Ranger/wizard - looking at 20th level

[Thrudh]

So my ranger/wizard is currently 11/5... I find this to be a very good build, especially when combined with the hafling dragonmarks (Rangers get devotion enhancements, Wizard levels gets you two free meta-magic feats - Extend and Maximize - which work on dragonmarks)

Anyway.... I designed him for level 16 long ago... never gave much thought to level 20... Not sure which way to take him...


15/5 Ranger/wizard
PROS

Another favored enemy and +3 damage to all existing favored enemies (this is huge)
Freedom of Movement

CONS

Only get two 3rd level wizard spells, would like to have 3 so I could carry haste, displacement, AND rage all the time.
Only 55% success rate on GH and True-seeing scrolls (this is annoying), 75% on Teleport, have to scroll Fire Shield - only 45 secs



14/6 Ranger/wizard
PROS

Freedom of Movement
+1 damage to all favored enemies
Three 3rd level wizard spells, so I can carry rage, displacement, AND haste..
Scroll use chances go up by 10%

CONS

No 4th favored enemy
No 4th level wizard spells - have to scroll Fire Shield - only 45 secs



13/7 Ranger/wizard
PROS

+1 damage to all favored enemies
Three 3rd level wizard spells, so I can carry rage, displacement, AND haste..
Scroll use chances go up by 20%
Two 4th level wizard spells - self-cast FireShield (2 minutes or so), Solid Fog, or even a pretty decent Firewall (30% damage enhancements, 50% Sup Potency, Maximize feat)

CONS

No 4th favored enemy
No Freedom of Movement



12/8 Ranger/wizard
PROS

Three 3rd level wizard spells, so I can carry rage, displacement, AND haste..
Scroll use chances go up by 30%
Three 4th level wizard spells - self-cast FireShield (2 minutes or so), Solid Fog, AND even a pretty decent Firewall (30% damage enhancements, 50% Sup Potency, Maximize feat)

CONS

No 4th favored enemy
No +1 damage to favored enemies
No Freedom of Movement


Right now, I'm leaning towards 14/6 or 12/8

However, something else to consider is the future... If they ever do raise the level cap again, it'll probably be two levels... Even though 12/8 is better NOW than 13/7, maybe I should go 13/7 so if they ever raise the cap, I can get to 15/7... Or should I plan for the best I can get right now (I'm guessing it will a LONG time before the cap is raised again).

Which option do you think is the best? Am I missing any PROS or CONS?

[Xyfiel]

How do you play though? If all out melee, the extra wizard levels will lower your bab unless using divine power clickies. If you had fog and wall of fire would you have the sps to cast it often and would you?

Due to PrE's, I would start off at 12/6. Would you be interested in or gain anything from another class?

Freedom can be cast by others or gotten from item(s). Is FoM more important to you then Fireshield? If they ever add FoM scrolls, you will hate not having 96 second fireshields. Also, the extra damage you can do with firewall will outdo +1 FE damage most of the time.

My vote, 12/8, with option of adding another class if it >wiz7-8.

[Thrudh]

How do you play though? If all out melee, the extra wizard levels will lower your bab unless using divine power clickies. If you had fog and wall of fire would you have the sps to cast it often and would you?

Due to PrE's, I would start off at 12/6. Would you be interested in or gain anything from another class?

Freedom can be cast by others or gotten from item(s). Is FoM more important to you then Fireshield? If they ever add FoM scrolls, you will hate not having 96 second fireshields. Also, the extra damage you can do with firewall will outdo +1 FE damage most of the time.

My vote, 12/8, with option of adding another class if it >wiz7-8.


Good questions... He's full out melee... the current wizard levels are purely for buffs (jump, blur, exp retreat, shield, haste, displacement).

I don't have any problems hitting anything now... The only time I use a divine power clickable is to get my manyshot up to max... But you're right that this could be an issue in the future...

The only other class I would consider would be 2 levels of fighter for the feats, but probably not worth it (if I wasn't neutral good, I'd take one level of monk for sure for a quick and painless 6 extra AC)

I have a lot of SP now (771) and I never run out, but that's just used for buffing... I doubt I could throw down more than two or three firewalls between shrines...

I'll definitely be taking my 12th level of ranger when the cap goes up... I'll then probably play my other characters to get a feel for the end-game before deciding what to do with the rest of my levels.

[Gol]

Personally, I would get to 14/5 and stop until they announce what the tier 1 wizard PrEs will give. Specifically, Pale Master. In PnP, it provides a significant boost to Strength (+4) fairly early in the PrC. You'll be able to gain experience all the way to the cap, but just have to not actually take the last level. I'm going to do this on both of my clerics until I can find out what the entrance requirements will be for the cleric PrEs.

After they provide some details about the Wizard PrEs, you can make a more informed decision. I would like to hope that we have respec implemented by then, but I wouldn't count on it and I'd hate to have made poor decisions because there was no information available.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I debated this with my Wiz 5 as well. But mines a different build and only you know your char best.

Can't you get by just fine with Rage from scrolls? And Heroism scrolls/pots?

Firewall makes you more into a caster. I loved the short time that I could buy firewall scrolls, but I get by just fine without them.

FoM is very nice......but I have the Kundarek boots....I sometimes use scrolls of Sleet Storm and kite things through it.

FireShield is the one really good thing that I would be tempted to take more Wiz lvs for. It would be a really cool buff. (does empower/mazimize work with it?)
And scrolls are too short IMO.

In my case I really want more Rgr lvls, but mine will only have Rgr11 at the end. You've already got that.

Mnk might give you more AC and another feat...or more.
Ftr gives good feats.
But Freedom of Movement is nice. But there are a couple items that give it.

So IMO
FireShield?
Or FoM?
Or feats?
Or AC?

[Thrudh]

Okay, now I'm thinking about maybe adding a rogue level to the mix...

I might go 12/7/1 Ranger/Wizard/Rogue...

I've decided I defintely want 6 levels of Wizard so I can self-cast Haste,Displacement, and Rage all the time... (plus who knows what the Wizard PrE will be?)

I'll probably go 7 levels of wizard just for the fun factor of firewall (plus FireShield or Solid Fog).

8 levels of wizard doesn't give much over 7 levels (An extra 4th level spell is about it) And 1 level of rogue gives sneak attack (1d6+3 - note my guy is halfling too, so he gets Guile, could make that 1d6+15 with two ranks of Guile and the VoD goggles). Plus a level of rogue will get me Open Lock (with my high Dex and a +15 item, only really need 1 rank to make it useful) and Haste Boost.

I think Haste Boost (15%) and the extra 6.5 damage from sneak attack (1d6+3 for 1 level of rogue) is a pretty good addition to DPS...

[Phidius]

So my ranger/wizard is currently 11/5... I find this to be a very good build, especially when combined with the hafling dragonmarks (Rangers get devotion enhancements, Wizard levels gets you two free meta-magic feats - Extend and Maximize - which work on dragonmarks)
<snip>


I knew that the metamagics work on the dragon marks, but I didn't realize the Ranger devotion enhanced the Healing marks...

Can you confirm this please?

[Aeyr]

Okay, now I'm thinking about maybe adding a rogue level to the mix...

I might go 12/7/1 Ranger/Wizard/Rogue...

I've decided I defintely want 6 levels of Wizard so I can self-cast Haste,Displacement, and Rage all the time... (plus who knows what the Wizard PrE will be?)

I'll probably go 7 levels of wizard just for the fun factor of firewall (plus FireShield or Solid Fog).

8 levels of wizard doesn't give much over 7 levels (An extra 4th level spell is about it) And 1 level of rogue gives sneak attack (1d6+3 - note my guy is halfling too, so he gets Guile, could make that 1d6+15 with two ranks of Guile and the VoD goggles). Plus a level of rogue will get me Open Lock (with my high Dex and a +15 item, only really need 1 rank to make it useful) and Haste Boost.

I think Haste Boost (15%) and the extra 6.5 damage from sneak attack (1d6+3 for 1 level of rogue) is a pretty good addition to DPS...

I have a very similar build to this (my first character actually) and love the character still too. Right now I'm in the same boat in deciding that going 1 rogue and 7 wiz gives the most "bang for the buck" with the haste boost, small sneak attack, and rogue enhancements (+ saves vs traps and sneak attack training for instance) along with level 4 wiz spells, the wiz Prestige Enhancement tier 1 (it will be awhile in coming though), etc. Keep in mind that 'wall of fire' may not be very dependable against many of the demons in mod 9+.

Here's a snippet from a table I put together with some of my leading ideas (hope it pastes in alright):

Ra/Wi/Ro Notable Abilities
11 /9 /0 Cloudkill, Teleport, Firewall, Fireshield, Stoneskin, Wiz PrE 1, Rang PrE 1
14 /5 /1 OL, UMD, 1d6 S/A, Freedom of Mvmnt, Haste boost, 4 arrow multishot, Rang PrE 2
12 /5 /3 OL (pumped), UMD, 2d6 S/A, Haste boost, 4 arrow multishot, Rang PrE 2
12 /7 /1 OL, UMD, 1d6 S/A, Haste boost, Firewall, Fireshield, Stnskin, Rang PrE 2, Wiz PrE 1

These were just some of the main things I found to be important in my decision making process. There are several other minor differences between the builds including minor differences in saving throws, BAB, available skill points, hit points, etc. There's also the R 15/ W 5 for more favored enemy bonuses if you're so inclined. Anyway, I hope this helps.

[Goldeneye]

I think the best would be 11 Ranger, 9 Wizard
That allows for level 5 spells: Cloudkill, Break Enchantment, Hold Monster (thought crappy DC) Protection from Elements

[Thrudh]

I knew that the metamagics work on the dragon marks, but I didn't realize the Ranger devotion enhanced the Healing marks...

Can you confirm this please?

Yep, this is correct... Metamagics and devotion enhancements both work on the healing dragonmarks...

[Thrudh]

I think the best would be 11 Ranger, 9 Wizard
That allows for level 5 spells: Cloudkill, Break Enchantment, Hold Monster (thought crappy DC) Protection from Elements

Hmm... interesting...

I wanted the 12 ranger for possible use of Prestige Enhancements... plus to max out barkskin... but I guess it really doesn't offer much over 11.. so I suppose it's possible I could stop at 11 levels of ranger...

But 9 levels of wizard I don't think is worth it... Cloudkill is the only good 5th level wizard spell I could use... DC will be too crappy for Break Enchantment and Hold Monster... Protection from Elements would be nice, but rangers get the individual Protection spell anyway..