The Economy

[Dauugi]

Want to end plat farming? Here is what the dev's need to do:

1. Put a cap on how much you can sell an item for in the AH (ex: 4 times its listed price) A prime example of this is a green brier twig currently on AH is valued at 55gp, it is currently selling for as high as 1.2 million gp! Where in Stormreach am I going to get 1.2 million gp?

2. Remove the Coin Lords "take" or percentage. This is and always has been ridiculous, it is the prime reason why auctions run in the millions, it's because the coin lords take so much that it is not worth selling it otherwise. Seriously, you sell an item for 100k gp and you only get about 75k off the sale. Where does it go? :mad:

I think that would solve the plat farming issue because there would not be a need to go out and buy enough gold to buy an ingredient or weapon. It would allow everyone to be able to upgrade their weapons and enjoy the game a little more.

I like playing the game, but honestly for casual players that don't grind the shroud and other quests 24 hours a day it is a little hard to do anything or keep up with the new content.

[Dragon.Star]

Want to end plat farming? Here is what the dev's need to do:

1. Put a cap on how much you can sell an item for in the AH (ex: 4 times its listed price) A prime example of this is a green brier twig currently on AH is valued at 55gp, it is currently selling for as high as 1.2 million gp! Where in Stormreach am I going to get 1.2 million gp?
I completely agree with you on the prices in auctions. But it is what it is because people actually pay those prices. Getting 100K plate isn't that hard these days unless one barely plays.
As for where to get 1.2 million Gold, check out my contest on Ghallanda if you reside there. Link is my Sig.

2. Remove the Coin Lords "take" or percentage. This is and always has been ridiculous, it is the prime reason why auctions run in the millions, it's because the coin lords take so much that it is not worth selling it otherwise. Seriously, you sell an item for 100k gp and you only get about 75k off the sale. Where does it go? :mad:
They always take 30% of any sale, this includes what you paid up front. I think this is a good fee with the way the system is.

I think that would solve the plat farming issue because there would not be a need to go out and buy enough gold to buy an ingredient or weapon. It would allow everyone to be able to upgrade their weapons and enjoy the game a little more.
If people have to buy plat to enjoy the game, that is a shame. The is plenty to do in this game with out having to buy plat.

I like playing the game, but honestly for casual players that don't grind the shroud and other quests 24 hours a day it is a little hard to do anything or keep up with the new content.

Answers in Red

[Kintro]

Answers in Red

Theres been a suggestion floating around for a while to change the AH to a higher upfront fee based on your list price/buyout and removing or greatly reducing the fee on selling the item.

This would (hopefully) get rid of the speculative listing and re-listing of items at unrealistic prices.

[unionyes]

I disagree with the OP.

Yes, plat farmers suck. The spam is annoying. The complete tools who buy accounts and run around like morons at level 16 needing directions to Gianthold are aggravating. The cost of things on the AH goes up, probably by a lot.

However you need to remember that buying things of the AH isn't the only way to get them. I very seldom buy anything from the AH myself, other than the occasional robe or lowbie to mid level armor or weapon, and then only if the price is right.

My Planar Gird? Looted it. My Wiz V hat? Looted it. My Vorpal Scimmie? Yep, looted that too. Well actually a guildie did, and gave it to me, and I passed on the Vorpal Great Axe to another guildie. My Dusk Heart? Looted that too.

But Unionyes, you may ask, how did you do it? Well, I looked at the AH and saw that things were freaking expensive, and for the most part out of my price range. So I went to the Desert, killed a bunch of stuff repeatedly, opened a lot of chests, and got a Dusk Heart. And I ran a bunch of Giant Hold quests, and got a Vorpal for an end reward. And the Planar Gird drops in Xoriat. Took me eight runs through to get it. I have two of them now, one on each of my higher characters. One day I am going to pull a Bloodstone in the Desert. I can feel it in my bones.

At current market prices, I could sell all my higher end gear and be a rich toon, but I am using that stuff atm. Maybe one day I will have half a dozen Bloodstones, and then I will sell one if nobody in my guild needs it.

If you need stuff, a better way of getting it is to go out questing for it, as opposed to complaining about the price of it on the AH. I can't afford it either, but I still get it.

The best way to get rid of the plat farmers is to STOP USING THEM. Obviously, enough people are patronizing them to keep them in business and around.

[Phidius]

Want to end plat farming? Here is what the dev's need to do:

1. Put a cap on how much you can sell an item for in the AH (ex: 4 times its listed price) A prime example of this is a green brier twig currently on AH is valued at 55gp, it is currently selling for as high as 1.2 million gp! Where in Stormreach am I going to get 1.2 million gp?


If you are refering to the Base Value, this is a bad idea. The "Goggles of Intuition" for example have a base price of 4,200 gold. The market value is much higher, closer to 1-4 million gold. If you only let people post it on the AH for a max buyout of 16,800 gold you will never see the goggles on the AH again. They'll just sell it on the forum's marketplace for their server instead.

If you are refering to the intial bid, this is also a bad idea. The seller will just increase the initial bid, and you will still pay a higher price without the chance to get a lower.

If you need 1.2 million, I'd suggest selling green briar twigs.



2. Remove the Coin Lords "take" or percentage. This is and always has been ridiculous, it is the prime reason why auctions run in the millions, it's because the coin lords take so much that it is not worth selling it otherwise. Seriously, you sell an item for 100k gp and you only get about 75k off the sale. Where does it go? :mad:


No, auctions run in the millions because the seller thinks the market will support that price. Sellers normally determine how much they want for an item, and multiply that price by 1.5 to get their sale price. Removing the "take" will not cause WoP rapiers to sell for 72,000 gold...



I think that would solve the plat farming issue because there would not be a need to go out and buy enough gold to buy an ingredient or weapon. It would allow everyone to be able to upgrade their weapons and enjoy the game a little more.

I like playing the game, but honestly for casual players that don't grind the shroud and other quests 24 hours a day it is a little hard to do anything or keep up with the new content.

The gear is nice, yes, but it isn't necessary (yet) to keep up with the new content. It is, however, necessary to keep up with the Jones.


I disagree with the OP.

Yes, plat farmers suck. The spam is annoying. The complete tools who buy accounts and run around like morons at level 16 needing directions to Gianthold are aggravating. The cost of things on the AH goes up, probably by a lot.

However you need to remember that buying things of the AH isn't the only way to get them. I very seldom buy anything from the AH myself, other than the occasional robe or lowbie to mid level armor or weapon, and then only if the price is right.

My Planar Gird? Looted it. My Wiz V hat? Looted it. My Vorpal Scimmie? Yep, looted that too. Well actually a guildie did, and gave it to me, and I passed on the Vorpal Great Axe to another guildie. My Dusk Heart? Looted that too.

But Unionyes, you may ask, how did you do it? Well, I looked at the AH and saw that things were freaking expensive, and for the most part out of my price range. So I went to the Desert, killed a bunch of stuff repeatedly, opened a lot of chests, and got a Dusk Heart. And I ran a bunch of Giant Hold quests, and got a Vorpal for an end reward. And the Planar Gird drops in Xoriat. Took me eight runs through to get it. I have two of them now, one on each of my higher characters. One day I am going to pull a Bloodstone in the Desert. I can feel it in my bones.

At current market prices, I could sell all my higher end gear and be a rich toon, but I am using that stuff atm. Maybe one day I will have half a dozen Bloodstones, and then I will sell one if nobody in my guild needs it.

If you need stuff, a better way of getting it is to go out questing for it, as opposed to complaining about the price of it on the AH. I can't afford it either, but I still get it.

The best way to get rid of the plat farmers is to STOP USING THEM. Obviously, enough people are patronizing them to keep them in business and around.

Yup, that's what I did. I also shop the AH to see where to focus my loot runs :)

[unionyes]

I
The gear is nice, yes, but it isn't necessary (yet) to keep up with the new content. It is, however, necessary to keep up with the Jones.

Exactly true.

Had an interesting experience in a GH pug group last week where a couple of two weapon fighters were comparing, oohing, and aahing over each others gear. They had banishers, and smiters, and paralyzers, and cursespewers, and vorpals, and disruptors, and wicked cool armor, and gear out the wazoo. All I had was two thirds of the kills. Good thing I was just along for the Hasting or I would have felt bad about not having any of that uber gear.

[chester99]

Want to end plat farming? Here is what the dev's need to do:

1. Put a cap on how much you can sell an item for in the AH (ex: 4 times its listed price) A prime example of this is a green brier twig currently on AH is valued at 55gp, it is currently selling for as high as 1.2 million gp! Where in Stormreach am I going to get 1.2 million gp?

2. Remove the Coin Lords "take" or percentage. This is and always has been ridiculous, it is the prime reason why auctions run in the millions, it's because the coin lords take so much that it is not worth selling it otherwise. Seriously, you sell an item for 100k gp and you only get about 75k off the sale. Where does it go? :mad:

I think that would solve the plat farming issue because there would not be a need to go out and buy enough gold to buy an ingredient or weapon. It would allow everyone to be able to upgrade their weapons and enjoy the game a little more.

I like playing the game, but honestly for casual players that don't grind the shroud and other quests 24 hours a day it is a little hard to do anything or keep up with the new content.

Your plan to combat plat farming is to make plat worthless and destroy the economy? Wow. You have a future in politics.

[Thrudh]

Take advantage of the high prices...

Run Coal Chamber or Rainbow 10 times, pick up 5 twigs... Keep the two you need to craft, and sell the other 3 for 800k each... Use THAT money to buy something else you need...

I got most of my items by selling something in demand and buying the old stuff... I ran Desert over 200 times, never got a bloodstone... I ran Xorian 30 times, never got a planar gird...

Finally, I just started selling the stuff people wanted... Gianthold came out... I sold all my relics for high prices (because the uber rich couldn't wait to grind them out themselves, they wanted in the raid quick as possible). After I made a couple of million, THEN I started collecting for myself...

Same with Orchard tapestries, and tome pieces, and shield pieces... Sold them the first couple of months instead of collecting for myself.

Same with Vale ingrediants... Right now, only the twigs are expensive, but at one time, ALL the ingrediants went for good prices... so I sold them... and waited to craft my own weapon...

Run the Shroud... Sell the large ingrediants for 800k gold each (stones go for 1.5 million, scales for 3-4 million). First 5-10 runs just sell stuff, then start collecting for yourself...

The new Mod is coming out... SOMETHING will be badly wanted by the uber-elite-rich... Whatever it is, you'll want to collect it for yourself as well, but don't.... sell whatever it is to the rich for the first 2 months, and then start collecting for yourself..

Then you can use all that cash to buy the things that you don't want to grind for...

Doing the Shroud or Vale quests for guarented ingrediants is much more fun than grinding the desert for 200 runs, and coming up empty... I sold all those ingrediants and bought my bloodstone and planar gird off the AH.

Good luck to you

[Impaqt]

Want to end plat farming? Here is what the dev's need to do:

1. Put a cap on how much you can sell an item for in the AH (ex: 4 times its listed price) A prime example of this is a green brier twig currently on AH is valued at 55gp, it is currently selling for as high as 1.2 million gp! Where in Stormreach am I going to get 1.2 million gp?

THis only makes the problem worse, Now, Plat farmers get more of a corner on the market, this forces people to use 3rd party sites.

1.2mil Gold isnt really that hard to come by. Pull one nice weapon or item, Pull a bunch of **** and sell it off. or, Run C-Chamber and Rainbow and get yer twigs for free.



2. Remove the Coin Lords "take" or percentage. This is and always has been ridiculous, it is the prime reason why auctions run in the millions, it's because the coin lords take so much that it is not worth selling it otherwise. Seriously, you sell an item for 100k gp and you only get about 75k off the sale. Where does it go? :mad:

Until we get more effective ways to remove currency from the game, the fee must stay.



I think that would solve the plat farming issue because there would not be a need to go out and buy enough gold to buy an ingredient or weapon. It would allow everyone to be able to upgrade their weapons and enjoy the game a little more.

I like playing the game, but honestly for casual players that don't grind the shroud and other quests 24 hours a day it is a little hard to do anything or keep up with the new content.

THis does nothing tostop plat farmers... Helps em out even in the long run.

[Zenako]

Want to end plat farming? Here is what the dev's need to do:

1. Put a cap on how much you can sell an item for in the AH (ex: 4 times its listed price) A prime example of this is a green brier twig currently on AH is valued at 55gp, it is currently selling for as high as 1.2 million gp! Where in Stormreach am I going to get 1.2 million gp?

2. Remove the Coin Lords "take" or percentage. This is and always has been ridiculous, it is the prime reason why auctions run in the millions, it's because the coin lords take so much that it is not worth selling it otherwise. Seriously, you sell an item for 100k gp and you only get about 75k off the sale. Where does it go? :mad:

I think that would solve the plat farming issue because there would not be a need to go out and buy enough gold to buy an ingredient or weapon. It would allow everyone to be able to upgrade their weapons and enjoy the game a little more.

I like playing the game, but honestly for casual players that don't grind the shroud and other quests 24 hours a day it is a little hard to do anything or keep up with the new content.

Sorry, but you are seriously off base on this points.

Point 1: IF you were to put a cap on prices, then all it would do is ensure that only junk items would get listed if even that. NO ONE would offer for auction any of those "Cool" items you covet. The only market would be off the board trades, or incessant spamming in the trade or general channels in game or activity on the marketplace forums. PLus when you are dealing with person to person trades, a LOT of things tend to go wrong. You plan to meet in game at time X, trade partner can't make it, still in a raid or not logged on, whatever. I have seen people litterally spend hours over a span of days trying to get something settled. Sucks.

As for where you are going to get that kind of coin. Just quest. IF you really need coin, it is easy to come by. Just loot the vale for example. Twink up a haggle toon to enhance your sales prices. Hitting a 50+ haggle is not hard to do and can more than double the money you might get over some toons. If that is too hard or you cannot be bothered, then you don't REALLY need the coin, all you REALLY want is an easy button.

Point 2: ALL Auction houses take a cut. You might disagreee with the percentage, but they get a cut. The ~30% cut is reasonable in the context of the DDO universe.

Nothing you have mentioned would do a single thing about Plat Farmers. All it would do is drive the place to spend the coin someplace else, into private trades. WIth private trades no coin is taken out of the economy and that will lead to even greater inflation further increasing the cost of those desirable items. We are constantly adding more wealth to the game by looting. We substract wealth from the economy when we purchase consumables, when we repair, when we buy stuff from vendors and when we conduct transactions on the AH. Skimming out 300K (on a 1 Mil) auction is the equivalent of taking a LOT of consumables out of the game in one shot. Helps to slow overall inflation.

It is not hard to keep up with the new content if you want to. It is hard for someone who plays a few hours a week to keep up with someone who plays a few hours every single day. Simply the facts of life. As some mentioned, many of those common "good items" on the AH are straightforward to loot from well known quests. You really really want a bloodstone. Loot run the desert chests until you get one. Of course along the way you will also be getting a pile of other loot to use or sell too.

[Donnie]

Sorry, but you are seriously off base on this points.

Point 1: IF you were to put a cap on prices, then all it would do is ensure that only junk items would get listed if even that. NO ONE would offer for auction any of those "Cool" items you covet. The only market would be off the board trades, or incessant spamming in the trade or general channels in game or activity on the marketplace forums. PLus when you are dealing with person to person trades, a LOT of things tend to go wrong. You plan to meet in game at time X, trade partner can't make it, still in a raid or not logged on, whatever. I have seen people litterally spend hours over a span of days trying to get something settled. Sucks.

Yep.

[Kalanth]

1. Put a cap on how much you can sell an item for in the AH (ex: 4 times its listed price) A prime example of this is a green brier twig currently on AH is valued at 55gp, it is currently selling for as high as 1.2 million gp! Where in Stormreach am I going to get 1.2 million gp?

1.2 million gp is 120k pp, which is rather easy to make and I have that across several characters already. Get a lucky pull, say a +2 W/E weapon, and sell it on the AH for a high price and you will suddenly have more than enough money to support your needs. And just how is capping the sale value going to reduce the plat farming? It just means they work longer hours.


2. Remove the Coin Lords "take" or percentage. This is and always has been ridiculous, it is the prime reason why auctions run in the millions, it's because the coin lords take so much that it is not worth selling it otherwise. Seriously, you sell an item for 100k gp and you only get about 75k off the sale. Where does it go? :mad:

Auctions run in the millions because people are willing to pay that kind of money. I don't care that I loose 33% of my income from selling something. It was not the reason I set the price high. The reason was that I knew some goober would pay the over priced number. It's a money pit, and there is nothing wrong with it.


I think that would solve the plat farming issue because there would not be a need to go out and buy enough gold to buy an ingredient or weapon. It would allow everyone to be able to upgrade their weapons and enjoy the game a little more.

I like playing the game, but honestly for casual players that don't grind the shroud and other quests 24 hours a day it is a little hard to do anything or keep up with the new content.

I don't think that is accurate. If you cap the selling rate then they will simply hit the ceiling on their asking price. Others will begin to use the forums to sell and ask even higher prices. Tackling the plat farmer issue has nothing to do with the value of the items. Plat farmers are going to sell the plat to willing people for the sole fact that they know people are buying.

Btw, got a tell yesterday from a plat farmer advertising WoP weapons at "only $350/item." I don't think they are to worried about it if they cap the AH, cause then they will just farm items.

[Issip]

Take advantage of the high prices...

Run Coal Chamber or Rainbow 10 times, pick up 5 twigs... Keep the two you need to craft, and sell the other 3 for 800k each... Use THAT money to buy something else you need...

I got most of my items by selling something in demand and buying the old stuff... I ran Desert over 200 times, never got a bloodstone... I ran Xorian 30 times, never got a planar gird...

Finally, I just started selling the stuff people wanted... Gianthold came out... I sold all my relics for high prices (because the uber rich couldn't wait to grind them out themselves, they wanted in the raid quick as possible). After I made a couple of million, THEN I started collecting for myself...

Same with Orchard tapestries, and tome pieces, and shield pieces... Sold them the first couple of months instead of collecting for myself.

Same with Vale ingrediants... Right now, only the twigs are expensive, but at one time, ALL the ingrediants went for good prices... so I sold them... and waited to craft my own weapon...

Run the Shroud... Sell the large ingrediants for 800k gold each (stones go for 1.5 million, scales for 3-4 million). First 5-10 runs just sell stuff, then start collecting for yourself...

The new Mod is coming out... SOMETHING will be badly wanted by the uber-elite-rich... Whatever it is, you'll want to collect it for yourself as well, but don't.... sell whatever it is to the rich for the first 2 months, and then start collecting for yourself..

Then you can use all that cash to buy the things that you don't want to grind for...



Quiet you, you're giving away all my get rich strategies!!!

As far as the OP, I don't think nerfing the AH would stop the plat spammers. If all the plat in the game were rendered essentially useless through whatever means we would have problems with devil scale or briar twig spammers.

I think the actions they have taken thus far in limitting access to tells for new players and stranding Korhtos without mail have been sufficient. You can never completely end the problem so long as players are cheesy enough to buy plat or items from the plat spammers, but the number of tells I've received is down about 98% from before, and the **** mail that shows up in my "unconfirmed" mail box doesn't bother me.

[Hokiewa]

absurd suggestion. The best they can do is to avoid exploits such as duping items (i.e. mana pots), which they have done.

Play a little, earn a little coin and quit *****ing

[Dauugi]

Thanks for your views, however, like I said I'm a casual player and most of the response has been to go questing, or get the lucky pull from questing then selling it at a ridiculous amount and so on. I don't have time to run rainbow and coal multiple times, and besides that it is boring as hell to run the same thing over and over. I mean I know people that do and I assume that they are retired or unemployed because I don't see where they have time to grind these quests that much. I like to enjoy other things other than just DDO. I play a couple of hours daily, for players like myself it is extremely difficult to earn a million gold. I just think that AH prices need to be capped off somewhere.

[Zenako]

Quiet you, you're giving away all my get rich strategies!!!


As the patent examiner would say... sorry, but this is a well known technique to those skilled in the art already and thus not patentable (or a real secret)...:eek:

I mean you can even make some serious money buying low on the AH and then just selling to a vendor with a haggle toon on some items. Vendors don't care about stuff like vicious...thankfully.

[Zenako]

Thanks for your views, however, like I said I'm a casual player and most of the response has been to go questing, or get the lucky pull from questing then selling it at a ridiculous amount and so on. I don't have time to run rainbow and coal multiple times, and besides that it is boring as hell to run the same thing over and over. I mean I know people that do and I assume that they are retired or unemployed because I don't see where they have time to grind these quests that much. I like to enjoy other things other than just DDO. I play a couple of hours daily, for players like myself it is extremely difficult to earn a million gold. I just think that AH prices need to be capped off somewhere.

Ok, if you really are playing a couple of hours a day, that alone moves you out of what most consider the "casual gamer" category. You may not be a hard core run the raids on three day timers type, like some I know, but daily play moves you into a higher level than you seem to think. What sort of character levels are you at? For just making $$$, take a higher level character out into the explorer areas in the Vale or Reaver Refuge and you can make 100,000 gold an hour out there, easily, from just the "rare" chests you get from taking out the mini bosses. Some of those chests are there 100% of the time. In about 15 minutes you can likely hit 3 or 4 chests (or more) in either location, and net some very nice things to use or sell.

[bandyman1]

Thanks for your views, however, like I said I'm a casual player and most of the response has been to go questing, or get the lucky pull from questing then selling it at a ridiculous amount and so on. I don't have time to run rainbow and coal multiple times, and besides that it is boring as hell to run the same thing over and over. I mean I know people that do and I assume that they are retired or unemployed because I don't see where they have time to grind these quests that much. I like to enjoy other things other than just DDO. I play a couple of hours daily, for players like myself it is extremely difficult to earn a million gold. I just think that AH prices need to be capped off somewhere.

I disagree.


Fulltime job, family, and other hobbies.

Couple of hours through the day, several more on the weekend. And it's absurdly easy to stockpile plat /shrugs.

I think the main question determining your bankroll is;

a) Do you play a wide range of toon levels??? Then don't expect much. You spend a ton of plat on twinking, scrolls, pots, ect while leveling, and the quests don't generate much of a return.

b) Or do you run almost all capped toons??? The high level quests generate a ton of cash in vendor junk because we're mostly fully equipped. Only thing we're spending plat on here is supplies, and it's easily recouped simply by questing.

Those are the main contributors to your excess or lack of plat.



Seriously though; The " You must have no job, spouse, kids, life, ect, ect " comments everytime someone has more in game than you ( not you Dauugi, just in general ) have got to go. With nothing to do in the 4-6 months between mod releases but grind away, it's absurdly easy for a casual player to amass anything in this game.

[Phidius]

Thanks for your views, however, like I said I'm a casual player and most of the response has been to go questing, or get the lucky pull from questing then selling it at a ridiculous amount and so on. I don't have time to run rainbow and coal multiple times, and besides that it is boring as hell to run the same thing over and over. I mean I know people that do and I assume that they are retired or unemployed because I don't see where they have time to grind these quests that much. I like to enjoy other things other than just DDO. I play a couple of hours daily, for players like myself it is extremely difficult to earn a million gold. I just think that AH prices need to be capped off somewhere.

I understand - I, too, used to be a casual player. This grinding thing is pretty insidious, and creeps up on you slowly. It all starts with "Just think what I could do with [Item X]... where can I get that?".

For me, it started with things like paralyzers, vorpals, and disruptors. Then it was Bloodstones, Spectral Gloves, and Boots of the Innocent. Later came raid loot like the Chattering Ring, Belt of Brute Strength. Don't forget the Shroud with the extra spell points, skill bonuses, etc... VoD is tough, but I really want those Tharne's Goggles...

However, you don't need all this stuff to have fun even in the high-end stuff. Sure, these things make it easier to get completions quickly and reliably, but that's something that only grinders should be interested in. If you are playing just for fun, you don't need all of this.

Just my 2 coppers.

[Kalanth]

However, you don't need all this stuff to have fun even in the high-end stuff. Sure, these things make it easier to get completions quickly and reliably, but that's something that only grinders should be interested in. If you are playing just for fun, you don't need all of this.

Just my 2 coppers.

Your 2 coppers could make him a very rich man. Phidius is very right. The plat farmers prey on the power gamers that don't want to grind and the casual player that thinks they need the uber gear to keep pace with the grinders and power gamers. This is DDO, and unlike WoW or EQ, you do not need a single piece of raid loot or named loot at all to be an effective character. No bloodstone, WoP, W/E, GS, etc, item is going to make the game any more fun for you, just easier. Easier is not always better, unless you are crunching away at the zerg flakes and enjoying rapid fire completions. Most casual players don't buy the box of zerg flakes, however, so I wouldn't worry about buying the high dollar items.

[The_Family_Mordiff]

Thanks for your views, however, like I said I'm a casual player and most of the response has been to go questing, or get the lucky pull from questing then selling it at a ridiculous amount and so on. I don't have time to run rainbow and coal multiple times, and besides that it is boring as hell to run the same thing over and over. I mean I know people that do and I assume that they are retired or unemployed because I don't see where they have time to grind these quests that much. I like to enjoy other things other than just DDO. I play a couple of hours daily, for players like myself it is extremely difficult to earn a million gold. I just think that AH prices need to be capped off somewhere.

I agree that it's hard to get the ridiculous amounts of money that others have, but I disagree with your idea for change, and here's why. The gang with all the money and uber items are playing a different game then you and I are. That's not bad. In fact, it's one of the beautiful things about DDO. Like you I play a couple hours a few nights a week. I'm able to find groups and go on fun quests, i just have to be a little particular about who I group with. I always let people know that I've never run the quest before and I'm looking to work somewhat slowly through it. I find a lot of fun people to group with this way. I've also grouped with uber-weapon yeilding toons and they're fun too.

The plat-farmers suck and we all know that. They're not here because of the game rules allowing them, they are here because some gamers allow them to be here by buying their plat to buy the weapons. That will always be there because there will always be people that like to play that way. However, some of them are fun too. IMO, Turbine has done a pretty good job dealing with the plat-farmers to this point. I trust them to keep handling it.

[SableShadow]

I just think that AH prices need to be capped off somewhere.

It's already capped (at 2.1 m pp iirc).

There are items you still don't see on the AH because of that cap, simply because people are willing to pay much, much more for them than the cap permits.

Do people sometimes put outrageously inflated markups on the AH? Sure. If the price is truly inflated, those things don't sell.

Wait a bit, know what you want, and keep an eye out for it. The prices generally come down to market value and you'll be able to get one of whatever you're looking for at a decent market price instead of an outrageous markup.

[Kylstrem]

I think that would solve the plat farming issue because there would not be a need to go out and buy enough gold to buy an ingredient or weapon. It would allow everyone to be able to upgrade their weapons and enjoy the game a little more.

I like playing the game, but honestly for casual players that don't grind the shroud and other quests 24 hours a day it is a little hard to do anything or keep up with the new content.


I'm not sure I follow the logic. Follow along with me for a moment.

1) People grinding the shroud are getting weapons that can't be sold (they bind).

2) To get the nice weapons that aren't bound require doing quests so that you can open chests (just assume killing Rares in Adventure areas as doing chests).

3) Doing those quests is essentially what the game is about. Whether you play casually or are a powergamer, completing quests and opening chests is the main point of this game. Yes, there is is social interaction and such, but I wouldn't consider someone spending most of their time socially interacting instead of doing quest "a casual gamer"

4) Now most of the stuff that comes out of chests is junk, but you can sell it for gold/plat. But when someone pulls something really useful, that's what keeps people playing. If they pull something they need, they probably aren't going to sell it. If they pull something awesome that they can't use or already have, then they have something that is RARE and Valuable that can be sold.

5) Now, you as, a self-proclaimed casual gamer, apparently feel that this item that this person doesn't need should be very cheap just so you can BUY it. Now, let's say the Devs put a cap on the auction price... can't sell it for more than 4x its value, for example. Well then everyone can afford that.

But what's the point of putting it on the auction house in the first place. Woohoo, I can get 40,000 plat for it.

heck I can get 40,000 plat by running the Vale explorer area in 30 minutes and vendoring everything I pull from the rare chests.

So, you have characters out there with millions of plat just from vendoring items over the course of 3 years. What the heck are they going to do with all that money? What's the purpose of having it all... there's nothing neat to spend it on!


6) But let's say you find fault with the above. Let's say your Auction House Utopia works out exactly as you envision it and there are tons of uber items on the auction house at affordable prices.

What happens? Everyone now has easy access to purchase all the best gear.

What is going to keep you wanting to play the game? Sure, doing the quests can be fun the first few times you do each one. You can even argue that you just like to be on with friends and talk while you do Deleras for the 400th time.

But at some point, if you (and everyone) can buy all the best items in the game (non-bound), the big carrot that makes MMOs work (the opening up of a chest in hopes that you finally get that +5 Holy Silver GreatAxe of Greater Evil Outsider Bane) is gone and you have no reason to continue playing (or at least the majority of players have no reason to play).

At least with High Auction prices, you have to quest a ton to get the money you need to buy the uber items.

[herzkos]

I agree many of the prices listed are ridiculous.
I had this idea a week or two ago and shared it with
the party I was in at the time. It's most likely not an
original idea at all.

Get rid of the fee for selling upon completion. Instead,
make the posting price 20-30% of the buyout of the auction.
This would require every item having a buyout entered.
In addition, the clutter on the AH would be gone pretty quickly because
few people would place ridiculously overpriced items on the AH that they
knew wouldn't sell.

This would also reduce the practice of placing one overpriced item on the AH and
immediately placing multiple versions of the same item for a vastly increased price
in the effort to make the first one look like a "deal".

[Phidius]

I just don't see a problem with the current AH system.


Problem: People post a bunch of cr@p at insane prices.

Solution: Keep scrolling, and move on to the next page.



Problem: I can't afford the +5 Uber Rapier of Leetness.

Solution: You don't really need it - move on to the next page.



Problem: It takes me too long to check the AH for the specific item/effect I would like to pay a reasonable price for

Solution: Start up a thread asking for more search tools in the Auction House.


Did I miss any?

[Phidius]

...

This would also reduce the practice of placing one overpriced item on the AH and
immediately placing multiple versions of the same item for a vastly increased price
in the effort to make the first one look like a "deal".

No, no, no... you're supposed to list multiple over priced versions first, THEN post the cheaper one. :D

[Kylstrem]

Most of these AH/economy/plat farmers suck threads seem to all come down to:

"I want really nice items in the game without actually have to play the game to get them"

[Draccus]

Want to end plat farming? Here is what the dev's need to do:

1. Put a cap on how much you can sell an item for in the AH (ex: 4 times its listed price) A prime example of this is a green brier twig currently on AH is valued at 55gp, it is currently selling for as high as 1.2 million gp! Where in Stormreach am I going to get 1.2 million gp?

2. Remove the Coin Lords "take" or percentage. This is and always has been ridiculous, it is the prime reason why auctions run in the millions, it's because the coin lords take so much that it is not worth selling it otherwise. Seriously, you sell an item for 100k gp and you only get about 75k off the sale. Where does it go? :mad:

I think that would solve the plat farming issue because there would not be a need to go out and buy enough gold to buy an ingredient or weapon. It would allow everyone to be able to upgrade their weapons and enjoy the game a little more.

I like playing the game, but honestly for casual players that don't grind the shroud and other quests 24 hours a day it is a little hard to do anything or keep up with the new content.

I completely disagree with most of this, particularly your first point. By applying even the most basic economic principals to DDO, anyone can see why.

The value of an item is determined by one and only one thing: what the market will bear. If someone is willing to pay 1.2MM for a twig, than that's its value to that person. If it is priced above its value, no one will buy it. If it's priced below its value, it will sell quickly.

Restricting pricing is bad for any economy and it should be allowed to operate freely. Yes, inflation in DDO is huge but the market will balance that inflation if ol' Adam Smith's "invisible hand" is allowed to do what it wants.

When I first started playing DDO abotu 9 months ago, I played the market and won. It was a great example of economics in action, even in a little video game set in a fantasy world. Crafting rituals had just been introducted and those previously worthless collectibles suddenly became VERY valuable. I made a KILLING in the Vial of Pure Water market by watching the trends. When I first saw how valuable they were to some players, I would price my stacks of 5 vials 10% lower than the lowest price on the AH...and they sold. But the very next time I put vials up for auction, I noticed that there were far more vials than the last time and the price was lower. I adjusted my pricing accordingly. If I didn't, they didn't sell. Eventually, the price got so low that it wasn't worth my while to farm Vials. But Lightning Split Soarwood, on the other hand...

[branmakmuffin]

I completely disagree with most of this, particularly your first point. By applying even the most basic economic principals to DDO, anyone can see why.

The value of an item is determined by one and only one thing: what the market will bear. If someone is willing to pay 1.2MM for a twig, than that's its value to that person. If it is priced above its value, no one will buy it. If it's priced below its value, it will sell quickly.

Restricting pricing is bad for any economy and it should be allowed to operate freely. Yes, inflation in DDO is huge but the market will balance that inflation if ol' Adam Smith's "invisible hand" is allowed to do what it wants.
RL economic principles do not apply to on-line games. Attempts to analogize RL to DDO are doomed to failure. People will do ridiculously silly things with made-up money they'd never do IRL (like pay $1.2 million for a twig).

The best way to get rid of plat farmers is to have all loot (including money) "bound to account."


I just don't see a problem with the current AH system.


Problem: People post a bunch of cr@p at insane prices.

Solution: Keep scrolling, and move on to the next page.



Problem: I can't afford the +5 Uber Rapier of Leetness.

Solution: You don't really need it - move on to the next page.



Problem: It takes me too long to check the AH for the specific item/effect I would like to pay a reasonable price for

Solution: Start up a thread asking for more search tools in the Auction House.


Did I miss any?
Yes: "Get rid of the auction house."

[SableShadow]

RL economic principles do not apply to on-line games. Attempts to analogize RL to DDO are doomed to failure. People will do ridiculously silly things with made-up money they'd never do IRL (like pay $1.2 million for a twig).

:rolleyes:

Consider the examples just in this thread, in which the people who *are* applying basic economic principles *are* wealthy ... and those who simply spend themselves into debt or otherwise make poor decisions within the context of those same economic principles are not...

So...whether you like it or not, those princples *do* apply to the game we are currently playing.


The best way to get rid of plat farmers is to have all loot (including money) "bound to account."


Yes: "Get rid of the auction house."

Then they'll stop offering plat, and start offering things like powerleveling and quest completion services. Where there's a buck to be made, people will make it.

"If crime didn't pay, there would be no crime."

[Rightousdude]

How many Plat farmers do you see in the Reavers Refuge compared to Meridia? Not many and there is a simple reason, all the good stuff is bound in the Refuge. You can give a rune to a party member, but can't sell it like a wop or a scale.
Bind the named and premium items and the plat farmers will move to other games. It will be harder to twink, but will get rid of the farmers.

[The_Family_Mordiff]

Most of these AH/economy/plat farmers suck threads seem to all come down to:

"I want really nice items in the game without actually have to play the game to get them"

Actually, while I disagree with the OP that the Auction House needs any changes, I will say that the reason a lot of these are here is you get tired of tells from plat-farmers and running to the mailbox just to receive your weekly MMOBAY.COM message. I don't mind the Auction House at all since I never go to it. The rules for it don't effect me at all, and for those that use it, it seems to be working great and providing them a lot of fun. That's great because it allows more players to enjoy the game. I just think that the plat-sellers are annoying.

[Hokiewa]

Thanks for your views, however, like I said I'm a casual player and most of the response has been to go questing, or get the lucky pull from questing then selling it at a ridiculous amount and so on. I don't have time to run rainbow and coal multiple times, and besides that it is boring as hell to run the same thing over and over. I mean I know people that do and I assume that they are retired or unemployed because I don't see where they have time to grind these quests that much. I like to enjoy other things other than just DDO. I play a couple of hours daily, for players like myself it is extremely difficult to earn a million gold. I just think that AH prices need to be capped off somewhere.


I do apologize if this offends you, but because you are a casual player means nothing in terms of the AH. If you can't afford to buy the item, don't. Grind for it, save up, or as many players do, sucessfully live without it. If you don't have time to run, and that's perfectly understandable, you can't honestly expect an item just given to you?

I'd be more then happy to show you how to make 10k plat without running a seriously hard quest in less then an hour SOLO:)

[Hokiewa]

I completely disagree with most of this, particularly your first point. By applying even the most basic economic principals to DDO, anyone can see why.

The value of an item is determined by one and only one thing: what the market will bear. If someone is willing to pay 1.2MM for a twig, than that's its value to that person. If it is priced above its value, no one will buy it. If it's priced below its value, it will sell quickly.

Restricting pricing is bad for any economy and it should be allowed to operate freely. Yes, inflation in DDO is huge but the market will balance that inflation if ol' Adam Smith's "invisible hand" is allowed to do what it wants.

When I first started playing DDO abotu 9 months ago, I played the market and won. It was a great example of economics in action, even in a little video game set in a fantasy world. Crafting rituals had just been introducted and those previously worthless collectibles suddenly became VERY valuable. I made a KILLING in the Vial of Pure Water market by watching the trends. When I first saw how valuable they were to some players, I would price my stacks of 5 vials 10% lower than the lowest price on the AH...and they sold. But the very next time I put vials up for auction, I noticed that there were far more vials than the last time and the price was lower. I adjusted my pricing accordingly. If I didn't, they didn't sell. Eventually, the price got so low that it wasn't worth my while to farm Vials. But Lightning Split Soarwood, on the other hand...

Sound reasoning!

[Denssor]

Want to end plat farming? Here is what the dev's need to do:

1. Put a cap on how much you can sell an item for in the AH (ex: 4 times its listed price) A prime example of this is a green brier twig currently on AH is valued at 55gp, it is currently selling for as high as 1.2 million gp! Where in Stormreach am I going to get 1.2 million gp?

2. Remove the Coin Lords "take" or percentage. This is and always has been ridiculous, it is the prime reason why auctions run in the millions, it's because the coin lords take so much that it is not worth selling it otherwise. Seriously, you sell an item for 100k gp and you only get about 75k off the sale. Where does it go? :mad:

I think that would solve the plat farming issue because there would not be a need to go out and buy enough gold to buy an ingredient or weapon. It would allow everyone to be able to upgrade their weapons and enjoy the game a little more.

I like playing the game, but honestly for casual players that don't grind the shroud and other quests 24 hours a day it is a little hard to do anything or keep up with the new content.

I think a better way to handle the overpricing of AH items is to make the post fee 30% of the intial price and an additional 10% of the buyout price.

This way people will only post items at prices that they can almost guarantee will sell at that price.

[branmakmuffin]

:rolleyes:

Consider the examples just in this thread, in which the people who *are* applying basic economic principles *are* wealthy ... and those who simply spend themselves into debt or otherwise make poor decisions within the context of those same economic principles are not...

So...whether you like it or not, those princples *do* apply to the game we are currently playing.
It has nothing to do with whether I like it or not, it has to do with the fact that the way economics works in real life simply does not apply to DDO, whether you like it or not.


Then they'll stop offering plat, and start offering things like powerleveling and quest completion services. Where there's a buck to be made, people will make it.
The difference is, the customer has to give the service provider his login info for those services.

[SableShadow]

It has nothing to do with whether I like it or not, it has to do with the fact that the way economics works in real life simply does not apply to DDO, whether you like it or not.

The basics apply:

"Don't spend more than you can afford ."
(e.g. If you can't afford a full set of pots, dropping your last dime on a new sword is a Bad Idea <tm>.)

"Don't throw good money after bad."
(e.g. Any "my cleric is poor!" thread...note the advice given by clerics who are *not* poor.)

"Buy low, sell high."
(e.g. Sell your l00ts at the broker, not the vendor. If you get a rare item, put it on the AH at a market rate, don't vendor or broker it.)

"Labor, properly applied, creates wealth."
(e.g. The people who have the most money are, as a rule, the people who open the most chests.)

"Cost is a function of Supply and Demand."
(e.g. Any rare on the AH is generally more expensive than any common.)

I really don't understand where you're coming from here; basic rules of economics apply to games from chess to poker, nevermind MMOs that have any kind of trade functionality.



The difference is, the customer has to give the service provider his login info for those services.

Hasn't stopped them in other games. Google "Powerleveling WoW" or whatever your alternate game of choice is.

[branmakmuffin]

The basics apply:

"Don't spend more than you can afford ."
Except the supply of money is infinite, for everyone who simply chooses to spend the time. Not the case IRL (unless you have the secret alien lotto numbers).

You can stop the comparisons right there.

[Thrudh]

I play a couple of hours daily, for players like myself it is extremely difficult to earn a million gold. I just think that AH prices need to be capped off somewhere.

If you can flag for the Shroud, run it once a week (takes 45-60 minutes)... Sell everything you find in there... You'll make a million gold (3-4 million if you pull a large scale). You can pull +2 tomes in there as well...

Shroud is the best loot run in the game... 1 million gold in an hour... and it's a very fun raid in my opinion.

[FluffyCalico]

Want to end plat farming? Here is what the dev's need to do:

1. Where in Stormreach am I going to get 1.2 million gp?

2. Remove the Coin Lords "take" or percentage.




1) That is 120K Plat or about 3 hrs of random quests with no great drops. So you can get 120K plat anywhere and everywhere. LOL :eek:

2) I like the coin lords percantage, it makes it more realistic. Maybe drop the cut to say 15% though as it is kinda steep.

[ShaeNightbird]

Except the supply of money is infinite, for everyone who simply chooses to spend the time. Not the case IRL (unless you have the secret alien lotto numbers).

I want to win the secret alien lotto! But only if I get to win a secret alien.

[SableShadow]

Except the supply of money is infinite, for everyone who simply chooses to spend the time. Not the case IRL (unless you have the secret alien lotto numbers).

Time may be infinite, but my time is finite, either in MMOs or IRL. :)

Given infinite time IRL, I'll wager quite strongly I could come up with infinite money IRL as well. ;)

Or are you basically stating the position that, IRL, the amount of wealth if fixed...it cannot be created, only distributed differently?

Or...are you equating money with actual wealth? There was a time when plat could buy you nothing; people traded items for items because there was no mechanism to take money out of the economy...rampant inflation, basically. As more things you could spend plat on (and lots of plat on) showed up in game, this became less the case. There are still items you can't buy for plat, only for trades, but this is less common now.


You can stop the comparisons right there.

Sure, your turn. Why isn't the artificial economy of an MMO a parallel to an RL economy, obeying at least the basic rules of economics? Recall that when the AH didn't exist, players put together their own version, mostly based on barter, on the boards.

[SableShadow]

I want to win the secret alien lotto! But only if I get to win a secret alien.

You don't need the alien lotto, just the regular one.

[branmakmuffin]

Time may be infinite, but my time is finite, either in MMOs or IRL. :)

Given infinite time IRL, I'll wager quite strongly I could come up with infinite money IRL as well. ;)
The difference is, no matter how much money your character has, you can guarantee you can get it one more plat, no matter what. Every single character in DDO, no matter how much money it has, is guaranteed that it can get one more plat, always. You cannot guarantee that IRL.


Sure, your turn. Why isn't the artificial economy of an MMO a parallel to an RL economy, obeying at least the basic rules of economics? Recall that when the AH didn't exist, players put together their own version, mostly based on barter, on the boards.
My turn has been satisfied by my previous assertion. There is no counter to it. And it's compounded by the fact that a DDO player can conjure up money for characters in the blink of an eye (or 10 minutes or less) by buying plat. Again, can't do that IRL. Since economics is a social science, change the way people can behave enough and you change the rules completely.


I want to win the secret alien lotto! But only if I get to win a secret alien.
That's like looking for lesser undead when you have a weapon of lesser undead bane. ;)

[SableShadow]

The difference is, no matter how much money your character has, you can guarantee you can get it one more plat, no matter what. Every single character in DDO, no matter how much money it has, is guaranteed that it can get one more plat, always. You cannot guarantee that IRL.

Huh? Again, what are you talking about? It is not only possible, it is *probable* that you will get that one...more...dollar in real life before you get it in game. Unless you die, drooling, on your keyboard.

And again, money is not wealth. Money is currency...that thing you use to represent wealth so you don't have to give your dentist chickens in exchange for a root canal.



My turn has been satisfied by my previous assertion.

Two words. Empty. Rhetoric.


There is no counter to it. And it's compounded by the fact that a DDO player can conjure up money for characters in the blink of an eye (or 10 minutes or less) by buying plat. Again, can't do that IRL.


Ding! First real think you've said in this thread. Congratz! Haz a cookie! :D

The economy is real; the rules apply. Some people go outside the rules, they buy plat and pull in money they didn't earn (in game), and spend it.

Same thing happens in real life. The biggest offender these days is"deficit spending"...that thing called the nation debt....where did *that* come from, eh? Oh, well, skip that and talk about insurance fraud, bank robbery, governments printing money to cover short term debts, etc etc...people break the rules of basic economics IRL all the time.

Breaking the rules waters it down and screws the person playing by the rules, but it doesn't invalidate the basics.

Look, tell you what...I get that we're on different planes of existance here. You ...who don't believe in the basic rules....you don't follow them, k?

Me...who believes in 'em...I'll go ahead and keep believing in them and, more importantly, applying them.

If you're happy, no worries.

Me? I already *know* I'm going to be happy. :D


Since economics is a social science, change the way people can behave enough and you change the rules completely.

Yep, crack out that magic dust and *make* people behave like you want them to, not how they actually do.

[Uska]

Your plan to combat plat farming is to make plat worthless and destroy the economy? Wow. You have a future in politics.

This is almost quote worthy:) Not being smart I like it.

[branmakmuffin]

Huh? Again, what are you talking about? It is not only possible, it is *probable* that you will get that one...more...dollar in real life before you get it in game. Unless you die, drooling, on your keyboard.
Why are you talking about RL again? And you argue against yourself. You admit it's only probable you will get one more dollar IRL. Yet in DDO it is an absolute certainty that every single "person" in Stormreach will get one more plat, no matter how much he or she has, if he or she wants to (i.e., the player simply puts in the time, until you hit the money storage cap, of course, which is another thing RL does not have).

None of the rest of your points need to be addressed, because you refuse to acknowledge these fundamental differences between Stormreach economics and RL economics, not to mention the fact that Turbine exercises a degree of control over Stormreach economics not possible under even the most repressive regimes IRL.

[Mhykke]

It has nothing to do with whether I like it or not, it has to do with the fact that the way economics works in real life simply does not apply to DDO, whether you like it or not.


Incorrect.

Some "real life" economics may not apply, but some of it definitely does.

The price of x is determined by its supply, and by its demand. This is true in game and in real life.

[Kylstrem]

One of you is arguing ABSOLUTE rules of RL vs In game economy.

Other is arguing that some the real life principles apply.

Agree to that and be done with it. You are both right.

[unionyes]

Incorrect.

Some "real life" economics may not apply, but some of it definitely does.

The price of x is determined by its supply, and by its demand. This is true in game and in real life.

Although I really wanted to stay out of this, as a casual student of economics I need to weigh in a bit.

What 'real life' economics are you talking about? RL economics ranges from pure unadulterated capitalism (not seen here on earth) to tightly controlled communism (again, not seen here on earth).

For the most part, governments regulate the economy to a greater or lesser extent, ostensibly determined by the will of the people, actually determined by the power players in the society.

Health care is a good example. Across the world, the importance and necessity of health care is universally recognized. So governments attempt to make it available. The level of involvement varies, from almost none to universal government funded for all. Most fall somewhere in the broad middle, from funding health care for children from families making less than 'X' per year, to covering all essential services for everyone but not elective or non essentials.

This totally blows apart the 'supply and demand' dynamic, at least in that instance.

Turbine interferes in the in game market too, for certain purposes. At a lower level, consumables such as glowing blue vials and roast boar shanks, as well as arrows and rusty thieves tools have a set base price. This is make sure that they are affordable for the people who need them. There is an unlimited supply of them, I would bet, since I have never gone into the pub to get a ghallanda lemonade and been told they were out. If it was straight supply and demand, an unlimited supply would equal free access, and it doesn't. And nobody can show up with a pile of plat, buy all the Thieves Tools in town, and jack up the price.

For certain collectibles, such as husks, the 'value' is artificially low. For other things, such as a lot of weapons that drop as end reward choices, it is artificially high. Is a +1 flaming bastard sword of spell pen II really worth 128K gold on the open market? No. There is a reason for this. As the 'value' of the husks are low, you can keep them or trade them but it doesn't benefit you to sell them to the bartender. As the 'value' of the crappy to use end reward is high, it benefits you to sell it for the plat. As a result, some items stay in game, and others get sold for plat almost as soon as they are generated by the loot tables, with the occasional exception of someone getting an idea for a build that could use that +1 flaming bastard sword of spell pen II.

At the end of the day, the economy has one purpose. To promote the playing of the game, by which I mean actually going out and questing. You can be questing for plat to buy stuff. You can be questing for stuff to sell for plat. Or, you can be questing for stuff that you can use.

As such, it makes sense that people always need stuff. You should never have enough anything. You should never have enough plat, you should never have enough gear. Once you are 'capped', what is there to aim for besides that elusive whatzit? Most people have at least one toon that has a decent haggle, so the replenishing of consumables such as scrolls, wands, and potions won't be enough to keep you going in and of itself.

[SableShadow]

What 'real life' economics are you talking about?

Well...I'm just saying in response to this...


RL economic principles do not apply to on-line games.

...that I observe this in DDO...


The basics apply:

"Don't spend more than you can afford ."
(e.g. If you can't afford a full set of pots, dropping your last dime on a new sword is a Bad Idea <tm>.)

"Don't throw good money after bad."
(e.g. Any "my cleric is poor!" thread...note the advice given by clerics who are *not* poor.)

"Buy low, sell high."
(e.g. Sell your l00ts at the broker, not the vendor. If you get a rare item, put it on the AH at a market rate, don't vendor or broker it.)

"Labor, properly applied, creates wealth."
(e.g. The people who have the most money are, as a rule, the people who open the most chests.)

"Cost is a function of Supply and Demand."
(e.g. Any rare on the AH is generally more expensive than any common.)



Yes, this is economics with a small 'e'.

[branmakmuffin]

"Don't spend more than you can afford ."

"Don't throw good money after bad."

"Buy low, sell high."
These are not "rules" of economics, they are philosophies on how to manage your finances (however wise they may be).


"Labor, properly applied, creates wealth."
Does not apply to DDO, because the opportunity for instant and effectively infinite wealth creation exists.


"Cost is a function of Supply and Demand."
(e.g. Any rare on the AH is generally more expensive than any common.)
That possibly applies on the AH, but not at vendors, bartender or brokers. And even on the AH it has more to do with perceived uberness (thus explaining why a true chaos rapier of disruption is often listed at 100s of times more than an identical hand axe, for example).

[Draccus]

RL economic principles do not apply to on-line games. Attempts to analogize RL to DDO are doomed to failure. People will do ridiculously silly things with made-up money they'd never do IRL (like pay $1.2 million for a twig).

The best way to get rid of plat farmers is to have all loot (including money) "bound to account."


Yes: "Get rid of the auction house."

You're absolutely wrong, but you knew that. The simple supply-demand curves used to describe how things like tariffs and monopolies impact ecomonies perfectly apply to video game economics.

The differences in the rates and quantities and effort at which money can be obtained (as you pointed out) are irrelevant and don't change the basic curves a single bit...which is why you never see the actual units (dollars, pennies, ruppees, marbles) or relative differences displayed on those simple graphs. But I'm not going to argue it with you. Like most people, I figured out your little message board schtick after reading your third or fourth post on these boards and I'm not interested in it.

[branmakmuffin]

You're absolutely wrong, but you knew that.
Actually what I know now is that you are absolutely wrong (unless you're being sarcastic).


The simple supply-demand curves used to describe how things like tariffs and monopolies impact ecomonies perfectly apply to video game economics.
Here we are again: are you wrong, or are you being sarcastic?

[SableShadow]

These are not "rules" of economics, they are philosophies on how to manage your finances (however wise they may be).

When do "finances" become "economics"? :)



"Labor, properly applied, creates wealth." Does not apply to DDO, because the opportunity for instant and effectively infinite wealth creation exists.

Unless you're duping, you don't have instant and infinite wealth. Notice that even plat farms have to, well, farm plat.

You can make the case that, with regards to the AH, there are players out there who can cap bid whatever they want, whenever they want to. This is different from saying that everyone, or even a significant minority, have that capability. It is also different from saying that even these players have effectively infinite wealth; they simply have way more money than they know what to do with. This doesn't invalidate the existance of an economy, though it does indicate it's pretty sick.


But skip the theory. Assume everyone has access to instant and effectively infinite wealth:


Why are there any rares on the AH at all, if we all have the capability for instant and effectively infinite wealth? Shouldn't they have been instantly snapped up the moment the poster put them on there, for any price? Why did the poster even bother to put them on the AH in the first place?
Before the AH, why did people keep trade lists, and swap items they had for items they wanted? If they had instant and effectively infinite wealth, why would they trade at all?
Why does the OP even exist? Shouldn't the poster have been able to instantly buy whatever he wanted on the AH, instead of putting up a post stating the prices are insane?
Observation says that an economy of some kind exists right now in DDO, and that it pre-dates the AH.

Now, you can say it's a twisted, sick economy...I won't argue with that. I just take issue with the blanket statement that "RL economic principles do not apply to on-line games." when casual observation indicates at least some of them in fact do.

Look at it from a purely development perspective: devs want some kind of in game trade to occur, so they add constucts to at once make trading possible (trade window, etc), facilitate it (AH, marketplace boards), and make it desirable (random l00ts that have value that varies from player to player). It's another mini-game within the actual game, one they've spent a fair amount of resources to make possible.

If the game is constructed, by design, to have *some* flavor of economy, wouldn't their be rules to govern that economy? Those rules may not work exactly like the devs want them to, but they must have at least had *some* ideas they wanted to work, would have drawn from RL examples, and would tweak the details to produce the in game results they want.



"Cost is a function of Supply and Demand."That possibly applies on the AH, but not at vendors, bartender or brokers.

Vendors, bartenders, and brokers are money sinks, right? They're designed to remove money from the game...since we effectively print our own money (plat from chests, items sold for plat), you need money sinks to keep the amount of currency fairly stable. If you don't have money sinks in a game, removing money from circulation, inflation grows without bounds and money has no value.

Look at, say, Mod 1 and 2; a running joke on the trade forums was that plat had no value. Offering plat for rares was a good way to get laughed at. Why? Lots, and lots of money, and nothing to spend it on.

We still have this problem, though perhaps not to the extent we used to...but that's its own debate.

Something like housing, or crafting, that involved money would be a useful way to suck some of this cash out of circulation and give DDO a more reasonably balanced economy.


Mostly, though, I was talking about trade between live players...the people most likely to have what it is you want (Demand) that you haven't been able to find yourself (Supply).



And even on the AH it has more to do with perceived uberness (thus explaining why a true chaos rapier of disruption is often listed at 100s of times more than an identical hand axe, for example).

Sure. People pay for what they *think* has value, not what necessarily does.

That's really all I have at this point; if you're not convinced, well then, you're not convinced.

Play the game how you like; if it works for you, no worries.

[branmakmuffin]

When do "finances" become "economics"? :)
They don't. That's exactly the point. You gave 3 examples of philosophies for managing your finances, not me.


Unless you're duping, you don't have instant and infinite wealth. Notice that even plat farms have to, well, farm plat.
"As quick as 10 minutes" is pretty instant. And as far as infinite, yes, you can buy as much as you want to pay for with RL money, and you can always buy more (so sure, the limit is defined by your willingness and ability to spend RL cash). But, again, no matter how much money a character has, it can always, always, always, absolutely 100% guaranteed, get more (again, assuming the plat storage limit has not been reached). And that is true of every single "person" in Stormreach. That simply is not the case IRL.

Again, there's no reason to discuss the rest of your points because they are to one degree or another predicated on the notion that Stormreach economics have enough in common with RL economics that any comparisons of them are not totally useless. The rules of the two are too different.

[Noctus]

OP just wants an easy button.

None of his ideas, stated for the 28th time, would reach his stated, nor his true goal.


Artifical price caps just create a black market, where seller get what an item is really worth. (here forum trades).

Removing the AH take away would only lead to running inflation.


---> These ideas dont get magically better if they are reposted each month at least once.

[Nonan]

Plat farming happens in any game that has/allows auctions or transfers of items. Back in the good old days of EQ, there used to be a bazaar in the EC tunnels where you would spam your goods.. So there would be 100 peeps spamming, "+2 Wisdom Ring, Drow Elf in blue hat!!!!" it was crazy.

The prices get crazy because people who play a lot can generate a lot of cash and quickly. Wit ha high haggle, a shroud run can produce 50-100k Plat easy. Have 6 toons doing that every 3 days and you can see how the plat adds up. Even with extreme expense, you net 300 k plat a full run, thats at least 600k a week, not including Hound, VoD or Reavers all which can drop some cash as well.

The longer a server is up, the more cash is that floats around. Now a lot gets unused. Peopel quite the game, lose interest or just plain sit on it. But teher is a ton of cash changing hands on legitimate transactions not to mention other transactions.

[branmakmuffin]

OP just wants an easy button.

None of his ideas, stated for the 28th time, would reach his stated, nor his true goal.
That's why the only real solution is to make everything "bound to account." This would make the game more like D&D games where you can't just walk into the corner magic store and buy a +3 holy burst rapier of greater lawful outsider bane.

And you could still twink your lowbies.

[ShaeNightbird]

But you couldn't twink anybody else's lowbies. :p

[branmakmuffin]

But you couldn't twink anybody else's lowbies. :p
Well, that would just be too personal, twinking another's lowbie.

[ShaeNightbird]

I personally have twinked other people's lowbies.

[branmakmuffin]

I personally have twinked other people's lowbies.
Hey, what happens in Stormreach, stays in Stormreach.

[ShaeNightbird]

Stormreach out and twink someone? :cool:

[branmakmuffin]

Stormreach out and ...
... touch somebody's lowbie
Make his toon more Monty Haul
If you can

[ShaeNightbird]

... touch somebody's lowbie
Make his toon more Monty Haul
If you canImpossible!
And what if I happen to be the lowbie, hmm, hmmm? Perhaps I should say; "Oh no, good sir or madame, cease and desist from giving me that nice gear, to prevent me from wandering into labyrinthine Monty Haulways from which I shall ne'er be able to extricate myself" ?

[branmakmuffin]

Impossible!
And what if I happen to be the lowbie, hmm, hmmm? Perhaps I should say; "Oh no, good sir or madame, cease and desist from giving me that nice gear, to prevent me from wandering into labyrinthine Monty Haulways from which I shall ne'er be able to extricate myself" ?
It would probably only be something like a +1 flaming bastard sword of spell penetration II.

[ShaeNightbird]

It would probably only be something like a +1 flaming bastard sword of spell penetration II.Dwarf Only. :eek:

[branmakmuffin]

Dwarf Only. :eek:
Not to mention the ever popular true chaos handwraps of everbright.

[ShaeNightbird]

Not to mention the ever popular true chaos handwraps of everbright.

That's such a hot item. Only a fool would give those away.

[Mhykke]

Again, there's no reason to discuss the rest of your points because they are to one degree or another predicated on the notion that Stormreach economics have enough in common with RL economics that any comparisons of them are not totally useless. The rules of the two are too different.

Economics is the study of how people relate to each other through a production/consumption of goods/services. To suggest that simply b/c this is a virtual world, the behavior of people in this world bears little to no resemblance to the behavior of people in the real world is simply incorrect.

Competition does much the same in the virtual world as it does in the real world. Large supply does the same thing to prices in the virtual world as it does in the real world. Large demand does much the same thing to prices in the virtual world as it does in the real world.

Although I can understand your mistake, since most of your experience is dealing with vendors/brokers that deal in unlimited items (purchasing ghallanda rations), instead of items that hold actual value in game.

[unionyes]

It would probably only be something like a +1 flaming bastard sword of spell penetration II.

If you pull one of those I would be willing to trade for a set of +3 Brigandine, rr Warforged, UMD 40.

[branmakmuffin]

If you pull one of those I would be willing to trade for a set of +3 Brigandine, rr Warforged, UMD 40.
That's so uber. I can't stand the uberness.