Dwarven Axe VS Khopesh VS Bastard Sword

[Asketes]

[EDIT for 2011]

Since this thread comes up #1 on google when you search: "dwarven axe vs khopesh or ddo khopesh (http://www.google.com/search?aq=f&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=google#sclient=psy&hl=en&q=dwarven+axe+vs+khopesh&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=98286c98e5a0f890)" (maybe a +1 is in order for getting a horrible (and hilarious) thread as #1 on google? :D :D :D

Short Version:
1) Khopesh is better dps than all other TWF weapons
2) moderate fort situations the D.Axe gets close to the khopesh
3) heavy fort situations (there really isn't enough to consider this viable), the D.axe surpasses the Khopesh
4) no clue about the bastard sword with the glancing blow changes


Side note:
If you wanna see me act silly and pick fights because I seriously didn't know better, read the whole thread :D
Keep in mind, this is all super old, no starting fights over stuff that was said two years ago


[/EDIT for 2011]




**EDIT**
my initial findings were incorrect due to ignorant knowledge on my behalf.

Having been informed of the proper way to calculate the DPS between these three weapons

See post # 8 for me (bypass all my pi$$ing and moaning :D)

AND

Post # 22 by Gfunk (the number crunching genius who is the king of DPS calculation) for pick, Dwarven Axe, Bastard Sword, and Khopesh on Fighter Kensai and Fighter Stalwart Defender

I'm testing the difference between Khopesh, Bastard Swords, and Dwarven Axes.

This is what I came up with.

Controlled Facts:
Improved Critical feat
Not assuming any damage addition except for base damage and weapon quality
100 swings for the test
Each swing is considered a hit
Each swing does the median damage allowable by the weapon
Khopesh median damage: (1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9+10)/10 = 5.5
Dwarven Axe median damage: (1+2+3+4+8+6+7+8)/8=4.5 x 2 = 9
Bastard Sword median damage: (1+2+3+4+8+6+7+8)/8=4.5 x 2 = 9
The amount of crit hits is exact to the percent of possible crits
All crits are considered confirmed
All possible crits are accounted for as confirmed and actual
Possible crits are taken away from normal attacks
After initial test I set out to find what the Damage Per Minute would be for these guys assuming Greater Two Weapon Fightint (83 swings per hand, assuming BAB 16)

The Weapons:

Greensteel Khopesh Blank
Damage: 1d10+5 per swing
Crit range: 17-20 (20% of the time is a Crit)
Crit multiplier: x3
Median Damage: 5.5
Possible Crits: 10% (12-30)

Greensteel Dwarven Axe Blank
Damage: 2d8+5 per swing
Crit range: 19-20 (10% of the time is a Crit)
Crit Multiplier: x3
Median Damage: 9
Possible Crits: 5% (18-45)

Bastard Sword
Damage: 2d8+5 per swing
Crit Range: 17-20
Crit Multiplier: x2
Median Damage: 9
Possible Crits: 10% (10-28)

TEST 1 (100 swings):

Kopesh:
100 swings total
70 Normal Hits = (5.5 + 5) x 70 = 735
20 Crit Hits = ((5.5+5) x 3) x 20 = 630
10 possible Crits = ((5.5 + 5) x 3) x 10 = 315
Total Damage = 1680

Dwarven Axe:
100 swings total
85 Normal Hits = (9 + 5) x 85 = 1190
10 Crit Hits = ((9 + 5) x 3) x 10 = 420
5 Possible Crits = ((9 + 5) x 3) x 5 = 210
Total Damage = 1820

Bastard Sword:
100 swings total
70 Normal Hits = (9 + 5) x 70 = 980
20 Crit Hits = ((9 + 5) x 2) x 20 = 560
10 Possible Crits = ((9 + 5) x 2) x 10 = 280
Total Damage: 1820


From what I have come up with it seems that the Dwaven Axe and Bastard Swords do slightly more damage coming in at 1820 points of damage; where the Khopesh weighed in at only 1680 points of damage.


TEST 2 (Damage for one minute of GTW):

Khopesh:
58 Normal Swings = (5.5 + 5) x 58 = 609
17 Crit Hits = ((5.5 + 5) x 3) x 17 = 535
8 Possible Crit = ((5.5 + 5) x 3) x 8 = 252
Total: 1396 x2 (two weapons) = 2792 points of damage per minute

Dwaven Axe:
71 Normal Swings = (9 + 5) x 71 = 994
8 Crit Hits = ((9 + 5) x 3) x 8 = 336
4 Possible Crit = ((9 + 5) x 3) x 4 = 168
total: 1498 x 2 (two weapons) = 2996 points of damage per minute

Bastard Sword:
58 Normal Swings = (9 + 5) x 58 = 812
17 Crit Hits = ((9 + 5) x 2) x 17 = 476
8 Possible Crit = ((9 + 5) x 2) x 8 = 224
Total: 1512 x2 (two weapons) = 3024 points of damage per minute

So it seems for the first minute, Bastard Sword does a small amount more DPS than the Dwarven Axe. But any longer than a minute, the extra crit multiplier of the Dwarven axe starts to catch up to the Bastard Sword.

Conclusion:
Short term (trash dps) fighting, the Bastard Sword is the answer
Long term (raid boss/red name) fighting, the Dwarven Axe is the answer

The Khopesh, although crits A LOT, just cannot keep up with it's lower base damage, which keeps the crit damage low as well.

Thanks for reading.

-Rob

[KatanAztar]

Strength, power attack, bloodstone, bursting effects, etc, do not affect all these weapons equally which are giving you results that aren't very useful. Kopesh is way higher than the bastard sword using realistic data.

[QuantumFX]

Conclusion:
Short term (trash dps) fighting, the Bastard Sword is the answer
Long term (raid boss/red name) fighting, the Dwarven Axe is the answer

The Khopesh, although crits A LOT, just cannot keep up with it's lower base damage, which keeps the crit damage low as well.

You have totally missed the point as to why the kopesh is better.

[captain1z]

You have totally missed the point as to why the kopesh is better.

explain.

[Monkey_Archer]

explain.

Besides pointing out the flaws in your calculations....
Run your numbers again with +10 for 30 strength and +5 for powerattack

[captain1z]

without any hard numbers behind how I feel, just from experience alone............

I say the khopesh is the better weapon. Why? because the crit range is indeed 19-20 but when u have improved crit its 17-20 and any burst effects will go off even if your opponent is immune to crits.

The data you posted does not take this into account.

The data as it stands has a plain +5 weapon of each variety attacking a creature that can be critted 100 times. Based on this alone the dwarven axe may pull ahead but the amount of time required for this to happen is not realisticly the length of a typical encounter in DDO unless we are talking a raid boss.

Burst effects are gunna widen the dps gap and you cant proclaim a weapon to be the winner until you take this into account.

Real world test would be 6 identical warriors each attacking 6 identical mobs 100 times.
3 warriors have vanilla +5 weapons the other 3 have +1 holy burst weapons.
The mobs each have 10,000 hps and can be hit on a roll of 2 or better.

Which warrior drops his mob the lowest or kills it 1st?

I'd wager the holy burst khopesh. Its why some barbarians use rapiers.

[QuantumFX]

explain.

The OP assumes that the weilder of the weapon is a gimp.

To OP ignores the following sources of precrit damage:
Strength
Enhancement bonus to the weapon
Power Attack
Favored Enemy
Bardsong

He also ignores the following sources of Crit damage
Burst damage
Seeker

The OP demonstrates a lack of knowledge about how crits operate. The kopesh amplifies damage twice as often as a Dwarven axe and twice as powerfully as a Bastard Sword. The sources of damage I outlined above are twice as powerful for the kopesh.

If you don't understand how this works: The crit profile of a weapon is (threat range) multiplied by (Crit multiplier -1). A Kopesh is 8 (4 for the 17-20 crit range and x2 for the multiplier) The Dwarven Axe is 4 (2 for the 19-20 crit range and x2 for the multiplier) The Bastard Sword is also 4 (4 for the crit range x1 for the multiplier)

[Asketes]

hey POSTERS,

here's an idea.

Quit being self righteous boobs and explain to me what I did wrong.

Quit acting like a bunch of know it all self-righteous _-_-_- and say, "hey you need to add str and PA into the mix to see the khopesh shine."

I haven't been playing since I was a little zygote like you guys, I have a life. So I don't know everything there is to know about this game. I was posting what I KNEW (see my signature if you want proof).



If what I post is wrong, tell me WHY, don't just say, 'say the OP is an idiot."


Tell me "why" the khopesh is better. This does not help, and just makes you look sad:

You have totally missed the point as to why the kopesh is better.

Don't even post in my thread if you are going to act like a child


Strength, power attack, bloodstone, bursting effects, etc, do not affect all these weapons equally which are giving you results that aren't very useful. Kopesh is way higher than the bastard sword using realistic data.

bursting effects are only semi-reliant on crit multiplier (just the amount of times you crit). They rely on the multiplier to allow a set amount of potential damage to affect the mob, not to be calculated by it.

example: good burst: "...additionally all monsters of evil alignment take an additional 3d6 on a critical hitfor weapons with a x2 multiplier, 4d6 for x3, adn 5d6 for x4. (The main comparison was D.axe and khopesh, a buddy wanted B.swords in there.. FOR D.axe and khopesh the burst effects will remain the same amount of damage at 4D6, just at a differenct fluctuation of frequency.)


Besides pointing out the flaws in your calculations....
Run your numbers again with +10 for 30 strength and +5 for powerattack

Although rather dastardly, you were probably only 1 of 2 posters who at least informed me how I could see a whole different set of numbers.



The OP assumes that the weilder of the weapon is a gimp.

To OP ignores the following sources of precrit damage:
Strength
Enhancement bonus to the weapon
Power Attack
Favored Enemy
Bardsong

He also ignores the following sources of Crit damage
Burst damage
Seeker

The OP demonstrates a lack of knowledge about how crits operate. The kopesh amplifies damage twice as often as a Dwarven axe and twice as powerfully as a Bastard Sword. The sources of damage I outlined above are twice as powerful for the kopesh.

If you don't understand how this works: The crit profile of a weapon is (threat range) multiplied by (Crit multiplier -1). A Kopesh is 8 (4 for the 17-20 crit range and x2 for the multiplier) The Dwarven Axe is 4 (2 for the 19-20 crit range and x2 for the multiplier) The Bastard Sword is also 4 (4 for the crit range x1 for the multiplier)

You my friend are just being rude. instead of criticizing me as a person, give me what I need to know. Don't talk about me, saying I am demonstrating a lack of knowledge and how I am stupid. OF COURSE I AM, I don't eat this game for breakfast 24 hr/day.

oh and reread my post, I included the +5 enhancment DUDE. what a waste of my time you are.

Quit your self-stimulating talk, and explain (like you did in the 2nd part of your post)


I find it funny you guys like to have diarrhea of the mouth when it comes to telling people off, telling people how they are wrong, and why you are sooo better (i would be too if I bought that much lube for the soul) BUT you don't actually tell people WHY they are wrong, without sound like an SOB.



Here are my redone numbers (thanks to those that helped, and no thanks to those who acted like panzys)



Assume a 30 Str
Assume PA (+5)
total: 18 modifier to damage

Kopesh:
100 swings total
70 Normal Hits = (5.5 + 23) x 70 = 1995
20 Crit Hits = ((5.5+23) x 3) x 20 = 1700
10 possible Crits = ((5.5 + 23) x 3) x 10 = 855
Total Damage = 4550

Dwarven Axe:
100 swings total
85 Normal Hits = (9 + 23) x 85 = 2720
10 Crit Hits = ((9 + 23) x 3) x 10 = 960
5 Possible Crits = ((9 + 23) x 3) x 5 = 480
Total Damage = 4160

Bastard Sword:
100 swings total
70 Normal Hits = (9 + 23) x 70 = 2240
20 Crit Hits = ((9 + 23) x 2) x 20 = 1280
10 Possible Crits = ((9 + 23) x 2) x 10 = 640
Total Damage: 4160


So I redid the numbers for the 100 swing test. It seems that this follows to what people say.

Given real life situations, the khopesh takes the lead with the higher crit range and multiplier.

[Asketes]

reposted the above by accident

[stazer]

[QUOTE=Asketes;2166312]hey POSTERS,

here's an idea.

Quit being self righteous boobs and explain to me what I did wrong.

Quit acting like a bunch of know it all self-righteous _-_-_- and say, "hey you need to add str and PA into the mix to see the khopesh shine."

I haven't been playing since I was a little zygote like you guys, I have a life. So I don't know everything there is to know about this game. I was posting what I KNEW (see my signature if you want proof).

You sir get the thumbs up for the day! Pretentious hyper nerds really know how to suck the fun out of games. T

however you may not want my support because I play so infrequently, not by choice I love this game, that I got confused by the splash screen which said mod 9.

[Goldeneye]

I'm interested in how a Bloodstone would effect these numbers.

With improved crit:

The khopesh, with the 17-20 x3
vs. Dwarven Axe, a 19-20 x3
add in seeker +6, that is a good bit more damage

in addition, even though the base damage of the Dwarven Axe and Bastard Sword might be higher, I believe it is the Burst/Blast effects that put the Khopesh in the lead

All in all, Bastard Swords and Dwarven Axes still do a good amount of damage (more one handed martial weapons), however it is the crit range that puts the Khopesh in the lead

unfortunately, I do not have the numbers to back up my statement here, therefor this is nothing but my personal opinion

EDIT: You have already established this in post #9 - I totally failed my spot check

[Murderface]

its a weapon that has an augmented crit range. the only way that a bastard sword or dwarven axe can compete is if you have a creature not vulnerable to elemental burst damage or holy bursts and cannot be critted..

this is the only game where a weapon with those stats are even legal...
but for the most part kopesh does more damage no matter what since they have the best crit range and multiplier by far.

think about it there taking crit range widening enhancments away for a reason. so now the best way to get augmented crit range is thru kopesh....

[Asketes]

think about it there taking crit range widening enhancments away for a reason. so now the best way to get augmented crit range is thru kopesh....

what do you mean by this? I know they're taking away crit rage for barbs. what else?

[Mr_Ed7]

THE OP PRESENTED EVIDENCE!!!

EVIDENCE beats out OPINION everytime!

You "Khopeshers" need to do your own freaking tests!!!
AND PRESENT THE EVIDENCE!

Great job poster!

Of course if you make a build and make choices that YOU LIKE, you will never be disappointed!

In my opinion!

[Asketes]

THE OP PRESENTED EVIDENCE!!!

EVIDENCE beats out OPINION everytime!

You "Khopeshers" need to do your own freaking tests!!!
AND PRESENT THE EVIDENCE!

Great job poster!

Of course if you make a build and make choices that YOU LIKE, you will never be disappointed!

In my opinion!


Thanks :)

I've been a big fan of D.axes because, truthfully, I've never done the math. I just assumed less crit with higher base damage would win out.

Now that I've done :D THE CORRECT :D math, it does seem that khopesh would be the way to go for more DPS *sigh*

It would be nice to have something else available to use instead of what EVERYONE is using.. Like Bastard Swords (underpowered in DDO) or something.

Do the DEV's have anything planned so we all don't look the same carrying the same weapon? (DT armor is fine, that I can comprehend, but having one weapon that rules them all is kind of .... bland?)

[krud]

You must factor in strength and anything else that adds to base damage, or else the numbers are meaningless. Weapons with different crit range and multipliers respond differently to factors that add to base damage (not to mention seeker effects). Look what happens when you add in just +10 for strength (30str)

TEST 1 (100 swings):

Kopesh:
100 swings total
70 Normal Hits = (5.5 + 5+10) x 70 = 1435
20 Crit Hits = ((5.5+5+10) x 3) x 20 = 1230
10 possible Crits = ((5.5 + 5+10) x 3) x 10 = 615
Total Damage = 3280

Dwarven Axe:
100 swings total
85 Normal Hits = (9 + 5+10) x 85 = 2040
10 Crit Hits = ((9 + 5+10) x 3) x 10 = 720
5 Possible Crits = ((9 + 5+10) x 3) x 5 = 360
Total Damage = 3120

Bastard Sword:
100 swings total
70 Normal Hits = (9 + 5+10) x 70 = 1680
20 Crit Hits = ((9 + 5+10) x 2) x 20 = 960
10 Possible Crits = ((9 + 5+10) x 2) x 10 = 480
Total Damage: 3120


I don't know anyone who will be swinging any of those weapons without at least a +10 to damage. It only gets better for the khopesh the more you start adding to base damage.

[Emili]

I'm interested in how a Bloodstone would effect these numbers.

With improved crit:

The khopesh, with the 17-20 x3
vs. Dwarven Axe, a 19-20 x3
add in seeker +6, that is a good bit more damage

in addition, even though the base damage of the Dwarven Axe and Bastard Sword might be higher, I believe it is the Burst/Blast effects that put the Khopesh in the lead

All in all, Bastard Swords and Dwarven Axes still do a good amount of damage (more one handed martial weapons), however it is the crit range that puts the Khopesh in the lead

unfortunately, I do not have the numbers to back up my statement here, therefor this is nothing but my personal opinion

EDIT: You have already established this in post #9 - I totally failed my spot check


I may be incorrect as I am tired, However just bloodstone damage from these weapons should equate to this (or around) in 100 swings...

khopesh, 17-20 x3 (6 (seeker) x 20(in threat out of 100) x 3 (crit multiplier) = 360
D Axe, 19-20 x3 (6 (seeker) x 10(in threat out of 100) x 3 (crit multiplier) = 180
Rapier, 15-20 x2 (6 (seeker) x 30(in threat out of 100) x 2 (crit multiplier) = 360
B sword, 17-20 x2 (6 (seeker) x 20(in threat out of 100) x 2 (crit multiplier) = 180
Scimitar, 15-20 x2 (6 (seeker) x 30(in threat out of 100) x 2 (crit multiplier) = 360

Like a previous posted conveyed the Khopesh does twice the crit damage of a Dwarf Axe on average in the same amount of swings thus a fixed damage number such as seeker is exactly twice should all crit range rolls occur and verify.

PS: I do feel the OP does deserve some sort of apology for people correcting him the way they did... While we do understand (and as does he now) that he was initially incorrect... lack of knowledge of all facts of DnD or DDO in any case does not reflect nor bare any warrant on ones true intellect. One may correct instructively, constructively or destructively the later of which 't is not bloody nice.

When all these weapons are put to practice in DDO... In the three years I've played DDO I have spec'd for all the weapons listed above on practically the same character (like stats) and in my opinion the Khopesh feels like it performs much better then the others.

[Damionic]

I thought he was on to a winner here

Sadly the (cheat) Khopesh proved its Overpowerednes...Dev's If you want EVERYONE to use a Khopesh..please take out ALL the other weapons!!

This is the same sort of gross Cheating that gives Fire/Cold casters the Edge!!

To Balance the Game NERF THE KHOPESH!

[Asketes]

I thought he was on to a winner here

Sadly the (cheat) Khopesh proved its Overpowerednes...Dev's If you want EVERYONE to use a Khopesh..please take out ALL the other weapons!!

This is the same sort of gross Cheating that gives Fire/Cold casters the Edge!!

To Balance the Game NERF THE KHOPESH!

it's not cheating, but unlike in PnP. you can just get something from a vendor that carries it all (i think hehe)

it's just a bit bland.

I'd take a new weapon ANY day over character / armor differences *maybe*

[direwolf33]

See this thread: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=150822

[Justicar]

hahahahaha, you tell em man


hey POSTERS,

here's an idea.

Quit being self righteous boobs and explain to me what I did wrong.

Quit acting like a bunch of know it all self-righteous _-_-_- and say, "hey you need to add str and PA into the mix to see the khopesh shine."

I haven't been playing since I was a little zygote like you guys, I have a life. So I don't know everything there is to know about this game. I was posting what I KNEW (see my signature if you want proof).

You my friend are just being rude. instead of criticizing me as a person, give me what I need to know. Don't talk about me, saying I am demonstrating a lack of knowledge and how I am stupid. OF COURSE I AM, I don't eat this game for breakfast 24 hr/day

[gfunk]

just of some perspective, the range of damage modifiers for all builds in my twf thread are:

+28 to 57 main hand (avg 44.0 for the builds listed)
+24 to 47 main hand (avg 35.6 for the builds listed)

you could remove inspire heroics and prayer to come up with a more common damage modifier for non-raiding:

+20 to 49 main hand (avg 36.0 for the builds listed)
+16 to 39 main hand (avg 27.6 for the builds listed)

Those are numbers at lvl 20 though, so +30 is probably a good average to use as a generic number for average builds at lvl 16.

The other thing that comes into it is enhancements to crit multipiers and range. This might make 1 weapon better for some classes than others. for example, heavy picks are slightly better than dwarven axes, which are better than bastard swords for kensai fighters (at +30 damage modifier) but the same is not true for a stalwart defender (At the same damage modifier, obviously I'm not adding anything extra for dwarven racial axe enhancements here, thats not the point):

formula:
[(normal damage) * (normal range/20)] + [(crit damage) * (crit range/20)] = average damage

for a kensai fighter:

heavy pick (kensai get +1 to crit range and +4 to crit damage)
(4.5 +30)*16/20 + (4.5 +30 +4) *4) *3/20)=50.7

dwarven axe:
(9 +30)*16/20 + (9 +30 +4) *3) *3/20) = 50.55

bastard sword:
(9 + 30)*14/20 + (9 +30 +4)*2) *5/20) =49.80

in this example, you can see that the bastard sword is the worst weapon, and the heavy pick is the best (by a narrow margin)

if you add in a bloodstone, the difference increases:

heavy pick (+10 with bloodstone + kensai crit damage)
(4.5 +30)*16/20 + (4.5 +30 +10) *4) *3/20)=54.30

dwarven axe:
(9 +30)*16/20 + (9 +30 +10) *3) *3/20) = 53.25

bastard sword:
(9 + 30)*14/20 + (9 +30 +10)*2) *5/20) =51.80


for a stalwart defender:

heavy pick:
(4.5 +30)*17/20 + (4.5 +30) *4) *2/20) = 43.13

dwarven axe:
(9 +30)*17/20 + (9 +30) *3) *2/20) = 44.85

bastard sword:
(9 + 30)*15/20 + (9 +30 )*2) *4/20) =44.85

The bastard sword is now just as good as the dwarven axe, and both are better than the heavy pick, however:

with bloodstone:

heavy pick
(4.5 +30)*17/20 + (4.5 +30 +6) *4) *2/20) = 45.53

dwarven axe:
(9 +30)*17/20 + (9 +30 +6) *3) *2/20) = 46.65

bastard sword:
(9 + 30)*15/20 + (9 +30 +6 )*2) *4/20) = 47.25

the bloodstone makes the bastard sword a better weapon in this case.

But wait! the story is not yet over, because many mobs have FORTIFICATION! this means that much of the critical power of a weapon is lost! For example a 50% fortification level (harry on normal, dev confirmed) means that 50% of critical hits are resisted and damage is instead rolled normally. This essentially cuts the crit range of all the weapons in half giving:

for a kensai fighter:

heavy pick
(4.5 +30)*17.5/20 + (4.5 +30 +4) *4) *1.5/20)=41.74
dwarven axe:
(9 +30)*17.5/20 + (9 +30 +4) *3) *1.5/20) = 43.8
bastard sword:
(9 + 30)*16.5/20 + (9 +30 +4)*2) *2.5/20) =43.43

previously, the bastard sword was the worst weapon, but against 50% fortification it now pulls ahead of the heavy pick

with bloodstone:

heavy pick (+10 with bloodstone + kensai crit damage)
(4.5 +30)*17.5/20 + (4.5 +30 +10) *4) *1.5/20)=43.54
dwarven axe:
(9 +30)*17.5/20 + (9 +30 +10) *3) *1.5/20) = 45.15
bastard sword:
(9 + 30)*16.5/20 + (9 +30 +10)*2) *2.5/20) =44.43

The bloodstone decreases the difference, but the order remains the same

for a stalwart defender:


heavy pick:
(4.5 +30)*18/20 + (4.5 +30) *4) *1/20) = 37.95
dwarven axe:
(9 +30)*18/20 + (9 +30) *3) *1/20) = 40.95
bastard sword:
(9 + 30)*17/20 + (9 +30 )*2) *2/20) =40.95
with bloodstone:

heavy pick
(4.5 +30)*18/20 + (4.5 +30 +6) *4) *1/20) = 39.15
dwarven axe:
(9 +30)*18/20 + (9 +30 +6) *3) *1/20) =41.85
bastard sword:
(9 + 30)*17/20 + (9 +30 +6 )*2) *2/20) = 42.15

so, why does the bastard sword have a bad reputation? 3 reasons:
1) it takes a feat (vs the heavy pick which doesn't, or the d axe that dwarves get)
2) it has no racial enhancements (so the d axe pulls ahead)
2) its not a khopesh

The khopesh is just a brute of a weapon. Here are the numbers for it:

for kensai fighter
khopesh
(5.5 + 30)*14/20 + (5.5 +30 +4)*3) *5/20) =55.98
khopesh with bloodstone
(5.5 + 30)*14/20 + (5.5 +30 +10)*3) *5/20) =58.98

Stalwart defender:
khopesh
(5.5 + 30)*15/20 + (5.5 +30 )*3) *4/20) =47.93
khopesh with bloodstone
(5.5 + 30)*15/20 + (5.5 +30 +6 )*3) *4/20) = 51.53

So vs. no fortification, the khopesh is the best of all of the weapons in any of the 4 configurations that I have listed. Thats why its popular.. its the carte blanche best weapon for almost all builds at typical damage modifiers

However, VS 50% fort:

for kensai fighter
khopesh
(5.5 + 30)*16.5/20 + (5.5 +30 +4)*3) *2.5/20) =44.85
khopesh with bloodstone
(5.5 + 30)*16.5/20 + (5.5 +30 +10)*3) *2.5/20) =46.35
Stalwart defender:
khopesh
(5.5 + 30)*17/20 + (5.5 +30 )*3) *2/20) =37.28
khopesh with bloodstone
(5.5 + 30)*17/20 + (5.5 +30 +6 )*3) *2/20) = 42.63

In this case, compare the khopesh vs the bastard sword and dwarven axe for the stalwart defender (without bloodsteon) and it starts to fall behind. It picks up its lead again if you add in the bloodstone. Its also still the best weapon for all the kensai fighter scenarios, however the difference is muted at 50% fort. Obviously, at 100% fort, the weapons with the best base damage are the best (dwarven axe + bastard sword). The fortification level for which higher base damage weapons beat the khopesh is variable, but generally ranges from 50 to 75%.

Buy Wait! the story isnt over... sigh...

We didnt add in weapon effects, which still land even if the target is crit immune. Im not going to put in all the math for this.. it would get way to messy for most people to follow. Instead I'll just put in the average effects damage for triple positive weapons, with all dps tiers (i should point out that at some point, the 3rd tiers of these weapons were changed, which causes endless confusion. compare the images in these two links:

old: http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i195/Aundymeister/SupremeTyrantLongsword.jpg (http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i195/Aundymeister/SupremeTyrantLongsword.jpg)
new: http://images.quickblogcast.com/82681-72328/green_steel.jpg (http://images.quickblogcast.com/82681-72328/green_steel.jpg)

The difference is that the old version is missing some extra crit damage coming from good blast, which previously only added damage on a 20. Incidently, the old version is still listed as the type example on the stone of change thread.)

effects damage with normal improved crit:
bastard sword
7.0 … holy
3.5 … good
2.1 … good burst on crit (3d6*4/20) tier II
2.1 … good blast on crit (3d6*4/20) tier III
0.7 … good blast on 20 (4d6 %1/20) tier III
15.4

khopesh
7.0 … holy
3.5 … good
2.8 … good burst on crit (4d6*4/20) tier II
2.8 … good blast on crit (4d6*4/20) tier III
0.7 … good blast on 20 (4d6 %1/20) tier III
16.8

dwarven axe
7.0 … holy
3.5 … good
1.4 … good burst on crit (4d6*2/20) tier II
1.4 … good blast on crit (4d6*2/20) tier III
0.7 … good blast on 20 (4d6 %1/20) tier III
14.0

heavy pick
7.0 … holy
3.5 … good
1.8 … good burst on crit (5d6*2/20) tier II
1.8 … good blast on crit (5d6*2/20) tier III
0.7 … good blast on 20 (4d6 %1/20) tier III
14.7

with kensai III improved crit

bastard sword
7.0 … holy
3.5 … good
2.6 … good burst on crit (3d6*5/20) tier II
2.6 … good blast on crit (3d6*5/20) tier III
0.7 … good blast on 20 (4d6 %1/20) tier III
16.5

khopesh
7.0 … holy
3.5 … good
3.5 … good burst on crit (4d6*5/20) tier II
3.5 … good blast on crit (4d6*5/20) tier III
0.7 … good blast on 20 (4d6 %1/20) tier III
18.2

dwarven axe
7.0 … holy
3.5 … good
2.1 … good burst on crit (4d6*3/20) tier II
2.1 … good blast on crit (4d6*3/20) tier III
0.7 … good blast on 20 (4d6 %1/20) tier III
15.4

heavy pick
7.0 … holy
3.5 … good
2.6 … good burst on crit (5d6*3/20) tier II
2.6 … good blast on crit (5d6*3/20) tier III
0.7 … good blast on 20 (4d6 %1/20) tier III
16.5

ok, thats a bit tough to see at a glance... here is a summary table:

reg … kensai III
15.4 … 16.5 … bastard sword
16.8 … 18.2 … khopesh
14.0 … 15.4 … dwarven axe
14.7 … 16.5 … heavy pick

Once again the khopesh shows its dominance, this time it is better than all other weapons in both scenarios. Combining this with the earlier base weapon data we get (best in each catagory is bolded:

vs no fortification:
kensai . kensai w/ bs . stalwart . stalwart w/ bs
67.15 … 70.75 ......… 57.83 … 60.23 … heavy pick
65.95 … 68.65 ......… 58.85 … 60.65 … dwarven axe
66.25 … 68.25 ......… 60.25 … 62.65 … bastard sword
74.18 … 77.18 …...... 64.73 … 68.33 … khopesh

VS 50% fortification:
kensai . kensai w/ bs. stalwart . stalwart w/ bs
58.19 … 59.99 ...….. 52.65 … 53.85 … heavy pick
59.20 … 60.55 .....… 54.95 … 55.85 … dwarven axe
59.88 … 60.88 …..... 56.35 … 57.55 … bastard sword
63.05 … 64.55 …..... 54.08 … 59.43 … khopesh

now, the khopesh is better in all situations, except for the non-crit improved melee fighting a mob with 50% fortification and not using a bloodstone. I'm not going to add it in, but you can imagine that once again, as fortification increases, the weapons with higher base damage will eventually overtake the khopesh and heavy pick (only the cross over point will be a bit higher when you include weapon effects.

whew..

[gfunk]

PS: I do feel the OP does deserve some sort of apology for people correcting him the way they did... While we do understand (and as does he now) that he was initially incorrect... lack of knowledge of all facts of DnD or DDO in any case does not reflect nor bare any warrant on ones true intellect. One may correct instructively, constructively or destructively the later of which 't is not bloody nice.


I agree, people are rude however we are talking about the forums here. remember what they say about the forums:

"You'll never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious"..

or was that somewhere else.. hmm

[Asketes]

Thanks for the info guys!

GFUNK awesome work and thanks for taking your time to post and write all that up!


I didn't know good blast was changed. that's awesome! more dps.

So how much late game do you think is 50%+ fortified?

hehe

[gfunk]

So how much late game do you think is 50%+ fortified?

hehe

well, there are alot more pieces of data and scenarios to consider. I put in the triple pos damage because I wanted to bring up the discrepancy in weapon effects, however I probably should have included mineral II effects to provide people with a comparison that means something to them (i.e. beating up harry).

The problem is, that lots of people have different configurations of mineral II's. Personally I favor: tier I as positive damage , tier II acid damage and tier III as an insight or other non-damaging effect. Other people like to put acid first. Other people like thier tier III portion with a damaging effect.

Then you have to consider if the mob you are fighting is immune to any of the effects... acid is a common one for end game, but holy loses out vs mobs that aren't evil (in which case a "good" tier II would be better). When fighting Harry, you won't tend to do very much acid damage, so you would lose alot of the benefit of the khopeshes higher crit power with regard to the bursting damage. This would tend to equalize the weapons a bit more.

Anyways, as to which mobs are crit immune at end game the most important ones currently are Elementals. I hear that there will be some shadows in the new mod, so Undead might be another important crit immune endgame mob to consider (plus the skeletons in the subterrane, but they have DR/blunt so thats a whole other problem). I hear there is a named iron golem in the explorer area in mod 9.. maybe there will be other Constructs as well.

And finally, there are always raid/end bosses to consider and its a bit hard to say what the devs might do there but I would suspect that any raid boss we have will possess at minimum 50% fort, some level of acid and fire resistance, possibly DR/ to some weapon types/materials, and possibly evasion.

The combination of all those factors further complicates our analyses of weapon superiority. It's safe to say that khopesh will always treat you pretty well, but other weapons might be situationally superior, or they might be easier to come by. The other thing to consider is the possible addition of named weapons in mod 10. Some people postulate that there will be a holy avenger longsword, and who knows what else they might throw in? Maybe another brutishly powerful weapon like the deathnip, or perhaps they will try and give love to the unwanted weapons and put in a named shurikan and warhammer. I think its wise to wait a couple months (or more?) for the next mod before making any expensive decisions on weapon types.

Personally, I have saved enough ingredients to switch my fighter from duel bastard swords over to duel khopeshes as I feel that they will serve me better in a wider range of scenarios when I switch to kensai. (before the changes to fighter crit range, the difference was not as great and I had been using bastard swords for flavor and because they seem to drop like mad out of chests. I get one pretty much every day I play, but I hardly ever see any khopeshes drop. I personally am suspicious that the dev's gave bastard swords a higher drop rate to encourage their use). I'm going to hold off crafting the khopeshes until I find out for sure there will be no named bastard swords.

[Kaldaka]

It only gets better for the khopesh the more you start adding to base damage.


What he said ...

[QuantumFX]

PS: I do feel the OP does deserve some sort of apology for people correcting him the way they did... While we do understand (and as does he now) that he was initially incorrect... lack of knowledge of all facts of DnD or DDO in any case does not reflect nor bare any warrant on ones true intellect. One may correct instructively, constructively or destructively the later of which 't is not bloody nice.

The only thing that I'm sorry about is that the OP has such a fragile ego. Critique sucks, but he decided to post without verifying his math. Then he decided to act like a drama queen the moment he perceived a threat to his conclusion. (You notice I never insulted him but he decided to go on his little whine fest anyway.)

[Asketes]

The only thing that I'm sorry about is that the OP has such a fragile ego. Critique sucks, but he decided to post without verifying his math. Then he decided to act like a drama queen the moment he perceived a threat to his conclusion. (You notice I never insulted him but he decided to go on his little whine fest anyway.)

I pity you bud.

I acted not as a drama queen, but as someone who was spit in the face by a bunch of "know it all's" acting like lunatics.

I don't have a fragile ego; the fact that it is counter productive to be hostile towards a poster who is putting his findings up for critique, is what bothers me. It does nothing but to waste my time and the reader's time.

You may want to go back to school there kid, my math is and was, flawless. Where I went wrong was not "knowing" to implement str and/or power attack into the damage.

[Junts]

I pity you bud.

I acted not as a drama queen, but as someone who was spit in the face by a bunch of "know it all's" acting like lunatics.

I don't have a fragile ego; the fact that it is counter productive to be hostile towards a poster who is putting his findings up for critique, is what bothers me. It does nothing but to waste my time and the reader's time.

You may want to go back to school there kid, my math is and was, flawless. Where I went wrong was not "knowing" to implement str and/or power attack into the damage.


That's cool, but this math has been done about 60 times on the forums and is readily available if you use the search feature, picked over and critiqued to the point where nothing's left out.


The initial responses to your post weren't even particularly hostile, and your response was needlessly defensive. However, it needed to be corrected because it advanced an inaccurate and misleading conclusion (that bastard swords were better than khopeshes) that causes needless problems later when some poor newbie reads your thread, believes it and shows up in the shroud with two ****** bastard swords and won't listen to anyone suggesting they get a real weapon.

You'd do a lot of service by updating your initial post with the correct findings, strength/pa numbers, etc to display the assorted points at which khopesh is not the best weapon in the game (all 5% of them).

[gfunk]

A long time ago I made a post concerning some math matter where I was missing some assumptions that were probably not obvious unless you had a good deal of experience with the game. I also got some resposes that were rather curt.. they didn't say "hey, your an idiot", but they were written in a rather blunt and condescending in tone. When I remarked that perhaps it would be more constructive to respond in a more courteous manner, I was also made fun of for my "fragile ego", and told to grow up by a couple of the posters.

I learned then, that internet forums are not a place where everyone values civility. I find it hard to believe that people might communicate that way in real life, but perhaps I am living in a bit of a bubble existance.

In my world, people don't bluntly say "things like Wrong, you fail to understand the fundamental aspects of this rather basic concept", they will instead say "I think that you are mistaken, here is why I think so...".

Here on the forums, not everyone seems to agree with what I think is a good communication manner... I know, I know.. its crazy..

In the end, I try not to fire back at people who I view as discourteous... it only provokes them. And besides, other people have a very different idea about what "polite" is so they might not even know that you are finding their words offensive.

[Thanimal]

In the end, I try not to fire back at people who I view as discourteous... it only provokes them.

Very solid advice. But BOY is it hard to implement!

[gfunk]

That's cool, but this math has been done about 60 times on the forums and is readily available if you use the search feature, picked over and critiqued to the point where nothing's left out.


The initial responses to your post weren't even particularly hostile, and your response was needlessly defensive. However, it needed to be corrected because it advanced an inaccurate and misleading conclusion (that bastard swords were better than khopeshes) that causes needless problems later when some poor newbie reads your thread, believes it and shows up in the shroud with two ****** bastard swords and won't listen to anyone suggesting they get a real weapon.

You'd do a lot of service by updating your initial post with the correct findings, strength/pa numbers, etc to display the assorted points at which khopesh is not the best weapon in the game (all 5% of them).

Not everyhing has been picked over, and many of the threads have misleading and incomplete information. Bastard swords are actually nearly as good as or better than khopeshes for some (lower str without crit improvement) builds, even vs. Harry, and that information is often buried in the rampant bastard sword bashing on the forums.

[Asketes]

A long time ago I made a post concerning some math matter where I was missing some assumptions that were probably not obvious unless you had a good deal of experience with the game. I also got some resposes that were rather curt.. they didn't say "hey, your an idiot", but they were written in a rather blunt and condescending in tone. When I remarked that perhaps it would be more constructive to respond in a more courteous manner, I was also made fun of for my "fragile ego", and told to grow up by a couple of the posters.

I learned then, that internet forums are not a place where everyone values civility. I find it hard to believe that people might communicate that way in real life, but perhaps I am living in a bit of a bubble existance.

In my world, people don't bluntly say "things like Wrong, you fail to understand the fundamental aspects of this rather basic concept", they will instead say "I think that you are mistaken, here is why I think so...".

Here on the forums, not everyone seems to agree with what I think is a good communication manner... I know, I know.. its crazy..

In the end, I try not to fire back at people who I view as discourteous... it only provokes them. And besides, other people have a very different idea about what "polite" is so they might not even know that you are finding their words offensive.

Well spoken Gfunk, I shall take your words into strong consideration.



AFTER THIS NEXT POST :D

(next post is in no way intended to be cruel or disrespectful to Junts, but it comes off a bit strong. hehe

[Asketes]

That's cool, but this math has been done about 60 times on the forums and is readily available if you use the search feature, picked over and critiqued to the point where nothing's left out.

I agree with you Junts, this math HAS been done a bunch of times, but the search function isn't as clean cut as hoped (it's as good as it can get given it's functionality). Searching for Crit DPS, or best weapon, or best weapon dps, or critical dps, weapon damage all brings up tons of posts that have nothing to really do with what I was looking for.

The initial responses to your post weren't even particularly hostile, and your response was needlessly defensive.

You have totally missed the point as to why the kopesh is better.useless, waste of my time, tells me nothing except (at the time) what seemed like an opinionated belief. Without telling me why, it does nobody any good and thus should never have been posted.


Besides pointing out the flaws in your calculations....
Run your numbers again with +10 for 30 strength and +5 for powerattack (although helpful, it banks on the idea that I know nothing and shows that the poster can't do math. my math was very correct, (1+1=2) math, not that I didn't add Str into the mix. I didn't know to do so)


The OP assumes that the weilder of the weapon is a gimp.

To OP ignores the following sources of precrit damage:
Strength
Enhancement bonus to the weapon
Power Attack
Favored Enemy
Bardsong

He also ignores the following sources of Crit damage
Burst damage
Seeker

The OP demonstrates a lack of knowledge about how crits operate. The kopesh amplifies damage twice as often as a Dwarven axe and twice as powerfully as a Bastard Sword. The sources of damage I outlined above are twice as powerful for the kopesh.

If you don't understand how this works: The crit profile of a weapon is (threat range) multiplied by (Crit multiplier -1). A Kopesh is 8 (4 for the 17-20 crit range and x2 for the multiplier) The Dwarven Axe is 4 (2 for the 19-20 crit range and x2 for the multiplier) The Bastard Sword is also 4 (4 for the crit range x1 for the multiplier)I already spoke about this one.

However, it needed to be corrected I wanted to be critiqued and corrected because it advanced an inaccurate and misleading conclusion (that bastard swords were better than khopeshes) (I specifically said that I want people to correct my info, that's why I post here. Not to hear peoples BS about their uberness and how I'm not. I want to have the right info so I can make proper decisions about toon building.)that causes needless problems later when some poor newbie reads your thread, See reason #3 to my reasons for not updating my initial post, then read #4. believes it and shows up in the shroud with two ****** bastard swords and won't listen to anyone suggesting they get a real weapon.

You'd do a lot of service by updating your initial post with the correct findings, strength/pa numbers, etc to display the assorted points at which khopesh is not the best weapon in the game (all 5% of them).

I prefer not to update my initial post.

here's why

1) this isn't meant to be like Cforce or Gfunk's (much appreciate) uber number cruncher "refer to" cure all post. (they are awesome though, what would we do with these guys, and some other knowledgeable people)
2) it allows people to see a really easy way to mess up calculating DPS
3) people should be reading through the post (if it's not long) to find the progression, this eliminates repeat information from trickling down
4) if they want to just read the first post and post, it's their loss
5) I will put a snipet at the very top saying something like: my initial findings were incorrect due to ignorant knowledge, having been informed of the proper way to calculate the DPS between these three weapons see post # X Already done, thanks for the tip Gfunk

Make sense Junts?

I do respect your posting though dude, you have a lot of good stuff and advice to give out.

[QuantumFX]

I pity you bud.

I acted not as a drama queen, but as someone who was spit in the face by a bunch of "know it all's" acting like lunatics.

No you were overreacting to a bunch of people who were giving you the equivalent to a /facepalm. While my responses were direct there was nothing there worthy enough for you to go off on your little rant.


I don't have a fragile ego; the fact that it is counter productive to be hostile towards a poster who is putting his findings up for critique, is what bothers me. It does nothing but to waste my time and the reader's time.

No. Posting a completely backwards assessment of damage is a waste of time.


You may want to go back to school there kid, my math is and was, flawless. Where I went wrong was not "knowing" to implement str and/or power attack into the damage.

No. Your math was misleading and not reflecting the realities of DDO. If it was “flawless” people wouldn't have had to come correct you.

[Junts]

Not everyhing has been picked over, and many of the threads have misleading and incomplete information. Bastard swords are actually nearly as good as or better than khopeshes for some (lower str without crit improvement) builds, even vs. Harry, and that information is often buried in the rampant bastard sword bashing on the forums.


I agree with you there; there's a lot of interesting dps math that people don't necessarily know about. I was surprised to learn that, for the holy/acid burst/2 con min2 i intended to craft for my bard (24 str, no pa, but bloodstone), that rapier was not, in fact, a very small dps dropoff, but rather -actually better dps- than a greataxe, due to the swingspeed differences and the relatively low strength/no pa bonuses being applied to boost the greataxe's damage - it was a question of 4-14 damage per swing vs a 17% improvement in swing speed -and- double benefit from the bloodstone dps .. the rapier was 3% better instead of the 5-8% worse i expected.

Of course its also fair to note that most of the gap made up by bastard swords happens when they're greensteel, too ..

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

nice calcs gfunk.

...but won't the dwarven axe enhancements push Dwarven Axe above all the other weapon types if all of them are taken and the fighter is wearing a bloodstone?

Garth

[gfunk]

nice calcs gfunk.

...but won't the dwarven axe enhancements push Dwarven Axe above all the other weapon types if all of them are taken and the fighter is wearing a bloodstone?

Garth

The khopesh is really tough to beat. Although some people have recommended the dwarven axe as the best damage, alot of peoples calculations don't include weapon effects (and they may have done them at different damage bonuses), and part of the reason that the dwarven axe loses out is because it is pretty far behind the khopesh on effects damage.

I've added in a row that has the +2 axe enhancements included and you can see that although the damage improves, its not enough to overtake the Khopesh in most catagories (except stalewart without bloodstone vs. 50% fort where it overtakes the bastard sword). Once again, the tables have been done considering triple pos weapons and a +30 bonus to damage (+32 for the improved d axe)

vs no fortification:
kensai . kensai w/ bs . stalwart . stalwart w/ bs
67.15 … 70.75 ......… 57.83 … 60.23 … heavy pick
65.95 … 68.65 ......… 58.85 … 60.65 … dwarven axe
68.45 … 71.15 …...... 61.15 … 62.95 … dwarven axe with +2 to damage (axe enh)
66.25 … 68.25 ......… 60.25 … 62.65 … bastard sword
74.18 … 77.18 …...... 64.73 … 68.33 … khopesh

VS 50% fortification:
kensai . kensai w/ bs. stalwart . stalwart w/ bs
58.19 … 59.99 ...….. 52.65 … 53.85 … heavy pick
59.20 … 60.55 .....… 54.95 … 55.85 … dwarven axe
61.40 … 62.75 …..... 57.05 … 57.95 … dwarven axe with +2 to damage (axe enh)
59.88 … 60.88 …..... 56.35 … 57.55 … bastard sword
63.05 … 64.55 …..... 54.08 … 59.43 … khopesh

Now, if we were to change our assumptions and lower the damage bonus, the dwarven axe would start to edge out the khopesh.

Similar to the Bastard sword, the dwarven axe starts to do really well with base damage vs. non critable opponents, however if the mob you are fighiting is prone to weapon effects, then the khopesh might still be close

avg weapon effects damage on a triple pos (all damage tiers):
14.0.. dwarven axe with normal improved crit (good damage)
15.4.. dwarven axe with with kensai III improved crit (good damage)
16.8.. khopesh with normal improved crit (good damage, 2.8 more then comparable d axe)
18.2.. khopesh with kensai III improved crit (good damage, 2.8 more then comparable d axe)

So when you are thinking about non-crit mobs like undead, the triple pos dwarven axe would be only 0.7 damage per hit ahead (9 avg d axe base vs 5.5 avg khopesh base is 3.5, less the 2.8 good damage difference is 0.7).

But, change the assumptions to a mineral II weapon, and the khopesh does not have nearly the advantage vs. (Say for example) mobs with acid immunity/resistance where you are only getting holy, and slicing damage (9.5 avg for all weapons):

vs. 50% fort:
kensai .. kensai w/ bs . stalwart .stalwart w/ bs
51.24 ...… 53.04 …... 47.45 …... 48.65 … heavy pick
53.30 …... 54.65 …... 50.45 …... 51.35 … dwarven axe
55.50 …... 56.85 …... 52.55 ...… 53.45 … dwarven axe with +2 to damage (axe enh)
52.93 …... 53.93 …... 50.45 …... 51.65 … bastard sword
54.35 ...… 55.85 …... 46.78 …... 52.13 … khopesh

now, the dwarven axe pulls ahead in most scenarios so this may be the situation that people are considering where they consider d-axes to be superior (but they will begin to fall behind again as damage bonuses increase beyond 30, remembering that some builds can get to the high 50's in buffed main hand damage bonus in mod 9). I'll point out (to those of you who know me and poke fun at my human fighter) that these numbers were part of the reason why my human fighter used bastard swords in mod 6,7,8 (i.e. the damage vs Harry was virtually identical to the khopesh when you were considering standard improved crit, and I wanted a bit of flavor to my build. For mod 9, my fighter will have a much higher damage bonus and kenai crit range, so I will switch over to khopeshes, though the difference certainly isn't a game breaker)

I hope that everyone realizes that the results are heavily dependant on what damage bonus you use to calculate your damage output, what mob you are fighting, and what crit enhancements you may have. Also, the racial attack bonus enhancements may be important to some builds.

These results are indicative at a typical lvl 16 damage bonus level, however everyone needs to consider their own build when they are picking their weapons. Also as Junts pointed out above, these are all results for greensteel weapons. Non-green steel versions of the bastard sword and dwarven axe do not do nearly as well against the khopesh because of the lesser difference in their average base damage.

The other thing I would like to point out is that all of the above weapons are doing fairly decent damage. The differences in damage in the last example (which would be the situation fighting harry) are rather insignificant for most groups. No one using any of the above weapons should be considered "gimpy" imo.

[Thucydides04]

I posted this in the petition thread as well. This is strictly just the numbers one could expect to put up swinging each weapon w/o any special equipment outside of str enhancers.

//

I was sitting in class bored today and considered the math behind Bastages vs. Dwaxes vs. Khops.

The results are pretty interesting if you are building a TWF DPSer and plan on using a feat to aquire the weapon proficiency.

Anyways, here are the results:

Consider the expected value of a swing with each weapon where the weapons are the same acorss the board (i.e. a +5 Basatge vs. +5 Dwaxe vs +5 Khop) where B denotes a Bastage, D a Dwaxe, and K a Khop. I also let x= strength dmg multiplier and y = the wpn modifier and allow for improved crit without any loss of generality.

E[b] = 0 + 15*(0.05*(5.5+x+y)) + 4*(0.05*(2*(5.5+x+y)))
E[b] = 6.325 + 1.15x + 1.15y damage per swing
E[D] = 0 + 17*(0.05*5.5+x+y + 2*(0.05*(3*(5.5+x+y)))
E[D] = 6.325 + 1.15x + 1.15y damage per swing
E[K] = 0 + 15*(0.05*(4.5+x+y)) + 4*(0.05*(3*(4.5+x+y)))
E[K] = 6.075 + 1.35x + 1.35y damage per swing

Notice that Bastages deal the same amount of damage as a Dwaxe regardless of strength multiplier. If you consider when there is extra damage due to a crit (like maiming) the Bastage will do 1d6 on crit vs. the 2d6 by the Dwaxe. But the Bastage is hitting critcally twice as often as the Dwaxe so its a wash again! Perhaps if you are considering a Dwaxe build, you may want to reconsider the Bastard Sword and save yourslef some plat equipping him. I know that with some attention to the AH I can equip a twf with a pair of vorpal, smiting, and disruption bastages for less than 50K plat.

Now, compare the results of both with the Khop, i.e. when is E[K] > (E[b]=E[D])
Consider the following:

E[K]?>E[b]

6.075 +1.35x + 1.35y > 6.325 +1.15x + 1.15y

Doing algebra yields:

x + y > 1.25

Now we know that for any combination of strength and weapon multipliers whose sum is greater than 1.25, the khopesh does more damge per swing than either the dwaxe or the bastage. This is pretty significant since any most dps builds start with AT LEAST 14 str. So, clearly there is no incentive to go the Bastard Sword route since it costs a feat (at least Dwaxes don't cost a feat if you play a dwarf). About the only good thing a Bastard Sword has going for it is its low cost.

[rezo]

It really comes down to is what the players thinks is the best weapon. Dwarfs like the axes and most others like the khopeshs. I myself like the scimitars for the crit. range. We all play the game the way we want to.

[Emili]

It really comes down to is what the players thinks is the best weapon. Dwarfs like the axes and most others like the khopeshs. I myself like the scimitars for the crit. range. We all play the game the way we want to.


I like scimitars a lot... I like Bastard swords too on certain builds. All my melee girls are Khopesh or rapier melee though... even my ranged spec ranger has IC: Pierce...

In my bank is a +2 keen flametouch scimitar - call me silly but has sentimental value.

Oh, way back when ... Emili was originally built as a tank, I itred of that position and rerolled her a month after release to dps, at that time Khopeshes were very few and being human Bastard Swords were pretty much same as a D axe, thus that's what I used... coming up the levels even those were rare to find... I had like two with any alignment or element on them and was still feeling sluggish at level 6. A friend of mine (no longer with us) gave me that +2 keen flametouch scimitar I went into SC with it and the feel of her was totally different - from that point onto level (when I could add IC:slash) Emili felt like a killer... Over the years she's been rerolled two more times last one was as a 32 point Khopesh user but it was that scimitar which opened my eyes ... it showed that the weapons a character uses plays with a lot of the feel of the character... Among my melee girls I still carry no less then 30 weapons on each of them, even though they're all sporting Greensteel also... last I counted on characters and in banks I have 214 Khopeshes on hand and 93 rapiers.... and still one +2 keen flametouch scimitar. ;)

[Beerina]

remember what they say about the forums:

"You'll never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious"..

The board fun continues:

"My friend here says he doesn't like you."


"I'm sorry."


"(gets in his face) I don't like you either!"

[Iakona]

That's cool, but this math has been done about 60 times on the forums and is readily available if you use the search feature, picked over and critiqued to the point where nothing's left out.


The initial responses to your post weren't even particularly hostile, and your response was needlessly defensive. However, it needed to be corrected because it advanced an inaccurate and misleading conclusion (that bastard swords were better than khopeshes) that causes needless problems later when some poor newbie reads your thread, believes it and shows up in the shroud with two ****** bastard swords and won't listen to anyone suggesting they get a real weapon.

You'd do a lot of service by updating your initial post with the correct findings, strength/pa numbers, etc to display the assorted points at which khopesh is not the best weapon in the game (all 5% of them).



Just more BS from someone that was (yes WAS) insulting. The guy erred. Folks were just plain rude, and they were offering NO positive support for their claims other than an "I think so".

And while YOU may consider bastard swords inadequate for anything YOU do, they are:

-far more available in the brokers at lower levels making them far cheaper to level with (making them much the
better choice for a new player on a limited budget)
-easily SWAPPED for Kopesh when you get shroud-ready with the free feat
-not actually all THAT different in damage at lower levels when you are getting geared up (you folks ASSUME way
too much)

You start off offering a HUGE post full of data to correct the error, and that's helpful. But then you post after that and say basically that you made a mistake once and got flamed, so since you were treated badly once it justifies others getting treated badly as well. Very mature attitude you have there. Maturity should have taught you otherwise. Didn't even try to take a bad experience and learn something useful from it, did you? Well take another flame and try to learn from it.

[Iakona]

The only thing that I'm sorry about is that the OP has such a fragile ego. Critique sucks, but he decided to post without verifying his math. Then he decided to act like a drama queen the moment he perceived a threat to his conclusion. (You notice I never insulted him but he decided to go on his little whine fest anyway.)

read my previous post. applies to you as well

[A_Sheep]

-far more available in the brokers at lower levels making them far cheaper to level with (making them much the
better choice for a new player on a limited budget)
-easily SWAPPED for Kopesh when you get shroud-ready with the free feat
-not actually all THAT different in damage at lower levels when you are getting geared up (you folks ASSUME way too much)


-This is where I disagree with the advice that you and others are offering concerning BS's being cheaper: a 'crappy' Khopesh is still better than a good bastard sword in most cases.

-A new player likely needs his feat respec for something else.

-I guess you're sorta right on this one, but a new player is probably better off taking other feats at these low levels.

[Asketes]

either way:

I ended up using B.swords until I made Demiknight's green steel khopesh

Had her Min II's for about a month or so. Just finished her Lightning II's.

Sweet stuff guys!

It's funny, you HAVE to take into account the random Lightning strike, othewise I would have kept the Min II because the extra slicing (d4) damage and the free feat. I had to take imp. crit again for my Lightning Strike khopeshes



Good times!

[Vanshilar]

Eh you can also check out this thread:

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=224786

In there I put graphs of the relative damage of different types of weapons, depending on how many +damage modifiers you have, although the graphs include fighter kensai 3 (which increases the crit range) and I did not include burst etc. effects. I can easily include bastard sword or non-kensai 3 etc., those are just simple number changes in the Excel spreadsheets, if you want. (Burst effects etc. are still more of a pain to include because of different assumptions about which ones people will pick, but I am working on those).

I think an initial problem that anyone trying to crunch these numbers will often encounter is that the game mechanics are not readily transparent. It is easy to forget that your strength modifier etc. affects your damage, especially when the way the game displays the "base damage rating" on weapons. On the other hand, if you are coming up with a conclusion like "use bastard sword for trash" when a cursory search of weapons comparisons shows that the general consensus is the khopesh for low-fort and dwarven axe for high-fort, you're just asking for trouble. It would be wise to read through the threads and see how people came up with their conclusions rather than just thinking that you've had some late-night breakthrough that no one else has had. On the other hand, it's a good thing that you made your calculations transparent; it's easier for people to check ("peer review") your calculations that way and verify them, rather than just stating numbers that people have to take on faith, so kudos for that.

[Havenor]

I am sure that this has been addressed by somebody, somewhere, but as this is a relatively long thread with a lot of data flying around, i didn't actually see it. But my question is; does this particular set of equations look off to anyone but me?


Each swing does the median damage allowable by the weapon
Khopesh median damage: (1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9+10)/10 = 5.5
Dwarven Axe median damage: (1+2+3+4+8+6+7+8)/8=4.5 x 2 = 9
Bastard Sword median damage: (1+2+3+4+8+6+7+8)/8=4.5 x 2 = 9


If this has been noted already, feel free to ignore this.

[CrimsonEagle]

Necro thread?

[Sweetsoul86]

PS: I do feel the OP does deserve some sort of apology for people correcting him the way they did... While we do understand (and as does he now) that he was initially incorrect... lack of knowledge of all facts of DnD or DDO in any case does not reflect nor bare any warrant on ones true intellect. One may correct instructively, constructively or destructively the later of which 't is not bloody nice.



Emi, this right here is why I like you so much.

Asketes *hugs* overall cool thread, I know jack all about damage seeing as I've only just made my first fighter ever a few weeks ago and she's a kensai dual kopesh wielder thanks to the help and advice of my better half (yazool, durrgin, xarissa). It was nice to do a bit of learning about the different options for her though.

[Asketes]

Heh

This thread is AGES old

I laughed when I saw it had gotten dredged up from the graveyard.


I am soo not the noob wanna be bastid anymore

i've learned!

[ArchStriker]

Lol posts 2-7, that's what I feel like when I'm asking for a type of build, I just get a bunch of common knowledge bleeep. And the worst part is they don't even try to help me.

[kernal42]

Really? Necro'd again?

[Eladiun]

Heh

This thread is AGES old

I laughed when I saw it had gotten dredged up from the graveyard.


I am soo not the noob wanna be bastid anymore

i've learned!


The above is totally untrue. He is still a total noob bastid. :)

[ArchStriker]

Really? Necro'd again?

Can you stop giving me continous negative rep kernal, I just search something up on google and I look at it and comment, I don't friggin care if I'm necroing or whatever necro'd is, this is about the thread, do you say everything you think?

[kernal42]

Can you stop giving me continous negative rep kernal

Considering I don't have enough rep to dole out neg rep, I can only conclude that someone else is displeased by your need to necro threads without anything relevant to add to the discussion.

-Kernal

[Asketes]

The above is totally untrue. He is still a total noob bastid. :)

just wait until we have sooo much plat... errr DPS that everything gets heavy fort.. then we'll see D.Axes live again!


muahahahaha

[ArchStriker]

Considering I don't have enough rep to dole out neg rep, I can only conclude that someone else is displeased by your need to necro threads without anything relevant to add to the discussion.

-Kernal

Thread's, links please
and it said you gave me so much neg rep each day, you doing that on purpose lol, and not even giving neg rep to the right post just this over and over again, each day.

[Quaylin]

Really doesn't matter it all depends on the rolls anyway, yea u may have a higher percentage wise but, if i roll 10 18s back to back it changes everything, its all chance there will never be a perfect calculation so therefore use anyone u like. Its all percentage based when in fact u never know what ur gonna roll.

[stainer]

Considering I don't have enough rep to dole out neg rep, I can only conclude that someone else is displeased by your need to necro threads without anything relevant to add to the discussion.

-Kernal

I think you do now Kernal.

[Doxmaster]

Well, if we're going to be necro-ing bad threads,I guess I need to go necro the best thread ever. BRB.

[ArchStriker]

How am I supposed to know if I'm necroing I search the forums they don't seem to help so much, I search on bing ddo, khopesh dps v.s, or whatever and this popped up, so I clicked on it and commented and you over react, as usual.

[Asketes]

How am I supposed to know if I'm necroing I search the forums they don't seem to help so much, I search on bing ddo, khopesh dps v.s, or whatever and this popped up, so I clicked on it and commented and you over react, as usual.

Yeah! i'm #1 on google!

[Doxmaster]

How am I supposed to know if I'm necroing...

In the upper lefthand corner of each post, there is a little strip of information. This information is the date and time the post was added to the thread.

[Asketes]

How am I supposed to know if I'm necroing


In the upper lefthand corner of each post, there is a little strip of information. This information is the date and time the post was added to the thread.

First post: 04-24-2009, 12:55 AM

only two years ago


at the very least, I added some [EDIT] at the beginning for the short tl;dr users.. and advised those who want a kick to read the whole thread.

[Teharahma]

First post: 04-24-2009, 12:55 AM

only two years ago


at the very least, I added some [EDIT] at the beginning for the short tl;dr users.. and advised those who want a kick to read the whole thread.

You we're actually right in the original post.
You just forgot the STR-mod and how it affects dmg.

[Asketes]

You we're actually right in the original post.
You just forgot the STR-mod and how it affects dmg.

I wish I could say back then I forgot. I plain out didn't know, even more so I wouldn't have known how it affects it. :D

I remember those days, I was so lost and confused. haha but like a real person figures things out, I did too :P


gosh I remember being soo upset I lost my muckbane and that cursespewer i had waiting for me at lvl 8 on my twf barbarian that had an 8 base dex

[Teharahma]

I wish I could say back then I forgot. I plain out didn't know, even more so I wouldn't have known how it affects it. :D

I remember those days, I was so lost and confused. haha but like a real person figures things out, I did too :P


gosh I remember being soo upset I lost my muckbane and that cursespewer i had waiting for me a tlvl 8 on my barbarian w/ twf that had an 8 base dex

Hahaha, got some good memories of those aswell.
Oozes eating all my weapons, taking like a week to level to 4, things were so much more relax back then, sigh.

[Asketes]

Hahaha, got some good memories of those aswell.
Oozes eating all my weapons, taking like a week to level to 4, things were so much more relax back then, sigh.

even when we were relaxed, we still got the job down. no whining or complaining.


I remember going into proof is in the poison, feeling inadequate (<-- understatement) and learning how to get better.


my best memory is when I finally hit my 1750 favor and by that point having learned enough to build a much better character. I muscled through having only the first twf feat (i still didn't know till after I hit lvl 14 and boldrin and I were talking about twf, he was like dude, what are you doing!)

[naii2526]

#1 search at google for "bastard sword ddo"

:)

[Asketes]

#1 search at google for "bastard sword ddo"

:)

haha that too

[Kalindush]

Try "DDO Khopesh", works too.

Just not work "DDO Dwarven Axe" :(

[Sixclicks]

You need to consider factors such as a seeker item which every melee should have. I also recommend you do the calculation with elemental effects included since a 3x multiplier compared to a 2x multiplier will make a big difference when including elemental burst and blast effects. For example I did the calculations with a green steel lit2 khopesh, bastard sword, and dwarven axe. In that situation the green steel khopesh does significantly more than the other two. When fighting creatures that cannot be crit, the green steel bastard sword came out on top with slightly more damage.

[katz]

uhg. really? REALLY?!?!

[TheHolyDarkness]

I didn't know December was the month of necromancy.

Thought that holiday passed us already.

[Elfvyra]

I didn't know December was the month of necromancy.

Thought that holiday passed us already.

Sigh, more proof that Necromancers are overpowered? ;)

[pyntsized]

I thought he was on to a winner here

Sadly the (cheat) Khopesh proved its Overpowerednes...Dev's If you want EVERYONE to use a Khopesh..please take out ALL the other weapons!!

This is the same sort of gross Cheating that gives Fire/Cold casters the Edge!!

To Balance the Game NERF THE KHOPESH!
The Dev's did nerf the khopesh. How? They made it rare in chests. And if you look on the AH (on cannith at least) a +3 khopesh sells for about the same as a +4/5 weapon that isn't a khopesh.

[Teharahma]

The Dev's did nerf the khopesh. How? They made it rare in chests. And if you look on the AH (on cannith at least) a +3 khopesh sells for about the same as a +4/5 weapon that isn't a khopesh.

That's not because it's rarer, it's because people use Khopesh more over Dwarven Axe of Bastard Sword.

[oldnoob]

#1 for "ddo dwarven axe vs bastard sword"

[Comegetsome]

In terms of GS
Khopesh > BS/DA when fort<50%
Khopesh=DA/BS when fort=50%
DA/BS > Khopesh when fort>50%

with the upcoming weapon die normalization
a khopesh will became more powerful in comparison against it exotic friends both epic and GS unless they nerf khopesh or buff DA/BS
1.5*1d8/2*1d8 10%x3 crit will surely deal more dmg than 1.5*1d10/2*1d10 5%x3/10%x2 crit up to like 75% fort

[Mahalko128]

As of Update 20 Path 1, the only reason that Khopeshes could be considered as weaker than Bastard Swords or Dwarven Axes is that there simply are no good high level Khopesh rares. Not compared to the Bastard Swords and Dwarven Axes, at least.

[Battlehawke]

I have yet to see any Obscenity Items, but with today's update a +6 Obscenity Khopesh of Feeding/Draining or any item of +6 Obscenity of Feeding/Draining should allow players another option besides named weapons of Life Stealing.......even with the last nerf..
...it's definitely a small game equalizer "if" they exist.

Battlehawke

[DrakHar]

After many years, since 2008, of using only khopeshes on my main, I am finally dropping the feat. They haven't made a good khopesh in a while.

[zaphear]

After many years, since 2008, of using only khopeshes on my main, I am finally dropping the feat. They haven't made a good khopesh in a while.

Make your own.

[Smokewolf]

Anyone consider the effect of Glancing blows on the effective dps of D-Axes and B-Swords?

[Cordovan]

Four year old necro.