Demon Queen Permanent Flag

[Tolero]

Pack your caravan and get ready to head to the desert for your very own permanent raid flag! In Module 9, we've updated the Demo (http://i620.photobucket.com/albums/tt283/itsapuzzle/01101010.jpg?t=1243551705)n Sands raid to remove the repeat flagging mechanic!

In order to get your permanent flag for the Demon Queen raid in Mod 9, you'll need to complete one full run of the prerequisite quests to gather the items and speak with Zawabi to turn them in. Presto! You’re permanently flagged for the pre-raid and raid! This permanent flag will allow you to repeat “Against the Demon Queen” and “Zawabi’s Revenge” without needing to recollect the items each time (after your 3 day raid timer of course).

The Demon Queen is shaking in her chain bikini in anticipation of repeat visitors testing their might against her many armed fury!

[Junts]

Marry me.

Right now.

[EazyWeazy]

Marry me first!!! :D

[daslim1]

Well, it's about time

[Ustice]

Nice change! Great to see!

[Aspenor]

Pack your caravan and get ready to head to the desert for your very own permanent raid flag! In Module 9, we've updated the Demon Sands raid to remove the repeat flagging mechanic!

In order to get your permanent flag for the Demon Queen raid in Mod 9, you'll need to complete one full run of the prerequisite quests to gather the items and speak with Zawabi to turn them in. Presto! You’re permanently flagged for the pre-raid and raid! This permanent flag will allow you to repeat “Against the Demon Queen” and “Zawabi’s Revenge” without needing to recollect the items each time (after your 3 day raid timer of course).

The Demon Queen is shaking in her chain bikini in anticipation of repeat visitors testing their might against her many armed fury!

/cheer

Finally.

[Impaqt]

Clarification please...

WIll we be able to just repeat the Raid? Or will we have to do the 6-man each time before we do the raid?

[Turial]

Hurray! More jerky pouches for all!

Big question is...do you have to perform the flag after mod 9 is live or will you be perma flagged if you happen to be on Against the DQ when mod 9 rolls?

[Turial]

Clarification please...

WIll we be able to just repeat the Raid? Or will we have to do the 6-man each time before we do the raid?

Both, pre and raid.

[Nirvana]

I guess VON6 can't be implemented like this is because it's inside of VON5?

Oh well...

[stockwizard5]

Oh thank god ...

NitPick: It should be all 5 on elite - but whatever.

[Tolero]

Clarification please...

WIll we be able to just repeat the Raid? Or will we have to do the 6-man each time before we do the raid?

You will have to do the 6 man that happens right before the 12 person. (Against the Demon Queen and Zawabi's Revenge respectively)

[Pwesiela]

The Demon Queen is shaking in her chain bikini in anticipation of repeat visitors testing their might against her many armed fury!

Win. Pure. Simple. Win.


:D

Now I may actually run it!

[samho]

Sounds like I can stop posting "Wiz King -> Chains of Flame -> OOB -> ADQ -> DQ raid self sufficient / in progress" LFM after mod 9 ...

A good change indeed, I would expect to see a lot more DQ raid running after mod 9.

[Tolero]

I guess VON6 can't be implemented like this is because it's inside of VON5?

Oh well...

We're hoping to get Velah in line with a permanent flag next :) she's a bit more complicated and it's taking them a little more fiddling with her to make sure we don't break people's characters. Hopefully we can get her into perma-flag position as well

[bobbryan2]

Finally!

Much appreciated.

[Tolero]

Hurray! More jerky pouches for all!

Big question is...do you have to perform the flag after mod 9 is live or will you be perma flagged if you happen to be on Against the DQ when mod 9 rolls?

You can perform it once 9 is live, but if you are say halfway through your flagging and then Mod 9 comes, so long as you haven't turned in your items to Zawabi already, you can just turn your items in once 9 is up and it will count for your permaflag

[Flack]

Great news! Mod 9 keeps looking better and better...

-Flack.

[daslim1]

when did u say we could do this...(date for mod 9...:))

[Fixitosis]

Great news!

[Blazer]

when did u say we could do this...(date for mod 9...:))

Heh, nice try. :)

Thanks Tolero, a nice bit of news before the weekend. Looks like I'll spend a part of the upcoming weekend getting one set of items on all my characters and then just holding them until Mod 9.

[Hendrik]

You can perform it once 9 is live, but if you are say halfway through your flagging and then Mod 9 comes, so long as you haven't turned in your items to Zawabi already, you can just turn your items in once 9 is up and it will count for your permaflag

Wonderful news!


Thank you DEVS!

[Deathseeker]

GREAT JOB! This is a great example of Turbine listening to the community and reacting to feedback. Really a big win here for the dev team. Woot!

This also gives us lots of incentive to go out and vote in the next round!

[Strype.McClaine]

Pack your caravan and get ready to head to the desert for your very own permanent raid flag! In Module 9, we've updated the Demon Sands raid to remove the repeat flagging mechanic!

In order to get your permanent flag for the Demon Queen raid in Mod 9, you'll need to complete one full run of the prerequisite quests to gather the items and speak with Zawabi to turn them in. Presto! You’re permanently flagged for the pre-raid and raid! This permanent flag will allow you to repeat “Against the Demon Queen” and “Zawabi’s Revenge” without needing to recollect the items each time (after your 3 day raid timer of course).

The Demon Queen is shaking in her chain bikini in anticipation of repeat visitors testing their might against her many armed fury!

I think I love you.

[ArkoHighStar]

well done I like chainmail bikini's:D

[underlordone]

that is the best news I herd yet you rock

[Aaxeyu]

Thank you so much for this change!

[Irongutz2000]

Very nice!

[Kraldor]

It's about time!

[KoboldKiller]

Ummm, you do realize it was mentioned as a change for MOD 9 right? You know the MOD that is supposed to happen soon. The MOD that will come out as soon as gas prices drop below $1.50 again. The MOD that will come out after 3 more MODs are released for LoTRO. The MOD that we have been anticipating for awhile now and have given up hope.


Yes I'm cranky deal with it.

[HumanJHawkins]

<cut>permanent raid flag!<cut>


Da bomb = Tolero. Wootzor!

[moops]

Tytyty :)

[BigBadBarry]

Congratulations on an excellent decision and excellent change!

Well done team!

[Tarrant]

I knew I should've insisted I post the change... I want some marriage offers too!

[spyderwolf]

very cool! now rick roll the forums more often and everyhting will be ok :)

[Hendrik]

I knew I should've insisted I post the change... I want some marriage offers too!

Careful, Yaga might hear you.....


:eek:

[Memnir]

Everything said to date.
.
.
.
.
......http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn12/EnPsyane/applause.gif
.
.

[Fattiest]

The lord said,

Fatty/Lardarss, you can now quit running your fat arss around the desert and enjoy the sun for once.

Woot Woot,,,,,this is great news

[DagazUlf]

Just to balance my harsh critique of "deeds not words" from an earlier thread...

THANK YOU VERY MUCH! :)

[vtecfiend99]

Wow, this is somethign we have been asking for for a LONG time. I am glad they found the time to do it. Great news.

[drachine]

man, i have been through An Offering of Blood, Chains of Flame, and Chamber of Raiyum enough times to make my head spin looking for:

Bracers of the Demon's Consort
Bramble-Casters
Dustless Boots
Green Blade
Pouch of Jerky
Seal of the Earth
Torc of Prince Rayium-de II

so far i have 2-3 items per toon that i am still looking to get. so happy this is happening. even if we have to wait a while on mod 9.

good job.

[miceelf88]

Thank goodness. That is very good news.

Now, if the lag on thelanis was reduced enough for us to be actually able to run the quests......

[Strype.McClaine]

I knew I should've insisted I post the change... I want some marriage offers too!

Slops: This should have been done along time ago...
Props: I now love you too.

DQ, still has great loot

[Kalari]

*Does happy dance woot* Now I can run this quest again regularly ^_^

K now I go cooks :)

[Gum]

WOOT! /Celebrate

Thank you ;)

[Guildmaster_Kadish]

Thanks for the info Tolero! As Flack said...


Great news! Mod 9 keeps looking better and better...

Now if only it would start to look a little closer! :D

[Tendare]

All I can say is TY TY TY TY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[akla_thornfist]

wow this is great news now maybe i will run it more,

[boldarblood]

Whats the old saying, better late than never.

With this change I hope to see an incease of groups running DQ on Khyber. I hated the flagging for this raid and have not run it a ton.

[Cinwulf]

Can't you just look at the raid counter, and flag thos who have already completed it?

[DragoonPenguin]

cool now un**** SOS

[maddmatt70]

Any chance you will be upgrading the raid loot and/or adding new loot to the DQ raid. There is no loot I want in there. You could add the 4th item for the tharnes set and glaciation sets or something of that nature.

[Dark_Helmet]

Pack your caravan and get ready to head to the desert for your very own permanent raid flag! In Module 9, we've updated the Demon Sands raid to remove the repeat flagging mechanic!

In order to get your permanent flag for the Demon Queen raid in Mod 9, you'll need to complete one full run of the prerequisite quests to gather the items and speak with Zawabi to turn them in. Presto! You’re permanently flagged for the pre-raid and raid! This permanent flag will allow you to repeat “Against the Demon Queen” and “Zawabi’s Revenge” without needing to recollect the items each time (after your 3 day raid timer of course).

The Demon Queen is shaking in her chain bikini in anticipation of repeat visitors testing their might against her many armed fury!

Boo! The lazy ass people won yet again and got an easy button (http://www.staples.com/sbd/cre/marketing/easybutton/download.html)! Why not just pay someone to play your account for you???

Okay, someone had to rain on the above parade of overwhelming goodwill. Heck, Memnir even approved! :D

[Torosar]

There is no loot I want in there.

You can assign me your Torcs!

[Irongutz2000]

You can assign me your Torcs!

Ya no kidding, Torcs, bramble casters, bracers an jerky !

[Hence]

Sorry, too late. Should have done this two years ago.

[maddmatt70]

You can assign me your Torcs!

I just drank a mana pot so problem solved... The torc is the most overrated item ever. I like it on a cc bard for the greater spell pen 6 and that is it..

[Rindalathar]

The asking was done and the receiving was had.

Booyah on this, Turbine!!!


Strange thing though, I could have sworn they categorically stated in a DevChat on DDOcast awhile back that this was not happening.

O times they are achangin'!!

[maddmatt70]

Ya no kidding, Torcs, bramble casters, bracers an jerky !

Bramble caster meh - stoneskin grows on trees these days.. Jerky totally meh they are only greater false life and there are about 3 other better trinkets for every build type, hams what have you. Bracers shrug waste of a slot..

[Irongutz2000]

Bramble caster meh - stoneskin grows on trees these days.. Jerky totally meh they are only greater false life and there are about 3 other better trinkets for every build type, hams what have you. Bracers shrug waste of a slot..

Well don't run the raid then, some ppl sheesh :p

[DoctorWhofan]

THere IS a light at the end of the tunnel!! Best news since the Pally PrEs/endcaps!

[maddmatt70]

Well don't run the raid then, some ppl sheesh :p

If they want us to do the raid they also should improve the loot...

[stalksdeath]

This is pretty funny... i have never seen a post like this... admittedly , i dont sit here and read everything but.... honestly.... c'mon guys.. where's the nay-sayers, the heavily opinionated peeps in contrary to whatever they read, the pessimism? It's like i have a hole inside me now....
hmmm... well, here goes....

*THIS IS TOTAL ****!! THIS IS JUST ANOTHER WAY TURBINE IS TRYING TO SCREW US!!! WAY TO TAKE OUR ATTENTION OFF OF MOD 9 NOT BEING HERE YET!!! THEY PROBABLY REMOVED ALL THE GOOD RAID LOOT!! BBAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!*

lol sorry i hadda

but seriously.. woot! ;D

[stalksdeath]

If they want us to do the raid they also should improve the loot...

lmao norg.. i missed YOUR post apparently :P

Yer such a MEAN little girl! what you want for that w/p rapier? Some plat? :D

[Irongutz2000]

If they want us to do the raid they also should improve the loot...

Ummm.... I think alot of ppl will run it, with the loot the way it is.

[maddmatt70]

lmao norg.. i missed YOUR post apparently :P

you grumpy little girl! what you want for that w/p rapier? Some plat? :D

I will never give you that rapier not ever not for all of your chars loot except mantra..

I would run DQ right now, but I don't. The flagging change would help make it more appealing, but wouldn't change the reason why I don't run it now (I don't want any of the loot).

Note: I do just fine not running it right now and will be just fine not running it in the future.

[Hendrik]

Ummm.... I think alot of ppl will run it, with the loot the way it is.


Yea.

The loot, many things at least, is STILL good at cap.

[Junts]

If they want us to do the raid they also should improve the loot...




yeah cause the torq, staff, gloves, ring, they all suck; there's actually, numerically, more good loot in the queen than in the titan, its just that the titan's good items are better.

[Irongutz2000]

yeah cause the torq, staff, gloves, ring, they all suck; there's actually, numerically, more good loot in the queen than in the titan, its just that the titan's good items are better.

An the kopesh is sick looking!

[Junts]

An the kopesh is sick looking!

Khopesh is an excellent portal beater, too

[Enir]

And there was great rejoicing ..... yaaay ..

[maddmatt70]

yeah cause the torq, staff, gloves, ring, they all suck; there's actually, numerically, more good loot in the queen than in the titan, its just that the titan's good items are better.

Yes, exactly the titan's top 3 items can't be found anywhere else and you could make the argument are 'must have' items for several character builds. You could even make the argument that the boots in the dragonraid are more must have depending on future content so the dragon raid is more worth grinding them for despite the crappy flagging and old quests then the dq raid with a permanent flag.

[Memnir]

I knew I should've insisted I post the change... I want some marriage offers too!I put forth a marriage proposal based on the following condition...

If we save our flagging items to hand in... how long should we wait to turn them in again? I mean, specifically, as in how many days... so there is no room for misinterpretation.

[Eudimio]

Any chance you will be upgrading the raid loot and/or adding new loot to the DQ raid. There is no loot I want in there. You could add the 4th item for the tharnes set and glaciation sets or something of that nature.

On my main (a rogue), i use:

Jerky for poison neutralization (mostly in parts 4&5 of the shroud) and a little hp regen.
Seal when I want undispellable barkskin and don't feel like being madstoned. (One mineral item and two weapons, so stoneskin clicky isn't used much.) It also stops most acid damage (yes, even with only resist 10).
Staff for occasional Ray of Enfeeblement, fireball when clerics get webbed or blasting walls in Prey, and luck bonus when selling or maxing out rogue skills. Globe because it's fun!

Casters, clerics, and bards can't find a better neck item then the Torc.
I generally wear the Demon Scale armor on my barbarian.
Bramble casters rock.

Happy Hunting.

[maddmatt70]

On my main (a rogue), i use:

Jerky for poison neutralization (mostly in parts 4&5 of the shroud) and a little hp regen.

I just drank a neut pot and ate a ham so problem solved.



Seal when I want undispellable barkskin and don't feel like being madstoned. (One mineral item and two weapons, so stoneskin clicky isn't used much.) It also stops most acid damage (yes, even with only resist 10).

+4 for dt armor undispellabel barkskin is better. You can make a godzillion shroud stoneskin clickies..


Staff for occasional Ray of Enfeeblement, fireball when clerics get webbed or blasting walls in Prey, and luck bonus when selling or maxing out rogue skills. Globe because it's fun!

You can buy the staff with true seeing on it that gives +5 to skills. Really the staff is a waste of a slot.


Casters, clerics, and bards can't find a better neck item then the Torc.


most overrated item in the game.. I drank a mana pot whoopie look at there my mana is back. Greater spell pen 6 already comes in general raid loot weapons. In mod 9 who knows what we will get.



I generally wear the Demon Scale armor on my barbarian.



Get off your butt and farm the Sorjek quests for DT armor its far better when used with a bloodstone..

In conclusion, do the new raids Nuckles - they give better loot..

[Junts]

Yes, exactly the titan's top 3 items can't be found anywhere else and you could make the argument are 'must have' items for several character builds. You could even make the argument that the boots in the dragonraid are more must have depending on future content so the dragon raid is more worth grinding them for despite the crappy flagging and old quests then the dq raid with a permanent flag.

the demon queen raidloot is set up in a way that I wish had been emulated more; it has incredibly unique and powerful items, but very little people feel obligated to spam run the raid every 3 days for.

DQ raidloot is extremely powerful situationally and even useful at endgame, for example:

the globe from the staff is rather useful in the hound, since it blocks the bees

The ray from the staff is considered higher than level 4; it works on suulomades even though regular ray of enfeeble does not, and debuffing suulomades with it + waves of exhaustion (as a spell pen specced bard or caster) is like giving the entire raid group +6 or so armor class (3 from the waves, and 3-6 ac from the ray of enfeeblement, due to his decreased to-hit). as someone who routinely tanks vod, the difference between a debuffed and non-debuffed suulomades is extraordinary. Yesterday a friend's 67 ac tank was able to tank vod rather flawlessly due to the massive change in to-hit from the debuffs.

the torq is unparraleled and would be excellent on your healing specced bard; its proc rate is over 5%, and its rather easy in many quests for a cleric/bard who is healing specced to block w/stoneskin on, let mobs hit them and regen more sp than it costs to heal the damage: my guild has a cleric who can do this with vod orthons and gain back more sp than he loses!

bramble casters are situationally one of the most powerful items in the game, especially for casters, but also for any lower-ac type build that find itself being targetted by archers a lot.

some of the other items that used to be great (belt buckle, goggles) have been obsoleted, but the queen has excellent loot for anyone who wants to increase their character's flexibility and effectiveness.

[QuintonReece]

Thanks for listening and changing this.

Koodos for Turbine!

(and ignore all the little people who dont know how to do anything but complain and be negative, even in the face of good news)

[maddmatt70]

Thanks for listening and changing this.

Koodos for Turbine!

(and ignore all the little people who dont know how to do anything but complain and be negative, even in the face of good news)

Thanks for the compliment. If they want to give me a reason to run the quest they should because this isn't a good enough reason..

[Eudimio]

I just drank a neut pot and ate a ham so problem solved.


+4 for dt armor undispellabel barkskin is better. You can make a godzillion shroud stoneskin clickies..

You can buy the staff with true seeing on it that gives +5 to skills. Really the staff is a waste of a slot.


most overrated item in the game.. I drank a mana pot whoopie look at there my mana is back. Greater spell pen 6 already comes in general raid loot weapons. In mod 9 who knows what we will get.



Get off your butt and farm the Sorjek quests for DT armor its far better when used with a bloodstone..

In conclusion, do the new raids Nuckles - they give better loot..

Okay,

So 7 minutes go by, you're still fighting Harry, you're madstoned, and now you're poisoned. Oh, and your ham ran out 6 minutes ago.

Please tell me you wouldn't consider +4 natural armor on your DT armor!

Staff of the seer doesn't stack with anything. Useless. And the staff doesn't waste a slot, it's a weapon.

Blah! Alt #5 shouldn't be wasting his time in SOS, he should be getting me large devil scales. But yeah, I shouldn't be so lazy about getting him a bloodstone.

And finally, I use my hands to swing weapons, bard, cleric, and wizard. Except alt #2, he holds a +3 wis weapon in one hand, and a sup pot 6 in the other.

But really, what necklaces and rings do you wear?

[Eudimio]

Khopesh is an excellent portal beater, too

No, it isn't.

It does EXACTLY the same damage as an Adoryn's Malice. Unless you are a fighter with weapon specialization or for some reason you are in a group that has a rogue with wrack construct 3.

And even then, a triple positive weapon does much more damage.

[QuantumFX]

Pack your caravan and get ready to head to the desert for your very own permanent raid flag! In Module 9, we've updated the Demon Sands raid to remove the repeat flagging mechanic!

WOOT!


The Demon Queen is shaking in her chain bikini in anticipation

I see Lailat is now DDO's very own Carmen Electra...

[maddmatt70]

Okay,

So 7 minutes go by, you're still fighting Harry, you're madstoned, and now you're poisoned. Oh, and your ham ran out 6 minutes ago.

Please tell me you wouldn't consider +4 natural armor on your DT armor!

Staff of the seer doesn't stack with anything. Useless. And the staff doesn't waste a slot, it's a weapon.

Blah! Alt #5 shouldn't be wasting his time in SOS, he should be getting me large devil scales. But yeah, I shouldn't be so lazy about getting him a bloodstone.

And finally, I use my hands to swing weapons, bard, cleric, and wizard. Except alt #2, he holds a +3 wis weapon in one hand, and a sup pot 6 in the other.

But really, what necklaces and rings do you wear?

Norg actually has the ring which he has from god knows when long long long ago. He has not worn it in quite sometime. I still have it on him for a third stoneskin clicky lol but probably should put it in the bank. (he will wear the chattering ring and +6 con ring mostly) I have not bothered farming it I like items that increase saves, stats, ac, or are guards that do damage or other effects, and I sometimes will wear items that increase skills on certain characters like a +6 cha skill item from the shroud. Edit: I forgot on certain characters I have thought about getting the perma 20 blur with displacement clickies from the shroud..

I have the necklace on my healing bard and on an old cleric. I rarely wear the necklace on my bard its just a waste of time to get aggro and shield block while getting attacked when I can just drink a mana pot. I do like wearing the necklace when I am ccing at times but always have the bracers of glacier equipped which is only 1 less spell pen. If I didn't have the necklace I can just go with a +3 ability score weapon and g spell pen weapon or just go with the bracers of glacers which I have on all my characters. Item slots are for the most part limited so swapping or trying to fit this item in is just inefficient and a waste..

[Wizzly_Bear]

spiffy, thank you very much :D

[adamkatt]

How long have we asked for this? 2 years? Way to go devs! Your speed is BLINDING!

[Eudimio]

Thanks for listening and changing this.

Koodos for Turbine!

(and ignore all the little people who dont know how to do anything but complain and be negative, even in the face of good news)

Don't hate on Norg. He's an excellent player that has a perfectly valid opinion that he doesn't want any loot in there.

I don't want any loot in there either (okay, still trying for one torc).

Here's the rub: That raid has had more adjustments to it than any other. And it could easily be scaled higher to justify better loot.

[stalksdeath]

No, it isn't.

It does EXACTLY the same damage as an Adoryn's Malice. Unless you are a fighter with weapon specialization or for some reason you are in a group that has a rogue with wrack construct 3.

And even then, a triple positive weapon does much more damage.

Adoryns doesnt heal you tho ;)

[Samadhi]

This may be one of the coolest announcements in a long, long time.

[stalksdeath]

Just throwing this out there....

Anyone who thinks 2 stats on an item (belt) isnt powerful in its own right.... haha
add to that some fear immun, little extra damage with roaring... you again have an item that is up there with the best of the named lootz!
I actually use the thing on all my top end toons....
And yeah yeah i know i suk :(
but still! ;)

[Angelus_dead]

This permanent flag will allow you to repeat “Against the Demon Queen” and “Zawabi’s Revenge” without needing to recollect the items each time (after your 3 day raid timer of course).
This change will reduce the number of players visiting Chains of Flame, Tomb of the Wizard-King, and Offering of Blood.

To compensate, I suggest adjusting the rewards from those quests. Each time you turn in the quest rewards, there is a percent chance you are offered:
1. Firestorm Greaves (Chains of Flame)
2. Bloodstone (wizard king)
3. Spectral Gloves / Ancient Vulkoriim Dagger

The current loot layout is perverse, in that some of the better items from that area are acquired by farming easy outside chests, rather than attacking big elaborate quests.

[Eudimio]

Adoryns doesnt heal you tho ;)

Who takes damage when beating on the portals?

[maddmatt70]

This change will reduce the number of players visiting Chains of Flame, Tomb of the Wizard-King, and Offering of Blood.

To compensate, I suggest adjusting the rewards from those quests. Each time you turn in the quest rewards, there is a percent chance you are offered:
1. Firestorm Greaves (Chains of Flame)
2. Bloodstone (wizard king)
3. Spectral Gloves / Ancient Vulkoriim Dagger

The current loot layout is perverse, in that some of the better items from that area are acquired by farming easy outside chests, rather than attacking big elaborate quests.

Great suggestion Angelus.. That would get me running the DQ quests for sure..

[Voalkrynn2]

Not to shabby!

[Eudimio]

Just throwing this out there....

Anyone who thinks 2 stats on an item (belt) isnt powerful in its own right.... haha
add to that some fear immun, little extra damage with roaring... you again have an item that is up there with the best of the named lootz!
I actually use the thing on all my top end toons....
And yeah yeah i know i suk :(
but still! ;)

If +4 con and +4 strength are good enough for you at endgame, please stay out of melee.

I wear the buckle on my cleric.
But I also have:
+6 con on my +3 wis weapon.
Divine power when I melee.

It can easily be replace by a shroud negative/immunity item.

[Kalari]

I dunno Id still make offering of blood runs just for the gloves for my girls and maybe even do Raiyum runs for nostalgia but I hate that darn fire gnoll quest unless im running with friends who joke around during it its really a pain in the butt to me and out of the 3 will look forward to most not having to re run.

[Riggs]

I will pay for someones wedding.

Awesome change.

[QuintonReece]

Don't hate on Norg. He's an excellent player that has a perfectly valid opinion that he doesn't want any loot in there.

I don't want any loot in there either (okay, still trying for one torc).

Here's the rub: That raid has had more adjustments to it than any other. And it could easily be scaled higher to justify better loot.

I imagine Norg can defend himself if he feels the need.

My point is that there is no need to chime in and complain about raid loot when this post is to address the new flagging change. This is something people have asked for and finally gotten. It's positive news.

If someone wants to complain then go elsewhere and open a thread on a new subject about this raid. If you dont want to run it then you have no need to post on this thread. Geesh! Go create a thread to tell us how many quests and raids you dont want to run, that way we can ignore it.

This thread is not about the LOOT!

And just to address your topic.... why scale loot? That's what higher level quests and raids are for. What next? You don't run Butcher's Path regularly when you are level 16 do you??? No. You run it at the appropriate level(or for favor) then move on to higher stuff. Should we scale the difficulty xp and loot for all low level quests just because we are higher level...... NO. Same for Raids!

NOW, back to the TOPIC AT HAND.... Thanks again for this change Turbine!

[Vizzini]

Your mistaken on a few things..

1. You need to Also Drink a Rem Disease Pot to get the effect of the Jerky :p

2. Your thinking of Staff of the Seer, We're referring to the 25 charges of Various spells which is extremely useful in certain circumstances.

3. I've never seen any other item in the game that gives GREATER Spell Pen 6 maybe you can point me int he direction please?





I just drank a neut pot and ate a ham so problem solved.


+4 for dt armor undispellabel barkskin is better. You can make a godzillion shroud stoneskin clickies..

You can buy the staff with true seeing on it that gives +5 to skills. Really the staff is a waste of a slot.


most overrated item in the game.. I drank a mana pot whoopie look at there my mana is back. Greater spell pen 6 already comes in general raid loot weapons. In mod 9 who knows what we will get.



Get off your butt and farm the Sorjek quests for DT armor its far better when used with a bloodstone..

In conclusion, do the new raids Nuckles - they give better loot..

[Vizzini]

Who takes damage when beating on the portals?

Someone who uses Vicious in their offhand?

[QuintonReece]

Who takes damage when beating on the portals?

Me, when I'm supposed to be spending time with the wife!

[Eudimio]

I imagine Norg can defend himself if he feels the need.

My point is that there is no need to chime in and complain about raid loot when this post is to address the new flagging change. This is something people have asked for and finally gotten. It's positive news.

If someone wants to complain then go elsewhere and open a thread on a new subject about this raid. If you dont want to run it then you have no need to post on this thread. Geesh! Go create a thread to tell us how many quests and raids you dont want to run, that way we can ignore it.

This thread is not about the LOOT!

And just to address your topic.... why scale loot? That's what higher level quests and raids are for. What next? You don't run Butcher's Path regularly when you are level 16 do you??? No. You run it at the appropriate level(or for favor) then move on to higher stuff. Should we scale the difficulty xp and loot for all low level quests just because we are higher level...... NO. Same for Raids!

NOW, back to the TOPIC AT HAND.... Thanks again for this change Turbine!

Quinton,

Mod 9 also brings the SECOND loot upgrade for The Abbot raid. But for me, it's not about the loot. It's about having a whole bunch of fun stuff to do. And since we're not getting enough of that at endgame, why not recycle and retool some of the old raids?

I just want a better game. What about you?

[stalksdeath]

me, When I'm Supposed To Be Spending Time With The Wife!

Rofl

[Vizzini]

Thank you!! So Glad someone took the time to address that fact, this is not about end game stuff persay.. some people don't run 9 shrouds a week farming for ingredients, and some people don't power level to 16 in a week..

Exactly what you said, it's more that albeit delayed Turbine listened to the people and came through... Thanks Tolero!




This thread is not about the LOOT!

And just to address your topic.... why scale loot? That's what higher level quests and raids are for. What next? You don't run Butcher's Path regularly when you are level 16 do you??? No. You run it at the appropriate level(or for favor) then move on to higher stuff. Should we scale the difficulty xp and loot for all low level quests just because we are higher level...... NO. Same for Raids!

NOW, back to the TOPIC AT HAND.... Thanks again for this change Turbine!

[Eudimio]

Someone who uses Vicious in their offhand?

Yes!

[stalksdeath]

If +4 con and +4 strength are good enough for you at endgame, please stay out of melee.



Hahaha totally will do! :P

[Noctus]

Woot!


and


About time.

[Hobgoblin]

all i can say on this is belvic is either going to be very very happy at this or very very ticked off lol

[kingfisher]

nice job yall. kudos for listening to the players on this one.

[Bronko]

Just... Wow!

This is a long-anticipated and very welcome change. Thank you so much for listening to the requests of the player base in addressing this issue!!! :D

[Borror0]

Wait. Weren't you guys supposed to not return and change old content? :D

Thanks for listening to feedback. :)

[Hafeal]

Hallelujah!

Thank you for your tacit acknowledgment of this request from your player base! :D

[poonce]

Thanks for the compliment. If they want to give me a reason to run the quest they should because this isn't a good enough reason..

Who cares about you? really? go kiss yourself in the Mirror, and then cry because it really didnt end up satisfying your needs . .

[Fennario]

3. I've never seen any other item in the game that gives GREATER Spell Pen 6 maybe you can point me int he direction please?

You can get greater spell pen 6 on a named robe if you beat the Abbot and upgrade an emerald claw trinket.

You can get greater spell pen 8 on dt armor with a lucky sovereign rune.

That's all I can think of. :)

[Gunga]

Cool. I'll start running it.

[BelVic]

all i can say on this is belvic is either going to be very very happy at this or very very ticked off lol

30 mins instead of 1.5-2 hrs make me happy. Can do it more often ( almost every my character can have some usefull stuff from there) and quicker.
At least while running pre-quests I made enough supply of spectral gloves for all my characters.

[Oreg]

Awesome news.

[Junts]

You can get greater spell pen 6 on a named robe if you beat the Abbot and upgrade an emerald claw trinket.

You can get greater spell pen 8 on dt armor with a lucky sovereign rune.

That's all I can think of. :)

gsp6 drops on random weapons as well


however, the torq is still awesome

[CSFurious]

this is the type of change that makes me like to play this game in my free time

thank you very much

[cardmj1]

Thank you Devs!

[Giselle]

This is swell! Thanks to you guys! :D

[Hakushi]

Wow awesome news, thank you Tolero for this, you made my day. :D The DQ is my least run raid because I hate the constant reflagging. I saw you are also working on a permanent flag for Vault of Night, awesome news there too, the dragon is my second raid I've run the less. Thank you so much for taking this into consideration.


the globe from the staff is rather useful in the hound, since it blocks the bees

Not only the globe block the bees, but you can also cast the spells in the staff while having the bees on yourself. Just for this, the staff becomes a much better item. Also the ray of enfeeblement from the staff is a stonger version than the spell.

[Desteria]

I LOVE YOU !!!!!!!!

I'll actrully go back to running the DQ now, and proably bother to actuyl flag my newer chars.....

[Sirea]

Pack your caravan and get ready to head to the desert for your very own permanent raid flag! In Module 9, we've updated the Demon Sands raid to remove the repeat flagging mechanic!

In order to get your permanent flag for the Demon Queen raid in Mod 9, you'll need to complete one full run of the prerequisite quests to gather the items and speak with Zawabi to turn them in. Presto! You’re permanently flagged for the pre-raid and raid! This permanent flag will allow you to repeat “Against the Demon Queen” and “Zawabi’s Revenge” without needing to recollect the items each time (after your 3 day raid timer of course).

The Demon Queen is shaking in her chain bikini in anticipation of repeat visitors testing their might against her many armed fury!

*dies*

This is the best news ever.

I'll still solo Wiz-king on my wizard every now and again for nostalgia purposes :D

[yk49]

hmm... its nice, its nice... but then what about stealer of souls?

[maddmatt70]

I imagine Norg can defend himself if he feels the need.

My point is that there is no need to chime in and complain about raid loot when this post is to address the new flagging change. This is something people have asked for and finally gotten. It's positive news.

If someone wants to complain then go elsewhere and open a thread on a new subject about this raid. If you dont want to run it then you have no need to post on this thread. Geesh! Go create a thread to tell us how many quests and raids you dont want to run, that way we can ignore it.

This thread is not about the LOOT!

And just to address your topic.... why scale loot? That's what higher level quests and raids are for. What next? You don't run Butcher's Path regularly when you are level 16 do you??? No. You run it at the appropriate level(or for favor) then move on to higher stuff. Should we scale the difficulty xp and loot for all low level quests just because we are higher level...... NO. Same for Raids!

NOW, back to the TOPIC AT HAND.... Thanks again for this change Turbine!

The flagging change is absolutely about encouraging people to run old content, but if there is no reason to run old content people will not run old content. I am not going back to waterworks to run that quest either with my capped characters even if they allow me to skip the first two parts of the quest and go directly to parts 3 and 4. This situation is no different. DQ will stay dead and buried. I actually wouldn't mind it if they put the bloodstone, spectral gloves, and firestorm greaves in the actual raid. Those items are all more valuable then anything currently in the raid itself.

[QuintonReece]

The flagging change is absolutely about encouraging people to run old content, We disagree here, its about responding to the request of the players. Again,.. thanks to Turbine.but if there is no reason to run old content people will not run old content. Ummm... yeah.I am not going back to waterworks to run that quest either with my capped characters even if they allow me to skip the first two parts of the quest and go directly to parts 3 and 4. This situation is no different. Not getting your comparison with a non-flagged quest series vs. DQ(flagged) series. DQ will stay dead and buried. Wrong again,... look at the responses on this thread for proof. More will run it. I actually wouldn't mind it if they put the bloodstone, spectral gloves, and firestorm greaves in the actual raid. Those items are all more valuable then anything currently in the raid itself.Maybe more valuable if you are judging by rareness, but not necessarily true of utility.

Sorry but you seem to be in the extreme minority on your opinions here.

[Boneyard]

Pack your caravan and get ready to head to the desert for your very own permanent raid flag! In Module 9, we've updated the Demon Sands raid to remove the repeat flagging mechanic!

In order to get your permanent flag for the Demon Queen raid in Mod 9, you'll need to complete one full run of the prerequisite quests to gather the items and speak with Zawabi to turn them in. Presto! You’re permanently flagged for the pre-raid and raid! This permanent flag will allow you to repeat “Against the Demon Queen” and “Zawabi’s Revenge” without needing to recollect the items each time (after your 3 day raid timer of course).

The Demon Queen is shaking in her chain bikini in anticipation of repeat visitors testing their might against her many armed fury!

I take it this is our victory lap over Naughty Dog, or is there more to come?

[thatguy]

Great news! Mod 9 keeps looking better and better...

-Flack.

It sure does, it would be even better if it was out already. The wait continues...

[Strakeln]

The flagging change is absolutely about encouraging people to run old content, but if there is no reason to run old content people will not run old content. I am not going back to waterworks to run that quest either with my capped characters even if they allow me to skip the first two parts of the quest and go directly to parts 3 and 4. This situation is no different. DQ will stay dead and buried. I actually wouldn't mind it if they put the bloodstone, spectral gloves, and firestorm greaves in the actual raid. Those items are all more valuable then anything currently in the raid itself.Haven't read the entire discussion regarding the loot, but I have to agree with Norg here. There are only a couple of items that haven't been made obsolete by other loot.

Jerky: value reduced by non-stacking shroud effects
Goggles: replaced by VoD goggles
Ring: value reduced due to abundance of SS clickies
Greenblade: value reduced by shroud 1.0x superior lores and shroud weaps
Cloak: replaced by shroud smoke cloak
Torq: value reduced by shroud items... still better for SP regen

That said, I'll be running DQ a lot more often, simply because I like both the pre-raid and the raid but have generally shied away from flagging due to finding chains long and boring.

[Angelus_dead]

Greenblade: value reduced by shroud 1.0x superior lores and shroud weaps
Actually it's Skiver from Black Mausoleum which does everything Greenblade does, and also grants 200 spellpoints. (And the pages are tradeable)

[shabam]

Awesome to hear that tolero, i know ppl will run that alot more now for sure!

[maddmatt70]

Sorry but you seem to be in the extreme minority on your opinions here.

I doubt I am in the minority when it comes to improving dq loot. People will not be incentivized to run this quest. This whole discussion mind you is while the level cap is 16 when these changes are made the level cap will be 20 and the raid loot will be that much worse. They have improved the Abbot raid loot already and are talking about improving it more in the post by Eladrin on the Abbot Raid. There is definitely precedence for improving raid loot. I will be busy running the new raid and quests, the shroud, abbot, sorjek quests, and will perhaps fit in a titan or reaver here or there so running a dq raid for substandard loot doesn't seem worthwhile. Will you be doing anything different honestly?

[Strakeln]

Actually it's Skiver from Black Mausoleum which does everything Greenblade does, and also grants 200 spellpoints. (And the pages are tradeable)IMO Skiver has been replaced by shroud items.

While I agree that the utility of catch-all lore items is fantastic, shroud "super-superior" lore (+1.0 to crit mult, compared to the +0.25 of greater arcane lore :eek:) really overtakes that utility in a hurry.

[Angelus_dead]

shroud "super-superior" lore (+1.0 to crit mult, compared to the +0.25 of greater arcane lore :eek:) really overtakes that utility in a hurry.
What's the recipe for that??

[muffinlad]

Well done, this is a good change.

I can still fit Greenblade, Staff and torc on most of my toons.....and the time to get these now will be much less than getting a skyver or 4 different weapons from Shroud.

muffinkills

[vtecfiend99]

What's the recipe for that??

lol I was thinking the same thing

[sjwalker1973]

YES! No more mindless speed runs through offering of blood, chains of flame and Rayum. YES!

Wish they would do the same for Velah.

[Borror0]

Wish they would do the same for Velah.
Reading (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?&postid=2104961#post2104961) does not hurt.

[sephiroth1084]

Sweet!

While I'll miss those 5AM speed-flagging runs with Val and/or Arcanecannon, it'll be nice to be able to run this with more than one character and a little more frequently.

I'll be even happier when you guys manage to work the VoN series in to the NWO so that I can run it more than once on my characters that are in the level range.

[The_Phenx]

Great THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!!!!

Idea to toss your way.

How about dumping a few unique items in some of the flagging and non flagging quests....or someting to keep folks running them.

Blood already has the spectral gloves for example...First thing that comes to mind

Make the antique token rewards seriously rediculous (the way gianthold has taps etc)...and put say 100+ tokens in the final chests of all desert quests. Fix a few birds with a couple stones.

Oh and to the naysayers,,, the boots are great.. jerkey is still great... the kopeshs are unique and cool...the cloak is still nice for solo content... dq has some very nice loot.

[BigBadBarry]

... but I have to agree with Norg here. There are only a couple of items that haven't been made obsolete by other loot.


Whilst it's true that the power gamers and very experienced will find that this change is redundant like the loot is for them...but it's actually not all about you :)

This is a great change for casual players and new players who will find that the DQ loot on their level appopriate characters very useful. As Strake notes above at some point these items are and were very useful but some can be replaced upon.

I would suggest that the number of characters out there that could use and find the Green Blade useful would far outway the number of people now running Litany for pages or Tor for blue scales.

The time for grinding these two quests is gone for new players.

This IS a good change for the overall community at large.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

THere IS a light at the end of the tunnel!! Best news since the Pally PrEs/endcaps!

That's a good point.
When I read the capstone, I thought.."sounds great, but we only have two quests in the game where it's useful".

Well, if we start seeing lots of LFMs for those two quests, all of a sudden it makes that Pal a desired build.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

This change will reduce the number of players visiting Chains of Flame, Tomb of the Wizard-King, and Offering of Blood.

To compensate, I suggest adjusting the rewards from those quests. Each time you turn in the quest rewards, there is a percent chance you are offered:
1. Firestorm Greaves (Chains of Flame)
2. Bloodstone (wizard king)
3. Spectral Gloves / Ancient Vulkoriim Dagger

The current loot layout is perverse, in that some of the better items from that area are acquired by farming easy outside chests, rather than attacking big elaborate quests.

OoB will still be run as a loot run. (Can anyone remember when it was impossible to get flagged cause no one would run OoB cause it was too hard?! And now it's a loot run. lol.)

I am disappointed that they gave into the zerging masses though. I did not mind running those quests. And now it means they wil go the way of Maraud the Mines and other desert quests....that no one ever runs anymore. :(
All good quests, but by the time you're good enough to run them, it's off to Gianhold...with the Vale soon to follow.

So yeah....I'll be the nay sayer. Now there will never be any reason at all to run the prereqs.
New guildless players will not be able to get flagged.
And no one will get XP for it cause only the lvl 20 guys are putting up LFMs.

I guess I will jump on the bandwagon and ask for better loot and xp for any seldom run quest.

[Angelus_dead]

OoB will still be run as a loot run.
No.

Looting Offering of Blood doesn't involve completing the quest. It is insane for defeating the end-boss of an instance to be completely counterproductive towards looting it.

[BigBadBarry]

Now there will never be any reason at all to run the prereqs.
New guildless players will not be able to get flagged.
And no one will get XP for it cause only the lvl 20 guys are putting up LFMs.

Of course there is a reason to run the prereq - to flag.

Sure - there may be no reason to re-run them - apart from favor...but this is no different to 95% of the other quests in the game.

Eg no-one re-runs HIPS except for favor or to help a guildie flag.

[ArkoHighStar]

I find it hysterical that we scream and yell for no reflag, and the first thing people do when we get it is complain nobody wil run the quests anymore

[Hendrik]

I find it hysterical that we scream and yell for no reflag, and the first thing people do when we get it is complain nobody wil run the quests anymore

Come on Arko, this is typical behavior around here.

:rolleyes:

[Gryphton]

AWESOME! Get that Dragon going too :D

[Borror0]

I find it hysterical that we scream and yell for no reflag, and the first thing people do when we get it is complain nobody wil run the quests anymore
Well, what did you expect?

[Dexxaan]

I find it hysterical that we scream and yell for no reflag, and the first thing people do when we get it is complain nobody wil run the quests anymore

Dude.....Hysterical is right, I'd compare it to Napoleon getting 3 sunny days in a row on his way back from his attempt at taking Moscow. :D

Nice? Sure.

Useful at L16 and about to hit level cap 20? ................You get the point?. :D

[Wizzly_Bear]

IMO Skiver has been replaced by shroud items.

While I agree that the utility of catch-all lore items is fantastic, shroud "super-superior" lore (+1.0 to crit mult, compared to the +0.25 of greater arcane lore :eek:) really overtakes that utility in a hurry.


What's the recipe for that??
:confused:

ive never heard about any "super-superior". sounds bogus to me.

[Borror0]

ive never heard about any "super-superior". sounds bogus to me.
...that was sarcasm from A_d.

[Wizzly_Bear]

...that was sarcasm from A_d.
yes, i read it as he doesnt believe it either so i quoted him for my disbelief.

[icculus]

Pack your caravan and get ready to head to the desert for your very own permanent raid flag! In Module 9, we've updated the Demon Sands raid to remove the repeat flagging mechanic!

No VoN perma flag? FTL :rolleyes:

[Wizzly_Bear]

No VoN perma flag? FTL :rolleyes:
no reading comprehension? FTL :rolleyes:

[Borror0]

No VoN perma flag? FTL :rolleyes:
As I said less than 20 posts ago:


Reading (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?&postid=2104961#post2104961) does not hurt.

[sirgog]

The flagging change is absolutely about encouraging people to run old content, but if there is no reason to run old content people will not run old content. I am not going back to waterworks to run that quest either with my capped characters even if they allow me to skip the first two parts of the quest and go directly to parts 3 and 4. This situation is no different. DQ will stay dead and buried. I actually wouldn't mind it if they put the bloodstone, spectral gloves, and firestorm greaves in the actual raid. Those items are all more valuable then anything currently in the raid itself.

I don't agree that the DQ loot is great at endgame, but I don't think it's useless either. The goggles, for instance, are superseded completely by Tharne's Goggles, but if you haven't yet got Tharne's, they are the next best thing in the game at what they do.

Another suggestion though - consider upping the difficulty of the raid on elite only (enough to make it as tough on Elite as VoD is on normal), and add a new chest that only spawns on elite which can drop the three items Norg mentioned. That'll add more challenging, fun stuff to do at endgame.

[maddmatt70]

I find it hysterical that we scream and yell for no reflag, and the first thing people do when we get it is complain nobody wil run the quests anymore

This is not new people including me asked for more i.e. both a better flagging mechanism and raid loot 6 months or so ago when there were alot of threads about DQ flagging. As I and others stated back then its a waste of dev time without at least better loot as well as the improved flag.. Now if they could just change the flagging for the Sorjek quests that would be great and actually be worth dev time because more people would run the quests because the loot despite the crazy grind can be worthwhile.

[tenga]

when i read teh title, i thought it was someone suggesting it. then i saw it was posted by tolero and i wet myself. kick ass.

[Vormaerin]

Maddmatt,

Its hard to tell if you are just trying to brag about the gear you already have or if you are one of those folks who think raids don't count if they don't keep hitting the moving end game target...

Its obvious you operate in that microcosm of players who have the time, skill, experience, etc to literally have any item in the game you want and have done everything so many times that new loot is the only reason to log in. For you, the loot isn't valuable. Oh well...

There are lots of players who have different criteria for determining what content to run. Like maybe they don't own everything in the game already or they just want to use this stuff from lvl 12 until they get stuff from the lvl 16 raids or they just have fun running this raid. It'll be much easier for players to form groups for this raid when its no longer necessary to reflag each time. I'd say the responses in this thread attest to that, even if it wasn't common sense.

[Angelus_dead]

Its hard to tell if you are just trying to brag about the gear you already have or if you are one of those folks who think raids don't count if they don't keep hitting the moving end game target...
Madmatt70 has been dancing around stating that outright, but it's true.

Timered raids are an inherently level-capped content, and when they sink significantly below the level cap their gameplay breaks. Such raids are normally run by players at (or near) level cap, regardless of the listed level of the raid. That means the players don't experience the feeling of a difficult, risky battle that the raid fight was intended to present.

That is doubly true for the "old school" raids (prior to Shroud in module 6), which were all built so that a group of 6 could win just fine (meaning they're less likely to present an appropriate challenge to the capped group running it). And it became more prominent after module 5 changed the loot rules and made it impossible for over-level players to use a smaller group without hurting their loot chance.

To prove this for yourself, just imagine for a moment that module 3 had been skipped in DDO's development, so there was no Demon Queen raid live yet, and the developers were about to add it in the next patch: What level do you think they'd insert it at? Obviously, they'd be crazy to insert a new raid at any level less than 17-18.

For Queen Laliat to continue functioning approximately as intended, she would need to be bumped up to a level-capped encounter. So far in this thread people have focused on suggestions to bring her loot up to level 16+ standards, but it would be inconsistent to do that without making her correspondingly more dangerous as well.

[maddmatt70]

Maddmatt,

Its hard to tell if you are just trying to brag about the gear you already have or if you are one of those folks who think raids don't count if they don't keep hitting the moving end game target...

Its obvious you operate in that microcosm of players who have the time, skill, experience, etc to literally have any item in the game you want and have done everything so many times that new loot is the only reason to log in. For you, the loot isn't valuable. Oh well...

There are lots of players who have different criteria for determining what content to run. Like maybe they don't own everything in the game already or they just want to use this stuff from lvl 12 until they get stuff from the lvl 16 raids or they just have fun running this raid. It'll be much easier for players to form groups for this raid when its no longer necessary to reflag each time. I'd say the responses in this thread attest to that, even if it wasn't common sense.

Raids are designed for two things one is for a first time experience: you really don't have a loot expectation at that point and secondly: as an end game grind in ddo. In a sense any item can be had in ddo as long as someone is willing to do the quests enough times. There are other end game grinds in ddo other then the demon queen specifically the other raids and the Sorjek quests. These are all more worthwhile spending time in from a grinding standpoint once you have had that first time experience. This statement is true for vet, casual players, etc. After the first time experience wears off are they going to go back to run more demon queen if the loot is substandard? No, they will spend time grinding in Sorjek or running Shrouds or the like because the gear in those raids are more valuable.

[maddmatt70]

Madmatt70 has been dancing around stating that outright, but it's true.

Timered raids are an inherently level-capped content, and when they sink significantly below the level cap their gameplay breaks. Such raids are normally run by players at (or near) level cap, regardless of the listed level of the raid. That means the players don't experience the feeling of a difficult, risky battle that the raid fight was intended to present.

That is doubly true for the "old school" raids (prior to Shroud in module 6), which were all built so that a group of 6 could win just fine (meaning they're less likely to present an appropriate challenge to the capped group running it). And it became more prominent after module 5 changed the loot rules and made it impossible for over-level players to use a smaller group without hurting their loot chance.

To prove this for yourself, just imagine for a moment that module 3 had been skipped in DDO's development, so there was no Demon Queen raid live yet, and the developers were about to add it in the next patch: What level do you think they'd insert it at? Obviously, they'd be crazy to insert a new raid at any level less than 17-18.

For Queen Laliat to continue functioning approximately as intended, she would need to be bumped up to a level-capped encounter. So far in this thread people have focused on suggestions to bring her loot up to level 16+ standards, but it would be inconsistent to do that without making her correspondingly more dangerous as well.

Very true a raid is less fun if its a cake-walk like the dq is now for level 16 characters..

[Angelus_dead]

Raids are designed for two things one is for a first time experience: you really don't have a loot expectation at that point and secondly: as an end game grind in ddo.
In addition, remember that the "first time experience" is hurt if you're a level 12 character grouped with a bunch of 15-20 guys who are grinding for loot. You won't get to help much in the fight, and you won't even get to watch a good-looking battle, as the players instead steamroll an underlevelled boss.

[Vormaerin]

In addition, remember that the "first time experience" is hurt if you're a level 12 character grouped with a bunch of 15-20 guys who are grinding for loot. You won't get to help much in the fight, and you won't even get to watch a good-looking battle, as the players instead steamroll an underlevelled boss.

But that's an issue with every quest in the game. Every quest has the first time experience, after which you run it either because you enjoy that quest or you want the rewards it provides. Ideally, for both reasons. Large numbers of quests get run with folks way over level...you have to go out of your way to avoid it if you don't have a regular group to game with.

Are you suggesting that every other patch or so, they should rebuild Von, DQ, Titan, etc to the new cap just because they are nominally 12 man content instead of 6 man? That seems particularly unuseful, since there is far more to properly upleveling content than just adding hp etc to the mobs. It would have to come at the expense of new content. Not to mention the issues with Von1-4 being lvl 10 quests and Von5-6 being lvl 18...

[Borror0]

But that's an issue with every quest in the game.
Other quests are ran for XP while raid are solely ran for loot.

Are you suggesting that every other patch or so, they should rebuild Von, DQ, Titan, etc to the new cap just because they are nominally 12 man content instead of 6 man? That seems particularly unuseful, since there is far more to properly upleveling content than just adding hp etc to the mobs. It would have to come at the expense of new content.
It's a cheap way to artificially increase the end game content. Not much to do, other than simply tweaking the monsters.

Not to mention the issues with Von1-4 being lvl 10 quests and Von5-6 being lvl 18...
How is that an issue? The old raid could be left there too, with the current loot.

[miceelf88]

There's nothing wrong with leaving old raids at their old level. nothing wrong with allowing casual/newer players having something to do before cap. Otherwise, why not make every quest at the cap, and just let people level up on explorer zones?

Of course, if one is only adding one new raid, one adds it at cap. but taht doesn't mean that every raid should be at cap.

[Borror0]

Of course, if one is only adding one new raid, one adds it at cap. but taht doesn't mean that every raid should be at cap.
How often do you run a lowbie raid? (Tempest Spine is excluded because it does not have a timer.)

[Strakeln]

What's the recipe for that??


:confused:

ive never heard about any "super-superior". sounds bogus to me.


...that was sarcasm from A_d.


yes, i read it as he doesnt believe it either so i quoted him for my disbelief.I'll gather screenshots to help explain, give me a day.

Edit: I stand corrected, received bad information

[Angelus_dead]

But that's an issue with every quest in the game.
No. Most quest levels are start-based, not end based.

You probably don't know what that means, so here it is: I'm talking about the thought-process used by the designer as he was making the quest. It is inaccurate to think of content at being added at a level expressed as an absolute number, like level 3 or level 17. More useful results are obtained once you express the level as (start + 3) or (end + 1).

Start-based content is that whose target level is derived from the starting level of gameplay, like how Korthos is (start+1) = level 1 and Waterworks is ((start+1)+1)=level 2 to ((start+1)+1+1)=level 3. What I'm doing there is replicating the process the designers used to choose quest levels: they start at the beginning of the game and put in quests for the first level until they have enough (for players to advance to the next level without too much repetition). Then they go to the next level up and fill in quests for level 2 to reach 3. They repeat that all the way up to the level cap.

That's how most content-level is chosen. However, the process was different for raid content. Raids like VON and Titan weren't based on inductive incrementing up from level 1. Instead, the designer looked at the highest allowable level in the game, and based the quest on that: cap+0 for VON6, cap+2 for Twilight Forge, cap+0 for Demon Queen, etc. Those pieces of content were directed not at characters working their way up the XP ladder, but at those who had already reached the top and would remain there for a long while.

But a raid that was targetted at cap+2=12 breaks down once cap changes to 16, cap+2=18, and yet the raid is left behind at level 12. The chain of reasoning that choose the original level would no longer give the same result if it were repeated in the new environment, but the quest is stuck at the old limit. It would be better if endgame quests had "floating" levels so that each time the level-cap increases, the raid is re-adjusted to fit the new top level of characters. (Obviously there are various workload and consistency obstacles to following that procedure; but just because something is hard doesn't mean it's not worthwhile)

If the devs had been following that principle from the start, then instead of there being 4 things for capped characters to do (Shroud, Hound, Vod, Sorjek) there'd be 4-5 more (Velah, Titan, Lailat, Reaver, etc)

[miceelf88]

I run many of the mid game raids. Especially on my non-capped characters. I also remember how the possibility of beating velah was one of the things that kept me tied in on my first character between 8 and 10 when it was kind of a grind for me as a casual/new player

Whether it makes sense for the devs to spend time re-rigging existing raids to cap, I guess, depends on whether most players are capped characters or whether most are casual/slow to level, etc.

I still like the idea of having the elite setting be for cap and the lower settings be for the original levels. That seems like it would give something for everyone.

I don't think it's a good idea to have the entire game be focused on the end game players, unless turbine is expecting a very small and stable base of players and not much new growth.

[Jaywade]

this has been in my sig for quite awhiile glad to see ya working on something that will make a great deal of your current player base happy...good dev's just don't forget about the dragon

[Goldeneye]

If DQ gets too easy, turbine will just add air elementals!!!!

[Auran82]

Maybe they could just change the earlier raids (DQ, VON and Titan) to have a similar system to that devil invasion quest.

Normal is the old level, Hard is that +4, elite is normal +8.

Maybe scale the loot so that the hard version of items has what the normal version has but is slighty better, same again for elite.

Or they could just hurry up and complete MOD 9 so we have something else to do instead of trolling the forums.

[Auran82]

If DQ gets too easy, turbine will just add air elementals!!!!

Red named of course.

Had the most fun DQ run the other day, 6 people, levels 15 to 16 and we just ran around killing stuff, rangers seem to do well in there with a silver bow and some cold iron arrows.

[samagee]

We're hoping to get Velah in line with a permanent flag next :) she's a bit more complicated and it's taking them a little more fiddling with her to make sure we don't break people's characters. Hopefully we can get her into perma-flag position as well

So this means mod 9 isn't close to being released and all these other things are just previews to what is currently being developed. I feel the team should be putting the final touches on bug fixes before release day, not still developing the release. Looks like I am going to take a closer look at other games after all.

[Borror0]

So this means mod 9 isn't close to being released and all these other things are just previews to what is currently being developed.
Or, that they planned in adding Velah but that it kept bugging in QA so they dropped it until M10.

[sephiroth1084]

I still think that the best solution would be to increase the level of the Hard and Elite difficulty of the lower raids. Maybe push VoN 5/6 Elite to lvl 18? Titan, DQ, Reaver to 18, 19 or 20?

The harder difficulties could include gems that drop in the end chest--a certain number of these could then be combined with the raid items from the raid in an altar to upgrade them in a particular way, essentially giving Hard and Elite level-appropriate loot. Say, there's a 50% chance for each player to receive a gem in the end chest, the BoA, and 10 are required to upgrade an item (so, 20 runs on average to upgrade one item). There would be one type of gem for Hard and one for Elite for each of the upgraded raids. The gems would be unique to their respective raid.

I agree that having VoN in the 8-12 range is great! Especially now that the flagging looks like it'll get changed, so moving the whole raid doesn't sound like a good idea. But why not adjust the other 2 difficulties ala Devil Assault? They have some experience doing that, and it probably will require less effort than creating an entirely new quest.

[query]

BTW, ONLY the jerkey regens for WF and...oh yeah the Arcane Power Invun /bee point was brought up earlier.

Silly, I was thinking (yet again) what this would do for NEW PLAYERS while there those capped people think it was SOLELY for them again....still laugh over Korthos because those vets couldn't READ the NPC info by clicking on them instead of zerg clicking :p

Now, fix the Thelanis Lag, and I'll stay.

Oh, folks, she's already taken (has a husband so stop targeting me! *Ducks another Dwarven Thrower and leaps away from an explosive spell.*)

[Rouge]

We're hoping to get Velah in line with a permanent flag next :) she's a bit more complicated and it's taking them a little more fiddling with her to make sure we don't break people's characters. Hopefully we can get her into perma-flag position as well

I had an idea for Velah that I am sure I posted in the past.........

Do NOT give her a permaflag in the way you are thinking......

The whole thing with Velah is that you get the help of the Laughing Knives to help you, well that is at level 10. You need the help because you are just a low level adventurer.

Allow a higher level version with higher level loot if you do not get their help. In other words there would be two different levels for the Vault of Night. A Low level and a High level, in the low it would work just like it does right now. But for the high level version you would just enter the vault with your raid group and using the exact same maps, we (the players) would encounter higher level bad guys to fight, perhaps even some different ones. Once we move on to the Plane of Night we'd encounter a Velah more on par with what you would expect say 18th level adventurers to face, with improved versions of the loot that drops now.

Going through it this way, you actually are perma-flagged in the sense that we are gonna see with Lailiat. You just have to have completed it one time on the normal version, it would almost be like they showed you the way through and how to defeat the traps in the vault. Just give new options, like Bluff to use because we don't have the voice for example. We'd be like, do we have the 52 Bluff needed to turn off the barriers so we can do this on Elite? Oh, I forgot about that.... does the Rogue have the 70 Disable we need for that? All right normal it is then, unless we can fill that last slot with that disable we need. (remember we are talking 20th level chars here)

[crschoen]

I like this change, however I feel that you should make it necessary to complete all 4 pre-quests on Elite. This would balance it out a little bit between the current grind and the future onset of ignoring the desert quests entirely after you've completed the pre-reqs on normal. As it stands, few run the desert quests now. This change will all but eliminate them from the LFM. Alternatively, you could create a separate favor system for Zawabi that would remove the pre-reqs.

[Hendrik]

I still think that the best solution would be to increase the level of the Hard and Elite difficulty of the lower raids. Maybe push VoN 5/6 Elite to lvl 18? Titan, DQ, Reaver to 18, 19 or 20?




And then you have just screwed EVERYONE else that is not at cap. ALL the players doing these at proper level now have to wait until they are at those new level to do Hard/Elite.

These need to stay as they are.

[Wizzly_Bear]

I like this change, however I feel that you should make it necessary to complete all 4 pre-quests on Elite. This would balance it out a little bit between the current grind and the future onset of ignoring the desert quests entirely after you've completed the pre-reqs on normal. As it stands, few run the desert quests now. This change will all but eliminate them from the LFM. Alternatively, you could create a separate favor system for Zawabi that would remove the pre-reqs.
a lot of the lesser skilled players would have a lot of trouble completing those quests on elite, if they could do it at all. if not for this i would be all for the idea.

[tihocan]

Just to express my opinion: I don't like it. I enjoyed that some of the raid loot was rare, even if it was just because the majority of people did not want to invest the time in getting it. It made it more valuable in my eyes, and I felt a better sense of accomplishment when getting such items. In comparison, I feel zero sense in accomplishment in getting Reaver loot, because it's so easy and requires so little effort (the only effort is waiting on the timer).
Just my 2 cts that won't make any difference :)

[StrangStormblade]

Yeah... shake the chain bikini as I send her straight back to the Abyss! On a more serious note: I love to see that the team is doing such a fantastic job of finding ways to make further improvements to the game and the whole gaming experience.
See y'all in Sarlonna *usually around 8am-1pm central time. Fellow citizens have a cheer for your local neighborhood paladin is here.


Pack your caravan and get ready to head to the desert for your very own permanent raid flag! In Module 9, we've updated the Demon Sands raid to remove the repeat flagging mechanic!

In order to get your permanent flag for the Demon Queen raid in Mod 9, you'll need to complete one full run of the prerequisite quests to gather the items and speak with Zawabi to turn them in. Presto! You’re permanently flagged for the pre-raid and raid! This permanent flag will allow you to repeat “Against the Demon Queen” and “Zawabi’s Revenge” without needing to recollect the items each time (after your 3 day raid timer of course).

The Demon Queen is shaking in her chain bikini in anticipation of repeat visitors testing their might against her many armed fury!

[Demonfire]

freaking finally!

And thanx too about mentioning Vhela is considered right now too!

[sephiroth1084]

And then you have just screwed EVERYONE else that is not at cap. ALL the players doing these at proper level now have to wait until they are at those new level to do Hard/Elite.

These need to stay as they are.

How often do you run VoN, DQ, TF and Reaver on elite at level? I can't recall ever seeing VoN Hard or Elite offered for anything but x-16 groups, and the DQ and TF are primarily run by capped (or nearly capped) characters on any difficulty.

I know that I've only run the Reaver at level on anything other than normal, and also know that it can be very difficult finding a group that doesn't include 15s and 16s for TF and DQ. Reaver Elite is currently basically automatic, even with the changes. This would make running it on normal and hard realistic possibilities.

I think you're DRAMATICALLY overstating the impact that moving Hard and Elite out of their current level range would have on ANYONE. Also, there is much more content at lvls 8-14 than there is at level 16, and this really isn't robbing the lower levels of anything: Normal is still there, Hard would likely be doable at around lvl 14 or 15 (for VoN).

Plus, this would revitalize those raids, keeping them relevant for half of the game (8-cap).

[Furysetzer]

Finally. Something to do more than Bloodstone runs. Thank you.

[Angelus_dead]

And then you have just screwed EVERYONE else that is not at cap. ALL the players doing these at proper level now have to wait until they are at those new level to do Hard/Elite.
Boo hoo. They'll have to wait a few more levels. Oh no! That'll could take as much as two or three days!

Serious question: Where do people get the idea that there exists a substantial population of non-high-level raiding characters?

[caution]

This change will reduce the number of players visiting Chains of Flame, Tomb of the Wizard-King, and Offering of Blood.

To compensate, I suggest adjusting the rewards from those quests. Each time you turn in the quest rewards, there is a percent chance you are offered:
1. Firestorm Greaves (Chains of Flame)
2. Bloodstone (wizard king)
3. Spectral Gloves / Ancient Vulkoriim Dagger

The current loot layout is perverse, in that some of the better items from that area are acquired by farming easy outside chests, rather than attacking big elaborate quests.

I second this, as I am also sick of seeing desert explorer/slayer quests being turning into bloodstone runs by default.

What about the spell storing ring??

[Angelus_dead]

I second this, as I am also sick of seeing desert explorer/slayer quests being turning into bloodstone runs by default.
That's a separate thing they could fix: redistribute the desert named loot so people focus on more than just the 2-3 chests with good items. Two ways to do that:
1. Randomize the item positions, so that Bloodstone and Firestorm Greaves can drop from any box, instead of just the specific places they do now.
2. Add a kind of collectible item to the desert chests, which you can gather in quantity and return to an NPC to pick a reward from a list (like the Necropolis outdoor system)


What about the spell storing ring??
I hadn't considered that as still really valuable, since it's so annoying to wait for it's cooldown. (It should be changed from 3x25 spellpoints to 1x75)

[ThrasherGT]

<snip>

I hadn't considered that as still really valuable, since it's so annoying to wait for it's cooldown. (It should be changed from 3x25 spellpoints to 1x75)

At this point in the game, it should be changed to a higher number, with a minimum level, or it should scale with player level so that it's still useful at endgame. I'm not saying the ring should hold 500 sp's, but for a 20th level character, it should be 3 x 50 or 60 or 100. When those specced for it will have 3000 or more sp at endgame, what's another 2-300, when 9th level spells will probably cost close to 100 sp each?

[archangelspeed]

This change will reduce the number of players visiting Chains of Flame, Tomb of the Wizard-King, and Offering of Blood.

To compensate, I suggest adjusting the rewards from those quests. Each time you turn in the quest rewards, there is a percent chance you are offered:
1. Firestorm Greaves (Chains of Flame)
2. Bloodstone (wizard king)
3. Spectral Gloves / Ancient Vulkoriim Dagger

The current loot layout is perverse, in that some of the better items from that area are acquired by farming easy outside chests, rather than attacking big elaborate quests.

I like idea A_D, it altars the "grind" feel of those quests a little bit. I little more bang for the buck and a good reason to go out there and run them. I always thought those quests were good, but a hastle since when I did them it was because I wanted to do queen, not the quest. I like the idea of making old quests worth revisiting. And it doesnt truely altar the new game experience for new gamers.

I hope the Dev's see this and add it to the mess of good ideas generated on the mod 9 threads.