i haven't factored in yet isn't there? full bard song? anyway, if +35 is really too low to hit stuff in the new content, then a lot of my other toons are gonna have problem hitting things =(

[Jay203]

Seriously man, your build is bad. Your giving up too many useful skills for things which provide minimal benefit. useless comment that's not needed

Your TWF rebuttal will be doing so little damage as to not even warrant its existence. Your main S/B original build will, when compared with a simple 18ftr/2rog evasion version (dropping TWF for the shield mastery feats), have at most 5 more DR, useless on a build that will never be hit. It will be missing UMD, evasion, and things like SF:Intimidate and Bullheaded, crucial for an intimitank. What use is all that DR if your failing your intim? You certainly wont be keeping his agro with DPS.

finally some ACTUAL input. i understand your "concern" for the dps output, however, that has never been a problem for me as an intimidate toon
if you STILL wish to push the idea further, do realize that neither of our builds can compare to a ranger's dps-wise, but the difference between my build and your build will be quite low. your build focuses on rapier/scimitar (the high crit range weapons)
i focus on blunt/autocrit/high crit threat weapons, when the enemies are being auto-critted, i think it really makes not too much difference does it >_>
the problem with your idea is that you'll be twf most of the time, which means you'll have no dr at all unless you constantly try to keep up stoneskin on yourself, the 6/- dr from defender ONLY applies when holding shield
my 11/adamantine dr applies whether or not i'm holding shield, should the enemy bypass my dr, i still have my 6/- to fall back on
in a way i combine the intimitank idea of damage mitigation thru ac and mitigation thru DR together in one. downside is the evasion bit, that's it
intimidate of 59 w/o greensteel item and without bard buff is actually quite decent >_>
add 6 to both intimidate and UMD if i decide to go greensteel, i'm pretty sure 65 is enough for majority of the stuff known thus far
UMD-wise, base of 11 + 5 cha + 4 GH + 2 HoGF = 22 + 6 greensteel item and +5 seven fingered glove for 33, enough for most stuff that i actually need >_>