Grandfathering Doesn't Work, Turbine!

[Strakeln]

I write this post in the hopes that Turbine will heed my warning before it is too late.

Straight to the point: "Grandfathering" (of anything) is not a good solution (for anything) in this game. As we approach mod 9, we learn of more and more grandfather clauses that will be in place. While I stand to benefit from every one I've seen so far, I don't think it is fair to the playerbase as a whole, nor is it wise for the future of the game.

First, the dropping of Crit Rage. I recognize the reality here... eventually, *all* crit rage barbs will disappear, as you will eventually make an enhancement change that triggers an auto-respec (example we were warned about this time: toughness enhancements and minos helm). However, "eventually" can be a long, long time away. So for that long, long time, the game as a whole will suffer as a result of the decision to grandfather:

- There will be a new class of "haves" (grandfathered crit rage barbs). By this, I am referring to having something that is unavailable for other, typically newer, players. I think it's fairly obvious that older players having things the newer players can never obtain can be discouraging to the new players considering joining.
- Development will have to consider how crit rage will interact with any new weapon introduced to the game. Developing software with a constant eye on compatibility with deprecated features is like walking around with a ball and chain. Regardless of how people feel regarding the crit rage change, I think most can agree that they don't want the devs hindered by features no longer available to the majority of the population.

Another glaring example of Grandfathering is the tome issue. While I don't like the ML change, it's not so much the change itself that bothers me... it's the assumption that this change will not be retroactively applied. I fully expect the following to be true:

1) Existing tomes will not have a retroactive ML applied. (likely)
2) Characters who have benefited from the "old tomes" (read: have more skill points) will not have those points retroactively taken away. (highly likely, **** near certain)

So once again, we have created two distinct classes: those who have, and those who have not. Note that there's nothing wrong with "not having" everything... the real problem is that the have-nots have no way to remedy this difference... no matter how much they farm or grind, they will NEVER be able to catch up/be as powerful/whatever.

Listen... I don't want to lose skill points on (most of) my characters. There's two that would very possibly be devastated by such a change, as each skill point was carefully allocated before the first die roll. But I'd much rather play a game with equal access for all than play a game where I'm more powerful than others simply because I happened to be around at the right time.

If my argument so far has not dissuaded you from Grandfathering, then let me add one more concern to your plate: you are heading down a slippery slope. Grandfather now, and you will soon see that Grandfathering is expected all the time.

I ask, for the sake of this game, please reconsider your position of allowing Grandfathering. We all should be playing on a level playing field, by the same rules, regardless of whether we started three years ago or yesterday.

[Sillk]

ML on Tomes!?

[DaveyCrockett]

ML on Tomes!?

+2 Tomes, ML 7

[WeaselKing]

Was not aware of this tome change, guess I need to start hoarding no ml +2 tomes.

[Khurse]

Uhmm... so by the same token should all GS ingredients,items (and for that matter all loot) be bound?
Or actually maybe have any available loot given to you with the typing in of a code?
After all if someone has time to run VOD 6 times a week, they have a real ingame advantage over someone who doesn't, then their toon with better gear will perorm better, be the preferred toon for more raids,get yet better gear all creating a more unlevel playing field.

If anyone wants to make all +2 tomes currently ingame have the ML7 so that the people who bought them all of the AH are stuck with them I'm fine with that, but the idea that it has to be done for a level playing field is stupid,given everything else that creates an imbalance.

[Kylstrem]

People should just learn to accept what they signed up for. There's a parable where a the owner of a vineyard went out at 6am and hired people to work for them. They agreed to be paid (to make it simple, I'll use today's money), say $40 for their day's work. They were happy with that.

Then he went at 9am and found some more people to work. They agreed to be paid $40 to work for the rest of the day.

He did the same at 12pm and 3pm with the same price.

The people that started at 6am got all upset because they were paid the same as the people who started at 3pm, even though the 3pm only had to work a couple of hours.

Now the 6am people were just giddy to work for the agreed upon price when they hired, but became bitter when they realized other people got a better deal than them.

the people who have been around for three years paying Turbine and keeping the game alive probably deserve something that someone who just came into the game gets.

Just like I get a Founder's Helm on every new toon I create.

People need to worry about themselves and not what everyone else has. The game is not competitive (except for the lame PvP, but that's not a major part of the game). If someone has something that someone else doesn't, then too bad for the person who doesn't have it. He/she needs to grow up. Life is not guaranteed to be fair.

No WHINERS!

[Ciphertazi]

Equal Opportunity Characters?

[Sillk]

Before we get too far into the discussion, can someone post a link, screen shot, etc. to confirm that +2 tomes are ML 7. (I wonder what +3 tomes would be).

I need another XP weekend to reroll a barb, eat +2 tomes, and get Crit Rage II!

[Cinwulf]

Huh, i'd be upset too, but I'd prob finish the day out and sign up for the 3pm shift the next day :)

edit: I believe +3 tomes are ml:11

[Khurse]

I'm thinking there's still more of an uneven playing field between toons that do or do not have +2 tomes available to them at all vs those that won't have them available until level seven.

[Kylstrem]

Huh, i'd be upset too,

So, your happiness is based on what happens to other people?

:D

[ghettoGenius]

People need to worry about themselves and not what everyone else has. The game is not competitive (except for the lame PvP, but that's not a major part of the game). If someone has something that someone else doesn't, then too bad for the person who doesn't have it. He/she needs to grow up. Life is not guaranteed to be fair.

No WHINERS!


I totally agree with this. However, what happens is that those people with more eventually complain about the level of difficulty (everything is now too easy for them), not enough new content or items (they have everything and have done everything), etc. When the devs start catering to this playerbase they can inadvertently alienate and handicap the other players.

I can care less of what others have really. Dont care how easy the game is for them now that theyre a greensteel machine, with grandfathered feats and enhancements. But when they come to the forum and influence the direction of the game to suit their limited perspectives (now sufficiently warped mind you), it can have a negative impact on the future development of the game.

I just hope the devs are smart enough to realize this and will plan accordingly. For everyones benefit.

[Demoyn]

I'm thinking there's still more of an uneven playing field between toons that do or do not have +2 tomes available to them at all vs those that won't have them available until level seven.

The point, though, is that new toons will NEVER be able to catch up. People that don't currently have +2 tomes can still eventually get them as it is today.

[Gryphton]

+2 tomes are indeed ML7, +3 tomes are indeed ML11.
I agree that it further seperates the new player base, but if they went in and killed all of their existing customers builds by retroactivly changing our stuff I think that would destroy the game all together.

[Angelus_dead]

By the way, anti-grandfathering is also bad, but in a different and lesser way: stuff like Green Steel Rapiers, Monks, and even 32 point builds.


Another glaring example of Grandfathering is the tome issue.
Add yet another entry to the list of reasons why respec is needed.

(Ironically, +2 tomes are an example of both grandfathering and anti-grandfathering)


People should just learn to accept what they signed up for.
By that reasoning, everything Turbine could ever do is unquestionably the right choice, and feedback is both irrelevant and blasphemous.

[Cinwulf]

So, your happiness is based on what happens to other people?

:D

No my happiness/satisfaction is based on being treated fairly. Like I said I'd finish the day but the next day I'd sign up for the later shift.

[Charlemagne2]

Relax,


Those massive numbers of new players will never get what those of us who have been playing and PAYING for the last 3 years have. I think turbine is making the right call.
If you never had it you'll never miss it! Its when you take it away is when all he11 breaks loose and people start dropping.

Quit worring about those future generation of maybes and worry about keeping the base happy that you already got. New players are not going to ever know what they missed! I will and I will be irate when they take it away!

So in closing, Stop the whining and move on!

[Strakeln]

Uhmm... so by the same token should all GS ingredients,items (and for that matter all loot) be bound?
Or actually maybe have any available loot given to you with the typing in of a code?
After all if someone has time to run VOD 6 times a week, they have a real ingame advantage over someone who doesn't, then their toon with better gear will perorm better, be the preferred toon for more raids,get yet better gear all creating a more unlevel playing field.

If anyone wants to make all +2 tomes currently ingame have the ML7 so that the people who bought them all of the AH are stuck with them I'm fine with that, but the idea that it has to be done for a level playing field is stupid,given everything else that creates an imbalance.Well if you really feel that way, what if the tables were turned?

What if they introduced a new feat that was really cool, but only people with accounts started after March '09 could take it? I assume you'd be okay with that?

OF COURSE NOT!

So why is it perfectly acceptable the other way around?

[Sillk]

Won't the only permanant change really be to an Intel Score +2, or 1 Skill Point.

So this would really affect Intimidate / Balance / Heal / UMD or something similar for Fighters, Barbs, Cleric etc who are trying to max a few different skills. (I'm going to assume that a decent Rogue, should be able to fill out their skills with a decent Intel.)

Other than UMD, this doesn't seem to be Game Breaking, or Have's vs Have Not's. Someone will be more able to heal at a shrine, or intimidate the boss better. I can see that you may not be able to use some items based on a lower UMD, but probably the only Have-Not you may run across.

[Strakeln]

I'm thinking there's still more of an uneven playing field between toons that do or do not have +2 tomes available to them at all vs those that won't have them available until level seven.Look, if you can't comprehend the difference between what I'm talking about and what you're saying in the quoted text above, you should probably excuse yourself from the conversation. It's not a difficult concept to understand.

[Borror0]

+2 Tomes, ML 7
+1 tomes, ML 3
+3 tomes, ML 11

[Strakeln]

By the way, anti-grandfathering is also bad, but in a different and lesser way: stuff like Green Steel Rapiers, Monks, and even 32 point builds.VERY good point. My ranger14/rog1/ftr1 (ftr level for tempest pre-req) would really love to have a level of monk instead of fighter... that whole AC thing and all... but monk didn't come out until well after I'd gone down that route. Funny enough, I took the fighter level because tempest came out waaaaay after that ranger was built, and I needed another feat to adapt.


Add yet another entry to the list of reasons why respec is needed.

(Ironically, +2 tomes are an example of both grandfathering and anti-grandfathering)Yep, and that may be the saving grace of the devs for this case. Presumably, the ML change is a step in the direction of full respec, since tomes (skill points) were such a point of contention. I'm guessing this plays into the eventual implementation... decide to respec, all eaten int tomes will not take effect until their ML, even if it was a "grandfathered" tome you ate, or a "grandfathered" toon.

[Strakeln]

Won't the only permanant change really be to an Intel Score +2, or 1 Skill Point.

So this would really affect Intimidate / Balance / Heal / UMD or something similar for Fighters, Barbs, Cleric etc who are trying to max a few different skills. (I'm going to assume that a decent Rogue, should be able to fill out their skills with a decent Intel.)

Other than UMD, this doesn't seem to be Game Breaking, or Have's vs Have Not's. Someone will be more able to heal at a shrine, or intimidate the boss better. I can see that you may not be able to use some items based on a lower UMD, but probably the only Have-Not you may run across.You are correct, we're talking about a few skill points here (7 at most, I think). Whether or not that is a big thing is a perception, and not one you or I can define for others. We can only state the way it makes us feel.

That said, I think you need to consider some of the more stretched builds. Try maintaining full rogue skills - plus the other necessary skills - with a splash rogue char sometime. Add that in with stat stretches and I think you can see how important those 7 points can be.

[Impaqt]

Did you call for the Overall removal of +2 Tomes when they were pulled from the loot tables back in Mod 2?

SO anyone who had Mod 1 +2 Tomes should of lost them and had tall their +2 Inherant bonus's revoked?

No? Oh.. ok....

[Strakeln]

Did you call for the Overall removal of +2 Tomes when they were pulled from the loot tables back in Mod 2?

SO anyone who had Mod 1 +2 Tomes should of lost them and had tall their +2 Inherant bonus's revoked?

No? Oh.. ok....Helpful as always, aren't you?

A person who put some thought into their posts could easily see the difference between your situation and the one we are quickly approaching... specifically, the temporary nature of your example, vs the permanency of mine. But I guess that's too much to ask.

[Impaqt]

Helpful as always, aren't you?

A person who put some thought into their posts could easily see the difference between your situation and the one we are quickly approaching... specifically, the temporary nature of your example, vs the permanency of mine. But I guess that's too much to ask.

lol, really? and waiting 6 levels to eat your +2 tomes isnt "Temporary"? The WORST thing that comes of the +2 tome changes is some characters are going to lose a WHopping 6 Skill Points.

[Khurse]

I admit I may be misunderstading your point.

As I see it, your idea is that toons created before mod 9 (or post mod9 with pre-ml tomes) will be decidedly inferior
to toons created after. I'm curious as to why- the only tome (as I see it) that would really have an effect is intelligence, +2 int will give you a single skill point a level. Therefore the pre mod 9 toons will have up to six (yes 6) skill points more than a toon created post mod9.
Every other kind of tome will be retroactive so at lvl 7 there will be no difference.

And I can't see having a couple more hit points, a +1 to hit, +1 to save DC etc being somehow an overwhelming advantage between levels 1-6. And even if there is a differnece what's it going to be? The new character doesn't lead the kill count? Requires an extra cure moderate wounds thrown on it between shrines?

Seriously, what's the issue? I can't think of a single character that would be have a noticable advantage by having 6 skill points more than the same character without the extra skill points.

[Coldest]

There are many more instances of grandfathered items in the game. Based on past performance a precedent has already been set.

[Strakeln]

lol, really? and waiting 6 levels to eat your +2 tomes isnt "Temporary"? The WORST thing that comes of the +2 tome changes is some characters are going to lose a WHopping 6 Skill Points.No, they won't. However, that is what I'm suggesting should happen.

[UnderwearModel]

I do not have a barbarian.

I have never been upset that players that played before me have stuff such as the Star of Irian that is level 2. I think.

As far as i am concerned, the players before me earned their stuff. They also debugged a lot of the content that I am able to enjoy.

Grandfathering is fine by this paying customer.

And speaking of tomes, I bought one at the Rusty Nail jewelry vendor today. Someone sold a +1 DEX tome and I purchased it for around 29000 GP. I did not take a screen show because I wanted to buy it before someone else did.

[Strakeln]

I admit I may be misunderstading your point.

As I see it, your idea is that toons created before mod 9 (or post mod9 with pre-ml tomes) will be decidedly inferior
to toons created after. I'm curious as to why- the only tome (as I see it) that would really have an effect is intelligence, +2 int will give you a single skill point a level. Therefore the pre mod 9 toons will have up to six (yes 6) skill points more than a toon created post mod9.
Every other kind of tome will be retroactive so at lvl 7 there will be no difference.

And I can't see having a couple more hit points, a +1 to hit, +1 to save DC etc being somehow an overwhelming advantage between levels 1-6. And even if there is a differnece what's it going to be? The new character doesn't lead the kill count? Requires an extra cure moderate wounds thrown on it between shrines?

Seriously, what's the issue? I can't think of a single character that would be have a noticable advantage by having 6 skill points more than the same character without the extra skill points.This is all about int tomes (the advantages from other tomes - +1 to hit, etc - are all temporary). Personally speaking, I have little issue with things that will straighten themselves out as you level. I do have concerns about things that result in permanent advantages that are available only to a particular subset of players (and it's not a whine... I'm typically in that subset of players).

I will agree that the magnitude of the problem is a subjective value, meaning that some will see it as a bigger issue than others. It is also subjective based on character class... about half of my characters would really miss the 7 skill points, the other half wouldn't care.

The overall point here, however, is that grandfathering is a poor policy to follow in DDO.

[Strakeln]

There are many more instances of grandfathered items in the game. Based on past performance a precedent has already been set.Grandfathered items, yes. Grandfathered builds, maybe... the only one I've heard of (and am still unsure if it is true) is that WF used to get +2 starting str stat (max of 20 str at creation).

Imagine if they'd decided to grandfather evasion in heavy armor :eek:

[Impaqt]

No, they won't. However, that is what I'm suggesting should happen.

It will, With any NEW tomes that are pulled.

[Samadhi]

Look, if you can't comprehend the difference between what I'm talking about and what you're saying in the quoted text above, you should probably excuse yourself from the conversation. It's not a difficult concept to understand.

Let me guess - you also complained that my sorc used to have improved hieghtening III didn't you?

Those darned Jones's's!!!

[Strakeln]

It will, With any NEW tomes that are pulled.It's a silly semantics argument. No one is losing anything, new characters without access to old int tomes simply won't gain 7 skill points. Normally not worth pointing out (I knew what you meant), but when my argument is carried through to its logical conclusion, it calls for existing characters who have gained this benefit to retroactively lose it.

Not something I want to have happen, for sure... but I doubt they're going to back away from the ML on tomes, so that's where my argument ends up going.

--------------------------
Not being a nit, just want to make sure I have it right: is the total difference 6 or 7 points? I thought it would work out to 2 at 1st level, then 1 for each level up to and including 6. Am I incorrect?

[akla_thornfist]

look on the bright side maybe +2 tomes will drop in lev 10 chest they have a min level of 7, i know wishfull thinking.

[Impaqt]

It's a silly semantics argument. No one is losing anything, new characters without access to old int tomes simply won't gain 7 skill points. Normally not worth pointing out (I knew what you meant), but when my argument is carried through to its logical conclusion, it calls for existing characters who have gained this benefit to retroactively lose it.

Not something I want to have happen, for sure... but I doubt they're going to back away from the ML on tomes, so that's where my argument ends up going.

--------------------------
Not being a nit, just want to make sure I have it right: is the total difference 6 or 7 points? I thought it would work out to 2 at 1st level, then 1 for each level up to and including 6. Am I incorrect?

You cant eat the tome before character creation so you gain 0 Skill points at level 1.

1 at level 2
1 at level 3
1 at level 4
1 at level 5
1 at level 6
1 at level 7
---
6 Skill Points.

[Strakeln]

Let me guess - you also complained that my sorc used to have improved hieghtening III didn't you?

Those darned Jones's's!!!Well, I didn't complain at the time, but I'm not familiar with the situation, so I'm not sure if I would have. Was it a case of grandfathering, or was it outright removed?

[Strakeln]

You cant eat the tome before character creation so you gain 0 Skill points at level 1.

1 at level 2
1 at level 3
1 at level 4
1 at level 5
1 at level 6
1 at level 7
---
6 Skill Points.Der. Thanks.

**** CS counting has been drilled in too far, I guess.

[Samadhi]

Well, I didn't complain at the time, but I'm not familiar with the situation, so I'm not sure if I would have. Was it a case of grandfathering, or was it outright removed?

It was an overall change to the hieghtening enhancements. Improved hieghtening became more expensive, and tier III was (and still is) no longer even available.

When they first made the change, as they are now doing with Crit Rage, they didn't touch those of us that already had it.

Later, they changed their minds (as they probably will with Crit Rage too - because they like to keep very temporal viewpoints on things).

[sirgog]

You are correct, we're talking about a few skill points here (7 at most, I think). Whether or not that is a big thing is a perception, and not one you or I can define for others. We can only state the way it makes us feel.

That said, I think you need to consider some of the more stretched builds. Try maintaining full rogue skills - plus the other necessary skills - with a splash rogue char sometime. Add that in with stat stretches and I think you can see how important those 7 points can be.

My toon Disector is a great example of this - they would not have been able to have full Rogue skills at endgame under this change. (Or if they did, they'd be unable to use Heal scrolls usefully at all - 60% Heal scroll usage is useful, 30% is not).

That would translate to (at current endgame) a chance to fail the VOD traps on Elite where currently I'm 100% on them. Now failing them (by 5 or less) isn't the end of the world, but a future trap with a Disable requirement that is 5 points higher would make Disector unable to function as a trap monkey in that quest.

I don't mind being unable to get the Cabal Elite trap, as that's an optional reward for players that choose to go for it, but the VOD traps are important.


Personally I think that the only solution now is to make tome skill points retroactive. This is an explicit break from PnP rules, but it isn't like there's a million and one of those already in-game, and it's a less significant change from PnP than, say, Enhancements.

[Strakeln]

It was an overall change to the hieghtening enhancements. Improved hieghtening became more expensive, and tier III was (and still is) no longer even available.

When they first made the change, as they are now doing with Crit Rage, they didn't touch those of us that already had it.

Later, they changed their minds (as they probably will with Crit Rage too - because they like to keep very temporal viewpoints on things).In that case, yes, I think I would have complained about it.

I agree, they'll do the same with crit rage.

[Pyromaniac]

More recent toons have significant benefit. They can be built to reflect the current game. Why else do people reroll? Some of us will be giving up a lot to keep our old toons as Turbine continues to make huge changes to the game that makes a lot of characters obsolete.

Crit rage 2 should not be taken out of the game, but grandfathering is the least worst option. Now personally I think it should be grandfathered to character, and allow full respecing of enhancement points.

/not signed to the OP

[Vua]

Well, I didn't complain at the time, but I'm not familiar with the situation, so I'm not sure if I would have. Was it a case of grandfathering, or was it outright removed?

It was left in until you respecced your enhancements.

Personally I don't think there is anything wrong with grandfathering. It happens all the time in all walks of life. I'd be pretty ****ed if my company took away my pension because they were no longer offering it to new employees.

[Cowboy]

/Signed (from one of the haves to help new players not feel subpar. As we need all the new players we can get )

[Borror0]

Considering that new character will gain for other benefits (more adapted to the new content, being built around +3 tomes or the latest gear, etc.), I think grandfathering is acceptable.

[Strakeln]

Personally I think that the only solution now is to make tome skill points retroactive. This is an explicit break from PnP rules, but it isn't like there's a million and one of those already in-game, and it's a less significant change from PnP than, say, Enhancements.Excellent solution, kills many birds with one stone.

- My haves/have-nots argument? Check
- Full Respec/Skill Respec issues? Check
- Grandfathered skills? Check
- Done without nerfing anyone? Check

Not bad at all!

[Jondallar]

Well people managed to survive when unbound +2 stoppped dropping. I know many peole that had =2 tomes from mod1 on and they made a fortune selling/trading them, guess what the game survived. Grandfather is good because it doesnt **** off loyal customers. 7 skill points is not game breaking if you know its coming and can do somethiing about it. I have 2 toons that ate +2 int tomes before level 7 they were designed around using every point wisely and to its best effect, losing 7 would really hurt them.

[Wu_Jen]

If your going to be mad about this change are you mad about the 1st tome change? When it was not an 'inherent' bonus? When the change went through all characters that had used a tome had it added to their base score. So those 'grandfathered' characters after using a +4 tome will be the only ones to really have +5 from tomes.

There aren't that many around, people delete and rebuild characters all the time. Are you jealous of them as well? Things like this work themselves out in time. Tome will be used, characters no longer played or deleted. It's a non issue, except for epeen waving.

[geoffhanna]

I will not agree with this unless I can also respec the four levels of fighter on my barbarian.

[Strakeln]

If your going to be mad about this change are you mad about the 1st tome change?

[...]Are you jealous of them as well?Perhaps you should re-read my post(s). This has nothing to do with anger or jealousy on my part... I'm typically in the "have" crowd.

Nice post :rolleyes:

[sephiroth1084]

I wholeheartedly agree with Strak here: everyone has got to know that Crit. Rage is going to disappear entirely at some point down the road, but until then everyone who managed to get a lvl 14 barb in before the new mod is going to have a distinctly unfair advantage over newer players/barbarians.

This is really a poor decision.

The tome change...one of the benefits of starting a new character after having run one or more up to cap is being able to twink your new guys, and being able to build better characters. This change seems unnecessary.

[Gawna]

/signed

I have been playing DDO for 3 years and in that time have seen many players come and go. With the player base waning, new players are going to be needed to keep the game alive. This isn't about playing time (i.e. game will be unbalanced due to full time players vs. casual players) as some have suggested; that's missing the point completely. It's about players necessary to DDO's survival being unable to EVER obtain what the old-timers have. It might take a casual player 6 months to get an item that a full time player got in a week, but it's not completely impossible due to the item no longer existing.

[Chromus]

I think people forget that we're all on the same team. If someone has something I dont why would I care? Still get to open the same chests, still get the same xp no matter what the kill count reads. Take your ml 2 star of irian and clear ahead of me so I can just pike my way to levels and loot...PLEASE.

What it really comes down to is how often you play, how well you play and how well you know the quests. You can put +20 tomes on every stat but if you're a gimp then I'll probably be dropping your stone at the shrine or carrying you to the end and raise you for your end chest. ;)

[Falchion123]

I believe the move to put a ML on tomes is to pave the way for unbound +3/4 tomes.

Right until now there's only unbound +2 tomes (and the very rare +4), imagine a char with +4
to all his stats at lvl 1! That would be pretty unbalancing..

Thus between this and that of those older players having 6 more skills points, I would prefer a ML on tomes.

A way around this is, in my opinion, is to let +1/2 remain ML1 and place ML11 on +3 and ML15 on +4, but this too
don't feel right, having a big lvl gap between +2 and +3.

[Demoyn]

Intelligence isn't the only stat that will matter. Dexterity could also be an issue with some 15 dex two-weapon fighter builds that have high pre-req feats filling all of their high feat slots (Improved critical and greater two-weapon fighting will already take up two). Luckily I just picked up a +2 dex tome last week and could use some cash (or a few bloodstones). :)

[Girevik]

/signed

One ruleset for all players. It just makes sense. If Crit Rage is too powerful to continue to be selected, it is too powerful to continue to be permitted.

Tomes are much more difficult, as I am unsure how they can implement this reasonably.

[Riot]

Just add in retrospecing all 28 builds to 32 point builds and I'll sign on too...

imagine that?

[lobode]

I totally agree that grandfathering should not happen, like was just said, we should all be playing on the same rules set. I do think the ml on tomes is a great idea and how it always should have been. But 6 skill points can make a difference and is not fair to never have a chance at.

Hopefully this is a way for them to bring in full respec and hopefully they can make everything retroactive and remove all grandfathering but I think part of this problem is doing it with out breaking things.


as a side note, its funny all the people attacking strak like he's a "have not" thats just jealous, lmfao funny

[Samadhi]

Just add in retrospecing all 28 builds to 32 point builds and I'll sign on too...

imagine that?

Ya seriously :P

[Borror0]

we should all be playing on the same rules set.
We are not. While some characters are playing with the current rules, others are playing with the old rules.

Unlike what the OP thinks, the advantaged ones are the newer characters.

[eonfreon]

I think that in the cases of Grandfathering, some cases would be acceptable, others would not.

Grandfathering is acceptable to keep something the same that someone spent time and effort to attain.

The Crit Rage Barbarian that likes the way his character currently plays shouldn't have to change his character because he played exactly by the rules CREATED BY THE GAMEMAKERS.

From what I hear, Crit Rage doesn't exist like this in PnP.

However, remember not everyone has PnP experience, or those who do have played different editions of the DnD rules. In the AD&D rules I played by none of these terms existed.

When he created his character he gained all his Items, all his Favor, all his "fun", from playing him by the RULES.

IMO, When Rules are Changed that can completely impact the "abilities" of his Character two Options should be looked at:

1) Allow some sort of Total Respec for Characters affected so that they can adapt to the new Rules without HAVING TO START PRACTICALLY ALL OVER AGAIN (yes, I know they can "twink" their new toons, not the point).

2)Allow them to continue as is but no one else.

Number 1 is preferable, but Number 2 is acceptable as long as, after time is given to gauge the differences between the old rules and the new rules, it can be judged that they are pretty equal in "power".

Yes, the "Old Timers" may have an advantage.

As long as the advantage isn't SOOOOO large that it completely screws up the game.

IMO the Devs shouldn't "weaken" the characters created by people who PLAYED BY THE RULES the DEVS created, especially in a case like Tomes.

Characters are planned on Tomes and when they are eaten.

There was no indication that that would ever change.

Once again, without allowing a Respec Option, the best solution is to allow those who have these "advantages" to keep them.

Retroactively delete Skill Points?

Why? What about that guy who ate the +2 Tome at 1st level and took CE at level 2?

Are we also going to rearrange people's Feats as well?

Why if I eat a +2 Dex Tome at Level 8 raising my Dex to 17, can then go to Fred and change my 6th Level Feat to ITWF?

But if I eat a +2 Int Tome at Level 8 I can't go to Fred and recover all my Skill Points?

Be careful what you wish for, because the next logical thing to do after deleting skill points would be to rearrange Feats to conform to the new rules as well.

[Strakeln]

Intelligence isn't the only stat that will matter. Dexterity could also be an issue with some 15 dex two-weapon fighter builds that have high pre-req feats filling all of their high feat slots (Improved critical and greater two-weapon fighting will already take up two). Luckily I just picked up a +2 dex tome last week and could use some cash (or a few bloodstones). :)Not true, fulfilling the dex requirement applies retroactively.

Meaning: if you want to take ITWF at level 3, but can't due to dex requirements, you can eat a +2 dex tome at level 15 then respec whatever feat you took at 3 to be ITWF.

[Strakeln]

Just add in retrospecing all 28 builds to 32 point builds and I'll sign on too...

imagine that?I'm all for it.

[rimble]

I agree. I'm not really gonna get up in arms about it...but I absolutely agree.

I'm suspecting though, for the tomes, that it's a precursor to character respecs. Kinda like the Barbarian Crit Rage...you CAN keep Crit Rage, but you can never respec your Enhancements again.

Hypothesizing: Come next mod, you CAN keep your +2 Int skill points you were gaining since level 1...but you might be disinclined to character respec, because if you do we're not applying that +2 until level 7...

They're putting the ML's in now to minimize the impact later and just bringing everyone into line through attrition.

[Strakeln]

We are not. While some characters are playing with the current rules, others are playing with the old rules.

Unlike what the OP thinks, the advantaged ones are the newer characters.Also untrue.

The newer characters can be the advantaged ones, and arguably have a higher probability of being so. It is absolutely not a blanket guarantee, as we have seen many times before (ex: coming into level 16 with a barb 14/ftr 2 build).

Also note that your stance completely disregards the "old players, new characters" (as in, those with unbound no ML +2 int tomes stockpiled).

[Strakeln]

Here is what I hope they are thinking:

- Do this tome change to make way for full respec
- Once full respec is implemented, should you choose to exercise the option, all tomes you have eaten will not take effect while respec-ing until the ML of the tome is reached... regardless of when you originally ate that tome (level 20 or level 1).

Over time, the vast majority of characters would be brought to equal playing fields, and we'd have full respec, which would allow the devs to change the game as needed without consideration of deprecated feats/builds/whatever (I believe that's A_D's case for respec).

[Strakeln]

I agree. I'm not really gonna get up in arms about it...but I absolutely agree.

I'm suspecting though, for the tomes, that it's a precursor to character respecs. Kinda like the Barbarian Crit Rage...you CAN keep Crit Rage, but you can never respec your Enhancements again.

Hypothesizing: Come next mod, you CAN keep your +2 Int skill points you were gaining since level 1...but you might be disinclined to character respec, because if you do we're not applying that +2 until level 7...

They're putting the ML's in now to minimize the impact later and just bringing everyone into line through attrition.lol wow dude I'm 2 posts too slow :)

[rimble]

lol wow dude I'm 2 posts too slow :)

Here's a towel dude, you got some PWND! all over your face...

hehe, just kidding, too much coffee...but yeah, this seems pretty obvious to me...

But anyways, I think it hints at the respec option they're considering too. It'll happen all at once (rather than having to re-level up or some other options I've disagreed with), and if you ate a +4 Int tome it'll get gradually applied to you as you level up through your respec...+0 for levels 1-3, +1 for levels 4-6, +2 for levels 7-10, +3 for levels 11-13, the full +4 for levels 14-15, and +5 for levels 16+.

It's a bit of a Rogue trapmonkey splash fix too, in a roundabout way. I'd have a hell of a time pulling my Clogue build off without that +2 Int tome at level 1. Expect these builds to be complaining loudly about respecs, and if you build one now better get it right. It's an opportunity to have a future 'rare' build if you're into that.

Anyways, they should really just parse through the database (I'm sure it'd take forever) and set the ML's on existing tomes too. All this pre-Mod tome trading is shady.

[Yaga_Nub]

Current players should get some benefit for being early adopters.