My Non-conspiracy theory on the apparent lack of content

[Draccus]

It seems the number one disappointment with what we know about Mod9 is the apparent lack of content (please look up the definition of the word apparent before posting "you don't know if that's all the content"). Four quests and a raid seems to be a bit thin after 8 months; I agree. But maybe it's not as bad as it sounds. Stick with me a moment...this is all my guess.

Mod 9 content was ready to go live at the Anniversary in early March.
Turbine wanted to test the TDM with Mod9 but it had tons of technical issue so they delayed Mod9's launch.
During the delay, the content team shifted work to Mod10. They were done with Mod9, after all.
Turbine's now working on fixing the TDM issues before launching Mod9.
When it's finished, Mod9 will launch. Then...
Mod10 launches VERY soon after Mod9. I'm thinking it will be less than two months before it goes onto the test server.
Mod10, then, contains all the shiney new content they've been working on for 8+ months! Loads of quests! Multiple raids! New Gear!

(Trying to be optimistic...)

[krud]

your meds just kicked in, right? ;)

[Lerincho]

Head injury?

[Kylas_Maernos]

Wow........Can I get some of what you're using??

[Lerincho]

It seems the number one disappointment with what we know about Mod9 is the apparent lack of content (please look up the definition of the word apparent before posting "you don't know if that's all the content"). Four quests and a raid seems to be a bit thin after 8 months; I agree. But maybe it's not as bad as it sounds. Stick with me a moment...this is all my guess.

Mod 9 content was ready to go live at the Anniversary in early March.
Turbine wanted to test the TDM with Mod9 but it had tons of technical issue so they delayed Mod9's launch.
During the delay, the content team shifted work to Mod10. They were done with Mod9, after all.
Turbine's now working on fixing the TDM issues before launching Mod9.
When it's finished, Mod9 will launch. Then...
Mod10 launches VERY soon after Mod9. I'm thinking it will be less than two months before it goes onto the test server.
Mod10, then, contains all the shiney new content they've been working on for 8+ months! Loads of quests! Multiple raids! New Gear!

(Trying to be optimistic...)


you putting money where this post is?

[Grosbeak07]

It seems the number one disappointment with what we know about Mod9 is the apparent lack of content (please look up the definition of the word apparent before posting "you don't know if that's all the content"). Four quests and a raid seems to be a bit thin after 8 months; I agree. But maybe it's not as bad as it sounds. Stick with me a moment...this is all my guess.

Mod 9 content was ready to go live at the Anniversary in early March.
Turbine wanted to test the TDM with Mod9 but it had tons of technical issue so they delayed Mod9's launch.
During the delay, the content team shifted work to Mod10. They were done with Mod9, after all.
Turbine's now working on fixing the TDM issues before launching Mod9.
When it's finished, Mod9 will launch. Then...
Mod10 launches VERY soon after Mod9. I'm thinking it will be less than two months before it goes onto the test server.
Mod10, then, contains all the shiney new content they've been working on for 8+ months! Loads of quests! Multiple raids! New Gear!

(Trying to be optimistic...)

I'm sorry, but forum optimism was nerfed in Mod 7

[Grimgore]

Hold on a sec <gets out tin hat> OK, now tell me your story again....

[Tomas_Laren]

and and... they're gonna give us the wish spell, and fly, and levitate, and maybe even mirror image.... and don't forget polymorph self, baleful polymorph, and time stop!

sorry let my caster fantasies out again

[barecm]

I'm sorry, but forum optimism was nerfed in Mod 7

Actually, I think that nerf hit with mod 5. ;)

Unfortunately the OP has neglected to see the trend over the last 2 years as content is slowing down significantly; not speeding up.

However, in Turbine's defense,it seems the primary focus of late is to draw new players in (as rightfully they should) at the expense of changing the look and feel of the game. While we may feel offended by this upfront, if they can successfully attract a large number of new players, it only stands to make the game better. By default this is not an easy game to master. Most veteran players have had at least a year or two to get to the point of knowing the game inside and out. New players, with little or no pnp experience, can find this game and the community a little difficult to navigate. While Turbine cannot reprogram the game's community, they can make adjustments to make it more globally friendly to people who did not play tabletop dnd in the garage during high school with Weazer. :) Yeah, it changes things, but the core of the game remains the same; which is a pretty **** good game despite the lack of content. Whatever Turbine needs to do to get some new players is fine by me. Then, maybe when they get some more cash, we can return to the glory days of monthly content updates! Or at least quarterly.... This combat engine and game play is too good to let die out. I hate the "other" games with cookie cutter builds, lack of multiclassing, lack of thought clones of each other.

[Grimdiegn]

and and... they're gonna give us the wish spell, and fly, and levitate, and maybe even mirror image.... and don't forget polymorph self, baleful polymorph, and time stop!

sorry let my caster fantasies out again

What's so great about time stop?

[Kalari]

*hugs* Draccus at least your holding on to that optimism

I love time stop not sure how they could properly implement it in game and not have it be over powering.

In the games I play everyone but the caster is frozen, it then lets you prepare and aim spells (beneficial) or non at the mobs and your party. Time restarts and your spells land on their targets as the battle resumes. I could see it being used in a hairy situation where you need time to rez someone (sorcs could really utilize this with umd). But that being said I just dont see how it could be done fairly in this game. And many groups would get grumpy about being frozen during a battle so a caster could get spells off.

Still one of my favorite spells specially combo with things like wail of the banshee, gate and some other nasty spells that brings the boom to the mobs when time resumes.

[GhostNull]

and time stop!


It's already in-game under a different name, lag. Players will stop completely in their tracks, can't move or attack yet the mobs can still move around and hit players.

[kingfisher]

i would agree that a major content mod will follow mod9. i believe that there will be 12 quests in the new area, but we wont see all of them in mod9. i hope that between mods 9 and 10 we will see 15 new quests. i want to believe that the dracolich is in production and that we wil see this bad boy soon, like mod11 this year soon.

yes i am drinking the kool-aid this morning.

[Kylstrem]

It's obvious the reason for lack of content if you just keep track of the number of different devs that post on here.

Phax, Eladrin, Codog, MadFloyd, Keeper, Glin, Flimsyfirewood, Nanook

Each of these have different jobs, i.e. not all are working on new dungeons... you have people just in charge of the servers, the updater, the AI, etc.

And just think about the amount of art assets that go in to the game. Those probably take the most time and those are considered real devs... they are artists.

DDO has a skeleton crew working on it and that's the reason why it's over a year between Mods.

[dasein18]

Could also be, that like many businesses, they are looking at the economy... analyzing how many players have canceled to save $$ (I have heard this a lot lately), and figured that the timing of the launch is not best. Maybe delay till the consumer confidence starts to recover?

[Aspenor]

What's so great about time stop?

Uh, you mean the single most overpowered level 9 spell you can cast with a mere standard action?

Using a greater metamagic rod of maximize spell, an arcane caster simply needs to win initiative (and what level 20 arcane caster loses initiative in an important fight? the answer is NONE) to act freely for 5 rounds with no interruptions, and then just throws his dice across the room and jumps up and down, shouting "I WIN!!!"

Or, if you feel like gambling, use a greater metamagic rod of extending and roll 1d4+1. You get at least 4 rounds, and maximum 10 rounds of free actions.

Wouldn't be quite as powerful in DDO, but still, it's essentially the end of the encounter before it even starts.

[Mindspat]

This combat engine and game play is too good to let die out.


Finding a good tactile strategy game with a high level of character dynamics is impossible when you look beyond DDO. If anyone has recomendations I would love to give them a try.

Turbine's main fault is the intentional refusal to communicate with the fans on the direction, progress and development of the game they subscribe to. There's an old saying, don't bite the hand that feeds you.

[Draccus]

Turbine's main fault is the intentional refusal to communicate with the fans on the direction, progress and development of the game they subscribe to.

Hey, that's not true! Sure, there are pages and pages and pages of threads on this board asking for direction, progress, timing, or ANY information about the future of the game. And Tarrant has replied...today! Of course, he chose to ignore the 200 well-written, fact-based, data-driven posts and respond to the one post that said "Hey, Turbine, you're great!"

Pretty pathetic and transparent, imo.

[Borror0]

Wouldn't be quite as powerful in DDO, but still, it's essentially the end of the encounter before it even starts.
Well, we have more spell points...

[Aspenor]

Well, we have more spell points...

True, but you can't do direct damage to other creatures while still in time stop, nor can you use any spells that would directly effect your enemies. This severely limits your options in DDO.

A PnP wizard should use time stop something like this. (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=10582589)

[Mindspat]

Hey, that's not true! Sure, there are pages and pages and pages of threads on this board asking for direction, progress, timing, or ANY information about the future of the game. And Tarrant has replied...today! Of course, he chose to ignore the 200 well-written, fact-based, data-driven posts and respond to the one post that said "Hey, Turbine, you're great!"

Pretty pathetic and transparent, imo.

Dres, when are you going give EVE Online a go?

There are other's who've been jumping ship (pun intended) to EVE Online and it's starting to look as if there's quite a few made up of Ghallanda players. The communication by CCP on the contiuned development and future direction of EVE is unprecedented. You really don't think the game is doing so damned well 'cs everyone just like's blowing each up with spaceships do you? ;)

[Thorboar]

It was 4:20 day yesterday.....

[chester99]

It seems the number one disappointment with what we know about Mod9 is the apparent lack of content (please look up the definition of the word apparent before posting "you don't know if that's all the content"). Four quests and a raid seems to be a bit thin after 8 months; I agree. But maybe it's not as bad as it sounds. Stick with me a moment...this is all my guess.

Mod 9 content was ready to go live at the Anniversary in early March.
Turbine wanted to test the TDM with Mod9 but it had tons of technical issue so they delayed Mod9's launch.
During the delay, the content team shifted work to Mod10. They were done with Mod9, after all.
Turbine's now working on fixing the TDM issues before launching Mod9.
When it's finished, Mod9 will launch. Then...
Mod10 launches VERY soon after Mod9. I'm thinking it will be less than two months before it goes onto the test server.
Mod10, then, contains all the shiney new content they've been working on for 8+ months! Loads of quests! Multiple raids! New Gear!

(Trying to be optimistic...)

I like this plan. I want to be a part of this plan. Make it so!

[barabel]

This one is a bit Epic

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0638.html

[Aspenor]

This one is a bit Epic

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0638.html

lol pwnd

[VirieSquichie]

It seems the number one disappointment with what we know about Mod9 is the apparent lack of content (please look up the definition of the word apparent before posting "you don't know if that's all the content"). Four quests and a raid seems to be a bit thin after 8 months; I agree. But maybe it's not as bad as it sounds. Stick with me a moment...this is all my guess.

Mod 9 content was ready to go live at the Anniversary in early March.
Turbine wanted to test the TDM with Mod9 but it had tons of technical issue so they delayed Mod9's launch.
During the delay, the content team shifted work to Mod10. They were done with Mod9, after all.
Turbine's now working on fixing the TDM issues before launching Mod9.
When it's finished, Mod9 will launch. Then...
Mod10 launches VERY soon after Mod9. I'm thinking it will be less than two months before it goes onto the test server.
Mod10, then, contains all the shiney new content they've been working on for 8+ months! Loads of quests! Multiple raids! New Gear!

(Trying to be optimistic...)

Nice theory, and I would love to suspend my current pessimism long enough to join in...but I'm all out of optimism so I'll just lurk around and sulk until the game gets some CPR.


you putting money where this post is?

We all are. Approx. $15/month, less for the longer-term-plan subscribers.

[Minor_Threat]

Could also be, that like many businesses, they are looking at the economy... analyzing how many players have canceled to save $$ (I have heard this a lot lately), and figured that the timing of the launch is not best. Maybe delay till the consumer confidence starts to recover?

In most cases, home gaming seems to be defying the current economic slump, along with alcohol and prophylactics.

Generally speaking keeping current customers is always cheaper then trying to get new ones. Unless of course you don't plan on adding anything new, this will atleast give you a new customer base that won't get bored too soon.

[baylensman]

Didn't they say on the ten ton hammer interview that more content was being loaded to nashs' lama in the next week. I'd say that its more likely that content is going to dribble out every couple of weeks on the test server to make sure that part a doesn't implode with the addiiton of part d and so on, because of the changes in game play that are in mod 9. Mod 10 will follow quickly (in turbine speak about three months) that is just content driven

[Draccus]

Dres, when are you going give EVE Online a go?

There are other's who've been jumping ship (pun intended) to EVE Online and it's starting to look as if there's quite a few made up of Ghallanda players. The communication by CCP on the contiuned development and future direction of EVE is unprecedented. You really don't think the game is doing so damned well 'cs everyone just like's blowing each up with spaceships do you? ;)

Sorry, Mind, but I just cannot STAND science fiction in any form. Yeah, I'm a bad geek. I hated Star Wars and despise the entire series past the very first movie. I think Star Trek is one of the worst shows ever made. I also don't like comic books. *shrug*

I limit my geekiness to medieval fantasy with a little Monte Python and the Holy Grail thrown in :)

[Lerincho]

Sorry, Mind, but I just cannot STAND science fiction in any form. Yeah, I'm a bad geek. I hated Star Wars and despise the entire series past the very first movie. I think Star Trek is one of the worst shows ever made. I also don't like comic books. *shrug*

I limit my geekiness to medieval fantasy with a little Monte Python and the Holy Grail thrown in :)

Are you sure you're suppose to be playing DDO then? After all those comments, believe your geek card was revoked. May have to launch official investigation into whether you should be allowed to remain.

[Draccus]

Are you sure you're suppose to be playing DDO then? After all those comments, believe your geek card was revoked. May have to launch official investigation into whether you should be allowed to remain.

I'm playing on a temporary visa. I also have a forged National Star Trek Convention badge that I show when federal investigators raid my house looking for Illegal Gamers.

[dasein18]

Good points, gaming is really a cheap ($15/month unlimited play time!) form of enterainment.

[Murderface]

if they would stop trying to improve/nerf/balance/fixbugs they could come out with alot more content

i hope one day when turbine is happy with the game as is, and the community isnt bixxxin about nerfing this or that blah blah blah. they could just str8 up create a bunch of maps like 12-20 quests and like 3 explorer areas maybe a new part of town.


game seriously needs new blood as in content.....since gianthold yall aint been so up on the creating lots of quests things which is sad and disapointing

use a rule of thumb like 12 capped lvl quests per mod or this game is just gonna die

im really not kidding. i love this game, but im terribly bored

im trying to help you help me give this game more shelf life turbine. 5 stinking quests for 4 levels thats kinda goofy dont you think?

and i also think there should be a full pvp area just for those types of partys who would like to kill other partys without being teleported to a map from goldeneye . (please dont flame me)

[Akhad_Durn]

It seems the number one disappointment with what we know about Mod9 is the apparent lack of content (please look up the definition of the word apparent before posting "you don't know if that's all the content"). Four quests and a raid seems to be a bit thin after 8 months; I agree. But maybe it's not as bad as it sounds. Stick with me a moment...this is all my guess.


My main issue is that it’s on a "test" server, and is expected to be there for a while. I don't want to play on the test server... I don't get enough quest time as it is much less playing in an environment which might be reset at any time. Beyond all that... I test software for a living, finding bugs and reporting bugs during my down time is at best unappealing.

I can't help feeling that people on the live servers have gone into wait mode, waiting on the mod 9. This use to happen a couple days before each mod release, now it’s been a couple weeks like this. I've resorted to soloing stuff to keep the fun going, but that’s getting boring... I want to quest with people, and they're just not there right now.



Mod 9 content was ready to go live at the Anniversary in early March.
Turbine wanted to test the TDM with Mod9 but it had tons of technical issue so they delayed Mod9's launch.
During the delay, the content team shifted work to Mod10. They were done with Mod9, after all.
Turbine's now working on fixing the TDM issues before launching Mod9.
When it's finished, Mod9 will launch. Then...
Mod10 launches VERY soon after Mod9. I'm thinking it will be less than two months before it goes onto the test server.
Mod10, then, contains all the shiney new content they've been working on for 8+ months! Loads of quests! Multiple raids! New Gear!

(Trying to be optimistic...)

I wish I could believe this, but the simplest answer is usually the right one. Mod9 isn't out on live because the changes they're making are too fundamental to game play to not be accepted by the community before being released. I'm not talking about transmuting and WoP, those are game balancing, so will happen even if we don't like them (I actually think they're appropriate but should have come much sooner).

I don’t really care about the content, I just want more people to play with! Get the Mod out so that there'll be people around again.

[The10man]

Could also be, that like many businesses, they are looking at the economy... analyzing how many players have canceled to save $$ (I have heard this a lot lately), and figured that the timing of the launch is not best. Maybe delay till the consumer confidence starts to recover?

This I hope is wrong because if they are letting more people leave waiting for "the right time" the game would die long before consumer confidence raises to the level that the average consumer starts looking for another monthly bill.

[Alavatar]

Vast and Mysterious has been announced!

DDO2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0) will be coming out in time for Christmas!!!

[Kalari]

doesnt like comics? :( I may have to take back my hug lol

[Grimdiegn]

Uh, you mean the single most overpowered level 9 spell you can cast with a mere standard action?

Using a greater metamagic rod of maximize spell, an arcane caster simply needs to win initiative (and what level 20 arcane caster loses initiative in an important fight? the answer is NONE) to act freely for 5 rounds with no interruptions, and then just throws his dice across the room and jumps up and down, shouting "I WIN!!!"

Or, if you feel like gambling, use a greater metamagic rod of extending and roll 1d4+1. You get at least 4 rounds, and maximum 10 rounds of free actions.

Wouldn't be quite as powerful in DDO, but still, it's essentially the end of the encounter before it even starts.

When everyone is invulnerable to your spells and attacks during that time, I don't see it as a win button at all.

[bellack]

*hugs* Draccus at least your holding on to that optimism

I love time stop not sure how they could properly implement it in game and not have it be over powering.

In the games I play everyone but the caster is frozen, it then lets you prepare and aim spells (beneficial) or non at the mobs and your party. Time restarts and your spells land on their targets as the battle resumes. I could see it being used in a hairy situation where you need time to rez someone (sorcs could really utilize this with umd). But that being said I just dont see how it could be done fairly in this game. And many groups would get grumpy about being frozen during a battle so a caster could get spells off.

Still one of my favorite spells specially combo with things like wail of the banshee, gate and some other nasty spells that brings the boom to the mobs when time resumes.

The Neverwinter Nights game does Timestop pretty well.

[Kalari]

The Neverwinter Nights game does Timestop pretty well.

I loved using it in Baldur's gate II :)

[Aspenor]

When everyone is invulnerable to your spells and attacks during that time, I don't see it as a win button at all.

So, what you're saying is, you didn't read the link in this post. (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2161572&postcount=20)

In the hands of a player that actually knows how to utilize a time stop, it's got I WIN written all over it.

Or, you could always just lob maximized delayed blast fireballs throughout the area occupied by the enemy. Assuming you roll a 1 holding the Greater Metamagic Rod of Extend (4 rounds of free actions) once you come out of time stop you deal:
Maximized 20d6 damage * 4 DBF's
120 * 4 = 480 points of fire damage

and that's without any other feats, throw in arcane thesis, practical metamagic, easy metamagic, and empower spell as well (maximized/empowered dbf's at spell level 7) with two Greater Metamagic Rods of Twin Spell and two Greater Metamagic Rods of Quicken spell you're pushing out two delayed blasts per round, thus you pour out, on average, between 1000 and 2000+ damage before anybody else ever gets to act. It's all explained here. (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=18382224&postcount=185)

Remember, delayed blast occurs AFTER the time stop, and thus is unaffected by the restrictions on the spell.

[Grimdiegn]

So, what you're saying is, you didn't read the link in this post. (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2161572&postcount=20)

In the hands of a player that actually knows how to utilize a time stop, it's got I WIN written all over it.

Or, you could always just lob maximized delayed blast fireballs throughout the area occupied by the enemy. Assuming you roll a 1 holding the Greater Metamagic Rod of Extend (4 rounds of free actions) once you come out of time stop you deal:
Maximized 20d6 damage * 4 DBF's
120 * 4 = 480 points of fire damage

and that's without any other feats, throw in arcane thesis, practical metamagic, easy metamagic, and empower spell as well (maximized/empowered dbf's at spell level 7) with two Greater Metamagic Rods of Twin Spell and two Greater Metamagic Rods of Quicken spell you're pushing out two delayed blasts per round, thus you pour out, on average, between 1000 and 2000+ damage before anybody else ever gets to act. It's all explained here. (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=18382224&postcount=185)

Remember, delayed blast occurs AFTER the time stop, and thus is unaffected by the restrictions on the spell.

In certain situation against certain creatures, yea a win. You make it seem like the opponents you will be facing when you can cast 9th level spells are defenseless and stupid. A simple antimagic shield makes everything you said null, not to mention immunity to fire.

[Aspenor]

In certain situation against certain creatures, yea a win. You make it seem like the opponents you will be facing when you can cast 9th level spells are defenseless and stupid. A simple antimagic shield makes everything you said null, not to mention immunity to fire.

Antimagic field doesn't help you against the pair of CR 30 dragons in the first link. The creatures weren't summoned, they were gated in to the plane. It also doesn't help you get past a prismatic sphere.

Since a calling spell (Gate) was used, these monsters are not subject to being dispelled by the antimagic field, and may destroy anybody they wish to within the field. Using an antimagic field in that situation will get you blasted with a breath weapon.

Besides, how often are you fighting anything with an antimagic field in the first place?

[Lerincho]

Antimagic field doesn't help you against the pair of CR 30 dragons in the first link. The creatures weren't summoned, they were gated in to the plane. It also doesn't help you get past a prismatic sphere.

Since calling spell (Gate) was used, these monsters are not subject to being dispelled by the antimagic field, and may destroy anybody they wish to within the field. Using an antimagic field in that situation will get you blasted with a breath weapon.

Besides, how often are you fighting anything with an antimagic field in the first place?

well there was this one time at band camp.......







sorry had to do it. back to your arguement.

[Alavatar]

and that's without any other feats, throw in arcane thesis, practical metamagic, easy metamagic, and empower spell as well (maximized/empowered dbf's at spell level 7) with two Greater Metamagic Rods of Twin Spell and two Greater Metamagic Rods of Quicken spell you're pushing out two delayed blasts per round, thus you pour out, on average, between 1000 and 2000+ damage before anybody else ever gets to act. It's all explained here. (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=18382224&postcount=185)


This situation confuses me. You still need at least one hand free for the Somatic component of the spells, so how can you wield two, let alone four, metamagic rods?

[Grimdiegn]

Antimagic field doesn't help you against the pair of CR 30 dragons in the first link. The creatures weren't summoned, they were gated in to the plane. It also doesn't help you get past a prismatic sphere.

Since a calling spell (Gate) was used, these monsters are not subject to being dispelled by the antimagic field, and may destroy anybody they wish to within the field. Using an antimagic field in that situation will get you blasted with a breath weapon.

Besides, how often are you fighting anything with an antimagic field in the first place?



I guess the DM's you play with let you win or didn't know how to challenge a group of high level players because their is always a bigger fish. As a DM I can kill a party within the rules as I'm going to be putting you up against NPC's that are better than you. I also like the first post where you say a high level caster will always win initiative. Like the 30th level caster that a party will be facing will be sleeping when you find them and you wont have to use ANY of your spells just getting through his minions and defenses.

So your telling me you need to have a clone in a bag for it to be a great spell? Please. So how about you do all this against a high level caster and then find out it was HIS clone?

Yes a high level caster is the shiz in pnp and can of course kill a level 20 fighter. Who said they couldn't? They can do a lot, but like I said, time stop is a nice spell but not the total win button like you said it is.

[Zuldar]

Now if you wanted to cast time stop, the best way to do it would be to take the mystic theurge prestige class and use the divine metamagic feat to cast a persitant time stop. Then it would last 24 hours.

[Grimdiegn]

This situation confuses me. You still need at least one hand free for the Somatic component of the spells, so how can you wield two, let alone four, metamagic rods?

You can get past the component problem for DBF with a meta magic feat that also raises the spell slot by one.

It always seems like the planets need to be aligned whenever players say they can do these kinds of things but never take into account that the opposition can also do these things. Like a party of level 20's is going to be up against kobolds. :p

[Aspenor]

I guess the DM's you play with let you win or didn't know how to challenge a group of high level players because their is always a bigger fish. As a DM I can kill a party within the rules as I'm going to be putting you up against NPC's that are better than you. I also like the first post where you say a high level caster will always win initiative. Like the 30th level caster that a party will be facing will be sleeping when you find them and you wont have to use ANY of your spells just getting through his minions and defenses.

So your telling me you need to have a clone in a bag for it to be a great spell? Please. So how about you do all this against a high level caster and then find out it was HIS clone?

Yes a high level caster is the shiz in pnp and can of course kill a level 20 fighter. Who said they couldn't? They can do a lot, but like I said, time stop is a nice spell but not the total win button like you said it is.
First of all, a level 30 caster is a single day encounter for a group of level 20s. Expecting them to fight through a bunch of minions and THEN fight a level 30 is bad DMing, pure and simple.

Any DM can pull the "rocks fall, everyone dies" ****, but that doesn't mean it's fair or that he's a good DM.

[Aspenor]

Now if you wanted to cast time stop, the best way to do it would be to take the mystic theurge prestige class and use the divine metamagic feat to cast a persitant time stop. Then it would last 24 hours.

why bother? take incantrix and do it with a spellcraft check.

[Grimdiegn]

First of all, a level 30 caster is a single day encounter for a group of level 20s. Expecting them to fight through a bunch of minions and THEN fight a level 30 is bad DMing, pure and simple.

Not when the chars are doing things like using multiple meta magic rods, clones in bags and generally outfitting themselves to the max.

When players take advantage of the rules, so does a good DM. It's got to be challenging.

[Aspenor]

Not when the chars are doing things like using multiple meta magic rods, clones in bags and generally outfitting themselves to the max.

When players take advantage of the rules, so does a good DM. It's got to be challenging.

Theres a major difference between "taking advantage of the rules" and "bad DMing."

Level 25 caster, okay. Level 30, just plain bad form unless you are planning to either purposely kill or incarcerate.

[Grimdiegn]

Theres a major difference between "taking advantage of the rules" and "bad DMing."

Level 25 caster, okay. Level 30, just plain bad form unless you are planning to either purposely kill or incarcerate.

Sorry I may have overstated with the level 30 NPC but I usually have more players than I need that want to join a campaign and regularly run with 6 or 7 player chars. In a normal 4 - 5 yea, 30 would be high.

Beyond that though, as you seem to want to move the conversation off the original discussion, I stand by my statement that time stop is not a game breaker and automatic win button.

A creative DM can counter anything creative players do. We're using the same rules.

[Aspenor]

Sorry I may have overstated with the level 30 NPC but I usually have more players than I need that want to join a campaign and regularly run with 6 or 7 player chars. In a normal 4 - 5 yea, 30 would be high.

Beyond that though, as you seem to want to move the conversation off the original discussion, I stand by my statement that time stop is not a game breaker and automatic win button.

A creative DM can counter anything creative players do. We're using the same rules.

Despite the truth in the fact that a creative DM can USUALLY create a challenge even when players get outlandishly creative, there will always be something that happens that you didn't plan for.

It won't happen all the time, but it will happen sometimes.

And yeah I wouldn't DM for more than 5 people. Beyond 5, the action economy just gets too out of wack for balanced gaming. I wasn't trying to change the course of the discussion, but rather was continuing on a train of thought.

[Grimdiegn]

And yeah I wouldn't DM for more than 5 people. Beyond 5, the action economy just gets too out of wack for balanced gaming. I wasn't trying to change the course of the discussion, but rather was continuing on a train of thought.

Aint that the truth. I'm currently setting up a campaign with Luther and Shecky playing and I'm limiting it to 6 at the table (me and 5 players) as I'm getting old and don't have the energy anymore. :p

[Grimdiegn]

Despite the truth in the fact that a creative DM can USUALLY create a challenge even when players get outlandishly creative, there will always be something that happens that you didn't plan for.

It won't happen all the time, but it will happen sometimes.

I applaud that kind of play in my players as I really try to learn their chars strengths and weakness's and try to give them a campaign that will keep them interested.

[jakeelala]

What's so great about time stop?

time stop would be like...Hold EVERYTHING.

[Aspenor]

Aint that the truth. I'm currently setting up a campaign with Luther and Shecky playing and I'm limiting it to 6 at the table (me and 5 players) as I'm getting old and don't have the energy anymore. :p

Well hot **** say hi to ol' Shecky and Luth for me, will ya?

I'm DMing a game for Yyrm and some RL intown buddies....luckily they don't have quite the detailed cheese knowledge I have...and when I'm a player I go easy on the DM.

[Ollathir]

It seems the number one disappointment with what we know about Mod9 is the apparent lack of content (please look up the definition of the word apparent before posting "you don't know if that's all the content"). Four quests and a raid seems to be a bit thin after 8 months; I agree. But maybe it's not as bad as it sounds. Stick with me a moment...this is all my guess.

Mod 9 content was ready to go live at the Anniversary in early March.
Turbine wanted to test the TDM with Mod9 but it had tons of technical issue so they delayed Mod9's launch.
During the delay, the content team shifted work to Mod10. They were done with Mod9, after all.
Turbine's now working on fixing the TDM issues before launching Mod9.
When it's finished, Mod9 will launch. Then...
Mod10 launches VERY soon after Mod9. I'm thinking it will be less than two months before it goes onto the test server.
Mod10, then, contains all the shiney new content they've been working on for 8+ months! Loads of quests! Multiple raids! New Gear!

(Trying to be optimistic...)


Hey since we're dreamin here, how bout a cross game competition, (PvP if you like), between DDO and LotR. Winner gets new content.

[Grimdiegn]

Well hot **** say hi to ol' Shecky and Luth for me, will ya?

I'm DMing a game for Yyrm and some RL intown buddies....luckily they don't have quite the detailed cheese knowledge I have...and when I'm a player I go easy on the DM.

I will do that. Luther is buying a house and should be closing some time next month. He's still playing War with Wicked. Shecky is playing War also but has stated many times he misses DDO and may come back for mod 9.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

What's so great about time stop?

For up to 5 rounds you can buff, set up defensive spells, delayed offensive spells, summon allies, teleport away, set traps, its a really nice spell.

Timestop + contingency makes a caster almost impossible to kill.

[bellack]

Could also be, that like many businesses, they are looking at the economy... analyzing how many players have canceled to save $$ (I have heard this a lot lately), and figured that the timing of the launch is not best. Maybe delay till the consumer confidence starts to recover?

Yet LOTR is doing good.

[bellack]

Uh, you mean the single most overpowered level 9 spell you can cast with a mere standard action?

Using a greater metamagic rod of maximize spell, an arcane caster simply needs to win initiative (and what level 20 arcane caster loses initiative in an important fight? the answer is NONE) to act freely for 5 rounds with no interruptions, and then just throws his dice across the room and jumps up and down, shouting "I WIN!!!"

Or, if you feel like gambling, use a greater metamagic rod of extending and roll 1d4+1. You get at least 4 rounds, and maximum 10 rounds of free actions.

Wouldn't be quite as powerful in DDO, but still, it's essentially the end of the encounter before it even starts.

You have not played D&D with us. In our campaigns the bad guys could win that initiative (and often have) in a important fight. We don't fudge dice or give the PC's a break. We are pretty hard core. And if we catch a DM fudging dice he/she gets one warning and if the DM does it again then he/she is demoted to player. Its no fun playing a game when the odds are stacked in your favor. Yes we have a lot of character deaths but that is how we like it. And the bad guys can use Time Stop too against us and it is pretty devestating.

[Thame]

Actually, I think that nerf hit with mod 5. ;)

Unfortunately the OP has neglected to see the trend over the last 2 years as content is slowing down significantly; not speeding up.

However, in Turbine's defense,it seems the primary focus of late is to draw new players in (as rightfully they should) at the expense of changing the look and feel of the game. While we may feel offended by this upfront, if they can successfully attract a large number of new players, it only stands to make the game better. By default this is not an easy game to master. Most veteran players have had at least a year or two to get to the point of knowing the game inside and out. New players, with little or no pnp experience, can find this game and the community a little difficult to navigate. While Turbine cannot reprogram the game's community, they can make adjustments to make it more globally friendly to people who did not play tabletop dnd in the garage during high school with Weazer. :) Yeah, it changes things, but the core of the game remains the same; which is a pretty **** good game despite the lack of content. Whatever Turbine needs to do to get some new players is fine by me. Then, maybe when they get some more cash, we can return to the glory days of monthly content updates! Or at least quarterly.... This combat engine and game play is too good to let die out. I hate the "other" games with cookie cutter builds, lack of multiclassing, lack of thought clones of each other.

Um we have it also what do you think all the dwarf tempest builds are? all the TWF? all cookie cutter flavor of the month builds....

[bellack]

Finding a good tactile strategy game with a high level of character dynamics is impossible when you look beyond DDO. If anyone has recomendations I would love to give them a try.

Turbine's main fault is the intentional refusal to communicate with the fans on the direction, progress and development of the game they subscribe to. There's an old saying, don't bite the hand that feeds you.

Well the Fallen Earth MMO has the twitch based combat (but it is set in the near future after the world has had a nuke war (Think Fallout 3.) Just got into the beta for it. So far it is good but I have only just started it.

[bellack]

Despite the truth in the fact that a creative DM can USUALLY create a challenge even when players get outlandishly creative, there will always be something that happens that you didn't plan for.

It won't happen all the time, but it will happen sometimes.

And yeah I wouldn't DM for more than 5 people. Beyond 5, the action economy just gets too out of wack for balanced gaming. I wasn't trying to change the course of the discussion, but rather was continuing on a train of thought.

Our group have a 4 player 1 DM make up. And each player plays from 2 to 3 PC's (I personally hate only playing one PC) And the DM's do make it challanging. The one thing to remember is that the 'cool' rules can be used by both sides. The NPC can also use Time Stop or have the best Figther build etc. One time when it was my turn to DM I had a 4 man 20th level party get defeated by a 17th level Wizard and his minions. Why? because when I created him for the module to be one of the bad guys I used the rules to full advantage (this was way before the characters got to 20th level, a year actully) and when the party encountered him and his minons he was able to use his spells and skills to thier full advantage. It was a tough fight. And no I was not out to 'kill' the PC's.

[Aspenor]

You have not played D&D with us. In our campaigns the bad guys could win that initiative (and often have) in a important fight. We don't fudge dice or give the PC's a break. We are pretty hard core. And if we catch a DM fudging dice he/she gets one warning and if the DM does it again then he/she is demoted to player. Its no fun playing a game when the odds are stacked in your favor. Yes we have a lot of character deaths but that is how we like it. And the bad guys can use Time Stop too against us and it is pretty devestating.

More often than not, there are clues that an important fight is coming. Any high level wizard with half a brain makes sure to cast Moment of Prescience (level 8) every single morning (duration: 1 hour per caster level i.e. all day). Unless the DM knows about this spell (many don't, but now you do) there is no way he's going to win init without fudging the dice.

Assuming easily bought gear and a build that's built for winning init (that's how I roll, I go first) the wizard will have 20 dex (+5), improved initiative (he took the no scribe scoll fighter sub level at level 1) for +4. We're already at +9. Throw in MoP and that's a 15-25 bonus on initiative alone, so the total will be 1d20 + (24-34).

So, no...when I play a high level caster, I don't lose initiative in important fights. There are numerous magical items that I haven't even mentioned yet that will take it into the 40's.

[Lerincho]

time stop would be like...Hold EVERYTHING.

oh so it's like a mega coffee break?

still not getting it, but oh well.

[Aspenor]

oh so it's like a mega coffee break?

still not getting it, but oh well.

Not getting what?

[Lerincho]

I will do that. Luther is buying a house and should be closing some time next month. He's still playing War with Wicked. Shecky is playing War also but has stated many times he misses DDO and may come back for mod 9.

hey i tried to bribe both by paying for this first month back for each. never responded :(

[Lerincho]

Not getting what?

sorry i forgot. haven't finished coffee yet. not all here.

[Grimdiegn]

hey i tried to bribe both by paying for this first month back for each. never responded :(

It's not the money, it's the drama. Both are two nice to tell people to ****off.

[Aspenor]

It's not the money, it's the drama. Both are two nice to tell people to ****off.

Drama? I never really envisioned those two being at the center of drama.

[Lerincho]

It's not the money, it's the drama. Both are two nice to tell people to ****off.

/ponders what it's like to be a nice person

We got rid of Davey what else they need :p

[Lerincho]

Drama? I never really envisioned those two being at the center of drama.

wouldn't say centered, more like dragged kicking and screaming by the hair and ears.

[Aspenor]

wouldn't say centered, more like dragged kicking and screaming by the hair and ears.

I guess that makes sense. I've been there before, and hated it. I, therefore, just don't get involved in that **** in-game.

[Grimdiegn]

More often than not, there are clues that an important fight is coming. Any high level wizard with half a brain makes sure to cast Moment of Prescience (level 8) every single morning (duration: 1 hour per caster level i.e. all day). Unless the DM knows about this spell (many don't, but now you do) there is no way he's going to win init without fudging the dice.

Assuming easily bought gear and a build that's built for winning init (that's how I roll, I go first) the wizard will have 20 dex (+5), improved initiative (he took the no scribe scoll fighter sub level at level 1) for +4. We're already at +9. Throw in MoP and that's a 15-25 bonus on initiative alone, so the total will be 1d20 + (24-34).

So, no...when I play a high level caster, I don't lose initiative in important fights. There are numerous magical items that I haven't even mentioned yet that will take it into the 40's.

I guess you are never surprised...:rolleyes:

[Grimdiegn]

wouldn't say centered, more like dragged kicking and screaming by the hair and ears.

They never have been the center of drama, no.

Whats up with the quote feature today?

[Lerincho]

They never have been the center of drama, no.

Whats up with the quote feature today?

oh i know. i know more way more than i want to about it.

was having issue yesterday and day before as well. seems to be forgetting beginning of quotes.

[Aspenor]

I guess you are never surprised...:rolleyes:

What, you don't cast chained Contact Other Plane every week? For shame Grim!!! For Shame!!!

[Grimdiegn]

What, you don't cast chained Contact Other Plane every week? For shame Grim!!! For Shame!!!

I don't see how that will help you with a failed surprise roll.

[Aspenor]

I don't see how that will help you with a failed surprise roll.

Questions:
- What is the first name of the person that is the largest threat to my person this week?
- What is the last name of the person that is the largest threat to my person this week?
- Will [insert name] attempt to surprise me?
- On what day will the surprise by [insert name] occur?
- What time of day will [insert enemy name] attempt to surprise me?
- In what type of building, if any, will the attempted surprise by [insert name] occur?
- What action on my part need be taken to prevent the attempted surprise by [insert name]?
so on and so forth until the threat of surprise is null and void.

[Lerincho]

you stole the questions I asked the psychic the other day!

[Grimdiegn]

Questions:
- What is the first name of the person that is the largest threat to my person this week?
- What is the last name of the person that is the largest threat to my person this week?
- Will [insert name] attempt to surprise me?
- On what day will the surprise by [insert name] occur?
- What time of day will [insert enemy name] attempt to surprise me?
- In what type of building, if any, will the attempted surprise by [insert name] occur?
so on and so forth until the threat of surprise is null and void.

And with all that you still have to make a die roll for surprise before every encounter.

[Aspenor]

And with all that you still have to make a die roll for surprise before every encounter.

No, you don't. Surprise isn't done by die rolls, it's a circumstance-based mechanic. Unless the individual has high hide/move silently skills, they will be detected in one way or another.

Or, you could just cast locate creature at the specified time of day, and not worry about it at all.

PS - I'm a big fan of divinations, the paranoid caster should make extensive use of them.

[SableShadow]

What, you don't cast chained Contact Other Plane every week? For shame Grim!!! For Shame!!!

Phear teh raw powah of a true caster! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wqd1sRft9T8)

[Grimdiegn]

Surprise

When a combat starts, if you are not aware of your opponents and they are aware of you, you’re surprised.
Determining Awareness

Sometimes all the combatants on a side are aware of their opponents, sometimes none are, and sometimes only some of them are. Sometimes a few combatants on each side are aware and the other combatants on each side are unaware.

Determining awareness may call for Listen checks, Spot checks, or other checks.

As a DM, there is no way I'm letting the party know EVERYTHING that is going to happen to then, no matter how many divination spells you cast, period.

I also laugh at players that tell me they are going to do something at a specific time within seconds. Like any of them are wearing a watch.

[Aspenor]

As a DM, there is no way I'm letting the party know EVERYTHING that is going to happen to then, no matter how many divination spells you cast, period.

Well, that's your prerogative. Players should be given a reason to use their abilities, and if you want to take that away, that's fine, a little silly, but fine.

You really shouldn't be penalized for playing smart, these things are part of the game, after all.

If you really wanted to prevent this from occurring, just give the enemy mind blank. However, in order to be permanently shielded, they'd need a permanent item of mind blank, which I would hope once defeated would be looted by your party members.

[Aspenor]

I also laugh at players that tell me they are going to do something at a specific time within seconds. Like any of them are wearing a watch.

I didn't say a "specific time." The Contact Other Plane spell would reveal a time of day such as:
Dawn
Morning
Noon
Afternoon
Dusk
Evening
Night
Midnight

Which would usually be fairly well known by the players.

[Grimdiegn]

Well, as Gygax once put it, bad things happen to players that abuse the rules. Saying you are chain casting all these divination spells every week will eventually get you attacked while doing just that. :D

Where is the fun in trying to know everything before it happens? If my players started to act like that I would just end the campaign.

Divination is great for giving the players a heads up so they can do some prep and I applaud creative thinking but I would never just hand them the module like you are suggesting.

[Grimdiegn]

I didn't say a "specific time." The Contact Other Plane spell would reveal a time of day such as:
Dawn
Morning
Noon
Afternoon
Dusk
Evening
Night
Midnight

Which would usually be fairly well known by the players.

No it's not. I know I can't tell exactly what time it is by looking at the sun, can you?

Those divination spells are also not infallible.

[Aspenor]

No it's not. I know I can't tell exactly what time it is by looking at the sun, can you?

Those divination spells are also not infallible.

I can usually tell the time within about an hour to a half an hour by using sun reference.

[Aspenor]

Divination is great for giving the players a heads up so they can do some prep and I applaud creative thinking but I would never just hand them the module like you are suggesting.

Well, there is a very distinct difference between knowing *everything* and knowing what will be the most dangerous threat within a certain time span.

[Grimdiegn]

Questions:
- What is the first name of the person that is the largest threat to my person this week?
- What is the last name of the person that is the largest threat to my person this week?
- Will [insert name] attempt to surprise me?
- On what day will the surprise by [insert name] occur?
- What time of day will [insert enemy name] attempt to surprise me?
- In what type of building, if any, will the attempted surprise by [insert name] occur?
- What action on my part need be taken to prevent the attempted surprise by [insert name]?
so on and so forth until the threat of surprise is null and void.

You send your mind to another plane of existence (an Elemental Plane or some plane farther removed) in order to receive advice and information from powers there. (See the accompanying table for possible consequences and results of the attempt.) The powers reply in a language you understand, but they resent such contact and give only brief answers to your questions. (All questions are answered with “yes,” “no,” “maybe,” “never,” “irrelevant,” or some other one-word answer.)

With these answer options I'm not sure you are going to get the information you think you will get. :D

[Aspenor]

With these answer options I'm not sure you are going to get the information you think you will get. :D
It's always a possibility, and that's what Moment of Prescience is for. ;) Just boost your INT check to the realm of unfailable, and contact the greatest deity on the list. There's only a 12% chance you don't get a true answer.

[Kalari]

lol Draccus see what you not being a true geek had done? Now your thread had turned into a whole nother topic where geeks debate the usefulness of a spell and other things.

You need more geekness stat, get this man some comic books and make him read till he like them *nod*

[Grimdiegn]

It's always a possibility, and that's what Moment of Prescience is for. ;) Just boost your INT check to the realm of unfailable, and contact the greatest deity on the list. There's only a 12% chance you don't get a true answer.

And a 1 is always a fail on your save. So sooner or later as you say you do this every week, you will be sitting with an 8 INT and waiting a few weeks to get better.

And what you have never rolled under 12%? The spell also states that they are ****ed off that you bothered them. It also says there may be other repercussions from doing this based on who you contact. Abusing a spell like contact the planes on a weekly basis would open a whole area to me as a DM to mess with your party.

[Alavatar]

No it's not. I know I can't tell exactly what time it is by looking at the sun, can you?

If you live your life on the road, or even go on the road every now and then, in a world where pocketwatches are not common, you can expect that the inhabitants of the world would be able to determine the time +/- half hour by the sun/moon position.

If you don't agree, then a Survival skill check would suffice.

[Grimdiegn]

If you live your life on the road, or even go on the road every now and then, in a world where pocketwatches are not common, you can expect that the inhabitants of the world would be able to determine the time +/- half hour by the sun/moon position.

If you don't agree, then a Survival skill check would suffice.

I guess you missed that part where I stated that players tell me they will do things within seconds of a set time. A combat round is 6 seconds. Tell me how knowing the time within a 1/2 hour helps?

[Aspenor]

And a 1 is always a fail on your save. So sooner or later as you say you do this every week, you will be sitting with an 8 INT and waiting a few weeks to get better.

And what you have never rolled under 12%? The spell also states that they are ****ed off that you bothered them. It also says there may be other repercussions from doing this based on who you contact. Abusing a spell like contact the planes on a weekly basis would open a whole area to me as a DM to mess with your party.

It's not a save, it's an intelligence check, which are not auto-fail on a 1.

And sure I've rolled under 12%. It's what makes the spell interesting and like gambling.

I also enjoy the idea of a ticked off deity.:D

[Alavatar]

I guess you missed that part where I stated that players tell me they will do things within seconds of a set time. A combat round is 6 seconds. Tell me how knowing the time within a 1/2 hour helps?

Many spells have durations of 10 min/level or 1 min/level. Cast the 10 min/level spells then extend the 1 min/level spells and you are good to go.

[jimmymac32409]

It seems the number one disappointment with what we know about Mod9 is the apparent lack of content (please look up the definition of the word apparent before posting "you don't know if that's all the content"). Four quests and a raid seems to be a bit thin after 8 months...
I so agree here. So many people are dead set on rants about the negative stuff about Mod 9. But we haven't seen any of the Mod 9 new content at all! How does any of you know it won't be the most uber quests ever. And 4 quests and a raid doesn't really mean much. Take the shroud. Is it JUST a raid or is it 5 quests rolled up into 1? What if all 5 of these new 'Devil Quests' all use a shroud type tech. Who knows how EPIC any of the new content might be. No one, that's who because no one has see it yet.

What seems apparent to me is the real reason for the Mod 9 preview. To show us all the new tech in it. And to get us to help beta test it. After all, this is the stuff that is going to effect gameplay DDO wide way more than any new content. That way the bugs are worked out as best as possible and Mod 9 live won't be riddled with problems that keeps us from playing at all. And make the live release a bad expierence like we have had with mods in the past.

Sorry to disapoint people who were expecting new content but looks like we all will just have to wait on that. So just because your one of the disapointed doesn't mean you have to go flaming content that you haven't even got a clue about!

[Grimdiegn]

It's not a save, it's an intelligence check, which are not auto-fail on a 1.

And sure I've rolled under 12%. It's what makes the spell interesting and like gambling.

I also enjoy the idea of a ticked off deity.:D

Yea but you make it sound like it's another win button. I'm only saying it can give advantages or maybe a disadvantage. Saying you will chain cast contact the planes on a weekly basis and expect it to help beyond the first one or two is not representing how it would really play out.

In any case it was fun banter and I'm off to get some things done.

Peace

[Chromus]

Uh, you mean the single most overpowered level 9 spell you can cast with a mere standard action?

Using a greater metamagic rod of maximize spell, an arcane caster simply needs to win initiative (and what level 20 arcane caster loses initiative in an important fight? the answer is NONE) to act freely for 5 rounds with no interruptions, and then just throws his dice across the room and jumps up and down, shouting "I WIN!!!"

Or, if you feel like gambling, use a greater metamagic rod of extending and roll 1d4+1. You get at least 4 rounds, and maximum 10 rounds of free actions.

Wouldn't be quite as powerful in DDO, but still, it's essentially the end of the encounter before it even starts.


As if a Level 20 caster should EVER lose a fight...