Ranger Another 18/1/1. But this one is called God. [Archive]

Aaxeyu

03-22-2009, 11:14 AM

Link to the thread on the EU forums http://community.codemasters.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5007968&postcount=1

This is my take on rangers, and it looks pretty good too me.

Name: XXXXX Almighty
Class: Ranger 18 / monk 1 / rogue 1
Race: Human
Allignment: Lawful Neutral.

Starting Stats:
Str 16
Dex 16
Con 12
Int 8
Wis 15
Cha 8

Ending Stats:
Str 32 (16 base + 5 level + 6 item + 3 tome + 2 rams )
Dex 28 (16 base + 3 tome + 6 item + 2 ranger enhancement +1 enhancement)
Con 20 (12 base + 2 tome + 6 item)
Int 10 (8 base + 2 tome)
Wis 28 (15 base +3 tome + 6 item +2 shroud weapon +1 enhancement +1 DT armor)
Cha 10 (8 base + 2 tome)

Final AC Breakdown:
10 Base
9 dex
9 wisdom
6 armor
2 chaosgarde
5 deflection
1 Dodge
3 Chattering Ring
4 insight
1 Ritual
4 tempest shield bonus
3 Favored
(2 defensive fighting)
----------------
57 (59) - unbuffed
----------------
5 barkskin
1 haste
2 recitation
----------------
65 (67) - self buffed
----------------
6 aura
4 bard song
----------------
75 (77) with party buffs

Can also boost for 4 more.

Enhancements

Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Ranger Sprint Boost I
Enhancement: Human Adaptability I: Dexterity
Enhancement: Human Adaptability II: Wisdom
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery III
Enhancement: Human Versatility III
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Attack II
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Damage IV
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Defense III
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Resistance II
Enhancement: Ranger Tempest III
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
Enhancement: Ranger Devotion IV
Enhancement: Ranger Dexterity II
Enhancement: Rogue Improved Trap Sense I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II

Feats:
1.Dodge
1 (human).Mobility
2 (Monk). Power attack
3.Khopesh
6.Spring attack
9.Oversized two weapon fighting
12.Improved critical piercing
15.Empower healing
18.Toughness

Saves Unbuffed
Fortitude: 26 (11 Ranger + 2 monk + 5 con + 5 res +1 ritual +2 vs favored)
Reflex: 32 (11 Ranger + 2 monk +2 rogue + 9 dex + 5 res +1 ritual +2 vs favored ( +2 vs traps))
Will: 25 (6 Ranger + 2 monk + 9 wis +5 res + 1 ritual +2 vs favored)

Saves Self Buffed
Fortitude: 32 ( + 4 GH +2 reci)
Reflex: 39( + 4 GH + 1 haste +2 reci)
Will: 31 ( + 4 GH +2 reci)

Hit Points
6 Rogue
8 Monk
144 Ranger
100con
20 heroic durability
10 draconic vitality
44 toughness
30 greater false life
45 shroud item
20 Toughness enhancement
---------------
427 hp

Skill Points:

Max concentration, balance, jump, umd and put points spare points in tumble.

If you want intimi, don't put the spare points in tumble and drop some points from jump and balance and put it in intimidate.

UMD:
23 ranks
+6 shroud item
+3 cha item
+4 boost
+5 seven fingered gloves
+4 gh
+2 head
--------------
47

Items

Weapon: Mineral II Khopesh, Insight
Offhand: Mineral II Khopesh, 2 wisdom
Head: Minos
Goggles: Tharnes
Armor: Dragontouched outfit with +5 res, +1 wisdom and Destruction/radience guard
Bracers: Chaosgarde
Gloves: 10 hp, +6 wisdom, +5 cha skills, 150 sp, conc opp.
Ring: chattering ring
Ring: greater false life
Boots: +6 dex
Belt: +6 str
Cloak: 35 hp, +5 prot, heavy fort, wizardy VI, +1 cha skills
Necklace: +6 con
Trinket: Bloodstone

If you are lucky enough to the titan belt you can use that and tumbleweed to free up the boots slot and gain +2 tohit.

What's special with this build?
Good dps, high selfbuffed AC without PA so can be in DPS mode all the time.
Great selfhealing with CSW for 120+ hp without having to swap to scrolls.

Strengths .v. Weaknesses
+Good dps (~400 dps, Fighters have ~500)
+High ac
+High saves
+High umd
+Decent hp
+Very good selfhealing
+Great versatility
+Evasion

-Low damage compared to fighter builds

Aspenor

03-22-2009, 11:22 AM

Just pointing out a typo:
(nevermind I found the additional +1 charisma skill on another item)
Tempest shield bonus to AC caps at +3, not +4.

You also might want to clarify that the HV boost isn't permanent to UMD.

as far as UMD goes, thats a LOT of swapping items to use UMD. I'm going to assume you only will use it for ress's since you'd have to swap out for 7 fingered gloves AND a charisma cloak to get your UMD as high as you posted. You don't have a charisma item, Head of Good Fortune, nor the gloves on your gear list, so that's starting out at -14 already (although 33 UMD is respectable).

May I ask why you have Wizardry VI twice? One GS item has 150 SP on it, and another has Wiz 6. I don't think your gloves can have ALL those effects on them at once.

icculus

03-22-2009, 11:36 AM

This is my take on rangers, and it looks pretty good too me.

The last time you started with a similar comment, 20odd pages later you were still wrong... :rolleyes:

Aspenor

03-22-2009, 11:38 AM

The last time you started with a similar comment, 20odd pages later you were still wrong... :rolleyes:

it's a good build, I'm just having a little confusion with his GS items.

Borror0

03-22-2009, 11:42 AM

If I get this right, it's a weaker version of the Exploiter and thus is called 'God'? Someone else sees a problem here?

Borror0

03-22-2009, 11:45 AM

it's a good build, I'm just having a little confusion with his GS items.
Sickness' problem has never been that he posts horrible builds. His builds are certainly playable...

Aspenor

03-22-2009, 11:45 AM

Borror0

03-22-2009, 11:52 AM

Well i was trying to ignore the grandiose build title. It's a little preposterous.
Well, since Sickness posts builds so that we can stroke his ego, I feel compelled to remind him there is a better version of the build that was posted long before he posted his. In fact, it's quite likely inspired himself from Exploiter (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=168687) to build this build.

Sadly for him, there won't be any ego stroking since he made the build worse rather than better. Ironic for a self-titled god.

MrCow

03-22-2009, 11:54 AM

Great selfhealing with CSW for 120+ hp without having to swap to scrolls.

Might you show the math on this? As far as I can see you only have 130% divine healing (100% base * 30% human recovery III) and nothing to increase the potency of wands/potions.

Aspenor

03-22-2009, 11:55 AM

Well, since Sickness posts builds so that we can stroke his ego, I feel compelled to remind him there is a better version of the build that was posted long before he posted his. In fact, it's quite likely inspired himself from Exploiter (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=168687) to build this build.

Sadly for him, there won't be any ego stroking since he made the build worse rather than better. Ironic for a self-titled god.

True enough. Einarmal's build is clearly superior.

Aspenor

03-22-2009, 11:56 AM

Might you show the math on this? As far as I can see you only have 130% divine healing (100% base * 30% human recovery III) and nothing to increase the potency of wands/potions.

Empower healing....

on a ranger build.

I get the point, but I'm not thinking he has as many spell points as he thinks.

MrCow

03-22-2009, 12:00 PM

Empower healing....

Heh, its so rare that I see rangers heal from SP that I completely missed that.

Lawst

03-22-2009, 12:01 PM

Here are his Gloves (http://img17.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gloveso.jpg) if you were wondering how he did it... :D

Aaxeyu

03-22-2009, 12:04 PM

Tempest shield bonus to AC caps at +3, not +4.

No, it caps at +4.

Ranger Tempest III
Benefit: Your skill with two weapons is unequaled - your training has turned you into a whirling tempest of steel, granting a 10% competence bonus to dual wield attack speed, a +4 shield bonus to armor class when two weapon fighting, your penalty to hit has been reduced by 2, and you gain additional attacks when two weapon fighting.

You also might want to clarify that the HV boost isn't permanent to UMD.

as far as UMD goes, thats a LOT of swapping items to use UMD. I'm going to assume you only will use it for ress's since you'd have to swap out for 7 fingered gloves AND a charisma cloak to get your UMD as high as you posted. You don't have a charisma item, Head of Good Fortune, nor the gloves on your gear list, so that's starting out at -14 already (although 33 UMD is respectable).

Yes, but in what situations do you need that high UMD really?
Healscroll is only 40, and my CSWs will be almost as good.

You can use the boost when you need to ressurect or teleport etc.
I would figure that most people understands this.

May I ask why you have Wizardry VI twice? One GS item has 150 SP on it, and another has Wiz 6. I don't think your gloves can have ALL those effects on them at once.

I only have Wizardry VI once.
There is nothing wrong with those GS item.

Aspenor

03-22-2009, 12:08 PM

No, it caps at +4.

Yes, but in what situations do you need that high UMD really?
Healscroll is only 40, and my CSWs will be almost as good.

You can use the boost when you need to ressurect or teleport etc.
I would figure that most people understands this.

I only have Wizardry VI once.
There is nothing wrong with those GS item.

Ah, well don't get your panties in a twist. So I was wrong about your GS items, oh well. I am aware you don't NEED a UMD that high, and that Heal scrolls are DC 40. I'm just saying that you're posting in a manner that makes your abilities seem greater than they really are.

Lawst

03-22-2009, 12:08 PM

And here is his Cloak (http://img12.imageshack.us/my.php?image=cloaks.jpg) ... my cookie cutter build has 604 sp with a similar set up and wisdom is sitting at a 24 so he should have the sp, with scrolls to back himself up in between fights.. not that I think this build is superior or inferior. It's just another "Cookie"... lol

Aspenor

03-22-2009, 12:11 PM

Aaxeyu

03-22-2009, 12:11 PM

If I get this right, it's a weaker version of the Exploiter and thus is called 'God'? Someone else sees a problem here?

Well i was trying to ignore the grandiose build title. It's a little preposterous.

Hehe, don't take it so seriously. There was a spree of named builds on the EU forums, I had to beat The Rambo, and God was the only name I could think of ^^
Click the link and read the introduction I wrote for the EU forums and you might realise that it's just for fun.

It's humor:D

Well, since Sickness posts builds so that we can stroke his ego, I feel compelled to remind him there is a better version of the build that was posted long before he posted his. In fact, it's quite likely inspired himself from Exploiter (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=168687) to build this build.

Sadly for him, there won't be any ego stroking since he made the build worse rather than better. Ironic for a self-titled god.

I post builds here because I'm bored.

I actually disagree, I prefer the healing spec and no wasted points in int to get CE.
But 'm sure you have an argument to why the exploiter is a better build?

Borror0

03-22-2009, 12:11 PM

Might you show the math on this? As far as I can see you only have 130% divine healing
He has Empower Healing and Ranger Devotion IV too.

Minimum:
24*1.4*1.5*1.3=65.5

Average:
31.5*1.4*1.5*1.3=86.0

Maximum:
39.0*1.4*1.5*1.3=106.0

Obviously, he failed his math on that one when he said "CSW for 120+ hp".

Aaxeyu

03-22-2009, 12:15 PM

Ah, well don't get your panties in a twist. So I was wrong about your GS items, oh well. I am aware you don't NEED a UMD that high, and that Heal scrolls are DC 40. I'm just saying that you're posting in a manner that makes your abilities seem greater than they really are.

Well, I am posting after the standard that have been set on the EU forums.
I think everyone there understand that you need to swap items and that boost is not permanent.
It migth be different on these forum though... but what do I know?

Nyvn

03-22-2009, 12:16 PM

May I ask why you have Wizardry VI twice? One GS item has 150 SP on it, and another has Wiz 6. I don't think your gloves can have ALL those effects on them at once.

The gloves look like Neg Elemental Energy, Pos Spell Power, Pos Greater Spell Power, not Wiz VI. Meaning 10HP, 150SP, 6 Wisdom, 5 Char Skills.

Aaxeyu

03-22-2009, 12:16 PM

He has Empower Healing and Ranger Devotion IV too.

Minimum:
24*1.4*1.5*1.3=65.5

Average:
31.5*1.4*1.5*1.3=86.0

Maximum:
39.0*1.4*1.5*1.3=106.0

Obviously, he failed his math on that one when he said "CSW for 120+ hp".

You know that swaping to a devotion item is not hard at all, right?

Aaxeyu

03-22-2009, 12:17 PM

Empower healing....

on a ranger build.

I get the point, but I'm not thinking he has as many spell points as he thinks.

5-600 SP wont be a problem to reach, and that gives quite alot of healing.

Aspenor

03-22-2009, 12:19 PM

The gloves look like Neg Elemental Energy, Pos Spell Power, Pos Greater Spell Power, not Wiz VI. Meaning 10HP, 150SP, 6 Wisdom, 5 Char Skills.

Thanks again lol :) Somebody beat you to the punch Nyv.

Aspenor

03-22-2009, 12:24 PM

You know that swaping to a devotion item is not hard at all, right?

so instead of swapping to a heal scroll you swap to a devotion item? doesn't that defeat the purpose?

Aaxeyu

03-22-2009, 12:27 PM

so instead of swapping to a heal scroll you swap to a devotion item? doesn't that defeat the purpose?

Swapping rings take what, 0.5-1 second?
And CSW don't have 6 sec cooldown.

Aspenor

03-22-2009, 01:19 PM

maddmatt70

03-22-2009, 01:26 PM

Wouldn't you be better off Raiment farming than hitting up Sorjek, for months possibly? If you have your DT armor complete, go ahead and ignore this point. You could easily put on the VOD Tharne's bracers and an icy raiment, lose only 2 to saves (which you can easily spare) and gain +1 armor class. This would open your boot slot for either another GS item, or something else like striding 30's or Firestorm Greaves. Heck, the DR 3/- from the Golden Greaves is pretty sweet, too. If you can get your hands on +7 or +8 armor bracers, of which +7's aren't that hard to come by, you'd gain another +1 to +2 armor class, as well.

Just a suggestion. I am impartial, because grinding Sorjek for a specific suit of DT armor seems like a worse grind than an Icy Raiment.

Well I have to say aspenor. I have done 50 GOP runs (in guild for a specific guild member to get the icy) and 80 subterrane runs( with about half guild members in the run) and no icy rainment. Do the darn things still exist or where they removed from the loot tables inquiring minds want to know..

Borror0

03-22-2009, 01:29 PM

I actually disagree, I prefer the healing spec and no wasted points in int to get CE.
But 'm sure you have an argument to why the exploiter is a better build?
If you say this, then it means I would waste keystrokes explaining you why.

Aspenor

03-22-2009, 01:33 PM

Well I have to say aspenor. I have done 50 GOP runs (in guild for a specific guild member to get the icy) and 80 subterrane runs( with about half guild members in the run) and no icy rainment. Do the darn things still exist or where they removed from the loot tables inquiring minds want to know..

Of course they're still there, with a lower drop rate. I've pulled them twice. He could easily be looking at just as many runs through the Reaver's Refuge chain as you've done in GOP and Sub.

It's really just an alternative suggestion, I'm not saying either one is "better." When I said "better off," I just meant that the grind may be lessened. It might not be.

Ollathir

03-22-2009, 01:43 PM

link To The Thread On The Eu Forums http://community.codemasters.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5007968&postcount=1

This Is My Take On Rangers, And It Looks Pretty Good Too Me.

name: Yhwh Almighty
class: Ranger 18 / Monk 1 / Rogue 1
race: Human
allignment: Lawful Neutral.

starting Stats:
Str 16
Dex 16
Con 12
Int 8
Wis 15
Cha 8

ending Stats:
Str 32 (16 Base + 5 Level + 6 Item + 3 Tome + 2 Rams )
Dex 28 (16 Base + 3 Tome + 6 Item + 2 Ranger Enhancement +1 Enhancement)
Con 20 (12 Base + 2 Tome + 6 Item)
Int 10 (8 Base + 2 Tome)
Wis 28 (15 Base +3 Tome + 6 Item +2 Shroud Weapon +1 Enhancement +1 Dt Armor)
Cha 10 (8 Base + 2 Tome)

final Ac Breakdown:
10 Base
9 Dex
9 Wisdom
6 Armor
2 Chaosgarde
5 Deflection
1 Dodge
3 Chattering Ring
4 Insight
1 Ritual
4 Tempest Shield Bonus
3 Favored
(2 Defensive Fighting)
----------------
57 (59) - Unbuffed
----------------
5 Barkskin
1 Haste
2 Recitation
----------------
65 (67) - Self Buffed
----------------
6 Aura
4 Bard Song
----------------
75 (77) With Party Buffs

Can Also Boost For 4 More.

enhancements

Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Ranger Sprint Boost I
Enhancement: Human Adaptability I: Dexterity
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Ii: Wisdom
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery Iii
Enhancement: Human Versatility Iii
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Attack Ii
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Damage Iv
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Defense Iii
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Resistance Ii
Enhancement: Ranger Tempest Iii
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
Enhancement: Ranger Devotion Iv
Enhancement: Ranger Dexterity Ii
Enhancement: Rogue Improved Trap Sense I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness Ii

feats:
1.dodge
1 (human).mobility
2 (monk). Power Attack
3.khopesh
6.spring Attack
9.oversized Two Weapon Fighting
12.improved Critical Piercing
15.empower Healing
18.toughness

saves Unbuffed
Fortitude: 26 (11 Ranger + 2 Monk + 5 Con + 5 Res +1 Ritual +2 Vs Favored)
Reflex: 32 (11 Ranger + 2 Monk +2 Rogue + 9 Dex + 5 Res +1 Ritual +2 Vs Favored ( +2 Vs Traps))
Will: 25 (6 Ranger + 2 Monk + 9 Wis +5 Res + 1 Ritual +2 Vs Favored)

saves Self Buffed
Fortitude: 32 ( + 4 Gh +2 Reci)
Reflex: 39( + 4 Gh + 1 Haste +2 Reci)
Will: 31 ( + 4 Gh +2 Reci)

hit Points
6 Rogue
8 Monk
144 Ranger
100con
20 Heroic Durability
10 Draconic Vitality
44 Toughness
30 Greater False Life
45 Shroud Item
20 Toughness Enhancement
---------------
427 Hp

skill Points:

Max Concentration, Balance, Jump, Umd And Put Points Spare Points In Tumble.

umd:
23 Ranks
+6 Shroud Item
+3 Cha Item
+4 Boost
+5 Seven Fingered Gloves
+4 Gh
+2 Head
--------------
47

items

Weapon: Mineral Ii Khopesh, Insight
Offhand: Mineral Ii Khopesh, 2 Wisdom
Head: Minos
Goggles: Tharnes
Armor: Dragontouched Outfit With +5 Res, +1 Wisdom And Destruction/radience Guard
Bracers: Chaosgarde
Gloves: 10 Hp, +6 Wisdom, +5 Cha Skills, 150 Sp, Conc Opp.
Ring: Chattering Ring
Ring: Greater False Life
Boots: +6 Dex
Belt: +6 Str
Cloak: 35 Hp, +5 Prot, Heavy Fort, Wizardy Vi, +1 Cha Skills
Necklace: +6 Con
Trinket: Bloodstone

If You Are Lucky Enough To The Titan Belt You Can Use That And Tumbleweed To Free Up The Boots Slot And Gain +2 Tohit.

what's Special With This Build?
Good Dps, High Selfbuffed Ac Without Pa So Can Be In Dps Mode All The Time.
Great Selfhealing With Csw For 120+ Hp Without Having To Swap To Scrolls.

strengths .v. Weaknesses
+good Dps (~400 Dps, Fighters Have ~500)
+high Ac
+high Saves
+high Umd
+decent Hp
+very Good Selfhealing
+great Versatility
+evasion

-low Damage Compared To Fighter Builds

Lol

Aaxeyu

03-22-2009, 01:45 PM

Wouldn't you be better off Raiment farming than hitting up Sorjek, for months possibly? If you have your DT armor complete, go ahead and ignore this point. You could easily put on the VOD Tharne's bracers and an icy raiment, lose only 2 to saves (which you can easily spare) and gain +1 armor class. This would open your boot slot for either another GS item, or something else like striding 30's or Firestorm Greaves. Heck, the DR 3/- from the Golden Greaves is pretty sweet, too. If you can get your hands on +7 or +8 armor bracers, of which +7's aren't that hard to come by, you'd gain another +1 to +2 armor class, as well.

Just a suggestion. I am impartial, because grinding Sorjek for a specific suit of DT armor seems like a worse grind than an Icy Raiment.

I appreciate the constructive comment.

Hm, I don't know. It is clearly an option, but I want destruction badly.
DT: 2 saves, 1 willsave, destruction.
Tharnes + icy: 1 AC, boot slots.
+8 armored bracers + icy: 3 AC.

I will probably have to get both, and swap around when needed. The AC is undoubtley nice, but not always needed.

Aaxeyu

03-22-2009, 01:46 PM

If you say this, then it means I would waste keystrokes explaining you why.

Well, sum up the differences and compare them, you might be surprised.

poonce

03-22-2009, 01:48 PM

Last week i Did 4 Icy runs and all 4 times it dropped. I was on my sorc just helping out and i got it once also, But i sold it out of chest for 250k Plat :)

Junts

03-22-2009, 01:53 PM

BLAKROC

03-22-2009, 01:55 PM

Well i was trying to ignore the grandiose build title. It's a little preposterous.

or blashpehmous even :(

Aaxeyu

03-22-2009, 01:57 PM

suggestion:

human improved recovery I would do a lot for your self-healing

consider the abbot silver flame helm or permanent devotion; a lot of hot swapping back andforth for as regularly as you'll need to heal with that ac.

The build have human imp recovery III.

Hm, yea that is not a bad idea.
Although I don't think I will need it.

Borror0

03-22-2009, 01:58 PM

Well, sum up the differences and compare them, you might be surprised.
"Exploiter is the successor to the Batman build whereas your version is just a bad DPS build that splashed monk because that's what the cool kids do." would sum it up nicely. I could bring other points but I have seen you "debate" often enough to know I am not interested.

Junts

03-22-2009, 02:04 PM

Aaxeyu

03-22-2009, 02:06 PM

"Exploiter is the successor to the Batman build whereas your version is just a bad DPS build that splashed monk because that's what the cool kids do." would sum it up nicely.

Do you really value trapskills that much?
Or is it the 1 higher AC in defensive mode?

I prefer empower healing, and 2 higher AC in dps mode.

Aspenor

03-22-2009, 02:06 PM

Hrrrmmmm

A rogue level, high armor class, good enough hit points, and no intimidate?????

Aaxeyu

03-22-2009, 02:10 PM

also remember that w/o meta enhancements, maximize is pretty much equal to empower healing (and gloves of glacier are a nice swap), I'd rather use those for larger burst healing, less time out of fighting if you're popping 200s on yourself

I considered maximize, but it costs more SP, and is more likely to overheal.
I am not sure of what is the best choice, but I think it is empower healing. The future will tell I guess.

PS. nice to have some constructive comment and suggestions between all flaming:)

Aaxeyu

03-22-2009, 02:13 PM

Hrrrmmmm

A rogue level, high armor class, good enough hit points, and no intimidate?????

I am no fan of trash intimi, feels like a waste off skillpoints.
Either get it very high (with feats, cha etc. etc.) or leave it.
Well, that's my opinion anyways. (Got an intimitank and a "good enogh for trash", so I know what I'm talking about)

Aaxeyu

03-22-2009, 02:14 PM

'Ersatz' is a much more fitting name than 'God' for anything you would put your name to.

What's stuck in your ass?

Aaxeyu

03-22-2009, 02:17 PM

You were a crack baby werent you

What is this guys problem?

Ollathir

03-22-2009, 02:19 PM

It's real simple there Margaret, change the name.

Borror0

03-22-2009, 02:19 PM

'Ersatz' is a much more fitting name than 'God' for anything you would put your name to.
I like it too. Can we vote?

Aaxeyu

03-22-2009, 02:19 PM

It's real simple there Margaret, change the name.

Did it offend you?

Aspenor

03-22-2009, 02:20 PM

I am no fan of trash intimi, feels like a waste off skillpoints.
Either get it very high (with feats, cha etc. etc.) or leave it.
Well, that's my opinion anyways. (Got an intimitank and a "good enogh for trash", so I know what I'm talking about)

Gotcha, just a thought. I find that even a "trash intimi" can be highly useful in nearly any given situation. For me, it absolutely drives me crazy when some idiot fighter with 50 armor class decides to intimidate monsters off my ranger/monk. I didn't take the rogue level, mostly because I just didn't feel like it. I took 2 monk instead for quick, easy access to tempest due to the two bonus feats (except mine is a halfling, so the human bonus feat makes up for this in your build).

Heck, about an hour ago I had a freakin' BARD intimidating orthons off my ranger in VOD, and every time he did his hit points would drop about 30%. Grrrrrrrr....noobs.

Aaxeyu

03-22-2009, 02:22 PM

Gotcha, just a thought. I find that even a "trash intimi" can be highly useful in nearly any given situation. For me, it absolutely drives me crazy when some idiot fighter with 50 armor class decides to intimidate monsters off my ranger/monk. I didn't take the rogue level, mostly because I just didn't feel like it. I took 2 monk instead for quick, easy access to tempest due to the two bonus feats (except mine is a halfling, so the human bonus feat makes up for this in your build).

Heck, about an hour ago I had a freakin' BARD intimidating orthons off my ranger in VOD, and every time he did his hit points would drop about 30%. Grrrrrrrr....noobs.

Rofl, yea in those situations it would be more than useful:D

Ollathir

03-22-2009, 02:22 PM

LOL. Nah, I'm just trying to flame this thread so it get's closed because I'm bored.

Of course it's offensive. The last thing I want to see is someone saying they just built a 'God' build.

baddax

03-22-2009, 02:23 PM

Well i was trying to ignore the grandiose build title. It's a little preposterous.

understatement of the year. :D

Aaxeyu

03-22-2009, 02:25 PM

LOL. Nah, I'm just trying to flame this thread so it get's closed because I'm bored.

Of course it's offensive. The last thing I want to see is someone saying they just built a 'God' build.

http://community.codemasters.com/forum/showthread.php?t=342042 Here, read the introduction. You will be even more offended. But it is all a joke really.

The build and thread was a response to a guildies thread: http://community.codemasters.com/forum/showthread.php?t=341976

Borror0

03-22-2009, 02:26 PM

Of course it's offensive. The last thing I want to see is someone saying they just built a 'God' build.
...especially when the build is far from deserving the name.

Aaxeyu

03-22-2009, 02:27 PM

...especially when the build is far from deserving the name.

Well, it's the best ranger build I have seen.

Dunno what game you play in which trapskills are so useful.

Ollathir

03-22-2009, 02:28 PM

Well, it's the best ranger build I have seen.

Dunno what game you play in which trapskills are so useful.

Probably a diffent one than you are familiar with

Korvek

03-22-2009, 02:31 PM

"Exploiter is the successor to the Batman build whereas your version is just a bad DPS build that splashed monk because that's what the cool kids do."

Hopefully Exploiter won't suffer eventual obsolescence as well.

I miss Mod 4- sometimes... :(

baddax

03-22-2009, 02:32 PM

For me i was surprised at the name. Its begging to be bashed.So dont be surprised when you get plenty of trolls. To me thats pretty petty but there are alot of petty people all over, in real life and on the net.

what stood out to me was the name YHWH, which is as opposed to any god as in The god, as a christian i would have to say i find this offensive, not enough to cry about but offensive none the less. i think you will get more flack from this than from the "god" name.

Lastly, as for the build regardless of name etc it was pretty unimpressive IMO.

Aaxeyu

03-22-2009, 02:32 PM

Probably a diffent one than you are familiar with

Enlighten me please, where is trapskills crucial?

The only place where it's worth disabling is in vod, but that's because you are not running anyways.

Junts

03-22-2009, 02:36 PM

I considered maximize, but it costs more SP, and is more likely to overheal.
I am not sure of what is the best choice, but I think it is empower healing. The future will tell I guess.

PS. nice to have some constructive comment and suggestions between all flaming:)

I'm probably biased by my paladin, but I'd rather throw one spell when I get under half that pretty much maxes me out (ala the way I use lay hands) than perioidically throw one in mid-combat to get back up from around 60%; then again, I frequently play chicken with my hp because my ac is substantially higher than your build's is, though I thrink that might be more reason for big healing; you've got enough ac to not be hit a ton, but not so high that you will slowly have your hp whittled down 20 or so per mob (like a 70+ tank does); csw as the oh **** button (and you will be using csw at 20, not cmw) is pretty nice.

Keep in mind that without quicken, though, you're gonna want some kind of concentration skill, as the concentration dc is 10 + spel level + damage suffered; even a 10 point archer plink will usually make you fail if you don't invest in concentration (or have quicken spell).

With emp healing, cmw and no concentration or quicken, imo, your healing is not an in-combat function so much as a between fights/let me run away around the corner and pop myself one so I don't fail it', much like how my sorceror uses heal scrolls (however, he has a 45 conc, so he can throw them on himself in the middle of trash if necessary). Its just not something you're gonna be able to reliably throw on yourself in the middle of 4 orthons and keep swinging.

Aaxeyu

03-22-2009, 02:36 PM

Aspenor

03-22-2009, 02:39 PM

Okay, I see. I'm from sweden so I'm not very religous.
Sorry if it offendes you.

Ofcourse it's not impressive, it's a ranger.. And naming the build God sets some expectations :P

Just an FYI, the first name of your build will, and I do mean WILL, be reported by the first highly faithful Christian and/or Jewish person that sees it. The name you chose is that name which should never be spoken, much less given to a character in a video game.

Coming from a Christian background (I'm not hardcore, but I have extensive education in religions in general) I can tell you that this is categorically true.

baddax

03-22-2009, 02:40 PM

Just an FYI, the first name of your build will, and I do mean WILL, be reported by the first highly faithful Christian and/or Jewish person that sees it. The name you chose is that name which should never be spoken, much less given to a character in a video game.

Coming from a Christian background (I'm not hardcore, but I have extensive education in religions in general) I can tell you that this is categorically true.

You are definitely right.

Aaxeyu

03-22-2009, 02:40 PM

I'm probably biased by my paladin, but I'd rather throw one spell when I get under half that pretty much maxes me out (ala the way I use lay hands) than perioidically throw one in mid-combat to get back up from around 60%; then again, I frequently play chicken with my hp because my ac is substantially higher than your build's is, though I thrink that might be more reason for big healing; you've got enough ac to not be hit a ton, but not so high that you will slowly have your hp whittled down 20 or so per mob (like a 70+ tank does); csw as the oh **** button (and you will be using csw at 20, not cmw) is pretty nice.

Keep in mind that without quicken, though, you're gonna want some kind of concentration skill, as the concentration dc is 10 + spel level + damage suffered; even a 10 point archer plink will usually make you fail if you don't invest in concentration (or have quicken spell).

With emp healing, cmw and no concentration or quicken, imo, your healing is not an in-combat function so much as a between fights/let me run away around the corner and pop myself one so I don't fail it', much like how my sorceror uses heal scrolls (however, he has a 45 conc, so he can throw them on himself in the middle of trash if necessary). Its just not something you're gonna be able to reliably throw on yourself in the middle of 4 orthons and keep swinging.

I got empowerhealing on my paladin (Yarold in my sig). The same reason there, it's more SP worth.

The build have maxed concentration ranks, so it will help.
When you mention it.. It might be a good idea to fit belt of thoughtful rememberance.

Borror0

03-22-2009, 02:41 PM

I am no fan of trash intimi, feels like a waste off skillpoints.
Not sure how you can say this. Trash mobs are actually the best reason to have Intimidate.

...especially when one already has a +5 Cha skills GS item.

Well, it's the best ranger build I have seen.
Untrue and unimportant when calling a build "God."

Dunno what game you play in which trapskills are so useful.
Totally missed the point. Perhaps you do not know what 'batman' means?

Junts

03-22-2009, 02:42 PM

some other thoughts, by the way, as I like self-healing melees:

remember that different healing amp sources are multiplicative: if you found a way to use levik's bracers on this build, you would actually get 26% more healing amp from them (as they also multiply the human healing amp bonus), which becomes pretty substantial: I'm not sure you could do this without some kind of ac sacrifice, but using dragontouched w/ insight 4 on it (you're not usually using your shroud ac weapon for trash mobs, so this mostly impacts your ac against raid bosses: you could carry a armor bracers+icy swap for those situations if youwanted) would come pretty close and let you use tempest/eldritch to save more equipment slots to work in things like static devotion or a concentration item, or other such goodnesses.

about max v emp heal: emp heal is slightly better, but the gloves of the glacier make them completely equivalent (vis a vis the lorikk's necklace, and gloves is a much better swap slot)

I used to use lorikks+emp heal on my healing-specced bard, and switched to max+glacier, and imo he is drastically more effective that way.

Aaxeyu

03-22-2009, 02:43 PM

Thriand

03-22-2009, 02:47 PM

Do you always reply to EVERY single post in one of your threads?

Aaxeyu

03-22-2009, 02:47 PM

Aaxeyu

03-22-2009, 02:50 PM

Not sure how you can say this. Trash mobs are actually the best reason to have Intimidate.

...especially when one already has a +5 Cha skills GS item.

Thrash is called trash for a reason, don't you think?

Untrue and unimportant when calling a build "God."

No, actually it is true.
But it seems that you americans really got offended by the name.

Totally missed the point. Perhaps you do not know what 'batman' means?

Yes, low dps toons with lot of utility.
Gimped if you ask me.

Junts

03-22-2009, 02:51 PM

Yea, I wanted to have 20% healing on the DT armor, but lacked AC.. I will probably end up taking what comes first of the two.

I will consider maximize, will try both when I get this toon capped. It might be better than I think it is.

Maximize is tough to heal with well until you have the gloves; the 4 sp off makes a huge difference in terms of what you pay for the spell.

Then again, I'm the guy who doesn't use empower healing on his cleric either, and just lets people get down to half before throwing a massmod that hits for 120/pop.

Trash intim can be pretty useful: I'm always fond of using intimidate for stuff like locking down Sagrata/Mitanu, or standing in the web/sym of stun/dancing orb and intimidating to actually force people to take advantage of the cc isntead of fighting outside it: intimdiate and tumble into the aoe really makes cc more effective

Korvek

03-22-2009, 02:55 PM

But it seems that you americans really got offended by the name.

For whatever it's worth here, I believe Borr is French Canadian.

Borror0

03-22-2009, 02:56 PM

Thrash is called trash for a reason, don't you think?
True. Gamers like hyperbolic terms to describe things. How we use 'broken' is a perfect example.

But it seems that you americans really got offended by the name.
I did not get offended by the religious aspect of the name but by how pretentious it was.

Yes, low dps toons with lot of utility.
Gimped if you ask me.
Wow. Fail DDO history class, did you?

Aaxeyu

03-22-2009, 02:56 PM

for Whatever It's Worth Here, I Believe Borr Is French Canadian.

Nvm

Korvek

03-22-2009, 02:57 PM

Canada is still in America thou.

Indeed, though in my experience when people refer to "America" they're very rarely referring to the continent.

Aaxeyu

03-22-2009, 03:00 PM

True. Gamers like hyperbolic terms to describe things. How we use 'broken' is a perfect example.

If you have problem with trashmobs, well that's too bad.

I did not get offended by the religious aspect of the name but by how pretentious it was.

Okay, well the pretentious aspect was intended. But offended, really?

Wow. Fail DDO history class, did you?

No, I don't have DDO history classes.
I don't live in the past either, unlike you.

Aaxeyu

03-22-2009, 03:01 PM

Indeed, though in my experience when people refer to "America" they're very rarely referring to the continent.

Yea, sorry I realised that. But I actually meant canada too as I know he is from canada:P

My bad mate.

baddax

03-22-2009, 03:02 PM

As a caster you dont know how many times i have layed down CC only to see it go to waste. Web,Ck,Symbols etc etc. People, in such a hurry to get kills completely do not fight in CC. This is a personal pet pev of mine on my caster.

I remember one time running up my fighter and watching another intim tank using intim while standing outside (inches) of a casters firewall. if i could have i would have smacked him!

Lastly as a fighter with intim currently it is 40ish unbuffed(dont ask) i find it very useful for seperating trash mobs from bosses. ie VOD 40 is plenty for trash and red named ortons but i rarely if ever get solu. So i can pull trash away and make it easer to kill while letteing the main intim. keep agro. I also use it to draw trash mobs into caster cc which helps everybody.

baddax

03-22-2009, 03:04 PM

For whatever it's worth here, I believe Borr is French Canadian.

That explains it all! :eek:

Robi3.0

03-22-2009, 03:11 PM

This is kinda of a Hijack, but since it was brought up. What is a good benchmark intimidate skill mod for intimidating trash mobs? I am not a number cruncher and was just curious.

Borror0

03-22-2009, 03:12 PM

If you have problem with trashmobs, well that's too bad.
Of course not. I was rather stating that dealing with trash mobs does influence the outcome of a quest.

I don't live in the past either, unlike you.
Your inability to infer properly is stunningly amazing.

My original comment was that your build is a bad DPS build whereas the Exploiter build makes his DPS trade offs worthwhile the same way the Batman build did (actually, in nearly the same way - how similar the two builds operate is shocking - history is repeating itself, as they say).

Aaxeyu

03-22-2009, 03:20 PM

Of course not. I was rather stating that dealing with trash mobs does influence the outcome of a quest.

Well, kill them and move on.

Your inability to infer properly is stunningly amazing.

My original comment was that your build is a bad DPS build whereas the Exploiter build makes his DPS trade offs worthwhile the same way the Batman build did (actually, in nearly the same way - how similar the two builds operate is shocking - history is repeating itself, as they say).

Yes, but I don't agree that the Exploiters trade offs are worth it.
In a different time where trapskills matter I would agree with you, but what's the point to sacrifice AC or DPS just to be able to disable traps, when there is no traps to disable?

Yes, I know that traps do exsists but skipping them is faster, so there is no point to disable.

Borror0

03-22-2009, 03:24 PM

Well, kill them and move on.
Oversimplification. Well, not like if I thought you really cared.

In a different time where trapskills matter I would agree with you, but what's the point to sacrifice AC or DPS just to be able to disable traps, when there is no traps to disable?
Perhaps you should learn about the build before criticizing it.

Junts

03-22-2009, 03:29 PM

This is kinda of a Hijack, but since it was brought up. What is a good benchmark intimidate skill mod for intimidating trash mobs? I am not a number cruncher and was just curious.

low-mid 40s will get you everything in the game on every difficulty except:

xyzzy
suulomades
lailat
damasze
mitanu on elite
arraetrikos (not that it matters)

Borror0

03-22-2009, 03:32 PM

low-mid 40s will get you everything in the game on every difficulty except:
You forgot the Reaver, if it really matters.

I'll also mention that mid-40's is ridiculously easy to achieve.

Aaxeyu

03-22-2009, 03:37 PM

Perhaps you should learn about the build before criticizing it.

I know the Exploiter. It is highly overrated too.
Sure, It can reach 1 AC higher than my ranger, but that is only in defensive mode.
I'm gonna quote a friend: "98% of this games revolves around hitting things".
With that in mind, is it really that impressive to be better in defensive mode, when my ranger is better in offensive mode?

I think my ranger have combined offense and defense great with high AC and good selfhealing without gimping your DPS with CE.

Also, the selfhealing not as good on The Exploiter, as he lacks empower healing.

Now if you would actually say what is better with the exploiter instead of just saying that batmans were good and the exploiter is similiar to them.

Aaxeyu

03-22-2009, 03:47 PM

Edited the skill section of the OP. Intimi is easy to get if you wan't it.

Aaxeyu

03-22-2009, 04:17 PM

Here is an analysis of the exploiterss stats and AC vs my rangers.

The Exploiter
(Human Male Ranger 18/Monk 1/Rogue 1)

Stats:
Str 15
Dex 15
Con 14
Int 12
Wis 14
Cha 8

My ranger:
Starting Stats:
Str 16
Dex 16
Con 12
Int 8
Wis 15
Cha 8

By dumping int I have gotten 2 AC that the exploiter don't have (as human I will be able to get even stats to get the extra ACs points).

However, the exploiter got 2 skillpoints per level which he put in DD, he also took search instead of concentration.
And he got CE. CE is 3 AC above defensive fighting, but also another -1 to tohit.
So in defensive mode The Exploiters AC is 1 higher now, but remember that My ranger have a free feat. If I go for TWD I will have the same AC, but 3 more tohit in defensive mode, and 3 more AC in offensive mode.
I prefer empower healing, as I would say that it is even better than 1 ac. If it is, the Exploiter falls behind even more.

My ranger also have 1 more str, so it could (depending on items and tomes etc) get even more DPS.
The exploiter have 2 more con, 20 hp. Not really that much if you ask me. Empower healing gives more survivabilty.

Is disable device and search really worth it? I hardly think so. Not with my playstyle anyways.
Oh, and concentration is really nice to have, even as a ranger.

Hadrian

03-22-2009, 04:33 PM

Well I have to say aspenor. I have done 50 GOP runs (in guild for a specific guild member to get the icy) and 80 subterrane runs( with about half guild members in the run) and no icy rainment. Do the darn things still exist or where they removed from the loot tables inquiring minds want to know..

I saw one drop in the Sub 4 or 5 days back.

5-600 SP wont be a problem to reach, and that gives quite alot of healing.

Yeah, SPs should be no problem. My ranger has 22 wisdom and just wizardry 6 and this gives him 409 SPs. I would theoretically cap at 559 for level 16 if I made the full SP shroud item.

By dumping int I have gotten 2 AC that the exploiter don't have (as human I will be able to get even stats to get the extra ACs points).

If you go human, you lose 1 to hit and AC due to size. Also, I thought that defensive fighting had a higher penalty to hit than 1-to-1.

Shyver

03-22-2009, 04:46 PM

Also, I thought that defensive fighting had a higher penalty to hit than 1-to-1.

It does.

Defensive Fighting: +2 AC, -4 to hit
Combat Expertise: +5 AC, -5 to hit

Robi3.0

03-22-2009, 04:46 PM

If you go human, you lose 1 to hit and AC due to size. Also, I thought that defensive fighting had a higher penalty to hit than 1-to-1.

I believe it is -4 to hit.

Also thanks for answering my question junts and borror0

Aspenor

03-22-2009, 04:46 PM

defensive fighting is -4 to hit for +2 ac.

edit: wow lol 3 people jumped on that

Aaxeyu

03-22-2009, 04:48 PM

It does.

Defensive Fighting: +2 AC, -4 to hit
Combat Expertise: +5 AC, -5 to hit

I believe it is -4 to hit.

Also thanks for answering my question junts and borror0

defensive fighting is -4 to hit for +2 ac.

Oh, I didn't know that. Thank you.

Aaxeyu

03-22-2009, 04:50 PM

If you go human, you lose 1 to hit and AC due to size.

The Exploiter is also human.
What I meant was that I can easily adapt to odd stats and tomes thanks to the human adaptability.

Borror0

03-22-2009, 06:15 PM

Cute little PM you sent me.

I refuse to waste my time with you therefore I am wrong? Very cute. :rolleyes:

By dumping int I have gotten 2 AC that the exploiter don't have (as human I will be able to get even stats to get the extra ACs points).
Only true you're assuming you have perfect gear (which includes two +3 tomes and the right enhancement on your DT robe), short from that, there is not difference at all.

Furthermore, you're not even considering all the sacrifices require to reach those few extra points. And, no, I don't have time to waste doing that for you.

Finally, the Exploiter has higher Con than yours. He could net an extra AC point that way.

I prefer empower healing, as I would say that it is even better than 1 ac.
Empower Healing does not cost you 1 AC but rather 3, as casting breaks Defensive Fighting.

Oh, and concentration is really nice to have, even as a ranger.
Not much I can do except raise an eyebrow to that one. Explaining why you are wrong on that would require me to explain you how most of the game works. I have better things to do of my time that are far more entertaining or rewarding.

PS: And, no, I am not "defending the US pride". I would think the reason to that is quite obvious.

Junts

03-22-2009, 06:18 PM

Cute little PM you sent me.

I refuse to waste my time with you therefore I am wrong? Very cute. :rolleyes:

Only true you're assuming you have perfect gear (which includes two +3 tomes and the right enhancement on your DT robe), short from that, there is not difference at all.

Furthermore, you're not even considering all the sacrifices require to reach those few extra points. And, no, I don't have time to waste doing that for you.

Finally, the Exploiter has higher Con than yours. He could net an extra AC point that way.

Empower Healing does not cost you 1 AC but rather 3, as casting breaks Defensive Fighting.

Not much I can do except raise an eyebrow to that one. Explaining why you are wrong on that would require me to explain you how most of the game works. I have better things to do of my time that are far more entertaining or rewarding.

PS: And, no, I am not "defending the US pride". I would think the reason to that is quite obvious.

the importance of concentration on a healing specced ranger build was discussed earlier, but you were too busy disliking the way he posts to really address that particular issue; the self healing aspect of this build is a big divergence from the exploiter and makes it quite a bit more useful soloing, imo.

Borror0

03-22-2009, 06:25 PM

the importance of concentration on a healing specced ranger build was discussed earlier
Of course I knew that already but since Exploiter does not heal through spell points that is irrelevant.

PS: My complaints are not about his posting style.

Gornn

03-22-2009, 06:25 PM

If the monk AC bonus is changed to require being centered, how will that affect your build Aax?

Gunga

03-22-2009, 06:44 PM

Hadrian

03-22-2009, 07:11 PM

the importance of concentration on a healing specced ranger build was discussed earlier, but you were too busy disliking the way he posts to really address that particular issue; the self healing aspect of this build is a big divergence from the exploiter and makes it quite a bit more useful soloing, imo.

I have not seen the discussion, but I wonder if you discussed the need for concentration on a build with high AC and evasion + high relfex. If you get hit very rarely, you have little need for concentration. I have recently started experimenting with self healing on my own ranger, though it was not part of the original plan for him, and I have not seen a failed concentration check despite having nothing trained.

My ranger is a 15/3ro/2mo plan that I built when mod 7 came out. I still plan to finish him that way.

MondoGrunday

03-22-2009, 07:21 PM

dang , at least my "gimp" build was my own :mad:

Aaxeyu

03-23-2009, 02:15 AM

Cute little PM you sent me.

I refuse to waste my time with you therefore I am wrong? Very cute. :rolleyes:

It got boring here without you. So had to do something about it!

Only true you're assuming you have perfect gear (which includes two +3 tomes and the right enhancement on your DT robe), short from that, there is not difference at all.

Furthermore, you're not even considering all the sacrifices require to reach those few extra points. And, no, I don't have time to waste doing that for you.

Finally, the Exploiter has higher Con than yours. He could net an extra AC point that way.

So I am wrong because I include 2 +3 tomes? You can do better than that. It is not exactly hard to get +3 tomes, and I figure it will be even easier in mod 9.

Yes, I did consider the sacrifices, perhaps you didn't read the post? I lost CE and DD, if you compare to the exploiter.

Well, he didn't. And he also have 1 less str.

Empower Healing does not cost you 1 AC but rather 3, as casting breaks Defensive Fighting.

That's in defensive mode, but I guess it's better to lose 3 AC than 5 AC (CE).

Not much I can do except raise an eyebrow to that one. Explaining why you are wrong on that would require me to explain you how most of the game works. I have better things to do of my time that are far more entertaining or rewarding.

PS: And, no, I am not "defending the US pride". I would think the reason to that is quite obvious.

I know perfectly well how the game works, and concentration can be a life saver.
Compare it to search, and see what's better.

You keep telling me that I am wrong, but you're so busy to tell me what I amwrong abut. I find that rather funny.
You are clearly overrating The Exploiter, and you're to stubborn and proud to admit it.

Aaxeyu

03-23-2009, 02:19 AM

This IS the Exploiter build. Modified.

Besides, I like the exploiter better. /shrug

So every ranger with rogue and monk splash (The obvious way to go) is modifications of The Exploiter?
lol.

Yea, my guess would be that you like the exploiter better as you are pretty dense and don't really know what you are talking about. Am I wrong?

Aaxeyu

03-23-2009, 02:21 AM

dang , at least my "gimp" build was my own :mad:

I haven't seen this build anywhere else, granted, there are not so many ways to build a ranger.

And this build is not exactly what you would call a gimp^^

Aaxeyu

03-23-2009, 02:26 AM

I have not seen the discussion, but I wonder if you discussed the need for concentration on a build with high AC and evasion + high relfex. If you get hit very rarely, you have little need for concentration. I have recently started experimenting with self healing on my own ranger, though it was not part of the original plan for him, and I have not seen a failed concentration check despite having nothing trained.

My ranger is a 15/3ro/2mo plan that I built when mod 7 came out. I still plan to finish him that way.

Here is some well put points about concentration:

Keep in mind that without quicken, though, you're gonna want some kind of concentration skill, as the concentration dc is 10 + spel level + damage suffered; even a 10 point archer plink will usually make you fail if you don't invest in concentration (or have quicken spell).

With emp healing, cmw and no concentration or quicken, imo, your healing is not an in-combat function so much as a between fights/let me run away around the corner and pop myself one so I don't fail it', much like how my sorceror uses heal scrolls (however, he has a 45 conc, so he can throw them on himself in the middle of trash if necessary). Its just not something you're gonna be able to reliably throw on yourself in the middle of 4 orthons and keep swinging.

What he says is true, the slightest damage would interupt my healing. When the **** hits the fan, you don't want to fail with your heals. And it's annoying to get interupted by archers etc.

FluffyCalico

03-23-2009, 02:28 AM

Yea, my guess would be that you like the exploiter better as you are pretty dense and don't really know what you are talking about. Am I wrong?

Ticking off gunga is like steping on a pile of flaming dog poo on your pourch. It's just a bad idea

Aaxeyu

03-23-2009, 02:37 AM

Ticking off gunga is like steping on a pile of flaming dog poo on your pourch. It's just a bad idea

Thanks for the heads up, but I will take my chances.

Hadrian

03-23-2009, 04:46 AM

Here is some well put points about concentration:

What he says is true, the slightest damage would interupt my healing. When the **** hits the fan, you don't want to fail with your heals. And it's annoying to get interupted by archers etc.

I guess there is no reason not to if you don't want any other skills, but I don't get interrupted. The casting time is fairly quick for cures, and something has to roll a 20 in that brief period.

Think of it this way - do you have trouble opening doors or chests with lots of stuff attacking you? If so, you probably need concentration. If not, probably not.

But again, if they're extra points I guess there is no reason not to.

baddax

03-23-2009, 05:27 AM

An excellent Ac can also be a good substitute for concentration,although not always. The same with a good reflex and evasion. 0 damage = 0 chance of being interrupted.

Borror0

03-23-2009, 10:26 AM

So I am wrong because I include 2 +3 tomes?
Oh, no, you don't get it. We're in the same situation than for the Monster build, again.

You're making a lot of assumptions. Most of which are pretty unrealistic.

Yes, I did consider the sacrifices, perhaps you didn't read the post? I lost CE and DD, if you compare to the exploiter.
Those were not the sacrifices I was referring to.

That's in defensive mode, but I guess it's better to lose 3 AC than 5 AC (CE).
Wrong comparison. You're going for self-healing over higher AC.

Therefore, you're loosing 3 AC while Exploiter is not.

I know perfectly well how the game works, and concentration can be a life saver.
Compare it to search, and see what's better.

Well, since that Exploiter does not cast CSW I would say that Concentration is a very minor gain to him.

Furthermore, since he got great AC and saves, the chances that he will actually need Concentration are rather low.

You are clearly overrating The Exploiter, and you're to stubborn and proud to admit it.
Wrong. I don't think the Exploiter is that much of a special build but he's better than your version.

BLAKROC

03-23-2009, 10:40 AM

I haven't seen this build anywhere else, granted, there are not so many ways to build a ranger.

And this build is not exactly what you would call a gimp^^

why isn't it gimp? after all the dps is much lower than your monster build ?

lol you have the most "situational" agruments i have ever seen.

and by that i mean if the situation favors you it's OK

if it doesn't the other build/person is gimp and mine is better.

honestly you should invest some time in logic coures ;)

and the build is MEH the name is not funny in anyway and i do thank you for editing it .

and taking emp healing and maxing concentration on a build that is dps focused you don't consider gimpy? (if you actually kill things fast enough you don't have to worry so much about healing yourserlf in the middle of things, unless you can't get a cleric to group with you )

you should really go back and read your post's on the force o personality one where you tore that dude up over his saves :eek:

pot this is the kettle a bit imo.

cheers

Aaxeyu

03-23-2009, 10:55 AM

Oh, no, you don't get it. We're in the same situation than for the Monster build, again.

You're making a lot of assumptions. Most of which are pretty unrealistic.

So now 2 +3 tomes is unrealistic? We both know that isn't true.

Those were not the sacrifices I was referring to.

Then what sacrifices are you refering too?

Wrong comparison. You're going for self-healing over higher AC.

Therefore, you're loosing 3 AC while Exploiter is not.

Well, since that Exploiter does not cast CSW I would say that Concentration is a very minor gain to him.

Wrong, I am going for better selfhealing, better AC in offensive mode (the mode that suits the game best tbh) over 1 AC in defensive mode.

If the Exploiter won't cast csw or use scrolls, he is gimping himself. CSW is a nice spell, and to ignore it is foolish.

If you don't really want trapskills, The Exploiter is simply a weaker build.

Furthermore, since he got great AC and saves, the chances that he will actually need Concentration are rather low.

Wrong. I don't think the Exploiter is that much of a special build but he's better than your version.

What if you need a quick heal in shroud part 4/5. or when elite orthons are hitting you. There are moments where concentration can be a life saver, and it's way better than search anyway.

Then you are overrating trapskills.

Aaxeyu

03-23-2009, 11:03 AM

why isn't it gimp? after all the dps is much lower than your monster build ?

Because it still have respectable DPS, and very high AC combined with selfhealing, evasion and high saves.

DPS is not everything, and I never claimed The Monster to be the best build around. Never.

lol you have the most "situational" agruments i have ever seen.

and by that i mean if the situation favors you it's OK

if it doesn't the other build/person is gimp and mine is better.

honestly you should invest some time in logic coures ;).

You don't really know what you are talking about.
The Monster is a completely different build, it sacrificed alot of self sufficiency for top notch DPS.
This build have good DPS, but not as high as the monster ofcourse, while having a more than respectable AC.

This build basicly have good dps, high AC, high saves, evasion and great self healing.
How is that gimped?

and the build is MEH the name is not funny in anyway and i do thank you for editing it .

and taking emp healing and maxing concentration on a build that is dps focused you don't consider gimpy? (if you actually kill things fast enough you don't have to worry so much about healing yourserlf in the middle of things, unless you can't get a cleric to group with you )

How is taking emp healing and maxing concentration lowering my DPS?

LOL, now suddenly selfhealing is gimpage? In the Monster threads most people complained about the lack of self healing.

you should really go back and read your post's on the force o personality one where you tore that dude up over his saves :eek:

pot this is the kettle a bit imo.

cheers

His build was gimped to oblivion. I don't see the connection here?

Borror0

03-23-2009, 11:04 AM

Then what sacrifices are you refering too?
Not going to bother answering that one. Figure out by yourself.

If the Exploiter won't cast csw or use scrolls, he is gimping himself. CSW is a nice spell, and to ignore it is foolish.
With that AC, Evasion and UMD, no.

The fact that you even try to present that as a good trade off is ridiculous.

Then you are overrating trapskills.
This has never been about trapsmithing! Ever!

If you look back in my history, you'll see that I think trapsmithing is near useless. The fact that you even read this is my post is hilarious.

juniorpfactors

03-23-2009, 11:04 AM

Well, it's the best ranger build I have seen.

Dunno what game you play in which trapskills are so useful.

your build is nothing more than a Batman build via monk, where is the tough thinking here???, heck my first every toon I built 3 years ago was a batman with EHealing with devotion paly necklace great healing power and lay on hands or heal scrolls, wow, its not brain surgery its just kinda like....whatever

jrp

Aaxeyu

03-23-2009, 11:12 AM

Not going to bother answering that one. Figure out by yourself.

Can anyone else show me the sacrifices then?

With that AC, Evasion and UMD, no.

The fact that you even try to present that as a good trade off is ridiculous. [/QUOTE]

How is his UMD gonna help him not to use scrolls?
You are really grasping for straws here.

Lol, you are clueless about his matter I see.
But even if CSW would be worthless you could take TWD.
Then what is better with the exploiter? 20 hp over 3 AC with PA?^^

This has never been about trapsmithing! Ever!

If you look back in my history, you'll see that I think trapsmithing is near useless. The fact that you even read this is my post is hilarious.

I guessed it was about traps, as that's the only thing the exploiter have that my ranger lacks.

Aaxeyu

03-23-2009, 11:13 AM

your build is nothing more than a Batman build via monk, where is the tough thinking here???, heck my first every toon I built 3 years ago was a batman with EHealing with devotion paly necklace great healing power and lay on hands or heal scrolls, wow, its not brain surgery its just kinda like....whatever

jrp

Huh?
What's your point?

Is it a bad build because it's obvious?

Borror0

03-23-2009, 11:19 AM

How is his UMD gonna help him not to use scrolls?
What you should have raid was "His AC and Evasion is going to help him not to use scrolls and in the rare chances he needs self-healing, well he has UMD."

Surprisingly, you did not get it.

But even if CSW would be worthless you could take TWD.
Then what is better with the exploiter? 20 hp over 3 AC with PA?^^
I already addressed this point. Short memory.

I guessed it was about traps, as that's the only thing the exploiter have that my ranger lacks.
Well, perhaps you ought to listen when I mentioned it was not about traps in he past?

Short memory, I guess.

Turial

03-23-2009, 11:23 AM

A decent ranger/monk build.

Similar in potential survivability to the exploiter, Illum's tempest ranger, and my balance ranger. Good but the name is not the best choice.

If you label you build "god" it needs a bit more oomph then decent DPS and self-healing.

Aaxeyu

03-23-2009, 11:24 AM

juniorpfactors

03-23-2009, 11:27 AM

Huh?
What's your point?

Is it a bad build because it's obvious?

nope its usable, but then again most AC toons would be wanting CE, and casting anything breaks CE, really big pain in the butt, my other comment would be .... +6 dex boots would be about the last place on earth to put dex, you are gonna be the slowest gimp runner alive, and if you wanta heal that great, you gotta work in Hound bracers or the +20% on your DT armour in My opinion, those are some tweaks worth looking at, I probably would look at forgetting umd and rework the gear towards more SP, really the best healing melee is a Lay on Hands its instantaneous and mine hit for 280+, can you get quicken in there, that would be interesting and much more Combat realistic

jrp

BLAKROC

03-23-2009, 11:28 AM

Because it still have respectable DPS, and very high AC combined with selfhealing, evasion and high saves.

DPS is not everything, and I never claimed The Monster to be the best build around. Never.

You don't really know what you are talking about.
The Monster is a completely different build, it sacrificed alot of self sufficiency for top notch DPS.
This build have good DPS, but not as high as the monster ofcourse, while having a more than respectable AC.

This build basicly have good dps, high AC, high saves, evasion and great self healing.
How is that gimped?

How is taking emp healing and maxing concentration lowering my DPS?

LOL, now suddenly selfhealing is gimpage? In the Monster threads most people complained about the lack of self healing.

His build was gimped to oblivion. I don't see the connection here?

i never called your ranger gimped i called it MEH
when your worried about self healing then obviosly your not focused on combat so your dps goes down further.
and wasting a feat on emp healing on a ranger build is questionable imo and so is investing in concentraton to that extent. with your low starting int skill points are very low and spread out, think about it
and finally yes his saves were overkill, gimped to oblivion?
only in ur opinion,
you obviouslly will make any statement you can to justify you position on a topic. instead you should be able to look at the big picture and focus on the strenghs vs weakensses of any build. then you can make adjustments to shore stuff up and still have a vialbe build that is fun to play.
lots of room in this game.
it's just that your word choices make it come across like if it's not your build it's trash/gimped showing no respect for others.
take it for what you will

Aaxeyu

03-23-2009, 11:32 AM

What you should have raid was "His AC and Evasion is going to help him not to use scrolls and in the rare chances he needs self-healing, well he has UMD."

Surprisingly, you did not get it.

Okay, but I don't agree.
Selfhealing is always nice to have, especially in rangers case, as they can get very good self healing very easily.

I already addressed this point. Short memory.

You adressed it by saying that my rangers have done some mysterious sacrifices that are to long to write down, iirc.

Well, perhaps you ought to listen when I mentioned it was not about traps in he past?

Short memory, I guess.

The thing is, the exploiter got nothing else to offer. So I guessed that it was traps. What else could it be?

juniorpfactors

03-23-2009, 11:34 AM

Borror0

03-23-2009, 11:40 AM

Selfhealing is always nice to have, especially in rangers case, as they can get very good self healing very easily.
More SP is always nice to have but I think we'll agree that Mental Toughness is a waste on a sorcerer.

You adressed it by saying that my rangers have done some mysterious sacrifices that are to long to write down, iirc.
Wrong post. I was referring to your gear set up.

Aaxeyu

03-23-2009, 11:42 AM

nope its usable, but then again most AC toons would be wanting CE, and casting anything breaks CE, really big pain in the butt, my other comment would be .... +6 dex boots would be about the last place on earth to put dex, you are gonna be the slowest gimp runner alive, and if you wanta heal that great, you gotta work in Hound bracers or the +20% on your DT armour in My opinion, those are some tweaks worth looking at, I probably would look at forgetting umd and rework the gear towards more SP, really the best healing melee is a Lay on Hands its instantaneous and mine hit for 280+, can you get quicken in there, that would be interesting and much more Combat realistic

jrp

Most people don't realise that CE isn't as good as you think.
Especaily not for rangers as they don't need more skillpoints anyways.

I can go through it again:
CE is 3 ac over defensive fighting.
CE costs 4(or 3) build points, which can be used to bump AC by 2.
Then it's only 1 AC difference, and the non-CE build gets 2 higher AC with PA, and as DPS actually is king in DDO you will want to use PA as much as possible (your AC will still be high, especially if you skip CE).
And the non-ce ranger gets a feat. I chose empower healing as I it bumps the selfsufficiency up to a very high level. You could ofcourse take TWD and reach the same AC as the CE build, and have 3 AC higher with PA.

Are you saying that you use striding items to boost your runspeed?

Yes, LoH is very nice, but also very limited. you only get 4 uses at best.
Quicken is not worth the feat, it wouldn't even be worth the SP.

tc12

03-23-2009, 11:49 AM

Wow, I read way too much of this thread. I want 15 minutes of my life back. Nothing to see here folks, move along.

Borror0

03-23-2009, 11:51 AM

CE costs 4(or 3) build points, which can be used to bump AC by 2.
Poor analysis. Since Exploiter has lower Str, this only allows you 1 more AC. Not 2.

Aaxeyu

03-23-2009, 11:52 AM

when your worried about self healing then obviosly your not focused on combat so your dps goes down further.

That doesn't even make any sense.

and wasting a feat on emp healing on a ranger build is questionable imo and so is investing in concentraton to that extent. with your low starting int skill points are very low and spread out, think about it

Very low skillpoints on a human ranger? Get a clue please....

I have more then enough skillpoints to take concentration, what else would I take?

I don't agree that it is wasting a feat, as it gives quite alot. It's alot better than CE anyways.

and finally yes his saves were overkill, gimped to oblivion?
only in ur opinion,

No, it's not an opinion, it's a fact.
I am really starting to doubt that you have much knowledge of the game.

you obviouslly will make any statement you can to justify you position on a topic. instead you should be able to look at the big picture and focus on the strenghs vs weakensses of any build. then you can make adjustments to shore stuff up and still have a vialbe build that is fun to play.
lots of room in this game.

No, I won't.
I wont be pulling stuff out of the blue to defend or bash a build.
Lots of people on these forums do that actually, but I tend to keep to stats and facts where it is possible.

it's just that your word choices make it come across like if it's not your build it's trash/gimped showing no respect for others.
take it for what you will

Yes, I don't show much respect for noobs who defends their obviously gimped builds.
I guess I'm a bad person.

Aaxeyu

03-23-2009, 11:56 AM

I think you could rework your gear setup to be more efficient, maybe hound necklace, put con 6 on your DT, and get hound bracers +6 str, superior/greater Dev ring, and more effecient crafting on your 2 shroud items, cloak and gloves, hound +6dex ring 2 to hit.

jrp

And lose 2-3 AC?

Not worth it, I will rather swap to devotion item when needed.

The item set up is probably not perfect thou, I only made it quick.
Items can always be changed so it's not that important to plan them perfectly before you are even capped.

Thanks anyways thou:)

Aaxeyu

03-23-2009, 11:59 AM

More SP is always nice to have but I think we'll agree that Mental Toughness is a waste on a sorcerer.

lol, strawman?

If mental toughness gave +50% damage, then it would be nice to have.

Wrong post. I was referring to your gear set up.

What about my gear set up?
I can have the same items as the exploiter really.

Poor analysis. Since Exploiter has lower Str, this only allows you 1 more AC. Not 2.

I wasn't talking about the exploiter, I was talking about the buildpoints that is required for CE.

And in the exploiters case, he have more con too, so he is still 2 AC behind from stats.

Borror0

03-23-2009, 12:07 PM

lol, strawman?
You need to re-read the definition of straw man. If you want to say what I said is a fallacy, then False Analogy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_analogy) would be better.

But then, you'd have to prove me that it's really one.

I can have the same items as the exploiter really.
Irrelevant since you don't need the same items as he does to reach higher AC.

And in the exploiters case, he have more con too, so he is still 2 AC behind from stats.
Sigh...

Your method of argumentation is extremely irritating. Rather than addressing arguments, you toss red herrings left and right. For one to debate with you, he has to bring you back on topic on and on and on or explain you his arguments, again and again.

maddmatt70

03-23-2009, 12:12 PM

I honestly don't see alot of difference between your build and the exploiter they really are basically the same build just a little different stat distribution and skill point usage. For some reason people don't like your posting style and feel they should take shots at you. Shrug, interestingly enough alot of these people have some weaksauce posting styles themselvesl.. The God thing is a little over the top though.

gfunk

03-23-2009, 12:13 PM

I like melee's which take advantage of both devotion and healing amp enhancements for self healing. I find them very self sufficient

UMD is nice, but having to switch to a scroll in one hand really disrupts combat. I have 3 melees which heal themselves by different methods:

1)I like my rangers ability to self cast CSW with barely missing a beat, though I wish it hit for more points (I often use the gauntlets of eternity to help that out and sometimes get 100ish point CSW's).
2) My fighter just hits a CSW pot (which do up to 61 points with ~220% healing amp)
3) My rogue UMD's heal scrolls, but I find this to be the most disruptive of the self healing methods due to the neccessity to switch to a scroll from a weapon (I hate punching mobs with scolls)

On a side note, I wanted to figure out a build that could have max amp (319%, would have to have at least 11 lvls of monk and be human), and also had cure spells with devotion enhancements. Of course, 11 monk only leaves 9 lvls for ranger or pali (if not considering cleric), so you would be restricted to CLW and devotion III. Still, cure light wounds would hit for and average of 90 points with this build (with sup potency), but the dps would be relatively awful. It seems its better just to go human and ranger/pali and forget monk healing enhancement but I would like to see a build that made it work well.

Aaxeyu

03-23-2009, 12:15 PM

You need to re-read the definition of straw man. If you want to say what I said is a fallacy, then False Analogy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_analogy) would be better.

okay, yea I don't know exactly when to call strawman, but I know that you do it alot on stuff like that.

Mental toughness for sorcs is a whole different matter, and I think you know that.

Irrelevant since you don't need the same items as he does to reach higher AC.

No, but items are pretty irrelevant as it is, dunno why you brought it up in the first place.

Sigh...

Your method of argumentation is extremely irritating. Rather than addressing arguments, you toss red herrings left and right.

Dunno what red herring is tbh.
I dunno what was so wrong with what you quoted?
You are losing this argument, and I think that is why you get irritated.

Can't you just write why the exploiter is a better build, intead of saing that it's because of a reason that you wont tell.

maddmatt70

03-23-2009, 12:19 PM

Aaxeyu

03-23-2009, 12:21 PM

Borror0

03-23-2009, 12:28 PM

Mental toughness for sorcs is a whole different matter, and I think you know that.
Not really. I think that in both case that's overkill.

No, but items are pretty irrelevant as it is, dunno why you brought it up in the first place.
You need specific items that Exploiter does not need, to gain from your odd stats.

Can't you just write why the exploiter is a better build, intead of saing that it's because of a reason that you wont tell.
I told you why. The Exploiter build uses his strengths to make his trade offs worth it.

You don't.

Borror0

03-23-2009, 12:32 PM

You could make a ranger/monk high ac human and be pretty indestructible.
What's the point of making an indestructible ball with crappy DPS and no Intimidate?

Aaxeyu

03-23-2009, 12:45 PM

Not really. I think that in both case that's overkill.

MT gives only a few % to the Sorcs SP while EH gives more than (healing amp makes it even better) 50% more healing to the rangers CSW.

You need specific items that Exploiter does not need, to gain from your odd stats.

Yes, how is that bad?
A higher potential usualy equals better in my book..

You could also look at it this way, my ranger takes more advantage of specific items.

I told you why. The Exploiter build uses his strengths to make his trade offs worth it.

You don't.

The Exploiter is a weaker build, it have 2 less Ac with PA, and only 1 AC higher with CE/DF.
Every sane and experienced player should know that having 2 AC higher with PA is alot better than 1 ac higher with CE/DF when the AC with PA is still high as PA is the prefered mode. If you kill something faster, you get hit less.

That leaves 1 feat for my ranger; you totaly reject EH and concentration. But taking TWD would also be a good choice, as it would bring my ranger to the same AC as the exploiter with CE/DF and the difference between my ranger with PA and The Exploiter in CE would only be 2 AC.
If you think that 2 AC would be worth 5 damage in both hands I suggest you go dex based to complete the selfgimpage.

Aaxeyu

03-23-2009, 12:45 PM

What's the point of making an indestructible ball with crappy DPS and no Intimidate?

lol, we actually agree on something^^

Junts

03-23-2009, 12:52 PM

I don't get it, Borr, are you panning this build, healing rangers in general, or just aaxeyu in general?

While you can quibble on some of the stat distributions, honestly, true self-healing is probably a bigger addition to an endgame ranger build, all else being equal, than trap skills: that part of the 'exploiter' build is almost never relevant, and a lot of people I know making them -are not even bothering to make their character trap capable- .. I took 3 14/1/1s to vod yesterday only to find we -still- needed a rogue :P

Aax, I do think you downplay the usefulness of combat expertise: PA is something you use almost universally on red/purple named, whereas CE is for basically everything else. Trash mobs frequently do more damage to the party (or more dangerous damage) than red/purple mobs do, because clerics are on dedicated heal duty during those periods that you actually fight them. I have both PA and CE on my tank, and I use CE far more often, since PA is for vod orthons, shroud 2, shroud 4, shroud 5, and suulomades if I'm not tanking .. and Xyzzy at the end of hound. I can honestly say I almost -never- have pa enabled at any other time, but I have CE on almost constantly, and only drop it in a few situations where to-hit is very helpful and ac is irrelevant (beholders, fire portion of sos) where I use neither to maintain the to-hit.

I know you have some builds capable of dpsing trash, but no one on the american servers is doing it: trash are for wops and vorpals, and people using their greensteel on non-red/purple mobs are yelled at. So PA is not so frequently enabled as you make it out to be.

kingfisher

03-23-2009, 01:02 PM

someone stop this thread now before it goes any further. watching this guy backpeddle all the way to Eurego is fun and all, but its just a waste of time.

Aaxeyu

03-23-2009, 01:05 PM

I don't get it, Borr, are you panning this build, healing rangers in general, or just aaxeyu in general?

I would bet that it's just me in general.
He is trying to defend his place as the forum guru, but he have gone way too far.

Aax, I do think you downplay the usefulness of combat expertise: PA is something you use almost universally on red/purple named, whereas CE is for basically everything else. Trash mobs frequently do more damage to the party (or more dangerous damage) than red/purple mobs do, because clerics are on dedicated heal duty during those periods that you actually fight them. I have both PA and CE on my tank, and I use CE far more often, since PA is for vod orthons, shroud 2, shroud 4, shroud 5, and suulomades if I'm not tanking .. and Xyzzy at the end of hound. I can honestly say I almost -never- have pa enabled at any other time, but I have CE on almost constantly, and only drop it in a few situations where to-hit is very helpful and ac is irrelevant (beholders, fire portion of sos) where I use neither to maintain the to-hit.

I know you have some builds capable of dpsing trash, but no one on the american servers is doing it: trash are for wops and vorpals, and people using their greensteel on non-red/purple mobs are yelled at. So PA is not so frequently enabled as you make it out to be.

You have to remember that CE is not 5 AC, its 1 AC (for this build).

The only place I use WoP is the giants in sos/prey and devils in shroud/vod. And the tough reavers mobs in hound.

I guess we do it differently on the EU servers.

Junts

03-23-2009, 01:12 PM

I would bet that it's just me in general.
He is trying to defend his place as the forum guru, but he have gone way too far.

You have to remember that CE is not 5 AC, its 1 AC (for this build).

The only place I use WoP is the giants in sos/prey and devils in shroud.

I guess we do it differently on the EU servers.

Generally find subterrane mobs + hound mobs to be significantly faster with wop as well, especially on hard/elite. vod devils its more a vorpal v wop thing, but both of those are better off w/ ce

you could improve ac marginally in the long-term by starting 10 int, waiting for the +3 tome and then working in ce (you already have use of defensive fighting involved, and the pen for df is almost the same as ce, only the benefit for ce is much bigger) - that probably costs you a dex bracket (going back to 15 dex is what I'd do, as that probably just costs you some ap) but in the longer-term it lets you build a higher-ac character.

Aaxeyu

03-23-2009, 01:16 PM

Generally find subterrane mobs + hound mobs to be significantly faster with wop as well, especially on hard/elite. vod devils its more a vorpal v wop thing, but both of those are better off w/ ce

you could improve ac marginally in the long-term by starting 10 int, waiting for the +3 tome and then working in ce (you already have use of defensive fighting involved, and the pen for df is almost the same as ce, only the benefit for ce is much bigger) - that probably costs you a dex bracket (going back to 15 dex is what I'd do, as that probably just costs you some ap) but in the longer-term it lets you build a higher-ac character.

heh, forgot those raids.

Well, I prefer empowerhealing to that 1 AC.
And losing a dex can hurt my PA AC, which I value more.

Junts

03-23-2009, 01:19 PM

correct me if I'm wrong, but like most class stat enhancements, couldn't you simply take ranger dex 3 and have the same dex?

edit: this is where I forget tempest III feat pre-req's.

Aaxeyu

03-23-2009, 01:21 PM

correct me if I'm wrong, but like most class stat enhancements, couldn't you simply take ranger dex 3 and have the same dex?

also, otwf is the feat I'd drop for ce, not e-healing, your to-hit should be just fine with that str/rams/tharnes flanking/etc

finding the 6 ap is harder, but honestly, if you had a 6 ap enhancement for 'you now have combat expertise' you'd have worked it in for sure.

You need otwf for tempest III, so can't drop that.

Finding 6 APs would be really hard actually.

Borror0

03-23-2009, 01:51 PM

While you can quibble on some of the stat distributions, honestly, true self-healing is probably a bigger addition to an endgame ranger build, all else being equal, than trap skills: that part of the 'exploiter' build is almost never relevant, and a lot of people I know making them -are not even bothering to make their character trap capable- .. I took 3 14/1/1s to vod yesterday only to find we -still- needed a rogue :P
This never was about trapsmithing, Junts. If you read that, at any point, then you misread the post.

As you said, Sickness downplays CE. But also, self-healing on a high AC character with Evasion is overkill, especially considering that the character has UMD if self-healing ever becomes critical. Unless the character was build for solo play, so much self-healing is far from required.

As for other Sickness' builds, it's not a bad build and obviously, I would have not cared so much about his builds if it was not for Sickness' attitude.

For his "Monster" build, it was the ridiculous claim that it was the "highest DPS build". For this build, it's both presenting this build as if it was both original and somehow clearly superior to anything we had seen. Seriously, how can some post a build named "The God" when the build is clearly not worth the name?

Anyway, combine th previous to poor reasoning and assumptions and it was enough to get me going for several pages.

Junts

03-23-2009, 02:27 PM

This never was about trapsmithing, Junts. If you read that, at any point, then you misread the post.

As you said, Sickness downplays CE. But also, self-healing on a high AC character with Evasion is overkill, especially considering that the character has UMD if self-healing ever becomes critical. Unless the character was build for solo play, so much self-healing is far from required.

As for other Sickness' builds, it's not a bad build and obviously, I would have not cared so much about his builds if it was not for Sickness' attitude.

For his "Monster" build, it was the ridiculous claim that it was the "highest DPS build". For this build, it's both presenting this build as if it was both original and somehow clearly superior to anything we had seen. Seriously, how can some post a build named "The God" when the build is clearly not worth the name?

Anyway, combine th previous to poor reasoning and assumptions and it was enough to get me going for several pages.

I guess I just disagree on the self-healing issue; my paladin has 4 253 point lay hands, unyielding sovereignty and, if he wants, a 37 umd: and I'm stll considering using my lv 18 feat + my healing amp to work in cast selfhealing, because its really, really nice to be 100% independent of the cleric without a bunch of equipment swapping and the long, slow cast time/debuff vulnerability of umd

if you've died, or are in a quest with buff stripping (dispel, beholders, mord's dj coming up), umd selfhealing isn't very effective because almost no one but a cha-based bard has the umd to no-fail heal scrolls without any buffs!

a ranger, lacking the 1500 hp worth of instant healing my paladin's toting (along with a 70+ ac of his own) benefits all the more from that self-healing ability - the ac/pierce specced nature of the build already means it can go where it pleases and do whatever's necessary, and actual in-combat functional self-healing is a tremendous benefit: he can be off by himself killing flayers and beholders in hound elite, he can be off by himself doing a rune without any accompaniment in the sos fire section, he can go do the vod puzzle by himself without having 9-10 other people around making it harder (and its universally easier with no more than 2 people to manage the aggro situation), and I could just go on and on. Torthur has another healing ranger build in this forum, and it's also very effective without having the ac that this one does. Hell, I'd go so far as to say that given the shield wand change and his healing ability, the best variant here might just drop the rogue level entirely and take a 2nd monk level, which would give him the feats to have ce and empower healing; that level of self-healing really does make the umd a redundance/emergency/raise dead sort of thing, as he's highly unlikely with appropriate eq (torq, conc opp, abbot gloves, etc) to run out of sp enough to need heal scrolls on himself.

As for the two of you, I think you have a communication issue: you don't even necessarily disagree that much, you strongly dislike how the other posts and how they say what they're saying. Particularly given that it's clear that English isn't his first language, and your own occaisional asking if you've misworded things yourself (are you a native french speaker? I've gotten that impression, but I could be wrong), I'd go so far as to suggest that both of you being offended by the other's manner of speaking isn't particularly productive and probably has a lot to do with the fact that he, in the very least, is communicating in his second language and seems prone to overstatements and exaggerations that come across as hyperbolic, excessive and silly.

Borror0

03-23-2009, 02:33 PM

This is going to be my last reply to you, in this thread.

While you are not an horrible builder, your close-mindedness and your unwillingness to understand any objection tossed in your direction makes replying to you an utter waste of time. Often, your position is so wrong that explaining to you would be far too time-consuming to explain (since they are incorrect statements about obvious truths that should be experimented during normal gameplay).

The rest of the time, you respond to arguments that are not there or go off on a tangent on a minor point, as if it'd invalidate the bigger arguments.

Thus, arguing with you is nothing but a waste of time. I could bring you the same points on and on and we would never progress. Clearly, all that I achieved by posting in this thread is wasting time. It's clear now that the only way to win is not to play (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHWjlCaIrQo).

MT gives only a few % to the Sorcs SP while EH gives more than (healing amp makes it even better) 50% more healing to the rangers CSW.
While that's not false, you're replying to a point I never made (here I could say straw man but since it was not intentional it would be very disingenuous for me to do so - I'm only mentioning it since you mentioned you never really know when a faulty argument can be called a straw man) and is a perfect example of how you always seem to miss the point of arguments raised against you.

Mental Toughness is a bad feat for a sorcerer because a sorcerer get very little from it. Likewise, self-healing (and Concentration) on an Exploiter build is not worth it because there is very little gain out of it.

You could also look at it this way, my ranger takes more advantage of specific items.
That does not make one more powerful. Monks gain more out of handwraps and kama than other builds. Monks are still gimped, though.

Since you missed the point, I will state it again: you require more specific bonuses than the Exploiter to reach more 1 AC than him. And that's based on the assumption that he does not want to lower his Con to 12. In case he would lower his Con to 12 (like you), the Exploiter is on par with you.

That's if you are wearing the IR. Otherwise, you are at lower AC anyway (see bellow).

The Exploiter is a weaker build, it have 2 less Ac with PA, and only 1 AC higher with CE/DF.
Quoted to prove the lack of progression in the conversation.

But, just to entertain you, the Exploiter build has +4 AC than you with CE with his listed gear vs you with your listed gear. Only +3 if you switch to Two-Weapon Defense. He's 1 more AC with PA on, or equal if you switch to TWD for one more AC (but he'll still have higher AC than you).

Exploiter can also gain 1 AC from lower Con.

BLAKROC

03-23-2009, 03:11 PM

This is going to be my last reply to you, in this thread.

While you are not an horrible builder, your close-mindedness and your unwillingness to understand any objection tossed in your direction makes replying to you an utter waste of time. Often, your position is so wrong that explaining to you would be far too time-consuming to explain (since they are incorrect statements about obvious truths that should be experimented during normal gameplay).

The rest of the time, you respond to arguments that are not there or go off on a tangent on a minor point, as if it'd invalidate the bigger arguments.

Thus, arguing with you is nothing but a waste of time. I could bring you the same points on and on and we would never progress. Clearly, all that I achieved by posting in this thread is wasting time. It's clear now that the only way to win is not to play (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHWjlCaIrQo).

While that's not false, you're replying to a point I never made (here I could say straw man but since it was not intentional it would be very disingenuous for me to do so - I'm only mentioning it since you mentioned you never really know when a faulty argument can be called a straw man) and is a perfect example of how you always seem to miss the point of arguments raised against you.

Mental Toughness is a bad feat for a sorcerer because a sorcerer get very little from it. Likewise, self-healing (and Concentration) on an Exploiter build is not worth it because there is very little gain out of it.

That does not make one more powerful. Monks gain more out of handwraps and kama than other builds. Monks are still gimped, though.

Since you missed the point, I will state it again: you require more specific bonuses than the Exploiter to reach more 1 AC than him. And that's based on the assumption that he does not want to lower his Con to 12. In case he would lower his Con to 12 (like you), the Exploiter is on par with you.

That's if you are wearing the IR. Otherwise, you are at lower AC anyway (see bellow).

Quoted to prove the lack of progression in the conversation.

But, just to entertain you, the Exploiter build has +4 AC than you with CE with his listed gear vs you with your listed gear. Only +3 if you switch to Two-Weapon Defense. He's 1 more AC with PA on, or equal if you switch to TWD for one more AC (but he'll still have higher AC than you).

Exploiter can also gain 1 AC from lower Con.

/signed and utter watse of time as it's only his opiion that matters to the bitter end.
lol i guess that what forum squeltch is for so no more having to read his innane drivel
too bad other forum goers will

Borror0

03-23-2009, 03:33 PM

Aaxeyu

03-23-2009, 03:40 PM

While you are not an horrible builder, your close-mindedness and your unwillingness to understand any objection tossed in your direction makes replying to you an utter waste of time. Often, your position is so wrong that explaining to you would be far too time-consuming to explain (since they are incorrect statements about obvious truths that should be experimented during normal gameplay).

I would say the same about you actually, you have been wrong in this thread all along.
You started by saying that it was a weaker version of The Exploiter, but I have shown you time and time again that it is not weaker.

When I asked you for arguments to why the exploiter is a stronger build, you replied:

If you say this, then it means I would waste keystrokes explaining you why.

Sigh.. and you complain about my attitude.
This is basicly saying that it is better because I don't like you.
You didn't provide any arguments until I sent you the PM (It worked^^).

The rest of the time, you respond to arguments that are not there or go off on a tangent on a minor point, as if it'd invalidate the bigger arguments.

Thus, arguing with you is nothing but a waste of time. I could bring you the same points on and on and we would never progress. Clearly, all that I achieved by posting in this thread is wasting time. It's clear now that the only way to win is not to play (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHWjlCaIrQo).

I respond to the arguments that I see there, if you are not clear enough.. Well I'm sorry..

While that's not false, you're replying to a point I never made (here I could say straw man but since it was not intentional it would be very disingenuous for me to do so - I'm only mentioning it since you mentioned you never really know when a faulty argument can be called a straw man) and is a perfect example of how you always seem to miss the point of arguments raised against you.

Mental Toughness is a bad feat for a sorcerer because a sorcerer get very little from it. Likewise, self-healing (and Concentration) on an Exploiter build is not worth it because there is very little gain out of it.

That is a bad comparison as a ranger gains more from EH than a sorc do from MT. Also, sorcs lack feats, and wasting one on MT is quite costy.

I really disagree about the selfhealing for ranger, and I believe that you don't really know what you are talking about..
Maybe too much time on the forums, and not so much in game?

That does not make one more powerful. Monks gain more out of handwraps and kama than other builds. Monks are still gimped, though.

Since you missed the point, I will state it again: you require more specific bonuses than the Exploiter to reach more 1 AC than him. And that's based on the assumption that he does not want to lower his Con to 12. In case he would lower his Con to 12 (like you), the Exploiter is on par with you.

That's if you are wearing the IR. Otherwise, you are at lower AC anyway (see bellow).

Well, then I could drop str to 15 as the exploiter and net one AC.

Quoted to prove the lack of progression in the conversation.

But, just to entertain you, the Exploiter build has +4 AC than you with CE with his listed gear vs you with your listed gear. Only +3 if you switch to Two-Weapon Defense. He's 1 more AC with PA on, or equal if you switch to TWD for one more AC (but he'll still have higher AC than you).

Exploiter can also gain 1 AC from lower Con.

So this is your secret, the equipment that is listed.
I hope you realise that items doesn't make a build, and that my ranger an the exploiter can use the same items.

Sure, I would lose the extra wis AC for now, but having it as an option is still better than wasting the skillpoints in int.

The DT armors gives some really nice bonuses and they are in many cases better than the extra AC.

I got one question for you Borror0, I know you said that you won't reply to me in this thread any more (hence i didn't put much effort in this post), but please, one question.
Do you believe that it is worth getting CE on this kind of ranger?

Borror0

03-23-2009, 03:52 PM

I hope you realise that items doesn't make a build, and that my ranger an the exploiter can use the same items.
With the same gear, Exploiter has more AC which as the point I was making.

Do you believe that it is worth getting CE on this kind of ranger?
Yes.

Aaxeyu

03-23-2009, 04:01 PM

I have been asked to post what I meant by "the Exploiter benefiting more from its sacrifices than this build" by someone I respect enough to do him this favor. Furthermore, others may gain from it, so why not?

This build is non-synergistic. He has lower DPS than he could... and for what? Why human? Why not max Str?

Human for the extra feat and not max str because that is a waste of potential for a ranger.
The dps difference is slim, only a few dps. But the AC difference is quite huge.

A ranger with max str is gimped, it's a failed dps build.
Rangers lack dps compared to fighters and even barbs iirc.

If you are going to build a ranger, why not make the most out the class?
You can get great AC, great self healing while having good dps. Not as good as real dps builds, but they have much lower AC and often no self healing. (Not true for rogues).

If one is going to make those sacrifices, Exploiter has better or equal AC (depending on if he is in defensive mode or not) - never worse - for no and very little DPS loss (most likely none). Sickness' comments are true only if and only if the Exploiter is stupidly geared (ie not wearing the that he should) and that "God" has everything he needs. Otherwise, the Exploiter is ahead (double true if "God" does not have the two +3 tome that he needs to beat the Exploiter).

Furthermore, Exploiter has Intimidate (which "God" does not) thus exploiting the higher AC and DPS loss far better than "God".

With icy raiment and some +3 tomes this is how it goes:

The main difference is CE.
I have been saying that CE is not as good as you make it out to be.
A ranger only get 1 more AC from taking CE, as it costs him 3-4 build points which could be used in dex or wis.
It also costs a feat, and if you really want more AC you can take TWD. That brings the AC difference down to 0 AC, while the ac difference in PA is 3 in favor for the non-CE ranger.

Do you honestly believe that CE is worth it for rangers?

I chose optimized the stats with DT outfit in mind, as it's imo better than icy, even for the exploiter.
So the above is not true for my ranger, but it wouldn't require much to change that, just drop str to 15, take 16 wis and scarmble 6 APs from somewhere and take the last ranger dex. and put a human adapt in str.

While "God" can self-heal, it's pretty much overkill given that he has high AC and Evasion. I mean, if he really needs to self-heal and that no cleric can get him (quite unlikely given the AC/Evasion) than he can UMD himself back up and go back to fight. In other words, the trade offs for the healing are just not worth it.

The trapsmithing are really just extra but still very nice to have if we see more Vision-like raids.

Again you underestimate CSW as selfhealing. You are missleading readers.

PS. you are the only one calling it "god". If it's so offensive, perhaps you should stop.

Aaxeyu

03-23-2009, 04:03 PM

/signed and utter watse of time as it's only his opiion that matters to the bitter end.
lol i guess that what forum squeltch is for so no more having to read his innane drivel
too bad other forum goers will

Ever considered that I might actually be correct?
Just because you don't like me doesn't mean I'm wrong.

kingfisher

03-23-2009, 04:06 PM

Ever considered that I might actually be correct?
Just because you don't like me doesn't mean I'm wrong.

umm yeah, the first time you tried this, but you were wrong then and a million post later were still harping for your build while comparing your build under one set of standards while the build you were trying to top under another, stricter set of standards. so no, not really.

Aaxeyu

03-23-2009, 04:20 PM

umm yeah, the first time you tried this, but you were wrong then and a million post later were still harping for your build while comparing your build under one set of standards while the build you were trying to top under another, stricter set of standards. so no, not really.

When I was proved wrong I admited it on spot, I don't have any problems with that.

I never claimed the monster to have highest DPS after someone showed me a build that actually had higher dps.

Borror0

03-23-2009, 04:23 PM

Human for the extra feat and not max str because that is a waste of potential for a ranger.
The build has an extra useless feat, thus human is a poor race choice. WF or Halfling would be better choices.

Not having maximum Str is a bad choice since the build does not plan on taking advantage of the extra survivability gained. Unless one of the set goals of the build was soloing (in which case it would be a good build for that purpose) the trade off are clearly not worth it.

This is further true when remembering Heall, Mass will be a stable in Module 9.

Aaxeyu

03-23-2009, 04:30 PM

The build has an extra useless feat, thus human is a poor race choice. WF or Halfling would be better choices.

Not having maximum Str is a bad choice since the build does not plan on taking advantage of the extra survivability gained. Unless one of the set goals of the build was soloing (in which case it would be a good build for that purpose) the trade off are clearly not worth it.

This is further true when remembering Heall, Mass will be a stable in Module 9.

Useless in your eyes.

And yes, soloing was one of the things this build was planned for, soloing or lowmaning while not beeing a SPsponge.
That is where rangers shine actually.
Making a DPS only-ranger is not very bright. Lower dps than fighter builds, so what's the point?

Not planning to take full advantage of the AC it perhaps, but following your logic only intmitanks only get hit.
If that were true my monster would never lose HP.

maddmatt70

03-23-2009, 04:30 PM

What's the point of making an indestructible ball with crappy DPS and no Intimidate?

6 ranger + air stance is not horrible dps by any means. As I have pointed out in many threads intimidate is not nearly as useful as you put forth. I don't use intimidate, the people I run with don't use intimidate, and look we only can easily beat any raid quest on any difficulty and can measure up to any group in ddo. The one thing that is necessary in ddo is dps. We as a group believe in that through and through. Oh and damage mitigation through spells i.e. buffage doesn't hurt any...

Aaxeyu

03-23-2009, 04:36 PM

The one thing that is necessary in ddo is dps.

Amen to that.

DPS is king, period.

Borror0

03-23-2009, 04:42 PM

Not planning to take full advantage of it perhaps. Making a DPS only-ranger is not very bright. Lower dps than fighter builds, so what's the point?
While there are multiple reason to lower the Str on a ranger, this build does not take advantage of any of them.

In every group where one character will have better DPS than it, or where another character will have Intimidate, this build will always fall short to a ranger with higher Str.

As I have pointed out in many threads intimidate is not nearly as useful as you put forth.
I have never stated that Intimidate was a prerequisite to success.

Aaxeyu

03-23-2009, 04:47 PM

While there are multiple reason to lower the Str on a ranger, this build does not take advantage of any of them.

In every group where one character will have better DPS than it, or where another character will have Intimidate, this build will always fall short to a ranger with higher Str.

Yes, obviously. But the build is not about dps.
There is no good reason to max str as ranger, as you all you become is a dps-wannabe.
My build have not the highest DPS, quite far from it, but considering the AC and selfhealing the DPS becomes quite nice.

What can your CE ranger accomplish that a non-CE ranger cannot?

Aspenor

03-23-2009, 04:48 PM

What can your CE ranger accomplish that a non-CE ranger cannot?

1. Use combat expertise. :D
2. Hit a few INT runes. :p

(heavy sarcasm here, sorry, I couldn't help myself)

Borror0

03-23-2009, 04:56 PM

There is no good reason to max str as ranger, as you all you become is a dps-wannabe.
Translation: Aaxeyu thinks that rangers will be gimped in Module 9.

Aaxeyu

03-23-2009, 05:11 PM

Translation: Aaxeyu thinks that rangers will be gimped in Module 9.

Their DPS won't be as high as fighter builds (100-50 dps difference iirc), so rangers who went allout on DPS will be gimped in comparison.
Builds like The Exploiter and my ranger build won't be gimped, as they have more to offer than dps. I am sure that you understand.

Here are some calculations: http://community.codemasters.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5007322&postcount=21

PS. please answer the question.

Ollathir

03-23-2009, 05:52 PM

Yes, obviously. But the build is not about dps.
There is no good reason to max str as ranger, as you all you become is a dps-wannabe.

An Elf Pure Ranger bld @ 36 str (potential 42 well equipped) +10 FE dmg +4 enh FE dmg +2 Bow dmg + 25% speed boost well timed Many Shot...

May be worthy of DPS

MondoGrunday

03-23-2009, 06:00 PM

An Elf Pure Ranger bld @ 36 str (potential 42 well equipped) +10 FE dmg +4 enh FE dmg +2 Bow dmg + 25% speed boost well timed Many Shot...

May be worthy of DPS

touche!

Borror0

03-23-2009, 06:03 PM

Their DPS won't be as high as fighter builds (100-50 dps difference iirc), so rangers who went allout on DPS will be gimped in comparison.
Rangers will still deal more DPS than fighters vs FE (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=174906), which is about the only mobs that matter.

BLAKROC

03-23-2009, 06:15 PM

Ever considered that I might actually be correct?
Just because you don't like me doesn't mean I'm wrong.

it's not about like or dislike. if that's what you think then your are yet again mistaken.

it's about your ATTITUDE towards everyone that disagrees with you,
you made a build to be effective at what you wanted it to be. well done

when you attempt to convice peeps that your build is far superior to other similiar builds is where your logic train falls off.

FluffyCalico

03-23-2009, 09:24 PM

What's the point of making an indestructible ball with crappy DPS and no Intimidate?

Well if mod 9 brings a raid with 2 badasses you have to fight at the same time. The ball of no die could entertain one while the party kills the other.

Other than that I am out of idea.

Edit: Something that just won't die could sure aggervate people in pvp.

Turial

03-23-2009, 09:30 PM

Well if mod 9 brings a raid with 2 badasses you have to fight at the same time. The ball of no die could entertain one while the party kills the other.

Other than that I am out of idea.

Edit: Something that just won't die could sure aggervate people in pvp.

That's what natural 20's are for...they eventually have to die.

Borror0

03-23-2009, 09:32 PM

Well if mod 9 brings a raid with 2 badasses you have to fight at the same time. The ball of no die could entertain one while the party kills the other.

Other than that I am out of idea.
Even there, two good tanks would probably do the job better.

Aaxeyu

03-23-2009, 11:51 PM

An Elf Pure Ranger bld @ 36 str (potential 42 well equipped) +10 FE dmg +4 enh FE dmg +2 Bow dmg + 25% speed boost well timed Many Shot...

May be worthy of DPS

It sure is good burst DPS, but there is a 2 min cooldown you know?

Rangers will still deal more DPS than fighters vs FE (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=174906), which is about the only mobs that matter.

No they won't.
You can't include full SA on one build, and no SA on another^^

Fighters = ~500 dps.
Rangers = ~400-440 dps.

That is over 5 min as all my calcs.

Aaxeyu

03-23-2009, 11:55 PM

it's not about like or dislike. if that's what you think then your are yet again mistaken.

it's about your ATTITUDE towards everyone that disagrees with you,
you made a build to be effective at what you wanted it to be. well done

when you attempt to convice peeps that your build is far superior to other similiar builds is where your logic train falls off.

So I am wrong becasue you don't like me attitude?

In this thread I have been trying to show people that CE is not worth it for a ranger, and that my ranger is stronger than The Exploiter as someone brought that build up.

My logics do not fail, you simply don't understand what we are talking about here.

Borror0

03-23-2009, 11:58 PM

You can't include full SA on one build, and no SA on another^^
Both build actually include the Sneak Attack damage.

That is over 5 min as all my calcs.
There are multiple things wrong with these assumptions.

Assumes only red name DPS will matter, no mob movement, no boost loss, extremely short fights, etc. When you go for anything close to realistic, rangers are much ahead.

Aaxeyu

03-24-2009, 12:22 AM

Both build actually include the Sneak Attack damage.

Then they are simply wrong.
They assume the same thing as my calcs.

On that list both the monster and a wf kensai is ahead of the the ranger, but I don't see any SA mentioned on them, just on the ranger.

There are multiple things wrong with these assumptions.

Assumes only red name DPS will matter, no mob movement, no boost loss, extremely short fights, etc. When you go for anything close to realistic, rangers are much ahead.

Extremely short fights? 5 minutes is along time.
Is everyone on the US servers playing intimitanks only?

Yes, these calcs are optimistic, but you don't seem to realise that rangers will lose alot of dps in those conditions too, the fighter builds just won't drop 100 dps while the rangers remain on their 440.

Borror0

03-24-2009, 12:33 AM

On that list both the monster and a wf kensai is ahead of the the ranger, but I don't see any SA mentioned on them, just on the ranger.
Sneak Attacks are included in the calculations. (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2086688&postcount=46)

[....] the fighter builds just won't drop 100 dps while the rangers remain on their 440.
The calculations are extremely biased. While the ranger will also drop, it will not be nearly as much as the fighter.

Aaxeyu

03-24-2009, 12:44 AM

Sneak Attacks are included in the calculations. (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2086688&postcount=46)

Okay, but there is no haste boost there, so it's a very bad comparison. That, if something, is extremely biased.

The calculations are extremely biased. While the ranger will also drop, it will not be nearly as much as the fighter.

They are not exremely biased.

Rangers will arguably drop more than fighters.
I have told you why many times, by you are too dense to realise it.

If my calcs would include haste boost on 100%, then yes they would be very biased towards fighters, but that's not the case.

Borror0

03-24-2009, 12:54 AM

Oops, wrong button.

Delt

03-24-2009, 01:14 AM

Aaxeyu

03-24-2009, 05:14 AM

Oops, wrong button.

Maybe you are just wrong?

Ollathir

03-24-2009, 12:48 PM

It sure is good burst DPS, but there is a 2 min cooldown you know?

Same can be said, theres only a 2 min timer you know? The many shot shot is icing on the cake, or are you really than unfamiliar with the term DPS?

Ollathir

03-24-2009, 12:59 PM

Why do the threads by this guy get so many replies? Just curious.

I mean, the so-called "Monster" is a simple continuation of builds that have been on NA servers for a while -- basically since it was clear the PrE's would be 6/12/18 (2rogue variation first, monk versions later). This build is an exploiter (posted on the NA forums what, seconds after the devs announced the Tempest PrE), slightly modified.

Is it common for Europeans to adopt other's ideas as their own? If so, why are people caring? Is it the poster's dispostion that is fanning the fire or is there actually something interesting here that I am missing?

Problem is that some of our players may take what he says as truthfull, maybe forsaking more competent builds, without contesting the information. Swallowing this that he shovels, many newer players on servers you may play on could find themselves wishing they only known better as they click the delete character option.

Aaxeyu

03-24-2009, 01:02 PM

Same can be said, theres only a 2 min timer you know? The many shot shot is icing on the cake, or are you really than unfamiliar with the term DPS?

It will still not make up for the DPS difference.
Bows are very slow compared to melee, and remember that you get 2 hits on every swing with GTWF.

Aaxeyu

03-24-2009, 01:07 PM

Problem is that some of our players may take what he says as truthfull, maybe forsaking more competent builds, without contesting the information. Swallowing this that he shovels, many newer players on servers you may play on could find themselves wishing they only known better as they click the delete character option.

So are you saying that what I say is not truthfull?
Yes, I admit that I was wrong about the monster, you could actually make a build with 1-3% higher DPS.
But if you are going to say that build is more competent, then you don't know what you are talking about.

You are implying that my builds are somehow bad, can you back that up with something?
I don't think you can, as i believee that you are just another fool who says that I am wrong because you don't like me or my attitude.

Aaxeyu

03-24-2009, 01:09 PM

Why do the threads by this guy get so many replies? Just curious.

I mean, the so-called "Monster" is a simple continuation of builds that have been on NA servers for a while -- basically since it was clear the PrE's would be 6/12/18 (2rogue variation first, monk versions later). This build is an exploiter (posted on the NA forums what, seconds after the devs announced the Tempest PrE), slightly modified.

Is it common for Europeans to adopt other's ideas as their own? If so, why are people caring? Is it the poster's dispostion that is fanning the fire or is there actually something interesting here that I am missing?

An equal Class-split doesn't make an equal build. Link me a build that is equal to The Monster for example.
There are some obvious class-splits to go, but making the stats, enhancements and feats is what makes the build.

Ollathir

03-24-2009, 02:49 PM

It will still not make up for the DPS difference.
Bows are very slow compared to melee, and remember that you get 2 hits on every swing with GTWF.

Versatility. I still see a Ranger against FE holding his own in the DPS world w/ TWF. Fighter, Barb, Paly's in their own right are awsome DPS tanks but not so far ahead to make a max str Ranger build a DPS wannabe. I have at least one of each and don't favor one over the other when a hvy tank is needed.

Ollathir

03-24-2009, 02:52 PM

So are you saying that what I say is not truthfull?
Yes, I admit that I was wrong about the monster, you could actually make a build with 1-3% higher DPS.
But if you are going to say that build is more competent, then you don't know what you are talking about.

You are implying that my builds are somehow bad, can you back that up with something?
I don't think you can, as i believee that you are just another fool who says that I am wrong because you don't like me or my attitude.

I have nothing against the monster, (part Rng) or this Ranger build. Ther are several ways to go about getting a practical self healing build. To imply 'God' as the title is misleading, as are several of your objections.

Aaxeyu

03-24-2009, 03:04 PM

Versatility. I still see a Ranger against FE holding his own in the DPS world w/ TWF. Fighter, Barb, Paly's in their own right are awsome DPS tanks but not so far ahead to make a max str Ranger build a DPS wannabe. I have at least one of each and don't favor one over the other when a hvy tank is needed.

You can't really judge how they will perform in mod 9 by how they perfrom today. Much will change in mod 9 you know..

Fighters (and tempest fighters) are actually so far ahead. If you don't believe my calculations, make your own.
Maxing str on a ranger makes no sense at all. If you just drop 2 str you can get an excellent AC while only losing like 3-10 DPS.
It's selfgimpage.
The AC combined with great selfhealing through CSW makes a very versatile toon.

Aaxeyu

03-24-2009, 03:07 PM

I have nothing against the monster, (part Rng) or this Ranger build. Ther are several ways to go about getting a practical self healing build. To imply 'God' as the title is misleading, as are several of your objections.

Yes, the "god" in the title can be misleading if you don't care to read the thread.

What of my objections are missleading?
Is the countless times that I have shown that CE is not worth it for rangers?

Ollathir

03-24-2009, 04:44 PM

Yes, the "god" in the title can be misleading if you don't care to read the thread.

What of my objections are missleading?
Is the countless times that I have shown that CE is not worth it for rangers?

Your current build here shows 57 (59) unbuffed.
A max str Ranger w/ CE 49 (54)

Personaly I don't see gimped at all, I can live with the -4-(6 when in PA mode) less AC on the back end for a better balance and more AP's to create the versatiliy in skills many Fighters/ Paly/ Barbs or your Ranger Build won't have.

You fail to accept your build is just another MC option, not the optimum, (same problem you had with your monster build). You could accomplish similar goals by subtituting Cleric for Ranger, or go halfling Fighter for Ranger.

Your are misleading when you make simple statements such as "A max str Ranger is a waste" CE is not worth it for Rangers". Or simply claiming this build superior to the Exploiter. Your arguments are one sided and blind, the player will be the deciding factor for any build.

Aaxeyu

03-24-2009, 05:04 PM

Your current build here shows 57 (59) unbuffed.
A max str Ranger w/ CE 49 (54)

Personaly I don't see gimped at all, I can live with the -4-(6 when in PA mode) less AC on the back end for a better balance and more AP's to create the versatiliy in skills many Fighters/ Paly/ Barbs or your Ranger Build won't have.

You fail to accept your build is just another MC option, not the optimum, (same problem you had with your monster build). You could accomplish similar goals by subtituting Cleric for Ranger, or go halfling Fighter for Ranger.

I believe that it is the optimum, I am yet to be proven wrong.
Borror0 tried with the exploiter build, but failed.

Your are misleading when you make simple statements such as "A max str Ranger is a waste" CE is not worth it for Rangers". Or simply claiming this build superior to the Exploiter. Your arguments are one sided and blind, the player will be the deciding factor for any build.

You make it sound like I just throw random statements around without backing them up.

I have showed you my reason to why I think CE is not worth it, go ahead and show me some reasons why CE actually would be worth it.

Making a max str ranger is not smart, how could anyone even argue that it is?
Going with 16 str saves 6 build points which can take the build to a very high AC score.
You lose either 1 damage on both hands or 1 damage in the main hand only along with 1 tohit.
That is not a very big loss compared to what you gain.

You are misleading readers by saying that I am wrong, because I am not.

kingfisher

03-24-2009, 08:05 PM

Why do the threads by this guy get so many replies? Just curious.

I mean, the so-called "Monster" is a simple continuation of builds that have been on NA servers for a while -- basically since it was clear the PrE's would be 6/12/18 (2rogue variation first, monk versions later). This build is an exploiter (posted on the NA forums what, seconds after the devs announced the Tempest PrE), slightly modified.

Is it common for Europeans to adopt other's ideas as their own? If so, why are people caring? Is it the poster's dispostion that is fanning the fire or is there actually something interesting here that I am missing?

lolzrz. immitation is the highest form of flattery i have heard

Borror0

03-24-2009, 08:19 PM

Borror0 tried with the exploiter build, but failed.
Untrue. Exploiter out-DPS the Monster build, after 10 minutes (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=2054836#post2054836).

Though, we're talking about a human build without maximum Str. Somewhat normal.

Aaxeyu

03-25-2009, 02:58 AM

Untrue. Exploiter out-DPS the Monster build, after 10 minutes (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=2054836#post2054836).

Though, we're talking about a human build without maximum Str. Somewhat normal.

I would like to see the numbers behind those calculations, and also remind you that 10 minutes is a very long time in DDO terms.

The exploiter does not outdps the monster, not even if the exploiters str is beefed up to max.

Here is a comparison:

Damage
Rng 18/mnk 1/rog1 Exlpoiter human
Khopesh, Mineral Khopesh, Mineral
5,5 5,5 Weapon
14 7 Strength
5 5 Power attack
12 12 Favored mob
5 5 Weapon mod
2 2 Ram's Might
8 8 Song
1 1 prayer
------------------------------
52,5 45,5 total normal
------------------------------
7 7 holy
3,5 3,5 acid
2,5 2,5 slicing
-------------------------------
13 13 Total effects
--------------------------------
65,5 58,5 Average damage on non-crit
-----------------------------
critical hits:
157,5 136,5 Normal
13 13 Effects
11 11 acid burst
11 0 acid blast
14 0 Natural 20
18 18 Seeker
---------------------------------
210,5 178,5 Avarage critical damage
--------------------------------
1838,5 1591,5 Total damage on 20 attacks
--------------------------------
0 0 Attack 1
65,5 58,5 Attack 2
65,5 58,5 Attack 3
65,5 58,5 Attack 4
65,5 58,5 Attack 5
65,5 58,5 Attack 6
65,5 58,5 Attack 7
65,5 58,5 Attack 8
65,5 58,5 Attack 9
65,5 58,5 Attack 10
65,5 58,5 Attack 11
65,5 58,5 Attack 12
65,5 58,5 Attack 13
65,5 58,5 Attack 14
65,5 58,5 Attack 15
65,5 58,5 Attack 16
210,5 178,5 Attack 17
210,5 178,5 Attack 18
210,5 178,5 Attack 19
224,5 178,5 Attack 20
----------------------------------
91,93 79,58 Average damage per hit
----------------------------------
737,78 614,81 Swings/5M
----------------------------------
99,6 83 Normal
132,8 110,67 Haste (Going after the only official word on attackspeed here, haste = 4/3)
147,56 122,96 Tempest (=1.1111111111)
---------------------------------
67824,12 48926,58 DMG/5M
--------------------------------
23350,13 Total/M
226.1 163,1 DMG/S
389,2 Total/S

Damage
Fgt 12/ Mnk2 /Rng 6 Warforged monster
Khopesh,Mineral Weapon
5,5 5,5 Weapon
16 8 Strength
8 8 Power attack
6 6 Favored mob
4 4 Wep Speci
5 5 Weapon mod
3 3 Fighter dmg enhancements
2 2 Ram's Might
8 8 songs
1 1 prayer
--------------------------------
58,5 50,5 Total normal
--------------------------------
7 7 Holy
3,5 3,5 Acid
2,5 2,5 Slicing
-------------------------------
13 13 Total effects
--------------------------------
71,5 63,5 Average damage on non crits
-------------------------------
175,5 151,5 Normal
13 13 Effects
11 11 Acid burst
11 0 Acid blast
14 0 Natural 20
30 30 Seeker
-----------------------------
240,5 205,5 Avarage critical damage
-----------------------------
2048,5 1774,5 Total damage on 20 attacks
-----------------------------
0 0 Attack 1
71,5 63,5 Attack 2
71,5 63,5 Attack 3
71,5 63,5 Attack 4
71,5 63,5 Attack 5
71,5 63,5 Attack 6
71,5 63,5 Attack 7
71,5 63,5 Attack 8
71,5 63,5 Attack 9
71,5 63,5 Attack 10
71,5 63,5 Attack 11
71,5 63,5 Attack 12
71,5 63,5 Attack 13
71,5 63,5 Attack 14
71,5 63,5 Attack 15
71,5 63,5 Attack 16
240,5 205,5 Attack 17
240,5 205,5 Attack 18
240,5 205,5 Attack 19
254,5 205,5 Attack 20
------------------------------
102,43 88,73 Average damage per hit
------------------------------
614,81 614,81 Swings/5M
---------------------------
83 83 Normal
110,67 110,67 Haste
122,96 122,96 Tempest
----------------------------
62972,25 54549,31 DMG/5M
23504,31 Total/M
209,91 181,83 DMG/S
391,74 Total/S

The Exploiter : 389,2 dps
The Monster = 391,74 dps
And if i remove bard songs the difference will be even greater, as the exploiter gains more attacks, same goes for mobs that are immune to acid, holy and/or slicing.
The Exploiter will also lose the extra mainhand attack if he moves during the attack chain, something that is not rare at all.

So even without powersurge and haste boost the monster will have higher dps than the exploiter.
This calc is VERY biased towards the Exploiter, but still The Monster have higher dps.

I hope you can read it this time.

Borror0

03-25-2009, 03:37 AM

[...] and also remind you that 10 minutes is a very long time in DDO terms.
Quote for self-refutation.

Aaxeyu

03-25-2009, 03:56 AM

Quote for self-refutation.

You seem to think that the average fight is 10 minutes long.
That is just plain wrong, unless ofcourse you only play with gimped intimitanks.

FluffyCalico

03-25-2009, 04:01 AM

You seem to think that the average fight is 10 minutes long.
That is just plain wrong, unless ofcourse you only play with gimped intimitanks.

You seem to think you have enough Favored enimies to cover every mob type that DDO will ever add.

Aaxeyu

03-25-2009, 04:06 AM

You seem to think you have enough Favored enimies to cover every mob type that DDO will ever add.

No, I don't. But I think that it will cover the mobs where DPS matters most.
Losing FE damage is not enough to bring the DPS down to a rangers level.

FluffyCalico

03-25-2009, 04:12 AM

No, I don't. But I think that it will cover the mobs where DPS matters most.
Losing FE damage is not enough to bring the DPS down to a rangers level.

To justify your opening statements you need to change this one to "DPS down to anywhere near anything elses level"

Aaxeyu

03-25-2009, 04:26 AM

To justify your opening statements you need to change this one to "DPS down to anywhere near anything elses level"

lol. You are very slow.
I no longer claim the monster to be the highst dps toon.

FluffyCalico

03-25-2009, 04:28 AM

lol. You are very slow.
I no longer claim the monster to be the highst dps toon.

True now you think this remake of someone elses idea is "god"

Aaxeyu

03-25-2009, 04:59 AM

True now you think this remake of someone elses idea is "god"

lol. Yet again you show your ignorance, and that you have not read the thread.

This is not a remake of anyones idea. It's a ranger, not the first, not the last. But saying that it's a remake is like saying that every toon is a remake of some build.

FYI, I came up with the name before the build. It was to follow the trend at the EU forums, 100% humor.

FluffyCalico

03-25-2009, 05:02 AM

lol. Yet again you show your ignorance, and that you have not read the thread.

This is not a remake of anyones idea. It's a ranger, not the first, not the last. But saying that it's a remake is like saying that every toon is a remake of some build.

FYI, I came up with the name before the build. It was to follow the trend at the EU forums, 100% humor.

Lets see take the build that people beat you over the head with last time over and over and change 3-4 things and pop it out. Yep sounds like a remake to me. And yes I did read it. You will notice 5-6 other people have noticed it's just a remake that is worse than the origional

Aaxeyu

03-25-2009, 06:19 AM

Lets see take the build that people beat you over the head with last time over and over and change 3-4 things and pop it out. Yep sounds like a remake to me. And yes I did read it. You will notice 5-6 other people have noticed it's just a remake that is worse than the origional

So every ranger with the very obvious monk and rogue splash is a remake of The Exploiter.
I promise you, it's not brain surgery to come up with that level split.

The rest of the build differs quite alot if you see to the things that actually can differ.

Those who have said that it's worse than the exploiter have not have anything real to back it up with, Borror0 tried and yet again he failed.

FluffyCalico

03-25-2009, 06:51 AM

So every ranger with the very obvious monk and rogue splash is a remake of The Exploiter.
I promise you, it's not brain surgery to come up with that level split.

The rest of the build differs quite alot if you see to the things that actually can differ.

Those who have said that it's worse than the exploiter have not have anything real to back it up with, Borror0 tried and yet again he failed.

Still waiting for you to prove its better. As 99% of forum has stated its not there must not be much proof.

Hadrian

03-25-2009, 07:41 AM

Personally, I would make this build a halfling and skip Oversized TWF. You won't need it.

That opens the possibility of taking racial sneak attack enhancments, and along with Tharne's Goggles and the little bit of rogue sneak attack, you can pump out significant damage that way.

My own halfling tempest /1 rogue has +8 to hit and about +20.5 average backstab damage per swing this way. It makes a very large difference for me. I find in practice that my 20 str finesse build can quite easily pull aggro off of virtually anyone when the sneak attack damage is active since I have no aggro reduction.

Although I am sure some of the finesse rogues that I frequently run with do more damage than me, I also know that they have a lot of aggro reduction.

The_Mighty_Cube

03-25-2009, 09:54 AM

Knock off the personal attacks, or The Cube will return with a great appetite.

Borror0

03-25-2009, 10:30 AM

You seem to think that the average fight is 10 minutes long.
Fight where monsters immobile enough for Haste Boost to matter usually take more than 10 minutes.

Though, it's a good character in the Shroud... perhaps.

Aaxeyu

03-25-2009, 10:35 AM

Still waiting for you to prove its better. As 99% of forum has stated its not there must not be much proof.

Just read the thread then perhaps?

Jeez, you think I am wrong because the majority disagrees with me? lol, so why don't you play WoW? The majority think that's a better game.

Aaxeyu

03-25-2009, 10:38 AM

Ollathir

03-25-2009, 10:40 AM

Aaxeyu

03-25-2009, 10:41 AM

Fight where monsters immobile enough for Haste Boost to matter usually take more than 10 minutes.

Though, it's a good character in the Shroud... perhaps.

You know that include every fight in the game, as haste boost can always matter, and saying that most of the fights in the game takes more than 10 minutes is just ridiculous.

Also, are you doubting the characters usefulness in shroud?

Borror0

03-25-2009, 10:46 AM

You know that include every fight in the game, as haste boost can always matter
Mattering, yes it does, but that does not mean it will be close to your calculations.

Aaxeyu

03-25-2009, 10:54 AM

The Exploiter : 389,2 dps
The Monster = 391,74 dps

Using your calcs, I'm assuming Exploiter at 38 Str, Monster at 42 Str ?

If this is correct, what does your calcs show would be DPS at 32 or 36 str for Exploiter.

32 str:
373,65 no haste boost and not SA
395,57 with 5 haste boost used over 5 minutes.
461,32 with 5 boosts used over 5 minutes and full SA from rogue levels and tharnes.

36 str:
383,06 no haste boost and not SA
405,53 with 5 haste boost used over 5 minutes.
471,28 with 5 boosts used over 5 minutes and full SA from rogue levels and tharnes.

So 4 str gives 10 dps.

Aaxeyu

03-25-2009, 10:55 AM

Mattering, yes it does, but that does not mean it will be close to your calculations.

That's not what you said.
But sure, change the arguments!

Ollathir

03-25-2009, 11:14 AM

32 str:
373,65 no haste boost and not SA
395,57 with 5 haste boost used over 5 minutes.
461,32 with 5 boosts used over 5 minutes and full SA from rogue levels and tharnes.

36 str:
383,06 no haste boost and not SA
405,53 with 5 haste boost used over 5 minutes.
471,28 with 5 boosts used over 5 minutes and full SA from rogue levels and tharnes.

So 4 str gives 10 dps.

Thanks.

You can't really judge how they will perform in mod 9 by how they perfrom today. Much will change in mod 9 you know.. Exactly, I agree with you, Mod 9 rules may hurt Rangers, Fighters, Barbs, Palys, Rog, etc.
Fighters (and tempest fighters) are actually so far ahead. If you don't believe my calculations, make your own.
Maxing str on a ranger makes no sense at all. If you just drop 2 str you can get an excellent AC while only losing like 3-10 DPS. Individual’s preference really considering the AC difference.
It's selfgimpage.
The AC combined with great selfhealing through CSW makes a very versatile toon.

I believe that it is the optimum, I am yet to be proven wrong. Went through this with the monster, only now your arguing not maxing Str, Not taking CE, and healing ability for versatility all at the optimum.

I have showed you my reason to why I think CE is not worth it, go ahead and show me some reasons why CE actually would be worth it.

Making a max str ranger is not smart, how could anyone even argue that it is?
Going with 16 str saves 6 build points which can take the build to a very high AC score. How much difference?
You lose either 1 damage on both hands or 1 damage in the main hand only along with 1 tohit.
That is not a very big loss compared to what you gain.

You are misleading readers by saying that I am wrong, because I am not.

Alright, looking at just your build stat spread, here’s how it could be done:
Starting Stats:-------Different approach
Str 16--------------------Str 18
Dex 16-------------------Dex 14
Con 12-------------------Con 12
Int 8 ---------------------Int 8
Wis 15--------------------Wis 14
Cha 8---------------------Cha 8

Ending Stats: Yours
Str 32 (16 base + 5 level + 6 item + 3 tome + 2 rams )
Dex 28 (16 base + 3 tome + 6 item + 2 ranger enhancement +1 enhancement)
Con 20 (12 base + 2 tome + 6 item)
Int 10 (8 base + 2 tome)
Wis 28 (15 base +3 tome + 6 item +2 shroud weapon +1 enhancement +1 DT armor)
Cha 10 (8 base + 2 tome)

Ending Stats: Mine
Str 36 (18 base + 5 level + 6 item +2 tome + 2 rams +1 human enh *+2 Shroud wpn- Stm, crush, slay )
Dex 26 (14 base + 2 tome + 6 item + *3 ranger enhancement +1 human enh) -1 AC
Con 20 (12 base + 2 tome + 6 item)
Int 10 (8 base + 2 tome)
Wis 22 (14 base +2 tome + 6 item) -3 AC
Cha 10 (8 base + 2 tome)
*Human Vers a waste with 43 UMD unless your looking to open a lock disable a trap…
*Could do a shroud + 3 Str if you did manage a +3 tome for 38 Str

End result vs. your spread
The benefits of higher ,36 Str are around + 10 DPS vs. - 4 AC (-6 if you swallow a Rage pot to increase +5 DPS). You are arguing you could use Defensive stance and not take CE (which is only- 3 AC difference between the 2). Neither does this spread rely on +3 Tomes much less 3 of them to include a Str. Trade off being getting hit roughly 3-5% more or doing +1200 DPS over 2 min. to +3000 DPS over 5 min.
With this look you can keep your feats the same, have the same healing power but evident benifits to your DPS. Unless you think the tradeoff is worth it for 4 AC.

But what if you did decide you want CE or you had or knew you would have 3 +3 Tomes to chew ?
1-2 less skill points in Dex if you use a +3 Dex tome, (which you used in your orig calcs.)
1 less skill point in Wis if you use a +3 Wis tome (which you used in your orig. calcs) Still come up with the same spread of AC bonus, (-4 vs. your spread)
And add +2-3 to Int. (I suppose it depends on if this is one of the +3 tomes to determine Dex pts as well.)

End result vs. your spread
+1 AP per lvl, 20 extra AP with +2 Tome at lvl 1,(versatitility) at end game for more options such as Intimi, (Open lock 12-15 good for most with item such as Titan pre or Flesh mkrs or Disable 15-17 fine for Vod, monastery, etc. also fairly nice for soloing), CE for +5 AC, 36 Str or +2 w/ rage(38 with a +4 tome, like you show with your monster bld.)

I don’t see any real loss building a Max Str Ranger. Using your calcs, your build, with the spread I mention to maximize Str would avg. 2-5 DPS less,(240 over 2 min, 600 over 5 min) than your DPS monster build, 389.2 – 391.74. Ahh, but the monster is no longer a viable DPS build…
Then calculating staying Pure Ranger, Max Str, with the Tempest III, and the Bow Option on the back end w/ 25% increase, occasional Many shot is very simple , (which is fairly sick DPS for the first 20 sec., switch to melee, repeat as often as necessary). What don’t you see? What makes Rangers such a waste in DPS?

Your rants to subclass all Rangers as Tank DPS wannabes are ridiculous. It’s called versatility, the game seems to enjoy it, jump in, the waters fine. Palys, Ftrs, Barbs, Rogs, Rangs, can all be made into hvy DPS tanks. The game is fluid and likes changes, nothing is God or finite here.

Aaxeyu

03-25-2009, 12:02 PM

Thanks.

Alright, looking at just your build stat spread, here’s how it could be done:
Starting Stats:-------Different approach
Str 16--------------------Str 18
Dex 16-------------------Dex 14
Con 12-------------------Con 12
Int 8 ---------------------Int 8
Wis 15--------------------Wis 14
Cha 8---------------------Cha 8

Ending Stats: Yours
Str 32 (16 base + 5 level + 6 item + 3 tome + 2 rams )
Dex 28 (16 base + 3 tome + 6 item + 2 ranger enhancement +1 enhancement)
Con 20 (12 base + 2 tome + 6 item)
Int 10 (8 base + 2 tome)
Wis 28 (15 base +3 tome + 6 item +2 shroud weapon +1 enhancement +1 DT armor)
Cha 10 (8 base + 2 tome)

Ending Stats: Mine
Str 36 (18 base + 5 level + 6 item +2 tome + 2 rams +1 human enh *+2 Shroud wpn- Stm, crush, slay )
Dex 26 (14 base + 2 tome + 6 item + *3 ranger enhancement +1 human enh) -1 AC
Con 20 (12 base + 2 tome + 6 item)
Int 10 (8 base + 2 tome)
Wis 22 (14 base +2 tome + 6 item) -3 AC
Cha 10 (8 base + 2 tome)
*Human Vers a waste with 43 UMD unless your looking to open a lock disable a trap…
*Could do a shroud + 3 Str if you did manage a +3 tome for 38 Str

End result vs. your spread
The benefits of higher ,36 Str are around + 10 DPS vs. - 4 AC (-6 if you swallow a Rage pot to increase +5 DPS). You are arguing you could use Defensive stance and not take CE (which is only- 3 AC difference between the 2). Neither does this spread rely on +3 Tomes much less 3 of them to include a Str. Trade off being getting hit roughly 3-5% more or doing +1200 DPS over 2 min. to +3000 DPS over 5 min.
With this look you can keep your feats the same, have the same healing power but evident benifits to your DPS. Unless you think the tradeoff is worth it for 4 AC.

But what if you did decide you want CE or you had or knew you would have 3 +3 Tomes to chew ?
1-2 less skill points in Dex if you use a +3 Dex tome, (which you used in your orig calcs.)
1 less skill point in Wis if you use a +3 Wis tome (which you used in your orig. calcs) Still come up with the same spread of AC bonus, (-4 vs. your spread)
And add +2-3 to Int. (I suppose it depends on if this is one of the +3 tomes to determine Dex pts as well.)

End result vs. your spread
+1 AP per lvl, 20 extra AP with +2 Tome at lvl 1,(versatitility) at end game for more options such as Intimi, (Open lock 12-15 good for most with item such as Titan pre or Flesh mkrs or Disable 15-17 fine for Vod, monastery, etc. also fairly nice for soloing), CE for +5 AC, 36 Str or +2 w/ rage(38 with a +4 tome, like you show with your monster bld.)

I don’t see any real loss building a Max Str Ranger. Using your calcs, your build, with the spread I mention to maximize Str would avg. 2-5 DPS less,(240 over 2 min, 600 over 5 min) than your DPS monster build, 389.2 – 391.74. Ahh, but the monster is no longer a viable DPS build…
Then calculating staying Pure Ranger, Max Str, with the Tempest III, and the Bow Option on the back end w/ 25% increase, occasional Many shot is very simple , (which is fairly sick DPS for the first 20 sec., switch to melee, repeat as often as necessary). What don’t you see? What makes Rangers such a waste in DPS?

Your rants to subclass all Rangers as Tank DPS wannabes are ridiculous. It’s called versatility, the game seems to enjoy it, jump in, the waters fine. Palys, Ftrs, Barbs, Rogs, Rangs, can all be made into hvy DPS tanks. The game is fluid and likes changes, nothing is God or finite here.

Nice analysis, finaly someone actually backs there statements up with something.

I don't agree that 2-3% more DPS is worth 6 AC thou, it's not a very fair trade.

You missed one extremely important thing about the monster calculation, I didn't include either haste boost or powersurge.
My point with that calc was to show that even without those things the monster is still ahead of a max str human ranger/rogue/monk.
So your conclusions are completely false.

Hadrian

03-25-2009, 03:06 PM

Aaxeyu

03-25-2009, 03:20 PM

Do you think that your build could go all out DPS and tank Sully at the same time?

And Bororr0, what fight in the game lasts 10 minutes? Even the one I just mentioned isn't really 10 minutes, since he fights you a few minutes at a time and then gives you a break.

Not without high intimidate.
His AC is high enough, but he would lose aggro quite fast if there was a "real" dps toon there.

No ranger have ever beena ble to hold aggr via dps from my monster, and next mod the dps difference will be greater.

Ollathir

03-25-2009, 03:22 PM

Nice analysis, finaly someone actually backs there statements up with something.

I don't agree that 2-3% more DPS is worth 6 AC thou, it's not a very fair trade.

You missed one extremely important thing about the monster calculation, I didn't include either haste boost or powersurge.
My point with that calc was to show that even without those things the monster is still ahead of a max str human ranger/rogue/monk.
So your conclusions are completely false.

Didn't miss it, I used the calcs you showed. Still takes nothing away from the discussion. In my opinion, as one who favors DPS over the small AC gain and not to rely on +3 tomes, works out better using your build, your calcs.

Hadrian

03-25-2009, 03:53 PM

Not without high intimidate.
His AC is high enough, but he would lose aggro quite fast if there was a "real" dps toon there.

No ranger have ever beena ble to hold aggr via dps from my monster, and next mod the dps difference will be greater.

What would his AC actually be if you went all out on DPS? Assume perfect gear, and just in case it doesn't go without saying, make sure it's actually possible too. (No using three rings at the same time or something like that.)

Aaxeyu

03-25-2009, 04:00 PM

Didn't miss it, I used the calcs you showed. Still takes nothing away from the discussion. In my opinion, as one who favors DPS over the small AC gain and not to rely on +3 tomes, works out better using your build, your calcs.

It takes this part away from the discussion really:

I don’t see any real loss building a Max Str Ranger. Using your calcs, your build, with the spread I mention to maximize Str would avg. 2-5 DPS less,(240 over 2 min, 600 over 5 min) than your DPS monster build, 389.2 – 391.74. Ahh, but the monster is no longer a viable DPS build…
Then calculating staying Pure Ranger, Max Str, with the Tempest III, and the Bow Option on the back end w/ 25% increase, occasional Many shot is very simple , (which is fairly sick DPS for the first 20 sec., switch to melee, repeat as often as necessary). What don’t you see? What makes Rangers such a waste in DPS?

Your rants to subclass all Rangers as Tank DPS wannabes are ridiculous. It’s called versatility, the game seems to enjoy it, jump in, the waters fine. Palys, Ftrs, Barbs, Rogs, Rangs, can all be made into hvy DPS tanks. The game is fluid and likes changes, nothing is God or finite here.

You are talking about versatility, and still you want to max str on a ranger.
Don't you get that even a max str human ranger have less dps than a Monster when the monster isn't using his boosts or power surge. Add those and the ranger is far behind, even if it uses its 5 charges of 15% haste boost.
Both have manyshot.

Who said anything about The Monster not beeing viable? It's imo the best DPS build, (don't confuse "best DPS build" with "build with highest DPS")

I'm not the one who tries to subclass all rangers into DPS wannabes, I'm the one who's againts max str on rangers, remember?
Yes, all classes can be made into heavy DPS tanks, but some classes are simply superior.
A max str ranger will be behind in dps, quite far behind too. (Do some calcs on many shot before you use it as an argument please).
Rangers have lots of potential for great survivability and versatility, why waste so much of it by maxing STR for only a few points of DPS?

It's better to go 90% ac, 90% dps than 50% ac, 100% dps for rangers, as AC comes very easy to them, especially selfbuffed AC.

Aaxeyu

03-25-2009, 04:24 PM

What would his AC actually be if you went all out on DPS? Assume perfect gear, and just in case it doesn't go without saying, make sure it's actually possible too. (No using three rings at the same time or something like that.)

Str: max
Dex 26 (Base 14, +3 ranger, +3 tome, +6 item)
Wis 24 (Base 14, +3 tome, +6 item, +1 enhancement)

Lets see:
10 base
8 armored bracers
3 chattering ring
4 icy raiment
7 wisdom
8 dex
1 ritual
5 deflection
4 insight
1 dodge
4 tempest
-------------------
55 unbuffed.
-------------------
5 bark
2 recitation
------------------
62 selfbuffed

Compared to:

Str:16
Dex 28 (Base 15, +3 ranger + 3 tome + 6 item + 1 enhancement)
Wis 28 (Base 16, +3 tome, +6 item, +1 enhancement, +2 shroud item)

10 base
8 armored bracers
3 chattering ring
4 icy raiment
9 wisdom
9 dex
1 ritual
5 deflection
4 insight
1 dodge
4 tempest
-------------------
58 unbuffed.
-------------------
5 bark
2 recitation
------------------
65 selfbuffed

Both builds can obviously have +2 wisdom on mineral II, but you asked for all out DPS so be glad that the DPS build got +4 insight:p

The AC difference is 2/3 and they are on a level of AC where 2/3 AC matters.

If we assume that both builds go for the wisdom on the secons mineral two weapon the max str build have 6 dps higher. That is ~1,5% higher DPS for 2 AC.
2 AC is 10% on the d20, and if you ever had a AC toon you should know how awesome 2 AC is.

Hadrian

03-25-2009, 04:35 PM

Both builds can obviously have +2 wisdom on mineral II, but you asked for all out DPS so be glad that the DPS build got +4 insight:p

The AC difference is 2/3 and they are on a level of AC where 2/3 AC matters.

If we assume that both builds go for the wisdom on the secons mineral two weapon the max str build have 6 dps higher. That is ~1,5% higher DPS for 2 AC.
2 AC is 10% on the d20, and if you ever had a AC toon you should know how awesome 2 AC is.

Well, you're not going to stop and recast recitation against sully every 42 seconds or whatever it is in DPS mode either :) And since acid blast doesn't pass sully's resistance, the non-damaging 3rd tier effects are best. I see you're taking into account tempest III, so this is at level 20 and not current game.

But I am not comparing your build to his, I am comparing it to mine. I would never play an 18 STR ranger. My ranger is a halfling.

Aaxeyu

03-25-2009, 04:39 PM

Well, you're not going to stop and recast recitation against sully every 42 seconds or whatever it is in DPS mode either :) And since acid blast doesn't pass sully's resistance, the non-damaging 3rd tier effects are best. I see you're taking into account tempest III, so this is at level 20 and not current game.

But I am not comparing your build to his, I am comparing it to mine. I would never play an 18 STR ranger. My ranger is a halfling.

The clerics should be casting recitation, it's a very powerful buff.

Oh, I assumed mod 9, sorry.

Hadrian

03-25-2009, 05:00 PM

The clerics should be casting recitation, it's a very powerful buff.

Sure they should, but you put that under "self buffed". I don't count a cleric's buffs as self buffs.

Aaxeyu

03-25-2009, 05:06 PM

Sure they should, but you put that under "self buffed". I don't count a cleric's buffs as self buffs.

Oh yea. The calc was not only for suulo thou. Just AC.

Then it's 61 vs 63 selfbuffed.

Hadrian

03-25-2009, 05:10 PM

Oh yea. The calc was not only for suulo thou. Just AC.

Then it's 61 vs 63 selfbuffed.

Yes, including the +2 exceptional wisdom item.

Accelerando

03-27-2009, 10:26 AM

I don't agree that 2-3% more DPS is worth 6 AC thou, it's not a very fair trade.

Oh rly?

hereforbuilds

07-20-2009, 12:38 PM

Just pointing out a typo:
(nevermind I found the additional +1 charisma skill on another item)
Tempest shield bonus to AC caps at +3, not +4.

May I ask why you have Wizardry VI twice? One GS item has 150 SP on it, and another has Wiz 6. I don't think your gloves can have ALL those effects on them at once.

ther is triple air/pos on items that giv extra mana-tier 1=wiz 6, tier 2-+50 sp, tier 3-+100 (these 2 bonuses stack equaling 150 and wiz 6 stacks also equaling 275? im a bit foggy on the bonus behind wiz 6)

Absolute-Omniscience

07-20-2009, 12:54 PM

[img=http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/944/holythreadresurrectionbd.th.jpg] (http://img31.imageshack.us/my.php?image=holythreadresurrectionbd.jpg)

Uska

07-20-2009, 04:29 PM

kind of offensive calling something god.

QuantumFX

07-20-2009, 04:37 PM

kind of offensive calling something god.

The forum truncated “Awful rip off” from the title.

Absolute-Omniscience

07-20-2009, 04:41 PM

The forum truncated “Awful rip off” from the title.

The incorrect and biased persons thought it to be a rip off, yes. The ones that plays the game and isn't completely ignorant; not really; they deemed it a superior build. Just because something has the same class-split, doesn't make it a copy.
In that sense, the "Exploiter" is just as much of a copy, as "Verengor" posted a similar build on the EU forums months before the "Exploiter" was posted.

Protip, get yer facts right.

Yargore

07-20-2009, 04:43 PM

kind of offensive calling something god.

I disagree.

The forum truncated “Awful rip off” from the title.

Aweful rip off of what?

Because it have the same obvious class split as the oh so great exploiter? Please, it's not rocket science to figure out that it's the best way to go.

If you actually read the build you'll find that they are quite different. Although this one didn't gimp it self with CE.

QuantumFX

07-20-2009, 04:53 PM

Because it have the same obvious class split as the oh so great exploiter? Please, it's not rocket science to figure out that it's the best way to go.

Yes, it’s a cheap knock off of the Exploiter. And while it isn’t rocket science to build it is something original. The only original thing your build threads give the community is a sense of Deja Vu when they read them.

Absolute-Omniscience

07-20-2009, 04:56 PM

Yes, it’s a cheap knock off of the Exploiter. And while it isn’t rocket science to build it is something original. The only original thing your build threads give the community is a sense of Deja Vu when they read them.

The exploiter is not original in the sense that Verengor posted a similar build on the EU forums before the Exploiter here.

Once again, you fail.
Get yer facts right.

Yargore

07-20-2009, 04:58 PM

Yes, it’s a cheap knock off of the Exploiter. And while it isn’t rocket science to build it is something original. The only original thing your build threads give the community is a sense of Deja Vu when they read them.

You do know that a 18/1/1 was posted on the EU forums by a guy called Verengor many months before Einermal posted The Exploiter, right?

The Deja Vu is all the unfounded whining from people like you that got no real bad thing to say about the builds, so you take to personal attacks instead. Way to go.

sigtrent

07-20-2009, 05:21 PM

D'rin

07-20-2009, 05:32 PM

Yes but you are asking people to act like civilized adults. What the heck are you thinking?

A. "Inventing" a build is something of a myth. Chances are someones already done it but didn't post the thing. What matters is presenting it and explaining it. If someone else did it first, who cares? If you were inspired by another build, just say so. If not, then that's fine too. All builds are going to follow some similar ideas and once someone sees it, they quickly become part of the "fashion." The more builds we share, the better we all get at making cool characters.

B. In my mind the point of posting builds isn't to show yourself off as the grand daddy of building but to share your ideas with others. They may be good, they may be bad, they may be funny, but the point is you are sharing them instead of keeping them to yourself. Attacking people for sharing is counter productive. Thumping your chest about your creation is generally in poor form. That doesn't mean you can't argue for your choices, only that claiming absolute superiority is probably futile and only makes you look like an fool.

C. Personally I think more people should post the idea and motivations for their build instead of just posting up the numbers. It really cuts down on unnecessary critique that misses the point of what you were trying to achieve. Critiques should come in three forms (IMO)...
1. Ways the build could better meet its stated objectives
2. Simple errors in rules or calculations
3. Critiques of the purpose or intent of the build (generally my least favorite but sometimes the most interesting)

Absolute-Omniscience

07-20-2009, 05:53 PM

And you have less room to talk. The build you ripped off. (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=175534)
Haha, I laugh at you.
Jealousy does not suite you well.

And that makes your build any less of a rip off because?

Once again, you fail.
You keep defending builds that are "rip offs" by your own definition of rip offs. I mean, could it get more biased?

I find this very amusing, your failiure I mean.

QuantumFX

07-20-2009, 05:55 PM

A. "Inventing" a build is something of a myth. Chances are someones already done it but didn't post the thing. What matters is presenting it and explaining it. If someone else did it first, who cares? If you were inspired by another build, just say so. If not, then that's fine too. All builds are going to follow some similar ideas and once someone sees it, they quickly become part of the "fashion." The more builds we share, the better we all get at making cool characters.

B. In my mind the point of posting builds isn't to show yourself off as the grand daddy of building but to share your ideas with others. They may be good, they may be bad, they may be funny, but the point is you are sharing them instead of keeping them to yourself. Attacking people for sharing is counter productive. Thumping your chest about your creation is generally in poor form. That doesn't mean you can't argue for your choices, only that claiming absolute superiority is probably futile and only makes you look like an fool.

Just giving them a portion of the arrogance they spew on the forums on a daily basis Sigtrent. Indeed, they are doing nothing original. Unfortunately, they’re your stereotypical glory hounds. Perfectly willing to try and tear down other’s successes but completely unwilling to create their own. And when you don’t agree with their philosophy they go into ****** bag mode.

C. Personally I think more people should post the idea and motivations for their build instead of just posting up the numbers. It really cuts down on unnecessary critique that misses the point of what you were trying to achieve. Critiques should come in three forms (IMO)...
1. Ways the build could better meet its stated objectives
2. Simple errors in rules or calculations
3. Critiques of the purpose or intent of the build (generally my least favorite but sometimes the most interesting)

Indeed. Unfortunately, the form of critique these blowhards have been giving involves the following steps: (Taken from a recently closed thread in the ranger forums)
1) Read the build
2) Pay no attention to the builder’s goals. Nor pay any attention to the “guide” aspect of the OP.
3) Insert Cookie Cutter build that doesn’t meet the OP’s criteria.
4) Take at least a dozen pages of flaming to finally start reading the OP’s goals.
5) Posting a build that’s just as “bad”.
6) Make the community a worse place.

Absolute-Omniscience

07-20-2009, 05:59 PM

Perfectly willing to try and tear down other’s successes but completely unwilling to create their own.

So, you're saying that the "Monster" wasn't a success? Sure, it had some flamish posts in there, but take a look around ingame. You'll see a hell of a lot of 8/6/2 splashes going around. And most of them are either WF or Halfling such as the 12/6/2 build we posted on the EU forums.

Indeed. Unfortunately, the form of critique these blowhards have been giving involves the following steps: (Taken from a recently closed thread in the ranger forums)
1) Read the build
2) Pay no attention to the builder’s goals. Nor pay any attention to the “guide” aspect of the OP.
3) Insert Cookie Cutter build that doesn’t meet the OP’s criteria.
4) Take at least a dozen pages of flaming to finally start reading the OP’s goals.
5) Posting a build that’s just as “bad”.
6) Make the community a worse place.

Once again, you fail.
Get yer facts right.

QuantumFX

07-20-2009, 06:01 PM

So, you're saying that the "Monster" wasn't a success? Sure, it had some flamish posts in there, but take a look around ingame. You'll see a hell of a lot of 8/6/2 splashes going around.

I see more pure fighter builds popping up.

Once again, you fail.
Get yer facts right.

You first. Contribute something positive to the community for a change.

Yargore

07-20-2009, 06:04 PM

Indeed. Unfortunately, the form of critique these blowhards have been giving involves the following steps: (Taken from a recently closed thread in the ranger forums)
1) Read the build
2) Pay no attention to the builder’s goals. Nor pay any attention to the “guide” aspect of the OP.
3) Insert Cookie Cutter build that doesn’t meet the OP’s criteria.
4) Take at least a dozen pages of flaming to finally start reading the OP’s goals.
5) Posting a build that’s just as “bad”.
6) Make the community a worse place.

I suggest you go back and read that thread. The OPs only goal was to get an as powerful character as possible. It was clearly stated in the OP, but he denied it later when he was proven that his build was not as powerful as he tought it was.

Your extremely biased view on that thread is just pathetic. You are so hell-bent to prove us wrong that you completely fail to see anything from another perspective.
Yes, I'm arrogant. Yes, I'm rude. But that does not mean that I'm wrong.
You're not exactly making the community a better place yourself with your biased ********.

What build is just as "bad"?