Difficulty Philosophy

[Thanimal]

So I've been riveted to the discussion around various ways in which Mod 9 is easier. (I personally haven't cared much about the nerfs that make it harder, although obviously those threads are hot, too.)

All of this has caused me to realize that nobody is really discussing the GOAL of these changes. In my experience, design in the absense of requirements is one the top few worst mistakes you can make in engineering.

So I began thinking about this. I guess I hope the dev team will weigh in with a complete list of goals for these changes, including both things to be improved and things to NOT make worse. But in advance of that, I'm going to make up a few of my own, and see if anybody wants to get into a very high level discussion of difficulty issues in DDO. I guess I feel ultimately this could be more useful than microscopic critiquing of the specific prototype system on Lamemania. (Of course, it would have been even that much more useful a few months ago, but we surely don't need any more threads complaining about lack of communication with the player base.)

To formulate things to fix, I need a list of things that are broken. Here are some things that I personally think are non-ideal in DDO (pre-Mod-9):
- The game is too hard for most new players, and can be ridiculously hard for someone who is not experienced in either MMOs or other D&D-based games.
- The game is too easy for veteran players, especially those who play a lot of hours per week. This is especialy true of low-level content.
- Soloing at the very lowest levels is so effective that grouping usually just slows down a veteran player, but soloing actually becomes too difficult at higher levels, or at least it results in such a dramatic slowing of your XP progression that if you can't get with a group for whatever reason, it's almost pointless to play anything but an encounter area.

The challenge here is that many ways to fix some of these actually make the others even worse. I believe several of the changes proposed in Mod 9 fall into this trap: Improve one problem but aggravate another one. What I would want to do is find changes to make that improve as many problems as possible, and create as few new problems as possible.

Let me first give an example of something Turbine did "recently" that fits this goal to a T: The pre-generated character paths. These make it much easier for an inexperience player to get going, but don't change the experience of a veteran player at all. SWEET!

[Thanimal]

Next, let me start brainstorming ideas. But I want to make it clear this is just ONE idea -- the purpose of my thread is to discuss GOALS related to difficulty and then to discuss a variety of ideas to achieve those goals.

One thing that I feel can improve some problems without creating any significant new ones is to significantly improve the rewards of low level quests. The way the game is set up now, a new player not only has a mediocre build (at best), and no quest knowledge, but his equipment also completely sucks! Any level 5 character I have is equipped with +3 armor, +2 Protection, +2 Resistance, optimal weapons of various types (including Muckbane, +1 Elemental Pure Good in bludgeoning and slashing, etc), a +1 stat item for every odd starting stat, a +3 shield (if I'm silly enough to make a build who uses one), and so on. All taken together, this makes me FAR more powerful than a new level 4 character.

Furthermore, it's sort of embarassing that even a brand new player is almost always best off to sell all the krap he gets in chests and then to go the Auction House and buy equipment that has a min level equal to his own. Surely the rewards of adventuring should beat out stuff you can buy in a store -- but that is only rarely the case.

Improving early game quest rewards should make the early game much easier for new players.

And critically, such a change has almost no impact on veteran players, because they max the equipment on all their lowbies already. And it might even be a small plus for them, as getting offered some bound +3 armor with a min level of 2 would be just a little exciting for a level 2 character, even if it's your 50th level 2 character.

I view many of the rewards in Korthos as a start on this. Many of those static rewards are quite good, and allow a new player to hit the ground running. I'd suggest continuing this through several more levels (at least).

[Lerincho]

no turbine's goals are abundantly clear. take more D&D out of DDO by over simplifying the game and make it easier to put to a joystick for xbox.

[bartcom2000]

no turbine's goals are abundantly clear. take more D&D out of DDO by over simplifying the game and make it easier to put to a joystick for xbox.


Bingo!!! Give Grampa a laxitive. QFT!

[Raithe]

I view many of the rewards in Korthos as a start on this. Many of those static rewards are quite good, and allow a new player to hit the ground running. I'd suggest continuing this through several more levels (at least).

The problem with Korthos is that eventually those static rewards stop being as useful as the character levels. That is where the player of that character in DDO is very likely to leave the game.

So when do you stop with the static gear?

If you take it all the way to cap, then there is no reason for someone who plays for loot to keep playing this game. Loot grinders will get their static gear and say "k, game over." Not to mention all the hardcore powergamers that will be PO'd that newbs have their same equipment.

The bottom line here is that the game needs to be fun independent of loot grinding. It would not be that hard to make that a reality in DDO.

[Thanimal]

I am going to stubbornly cling to my belief that Turbine is not actually trying to ruin this game.

[Thanimal]

The problem with Korthos is that eventually those static rewards stop being as useful as the character levels. That is where the player of that character in DDO is very likely to leave the game.

So when do you stop with the static gear?

Actually, that might be easy: Stop at the point where any ole veteran player can't get equally good equipment off the auction house without making a noticeable dent in his bank account. In other words: any equipment that just about everyone has to work for now, they should still have to work for. But any equipment that a veteran can get for essentially nothing and give to his new characters should at least be *possible* for a new player to get as well.


The bottom line here is that the game needs to be fun independent of loot grinding.

While that's clearly true, that doesn't mean that loot-grinding shouldn't ADD to the fun. It certiainly does for me, at least until it becomes tedious -- repeatedly running the same thing to *eventually* get some reward doesn't do it for me, but perhaps it gives some folks something to do.

[Lerincho]

I am going to stubbornly cling to my belief that Turbine is not actually trying to ruin this game.

i tried that, and continually get slapped in the face for it by turbine and other players. save the ulcer.

[Thanimal]

i tried that, and continually get slapped in the face for it by turbine and other players. save the ulcer.

LOL! Well, we'll see how long I can hold out, I guess... :)

[Hafeal]

no turbine's goals are abundantly clear. take more D&D out of DDO by over simplifying the game and make it easier to put to a joystick for xbox.

Well, I would argue that D&D, going back to it's roots, has been its own worst enemy. It overly complicated the game and then scaled back several times.

There is a balance and that line is always being re-drawn. To expect DDO to be different is to fly in the face of how pnp D&D has evolved from inception through 4.0.

That my 2 electrum anyway. :p

[Quanefel]

The problem with Korthos is that eventually those static rewards stop being as useful as the character levels. That is where the player of that character in DDO is very likely to leave the game.

So when do you stop with the static gear?

If you take it all the way to cap, then there is no reason for someone who plays for loot to keep playing this game. Loot grinders will get their static gear and say "k, game over." Not to mention all the hardcore powergamers that will be PO'd that newbs have their same equipment.

The bottom line here is that the game needs to be fun independent of loot grinding. It would not be that hard to make that a reality in DDO.



Tall poppy syndrome.

[Raithe]

Actually, that might be easy: Stop at the point where any ole veteran player can't get equally good equipment off the auction house without making a noticeable dent in his bank account. In other words: any equipment that just about everyone has to work for now, they should still have to work for. But any equipment that a veteran can get for essentially nothing and give to his new characters should at least be *possible* for a new player to get as well.


But I think you just undermined the purpose for providing the static loot in the first place. The purpose was to put players on relatively even ground for the purposes of content, and someone who has Dragon scale armor, Green Steel, and Dragontouched armor is not going to be challenged by content designed for those who haven't obtained all that gear.

I think DDO is actually going in the right direction with Mod 9, and a similar discussion to this thread is going on in the difficulty scaling thread.

The answer is segregation. Reduce difficulty on one end, increase it on the other and get similar players to run together.

[Thanimal]

But I think you just undermined the purpose for providing the static loot in the first place. The purpose was to put players on relatively even ground for the purposes of content, and someone who has Dragon scale armor, Green Steel, and Dragontouched armor is not going to be challenged by content designed for those who haven't obtained all that gear.

All I've claimed is to improved one area while not worsening any other area. Specifically I haven't touched any uber equipment so I can't have made that part any worse. Nor have I made that particular issue any better! But I'm not trying to fix *everything* with one idea. Each step that improves a problem without creating new ones is a good thing.


The answer is segregation. Reduce difficulty on one end, increase it on the other and get similar players to run together.

I'm intrigued, but I don't understand. Can you be more specific about how to accomplish segregation in DDO?

[Raithe]

I'm intrigued, but I don't understand. Can you be more specific about how to accomplish segregation in DDO?

This is what the developer's have done for Mod 9 (and really 7 and 8 too):

Low difficulty on one end:
1) Korthos - ridiculously easy, and static loot that makes the lower levels cake
2) STK trap fixes and the like
3) Easier for small groups (though still not as easy as for large ones)
4) Smart targetting and the like

Higher difficulty on the other:
1) Con damage nerf
2) Barb crit rage nerf
3) High SR, high hp mobs
4) Mod 9 difficulties yet unknown

Getting similar players to play together:
1) Reduce group size bias ("difficulty" scaling)
2) Increased chat and channel functions

[Thanimal]

This is what the developer's have done for Mod 9 (and really 7 and 8 too):

Low difficulty on one end:
1) Korthos - ridiculously easy, and static loot that makes the lower levels cake
2) STK trap fixes and the like
3) Easier for small groups (though still not as easy as for large ones)
4) Smart targetting and the like

Higher difficulty on the other:
1) Con damage nerf
2) Barb crit rage nerf
3) High SR, high hp mobs
4) Mod 9 difficulties yet unknown

Getting similar players to play together:
1) Reduce group size bias ("difficulty" scaling)
2) Increased chat and channel functions

Wow. This is BY FAR the most concise and intriguing justification of the Mod 9 changes that I've seen. It still really bothers me that the early game stuff risks becoming boneheadedly easy for veterans, but I'm feeling a lot more comfortable about that "loss" given the gains you've itemized above.

Indeed, that's EXACTLY the sort of goals lists from the development team that might have made sense of these changes from moment 0!

Thanks, Raithe.

[Raithe]

It still really bothers me that the early game stuff risks becoming boneheadedly easy for veterans,...

Yeah, but as bobbryan2 pointed out in the other thread, veterans can:

1) Skip Korthos
2) Start at level 2 and 3 quests
3) Run content 2 levels higher than their characters (3 starting at level 5) all the way to cap, where the Subterrane and associated raids are sitting.

They just need players of their same type = segregation.

[Borror0]

- The game is too hard for most new players, and can be ridiculously hard for someone who is not experienced in either MMOs or other D&D-based games.
- The game is too easy for veteran players, especially those who play a lot of hours per week. This is especialy true of low-level content.
- Soloing at the very lowest levels is so effective that grouping usually just slows down a veteran player, but soloing actually becomes too difficult at higher levels, or at least it results in such a dramatic slowing of your XP progression that if you can't get with a group for whatever reason, it's almost pointless to play anything but an encounter area.
To me, these represent the symptoms of three specific diseases:
Twinking will severely improve a character and will allow the player to solo things a new player could only dream of.
Major class imbalance when it comes to soloability
Older quests and low level quests were not designed for full parties, the latter for strategical reasons

The first disease is something that Turbine seem to be aware of, as reflected by the rewards found on Korthos. If they fully intend to solve the problem, they will have to continue doing the same. The best way to do this is to put these as rewards from chest quests, like WW, STK, TR, Delara's and Threnal's. Since that does not cover every levels, such rewards could also be put for flagging for older raids and some quests.

Of course, this problem stems from two specific problems:

The ML of loot obtained by players playing in a level-appropriated quest will be several levels bellow the character level.
Gear is easily transferable from an high level character to a low character.

Thus, the long term solution comes from fixing either of those two.

One solution would be to make all items bound on acquire, but this would represent a very drastic change and be quite unpopular. While many games did that, DDO didn't and that is one of the things that makes it unique. Doing this would probably upset more than needed. The ability to trade loot is one of the aspect quite a few enjoy, and that would be taken away at the same time.

The other solution is to revisit random loot because random loot is again behind the curve at higher level. This time, however, it is by being far behind any named loot one can obtain. Very few pieces of random loot are sought after anymore. Weapons are pretty much covered by Green Steel, +6 ability score are too common to be sought after, shields and armors have all better named or crafted equivalent, etc.

To summarize it, the solution to this can be done in three fronts:
Decent low level named loot with higher drop rate
Good static loot to help out
Random loot revision
There may be others, but those are the ones I see. The consequence of this action is that it will make the game easier to everyone, which may not be desirable. In response to that, Turbine could huge the scaling to up the challenge to where it belongs (hopefully that will be enough), assuming they can set an HP value higher than 100%. If not, then it means they will have to revisit many quests.

As for the second disease, I won't discuss it much because it has too many facet.

I'll only say that this one problem is a very complicated fix and may not be worth fixing, or that very little should be done to address this problem. DDO is designed for group PvE and for as long as that remains the most efficient way to play and that soloing is always possible, I don't think much should be invest in this aspect.

Finally the third disease can be fixed by scaling. What is ironical, those asking for more challenge are opposed to scaling when scaling is the best way that I can think of those address this problem. Clearly, most older dungeons were designed for "a group of four players" (as it was the intent pre-launch), the most recent dungeons are built around a six player group since that is what is most common now and most low level quests are too easy to not scare away new players or force them into only playing at the Solo difficulty (for meagre experience).

[Quanefel]

Yeah, but as bobbryan2 pointed out in the other thread, veterans can:

1) Skip Korthos
2) Start at level 2 and 3 quests
3) Run content 3 levels higher than their characters all the way to cap, where the Subterrane and associated raids are sitting.

They just need players of their same type = segregation.


So the segregating of vet players is a good thing?

[Raithe]

So the segregating of vet players is a good thing?

Yes.

[Quanefel]

Yes.


I have this feeling you do not care much for the vet, elite players all that much. Just a funny feeling.

[negative]

I'm intrigued, but I don't understand. Can you be more specific about how to accomplish segregation in DDO?
The existing normal/hard/elite settings.