Melee (Tempest) Caster With Evasion That Really Works (Finally)

[Draiden]

Okay, after the 4th attempt and the addition of the Monk class into DDO I finally got it to work. Hold your laughs for just a few minutes to give it a once-over. After that, fire away and (hopefully) some of you will add some constructive critiques to the build concept. First, I know a WF would obviously complete the synergy... it's just a role-playing hangup I have. Final preface, all the stat items listed under the inventory window are +6's, just to clarify.

Almost forgot to mention, on the skills tab these are base numbers with no items or spells enhancing them at all.
http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii255/jsmith991/Draydin-2.jpg (Image has been adjusted, just make sure you click on it to enlarge)

In conclusion, I have a LOT of items to gather still for this build:

As a dual-wielding khopesh user, I haven't even started the GS weapons (one is a radiance with +4 insight, the other the lightning II) or the 2 GS wearable items (concordant opp boots with +45 HP and Prot +5, and the spell point goggles with Wisdom+6). These 2 clothing items will free up 2 inv slots for some other raid loot (below).

After these items are slowly piecing together, the Chattering Ring, Titan Belt (to free up a slot) and Icy Rainments (with Alchemical Bonus) are being hunted so the AC will jump quite a bit (this will bring the total increase with the khopesh mentioned above will add another +12 pts). I'm also still trying to track down some AC8 Bracers (bringing the increase to +13 pts).

Finally, I still haven't even eaten a single +2 tome or better. With +3 Dex and Wis tomes, my AC increase is now +15 pts for a grand total of 66 self-buffed. With a Bard's AC song, Resitation and a Barkskin +5 that number will be a grand total of 74. Strength will be a 32, I'll gain another +16 HP and SP's will increase with these respective tomes.

This build is a ton of fun and can perform many roles in a party. The dps is heavy, and Tenser's (scrolls) makes even the newest and highest level content fun on elite. Not having to ask for any buffs is a dream, too. I could only imagine a party of 12 of these builds in the shroud. The plan for the future is to continue leveling in Wiz, giving access to tons of fantastic spells, another MM feat (probably Heighten, although somebody suggested Quicken) and I can finally take Greater Two Weapon Fighting at lvl 18.

Critique away!

[Impaqt]

I cant read anything in that tiny screenshot/image collage.

[Lithic]

I cant read anything in that tiny screenshot/image collage.

Same. Don't be lazy, type out classes, stats, item config, etc. like normal builds do. Its much clearer, and you have room to put any comments (for example, item switching)

[Draiden]

...which is why I said I was fixing the image...

[TreknaQudane]

...which is why I said I was fixing the image...

Methinks you're missing the point.

You may have SS's of everything on that link, but that doesn't adequately explain form or function, only the outer shell of what makes a character.

[Draiden]

Methinks you're missing the point.

You may have SS's of everything on that link, but that doesn't adequately explain form or function, only the outer shell of what makes a character.

So... you don't know what to look for on a good melee's character sheet? Or you don't know what the number under Armor Class implicates? Basically you can't look at a characters vital stats, feats, skills, etc. and tell me what strengths or weaknesses the character has? I'm going to fix the image and then you can fire any questions you have.

Anyways, Photobucket is shrinking the bajesus out of my image. Anybody have a good suggestion for another photo web hosting site that allows larger images?

[Draiden]

I fixed the image. It's a lot more readable now, but still not the original size.

[tc12]

So... you don't know what to look for on a good melee's character sheet? Or you don't know...

To answer your question as you've answered others here: "So... don't you know how to summarize your build in a text format? Or you don't know...?"

LOL

You've got quite an attitude. You ask for help here but then insult the people who would help if you weren't the one makng it difficult? Drop the attitude and the insistance that it must be done your way and you might actually get some decent advice on your build.

[Draiden]

To answer your question as you've answered others here: "So... don't you know how to summarize your build in a text format? Or you don't know...?"

LOL

You've got quite an attitude. You ask for help here but then insult the people who would help if you weren't the one makng it difficult? Drop the attitude and the insistance that it must be done your way and you might actually get some decent advice on your build.

Actually, I could've just typed it out in text format. I was accused of laziness for actually taking the time to take screen shots, cut the borders all neat-like and make a pretty solid looking image that shows the vitals on screen. lol. Yeah, the attitude in the forums (like calling ppl lazy after they put forth a lot of effort on a product) gets to me sometimes.

Now let's get away from the method I used to relay the information and just dissimenate the product. Geez.

[maddmatt70]

Actually, I could've just typed it out in text format. I was accused of laziness for actually taking the time to take screen shots, cut the borders all neat-like and make a pretty solid looking image that shows the vitals on screen. lol. Yeah, the attitude in the forums (like calling ppl lazy after they put forth a lot of effort on a product) gets to me sometimes.

Now let's get away from the method I used to relay the information and just dissimenate the product. Geez.

I like this better then just about every other format. The only thing that would be helpful is a list of the feats. Tough to read the feats you selected as presented.

I have one major comment on your build. Why not warforged.. grrr.. Self healing just rules..

I would like to make a similiar build 12 wiz 6 ranger 2 monk at some point if I could get a new character slot. There are a few different things that I am debating. One is to dump ac or not. You chose not to dump ac due to your wis as an 11. The primary advantage of this is pale master prestige enhancement will likely add to natural armor and with the shield spell, a nice wisdom and dex getting a nice ac is feasible. The negatives is less hp (one less toughness feat for CE and less con) and perhaps slightly less intelligence. The second issue is spell points. Will 1200 sp be enough? I would like to have close to 1400 at level 20, but not sure if you will get there..

[Draiden]

I like this better then just about every other format. The only thing that would be helpful is a list of the feats. Tough to read the feats you selected as presented.

Thank you. lol. And I'll look into fixing the feat list somehow.


I have one major comment on your build. Why not warforged.. grrr.. Self healing just rules..

I know, and you have no idea how many times my guildies have said the same thing. I am positive that the build would be complete as a WF... almost. One thing about Humans is the enhancements that give +1 to 2 different stats. For a build that is tight on stat points, that makes a solid difference at endgame. Finally... I just have that hangup on WF. Just can't do the robot thing in DDO. Lame, I know.


I would like to make a similiar build 12 wiz 6 ranger 2 monk at some point if I could get a new character slot. There are a few different things that I am debating. One is to dump ac or not. You chose not to dump ac due to your wis as an 11. The primary advantage of this is pale master prestige enhancement will likely add to natural armor and with the shield spell, a nice wisdom and dex getting a nice ac is feasible. The negatives is less hp (one less toughness feat for CE and less con) and perhaps slightly less intelligence. The second issue is spell points. Will 1200 sp be enough? I would like to have close to 1400 at level 20, but not sure if you will get there..

I strongly recommend trying it... when you get the slot. On the AC/Wisdom, you may have misread the small text (sorry again the image wasn't 100% sized). I actually started it at 14. That was a carefully derived number accounting for as much AC as possible, SP's, Saves, etc. while still saving enough for other vital areas. I feel great about the balance. As for SP's... definitely. I have yet to hit an SP issue, and I still haven't picked up my Torque or made my Concordant Opp item. I was also considering making a couple of Concordant Opp khopeshes for when I cast my last round of buffs and I AM looking at an SP issue. Regardless, I'll be near 1200 when I get all my stuff made/pulled (SP goggles, +3 int tome and +3 wisdom tome), and that will definitely be plenty.

[ariel7]

This is much like "Avalanche - Jorasco Special Forces" but wizard8 instead of cleric. Will mirror that build even more strongly if you go wf. That said, I have lots of things I like about the build but a few questions.

What is your unbuffed to hit?
Is this mostly for soloing?
If so would paladin possibly be better than monk for saves?
If no mostly guild running? Some won't think you fill a role possibly is why I ask.
Levels 17-20 all or at least 3/4 wizard I assume?

Since dcs and sps are pretty low it seems it would be very difficult to instakill or nuke fir primary damage and as a non wf the self healing isn't a factor...so why not take the minimum levels of wizard to scroll/wand/cast your buffs? Get more melée abilities from more ranger. If you can get 7 ranger, just one more level maybe drop monk. Still have evasion and can wear kds. Personally I am thinking wizard9ranger11. Or ranger9/paladin2 as possibilities. Maybe bard could be there for the buffing or even great umd. I like it forbeing different and dynamic but I wonder what it's best use is. As in...melée with buffs but low bab. Nice bards rangers clerics sorcs wizzes pallies etc can buff you and better possibly without having to take away from the job at hand...melée. Just some ideas

Using 5 inventory for ability stats is rough. I really think tumbleweed is important here +2 to hit is a nice bonus here. Maybe try really hard for +6 x on your dt robes.

[Xyfiel]

I like this better then just about every other format. The only thing that would be helpful is a list of the feats. Tough to read the feats you selected as presented.

I have one major comment on your build. Why not warforged.. grrr.. Self healing just rules..

I would like to make a similiar build 12 wiz 6 ranger 2 monk at some point if I could get a new character slot. There are a few different things that I am debating. One is to dump ac or not. You chose not to dump ac due to your wis as an 11. The primary advantage of this is pale master prestige enhancement will likely add to natural armor and with the shield spell, a nice wisdom and dex getting a nice ac is feasible. The negatives is less hp (one less toughness feat for CE and less con) and perhaps slightly less intelligence. The second issue is spell points. Will 1200 sp be enough? I would like to have close to 1400 at level 20, but not sure if you will get there..

This build is a rework I did of my main 3rogue/13wizard. He is at level 2 waiting on pale master info. We know 6ranger/2monk is great, and 12 of anything on that is a decent character. I would use spell buffs and tensers myself, which I do on my main already. I would lose my UMD, trapsmithing, and some nuking for more dps. Of course since there isn't a real arcane trickster, thinking of going 15wizard/4rogue/1fighter so I can get gtwf at 20 on my main, and leave option for 9th level spells if we get over 20.

[captain1z]

Im sure you have fun playing it and its very different but I myself have trouble running a character that becomes unstable in the face of a beholder, dispel, or mordinkanens disjunction, or one who is at the mercy of timers. At that point you'll need to spend a lot of time rebuffing in order to be able to perform again. What do you do for situations like those?

[Monkey_Archer]

What worries me about this build is that 10 enchanted bonus to strength....
A 26 strength is a bit low even for a full BAB character.

I just posted a similar build here (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=180932)
I have a 30 unbuffed strength atm with a +1 tome and a 12BAB, and still have some trouble hitting stuff unbuffed.... and frequently have to turn power attack off.

[Riorik]

I do agree it is an interesting approach taken to presenting the character...actually, informative but still odd.

What the others mean is, we need to see how you did it without having to piece it together ourselves.

Take, for example, your feat selections. First thing we have to do is read your list, pick out what comes standard/not -- notice your race to see how many you get at all, then figure out what you can buy first/second/third/etc....what if it doesn't work in some orders? What if we forget something.

Basically, although you gave an image, ANYBODY else wanting to duplicate it is going to have to MAKE A LIST. Exactly what you didn't do.

Just trying to point out that despite your intentions, you made it harder to do this...and as a result, I'd expect a lot of players aren't even going to look twice at your material...I didn't bother to figure out your feat selections, for example.

[Draiden]

What is your unbuffed to hit?
Completely unbuffed and unarmed, 20.


Is this mostly for soloing?
If so would paladin possibly be better than monk for saves?
If no mostly guild running? Some won't think you fill a role possibly is why I ask.
No, although occasional soloing on this build is a blast, I mostly run in groups and am presently concentrating a lot on the shroud for the 96 larges I'm rounding up for the necessary items. The Pally/Sorc version of this build was attempts #2 and 3 for the whole concept. While the saves were high, the feat department was like todays economy. I've actually been doing a lot of pug'ing, and have so far not found a single group that scoffed at the character or a leader who declined my join request because they didn't understand the build. In fact, most people have actually shown a measure of respect for what the character can do. At some point, however, I do expect to run into people who are closed minded about the concept.


Levels 17-20 all or at least 3/4 wizard I assume?
The jury's still out on that. Pretty sure I'm going all wizard, unless I find a reason to do 1 more lvl of monk or ranger.


Since dcs and sps are pretty low it seems it would be very difficult to instakill or nuke fir primary damage and as a non wf the self healing isn't a factor...so why not take the minimum levels of wizard to scroll/wand/cast your buffs?
Actually, the SP's are already plentiful, and I will have go from the 770 I have now to almost exactly 1,000 when my shroud item for sp's is finished and I get +3 WIS/INT tomes. Not to mention wearing the Torque and a Concordant Opp item for a melee will equate to a lot more sp's. I'm also toying with the idea of making a pair of Concordant Opp Khopeshes just to see how many sp's a guy could really get from all of that.


Get more melée abilities from more ranger. If you can get 7 ranger, just one more level maybe drop monk. Still have evasion and can wear kds.
The KDS will actually drop this AC. The best item is the Icy Rainments with Alchemical bonus and Armor +8 Bracers. The total to AC would be +13 and a full DEX bonus.


Personally I am thinking wizard9ranger11. Or ranger9/paladin2 as possibilities. Maybe bard could be there for the buffing or even great umd. I like it forbeing different and dynamic but I wonder what it's best use is. As in...melée with buffs but low bab. Nice bards rangers clerics sorcs wizzes pallies etc can buff you and better possibly without having to take away from the job at hand...melée. Just some ideas
Thank you for throwing out your ideas. I sincerely appreciate it, as I've gotten some really nice suggestions since I made this post. To answer the use question, it's definitely a self-buffing melee. The BAB is low, sure. When clearing a quest, though, the BAB of a full melee is typically way higher than it needs to be. By the time this build throws on typical buffs and haste, he doesn't miss much. However, red names on high lvl stuff are sometimes an issue, but if you know the game and anticipate the needs then Tenser's is only a click away. :)


Using 5 inventory for ability stats is rough. I really think tumbleweed is important here +2 to hit is a nice bonus here. Maybe try really hard for +6 x on your dt robes.
And you're the second person to suggest that item now. This is one of the few items I don't know much about, but I'm clearly going to have to give it some consideration. It does sound worth the effort to adjust the inventory plan. Thanks!

[Draiden]

Im sure you have fun playing it and its very different but I myself have trouble running a character that becomes unstable in the face of a beholder, dispel, or mordinkanens disjunction, or one who is at the mercy of timers. At that point you'll need to spend a lot of time rebuffing in order to be able to perform again. What do you do for situations like those?

Great question. Obviously this IS a huge headache for a build like this, and my answer to it is really a variety of options depending on which beholders in the game you're up against. For example, the beholders in Von's (when I solo through it) are typically dealt with PK (the non-named one's are pretty easy to land even with a lower INT than a full caster would have) or Tenser's + Manyshot and a holy bow of greater outsider bane for the bigger one's in the Sub. From time to time I do find myself standing toe to toe against a beholder, but with the silver flame pendant on I usually do well enough to live, and the buffing afterwards isn't that time consuming. Shield, Nightshield, Jump, Ram's Might, Tumble, GH, Displacement and Haste as I run and jump onward through the quest. The saves on this build aren't horrible, either, so that certainly helps. Lastly, when all of the inventory items are gathered and in play, my beholder AC will be 55. That's not terrible.

[Draiden]

What worries me about this build is that 10 enchanted bonus to strength....
A 26 strength is a bit low even for a full BAB character.

I just posted a similar build here (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=180932)
I have a 30 unbuffed strength atm with a +1 tome and a 12BAB, and still have some trouble hitting stuff unbuffed.... and frequently have to turn power attack off.

That's why. I would never argue that this build should use Power Attack. I know, I know... most melee-type players would argue PA as a must-have. My oppinion is that I have Tempest, I'm dualing Khopeshes, my AC is great and I have (or will have) a solid amount of HP's. For a build that's not 100% focused and maxed out on melee, that's pretty good. I've seen my 1-handed crits up to 132 so far, and I'll see even higher down the road. I also don't usually miss on lower numbers any more than the other guys because they're using PA. Look at it this way, with 8 levels of WIZ and 2 levels of Monk I am 5 pts behind the normal melee build's BAB. As soon as they throw on PA we're even again. Except when they're asking for GH/Haste/Displacement... or whatever... I'm just clicking it on and basically popping it like it's candy. It's funny to watch the melee's start hugging up to you on the front lines when they see how often you pop it. I am a DDO crack dealer, and my fellow junkies out there know it. lol

[Gorbie]

I am only aware of being able to get a +9 enchanted bonus to stats with a +6 item and the +1 and +2 stat bonuses on a Green Steel item. So where did you get the +4 on Str above what your Ogre Power gave you?

[Draiden]

I do agree it is an interesting approach taken to presenting the character...actually, informative but still odd.

What the others mean is, we need to see how you did it without having to piece it together ourselves.

Take, for example, your feat selections. First thing we have to do is read your list, pick out what comes standard/not -- notice your race to see how many you get at all, then figure out what you can buy first/second/third/etc....what if it doesn't work in some orders? What if we forget something.

Basically, although you gave an image, ANYBODY else wanting to duplicate it is going to have to MAKE A LIST. Exactly what you didn't do.

Just trying to point out that despite your intentions, you made it harder to do this...and as a result, I'd expect a lot of players aren't even going to look twice at your material...I didn't bother to figure out your feat selections, for example.

Great points. And thank you for being constructive and adult about presenting those points.

To a certain extent, I didn't want to throw out a step-by-step guide on how to replicate my build, so you busted me there. What I really want to show with the product I created is what the character has now, how versatile the build is and what he will accomplish down the road. It would take somebody who is very familiar with the game to dissect the product and build one of their own... but you and I don't want a new player behind the wheel of this one- and neither does that new player, for that matter.

[Accelerando]

I am only aware of being able to get a +9 enchanted bonus to stats with a +6 item and the +1 and +2 stat bonuses on a Green Steel item. So where did you get the +4 on Str above what your Ogre Power gave you?

For sure +2 is from Ram's Might. I am assuming the other +2 is from some monk stance? Not sure I only have 1 guy with monk levels and he took wind.

I like this build I would love to see it in action.

[rezo]

Looks like a good build. Some what like the "Monster" build in the fighter thread. Going to roll one up and take a look at it.

P.S. as a ranger you can wand whip your self to heal, nice.

If you could do a quick brake down like whats lvl to go first it would be helpful.

[Reverand]

I was working a few builds like this with the character generator. I never could come up with something i liked. This one looks great. I may use it as a guild for me next atempt. Nice work. Only +1 tomes, no insane raid gear to MAKE the build work, looks like it would be fun to play from the start.

Feedback on the presentation. I Like the screenshot method. Its a great breakdown of the character with out having all the mystery of it removed. Though I enjoy step by step guides on HOW TO MAKE YOUR OWN <classtoon>. I never mirror a build i find. I always try to improve/personalize it. Really, in the end I'm the one going to be playing it, i should be enjoying it.

Thanks for Posting.

[Thrudh]

Why so many caster levels? Your Spell Pen and DCs will be very sub-par, so the caster levels are only good for buffing and direct damage...

There are very few good 5th and 6th level spells for you to use...

Cloudkill and Acid Fog are the only two I can see that don't allow saves...

Greater Heroism, Teleport, Tensers, True Seeing can all be cast from scrolls

Why not stop at Wizard level 7 or 8, and get more ranger levels...

11 levels of ranger would get you self-cast barkskin, GTWF, Improved Precise Shot, 30 point resists, evasion, etc.

11/8/1 or 12/7/1 or 11/7/2 would be interesting builds...

Of course, I'm biased since I have a 11/5 ranger/wizard who will probably be 12/8 at cap (I'd grab a monk level as well, but he was built before monks came out and he isn't lawful)

[kingfisher]

i went 2 rogue instead of monk, dumping ac pretty much, wf of course, for sull self heals. same stats at end game besides wis. same general idea, i think of it as an arcane scout.

[Draiden]

For sure +2 is from Ram's Might. I am assuming the other +2 is from some monk stance? Not sure I only have 1 guy with monk levels and he took wind.

I like this build I would love to see it in action.

Item for +6, Ram's Might for +2 and Arcane Rage for +2. You can still cast with Arcane Rage, So I use it when I'm confident that I can handle -2 to AC (or use displacement effectively).

[Draiden]

Why so many caster levels? Your Spell Pen and DCs will be very sub-par, so the caster levels are only good for buffing and direct damage...
Which is all I wanted for spell selection.


There are very few good 5th and 6th level spells for you to use...

Cloudkill and Acid Fog are the only two I can see that don't allow saves...
Keep in mind that dmg spells are based on arcane lvls, too. An extended, Maximized firewall dropped in the center of a room can be a GREAT time when you are an AC/Melee build with a bit of intimidate. And when an irritating mob is running away from you, instead of dealing with the frustrating server latency you would usually experience trying to chase a mob, it's so much nicer to just toss a maximized scorching ray at it to finish it off. By the way, I have a superior combustion IV ring that I click on for certain quests. So the dmg is still pretty solid. Also, in two more lvls I'll be picking up empower.


Greater Heroism, Teleport, Tensers, True Seeing can all be cast from scrolls
But can't be extended from scrolls. Also, scrolls are pricy at that lvl. Mana is free. Especially with concordant opp items and the Torque.


Why not stop at Wizard level 7 or 8, and get more ranger levels...

11 levels of ranger would get you self-cast barkskin, GTWF, Improved Precise Shot, 30 point resists, evasion, etc.
11 levels of Wizard gets you 3 bonus MM feats and 30 pt resists. And Tenser's gives you a +4 Natural Armor bonus that doesn't stack with BS. I'll give you that you can still cast with BS on, though.


Of course, I'm biased since I have a 11/5 ranger/wizard who will probably be 12/8 at cap (I'd grab a monk level as well, but he was built before monks came out and he isn't lawful)
And my bias is Arcane. That's what I've been playing since the game came out, for the most part. *shrug* It sounds like we just are biased for what we know. You should try your version and let me know how it turns out.

[Draiden]

i went 2 rogue instead of monk, dumping ac pretty much, wf of course, for sull self heals. same stats at end game besides wis. same general idea, i think of it as an arcane scout.

Yeah, my 3rd attempt at this concept was the Sorc/Pally/Rogue build, but the AC was just too low to gain any respect from party members. I really feel that the Monk class saves this concept from being shredder food.

[Draiden]

I was working a few builds like this with the character generator. I never could come up with something i liked. This one looks great. I may use it as a guild for me next atempt. Nice work. Only +1 tomes, no insane raid gear to MAKE the build work, looks like it would be fun to play from the start.
It most definitely has been fun from the beginning. I think I was doing Gwylan's as a Monk2/Ranger2/Wiz1 (with extend spell) and was saving the pugs from a lot of harry situations. Really good times. And it's amazing how effective those Enfeeble wands are at low lvls. I did a lot of soloing and a lot of pugs. Overall, I leveled very quickly.


Feedback on the presentation. I Like the screenshot method. Its a great breakdown of the character with out having all the mystery of it removed. Though I enjoy step by step guides on HOW TO MAKE YOUR OWN <classtoon>. I never mirror a build i find. I always try to improve/personalize it. Really, in the end I'm the one going to be playing it, i should be enjoying it.

Thanks for Posting.
Thanks for the feedback. I definitely took the presentation a completely different direction, but I can appreciate the mature feedback I've been getting AFTER the first day I posted. lol. I think I'll work on a method that incorporates both styles when I have some more time. Right now I'm just raiding a ton on this character to wrap up all those inventory slots. ;)

[kingfisher]

Yeah, my 3rd attempt at this concept was the Sorc/Pally/Rogue build, but the AC was just too low to gain any respect from party members. I really feel that the Monk class saves this concept from being shredder food.

i feel that with self cast blur/disp/ss etc, decent hp (340ish at lvl 16), and the ability to heal yourself as a wf then you dont have to go ac. the umd and trap skills offer a party more utility while maintaining the same features of the build that are good. dont get me wrong the monk version is great, but i prefer the utility to ac.

question tho, did you put enhancement points into the wiz repair lines? i had some aps to burn so i did (in planning stage) but i am not sure of the benefit yet. edit - obv you didnt cause its a human build. my bad

only concern is bab, tumble or spec gloves will help. dp clickies (ugh). tensors is good at times but limiting imo.

[Draiden]

Looks like a good build. Some what like the "Monster" build in the fighter thread. Going to roll one up and take a look at it.

P.S. as a ranger you can wand whip your self to heal, nice.

If you could do a quick brake down like whats lvl to go first it would be helpful.

I'm going to do my best from memory here, so don't quote me on this. I'm pretty sure I went...

Ranger
Monk
Monk
Ranger
Wiz (Extend Spell)
Wiz
Ranger
Ranger
Ranger
Ranger
Wiz
Wiz
Wiz (HASTE!) (Maximize Spell)
Wiz
Wiz
Wiz

Now that I look at it, I'm sure that's what I did. It took a fair amount of patience to deal with not having Imp 2 Wpn Fighting before lvl 10, and having to wait until lvl 13 for haste was painfull, but it was all worth the wait. Just try to do it all without buying 3,000 haste pots in the process. I'm just about broke after making this toon!

[Draiden]

i feel that with self cast blur/disp/ss etc, decent hp (340ish at lvl 16), and the ability to heal yourself as a wf then you dont have to go ac. the umd and trap skills offer a party more utility while maintaining the same features of the build that are good. dont get me wrong the monk version is great, but i prefer the utility to ac.

question tho, did you put enhancement points into the wiz repair lines? i had some aps to burn so i did (in planning stage) but i am not sure of the benefit yet. edit - obv you didnt cause its a human build. my bad

only concern is bab, tumble or spec gloves will help. dp clickies (ugh). tensors is good at times but limiting imo.

I could see how going WF would be okay. As I mentioned earlier, I know WF completes the synergy on this build, I just have a RP hangup on playing robots in Dungeons and Dragons. The BAB does feel a bit low on rare occasions, but is easily fixed in so many ways. You mentioned DP clickies, which I use from time to time, Tenser's which I love (as long as I remember to haste before I hit it) and a lot of ppl keep mentioning the Spec Gloves. I'm definitely going to need to hunt down a pair. I see it as a melee clicking off Power Attack to hit the high AC mobs in the high lvl content. Just gotta hit this button, then I can go back to whoopin' some...

[maddmatt70]

i feel that with self cast blur/disp/ss etc, decent hp (340ish at lvl 16), and the ability to heal yourself as a wf then you dont have to go ac. the umd and trap skills offer a party more utility while maintaining the same features of the build that are good. dont get me wrong the monk version is great, but i prefer the utility to ac.

question tho, did you put enhancement points into the wiz repair lines? i had some aps to burn so i did (in planning stage) but i am not sure of the benefit yet.

only concern is bab, tumble or spec gloves will help. dp clickies (ugh). tensors is good at times but limiting imo.

First, the OP's build is human and not warforged which may or may not alter your opinion/reasoning, but below is my thinking on the warforged version and why monk over rogue:

- Two extra feats which actually are pretty huge considering I would want extend, quicken, maximize and empower and to use the khopesh.
- Why AC in addition to self healing and displacement and stoneskin. I was thinking about this character in a party and what were its real assets to the group because it is not a full caster nor does it do as much dps as character with 20 levels of melee classes and what I came up with is survivability this character would be a tremendous character at surviving anything other then untyped non energy spell damage and effects.
- +3 to fortitude and d8 hp are both nice for survivability.
- rogue skills can be handled by other members of the party and umd for this character really is not necessary after all you can self heal and have all the arcane spells on your heal list. What do you need a really high umd for?
- d6+3 sneak damage is nice, but you will not always get it especially if you lead with a spell.

[Draiden]

First, the OP's build is human and not warforged which may or may not alter your opinion/reasoning, but below is my thinking on the warforged version and why monk over rogue:

- Two extra feats which actually are pretty huge considering I would want extend, quicken, maximize and empower and to use the khopesh.
- Why AC in addition to self healing and displacement and stoneskin. I was thinking about this character in a party and what were its real assets to the group because it is not a full caster nor does it do as much dps as character with 20 levels of melee classes and what I came up with is survivability this character would be a tremendous character at surviving anything other then untyped non energy spell damage and effects.
- +3 to fortitude and d8 hp are both nice for survivability.
- rogue skills can be handled by other members of the party and umd for this character really is not necessary after all you can self heal and have all the arcane spells on your heal list. What do you need a really high umd for?
- d6+3 sneak damage is nice, but you will not always get it especially if you lead with a spell.

I couldn't have articulated that any better. Although, I will say that he's right about going WF... I think. I'm not 100% sure because balancing stats on this build isn't easy, and it takes a lot of careful concentration to get it right. The Human Adaptability I and II are a huge asset because of this.

[krud]

I cant read anything in that tiny screenshot/image collage.
The image is auto shrunk to fit your browser. If you mouse over the image your browser should give a pop up button that allows you to see it full size. (at least IE does).

[kingfisher]

First, the OP's build is human and not warforged which may or may not alter your opinion/reasoning, but below is my thinking on the warforged version and why monk over rogue:

- Two extra feats which actually are pretty huge considering I would want extend, quicken, maximize and empower and to use the khopesh.
- Why AC in addition to self healing and displacement and stoneskin. I was thinking about this character in a party and what were its real assets to the group because it is not a full caster nor does it do as much dps as character with 20 levels of melee classes and what I came up with is survivability this character would be a tremendous character at surviving anything other then untyped non energy spell damage and effects.
- +3 to fortitude and d8 hp are both nice for survivability.
- rogue skills can be handled by other members of the party and umd for this character really is not necessary after all you can self heal and have all the arcane spells on your heal list. What do you need a really high umd for?
- d6+3 sneak damage is nice, but you will not always get it especially if you lead with a spell.

i edited my post after i saw it was a human not a wf, and my question about the wiz repair line is na. but, imo, there is no point in going that deep in wiz if you are not going wf. the self healing is very win, and makes the build.

as for monk v rogue, totally builder preferance imo. all your points are good, and reasons why the OP picked monk.
rogue brings excellent rogue skills, umd (yes lots of things are covered by the wiz, but heal scrolls, rd, etc. are not). being able to fullfill 3 roles well is great, and be able to spot heal with scrolls as a nice bonus. i like the rogue for the versatility in a group and strength in solo and shortman.

the wf monk version is def better for general melee, based on the feats and ac.

[captain1z]

Yeah, my 3rd attempt at this concept was the Sorc/Pally/Rogue build, but the AC was just too low to gain any respect from party members. I really feel that the Monk class saves this concept from being shredder food.

I appreciate you willingness to answer questions about your build and you seem very confident in its ability to add to a group. That says a lot about what you have built.


Thanks for sharing it, Im sure it will inspire a few to try and come up with their own "outside of the box" character builds. Ever thought about challenging yourself and posting some solo achievments in the same named section of the forums, really show what you can do with him.

[Sydril]

xx

[Comfortably]

Dont craft that boot slot, we already heard thatMod9 would require boots of (cant remember name) to be immune to the banish they cast on us :)

[Quikster]

It most definitely has been fun from the beginning. I think I was doing Gwylan's as a Monk2/Ranger2/Wiz1 (with extend spell) and was saving the pugs from a lot of harry situations. Really good times. And it's amazing how effective those Enfeeble wands are at low lvls. I did a lot of soloing and a lot of pugs. Overall, I leveled very quickly.


Whatever, your a n00b, it took you twice as long to cap that guy as me and someone who will remain nameless took to cap our builds we rolled a full week after you.....



Thanks for the feedback. I definitely took the presentation a completely different direction, but I can appreciate the mature feedback I've been getting AFTER the first day I posted. lol. I think I'll work on a method that incorporates both styles when I have some more time. Right now I'm just raiding a ton on this character to wrap up all those inventory slots. ;)

Raiding a ton? Whateva, you're going to bed at like 5pm, post a screenie of your timers n00b. :eek:



Dont craft that boot slot, we already heard thatMod9 would require boots of (cant remember name) to be immune to the banish they cast on us :)

Dont worry Comf, he cant accumulate the larges needed for crafting anything while he is sleeping :D


For those who are attempting to duplicate what Dray has built here, be warned, it takes a certain special kind of n00b to play this build effectively. This is not your sit back and cycle pk/fod caster, and not your typical run up to mob and hit right mouse button melee.......

Also, you must have a guild with awesomeness to carry you through the shroud every three days. Guild members whose toon names have a Q:cool: in them are particularly vital to success with this build :eek::eek::eek::eek:

[Draiden]

Dont craft that boot slot, we already heard thatMod9 would require boots of (cant remember name) to be immune to the banish they cast on us :)

Woh... thanks for the heads-up! I blame bad guildies (specifically that dweeb Quikster) for not telling me before you did.

[Draiden]

Whatever, your a n00b, it took you twice as long to cap that guy as me and someone who will remain nameless took to cap our builds we rolled a full week after you.....



Raiding a ton? Whateva, you're going to bed at like 5pm, post a screenie of your timers n00b. :eek:




Dont worry Comf, he cant accumulate the larges needed for crafting anything while he is sleeping :D


For those who are attempting to duplicate what Dray has built here, be warned, it takes a certain special kind of n00b to play this build effectively. This is not your sit back and cycle pk/fod caster, and not your typical run up to mob and hit right mouse button melee.......

Also, you must have a guild with awesomeness to carry you through the shroud every three days. Guild members whose toon names have a Q:cool: in them are particularly vital to success with this build :eek::eek::eek::eek:

Lol... Quik... do you miss me? Sweetheart, you gripe at me more than my girlfriend. It's the weekend, bro. I'll see you when my DQ/Titan/Shroud/Reaver timers are reset tomorrow. Yes... timers are running as we speak.

[kingfisher]

First, the OP's build is human and not warforged which may or may not alter your opinion/reasoning, but below is my thinking on the warforged version and why monk over rogue:

- Two extra feats which actually are pretty huge considering I would want extend, quicken, maximize and empower and to use the khopesh.
- Why AC in addition to self healing and displacement and stoneskin. I was thinking about this character in a party and what were its real assets to the group because it is not a full caster nor does it do as much dps as character with 20 levels of melee classes and what I came up with is survivability this character would be a tremendous character at surviving anything other then untyped non energy spell damage and effects.
- +3 to fortitude and d8 hp are both nice for survivability.
- rogue skills can be handled by other members of the party and umd for this character really is not necessary after all you can self heal and have all the arcane spells on your heal list. What do you need a really high umd for?
- d6+3 sneak damage is nice, but you will not always get it especially if you lead with a spell.

ok so after a lot of thought and play i have deleted my rogue version and re-rolled as a monk currently lvl 5. in the end it came down to the feats. the rogue build is decent-to-good at lots of things, but the melee capabilities and caster capabilities fall short because of the lack of feats. while i really like the rogue skills added into this build, it does not play the same and becomes a buffing rogue/3rd tier melee. i almost want to have both but i am short on character slots. thanks for making me think about it mm70, in the end this guy is made to kill stuff, and the monk feats make it a much better killer.

gonna post a skeletal outline of what i have done / am doing for wf/human comparision purposes but i can flesh it out if needed.

WF for sure, for sure, for sure.
starting stats (at 16)
15 (32 with rams and rage)
16 (26)
14 (26 with rage)
13 (24)
11 (20)
6 (8 swap to 14)
+1 tome in int at lvl 1, +3 tomes in str and int eventually, +2 in all the rest.

feats:
khop
dodge (monk)
mobility (monk)
extend (wiz)
OTWF ( might swap to empower at 13-14)
spring attack
ic slash
maximize (wiz)
quicken

empower (wiz 10 at lvl 18)
GTWF (18)

ac
dt docent and an insight wep - 58 self buffed - 71 with ranger/bard/pally/recitation (nice but i wont count on it too often and really the damage mitigation will be good)

hp and sp will be fine and i wont bother posting spells and skills

puttin as many ap's into the force/repair and fire/cold lines as i can, plus stats, fe dam/def, racial tough, etc

gear is standard, tho i will prolly make a couple dt docents for diff situations (ac, guards, casting, etc)