Make the Illusionist a Sensible Character Build

[Aspenor]

The suggestion is pretty simple, and it would go a long way in accomplishing the goal of this thread. Currently there are perhaps 2 non-buff illusion spells that are useful in DDO. These are Phantasmal Killer and Hypnotic Pattern.

Develop, implement, and release the shadow illusion spells from the PHB. These include:
Shadow Evocation
Shadow Conjuration
Greater Shadow Evocation
Greater Shadow Conjuration
Shades

They would bring an interesting twist to playing an illusion-focused build, and would bring awesome versatility. The spells are very well done and balanced as written in the PHB.

[stockwizard5]

I have no idea what any of these are but diversity (if useful) = signed

[Aspenor]

I have no idea what any of these are but diversity (if useful) = signed

Shadow Illusions are illusions that are augmented with the "stuff of shadow" from the Plane of Shadow. A shadow conjuration (level 4 spell) can be used to mimic any conjuration of 3rd level and lower, and is 20% quasi-real. As a quick example, a shadow illusion spell used to mimic a Web spell is firstly subject to SR, secondly allows a will save, and finally allows the save vs. web. If the SR check is failed, the spell doesn't work against that target. If the will save fails, the spell functions normally. If the will save is successful, the spell is 20% likely to function normally.

Shadow evocations work the same way but are evocations instead. Illusory fireballs, walls of fire, and cones of cold function the same way but deal partial damage when the will save is successful to disbelieve.

The spells progress in effectiveness as the spell level increases, so the greater variety has a higher percentage quasi-reality. Shades (level 9 spell) can be used to mimic both evocations and conjurations of 8th level and lower, and are 80% quasi-real.

[EinarMal]

Aren't some of those on the Bard spell list as well? That would really help Bard's terrible spell list as well.

[maddmatt70]

I have mixed feelings regarding this request Aspenor: I am with the other posters when they state any variety is good, but I also feel this is very pro sorcerer and really would benefit the sorcerer over the wizard which if anything we don't need in ddo at the moment.

[maddmatt70]

Aren't some of those on the Bard spell list as well? That would really help Bard's terrible spell list as well.

If it were just added as bard spells most definitely signed..

[EinarMal]

If it were just added as bard spells most definitely signed..

Shadow Evocation is listed as a 5th level Bard spell in the d20 srd.

Asp hates bards though so I am sure he won't like your Bard only suggestion :D

[Aspenor]

As a side note for the devs, please keep in mind that for all purposes these spells act as spells of the level of the shadow illusion and not the mimicked spell.

So, for example, a web spell mimicked by shadow conjuration functions as a level 4 spell for purposes of DC's (and spell points spent).

[Aspenor]

I have mixed feelings regarding this request Aspenor: I am with the other posters when they state any variety is good, but I also feel this is very pro sorcerer and really would benefit the sorcerer over the wizard which if anything we don't need in ddo at the moment.
I suppose I hadn't really given it that much thought. My first thought had been that this would benefit wizards most, but upon reflection, you're right in many respects. These spells, in PnP, offer the wizard a limited form of spontaneous casting (since they can prepare one spell and use it to replicate a vast array of spells). However, DDO doesn't have "prepared spellcasting" in the same way that PnP does.

Wizards will, however, have the feats to specialize in schools of magic much easier than a sorcerer. I'm not sure if that benefit balances the benefits these spells would offer a sorcerer.


If it were just added as bard spells most definitely signed..
I don't like the idea of giving something exclusively to bards that should also be available to the standard arcanes. I think bards should be given the option but not exclusively.


Shadow Evocation is listed as a 5th level Bard spell in the d20 srd.

Asp hates bards though so I am sure he won't like your Bard only suggestion :D
/signed :D

[Borror0]

I'm not sure if that benefit balances the benefits these spells would offer a sorcerer.
Depends on many factors. Mostly on how many good spells there are.

Since there are very little level 8 spells, this will mostly benefit sorcerers.

[Scalion]

I definately think it benefits the sorc more (too much even) simply because they can take this spell and add tons of spells to their arsenal that they would not normally get access to. Also their limited feats could all be spent in enchantment and it could improve the DC of their illusional evocation spells. These spells allow a caster to cast spells at a higher level (DC) than they would normally be able to and increase spell from different schools by focusing in a single school of magic. These are things a feat starved sorcerer would love.

I think the idea is good, but it would have to be done with great care.

[Gunga]

I am against any balance in the game, but if the Illusionist could fool Borror0 into believing the illusion of balance, then I'm all for it.

[Borror0]

I am against any balance in the game
Did you ever asked yourself why you're against balance?

[Aesop]

Did you ever asked yourself why you're against balance?

Because you are for balance I assume

[Turial]

I have mixed feelings regarding this request Aspenor: I am with the other posters when they state any variety is good, but I also feel this is very pro sorcerer and really would benefit the sorcerer over the wizard which if anything we don't need in ddo at the moment.

The devs could alter the spell so that it only allows you to make illusions of spells you already had access to or a limited number of spells total so that the advantage to sorcs was down played.

[Aspenor]

Not only would this bring some great versatility, but it would give Turbine a bigger reason to release gnomes!!!!! :D:D

But really, the balancing factor here is the spell resistance roll and the double save mechanic. Spells that normally wouldn't require the SR check will, and monsters would still get a will save to disbelieve that shadow illusion.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Right now, I would settle for them un-nerfing Hypnotic Pattern. :(

Increase the duration to something meaningful again.
And tone down the graphics so it doesn't annoy other players.

But yeah, I'd like to see some more Illusion spells added. I'm assuming we'll get the 9th lvl one. (name? like a mass PK spell....)

[Jendrak]

But yeah, I'd like to see some more Illusion spells added. I'm assuming we'll get the 9th lvl one. (name? like a mass PK spell....)

Weird is the name your looking for.

Now, While im up for adding anythign to DDO to have as much variety as possible you gotta ask. How useful will this be and hows it gonna affect the game long term?

The use will be limited to mainly sorcs that will take these spells to add to their low spell selection and effectivly takeing away the only real advantage to a wizard and honestly they will have very little use to wizzys. Bard's will love them but with it hurting the wizzy/sorc "balance" so much I cant see putting them in.

As for the long term, i think these spelss would end up like a few of the others already on the list (anybody use stinking cloud anymore?). Used at first and then dropped for something "better".

While i would love to see an true Illusionist in game I dont belive this is the way to do it. Now if these were just a part of a spells list for illusion magic they might be a little better but as just 5 new spells id have to say no.

/not signed

[redoubt]

I definately think it benefits the sorc more (too much even) simply because they can take this spell and add tons of spells to their arsenal that they would not normally get access to. Also their limited feats could all be spent in enchantment and it could improve the DC of their illusional evocation spells. These spells allow a caster to cast spells at a higher level (DC) than they would normally be able to and increase spell from different schools by focusing in a single school of magic. These are things a feat starved sorcerer would love.

I think the idea is good, but it would have to be done with great care.

1. Feats spent in SF:Enchantment do not improve spells from the Illusion school.

2. Heighten already allows you to cast spells at higher levels. I cast level 8 webs all the time.

3. A feat starved sorcerer is not really helped by this. I know, I am one. (My sorc is all about enchantment DC. Has both SF feats, spell pen feat and enhancements. Will have second spell pen feat at level 18. No extend, no empower, no mana feats... where would the feats appear from for me to plus up in illusion as well?)

Now, I admit, I don't know a lot about these spells, but logic tells me that they will need very high DC to succeed. That places the advantage to the wizard who has more feats. The counter is that it would add some versatility to the sorcerer.

[redoubt]

Because you are for balance I assume

Because he is Borr0's Agent Smith. :D

[redoubt]

Weird is the name your looking for.

Now, While im up for adding anythign to DDO to have as much variety as possible you gotta ask. How useful will this be and hows it gonna affect the game long term?

The use will be limited to mainly sorcs that will take these spells to add to their low spell selection and effectivly takeing away the only real advantage to a wizard and honestly they will have very little use to wizzys. Bard's will love them but with it hurting the wizzy/sorc "balance" so much I cant see putting them in.

As for the long term, i think these spelss would end up like a few of the others already on the list (anybody use stinking cloud anymore?). Used at first and then dropped for something "better".

While i would love to see an true Illusionist in game I dont belive this is the way to do it. Now if these were just a part of a spells list for illusion magic they might be a little better but as just 5 new spells id have to say no.

/not signed


Funny, I already prefer wizards in my shroud runs, even though I play a sorc... The ability to swap spells has become even more important than it used to be.

My sorc is stretched pretty thin trying to have the key spell for several of the high end quests. It would be great to be able to take ooze puppet for kobold and still swap back to scorching ray the rest of the time. Or to load up the waves debuffs for part 4 and 5 of the shroud without lossing what few offensive spells I have the rest of the time...

The whole idea that wizards and sorcs are not balanced seems silly to me, of course that is probably my personal one-sided view as seen through the limitations of being a capped sorc.

[Aspenor]

Now, I admit, I don't know a lot about these spells, but logic tells me that they will need very high DC to succeed. That places the advantage to the wizard who has more feats. The counter is that it would add some versatility to the sorcerer.

Exactly. Wizards own the DC battle in DDO. Sorcerers that choose these spells will run a high risk that the spells will not work. Wizards using them can increase their versatility even further.

As written, the spells are extremely well balanced. I'm still in favor of them being implemented as written in the PHB.

[MrCow]

Adding these spells makes for an interesting thought... bard with illusory Walls of Fire. :p

[Aspenor]

Adding these spells makes for an interesting thought... bard with illusory Walls of Fire. :p

Exactly. Bards would benefit just as much, if not more.

[Aspenor]

A few more suggestions:

Shadow Binding Level 3 - Will save or be entangled, DC 20 Strength Check to escape.

Illusory Pit Level 6 - Will save or be knocked prone, due to believing you are falling.

Greater Invisibility Level 4 - as invisibility, but can attack and stay invisible.

Solipism Level 7 - Will save or subject believes it alone exists, and takes no actions to defend itself. It takes no actions and is effectively helpless (automatic critical hits).

[Rydin_Dirtay]

Necro'ed thread resurrection.... (you pointed out the thread Aspenor)...some more PnP spells that I think might have some applicability in DDO:

Color Spray

Prismatic Spray <-- in mod9 already? haven't checked.

Mirror Image

Duo-Dimension

In terms of implementation, Mirror Image might not be too bad....but....Duo-Dimension would probably be much more difficult to put in.

Color Spray and Prismatic Spray, are two classic Illusionist spells.

Regarding Sorc's and illusions, my thinking is that the Sorc would not find as much use in an shadow firewall, since, he can conjure up a 100% real firewall anyway. If it were up to me though the whole magic-using class thing in DDO would be different, but that's another topic. :)

Someone mentioned the spell "Weird". Now Weird is truly an awesome spell for the powerful Illusionist. I should get out my 2nd ed Unearthed Arcana book and look up some more of those spells, I'm sure there are some that I'm forgetting. Anyway cool thread, sorry for the necro.

[Aspenor]

Necro'ed thread resurrection.... (you pointed out the thread Aspenor)...some more PnP spells that I think might have some applicability in DDO:

Color Spray

Prismatic Spray <-- in mod9 already? haven't checked.

Mirror Image

Duo-Dimension

In terms of implementation, Mirror Image might not be too bad....but....Duo-Dimension would probably be much more difficult to put in.

Color Spray and Prismatic Spray, are two classic Illusionist spells.

Regarding Sorc's and illusions, my thinking is that the Sorc would not find as much use in an shadow firewall, since, he can conjure up a 100% real firewall anyway. If it were up to me though the whole magic-using class thing in DDO would be different, but that's another topic. :)

Someone mentioned the spell "Weird". Now Weird is truly an awesome spell for the powerful Illusionist. I should get out my 2nd ed Unearthed Arcana book and look up some more of those spells, I'm sure there are some that I'm forgetting. Anyway cool thread, sorry for the necro.
I'm pretty sure Prismatic Spray is an evocation, but I'd like to see GREATER Mirror Image over regular mirror image. Great spell!!

[Rydin_Dirtay]

I'm pretty sure Prismatic Spray is an evocation, but I'd like to see GREATER Mirror Image over regular mirror image. Great spell!!

My AD&D books only have "Mirror Image" (a level 2 spell). I guess Greater Mirror Image was added to D&D later eh?

I can also think of DDO implementations of "Phantasmal Force" as well. Imagine a phantasmal ham, sitting in the Gamblers Den. All those doggies run up to it instead of you.

[spifflove]

/signed

[Cyr]

/signed

[Aspenor]

My AD&D books only have "Mirror Image" (a level 2 spell). I guess Greater Mirror Image was added to D&D later eh?

I can also think of DDO implementations of "Phantasmal Force" as well. Imagine a phantasmal ham, sitting in the Gamblers Den. All those doggies run up to it instead of you.

Greater Mirror Image is a spell in a 3.5 splat book. You gain 1 more mirror image every round up to your maximum number. It helps the spell last longer when you're being attacked.

[Angelus_dead]

An old suggestion of mine:

Illusion summon spells:
Available at every level 1-9, and creates a creature resembling the Summon Monster spell of 1 level higher (or an Orthon for 9). The creature appears blue and translucent to your allies, but monsters react to it normally. It inflicts zero damage but 2x the usual amount of hate, and has 2x hitpoints. Each time an enemy attacks it he rolls a will save against your DC, which causes him to dump the illusionary monster to -50 hate if successful.

[Chaosprism]

The only problem with illusions (and mind affecting spells in general) is that they get generally less effective as the level goes up.

I don't mean they don't do anything , it's just that the number of things IMMUNE to mind effects goes up, and even though the things it can affect are greatly affected it seems D&D doesn't do much to address that.


Right now invisibility works on undead when no illusion spell would work on them at all in the real rules.
(though there is a cleric spell that's called invisibility to undead which masks their life sense)

Having said that I'd like colour spray, mirror image, project image and the staples.


I'd say though that with the degenev brothers display it's possible we'll be seeing psionics and more illusions in the future. (although it could simply be a misdirection ;) )





I like that suggestion angelus, making shadowy copies of random creatures in the game to keep the monsters occupied.

Simple spells like audible glamer, dancing lights might also have a place when it comes to misdirecting your foe tactically.
Magic is supposed to have answers to nearly everything.