Build Advice Requested: TWF Str Based Rogue

[Lymnus]

Basically interested in making a STR based Rogue. Figured 15 Rog/1 X is probably the best break point for full, current sneak attack.

Human, 15 Rogue/1 Fighter

Stats:
STR 30 (16 Base+4 Levels+6 Item+2 Tome+2 Rage)
DEX 26 (16 Base+3 Enhancements+1 Tome+6 Items)
CON 24 (14 Base+6 Item+2 Rage+2 Tome)
INT 20 (12 Base+6 Item+2 Tome)
WIS 8
CHR 18 (10 Base+6 Item+2 Tome)

Feats:
1st: Toughness
1st: Two Weapon Fighting
3rd: Exotic Weapon, Khopesh
6th: Skill Focus: UMD
8th: Improved Two Weapon Fighting (Fighter Bonus)
9th: Power Attack
12th: Improved Critical: Slashing
15th: Greater Two Weapon Fighting

Took the fighter level at 8th. a little funky, but since rogues do have some martial weapon proficiencies, I'm hoping I can take Khopesh at 3rd. If not, I suppose feats could be worked around.

Well, I've never made a rogue because, I can run up an AC layout (nothing amazing, could switch at SF:UMD for CE or something, and get decent AC) or skill layout, but I assume that getting high enough skill shouldn't be hard.

Thanks for any advice, mates.

[Borror0]

Why a +1 Dex tome when a +2 Dex tome could save free a few creation points? You seem to have plenty of +2 tomes anyway.

Why the Dex enhancements?

[Lymnus]

Why a +1 Dex tome when a +2 Dex tome could save free a few creation points? You seem to have plenty of +2 tomes anyway.

Why the Dex enhancements?

Primarily because I don't have a +2 dex tome. Could probably buy a +2, but it's just one I don't currently have.

Taking the dex enhancements might just be never playing a rogue. Not worth taking, I assume?

Thanks for the help, Bor. <3 I love ya.

[Aeneas]

Start with 13 dex, eat the +2 tome, take twf at 3, take ITWF at 9 after you use your level 4 and 8 level up stat point to get your dex to 17. The points you'd save could all go into charisma and basically eliminate the need for that skill focus UMD (or at least be almost as good as the feat) and you could take something like force of personality instead to take advantage of your uber new cha score. Would bulk up your bluff, diplo, and intimidate checks as well. Yes, you'd lose 2 strength which doesn't mean a whole lot. A +3 str tome and your level 20 level up stat increase will get you right back to 30.

[Borror0]

Primarily because I don't have a +2 dex tome. Could probably buy a +2, but it's just one I don't currently have.
Post on your server for a tome swap and someone will probably take the offer.

Taking the dex enhancements might just be never playing a rogue. Not worth taking, I assume?
Well, since you're not Dex-based the only purpose it will server is raise your AC and reflex saves. Your saves are probably high enough and I doubt your AC is high enough to really be worth spending 12 AP to raise it by 2, though I might be wrong on this one.

Oh, and it's a pleasure to help.

[Borror0]

Start with 13, eat the +2, take twf at 3, take ITWF at 9 after you use your level 4 and 8 level up stat point to get your dex to 17.
Why would he put level ups in Dex on a Str-based character?

[Philam]

Start with 13 dex, eat the +2 tome, take twf at 3, take ITWF at 9 after you use your level 4 and 8 level up stat point to get your dex to 17. The points you'd save could all go into charisma and basically eliminate the need for that skill focus UMD (or at least be almost as good as the feat) and you could take something like force of personality instead to take advantage of your uber new cha score. Would bulk up your bluff, diplo, and intimidate checks as well. Yes, you'd lose 2 strength which doesn't mean a whole lot. A +3 str tome and your level 20 level up stat increase will get you right back to 30.

You need a natural 17. Tomes count, but not stat bumps.

[Borror0]

You need a natural 17. Tomes count, but not stat bumps.
Stat bumps do count.

[Lymnus]

Start with 13, eat the +2, take twf at 3, take ITWF at 9 after you use your level 4 and 8 level up stat point to get your dex to 17. The points you'd save could all go into charisma and basically eliminate the need for that skill focus UMD (or at least be almost as good as the feat) and you could take something like force of personality instead to take advantage of your uber new cha score. Would bulk up your bluff, diplo, and intimidate checks as well

That's an interesting idea. Hits charisma over 20, but would those extra points of will save be able to be justified? I figured most rogues take, what is it, slippery mind? Know I'll take crippling strike, but figured slippery mind would be better than improved evasion or skill mastery. Of course, new to a rogue, so it might not be worth taking.


Well, since you're not Dex-based the only purpose it will server is raise your AC and reflex saves. Your saves are probably high enough and I doubt your AC is high enough to really be worth spending 12 AP to raise it by 2, though I might be wrong on this one.

Well, she'll probably run with either a Kardin's or Boots of the Innocent, matter on how I get her gear set up. Have both, mattering on what I wanna choose. So, probably the projected reflex save is 30+. My ranger/pally/monk mutt has a 40, which I probably consider overkill. 30 gonna be fine enough for elite traps?

Thank ya both, yet again. <3

[Lymnus]

You need a natural 17. Tomes count, but not stat bumps.
'bout 100% sure that feats are determined by Base+Level Ups+Tomes. In PNP, it's only Base+Level Ups, tomes don't count.

[Eudimio]

Here's some notes:

As Borror0 said, 15 dex to start and get a +2 tome.
-Add to con or wis if you want to increase survivability
-Add to int or cha for more roguey goodness.
Don't forget about your human stat enhancements.
Rogue Dex 3 is required for Acrobat 2 :(.
Khopesh adds less %dps on a rogue then other melees.
-Especially when you don't have OTWF.
-Radience 2 and +++ are better on scimitars.
If you are just going 15/1, consider barbarian (drop EWP:khopesh or SF:UMD).
-+10% movement speed increases killing.
-Barbarian speed boost does too.

If you are dedicated to this character, he will be your favorite.
Good Build!

Happy Hunting.

[gfunk]

Personally, I probably won't ever make a non-halfling rogue again. The halfling guile enhancements are just too good to miss out on. Don't get me wrong, you get sweet damage out of rogues from all the races, but halflings are the best at sneak attacking.

I would probably give up the UMD skill focus and go with halfling (that extra feat is the only real advantage i see to going human as it doesn't look like you are using human adaptability for anything other than dex. You can get enough umd (eventually) with good gear.

** edit, also I would strongly consider rapiers over khopesh as they save a feat and work fantastically with radience.. honestly, my rogue felt like the 6 million dollar man getting his bionic arm after I first crafted up a radience rapier.

[Eudimio]

'bout 100% sure that feats are determined by Base+Level Ups+Tomes. In PNP, it's only Base+Level Ups, tomes don't count.

LOL! In PnP, even items count.

[Lymnus]

LOL! In PnP, even items count.
Your DM is nice, then. I hope they at least say, if nothing else, if you no longer have the pre-reqs, you no longer have the feat.

And I'm guessing your DM lets you wear INT items before leveling for more skill points?
Using items for prereqs is house ruling.

[Lymnus]

As Borror0 said, 15 dex to start and get a +2 tome.
-Add to con or wis if you want to increase survivability
-Add to int or cha for more roguey goodness.
Don't forget about your human stat enhancements.
Rogue Dex 3 is required for Acrobat 2 .
Khopesh adds less %dps on a rogue then other melees.
-Especially when you don't have OTWF.
-Radience 2 and +++ are better on scimitars.
If you are just going 15/1, consider barbarian (drop EWP:khopesh or SF:UMD).
-+10% movement speed increases killing.
-Barbarian speed boost does too.
Adding to Wis actually is sorta interesting, since I probably could drop the fighter level for a monk level, drop power attack or toughness for CE. Would increase survivability by a fair amount, and probably could make it a decent AC build.

Only took one human stat enhancement, because the rest ended up even. Figured I'd probably use a +1 tome instead of a +2 somewhere, or use the other +1 enhancement for whenever I get a +3 tome.

Scimitar might be nice with radiance. Haven't thought about it's 15-20 crit range, which wouldn't do bad dropping Khopesh. Took UMD at that level because of BAB problems I was having.


Personally, I probably won't ever make a non-halfling rogue again. The halfling guile enhancements are just too good to miss out on. Don't get me wrong, you get sweet damage out of rogues from all the races, but halflings are the best at sneak attacking.

I would probably give up the UMD skill focus and go with halfling (that extra feat is the only real advantage i see to going human as it doesn't look like you are using human adaptability for anything other than dex. You can get enough umd (eventually) with good gear.

** edit, also I would strongly consider rapiers over khopesh as they save a feat and work fantastically with radience.. honestly, my rogue felt like the 6 million dollar man getting his bionic arm after I first crafted up a radience rapier.

I have a halfling ranger/monk/pally mix, which I guess is why I was heading into the human direction. Would prefer to use scimitars or khopeshes over rapiers, since that halfling is rapier based. Mattering on what I add up UMD to be, I might skip out on SF:UMD and grab something else. But, you're right, Halfling>Human in this case, except maybe -2 STR.

Thank y'all, of course.

[Borror0]

Khopesh adds less %dps on a rogue then other melees.
-Especially when you don't have OTWF.
-Radience 2 and +++ are better on scimitars.
Good point.

[Lymnus]

Just noticed the comment on OTWF. Because rogues are 3/4 BAB, do that have trouble hitting mobs? I mean, if they do, scimitar/kurki or khopesh/kurki (leaning towards scimitar now) is always a potential option.

[Eudimio]

Adding to Wis actually is sorta interesting, since I probably could drop the fighter level for a monk level, drop power attack or toughness for CE. Would increase survivability by a fair amount, and probably could make it a decent AC build.

Only took one human stat enhancement, because the rest ended up even. Figured I'd probably use a +1 tome instead of a +2 somewhere, or use the other +1 enhancement for whenever I get a +3 tome.

Scimitar might be nice with radiance. Haven't thought about it's 15-20 crit range, which wouldn't do bad dropping Khopesh. Took UMD at that level because of BAB problems I was having.

Thank y'all, of course.

Lymnus,

If you add a monk level in there and go for AC, it completely changes your build. Itemization will become a huge problem.

You'd need:
Chattering Ring
Chaosguards
Daggertooth Belt
Mineral 2 shroud item
And a perfect set of DT Leather
Or:
Skip the belt, add a wisdom item
Add Icy Rainments or a perfect DT Robe/Outfit

And you will lower your DPS.

[Eudimio]

Just noticed the comment on OTWF. Because rogues are 3/4 BAB, do that have trouble hitting mobs? I mean, if they do, scimitar/kurki or khopesh/kurki (leaning towards scimitar now) is always a potential option.

The short answer is no.

Rogues can get +5 to-hit with a sneak attack item (Tharnes Goggles, really a must-have). Add up to +3 for sneak attack accuracy. Add +5 or +6 for madstone rage (or double ms rage), or add +4 for a divine power clicky.

Then you get bonuses for bardsong, haste, and rage (max +9).

Human Versatility 4 gets a +5 to-hit clicky (Only when haste boost runs out!!!!).

If you want to find more bonuses:

+4 for destruction weapon/armor
+3 for exhaustion
+5 if you have a halfling friend that REALLY likes you
+2 for flanking
+1 or +2 for Litany of the Dead Trinket

Happy Hunting.

[Lymnus]

Out of curiosity, how would 1 level of monk reduce my DPS versus a level of fighter? At end game, difference is 1 point of strength (Fighter Str I, multiclassing 18/2 ftr instead of 18/1 mnk/1 ftr). If I went Monk, I couldn't wear daggertooth or DT leather, because armor=no wis bonus. Have a pair of +7 armor bracers and chaosgardes, and farming for Icys isn't too bad. I'm just not sure I understand.

[Eudimio]

Out of curiosity, how would 1 level of monk reduce my DPS versus a level of fighter? At end game, difference is 1 point of strength (Fighter Str I, multiclassing 18/2 ftr instead of 18/1 mnk/1 ftr). If I went Monk, I couldn't wear daggertooth or DT leather, because armor=no wis bonus. Have a pair of +7 armor bracers and chaosgardes, and farming for Icys isn't too bad. I'm just not sure I understand.

Power Attack > (nothing) > Combat Expertise
Focusing on AC items and weapons lessens the amount of DPS gear.
Example: What do you give up for your +4 insight bonus?
Plus, you don't have dodge or two-weapon defense listed. Do you skip them?
The AC of the two sets of gear I listed is very similar, even losing your wis bonus to AC.

[Lymnus]

Fair enough, probably want to keep this character as DPS, seeing that I already have an AC toon.

Well, thank you for all the advice you've offered so far, has significantly helped me, anything else you might consider mentioning?

[Eudimio]

Fair enough, probably want to keep this character as DPS, seeing that I already have an AC toon.

Well, thank you for all the advice you've offered so far, has significantly helped me, anything else you might consider mentioning?

Sure!

Take your splash level at level 2.
Keep UMD maxxed.
Always use the best weapon for the job, even if its a dagger, a sickle, or a greataxe.
Judiciously use your clickies.
Use a sheild at low levels or when you are being squishy.
At level 16, equiping a shield, hitting uncanny dodge and HV4 (AC), Gives you +19 AC for 20 seconds.

[Fallout]

Soul brought up some good point about STR rogues as I was also toying the idea of a str rogue TWF dorf axes. Rogue's main power is sneak attack. If you do alot of DPS, even if you take all the subtle line, you can still draw aggro away from you, and it negates your dps (sneak attack). Going with str based build also hurts your AC. It also will hurt your reflex saves. But the key thing is sneak attacks, splashing fighter classes takes away sneak attack advancements. Thats why Rad2 is critical, blinded=sneak attacks. I just made my first GS T3 item ever, Rad2 rapier, wow what a rogue life changing experience.

First time playing a rogue for me, originally I had power attack, the drow melee hit and damage enhacements etc. Then I switch to the assassin line, and swapped out power attack for CE and remove the drow melee enhacements. I barely notice much difference. Damage going to be less, but as long as I'm nailing them for the sneak attack (untyped damage), then it compensates for some of the regular attack loss.

So as I learnt the hard way:

1) You do big DPS only if you don't have aggro unless mob is blinded. (Thats why Rad2 is a must have)
2) You reduce some reflex saves and trap abilities.
3) You reduce DPS due to splashing classes (sneak attack levels)

Going the route you are taking makes synergy harder to do. But important thing is having fun. But in back of your mind, just be aware of rogue's strengths and weaknesses.

[krud]

Start with 13 dex, eat the +2 tome, take twf at 3, take ITWF at 9 after you use your level 4 and 8 level up stat point to get your dex to 17. The points you'd save could all go into charisma and basically eliminate the need for that skill focus UMD (or at least be almost as good as the feat) and you could take something like force of personality instead to take advantage of your uber new cha score. Would bulk up your bluff, diplo, and intimidate checks as well. Yes, you'd lose 2 strength which doesn't mean a whole lot. A +3 str tome and your level 20 level up stat increase will get you right back to 30.
It's always better to put your level up points into your highest stat, in this case str. It's the most efficient way to spend your build points