Why can’t a fighter defend themselves?

[tigerlee]

I’ve never understood why in D&D defending yourself (AC) doesn’t go up with experience.
All other areas, saves, BAB, # of attacks, hit points etc. all increase as levels increase.
But not defense. Can you imagine the imbalance of a magic system where DC went up but not saves?
(Stop drooling casters).
This leads to very weird situations, for example;
In theory a fresh off the boat wizard has the same defensive skill as a level 16 fighter (assuming equal stats and gear). That’s just ridiculous!

D&D uses hit points to try and compensate (i.e. the wiz will die much faster) But this ‘work around’ only leads to more weirdness, like a character being able to take 50 sword blows and live.
(If a human can have 200 hit points, how many does a polar bear get, much less a Giant)
Bulky armor makes you harder to hit? Not harder to hurt!? If you’re combat experience includes playing tag or a snowball fight, you know just how little sense this makes.

The above is what I think is the core balancing problem of DDO. It’s a vicious circle. (In my PnP days we created our own combat system) Hit points are used to compensate for lack of defense which eventually leads to inflated hit points. Leading to special effects being the most practical kill method, leading to immunities / nerfs to restore balance etc.

So, if you were going to build DDO-2;
Do you think a character should be able to learn to defend themselves better as they level?
Do you think it would help reduce the hit point inflation we are seeing now?
Would this make the game to un-D&D?
Thanks

[Mr_Ed7]

I’ve never understood why in D&D defending yourself (AC) doesn’t go up with experience.
All other areas, saves, BAB, # of attacks, hit points etc. all increase as levels increase.
But not defense. Can you imagine the imbalance of a magic system where DC went up but not saves?
(Stop drooling casters).
This leads to very weird situations, for example;
In theory a fresh off the boat wizard has the same defensive skill as a level 16 fighter (assuming equal stats and gear). That’s just ridiculous!

D&D uses hit points to try and compensate (i.e. the wiz will die much faster) But this ‘work around’ only leads to more weirdness, like a character being able to take 50 sword blows and live.
(If a human can have 200 hit points, how many does a polar bear get, much less a Giant)
Bulky armor makes you harder to hit? Not harder to hurt!? If you’re combat experience includes playing tag or a snowball fight, you know just how little sense this makes.

The above is what I think is the core balancing problem of DDO. It’s a vicious circle. (In my PnP days we created our own combat system) Hit points are used to compensate for lack of defense which eventually leads to inflated hit points. Leading to special effects being the most practical kill method, leading to immunities / nerfs to restore balance etc.

So, if you were going to build DDO-2;
Do you think a character should be able to learn to defend themselves better as they level?
Do you think it would help reduce the hit point inflation we are seeing now?
Would this make the game to un-D&D?
Thanks

Admittedly I am not sure how to answer, I will say this though:

Does the defensive nature of kevlar in a bullet-proof vest, depend on the skill of the wearer?

As you have already touched upon, "hit-points" are not just "health" according to the game creators, but also how much damage they take.

The ability to avoid or take less damage is out there through various methods.

A couple of thoughts without thinking too much about it.

[Laith]

Do you think it would help reduce the hit point inflation we are seeing now?i'm more worried about AC inflation than HP inflation.

Afterall, it should never be a good decision to completely ignore AC... but in DDO it often is.

[SableShadow]

I’ve never understood why in D&D

D&D is one of several PnP RPGs on the market. It uses a very high level of abstraction compared to some others (e.g. GURPS, the old Chaosium systems, etc).

If you want a game with less abstraction, well, play a game with less abstraction.

[Tenkari_Rozahas]

you mean turn the game into 4e? their defences,m including armor, are affected by half your level, so a level 16 fighter would get +8 to AC plus his gear and whatever.... if you want them to make DDO-2 like 4e, more power to you, but i dont think they should put that much 4e, if any, in regular DDO.

[Kreaper]

Does the defensive nature of kevlar in a bullet-proof vest, depend on the skill of the wearer?



You are looking at it backwards. The kevlar vest merely enhances the defense of the wearer just as armor only enhances a fighters ability. The issue is the figuring of that ability.

[bellack]

I’ve never understood why in D&D defending yourself (AC) doesn’t go up with experience.
All other areas, saves, BAB, # of attacks, hit points etc. all increase as levels increase.
But not defense. Can you imagine the imbalance of a magic system where DC went up but not saves?
(Stop drooling casters).
This leads to very weird situations, for example;
In theory a fresh off the boat wizard has the same defensive skill as a level 16 fighter (assuming equal stats and gear). That’s just ridiculous!

D&D uses hit points to try and compensate (i.e. the wiz will die much faster) But this ‘work around’ only leads to more weirdness, like a character being able to take 50 sword blows and live.
(If a human can have 200 hit points, how many does a polar bear get, much less a Giant)
Bulky armor makes you harder to hit? Not harder to hurt!? If you’re combat experience includes playing tag or a snowball fight, you know just how little sense this makes.

The above is what I think is the core balancing problem of DDO. It’s a vicious circle. (In my PnP days we created our own combat system) Hit points are used to compensate for lack of defense which eventually leads to inflated hit points. Leading to special effects being the most practical kill method, leading to immunities / nerfs to restore balance etc.

So, if you were going to build DDO-2;
Do you think a character should be able to learn to defend themselves better as they level?
Do you think it would help reduce the hit point inflation we are seeing now?
Would this make the game to un-D&D?
Thanks

If they make DDO –2 I would like them to follow the D&D 3.5 rules more than DDO currently does. The AC system is just fine and does not need to go up when you level. AC is open ended anyway. The rule system for D&D 3.5 (and maybe 4.0) is actually balanced and runs smoothly unlike older editions of D&D. If they would just have the monsters/NPC’s as well as Players following the same rules then the game will be balanced. As it stands the Players seem to follow one set of rules and the NPC/Monsters follow another set (but then that seems to be the standard in most MMO’s)

[gfunk]

fighters having increasing DR with levels, so they can defend themselves.

With good equipment and enhancements, it's easy to laugh off/self heal damage from say, the lieutenants in shroud if you are a fighter who has prepped one of them and is actively blocking.

[Laith]

if i recall correctly, the large hit-dice and increased hit points are supposed to represent an increased ability to "roll with the punches" (ie make a lethal attack survivable).

I guess you could say that upon gaining his 16th level, he can now stand there and survive exactly 15 stabs through the head that would kill a level 1, but that's not exactly how i choose to imagine heroic advancement.

I prefer to imagine that he's skilled enough to turn many of those strikes that would kill an inexperienced warrior into glancing blows.

[Aspenor]

barbarians having increasing DR with levels, so they can defend themselves.

With good equipment and enhancements, it's easy to laugh off/self heal damage from say, the lieutenants in shroud if you are a fighter who has prepped one of them and is actively blocking.
fixed.....fighters dont get advancing DR, sorry.

[Slink]

There are some old-school players/characters out there that can.
The problem is too many people running around specced for TWF/THF.

The game and the community forced most to play a certain "role" when it comes to a fighter class.
There are a few out there that stayed true to the cause and at lvl 20 on lamannia with the defender line, arent having problems.

[gfunk]

fixed.....fighters dont get advancing DR, sorry.

sorry, fighters do get advancing DR, at a rate equal to all the other full BAB classes. they would have 10 dr from BAB at level 20.

[totmacher]

most of the inconsistencies were addressed in monte cook's famous product, iron heroes. some of the stuff made it into 4th i believe

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Heroes

is the wiki link. it's a pretty good variant product actually

[Aspenor]

sorry, fighters do get advancing DR, at a rate equal to all the other full BAB classes. they would have 10 dr from BAB at level 20.

lol you mean while SHIELD BLOCKING??!?!

sorry, that doesn't count.

[gfunk]

lol you mean while SHIELD BLOCKING??!?!

sorry, that doesn't count.

well, if you had read my entire earlier post you would have noticed that it said "while actively blocking". And shield blocking is a useful strategy in some situations, so in my view it counts.

[tigerlee]

Armor should be armor, in that reduces damage (or another way of looking at it is, the damage is applied to the armor first.) but does nothing to help you avoid getting hit in the first place.

I just think it's odd (and fixable) that a fighter, as they level, becomes more and more resistant to magic.
(this happens automaticaly with out the need of special feats / gear)
Yet they gain nothing in avoiding a simple melee attack.

[Laith]

I just think it's odd (and fixable) that a fighter, as they level, becomes more and more resistant to magic.
(this happens automaticaly with out the need of special feats / gear)
Yet they gain nothing in avoiding a simple melee attack.hit. points.

At level1, a single swing from a greatsword can kill a fighter.
That exact swing that would have killed a level1 is only about 20% likely to kill a lvl5 fighter, as he has ~5x the HP (give or take, from rolling).

You mean to say that the most logical explanation is that he's able to make a wound 5x less lethal not by skill, but by sheer grit and determination?

Max Payne's got nothing on these guys... that wimp needs pain pills.

edit: barbarians, of course, have even larger hit dice because they combine a warrior's skill with survival via sheer grit and determination ;)

[bandyman1]

Armor should be armor, in that reduces damage (or another way of looking at it is, the damage is applied to the armor first.) but does nothing to help you avoid getting hit in the first place.



But it already does.

That's why PnP has touch AC for attacks where armor wouldn't be absorbing the damage to begin with.

Other than that touch AC, a failed to-hit roll vs. an opponet's AC does not represent not being able to hit him, it means failure to inflict damage with an attack.

[tigerlee]

hit. points.

At level1, a single swing from a greatsword can kill a fighter.
That exact swing that would have killed a level1 is only about 20% likely to kill a lvl5 fighter, as he has ~5x the HP (give or take, from rolling).

You mean to say that the most logical explaination is that he's able to make a wound 5x less lethal is not by skill, but by sheer grit and determination?

Max Payne's got nothing on these guys... that wimp needs pain pills.

The key is "avoid" damage.
Why can't a skilled fighter be harder to hit (there by harder to kill)?
All of the 'hit points aren't really hit points' seems like such an odd way of avoiding the issue which is
As it stands now, the chances of a level 1 avoiding a hit are the same as a level 16.
That just doesn't make sense.

[Laith]

As it stands now, the chances of a level 1 avoiding a hit are the same as a level 16.
That just doesn't make sense.as brandy explained, AC isn't "avoiding a hit" it's "avoiding taking damage from a hit". That abstracts much more than just dodging the swing, just like HP includes much more than just taking the hit.


why the song and dancesong and dance? You were talking about "defending yourself" and trying to imply that AC is the only form of defense, outlined a failed understanding that AC. AC also includes blows that do no damage due to armor, shields, and magic items deflecting it. IE: They still hit, but they didn't do any damage. There is a variant that makes armor provide less AC, but instead makes them grant DR. That's more what you're looking for.

I gave you a different take on what HP represents (instead of "a character being able to take 50 sword blows and live."). I'm sorry you can't accept that the fighter is better able to survive the attack not only because he is tougher, but because he is able to make it impact him less overall (ie. dodge/deflect the blow partially). Your interpretation is more comical, mine more realistic. Neither is "right".

[Vorn]

It seems to me that one of the most glaring difficulties of the 3.5 d20 system is that at higher levels there just isn't enough of a spread. If a mob has a +50 static to hit then an ac below 52 ("1" always misses) is worthless vs that mob, regardless of the lvl of the character.

Various systems have tried to address this either by increasing the spread of variablity by rolling different sort of dice, or by limiting the spread by lessening the amount of modifiers and retaining a d20.


Role Master used percentages but became ROLL Master after a while.

4E addresses by limiting AC...no more +5 lg shields giving +7 to ac, for example, thus creating a smaller spread. Lg shield gives 2 to ac and then might have some extra properties or a once a day power. There is a lvl adjustment to defences as well as various interrupt powers that can mitigate damage to make your 16th lvl person a lot harder to damage than your 1st lvl. BUT, most people on these forums despise 4E.:(

Lots of other folks, far smarter than me, have talked about possible ways to address this.

In the end I don't look for too much 'realism' in a fantasy game. It makes no sense that a character functions at full combat effectiveness when dropped from 500 hp to 1 hp by damage and then is rendered combat ineffective when taking one more hit...but, such is heroic fantasy!!
:)

[Kalanth]

I think WoTC had this same thought when they designed 4th edition. Now defense (AC, Fort, Ref, Will) all go up as you level. Basically you add your equipement's defense bonus, the enchantment bonus, your ability bonus (unless wearing heavy armor), and 1/2 your current level (up to 15, since lvl 30 is the new cap).

And you know what I have noticed? Without really digging into it with much detail, and with (from what I can tell) the removal of stat enhancing items, the AC's don't really get all that much higher in 4th than in 3rd.

Assuming a few things you could have (without my books):

Dex 26 (Start 18 +2 lvl 4 & 8 +1 lvl 11 +2 lvl 14 & 18, +1 lvl 21 +2 lvl 24 & 28)

Special Material Enchanted Light Armor:
+9 Base +6 Enchantment

Heavy Shield:
+2

Half Level:
+15

Base AC:
10

All this roughly translates to a 50 AC at level 30 in 4th edition. In 3.5 this was not a difficult thing to pull off with the right moves (stat enchancing items, dodge bonuses, monk levels, etc). Really, increasing the AC as you level, from my experience, has result in an even more hard and fast, fixed number that reduces some of the interest in the AC builds. Honestly, I like the 3.5 AC system more because of the various ways you can stack and build toward those high numbers.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

It seems to me that one of the most glaring difficulties of the 3.5 d20 system is that at higher levels there just isn't enough of a spread. If a mob has a +50 static to hit then an ac below 52 ("1" always misses) is worthless vs that mob, regardless of the lvl of the character.

That's less of a flaw of the D20 system and more a flaw of DDO that has resulted in inflated to hit counts.

[SableShadow]

Really, the "D&D combat isn't realistic" debate has been going on longer than a lot of our players have been alive. If you don't like the level of abstraction, then, well, you don't like the level of abstraction.

[ahpook]

The key is "avoid" damage.
Why can't a skilled fighter be harder to hit (there by harder to kill)?
All of the 'hit points aren't really hit points' seems like such an odd way of avoiding the issue which is
As it stands now, the chances of a level 1 avoiding a hit are the same as a level 16.
That just doesn't make sense.

Agreed. The HP as reflection of turning lethal blows into glancing blows doesn't quite cut it. Imagine a 1st level fighter with 10 HP taking a 10 HP damage: they need a CLW to heal up while while a 16th level fighter (160 HP) taking 10 such hits (turning them into glancing blows), needs 10 CLW to recover. So dead and bleeding out takes a CLW to bounce back but 10 scratches takes 10 CLW? Makes little sense.

At some point however you have to accept that D&D is a game built on simplifications designed to make it easy to play. Those simplifications don't always make sense just a chess does not accurately reflect a battle. Accept it or move on.

[tigerlee]

as brandy explained, AC isn't "avoiding a hit" it's "avoiding taking damage from a hit". That abstracts much more than just dodging the swing, just like HP includes much more than just taking the hit.

Why can't a skilled fighter be better at avoiding being hit than a level 1?

I mean, side step, duck, parry, na-na you missed

Not reduce the damage.
Not 'it's only a flesh wound'

I mean missed.

[Vorn]

That's less of a flaw of the D20 system and more a flaw of DDO that has resulted in inflated to hit counts.

Could be...we noticed it in epic pnp... though that game tended to be all about win initiative and gank the caster before s/he killed you!:)

Cinematic/Monty Haul campaigns = lots of bonuses. Lots of bonuses means the importance of the d20 roll is diminished. That's all I was getting at.

[bandyman1]

Why can't a skilled fighter be better at avoiding being hit than a level 1?

I mean, side step, duck, parry, na-na you missed

Not reduce the damage.
Not 'it's only a flesh wound'

I mean missed.

He can.

Defensive fighting, and expertise ;)

Not to mention better gear.

[SableShadow]

Why can't a skilled fighter be better at avoiding being hit than a level 1?

I mean, side step, duck, parry, na-na you missed

Not reduce the damage.
Not 'it's only a flesh wound'

I mean missed.

If you own a copy of 1st or 2nd edition, they've got a whole paragraph written up on hitpoints that says, in effect, part of hit points is "side step, duck, parry, na-na you missed".

[Vorn]

If you own a copy of 1st or 2nd edition, they've got a whole paragraph written up on hitpoints that says, in effect, part of hit points is "side step, duck, parry, na-na you missed".

EDIT: Oooooh...I was gonna say that!
:p

[Laith]

Why can't a skilled fighter be better at avoiding being hit than a level 1?

I mean, side step, duck, parry, na-na you missed

Not reduce the damage.
Not 'it's only a flesh wound'

I mean missed.ok, i'll give you 2 example since you gave me one.

Lvl 1 fighter vs ogre:

fighter: en garde!
<ogre swings and does 20 damage, killing fighter and taking off his head.>
ogre: grunt.

Lvl 20 fighter vs ogre:

fighter: en garde!
<ogre swings and does 20 damage. Since the fighter has 300 HP, he is hardly phased or even scratched. Guess what it didn't do? Take off his head. He's a good fighter and partially dodged/deflected the swing.>
<fight continues.>

No, ogre's sword didn't get stuck in the fighter's extremely tough neck either.

[SableShadow]

EDIT: Oooooh...I was gonna say that!
:p

Great minds! :)

[Laith]

If you own a copy of 1st or 2nd edition, they've got a whole paragraph written up on hitpoints that says, in effect, part of hit points is "side step, duck, parry, na-na you missed".

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/injuryandDeath.htm

Hit points mean two things in the game world: the ability to take physical punishment and keep going, and the ability to turn a serious blow into a less serious one.

[ahpook]

If you own a copy of 1st or 2nd edition, they've got a whole paragraph written up on hitpoints that says, in effect, part of hit points is "side step, duck, parry, na-na you missed".

They can write that in the text, but then why do you need to be cured after you "side step, duck, parry" an attack? It still makes no sense in context of all the game mechanics.

[SableShadow]

They can write that in the text, but then why do you need to be cured after you "side step, duck, parry" an attack? It still makes no sense in context of all the game mechanics.

It's an abstraction. The map is not the terrain, but it's darn handy.

Honestly, I'm not that sold on hitpoints myself, but after trying to do large battles in GURPS/Rolemaster/Chaosium systems and having to deal with the attendant strike/parry/active defense/passive defense/hit location/active resistance/passive resistance/damage of those systems....I've come to appreciate "hit points" a lot more. :)

[Laith]

They can write that in the text, but then why do you need to be cured after you "side step, duck, parry" an attack? It still makes no sense in context of all the game mechanics.I continue to think that the star wars RPG did it better with the Vitality/Wounds system.

Since you can't go around surviving a dozen light saber hits, they use Vitality to determine your ability to dodge/weave/etc. Damage usually goes to Vitality, and Vitality is gained from leveling like HP.

When you run out of vitality (or get critted), damage goes to your Wound points (WP = your Con). Wound points represent actual damage, and when those are gone you die.

In D&D, i figure the HP system generally represents the myriad of scratches and small knocks you'd endure until that last one that actually takes you down. They represent you being worn down, and healing represents curing general fatigue as well as actual mending. The last hit though... that one is always a solid, definitive hit in my mind. If it outright kills them, you have free licence to get fancy with the description.

edit:
what i find funny about these sort of abstractions is that they pose the player with 2 choices: you can either complain about how unrealistic they are and demand change, or you can find an explanation of the system that makes sense in your mind and run with it. Again, neither choice is truly wrong. All that matters is that you find a setup that works for you.

My explanation fails when you consider healing. Afterall, the same Cure Light spell that will fill a level1 character will be nearly useless on a level20 character. That implies that the fighter is indeed able to withstand more grievous wounds or can get exponentially MORE worn out and little to no dodging/weaving/etc occurred. Eh, no abstraction is perfect. That's why we have them in the first place: the real thing is hard to use.

[tigerlee]

It's an abstraction. The map is not the terrain, but it's darn handy.

Honestly, I'm not that sold on hitpoints myself, but after trying to do large battles in GURPS/Rolemaster/Chaosium systems and having to deal with the attendant strike/parry/active defense/passive defense/hit location/active resistance/passive resistance/damage of those systems....I've come to appreciate "hit points" a lot more. :)

It's the same number of rolls,
To hit (yes or no, not sort of)
If yes roll damage (take armor damage reduction off at this step)

[tigerlee]

ok, i'll give you 2 example since you gave me one.

Lvl 1 fighter vs ogre:

fighter: en garde!
<ogre swings and does 20 damage, killing fighter and taking off his head.>
ogre: grunt.

Lvl 20 fighter vs ogre:

fighter: en garde!
<ogre swings and does 20 damage. Since the fighter has 300 HP, he is hardly phased or even scratched. Guess what it didn't do? Take off his head. He's a good fighter and partially dodged/deflected the swing.>
<fight continues.>

No, ogre's sword didn't get stuck in the fighter's extremely tough neck either.

Your Lvl 20 fighter will be dead, sooner or later he'll run out of hit points.
I would prefer a fighter that could keep going because he doesn't get hit.

[Laith]

It's the same number of rolls,
To hit (yes or no, not sort of)
If yes roll damage (take armor damage reduction off at this step)try this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/armorAsDamageReduction.htm)

[SableShadow]

It's the same number of rolls,
To hit (yes or no, not sort of)
If yes roll damage (take armor damage reduction off at this step)

Sure, "that's what computers are for". DDO is full of abstractions that just don't make sense when you've got a computer handling the load compared to your brain, a legal pad, and a pencil...because it's designed to model, as near as possible, PnP. With all its attendant warts.

If you want to move armor to DR instead of AC, I can deal with that...so long as accuracy bonus moves to dex instead of str.

[Vorn]

Your Lvl 20 fighter will be dead, sooner or later he'll run out of hit points.
I would prefer a fighter that could keep going because he doesn't get hit.

I think the only way to to do that would be to implement some sort of active defense roll which Runequest or some other game I once played had--it's a dice roll vs. dice roll with modifiers all over the place. Then assuming a hit, finding out where the hit landed, then resolving the hit and applying appropriate penalties...took forever, especially with lots of mobs, pc's, hirelings, henchmen,....

Interesting, but too complicated for me (who after years of Rolemaster decided the old Wizard/Melee Steve Jackson system looked pretty darn good) and probably too complicated to implement into our game engine at this point.

I liked what Laith said about dealing with the abstraction. Not sure you're going to get a better explanation, but hope you enjoy the converstaion.

[Laith]

Your Lvl 20 fighter will be dead, sooner or later he'll run out of hit points.
I would prefer a fighter that could keep going because he doesn't get hit.agreed, but your solution to add AC based on level combined with your understanding of HP implies turning the system completely around.

If AC is the only means to imply dodging/deflecting a blow (via skill or otherwise):

1. then HP shouldn't increase by level since training doesn't make one better at surviving a sword in the chest.
2. If HP doesn't increase by level, that means to survive in a fight means that every swing (save one or two if you're lucky) must miss you.

So any fight that lasts a long time involves rounds upon rounds of people shouting
"I roll a X!"
"miss!"
back and fourth.

Fights that don't involve lots of misses involve people dying very very suddenly.
It'd be more realistic, but it would basically be like if everyone walked into a fight with a vorpal:

dozens of
"not a 20"
followed by
"OMG 20! IN YOUR FACE, I OWNED YOU!"
followed by
"CALM DOWN, YOU JUST GOT LUCKY... TARD"


edit:
of course, the whole system could be slightly more fun when you give people enough HP to absorb a few hits. Magic items and spells have to be overhauled though.

Basically what i'm saying is that you are critically misunderstanding HP, and for your understanding to work, you'd have to redo all the rules. BTW: i did this sort of rework long ago to try to make a modern d20 game before one was out. was pretty fun, but the system was broke as hell.

[Aspenor]

There are active defense variants in DND, which include rolling an opposed d20 using your armor class as the bonus versus a d20 + attack bonus of the attacker.

I don't really think DDO could adopt this variant now that we have what we have as far as the combat mechanics go.

Suffice to say, HP and AC are abstractions, and they are not meant to be translated directly to "hit, miss, physical damage, etc."

[tigerlee]

Sure, "that's what computers are for". DDO is full of abstractions that just don't make sense when you've got a computer handling the load compared to your brain, a legal pad, and a pencil...because it's designed to model, as near as possible, PnP. With all its attendant warts.

If you want to move armor to DR instead of AC, I can deal with that...so long as accuracy bonus moves to dex instead of str.

As anyone who has tried to hit a ball with accuracy and power knows.
They are two very differant things.
I agree, in D&D terms Dex, experiance, even Int. should affect 'to hit'.
Where Str major affect would be on damage.

I don't think PnP will ever change, (to well entrenched)
But I would like to see DDO address this, if not in this version, the next.
I think it would reduce a lot of balancing issues that come from inflated hit points (that aren't really hit points)
Because all thought I understand abstractions, it's not a computers strong suit.

[SableShadow]

agreed, but your solution to add AC based on level combined with your understanding of HP implies turning the system completely around.


If you look at StarFleet Command I and II (not the SFC III <unpleasant word> done to appease Paramount), they made a "2 for 1" change in the damage each ship could absorb...it was otherwise a complete port, with modifications for realtime play, of StarFleet Battles.

The change in damage absorption was exactly for this reason...a vet SFB player could handle the win/lose knife edge, because they were use to it...the newbie? Not so much. And in either case, the battles got strung out a little, which was fun.

[Aspenor]

As anyone who has tried to hit a ball with accuracy and power knows.
They are two very differant things.
I agree, in D&D terms Dex, experiance, even Int. should affect 'to hit'.
Where Str major affect would be on damage.

I don't think PnP will ever change, (to well entrenched)
But I would like to see DDO address this, if not in this version, the next.
I think it would reduce a lot of balancing issues that come from inflated hit points (that aren't really hit points)
Because all thought I understand abstractions, it's not a computers strong suit.

It's one of the best systems for fantasy gaming out there, IMHO. I get that you want some more "realism," but I learned a long time ago that realism has no place in a fantasy game. How would any fighter ever live through a lightning bolt to the chest? How would a rogue evade a fireball that explodes in a 20 ft radius area, without moving, and without cover of some kind to hide behind?

It's best to just keep the mechanics simple, not muck it up with "realism."

[tigerlee]

agreed, but your solution to add AC based on level combined with your understanding of HP implies turning the system completely around.

If AC is the only means to imply dodging/deflecting a blow (via skill or otherwise):

1. then HP shouldn't increase by level since training doesn't make one better at surviving a sword in the chest.
2. If HP doesn't increase by level, that means to survive in a fight means that every swing (save one or two if you're lucky) must miss you.

So any fight that lasts a long time involves rounds upon rounds of people shouting
"I roll a X!"
"miss!"
back and fourth.

Fights that don't involve lots of misses involve people dying very very suddenly.
It'd be more realistic, but it would basically be like if everyone walked into a fight with a vorpal:

dozens of
"not a 20"
followed by
"OMG 20! IN YOUR FACE, I OWNED YOU!"
followed by
"CALM DOWN, YOU JUST GOT LUCKY... TARD"

A balanced approch might be in order.
I'm not suggesting that everyone have the same hit points.
But MOB's with X,000 HP, flesh and blood toons that are squishie at <250
And your right don't want to turn the game in to a **** shoot.
However some defense just seems logical, esply at higher levels after equipment has topped out.
There must be a middle ground. Because now in theory at BAB 9 you only miss on a 1.
no matter if your attacking a 1, 10, or level 20 char. (not counting gear)

[Laith]

A balanced approch might be in order.
I'm not suggesting that everyone have the same hit points.
But MOB's with X,000 HP, flesh and blood toons that are squishie at <250right, i edited it to mention that if you tweak the rules, it could work: but it'd be a different game completely.


However some defense just seems logical, esply at higher levels after equipment has topped out.and what we're saying is that defense is given: in the form of HP. If you're talking DDO: the ability to equip high-end items, enhancements, and feats is also something earned by experience and skill.



There must be a middle ground. Because now in theory at BAB 9 you only miss on a 1.
no matter if your attacking a 1, 10, or level 20 char. (not counting gear)Welcome to D&D: the game that proved that a normal house cat is the bane of a level 1 caster.

That statement seems to forget that reaching level9 is supposed to be a ridiculously rare accomplishment. Might be easy to forget if all you've played is DDO.

It also overlooks that a level1 naked commoner with a weapon he's not even proficient with has a 5% chance to do damage to a fully decked level20 fighter, which equals the level20's chance to not do damage. ;)

[Nonan]

HP's are just a way for the game to say, "I can handle this fight in a particular way." I always kind of look at it as a boxing match. A fighter takes a bunch of punches and gets worn down. Then, his opponent hits him with a good one and the fighter goes down. To just pare it down to a sword swing takes it too literally. It also makes a ton on sense that a fighter with more experience can take more "damage" than a lower level.

The main problem with any system is how to put the fanatsy in it. If the uber toon was a 2nd level fighter some of us would be disaapointed. It seems a lot cooler to say I am a 16th level Wizard vs a 2nd level fighter. Other MMO's took it to the extreme and give players 70 levels to play with.

The DDO we play is based on the D&D PnP game. Noticed I said based, because in pen and paper, you have to do things like travel to a spot, roll the dice a few times, move your miniature, ready spells,etc. One fight could take between several minutes to an hour depending on the complexity of the fight. In DDO, you run to a Quest, kill, kill, kill, hit a rest shrine and go again. Its D&D on crack. In one hour, you could have Hound, Reaver and be on Shroud 3.

I for one would like to see the game slow down a bit. Do some crafting (ala EQ or WoW) have to actually spend time preparing spells or doing more mundane type things. Level at a slower pace. Although I love DDO and its much superior combat engine and its D&D model, it is more like an arcade game than PnP.

[SableShadow]

I think it would reduce a lot of balancing issues that come from inflated hit points (that aren't really hit points)

DnD isn't a particularly balanced game system; it's only the live DM that makes it so, something we lack in DDO. It tries, but it isn't, not really. If you move from armor as AC to armor as DR and reduce hitpoints accordingly, I really don't think you've done anything but move the critical point.

You'd get more bang for the buck buy giving Int a bonus for critical hits, Dex a bonus for accuracy, Con a bonus to DR, etc etc etc...flatten out the peaks in the stats people select and in so doing reduce the max portion of the min/max equation.


Because all thought I understand abstractions, it's not a computers strong suit.

A computer doesn't make it's own abstractions well, yes...it's very literal. I don't think I'm understanding the subtext of what you're saying, though.

[Kylstrem]

I for one would like to see the game slow down a bit. Do some crafting (ala EQ or WoW) have to actually spend time preparing spells or doing more mundane type things.

Nothing is stopping you from finding a group of like-minded individuals and forming a guild.

When you hit a shrine, you actually sit there for 8 hours and role-play memorizing your spells after you rest.
:)

[Nonan]

I never said Real Time.. :) Hell I am still a level 0 Cook, at least thats what my wife tells me.

[Mr_Ed7]

But it already does.

That's why PnP has touch AC for attacks where armor wouldn't be absorbing the damage to begin with.

Other than that touch AC, a failed to-hit roll vs. an opponet's AC does not represent not being able to hit him, it means failure to inflict damage with an attack.

I like this description.

[baddax]

Hit points include dodgeing and deflecting blows and such. The Constitution bonus is the part that represents Actual Physical damage.

[GlassCannon]

Admittedly I am not sure how to answer, I will say this though:

Does the defensive nature of kevlar in a bullet-proof vest, depend on the skill of the wearer?

As you have already touched upon, "hit-points" are not just "health" according to the game creators, but also how much damage they take.

The ability to avoid or take less damage is out there through various methods.

A couple of thoughts without thinking too much about it.

Does a swordsman NEVER learn to Parry? Does he never improve at parrying, at dodging, at reading the flow of his opponent's movements?

Saying that a Fighter is solely protected by his armor is sheer idiocy, but it has been done for ages. In short, the original THAC0 system was clearly designed to completely abandon armor at later levels, almost guaranteeing dead characters, and replayed campaigns.

I concur that a Weapon Master should get an Experience AC Bonus to using his specialized weapon(in excess of a mere 2 or 3), and a bonus to using a Shield as well(Shield Deflection, Improved Deflection, Greater Deflection, etc, as granted feats). This would balance out the rather excessively misused Monk Wisdom AC bonus(the ability to read the flow of combat and use Unarmed skills and Dodge skills to nullify enemy attacks), and other misplaced or overused AC bonus alternatives that seem to make little to no sense(like Barkskin... why doesn't it harden to Steelskin later on? That would make sense AC-wise)...

Then again Logic + This game = meltdown. Logic and Common Sense are the bane of D&D and advocates of the D&D system everywhere.

As for Damage Reduction, this game does not implement that properly either... and it doesn't make sense that a set of Fullplate does absolutely nothing to stop a sword or pike, whereas being naked yields the same defense, should the enemy to-hit be above the potential AC for wearing said fullplate. Fullplate does not add HP either. It is only a Hit/Miss Damage Mitigation Option.

[GlassCannon]

Hit points include dodgeing and deflecting blows and such. The Constitution bonus is the part that represents Actual Physical damage.

That makes no sense and here's why: A sorc 3 dies naked after taking the same punishment a Barbarian 2 wearing Mithral Full Plate and a Mithral Tower Shield takes.

Use your Common Sense to figure that one out. A pointy stick should not kill the barbarian, but it does.

For those NumberFiends out there, the Sorc has Toughness, the barb does not. The sorc is NUDE, the barb is not.

[GlassCannon]

But it already does.

That's why PnP has touch AC for attacks where armor wouldn't be absorbing the damage to begin with.

Other than that touch AC, a failed to-hit roll vs. an opponet's AC does not represent not being able to hit him, it means failure to inflict damage with an attack.


So it either hits the armor(indestructible) or hits the person? How then does a Fighter wearing full plate get the same armor class that a naked Ranger does at low levels? They both take the same damage, and the Fighter ought have the same or comparable skill at blocking and parrying that the Ranger does. Nonetheless, the system yet again fails to make sense, as no Partial Armor-Based Damage Reduction is implemented. The opponent that strikes and pierces the armor to a small degree still inflicts the same grievous wound that it would against a naked foe with no protection whatsoever to even slow down the attack.

[bandyman1]

If a naked ranger has the same AC as a fighter in fullplate ( which I'd love to see in a PnP game BTW ), it's because he maxed out Dex. He's completely dodging blows that the fighter is depending on his armor and shield to take the burnt of. Which is also why his touch AC would be far, far superior.

It's an abstract system. That's worked ( in some form ) since the mid 70s.

You want more realism??? You're more than welcome to try Rolemaster; Be my guest. Far more realistic. Of course, don't expect to get much done in a session where each to-hit roll is composed of about 9-10 or more variables before the first die is ever cast.

[eonfreon]

So it either hits the armor(indestructible) or hits the person? How then does a Fighter wearing full plate get the same armor class that a naked Ranger does at low levels? They both take the same damage, and the Fighter ought have the same or comparable skill at blocking and parrying that the Ranger does. Nonetheless, the system yet again fails to make sense, as no Partial Armor-Based Damage Reduction is implemented. The opponent that strikes and pierces the armor to a small degree still inflicts the same grievous wound that it would against a naked foe with no protection whatsoever to even slow down the attack.

Because Armor Class does NOT automatically equal ARMOR.

It's an abstraction.

AC combined with Hit Points equals your automatic "defensive" options. Saves too.

For a Ranger to have the same AC as a Fullplate Fighter he would have to max out Dex and have magical items.

This is just too general an example.

No, the Fighter and Ranger do not always have to have comparable skills.

Did either one take CE? Did either one take a Monk Splash? Shield Mastery Feats? Armor Mastery Feats?

And if you want to use 2 Vanilla characters, 1 Fighter, 1 Ranger:

The Ranger might have equal or better AC, but the Fighter should generally have more hit points.

So, in their own different ways, they do have "comparable" defenses.

Remember AC AND HP are combined to equal your "survivability" in an abstract way.

And please, as far as "Healing" and "Wounds", remember we don't know what CLW really is. I've never seen Real Magic so I have to trust that it would function like it does in DDO ;).

I never imagined it just as closing wounds and stopping bleeding but also restoring vitality and strength to the character, thus rejuvenating him.

It's just a level of abstraction. Some like it, some don't.

If someone has a better method, by all means present it.

But it's rather useless to "argue" against the "logic" of the system.

[Samadhi]

It's an abstraction. The map is not the terrain

Nice reference

[GlassCannon]

This is an abstraction similar to the AC and DR system...
http://www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/%7Esmschnei/abstract.jpg

I hope Google can provide something abstract enough to suit the abstraction of combat that DDO uses. :)


I'm not completely against the DDO combat system, I just really like pointing out that the D&D combat system makes next to zero sense, and could really use an update. It's time to edit some books, IMHO.

[eonfreon]

LOL.

Well then, get started creating a realistic combat system. post-haste.

[baddax]

haste.