Was Ghallanda affected by release notes?

[Mike_Fun_Spot]

I see alot of crying out there has does ghallanda player base feel about the release notes?
I for one am overly excited!

[underlordone]

I can't wait till mod 9 only thing that sucks is the transmuting nerf.

[Big_Russ]

Yeah, I can live with the WoP change. Don't see it as that big.

The transmuting change blows donkeys.

[FluffyCalico]

The transmuting change blows donkeys.

They only had 3 options as the game was broken

1) Epic DR widespread
2) Ring of transmutting
3) Transmutting nerf

Would you hae preferred 1 of the other 2?

[Mindspat]

WTS: WoP Rapier

Only 5 Large Scales!

:D

[Drider]

I prefer they just give every character a +5 Transmuting Holy Burst Parazlyzing Vorpal weapon of Greater Everything Bane.

Although I like the WoP nerf, I don't think its drastic as everyone is making it out to be. If the stun that it gives when reaching 0 stat is longer then say 6 seconds long, it's still gonna be OP.

[Coldest]

It will be good. Too many slackasssses had the uber gear and not the walk that is due it. Time to shuffle the deck and let the cream rise again, I say.

[Samadhi]

It will be good. Too many slackasssses had the uber gear and not the walk that is due it. Time to shuffle the deck and let the cream rise again, I say.

That is a pretty good way of looking at it, actually.

[Nevthial]

Well, I was worried they messed up my minion gathering abilities, but meh, I'll have Dominate Monster, so that's no biggie. The changes to stat damage will only affect weaker groups that relied solely on it or folks that cant think on the fly, so no worries there either. The transmuting changes, I cannot comment on as I dont know how it's going to really work in action. The hardcore players will roll with it no matter what, the others, well they come and go anyway don't they?

[oberon131313]

I'm overall happy just to see that it's closer to being here.

[OneT]

Only thing that really bothers me is the possible change to quest difficulty based on number of people in the party. Everything else doesn't bother me much.

[Uska]

Well I dont really like that neg levels and stats regen now or that dungeons scale on group size its not like we needed a easy button.

[SimVerg]

No Mass Reconstruct makes me a sad panda.

[oberon131313]

No Mass Reconstruct makes me a sad panda.

I'd keep in mind that any and all of these release notes are subject to change, and that it's possible that some stuff was left out or just plain isn't ready yet.

[Jefro]

I like having more named items to grind for. :D

my transmuting greater evil outsiderbane will have to find another home :p


http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/1527/signature11j.png

[Ranmaru2]

They only had 3 options as the game was broken

1) Epic DR widespread
2) Ring of transmutting
3) Transmutting nerf

Would you hae preferred 1 of the other 2?

I'd rather they learn to look ahead as to how their ideas will have to direct future mods. Blame Mod 6 for WoP's rise to fame since they were moronic in the introduction of crafting.

[captain1z]

Im still kinda taking it all in. Lots of changes and I sense there will be unrest, en masse.
I really dont think everyone sees the whole picture when they see it, I sure didnt/dont.


One thing of note: The lag will be horrendous for mordenkanens disjunction. You roll a save for every item you are wearing and each item gets a check vs the spell. If you have ever used Tensers transformation you will get a sample of what this will be like. Very, very bad and against our will (so to speak)

[SimVerg]

Btw, has anyone seen Oogly lately?

[Gratch]

Changing my shroud True Rez clicky down down down to Raise Dead is pretty BUNKHOLIO.

Down to Resurrection I could stand... but making it the same as a cheap planar shard clicky or rez ring for the large crafting... LAMERS.

They're probably just trying to make the cleric and rogue capstones more appealing than the sandpaper parfait they currently are by putting the kabosh on any clicky rezing.

Two mineral 2's... borked.
Two true rez clickies... borked.
I at least expected the WoP nerf.

[Gratch]

Btw, has anyone seen Oogly lately?

He was crying at the House D vendor last I saw...

Though I'm sure he'll come back and tell us how he expected all the current stuff to be just a climbing rope to get to the next piton for Mod 9.... otherwise we'd all be bored.

[Jondallar]

It will be good. Too many slackasssses had the uber gear and not the walk that is due it. Time to shuffle the deck and let the cream rise again, I say.

Last time the cream rose to the top I had to start making child support payments:eek:

[Nikorr123]

It will be good. Too many slackasssses had the uber gear and not the walk that is due it. Time to shuffle the deck and let the cream rise again, I say.

My thoughts exactly, all the masses who wanted a WOP nerf I dont think realize the change to WOP and transmuting effects really hurt the casual/non-elite player.


I am excited about this mod ^_^

[Ranmaru2]

So does this mod further push it to where its more like a good player is: 95% skill 3-4.9% build and .1-2% items? :p

[bloodyrag]

as with every new mod each of the nerfs and fixes have good and bad points, its always the way whats the use with complaining about it. I personally dont like the nerf to true res in particular what a waste of crafting that was for like 6 of my items. wop nerf doesnt worry me tho i have toons with wops the transmuting nerf really blows tho and for the same reason wouldnt have crafted mineral2 weapons if this hadve been known aforehand. but some of the stuff is great like the shared bank page and bound account items and new named items. Just hurry up and release the **** mod will u tho turbine IM BORED

[Accelerando]

It will be good. Too many slackasssses had the uber gear and not the walk that is due it. Time to shuffle the deck and let the cream rise again, I say.

It lives!


Last time the cream rose to the top I had to start making child support payments:eek:

Lies. I haven't seen a dime.

[Logicman69]

I think as a server, we Ghallandians are more level headed than most. While we may be upset over the bad points of this mod (TruRez clicky being the worst of it.. my heart goes out to all who sunk all thise larges into them), we seem to be able to roll with the punches and find a way to come out on to yet again.

as Coldest said "Time to shuffle the deck and let the cream rise again"

[Anthios888]

Some ups, some downs, but I'm sure we'll all adjust - after all, the changes are happening to the entire game. Overall I'm looking forward to mod 9.

[oogly54]

Everyone knows that I HAD a fortune in WOPs. While the nerf to stat damagers is painful, it doesn't bother me so much. What does bother me is the lack of valuable loot. At what point do we never loot basic chests becasue there is no point in looting them. What is rare that would actually make someone excited.

Some new named items are coming and those chests will remain hot and exciting, but 90% of the chests that don't have named loot are now pointless. WOPs and WOEs were one of the cool things you could still loot. Now what do you look forward to getting that can drop from any chest?

P.S.
The comments that only crappy players used WOPs is silly. How do those that have many get them? From never putting in the time? Not having the goods to trade for them? Those that had one or so got lucky, those that had many were power gamers that looted, traded, etc. To amass several was simply using whatever means there is to make any quest simpler and the fact that stat damagers are nerfed won't change that. Do you really think that because I have a lot of WOPs I am unable to adapt? Please, the fact that I have a lot means that is exactly what I have done. Adpated to the best way to make quest easy.

P.S.S
WOPs for trade!!!

[wamjratl1]

You know what I didn't read in the notes was anything about monks haveing to be centered to get the Wis AC bonus, as many had expected. That's good news, huh? The stat damage nerf will change the way a lot of us play / gear up but in a week or so it'll be back to normal.

[rimble]

I mostly don't care. You'll catch me posting on threads discussing changes and other things, but it's more of an academic exercise in game design than '*****ing and moaning'. The only change that really ever bothered me was the original Human Versatility change back in the day, but that's because I made a precarious multi-class character that overly relied on it...turns out he woulda been fine again after a couple Mods, but I didn't keep him around.

[Brigadoom]

It will be good. Too many slackasssses had the uber gear and not the walk that is due it. Time to shuffle the deck and let the cream rise again, I say.
Excellent point of view, I agree.


Well I dont really like that neg levels and stats regen now or that dungeons scale on group size its not like we needed a easy button.

I also agree, I feel like this is a fix to try and make classes not have a level of rogue in them, that way classes don't just UMD everything they need, personally don't like the change but understand why they are doing it... just like they changed potions into wands... personally don't like it and wish it was back the way they were, but can't do anything about it really now.

Btw, has anyone seen Oogly lately?
!!! I sure hope he didn't /death in real life *_*


Changing my shroud True Rez clicky down down down to Raise Dead is pretty BUNKHOLIO.

Down to Resurrection I could stand... but making it the same as a cheap planar shard clicky or rez ring for the large crafting... LAMERS.

They're probably just trying to make the cleric and rogue capstones more appealing than the sandpaper parfait they currently are by putting the kabosh on any clicky rezing.

Two mineral 2's... borked.
Two true rez clickies... borked.
I at least expected the WoP nerf.

I think a lot of these changes stem from cap stones that they were working on...

for example, at level 20 pally weapons are all considered good aligned, well with current transmuting, that makes that useless

as just as you stated before, help Clr and Rogue cap stone

I had another example but I forgot it so i'll throw it in there if I remember :)

[Sirea]

Eh, for me the WoP change isn't that major, it still produces a 0 CON, still produces auto-crit, and will still make things easier to kill, even without insta-kill. It'll be dead by the time it's regen-ed all the ability damage.

The thing that makes me sad is the change to True Res clickies. Just...why?

But as usual I'll withhold most of my judgment until after I've had the chance to experience the new content and how everything will be implemented. No point getting my panties in a twist if the changes end up not being that bad or noticeable.

[Brigadoom]

My thoughts exactly, all the masses who wanted a WOP nerf I dont think realize the change to WOP and transmuting effects really hurt the casual/non-elite player.


I am excited about this mod ^_^

yup, what are they going to do against elementals now :)

auto-crit sure is useful on a earth elemental....*evil laugh*

[smatt]

No big deal, slight change in tactics.... It's all t he same.... The people crying will cry unless they get giant ice cream cones.... And the people who get their jollies by making fun of others *****ing, or what have you will get the attention they so desperately have been seeking since they got stuffed in that locker oh so many years ago :D The changes will lead to more builds being viable.... The game will again be a bit tougher.... Roll with it..... Wow, DPS might actually be useful again....... :eek: Now TWF ranger/monk things will only be 2 times as powerful as other melee classes instead of 20 times as powerful..... :rolleyes:


Cry me a river.... The changes are for the most part good ones..... Adapt, adjust.... It's a new game, time for new tactics, no more hiding behind the WoPers......

[Neon_Budz]

SO WoPs won't grant a kill once con reaches Zero.... oh well.

Anyone who thinks a WoP Rapier is no longer of value is seriously deluding themsleves.

Reducing Con to Zero will not only relegate the mob to Autocrit, but is going to chop off a whole lot of HP in the end due to loss of the con bonus. Would you rather chop done a 1000 HP Orthon or a 400 HP Orthon? Similarly, their Fort Save goes into the toilet making them easier for casters to deal with.

Unless you are a gimped out Dex type build that is totally reliant on the easy con kill, your WoPs will still work just fine. I know with my strength based rangers, most mobs usually die from their DPS using WoPs before the con damage actually gets them.

Maladroit of Bonebreaking and Weakening of Enfeebling still have their uses as well. Anybody currently arming themselves with these combos is not looking to lead the kill count anyhow. These weapon types never killed in the past so they remain status status quo. If it takes too long to clean up the mobs and they regen a stat point or 2, whack em again and resume autocrit at your leisure.

Incapacitating a Mob and minimizing damage to the party is the ultimate goal, so what if it takes a few extra minutes per quest to actually polish off the mobs. As long as the overall cost to the party does not increase, there should be no significant impact to gameplay.

Also, someone was lamenting about getting screwed on their Min II weapons with the impending changes to Transmuting. Are you serious? If anything, the value and utility of a Min II weapon just went through the roof.

Think about it, if regular transmuting can only get thru Material based DR, that only leaves Alignment based DR left to contend with. Any Blessed (of Pure Good)Transmuting weapon will still bypass 90% of the mobs out there. Unless you decided not to make that Min II weapon a +5 Holy or throw in Good Burst, you will find that it is King of the Hill against the Pit Fiend, DQ, and any other big nasty with Material and Alignment based combination DR.

[B_Notorious]

I don't give two shakes of a wand about the Wounding of Puncturing nerf. It doesn't mean anything to me other than I need to start carrying more effect bolts for my WoP repeater on my Bard. Oh No! Doooooooooooom. I do have to admit all of the Cry Baby Sally's are quite amusing though.

[Brother_Solar]

yup, what are they going to do against elementals now :)

auto-crit sure is useful on a earth elemental....*evil laugh*
It is actually somewhat useful. If you have a burst damage weapon, it will still give extra damage every strike once the elemental is "disabled" from stat reduction. That is only a small benefit, but it is still a benefit.

Also, the other stat damage (strength and dexterity) will make the elementals less dangerous while the constitution damage lowers their over-all hit points and resistance to Fortitude-save spells.

[Thriand]

meh, I'll live without my WoPs, doesn't bother me I favored my radiance on my rogue anyway. I actually kind of like the transmuting change. I've dealt with nerfs before, and as always in a month we will rise above the nerfs and complain how easy the game is.

[Kintro]

Only thing I don't like really is the transmuting change. Transmuting of GEOB/GUB were one of the few things left on my list of "things I hope for when opening a random loot chest". Now that list is even smaller and I have to grind more larges for min 2s and blunt pos/pos/pos (guess i could get away with pos/pos).

There was some talk of craftable rings with weapon effects on them so we'll see how the whole thing plays out once we have all the details.

[Sirea]

Another thing worth noting is that red named bosses aren't completely immune to stat damage anymore. So your WoPs and WoEs and MoBs will still have uses after all.

[Jondallar]

P.S.
The comments that only crappy players used WOPs is silly. How do those that have many get them? From never putting in the time? Not having the goods to trade for them? Those that had one or so got lucky, those that had many were power gamers that looted, traded, etc. To amass several was simply using whatever means there is to make any quest simpler and the fact that stat damagers are nerfed won't change that. Do you really think that because I have a lot of WOPs I am unable to adapt? Please, the fact that I have a lot means that is exactly what I have done. Adpated to the best way to make quest easy.


I think general when people denigrate wop users it is not the guy who using them for efficiency, its they guy who has a useless build/cant adapt that they are talking about.

WoP + bought plat/being carried through 80+ shrouds = small skill with super well equipped characters where as before WoP became (widely known as) powerful only the most skilled players with the most time had geared out toons. With the Shroud and no real content the gap in gear vs required skill to attain said gear disappeared. Any idiot could save enough plat to buy a WoP if they wanted it enough. I hope the gap will grow to it proper grand canyon-esque stature.



No big deal, slight change in tactics.... It's all t he same.... The people crying will cry unless they get giant ice cream cones.... And the people who get their jollies by making fun of others *****ing, or what have you will get the attention they so desperately have been seeking since they got stuffed in that locker oh so many years ago :D The changes will lead to more builds being viable.... The game will again be a bit tougher.... Roll with it..... Wow, DPS might actually be useful again....... :eek: Now TWF ranger/monk things will only be 2 times as powerful as other melee classes instead of 20 times as powerful..... :rolleyes:

Hello Smatt, I have been frequenting Ghallanda more, I thought I should take this time to offer you a guided tour of my locker, all it will cost you is your lunch money, and the time it takes to do my homework.

[Samadhi]

As a couple people mentioned - what is there left to hope for out of random chests? Where is the fun of random loot runs?

[smatt]

I think general when people denigrate wop users it is not the guy who using them for efficiency, its they guy who has a useless build/cant adapt that they are talking about.

WoP + bought plat/being carried through 80+ shrouds = small skill with super well equipped characters where as before WoP became (widely known as) powerful only the most skilled players with the most time had geared out toons. With the Shroud and no real content the gap in gear vs required skill to attain said gear disappeared. Any idiot could save enough plat to buy a WoP if they wanted it enough. I hope the gap will grow to it proper grand canyon-esque stature.

Indeed, let the so and so's start their ego-maniacal ramblings....





Hello Smatt, I have been frequenting Ghallanda more, I thought I should take this time to offer you a guided tour of my locker, all it will cost you is your lunch money, and the time it takes to do my homework.


Sorry you and the special K's don't need my company in their...... It looks a bit to cozy and wierd for my tastes. I'm sure if you run around, flail your arms, and scream loud enough somebody will notice you all though ;)

[wamjratl1]

As a couple people mentioned - what is there left to hope for out of random chests? Where is the fun of random loot runs?

New named loot? **** I dunno, you're right. I didn't realize it until you said it but the only reason I've even looked in a chest for the past 6 months is to see if there's a WoP in it. (And to expand my collection of +5 thieves tools) ****. Guess I'll still be excited if I loot one but...

Better be some **** good named loot in this new mod. The tidbit about augmenting new named raid loot is pretty cool I guess...

[Anthios888]

It's funny you say that, Samadhi, I was thinking the opposite. These changes make many more so-so weapons a LOT better. Any greater bane that can replicate or exceed a shroud item is now valuable... maybe before they were decent enough stuff for the AH, but I know I will be trading hard for the new cream of the crop weapons. Transmuting/pure good, holy/silver/pure good, holy/cold iron/pure good, blunt/greater undead bane, frost/greater elemental bane, flaming burst/greater giant bane, weakening/enfeebling and maladroit/bonebreaking, bursting rapiers of puncturing ... just to name a few. On top of the reported several dozen new named / raid loot items, I think we will have a lot of reason to open chests :)

[wamjratl1]

It's funny you say that, Samadhi, I was thinking the opposite. These changes make many more so-so weapons a LOT better. Any greater bane that can replicate or exceed a shroud item is now valuable... maybe before they were decent enough stuff for the AH, but I know I will be trading hard for the new cream of the crop weapons. Transmuting/pure good, holy/silver/pure good, holy/cold iron/pure good, blunt/greater undead bane, frost/greater elemental bane, flaming burst/greater giant bane, weakening/enfeebling and maladroit/bonebreaking, bursting rapiers of puncturing ... just to name a few. On top of the reported several dozen new named / raid loot items, I think we will have a lot of reason to open chests :)

Named Thieves Tools. That's what I want.

[kingfisher]

i like it. no way one weapon should work for all the baddies out there. i have always carried transmuters but only as a last resort cause i like carrying around 2 backpacks worth of weps, and using them. to me, having the right tool for the job is what makes the game fun.

before, a holy of grtr bane was just ok, which is ****ing crazy! its 5d6 bonus dam every hit, and it should be amoung the top weapons in the game not junk. now, they are pretty **** fine weapons to have and for indiviual situations a random weapon CAN be the best weapon, as opposed to an alternative to minII

before, a set of wops was about as good a weapon as you could have. it always felt like cheating, a little dirty, like sleeping with your ex's sister, and it turns out the people who made this game thought so too. now, they are extremely useful, but they are not stand alone weapon anymore. you are gonna need DPS in all parties or dropping the mobs will take too long. as it ****ing should be!!


this game is going to change, and for the better, imo. its supposed to be a party game, and now it will be more so. tatics will apply more too. better take out those enemy casters before they restore all that stat damage you have been working on. ac/melees go in first and start immobilizing targets and the dps/melee follow them finishing the job. etc etc. teamwork is the new uber!!!

[Gratch]

I'm sort of sad about the xmuting change... though I believe mineral 2's will still work just fine on the purple names we dislike since they have good + silver/mithril/cold-iron in them... just less so against Abbot (unless you're a blunter).

Otoh, it's cool that my blunt spec fighter has slightly more specialization for some mobs... though now I'll have to carry some more pointy/slashing weps for the other ones.

Hmmm... no one on in this thread complained about the charm changes... probably cause on Ghallanda charm is for the solo'ers and more of an irritant to groups.

[Gunga]

I'm too awesome to be affected by some little weapon change.

My secret weapon is Rhynn, who is not being nerfed in Mod 9.

[Gunga]

;)

Smhatt, Smhacoatt.

:p;):D:o:):(:confused::mad::rolleyes::cool::eek:

[Junts]

Some parts are disappointing (especially pos+pos change), some expected (wop), not that big a deal.

Honestly, it was pretty far past excessive when a s/b pally specced for piercing could kill any mob in the game in less than 2 seconds without taking damage; dual wops? All you ever needed was one.

Just a little silly, that, even though I'll miss the massively disproportionate killing power on my tank-purposed character. No matter how you slice it, it was/is completely ******** that that character can kill any subterrane/sub raid/mod8 giant about 12 times faster than a pure dps build with its best dps weapons (who'd also take a ton of damage).

Incidentally, all hail the vorpal, our new(again) main trashmob weapons.

[Nevthial]

As a couple people mentioned - what is there left to hope for out of random chests? Where is the fun of random loot runs?

Meh, there are still RR items out there. That's nearly all I look for and keep these days. ( And the odd tome drop of course)

[Bashear]

Everyone knows that I HAD a fortune in WOPs. While the nerf to stat damagers is painful, it doesn't bother me so much. What does bother me is the lack of valuable loot. At what point do we never loot basic chests becasue there is no point in looting them. What is rare that would actually make someone excited.

Some new named items are coming and those chests will remain hot and exciting, but 90% of the chests that don't have named loot are now pointless. WOPs and WOEs were one of the cool things you could still loot. Now what do you look forward to getting that can drop from any chest?

P.S.
The comments that only crappy players used WOPs is silly. How do those that have many get them? From never putting in the time? Not having the goods to trade for them? Those that had one or so got lucky, those that had many were power gamers that looted, traded, etc. To amass several was simply using whatever means there is to make any quest simpler and the fact that stat damagers are nerfed won't change that. Do you really think that because I have a lot of WOPs I am unable to adapt? Please, the fact that I have a lot means that is exactly what I have done. Adpated to the best way to make quest easy.

P.S.S
WOPs for trade!!!

I see what you are saying Oogly about the regular loot, but not sure if I wholeheartedly agree. As you mentioned, you can still get the random uber pull, but one of the things that I see with the transmuting nerf is it now makes it essential that I have particular weapons for different types of mobs. No longer will I be able to rely solely on my Min2 greataxe, but might actually equip something specific to the mob Im attacking (alright, maybe not me because Im too lazy to switch, but some people might). However, my point is that some of these other weapons - the ones we've all come to vender trash - might actually now have value AND might increase sales on the AH, which has slowly declined overall anyway.

[Mike_Fun_Spot]

SO WoPs won't grant a kill once con reaches Zero.... oh well.

Anyone who thinks a WoP Rapier is no longer of value is seriously deluding themsleves.

Reducing Con to Zero will not only relegate the mob to Autocrit, but is going to chop off a whole lot of HP in the end due to loss of the con bonus. Would you rather chop done a 1000 HP Orthon or a 400 HP Orthon? Similarly, their Fort Save goes into the toilet making them easier for casters to deal with.

.

Unfortunately the hit points don't really reflect the con scores as they are super inflated, the percentage of actual hit point loss per con point is very low, i don't have the exact numbers, ill let the experts do that.

Will WOPS be worthless? NO. But i see them being only slightly more valuable than WOE. Guess we will have to see on the test server :)

[Junts]

I see what you are saying Oogly about the regular loot, but not sure if I wholeheartedly agree. As you mentioned, you can still get the random uber pull, but one of the things that I see with the transmuting nerf is it now makes it essential that I have particular weapons for different types of mobs. No longer will I be able to rely solely on my Min2 greataxe, but might actually equip something specific to the mob Im attacking (alright, maybe not me because Im too lazy to switch, but some people might). However, my point is that some of these other weapons - the ones we've all come to vender trash - might actually now have value AND might increase sales on the AH, which has slowly declined overall anyway.

There's only a few kinds of weapons people will need that min2 isn't gonna cover for dps purposes: there were already niche weapons that did it better, and a lot of what got hammered were 'roughly equivalent' weapons like trans/greater banes (holy silver gtr banes, for example, were already better .. holy silver weapons were already a bit worse, but very valuable because of their transferrable nature).

Most min2s are on slashers or piercers: there's a few dr/pierce mobs, but almost none we dps regularly. The real question will be 'how many mobs get death ward?' because if its not a lot, we'll return to the very old, very boring standby of 'everyones vorpalling everything' unless mob hp are significantly reduced.

I remember what shrouds were like when not everyone in my guild packed some kind of con damage weapon, and we still have devout believers that vorpals are better than con damage for shroud/vod/hound (in the face of significant evidence to the contrary). However, they do still, and will continue to, work, and unless mob hp are drastically reduced, they'll still be faster.


I think that's too bad, though, since +4 and +5 vorpals will be frequent in the loot table, and it will probably reduce the difference in what people are wielding a vast majority of the time.

[Junts]

Unfortunately the hit points don't really reflect the con scores as they are super inflated, the percentage of actual hit point loss per con point is very low, i don't have the exact numbers, ill let the experts do that.

Will WOPS be worthless? NO. But i see them being only slightly more valuable than WOE. Guess we will have to see on the test server :)

for most mobs their con bonus seems to work out to between 20-33% of their total life; you can see this easily by watching Gunga try to dps something he shouldn't, then run up and start con damaging it and watch how quickly its lifebar actually refills for a moment before suddenly dropping to half and then dying to your next blow ;)

the bursting/puncturing for dps via hitting and con damage setup has been viable for high-dps barbs for everything that didn't have 3000+ hp for a while (I know Gunga runs like this sometimes); con damage will also be very potent vs elementals, who tend to have many more hit dice than normal for their cr (so will lose more hp per con point done,as well), there's only a few mobs that will be a real problem, like sos giants, for whom we lack the vorpal or reasonable dps alternatives.

[Return_To_Forever]

I cried all last night about the changes, still crying actually, this thread, making me cry!

Turbine why do you take me down to noogie town?

[kingfisher]

Incidentally, all hail the vorpal, our new(again) main trashmob weapons.

tru dat, but i am not sure it ever left for most players.

[Junts]

tru dat, but i am not sure it ever left for most players.


agreed, more than anything a big evening between extremely wealthy and only moderate/slightly wealthy players has occured.


There's almost nothing I do with my WoPs that I couldn't do with a vorpal (sos and prey are the two biggest exceptions, and the slowness of vorpal to wop over time would make a big impact when off by yourself in hound or the subterrane), but most of these factors are just reducing the incredible self-sufficiency of wop-bearing toons with other abilities - ac builds with wops can, right now, solo tons of things they have no business soloing, and if they are rangers with manyshot, that opens up even further (as they gain the ability to dispose of huge packs of mobs with imp precise+wop or weak/punct bow, and to deal with beholders that way).

It was probably not good for the game for those characters to be so completely independant of a need to be near, pay attention to or care about the locations of their party members, while other classes/builds focused on dps (barbarians, non-ac fighters and pallys, lower ac rogues, etc) are forced to actually play as a team and stay with people who can support and heal them .. while the ac pally/rangermonkthing/rogue are on the other side of the map by themselves killing things and ignoring the presence of everyone else.


Kinda fun for a while, if you are the pally/rangermonk/rogues in question, but probably a lot less fun for everyone else. 'i soloed the puzzle and opened the lever and killed all the mobs by the shrine before the vod group filled' was cool the first time Torthur did it, and I rather enjoyed it the first time I did it, but I kinda get the feeling it's also taking fun away from people, since their job is 'run to the quest, grab a chest on the way'

lazy players like that, people who want to actually do something, less so, people who's toons will never, ever be capable of that kind of thing because they don't mix ac and wop, even less.

My character is a s/b non-evasion ac tank; its not supposed to out-solo so many things. But W/P is a big part of letting it do so.

[Riorik]

It's funny you say that, Samadhi, I was thinking the opposite. These changes make many more so-so weapons a LOT better. Any greater bane that can replicate or exceed a shroud item is now valuable... maybe before they were decent enough stuff for the AH, but I know I will be trading hard for the new cream of the crop weapons. Transmuting/pure good, holy/silver/pure good, holy/cold iron/pure good, blunt/greater undead bane, frost/greater elemental bane, flaming burst/greater giant bane, weakening/enfeebling and maladroit/bonebreaking, bursting rapiers of puncturing ... just to name a few. On top of the reported several dozen new named / raid loot items, I think we will have a lot of reason to open chests :)

You forgot one. Transmuting Flame-Touched.

After looking thru my inventory, I came upon a +5 Transmuting Flame-Touched Shortsword of Enfeebling. I actually would have thought you couldn't mix the two effects.

What I'm thinking is that we're actually seeing an improvement to the blanket red-named immunities - they're now somewhat vulnerable where they weren't before. I'm kinda expecting players to start encouraging a mix of stat damage across the party/raid.

I am also thinking the beat-down raids are going to get a little harder to complete until players re-acquire the proper equipment or make their Mineral 2's.

I've suspected for awhile that Turbine was likely to work an angle that brought back the Undead to a more central role in end-game content (Wraiths for new Pit Fiend) because of their immunities. Looks like it's happening...and the weapons we would have used before are now less effective.

[Return_To_Forever]

i soloed the puzzle and opened the lever and killed all the mobs by the shrine before the vod group filled' was cool the first time Torthur did it, and I rather enjoyed it the first time I did it

Unless you died trying you are doing something wrong, you are exactly right to say if you opened it up killed everything blah blah blah other words here blah blah, didn't die, that it was boring, soaked the fun out of it for me.

For future referance, if you want for me to enjoy playing more, umm, die, like make it seem like its an accident, or like type into party chat "I'm solo opening up vod, guys, almost done!" and then die.:eek:

/thnx. in advance

[MondoGrunday]

It will be good. Too many slackasssses had the uber gear and not the walk that is due it. Time to shuffle the deck and let the cream rise again, I say.

translation - i didn't have the uber items now i have a chance against them for once ;)

[MondoGrunday]

i find it quite hilarious regarding the talk of some people "earning" their wop through looting as to buying one. :D:D:D

[Jondallar]

translation - i didn't have the uber items now i have a chance against them for once ;)

LMAO, Coldest is probably the best geared tank I know. I think u are barking up the wrong tree at an original Drow TWF w/p specc'ed fighter/pally.

R. Kelly gives your post a 5 drips out of 5 rating.

[Junts]

Unless you died trying you are doing something wrong, you are exactly right to say if you opened it up killed everything blah blah blah other words here blah blah, didn't die, that it was boring, soaked the fun out of it for me.

For future referance, if you want for me to enjoy playing more, umm, die, like make it seem like its an accident, or like type into party chat "I'm solo opening up vod, guys, almost done!" and then die.:eek:

/thnx. in advance

roflroflrofl

[MondoGrunday]

LMAO, Coldest is probably the best geared tank I know. I think u are barking up the wrong tree at an original Drow TWF w/p specc'ed fighter/pally.

R. Kelly gives your post a 5 drips out of 5 rating.

its great you know so much about R. Kelly. He's the best geared tank you know, great. that still don't mean *******. all i'm saying is people are doing a lot of gloating over a nerf, that really isn't that nerfed imho, which proves it must of bothered people to some extent to feel the need to gloat.

[Return_To_Forever]

LMAO, Coldest is probably the best geared tank I know. I think u are barking up the wrong tree at an original Drow TWF w/p specc'ed fighter/pally.

R. Kelly gives your post a 5 drips out of 5 rating.

did they nerf the winky face?1!@@#S@!!EASPORTS#!

[Return_To_Forever]

its great you know so much about R. Kelly. He's the best geared tank you know, great. that still don't mean *******. all i'm saying is people are doing a lot of gloating over a nerf, that really isn't that nerfed imho, which proves it must of bothered people to some extent to feel the need to gloat.

omg they did!

[kingfisher]

[QUOTE=Junts;2135173]
It was probably not good for the game for those characters to be so completely independant of a need to be near, pay attention to or care about the locations of their party members, while other classes/builds focused on dps (barbarians, non-ac fighters and pallys, lower ac rogues, etc) are forced to actually play as a team and stay with people who can support and heal them .. while the ac pally/rangermonkthing/rogue are on the other side of the map by themselves killing things and ignoring the presence of everyone else.

QUOTE]


imo this is a good thing and will improve the game. the ac/wop builds (good way to state it btw, as there are lots of toons out there that are based entirely around this) will still be useful buttering up all the mobs without needing much healing, but will be largely helpless when attempting to dps down a non-vorpable immobilized mob. having both a primary dps build and a secondary melee/ac build will be a very beneficial to a 6 man party, and in raids/raid explorere areas having melee teams/duos could become standard.

funny about the vorps, if the new quests are like sos/prey or if they add DW to the mob caster ai spell list then the dps need at high levels will be even greater. cant wait to hear from the test server about this part.

[Bashear]

LMAO, Coldest is probably the best geared tank I know. I think u are barking up the wrong tree at an original Drow TWF w/p specc'ed fighter/pally.

R. Kelly gives your post a 5 drips out of 5 rating.

Nice to hear R Kelly's "exploits" are not forgotten

Signed/
Pacman Jones

[The_Phenx]

I'd keep in mind that any and all of these release notes are subject to change, and that it's possible that some stuff was left out or just plain isn't ready yet.

Guarantee some of its left out...

[Riorik]

translation - i didn't have the uber items now i have a chance against them for once ;)

The only thing that could top this wise statement if a chorus of Ghallandan's posted their disgust and swore never to group with Mondo and his righteous angst!
That is, of course, sarcasm.

Dude, did you even read the content of his brief post?

Coldest is basically saying...screw the changes, I'm a badazz and I'll get it done anyways and I'll get whatever it is that I need to make it happen, AGAIN.

I just can't quite connect to your interpretation.

[MondoGrunday]

The only thing that could top this wise statement if a chorus of Ghallandan's posted their disgust and swore never to group with Mondo and his righteous angst!
That is, of course, sarcasm.

Dude, did you even read the content of his brief post?

Coldest is basically saying...screw the changes, I'm a badazz and I'll get it done anyways and I'll get whatever it is that I need to make it happen, AGAIN.

I just can't quite connect to your interpretation.

did you even read the post i copied? he doesn't say nor imply any of what you interpreted.

[Riorik]

did you even read the post i copied? he doesn't say nor imply any of what you interpreted.

Sure did...here it is as reference:
"It will be good. Too many slackasssses had the uber gear and not the walk that is due it. Time to shuffle the deck and let the cream rise again, I say."

Here's my interpretation quoted:
Coldest is basically saying...screw the changes, I'm a badazz and I'll get it done anyways and I'll get whatever it is that I need to make it happen, AGAIN.

It will be good = screw the changes
Too many slackasssses = I'm a badazz
Time to shuffle the desk and let the cream rise again, I say = I'll get whatever it is I need to make it happen, AGAIN

You apparently never played with the guy. Like a number have attested, the last thing we'd describe his characters as under-geared or lacking in equipment. You apparently are unaware of that. That's fine, nothing wrong with that.

I've also spent more than a few hours in groups and know the banter, somewhat.
Re-reading it, I'd say I ad-libbed a little. However, there's just no way I think any reasonable person would interpret his quote as suggesting he didn't have the equipment before.

So are we done here? You done listening to Doctor Nax? Can't believe I'm analyzing this ****. It's just smack talk, get over it.

[BLAKROC]

They only had 3 options as the game was broken

1) Epic DR widespread
2) Ring of transmutting
3) Transmutting nerf

Would you hae preferred 1 of the other 2?

and i thought you were talkin bout the lag. as that is the only thing in game that is broken

you forgot option 4 ) leave it alone.

[MondoGrunday]

you lost me at

it will be good = screw the changes
for some reason that doesn't make sense to me

[MondoGrunday]

It's just smack talk, get over it.

i'm over it, it seems you have the issue with it. I stand by my interpretation.

[Guaire]

<snip>

[Accelerando]

you lost me at

it will be good = screw the changes
for some reason that doesn't make sense to me


i'm over it, it seems you have the issue with it. I stand by my interpretation.

You don't know Cold, thats your issue not ours. If you don't understand what he is saying it is because you are in the forums of the wrong server. GTFO.

[Venar]

I hope this will be the return of the smart casters. And i fear for us, because there is a lot of brainless nukers on the server. Those that rolled their sorcs after the enhancement changed.
Before that, we had very little SP, very little nuke power, and Crowd Control was important.

Then Sorc got double SP from items, and ridiculous elemental enhancement and criticals, and firewall, and behold, the dumb Firewall sorc was born, that guy with no CC, no extend, no heigten, no spell pen, that let the firewall carry him to 16, and that has 3 spells on his bar: Firewall, FoD, and haste when you ask him.

Mod 9 introduced many many many very powerfull MASS spells. You guys are talking about stat-damaging mobs to auto-critic... Who cares, everything will be held! But to do that to demons, you will need high CHA/INT (poor WF sorcs), high Spell Pen, Heightn, Extend, etc...
The return of the Crowd Sorc. I am happy. But i fear for many.

[kamimitsu]

Sure the excitement of pulling a ridiculous weapon will be gone (no doubt I'll FINALLY pull a WoP a week after Mod9 drops), but I think the necessity for so many different weapons will make for more "hey, that's pretty decent" moments, which have been kinda rare as of late. I'm not sure which is better. I'm leaning toward the latter, at this point.

I suspect many folks, like myself, went through their inventory recently to see how many trans/PG or holy silver they had (in addition to keeping an eye out for bludeoning/etc.). I found a few gems that I had squirreled away, and picked up a nice sickle on the AH for my rogue (sorry to whoever posted it for such a cheap price... early bird gets the worm, I guess). I'll be back to having serious inventory issues on my halfling assassin, no doubt. The AH and trade forums will almost assuredly be fairly busy for the next few weeks as people adjust their inventory. That, in some respect, is something exciting to look forward to.

All in all, I'm optimistic about the Mod9. Ring crafting may make up for a lot of the concerns we have regarding weapon changes. The named loot may be well planned to address some of the issues (one can hope, at least). My only real gripe is the lack of HiPS for Assassins (for flavor, if nothing else), which I've vented about to anyone who will listen. But, I'm nearly over it... I think.

[Demonfire]

We still have mauls and WH and stuff for Sor`jek and the Abbott so Min II / Transmutating nerf don`t bother at all save for all the larges i lost in it! Min II is still great most of the time so no big deal.

As for WoP i don`t give a d@mn even though i have 3 of them, Strong built don`t need them. Gimp one does!
So yeah "flavor of the day" builders will have to go back to the drawing board but we the others won`t!

The only thing that im really looking for is the supposed "monk nerf" wich i have`nt seen any news about. I was waiting for that before splashing monk into my new cleric built.

[Accelerando]

i'm Too Awesome To Be Affected By Some Little Weapon Change.

My Secret Weapon Is Rhynn, Who Is Not Being Nerfed In Mod 9.

Qfmft

[Babidi]

Guys, I know this is not the right place but as a last resource I will make some posts at loaded posts, we need your vote at escapist, 20 votes behind, and this is the only way now to promote a game that Atari dont want to promote. We can make this change, we can make Turbine look at us with different eyes. Please dont troll me, I am just trying to make things better, if you dont agree simply go to next post.

[Draccus]

I was only really disappointed with two things:

1. The transmuting nerf really hurt my off handers. I had a very nice one I paired with my MinII and one waiting in the bank to pair with it once I got Tharne's Goggles. Both of those are pretty worthless now but it just means I need to craft another MinII. Not a big deal.

2. I was really, really, REALLY hoping the dev's would change the Rogue Capstone before the release notes came out. I haven't read a single post about capstones that doesn't agree the rogue's is ridiculously inferior to the others. Well, that's wrong, I did read one post from someone who thought it was better than the Ranger's...and that came from a ranger.

Speaking of rangers, my last concern, and it's more of a joke than a concern, is the clear favoritism Turbine is showing to Rangers. Rangers are already one of the most common classes in the game and now that they are the unchallenged champions of dual wielding and ranged combat (both on the same character!), I think we're just going to see and explosion of ranger players.

Good for rangers, bad for DDO. :/

Other than that, none of the changes really bothered me much. I've never liked stat damaging so I traded my two wops weeks ago and I never made a res clickie. The fact that I'm usually on the RECEIVING end of a res clickie will hurt me more than the clickie users.

[Return_To_Forever]

You do know Rogs and ftrs are the kings of dps right?


I was only really disappointed with two things:

1. The transmuting nerf really hurt my off handers. I had a very nice one I paired with my MinII and one waiting in the bank to pair with it once I got Tharne's Goggles. Both of those are pretty worthless now but it just means I need to craft another MinII. Not a big deal.

2. I was really, really, REALLY hoping the dev's would change the Rogue Capstone before the release notes came out. I haven't read a single post about capstones that doesn't agree the rogue's is ridiculously inferior to the others. Well, that's wrong, I did read one post from someone who thought it was better than the Ranger's...and that came from a ranger.

Speaking of rangers, my last concern, and it's more of a joke than a concern, is the clear favoritism Turbine is showing to Rangers. Rangers are already one of the most common classes in the game and now that they are the unchallenged champions of dual wielding and ranged combat (both on the same character!), I think we're just going to see and explosion of ranger players.

Good for rangers, bad for DDO. :/

Other than that, none of the changes really bothered me much. I've never liked stat damaging so I traded my two wops weeks ago and I never made a res clickie. The fact that I'm usually on the RECEIVING end of a res clickie will hurt me more than the clickie users.

[ChaelaAnne]

I'm unconcerned. The loot gods hate me anyway, so I never pulled WoPs, and I was going to be damned if I spent that much money on them, so I've always made due without. (I i do have some wounders, or puncturers, but...) Honestly, I prefer vorps. I know that Venn, with dual vorp kopeshes is pretty danged deadly.

About the loot drops... who knows what they are introducing loot wise in the next mod. I'm sure that there will be some changes that will make some other random drop just as crazy valuble as WoPs were. Nobody panic, we won't know what is going on until the mod hits.

[Coldest]

You do know Rogs and ftrs are the kings of dps right?

Nope. It's the Bardarian.

[Khroc]

You do know Rogs and ftrs are the kings of dps right?
Is that tongue and cheek ?? :confused:

[kingfisher]

Nope. It's the Bardarian.

all wrong its the battle cleric

[Gratch]

all wrong its the battle cleric

WRONG. DPS king is the mo.. mon... mo... mahunk... crud... my keyboard won't let me even type that correctly.

I'll vote Bardarian. Half-Orc Bardarian of course.

[Return_To_Forever]

in come the hackers with thier broken bardarians and muhunks!

[MondoGrunday]

You don't know Cold, thats your issue not ours. If you don't understand what he is saying it is because you are in the forums of the wrong server. GTFO.

wrong server? perhaps you should GTFO, since you have no clue

[Riorik]

in come the hackers with thier broken bardarians and muhunks!

Shenanigans! It's the Frankenstein builds! They're everywhere!

[Accelerando]

wrong server? perhaps you should GTFO, since you have no clue

You play on this server and don't know Coldest? Who has no clue?

[MondoGrunday]

in your own little mind perhaps....

[Gunga]

in your own little mind perhaps....

I never heard of you either dude. But I know Coldest.

[MondoGrunday]

that's odd, being in the same guild and all. i know several katet that i group with frequently and have the utmost respect for. just not accel. i grew out the popularity contest somewhere in 10th grade. you will enjoy the freedom when you get there.

[Gunga]

that's odd, being in the same guild and all. i know several katet that i group with frequently and have the utmost respect for. just not accel. i grew out the popularity contest somewhere in 10th grade. you will enjoy the freedom when you get there.

I guess you grew out of the easily memerable too. :) Don't remember you pal.

[Accelerando]

that's odd, being in the same guild and all. i know several katet that i group with frequently and have the utmost respect for. just not accel. i grew out the popularity contest somewhere in 10th grade. you will enjoy the freedom when you get there.

There is no popularity contest going on. Anyone who has been playing end game on this server for more than 6 months would know Coldest. Welcome to Ghallanda! Now GTFO.

[MondoGrunday]

i understand in your limited scope that everyone on the server cares who all the other people are on the server. i've obviously have not had the displeasure of grouping with you and I've been here as long as anyone (disclaimer: who purchased retail, beta testers are not included in "anyone")
Back to your cage troll :cool:

[MondoGrunday]

I guess you grew out of the easily memerable too. :) Don't remember you pal.

how will I ever overcome this :(

[Samadhi]

There is no popularity contest going on. Anyone who has been playing end game on this server for more than 6 months would know Coldest. Welcome to Ghallanda! Now GTFO.

Your assumption is skewed based on how much someone might PUG as well as hours of operation. I have run a couple abbotts with coldest, and to the best of my sobriety, that's it.

Is it because I don't play much? Or don't play much end game? No, it's because I would rather run shortman than throw up an LFM - so that's what I do.

All apologies if I took your post too literally and you were just having fun with el dudo, I'll go back to work now :D

[Accelerando]

meh.

[kamimitsu]

There is no popularity contest going on. Anyone who has been playing end game on this server for more than 6 months would know Coldest. Welcome to Ghallanda! Now GTFO.

I've been playing on Ghallanda for years, and I don't know Coldest (except from the forums). It's my own fault though, since I only play mornings (nights my time). As a matter of fact, I don't know a lot of the "famous" Ghallandians (excluding their forum personalities). I'm not sure whether to be happy or sad that I miss out on all the prime-time drama. I guess it's just not my fate to hang out with the cool kids in virtual worlds, either.

One of these days I'm going to go to bed really early and try to get up when the servers are hopping, maybe I'll get to see what all the fuss is about and meet some of the characters (and I mean that figuratively) behind the forum personalities.

edit: I have run with you a few times, though, Cache. Good times, as I recall.

[Accelerando]

edit: I have run with you a few times, though, Cache. Good times, as I recall.

Absolutely, Asian time zones FTW. :D

Haven't seen you about lately unfortunately. :(

[Venar]

On another note, i like the change do Divine Fervor duration, now it can match zeal and last 4 minutes.

[Riorik]

how will I ever overcome this :(

You won't, and you'll need to re-roll effective characters. I suggest Issa's alphabet theme....how about a, aa, aaa, aaaa, aaaaa for character names.

[Yurtrus]

WTS: WoP Rapier

Only 5 Large Scales!

:D


I will give you 3 Lrg Scales if you are interested PM me..

[MondoGrunday]

You won't, and you'll need to re-roll effective characters. I suggest Issa's alphabet theme....how about a, aa, aaa, aaaa, aaaaa for character names.

oh i see , kinda like you but without the g and y included.

[Riorik]

oh i see , kinda like you but without the g and y included.

Interesting, now you're branching out to sexual harrassment.

Only Adogg is allowed to harrass his minions!

[MondoGrunday]

Interesting, now you're branching out to sexual harrassment.

Only Adogg is allowed to harrass his minions!

i meant "yag" , i don't know what you are referring too :D

[Mindspat]

I will give you 3 Lrg Scales if you are interested PM me..

You know I was kiding, right? ;)

[Seregon]

From the point of a view of a strength based, dwarven, tempest, pure class ranger, in short no.

The wop nerf wasn't that big of a deal because my char is strength based, thus does alot of dps so it won't be that big of a deal to ditch my wops for min II's. On normal for almost every quest ingame I can almost dps mobs down as quick as I can wop them. But yes, I guess for hard and elite the wop nerf will have some impact. There are a couple of a options though, incapacitate all mobs attacking you with wop, then kill 1 by 1, vorpal, straight dps, WoE then dps, etc, in time I'm sure hard and elite will be conquered easily though.

The transmuting nerf, kinda effects me, not as bad though because im a min II user, not just a transmuting of X, so my weapon will still bypass most dr(mainhand has goodburst, offhand has holy). And for the Dr- that I can't break, it takes a big DR- to negate base swings are doing 35-50 a hit non-crit and 150+ crit. But again, tough to predict what type of dr new mobs will have.

The true rezz clicky wont affect me at all, I have a high umd so I just use scrolls, but I do feel for the people who wasted materials on them.

I think thats it I assumed you wanted to know about how the nerfs will affect people.

I'm actually looking foward to scaling of quest difficulty based on the amount of people in party because I love to solo and shortman stuff, so if this change is done right it will basically mean that I'll never have to pug again, but probably still will.

Torthur Hareft

[Seregon]

agreed, more than anything a big evening between extremely wealthy and only moderate/slightly wealthy players has occured.


There's almost nothing I do with my WoPs that I couldn't do with a vorpal (sos and prey are the two biggest exceptions, and the slowness of vorpal to wop over time would make a big impact when off by yourself in hound or the subterrane), but most of these factors are just reducing the incredible self-sufficiency of wop-bearing toons with other abilities - ac builds with wops can, right now, solo tons of things they have no business soloing, and if they are rangers with manyshot, that opens up even further (as they gain the ability to dispose of huge packs of mobs with imp precise+wop or weak/punct bow, and to deal with beholders that way).

It was probably not good for the game for those characters to be so completely independant of a need to be near, pay attention to or care about the locations of their party members, while other classes/builds focused on dps (barbarians, non-ac fighters and pallys, lower ac rogues, etc) are forced to actually play as a team and stay with people who can support and heal them .. while the ac pally/rangermonkthing/rogue are on the other side of the map by themselves killing things and ignoring the presence of everyone else.


Kinda fun for a while, if you are the pally/rangermonk/rogues in question, but probably a lot less fun for everyone else. 'i soloed the puzzle and opened the lever and killed all the mobs by the shrine before the vod group filled' was cool the first time Torthur did it, and I rather enjoyed it the first time I did it, but I kinda get the feeling it's also taking fun away from people, since their job is 'run to the quest, grab a chest on the way'

lazy players like that, people who want to actually do something, less so, people who's toons will never, ever be capable of that kind of thing because they don't mix ac and wop, even less.

My character is a s/b non-evasion ac tank; its not supposed to out-solo so many things. But W/P is a big part of letting it do so.


Sorry but I gotta disagree with ya here bro, I just solo'd to vod and opened the lever a few times(not saying this is difficult at all, using it as a baseline), not using wop at all, used min II's first time, minII's and vorps second time. I also did it quite easily. All the wop does for a character with a good build, is allow you to do, what you already can do, just faster. The nerf really affects characters with poor builds more than it does well built characters. Using only mineral II's I could easily take out 2 devils/orthons. 3devils/orthons plus some randoms was more difficult but still completly doable without wop and no deaths at all. Its all about tactics, and somewhat good rolls, not just one piece of gear, take pulling the lever for example, my wops have nothing do with me being able to sneak past all that stuff, my 50hide 50move silently do that. So I guess what I'm saying is, its not the wop that allows characters like mine to do what I do, its all the other gear combined with a solid build and good strategies that allow me to do what I do.

But I also do agree with you that completing the majority of an event solo for the group while you wait for the group to fill does rob people of content, and that any successfull group should always stick together. Just after 100 runs all I want to do is get the quest done as quick as possible but I understand that other people who havn't over-ran it to the point of boredom would want to go slow to make sure they can see and take everything in.