Pure rogue build Q

[sappheire]

Hi,

I want to design a Pure-rogue Drow. I need some informed help with skills/suggestions/feats.

I've read through other builds and while I agree multi-class builds might be able to out-perform a pure rogue, I prefer to play pure-classes all the way through.

Pure-rogue
Drow

Wants:
Focus: Sneak-attack damage (Whether TWF or Single weapon & Shield)
Second focus: AC, HP, Resists (Possibly also intimidate)
Fall-back focus: Skills

So far I was thinking scores of
15 str
16 dex
13 con
14 Int
8 wis
12 cha


Let me know your suggestions.

Thanks in advance

[Hasteclicky]

Are you looking for assassin or acrobat prc? Cause unless your going assassin you may want to drop int a hair.

[sappheire]

I'm on the fence about either specialty. My focus is more-so Sneak-attack than a once in a while insta-gib from stealth.

I think assassination is a nice toy but I think acrobat might be better for what I'm intending. I absolutely despise being knocked down in this game. Nothing is worse than lying on your back unable to do anything.

I don't think I want to invest in bluff but moreso into diplomacy. I'm not sure what are the 'required' skills.

I know DD, OL, Search, UMD are 4 I'll max out every level.

I really wanted to start with at least a 16 Str and put all 5 level ups (4 8 12 16 20) into str and hope for a +3 tome or eventually a +5 tome down the line. (16+5+3) would be a 24 str without gear. This would leave me only with the 16 starting dex with eventually a +2 tome (18) plus my rogue/drow enhancements.

This is why I've posted for input. I know I want to play a pure-class. I'm more combat-focused than skill focused and I want to retain a solid Intimidate skill either for being a main tank of a toss-together group or an off-tank incase a healer or caster gets aggro.

I know rogue & tanking defeats the purpose of sneak-attack but I want to have the 'ability' to tank if neccessary. I don't want tanking to be its primary focus.

[Hobgoblin]

the other part that is nice is the damage bonus from assassin.

just something to think about

[sappheire]

heh, too many things to think about and not enough Stats, Skill-points, or AP to go around :(

Questions:

4 skills always maxed: DD, OL, Search, UMD
5th pondered maxed skill: Intimidate

1) Is Max rank tumble/balance neccessary? I was going to spend half-points of them (1 rank / 2 levels, 2 ranks first level)
2) How many ranks can I afford to not spend on Hide/Move Silently.
3) Do I *need* spot at all? I.E. have they implemented dungeons yet with 'random' trap locations and/or random requirements where spot is required. Or can I survive placing 0 ranks in spot?
4) Do I *need* listen at all? -^ reference above.
5) How bad off will I be if I only max Diplomacy and spend 0 points on bluff?
6) If I do decide to spend skill-points on Intimidate how many ranks am I required to have by level 16 in order to be a sufficient off-tank (intimitank) provided my AC is enough to avoid 90-95% of the attacks thrown my way?


Thanks in advance

[Hobgoblin]

heh, too many things to think about and not enough Stats, Skill-points, or AP to go around :(

Questions:

4 skills always maxed: DD, OL, Search, UMD
5th pondered maxed skill: Intimidate

1) Is Max rank tumble/balance neccessary? I was going to spend half-points of them (1 rank / 2 levels, 2 ranks first level)
2) How many ranks can I afford to not spend on Hide/Move Silently.
3) Do I *need* spot at all? I.E. have they implemented dungeons yet with 'random' trap locations and/or random requirements where spot is required. Or can I survive placing 0 ranks in spot?
4) Do I *need* listen at all? -^ reference above.
5) How bad off will I be if I only max Diplomacy and spend 0 points on bluff?
6) If I do decide to spend skill-points on Intimidate how many ranks am I required to have by level 16 in order to be a sufficient off-tank (intimitank) provided my AC is enough to avoid 90-95% of the attacks thrown my way?


Thanks in advance


1.) tumble. 1 point is all you need.
balance is nice, but your dex should be high enough to not really worry about it.
2.) personally i dont see a need for sneak with all the zerging going around, but i maxed my rogues anyway sometimes its nice to sneak.
3.) Right now spot is not necessary, but this may change. Maybe max at first level and use items and buffs.
4.) see above
5.) dont worry about bluff. it makes worthless skills look good. Diplo is awesome(especially if the cleric complains about you getting too much agro, then you run out get all the mobs back to said cleric, then hit diplo ...... naw i wouldnt do such a dastardly thing....)
6. not completly sure on this one, but i seem to remember 40 being ok for trash and 52 for sulu and the hound.

also if you are going dex based, 10 pts in ol is sufficent.
ce and pa are both fun
my rogue walks around with about a 40 ac, can self buff to 46ish and has hit 62 in raids, and that is w/o trying for ac.

[sappheire]

So far I was thinking for feats:

1:TWF
3:Toughness or CE
6:PA
9:ITWF
12:IC: Piercing
15: GTWF

The difference of toughness especially with the 2 ranks in the toughness line really makes me want to not avoid toughness. It's 50? HP at level 16

I'm playing with the DDO character planner and so far I show myself at 170 base hp at level 16 without a +6 con item. With a +6 con item I'd be at 218 hp. This is without any false-life line of gear or draconic vitality.

Without the Toughness line (I'm drow) and without a +2 con tome I'd be down alot of hp.

I've always lived by the rule in D&D Pen & Paper: The best defense is a good HP pool.

[sappheire]

So 1 rank in tumble is all that is neccessary? Higher ranks don't give any other bonuses?

[Hobgoblin]

So 1 rank in tumble is all that is neccessary? Higher ranks don't give any other bonuses?

nope. nil. nada.

[sappheire]

Thanks on that info. I would have thrown skill points to waste. that helped my decision a bit more on skills and I was able to lower my int down to 12 if I don't go combat expertise route. And if I do want it I can always just eventually buy a +1 int tome to get it. Let me see if I can post my planner.

[sappheire]

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.00
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Level 16 Lawful Good Drow Male
(16 Rogue)
Hit Points: 186
Spell Points: 0
BAB: 12\12\17\22
Fortitude: 7
Reflex: 15
Will: 4

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Stats Modified Stats
Abilities (Level 1) (Level 16)
Strength 16 22
Dexterity 16 21
Constitution 13 14
Intelligence 12 12
Wisdom 8 8
Charisma 12 12

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 5
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 16
+1 Tome of Constitution used at level 16

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 16)
Balance 5 17
Bluff 1 7
Concentration 1 2
Diplomacy 5 20
Disable Device 5 20
Haggle 1 1
Heal -1 -1
Hide 7 32
Intimidate 5 20
Jump 4 12
Listen -1 1
Move Silently 7 32
Open Lock 7 24
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 1 1
Search 5 22
Spot -1 1
Swim 3 6
Tumble 4 6
Use Magic Device 5 20

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 2 (Rogue)


Level 3 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting


Level 4 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR


Level 5 (Rogue)


Level 6 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack


Level 7 (Rogue)


Level 8 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR


Level 9 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting


Level 10 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Improved Evasion


Level 11 (Rogue)


Level 12 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons


Level 13 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Cripling Strike


Level 14 (Rogue)


Level 15 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting


Level 16 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Slippery Mind
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost II
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost II
Enhancement: Drow Melee Attack I
Enhancement: Drow Melee Attack II
Enhancement: Drow Melee Damage I
Enhancement: Drow Melee Damage II
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity I
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity II
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabber I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking I
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking II
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking III
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy III
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training III
Enhancement: Way of the Assassin I
Enhancement: Way of the Assassin II
Enhancement: Rogue Hide I
Enhancement: Rogue Hide II
Enhancement: Rogue Move Silently I
Enhancement: Rogue Move Silently II
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity II

[sappheire]

That's my build so far. It's without any items at all. Just base from the planner. I understand my dex is Odd because of only a +1 dex tome. I'm hoping to get a +2 dex tome by 16 or even a +4 eventually.

[Hobgoblin]

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.00
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Level 16 Lawful Good Drow Male
(16 Rogue)
Hit Points: 186
Spell Points: 0
BAB: 12\12\17\22
Fortitude: 7
Reflex: 15
Will: 4

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Stats Modified Stats
Abilities (Level 1) (Level 16)
Strength 16 22
Dexterity 16 21
Constitution 13 14
Intelligence 12 12
Wisdom 8 8
Charisma 12 12

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 5
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 16
+1 Tome of Constitution used at level 16

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 16)
Balance 5 17
Bluff 1 7
Concentration 1 2
Diplomacy 5 20
Disable Device 5 20
Haggle 1 1
Heal -1 -1
Hide 7 32
Intimidate 5 20
Jump 4 12
Listen -1 1
Move Silently 7 32
Open Lock 7 24
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 1 1
Search 5 22
Spot -1 1
Swim 3 6
Tumble 4 6
Use Magic Device 5 20

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 2 (Rogue)


Level 3 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting


Level 4 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR


Level 5 (Rogue)


Level 6 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack


Level 7 (Rogue)


Level 8 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR


Level 9 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting


Level 10 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Improved Evasion


Level 11 (Rogue)


Level 12 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons


Level 13 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Cripling Strike


Level 14 (Rogue)


Level 15 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting


Level 16 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Slippery Mind
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost II
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost II
Enhancement: Drow Melee Attack I
Enhancement: Drow Melee Attack II
Enhancement: Drow Melee Damage I
Enhancement: Drow Melee Damage II
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity I
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity II
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabber I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking I
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking II
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking III
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy III
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training III
Enhancement: Way of the Assassin I
Enhancement: Way of the Assassin II
Enhancement: Rogue Hide I
Enhancement: Rogue Hide II
Enhancement: Rogue Move Silently I
Enhancement: Rogue Move Silently II
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity II




this is actually almost exactly how i built my rogue, cept i took a fighter at level 11 for feats and to use vorp kukris
very effective, take subtle backstabbing, you will need it.

[Hobgoblin]

dont worry about the dex, you can wait on that or get to the shroud and craft a +3 except dex item

[sappheire]

Do you think I'm gimping myself with an 8 wisdom 12 int and 12 charisma? Or are those sufficient stats for what I want to accomplish.

I don't want to disable 100% of traps. Just like 90%

[sappheire]

Another big question: What alignment is best for a rogue? Considering I'll have UMD couldn't I, in effect, use anything?

[Hobgoblin]

I Went lawful good, cause i was planing on taking a monk level for ac, but was having 2 much fun. tn is nice

[Jesen]

Another big question: What alignment is best for a rogue? Considering I'll have UMD couldn't I, in effect, use anything?

Neutral Good IMO

The only weapons you can NOT use are True Law/True Chaos which I believe UMD can surpass.

[sappheire]

if I'm neutral good I won't be able to wear Stability right? which requires TN?

[Hobgoblin]

if I'm neutral good I won't be able to wear Stability right? which requires TN?

yes but stability sucks. you can get the same thing with a pro +2 item and a +2 res item

[sappheire]

So then would NG be better over CG?

Generally I run Chaotic characters to wield Chaotic weapons. Does NG have any benefits over CG?

[Hobgoblin]

So then would NG be better over CG?

Generally I run Chaotic characters to wield Chaotic weapons. Does NG have any benefits over CG?

not on a rogue. you have the umd to use anything, and wont take a neg level from axio weapons

[Hobgoblin]

o man i just saw that you are trying to go str based.

take wep finesse at level 3 trust me

use str for damge all levels in dex be awesome!

[sappheire]

So level up 4x in dex?

so my final str will be

16 base +2 tome +6 item (24)

instead of

16 base +2 tome +4 level +6 item (28)?

and my dex becomes

16 base +2 tome +4 level +4 enhance +6 item (32)

instead of

16 base +2 tome +4 enhance +6 item (28)



It's basically 4 str -v- 4 dex. I see more benefit out of 28 str (+9 hit/dam) 9 ac -v- 32 dex +11 hit/+7 dam 11 ac


Plus I don't see where I can put Weapon Finesse (I'm not human) without losing Power Attack or Toughness



I think by going all levels in str I'm saving more than i'm losing.

Going Dex I have to use Weapon Finesse (1 feat) which I don't have right now.

Going Str I'm free to use feats as I choose as I can use a wider variety of weaponry.

Also having +2 str damage bonus is going to help immensely with damage.

+2 str critting on 15-20 (Rapier) 30% of the time is effectively.

10 hits
+2 str (7)
+4 str (3) [30% crit ratio with rapiers]
26 / 10 = 2.6 damage (Average increase of +1 str per hit due to higher strength)

This in effects means all my attacks are at +3 damage versus Dex-based.

I'm down 2 AC due to lower dex (28 instead of 32) but I have more hp (Toughness) because of a freed up talent.


Also if i was going to go dex-based (Weapon finesse) wouldn't it be then more optimal to start with 14 str 18 dex versus my current 16 str 16 dex (same point value for elf) and focus more on stat weaponry?

And again, I'm not sure where to fit Weapon Finesse in without losing Power Attack, Toughness, or GTWF

I absolutely do not want to give up Improved Critical: Piercing as a Drow because of the Drow Racial enhancements (+2 hit/dam) for Rapiers/SS



Basically it comes down to:

is Weapon Finesse, Dex, AC more worthwhile than, Power Attack, Str, Damage

With Weapon Finesse route I'm sorta pigeon holed into Stat Damage weaponry whereas with STR based I can still make use of Stat damage but also make use of Elemental & Bane weaponry to a wide variety.

I'm not just looking at this build as to what could be the best at level 20 but also to what could be useful from 1-16.

[VKhaun]

People are answering your questions from the top looking down.

Tumble helps with falling damage, and at 20(/30?)/40 tumble the animation changes, and =I THINK- has you move farther per tumble which is good for avoiding enemies after you take aggro (which you will). I'm also a new rogue player, and my tumble is at 17 now I think. I have sold off my feather fall items and just take the jumps. I really don't take damage. Sometimes the group leaps off a really tall bridge (STK Part2, going back to optional helm quest) and I have to hop down two or three spots, I'm still the first one down because I fall full speed.

Spot warns you of traps, which may be useless to pros who know where they all are, but is invaluable to me as a new player in groups that expect me to just know things. Spot (and listen to some extent) also show you where rogue type enemies are. Good luck sneaking ANYWHERE without knowing where the enemies are that can detect you.

Sneak prevents initial aggro gain. The warriors line up at a door and open it, you hit stealth just for a sec before they open it and nothing is on you at the start. I've tried this on my fighter characters and it just doesn't work. I get hit by giant fire balls, fears, or curses immediately like everyone else. Apparently the enemies have some level of spot/listen themselves.

Jump works in conjunction with tumble for fall damage on shorter distances since you obviously don't take damage from falls within your jump height and probably a bit more based on it. Like tumble, I love having high jump for avoiding enemies I take aggro from by immediately vaulting over the tanks or an obstacle to safety.







A lot of high level rogues seem to be world of warcraftified and never want aggro, but if a strong melee enemy is aggro'd on me and trying to run around the tanks while I circle them, they can stand there and beat on him with no one taking damage, and I can hit something else! I am certain I have allowed fights to be won in this manor.

I did a fighter to 7 (6fighter, 1wiz for repair wands) and reached Drow favor. Got myself a +1 int tome and began my Drow rogue with 17int (natural +2, like 15 for a human). I did not put points in OL for creation since I've always been told that can slip, as there is no penalty for a failed roll, you just need plenty of tools on hand. Then lv2 I used the +1 int tome for a total of 18 and can now raise OL each level up with those additional points I get per level for the base modifier as well as my others. I am now working my way up doing all of:

Jump / Tumble / Swim
Hide / Move Silently / Diplomacy
OL / DD / Search / Spot
UMD And Haggle.

I absolutely love every second of playing him. Every time I tell people about 17 starting int and all my skills they blow a gasket about potions and buffs and strategy guides and clickies and wands and websites and raid gear and aggro management. Who cares? It's a ton of fun, very independent, and total easymode.

Also, in between telling me how useless the skills are, I constantly use Jump/Tumble/Swim to stay ahead of the group. Everyone is rocking charges and sprints that make it hard to do my job before people are half dead. Jumping up a set of alternating ramp stairs in two quick hops and swimming through a tunnel at triple their speed, then stealth by a group of enemies they will be fighting when they catch up. As an overall character it is an incredible luxury and makes playing my fighters feel like I'm underwater.

Balance would be the exception to my philosophy here.
Thief acrobat and incredible dex will suffice as far as I've been told.






My advice, as a new player who's rerolled many times and tried to listen to the pros who carry three inventory bags full of junk to make up for skills they 'didn't need' and got a few damage points and HP isntead, is to max your dex and intelligence as hard as you can. 18dex 17int (+1 tome at lv2) was my starting. Weapon finesse at lv3.

Trying to jump into all the 'don't need that skill because you can do XYZ, carry such-and-such and buy ABC...' at the start is asking for a life of headaches. I prefer to PLAY my characters, and going int for all those skills for life which will again be based on int/dex even if you go strength based, makes a ton of sense to me vs going 14, 16, or 18 strength for a whole FOUR MORE DAMAGE or con for a handful of HP's.



EDIT--
Also, 2¢ on power attack: Don't. You attack bonus won't be good enough to actually gain damage over time, until the gain over time from '+5' is no longer noticeable. I would reserve that one for fighters or very well geared barbarians.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Hi,

I want to design a Pure-rogue Drow. I need some informed help with skills/suggestions/feats.

I've read through other builds and while I agree multi-class builds might be able to out-perform a pure rogue, I prefer to play pure-classes all the way through.

Pure-rogue
Drow

Wants:
Focus: Sneak-attack damage (Whether TWF or Single weapon & Shield)
Second focus: AC, HP, Resists (Possibly also intimidate)
Fall-back focus: Skills

So far I was thinking scores of
15 str
16 dex
13 con
14 Int
8 wis
12 cha


Let me know your suggestions.

Thanks in advance

I've built mine with 16's in Dex, Int and Cha and I've been very happy.

Stealth and Diplomacy are my AC.
Fearsome and Improved Evasion are my HP.

[ghettoGenius]

Most people are telling you tumble and balance are trash skills. I dont necessarily agree with that. The first time you get knocked down and see your toon getting pounded you will wish you had more balance I promise you. As for tumble I think this is an often overlooked skill. The more points in tumble allow not only cooler animations like side rolls, backflips and front flips but they happen faster and over greater distances.

If youre up on your twitch skills you can manuever around attacks and through groups of mobs like nothing else. Plus if you have mobility thats +4 to ac while tumbling. I have a tempest with fighter mobility enhancements which basically gives me +10 ac while tumbling. When i go into tumble mode im constantly outflanking with tumbles which gives me better ac and sneak attacks. Works best with mobility and spring attack.

[Lonewolfe]

heh, too many things to think about and not enough Stats, Skill-points, or AP to go around :(

6) If I do decide to spend skill-points on Intimidate how many ranks am I required to have by level 16 in order to be a sufficient off-tank (intimitank) provided my AC is enough to avoid 90-95% of the attacks thrown my way?


Thanks in advance

Honestly, I don't think you want to make a pure rog drow as a back up intimitank. You really would be much better off focusing on dmg and making best friends with an intimitank. I suppose with displacement, it wouldn't be impossible, but certainly difficult. Your ac won't be high enough, but more importantly, your hp's won't be either. Anything is possible in the game, but that set-up just doesn't lend itself to much success. Use the strengths of the rog build to do dmg and take out traps. Let the real tanks do the meat shielding while you clean up with those non-stop sneak attacks :)

[Demoyn]

Honestly, I don't think you want to make a pure rog drow as a back up intimitank. You really would be much better off focusing on dmg and making best friends with an intimitank. I suppose with displacement, it wouldn't be impossible, but certainly difficult. Your ac won't be high enough, but more importantly, your hp's won't be either. Anything is possible in the game, but that set-up just doesn't lend itself to much success. Use the strengths of the rog build to do dmg and take out traps. Let the real tanks do the meat shielding while you clean up with those non-stop sneak attacks :)

I was reading this thread thinking that I'm the only one that noticed this. The OP is a drow (lower con/hp), strength based (not maxxed out on dex), pure class (no monk AC boost), and rogue (massively reduced DPS while holding aggro). Intimidating on this character will be disasterous.