Bad tactics in Shroud??

[rezo]

Why is it that everyone must melee with Harry on part 4 and 5 in the Shroud?? I was in a group that ranged him, true it took 4.5 rounds but the Clr.'s didn't run out of spell points and no one died. I've been seeing the posting "More Melee Needed" and when you have 2 clr.'s or worst a Clr. and Bard the Clr. having to go through mana pot and heal scrolls. Why, I'm begin to think it's bad tactics to melee him in part 4 and 5. And what is up with the tanks demanding a bard for song's?? What, is you build so useless the you need a more +'s to hit with your Green steel weapon!! Do you get a cookie if you kill Harry in two rounds??? Plx tell me why???? :eek:

[vtecfiend99]

Why is it that everyone must melee with Harry on part 4 and 5 in the Shroud?? I was in a group that ranged him, true it took 4.5 rounds but the Clr.'s didn't run out of spell points and no one died. I've been seeing the posting "More Melee Needed" and when you have 2 clr.'s or worst a Clr. and Bard the Clr. having to go through mana pot and heal scrolls. Why, I'm begin to think it's bad tactics to melee him in part 4 and 5. And what is up with the tanks demanding a bard for song's?? What, is you build so useless the you need a more +'s to hit with your Green steel weapon!! Do you get a cookie if you kill Harry in two rounds??? Plx tell me why???? :eek:

One round with good dps and a bard. Cleric mana not even half gone. Sure there are other tactics that work, but why not get it done faster?

[Gunga]

I prefer "Time is money" to "No pain, no gain" when running my raids.

[rezo]

I take it that you play Fighter types only not Clr.s right???

[vtecfiend99]

I prefer "Time is money" to "No pain, no gain" when running my raids.

Time is money for sure, but no pain no gain I can't get behind for a raid that is over a year old. Can't remember the last time I used a mana pot or even came close to running out of mana on my cleric. I know it's the same with your groups.

[vtecfiend99]

I take it that you play Fighter types only not Clr.s right???
While I dont usually stick up for gunga, I know for a fact he has at least one cleric that he raids with. Probably more. I have one, and I would much rather as many people as possible be swinging from harry's crotch with swords than plinking away with arrows.


Like i said, get it done faster so i can get my next toon in there.

[DropList]

If there were potions of bard songs...I woulndt ask for them on my melees....but other than a bard clicking on one button...there is no other way to get said bonuses. So If a bard forgets to play...a helpful reminder is appreciated. I know If I forget on my bard...I am more embarrassed than upset. A bards MAIN reason for being in any raid is his/hers songs....period. Sure my bard can get plus 46 to damage and do 150 hp on heal scrolls....but w/o playing my songs.....I am a gimped.....anything. Play your songs....the bonuses are IMPOSSIBLE to get from another sourse....feel happy you are in demand!

[Show_me_the_Platinum]

I just think it's because they want to be the center of attention. After all they have to be the hero even though they don't plan out everything from the start and play it by ear only to find that their base 12 str fighter can't hit the broad side of a barn and thus needs endless buffs to hit anything in the world even a CR .25 kolbold, just pay to rename your toon and call him MrGimpy and get it over with.

If you believe that doing as much damage as possible is important, then WHY don't you have everyone in the 12 man raid group up there pounding away at him? Battle Clerics would be the best for this as after the fight they could heal you back up. Or is it possible that you don't have the con or hit points required to take all the damage handed out and need your own personal heal bot or two to keep you from dying?

Or is it that you refuse to accept a tactic where you're not the center of attention? Oh wait I forgot anyone playing a cleric is suppose to pay 15 bucks a month for you two have fun, cause heaven forbid that everyone in the party have fun while playing this game. If you want to be the guy then I suggest playing this game where you can be http://kayin.pyoko.org/iwbtg/ then you can be the guy.

Please respond to this all Mr. Gimpy builds.

P.S. obviously this game is designed for fighters to be the center of attention since there are so many pure melee classes around like bards, rouges "you might be able to pick his pockets if you try hard enough.", and RANGERS.

P.S. P.S. What's up with rouges anyway? They think that they can DPS when they get NO combat related feats. I mean I could see if they got two weapon fighting, or maybe weapon specialization, but they just think that sneak attack damage means they are a front line fighter. I mean come on they get 6 HP a level to a fighter's 10 and they don't even have that good of a to hit bonus. 3/4 of a fighter is the same as a clerics, and don't bards have the same thing? Wait I know. They are front line fighters for battle wizards and battle sorcerers who have a 1/2 to hit of that of a fighter. So I get it they hit more often the casters so that means they make good fighters who actually hit better then rouges, unless they are a Mr. Gimpy build then the fighter can only hit with Greater Heroism and Bard songs.

[SableShadow]

Why is it that everyone must melee with Harry on part 4 and 5 in the Shroud?? I was in a group that ranged him, true it took 4.5 rounds but the Clr.'s didn't run out of spell points and no one died. I've been seeing the posting "More Melee Needed" and when you have 2 clr.'s or worst a Clr. and Bard the Clr. having to go through mana pot and heal scrolls. Why, I'm begin to think it's bad tactics to melee him in part 4 and 5. And what is up with the tanks demanding a bard for song's?? What, is you build so useless the you need a more +'s to hit with your Green steel weapon!! Do you get a cookie if you kill Harry in two rounds??? Plx tell me why???? :eek:

More than one way to do most things in this game. If it works for you, do it. If it doesn't, or some better tactic comes along, do that.

[Elaril]

Why is it that everyone must melee with Harry on part 4 and 5 in the Shroud?? I was in a group that ranged him, true it took 4.5 rounds but the Clr.'s didn't run out of spell points and no one died. I've been seeing the posting "More Melee Needed" and when you have 2 clr.'s or worst a Clr. and Bard the Clr. having to go through mana pot and heal scrolls. Why, I'm begin to think it's bad tactics to melee him in part 4 and 5. And what is up with the tanks demanding a bard for song's?? What, is you build so useless the you need a more +'s to hit with your Green steel weapon!! Do you get a cookie if you kill Harry in two rounds??? Plx tell me why???? :eek:

Because standing right up on the boss and holding your attack button down is much more interesting than standing way far away from the boss and holding your attack button down.

Plus, as was mentioned earlier, time is money. Why do in five rounds what you can do in one?

[boldarblood]

Why is it that everyone must melee with Harry on part 4 and 5 in the Shroud?? I was in a group that ranged him, true it took 4.5 rounds but the Clr.'s didn't run out of spell points and no one died. I've been seeing the posting "More Melee Needed" and when you have 2 clr.'s or worst a Clr. and Bard the Clr. having to go through mana pot and heal scrolls. Why, I'm begin to think it's bad tactics to melee him in part 4 and 5. And what is up with the tanks demanding a bard for song's?? What, is you build so useless the you need a more +'s to hit with your Green steel weapon!! Do you get a cookie if you kill Harry in two rounds??? Plx tell me why???? :eek:

Because 4.5 rounds takes to long :P

I would much rather be done in 1 round, or shortly into 2nd round then go 4-5 rounds. Ranging him is for those groups that lack the DPS to kill him in proper time.

It's not the plus to hit that most melee are wanting from the Bard, its the plus to damage. Also nothing wrong with an AC build to ask for the AC song.

[kinar]

And what is up with the tanks demanding a bard for song's?? What, is you build so useless the you need a more +'s to hit with your Green steel weapon!!while bard songs do add to attack, the +dmg is MUCH more important. most people can already hit the mobs without bard songs. However, there is absolutely no way in the game to replace the damage of a bard song. And it is an extremely significant amount of damage...especially when talking about a raid party.

[bandyman1]

I just think it's because they want to be the center of attention. After all they have to be the hero even though they don't plan out everything from the start and play it by ear only to find that their base 12 str fighter can't hit the broad side of a barn and thus needs endless buffs to hit anything in the world even a CR .25 kolbold, just pay to rename your toon and call him MrGimpy and get it over with.

If you believe that doing as much damage as possible is important, then WHY don't you have everyone in the 12 man raid group up there pounding away at him? Battle Clerics would be the best for this as after the fight they could heal you back up. Or is it possible that you don't have the con or hit points required to take all the damage handed out and need your own personal heal bot or two to keep you from dying?

Or is it that you refuse to accept a tactic where you're not the center of attention? Oh wait I forgot anyone playing a cleric is suppose to pay 15 bucks a month for you two have fun, cause heaven forbid that everyone in the party have fun while playing this game. If you want to be the guy then I suggest playing this game where you can be http://kayin.pyoko.org/iwbtg/ then you can be the guy.

Please respond to this all Mr. Gimpy builds.

P.S. obviously this game is designed for fighters to be the center of attention since there are so many pure melee classes around like bards, rouges "you might be able to pick his pockets if you try hard enough.", and RANGERS.

P.S. P.S. What's up with rouges anyway? They think that they can DPS when they get NO combat related feats. I mean I could see if they got two weapon fighting, or maybe weapon specialization, but they just think that sneak attack damage means they are a front line fighter. I mean come on they get 6 HP a level to a fighter's 10 and they don't even have that good of a to hit bonus. 3/4 of a fighter is the same as a clerics, and don't bards have the same thing? Wait I know. They are front line fighters for battle wizards and battle sorcerers who have a 1/2 to hit of that of a fighter. So I get it they hit more often the casters so that means they make good fighters who actually hit better then rouges, unless they are a Mr. Gimpy build then the fighter can only hit with Greater Heroism and Bard songs.

You must play with some very, very ****** players.

FYI, I beaten the shroud several times with only one bard in group for healing, and no ranged characters in the party.

If a cleric has to use pots in there, he might want to take a look askance at Joe Random the Harbor Noob that he's running with, before he decides that it's " bad tactics " to melee Harry.

[sjwalker1973]

Unless I'm on my Barbarian with the Greensteel axe, no I don't melee big Aritrikos. It's suicide. I sit back and heal like a good cleric. Now I've seen many a cleric melee him thinking they're helping out. They're not. Clerics need to stay back and heal and mass prot the meleers to keep them alive. Let them do their job.

[Show_me_the_Platinum]

Wow you must run with all the good bards and clerics. I get the bards who think they can DPS and the clerics are always running out of spell points (all three of them).

Though I do see one point of dropping him fast. I wouldn't want to spend to much time actually playing the game.

If you don't want to spend that much time playing this game why do you log on?

In paper and pencil do you only spend 14-15 minutes in a session where your party starts off and finishes?

P.S. this pics for all you Mr. Gimpies out there Mr. Gimpiy (http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/funny-pictures-cat-has-delusions-of-grandeur.jpg)


Unless I'm on my Barbarian with the Greensteel axe, no I don't melee big Aritrikos. It's suicide. I sit back and heal like a good cleric. Now I've seen many a cleric melee him thinking they're helping out. They're not. Clerics need to stay back and heal and mass prot the meleers to keep them alive. Let them do their job.

But wont it do more damage to have the clerics up there meleeing him if you think DPS is important. I level 16 cleric gets as many attacks as a rouge or bard and they can have green steel weapons on par with everyone and feats such as two weapon fighting

[boldarblood]

Though I do see one point of dropping him fast. I wouldn't want to spend to much time actually playing the game.

If you don't want to spend that much time playing this game why do you log on?


Has absolutely nothing to do with how much time playing the game. It has everything to do with doing it as fast as possible so you can bring in another character to loot. Those 5 round part 4 and 5 took as much time as it just did to run 2 whole shrouds.

[SableShadow]

But wont it do more damage to have the clerics up there meleeing him if you think DPS is important. I level 16 cleric gets as many attacks as a rouge or bard and they can have green steel weapons on par with everyone and feats such as two weapon fighting

I know I'm in a decent PUG Shroud when I see everyone not otherwise occupied beating on portals instead of waiting about with their thumb firmly planted.

If you want to make points about "bring ur fighter" against "bring ur rogue", you wanna take the argument to Shroud 5 instead of Shroud 4.

[Show_me_the_Platinum]

Has absolutely nothing to do with how much time playing the game. It has everything to do with doing it as fast as possible so you can bring in another character to loot. Those 5 round part 4 and 5 took as much time as it just did to run 2 whole shrouds.

Ah so it's being a loot w**** more then actually playing the game.


I know I'm in a decent PUG Shroud when I see everyone not otherwise occupied beating on portals instead of waiting about with their thumb firmly planted.

If you want to make points about "bring ur fighter" against "bring ur rogue", you wanna take the argument to Shroud 5 instead of Shroud 4.

I'm not trying to talk about bringing fighters over rouges. Rouges do get the bonus sneak attack damage on things, the only problem is rouges don't realize "Hey if I grab agro I lose sneak attack."

Plus I'm also talking about Argonnessen more then other servers (I don't know why but that server seems to have more people who know more about the game then anyone else but can only figure out one way of doing things unlike SARLONA who figured out how to do an all sorc run)

I also like how the hero method will work on the dragon raid (von 6), but isn't a valid method on the shroud part 4. Is the dragon that much harder to beat then harry?

[Riorik]

Wow...(useless chat deleted)...

I suggest nobody feed this one. Three posts all today and only on this thread. Comments clearly begging for attention.




There's lots of ways to get segment four done. All I know on my Rogue is going TWF on him I'm getting numbers around 60 damage per swing (more when it crits) - about half of which is sneak attack - and mostly just using +5 transmuting equipment. Rogues in concert with DPS builds just beat the daylights out of Harry. Sadly I built for bluff not diplo so the precious seconds it takes to bluff him only tend to get me one or two sneak attack swings...plus all the "downtime" while I'm doing it.

[Eudimio]

Why is it that everyone must melee with Harry on part 4 and 5 in the Shroud?? I was in a group that ranged him, true it took 4.5 rounds but the Clr.'s didn't run out of spell points and no one died. I've been seeing the posting "More Melee Needed" and when you have 2 clr.'s or worst a Clr. and Bard the Clr. having to go through mana pot and heal scrolls. Why, I'm begin to think it's bad tactics to melee him in part 4 and 5. And what is up with the tanks demanding a bard for song's?? What, is you build so useless the you need a more +'s to hit with your Green steel weapon!! Do you get a cookie if you kill Harry in two rounds??? Plx tell me why???? :eek:

You just described a fairly decent elite shroud run. 5 rounds, mostly ranged, no cleric resources.

Warchanters can give an extra +8 damage on every attack from every character against every mob. That's why bards are there. And that's why there's usually only one of them.

Mass healing 9-10 melees costs the same amount of spellpoints as mass healing 5-6.

At best, a ranged attacker does half of the dps of that same attacker meleeing, unless you only range when multishot is active.

And finally, a self-buffed melee bard does more dps than a fighter, paladin, or barbarian without those buffs.

[boldarblood]

Ah so it's being a loot w**** more then actually playing the game.


Zergers are playing the game, they are just playing it faster than you. They pay there $15 the same as you do. You just sound bitter for some reason. There is nothing wrong with speed zerging shroud so can go run other quests.


I also like how the hero method will work on the dragon raid (von 6), but isn't a valid method on the shroud part 4. Is the dragon that much harder to beat then harry?
Havent seen hero method on Khyber for dragon in years. If they are still doing hero method with character levels 12+ they are wasting time.

[SableShadow]

Sadly I built for bluff not diplo so the precious seconds it takes to bluff him only tend to get me one or two sneak attack swings...plus all the "downtime" while I'm doing it.

I did the same. Grind the Ring of Lies and some DT armor (+5 resist and +6 stat) so you can offhand it; you'll hit the DC even with a gimp diplo. Big diff.

[bandyman1]

Ah so it's being a loot w**** more then actually playing the game.



I'm not trying to talk about bringing fighters over rouges. Rouges do get the bonus sneak attack damage on things, the only problem is rouges don't realize "Hey if I grab agro I lose sneak attack." If you have proper meless, and the rogue is a decent player ( Read; High Diplo, good argo management skills ), this shouldn't be an issue.

Plus I'm also talking about Argonnessen more then other servers (I don't know why but that server seems to have more people who know more about the game then anyone else but can only figure out one way of doing things unlike SARLONA who figured out how to do an all sorc run) Whatever dude :rolleyes:. As has been stated; It's not about " only one way to do things ". It's about efficiency. Plain and simple. I got 20 toons. I'm not gonna spend over an hour in the Shroud so Joe Bob the Archer and his band of merry men can range the fiend, when I can run it in 20-30 minutes with a proper melee party, without pot use by the healer. I was part of the first group on Argo to complete the Shroud. Been at it a long time. Not in there to sight see.

I also like how the hero method will work on the dragon raid (von 6), but isn't a valid method on the shroud part 4. Is the dragon that much harder to beat then harry? Yep. It's valid. See Groan and Mhykke's two-man completion of Shroud, or some of the other duo runs on the Thelanis forums. But a proper group could run 4 Shrouds in the time it would take you to do that. Again; Efficiency. Velah doesn't have the HPs Harry does.

Comments in Red.

[Aspenor]

i've been in a 1 rounder with 3 casters.

just sayin :)

[Andora]

I take it that you play Fighter types only not Clr.s right???


I have been a cleric in a Gunga led shroud raid. All clerics would be rich if Gunga was in charge of all runs. No pots, no scrolls, no pain, all gain.

[Aspenor]

Comments in Red.

bah

the other day nick and i shrouded with the crew, in part 5 nick was yelling "CLERICS NUKE THIS *****!!!!"

i think part 5 lasted all of 90 seconds...

[SableShadow]

bah

the other day nick and i shrouded with the crew, in part 5 nick was yelling "CLERICS NUKE THIS *****!!!!"

i think part 5 lasted all of 90 seconds...

Nerf Nick!!!! :mad:

[Show_me_the_Platinum]

While yes zerging is part of the game. I do play a cleric and when I DIE 3 times in a quest because half the party ran past a mob cause "If the party runs past it we wont have to deal with it." (dying to me isn't really fun)

Call me crazy but I don't want to run the same quest 4 times in a hour just so I can log off one character and switch to another to do the same exact thing over again. (I guess this is why new content doesn't come out fast enough for people. They run the shroud 50 times and only ran Dreams of Insanity once)

Yes I am striving for attention, attention to these topics. These are things that I hear people complaining about all the time, but no one really seems to do anything about it.

but I have gotten off topic with the above.

I prefer to play smarter not faster. I've seen more party wipes because people think there is only one way of doing something, and something throws a monkey wrench into that plan (such as the tanks not getting away from harry when the blades move in)

Though people have been using the saying "Time is money" you're right I've spent 15 dollars to play for a month and I'm not going to beat all the new stuff in one day.

[boldarblood]

I prefer to play smarter not faster. I've seen more party wipes because people think there is only one way of doing something, and something throws a monkey wrench into that plan (such as the tanks not getting away from harry when the blades move in)

Though people have been using the saying "Time is money" you're right I've spent 15 dollars to play for a month and I'm not going to beat all the new stuff in one day.


zerging does not mean playing dumb, or less smart. If the party wipes because they are going to fast for what the party can handle, theyre bad players, not zergers. True zerging through a quest is completing at fraction of the time, with minimal to no resource use and no deaths. You'll also find that a great many of the zergers have already done every quest in game, multiple times, much more so than the casual players. They have reached a point in the game when they can zerg through the quests at high speed because they have completed them so many times. Once again, stop being bitter. If you don't like a zerging party, don't join one, or create a new group with the intention of exploring a quest at whatever speed you want.

[maddmatt70]

You just described a fairly decent elite shroud run. 5 rounds, mostly ranged, no cleric resources.



/Not signed. A fairly decent elite run is one with no ranged and takes between 2-4 rounds on part 4.

[maddmatt70]

Havent seen hero method on Khyber for dragon in years. If they are still doing hero method with character levels 12+ they are wasting time.

Alot of pugs do the hero method because they can't count on the healers. Its a waste of time though for experienced players/groups..

[maddmatt70]

While yes zerging is part of the game. I do play a cleric and when I DIE 3 times in a quest because half the party ran past a mob cause "If the party runs past it we wont have to deal with it." (dying to me isn't really fun)

Call me crazy but I don't want to run the same quest 4 times in a hour just so I can log off one character and switch to another to do the same exact thing over again. (I guess this is why new content doesn't come out fast enough for people. They run the shroud 50 times and only ran Dreams of Insanity once)

Yes I am striving for attention, attention to these topics. These are things that I hear people complaining about all the time, but no one really seems to do anything about it.

but I have gotten off topic with the above.

I prefer to play smarter not faster. I've seen more party wipes because people think there is only one way of doing something, and something throws a monkey wrench into that plan (such as the tanks not getting away from harry when the blades move in)

Though people have been using the saying "Time is money" you're right I've spent 15 dollars to play for a month and I'm not going to beat all the new stuff in one day.

You play the game your way and us experienced non casual gamer types will play it our way. By your reckoning you should have the left the game a long time ago. The sorjek quests even for a casual gamer could easily have been beaten in a day. The sorjek quests are the only quests that have been released at the end game in the last 9 months. So what have you been doing the last 9 months - I mean thanks for your $15 dollars a month much appreciated.

[Show_me_the_Platinum]

zerging does not mean playing dumb, or less smart.
Could have fooled me. Also I'm not bitter, I'm just annoyed at how "experienced" players play, and in my experience most people (at least 99.99% of the 50+ people who have zerged in groups I'm in) don't even know about some of the things in the quest because they just run through them (and if people that zerg have done every quest in the game multiple times? How come on Arg it's so hard to find elite openers that level caps need someone to open STK on elite for them?)

Though I guess you're a busy person if you need to do 20 min runs on a RAID quest, you know something 11 other people are taking time out of their day to help you with cause obviously it's not that important of a quest.

[Mhykke]

Lots of facepalming in this thread.

[Show_me_the_Platinum]

Lots of facepalming in this thread.

Don't blame me. I've just been saying what all my RL friends who play DDO have been saying (ones who've been playing as long as I have)

[Chelsa]

On Thelanis we just run the thing. Sometimes it is 1 round, sometimes it is 4 rounds, most of the time it is 2.5 rounds no matter what the group make up is.

Playing Cleric in the Shroud on Thelanis is more a communal responsibility then a forced task.

[Aspenor]

Could have fooled me. Also I'm not bitter, I'm just annoyed at how "experienced" players play, and in my experience most people (at least 99.99% of the 50+ people who have zerged in groups I'm in) don't even know about some of the things in the quest because they just run through them (and if people that zerg have done every quest in the game multiple times? How come on Arg it's so hard to find elite openers that level caps need someone to open STK on elite for them?)

Though I guess you're a busy person if you need to do 20 min runs on a RAID quest, you know something 11 other people are taking time out of their day to help you with cause obviously it's not that important of a quest.

im in perma-zerg mode. i just can't help it

[Logicman69]

as a Cleric, the more rounds it takes to beat the pitfeind, the more recorces I am using. If everyone is in the center beating on the boss, that means I just have to cast ONE mass cure crit to heal them all, if they are scatered arround and ranging, I have to use more recorces to heal the ranged fighters, plus keep an eye on the 2-3 tanks in the center.

[vtecfiend99]

Wow, i just checked back in on this thread and threw up in my mouth a little.


Take a break Cuba

[Eudimio]

/Not signed. A fairly decent elite run is one with no ranged and takes between 2-4 rounds on part 4.

See, I call THAT a good run.

[Aranticus]

Why is it that everyone must melee with Harry on part 4 and 5 in the Shroud?? I was in a group that ranged him, true it took 4.5 rounds but the Clr.'s didn't run out of spell points and no one died. I've been seeing the posting "More Melee Needed" and when you have 2 clr.'s or worst a Clr. and Bard the Clr. having to go through mana pot and heal scrolls. Why, I'm begin to think it's bad tactics to melee him in part 4 and 5. And what is up with the tanks demanding a bard for song's?? What, is you build so useless the you need a more +'s to hit with your Green steel weapon!! Do you get a cookie if you kill Harry in two rounds??? Plx tell me why???? :eek:

are you on a normal or elite run? a normal shroud group where the melees have decent weapons (read: can bypass DR and possibly add 1 effect) will normally take just 2 rounds. the clerics will not need to use scrolls or pots. a good cleric can even solo heal both rounds without needing extra resources. having melees in part 4 generally mean you have an easier time in part 5. try ranging him in part 5 and you can see how harry will randomly move to 1 player and pummel him

do we get a cookie? no but i get to run all my 10 toons in shroud 20 times a week with limited playing time

[bandyman1]

Could have fooled me. Also I'm not bitter, I'm just annoyed at how "experienced" players play, and in my experience most people (at least 99.99% of the 50+ people who have zerged in groups I'm in) don't even know about some of the things in the quest because they just run through them (and if people that zerg have done every quest in the game multiple times? How come on Arg it's so hard to find elite openers that level caps need someone to open STK on elite for them?)

Because the majority of them are on their 20th+ toon, and zerged back to level 16 without flower-sniffing along the way.

I mean seriously; Do you know how many times I've ran STK? Dreams of Insanity? And you think I'ma run those normal/hard/elite on every new toon I roll? Seriously?

Though I guess you're a busy person if you need to do 20 min runs on a RAID quest, you know something 11 other people are taking time out of their day to help you with cause obviously it's not that important of a quest.

The 11 other people that I run it with are running it for the same reason I am; Ingredients, essences, shards, crafting, and/or tomes. And " we got about 3-6 other toons coming off timer today too, so let's get on with it! " So....

Again; In Red.

[Aranticus]

I take it that you play Fighter types only not Clr.s right???

most players that frequent the forums normally have 1 high level cleric. also it doesnt mean that a player with no clerics who not understand what you are saying. most decent clerics will not make remarks like yours. cleric players that keep whining about using resources should look at the group they run with and their play style

[Aranticus]

I just think it's because they want to be the center of attention. After all they have to be the hero even though they don't plan out everything from the start and play it by ear only to find that their base 12 str fighter can't hit the broad side of a barn and thus needs endless buffs to hit anything in the world even a CR .25 kolbold, just pay to rename your toon and call him MrGimpy and get it over with.

If you believe that doing as much damage as possible is important, then WHY don't you have everyone in the 12 man raid group up there pounding away at him? Battle Clerics would be the best for this as after the fight they could heal you back up. Or is it possible that you don't have the con or hit points required to take all the damage handed out and need your own personal heal bot or two to keep you from dying?

its a team effort simple as that. as a cleric, i also appreciate the buffs, prayer and recitation are 2 spells i often cast. the +1 damage adds up. with 9 or even 10 melees hitting on fiend, it can add up to hundreds of extra dps. more dps means fiend goes down faster = i use less resources

Or is it that you refuse to accept a tactic where you're not the center of attention? Oh wait I forgot anyone playing a cleric is suppose to pay 15 bucks a month for you two have fun, cause heaven forbid that everyone in the party have fun while playing this game. If you want to be the guy then I suggest playing this game where you can be http://kayin.pyoko.org/iwbtg/ then you can be the guy.

you play a cleric? i have 2

Please respond to this all Mr. Gimpy builds.

P.S. obviously this game is designed for fighters to be the center of attention since there are so many pure melee classes around like bards, rouges "you might be able to pick his pockets if you try hard enough.", and RANGERS.

no one is in the centre of attraction, there are areas where each class can shine but with synergy, the level of play is increase and less effort is required. i think your idea is melee = dps and dps = king

P.S. P.S. What's up with rouges anyway? They think that they can DPS when they get NO combat related feats. I mean I could see if they got two weapon fighting, or maybe weapon specialization, but they just think that sneak attack damage means they are a front line fighter. I mean come on they get 6 HP a level to a fighter's 10 and they don't even have that good of a to hit bonus. 3/4 of a fighter is the same as a clerics, and don't bards have the same thing? Wait I know. They are front line fighters for battle wizards and battle sorcerers who have a 1/2 to hit of that of a fighter. So I get it they hit more often the casters so that means they make good fighters who actually hit better then rouges, unless they are a Mr. Gimpy build then the fighter can only hit with Greater Heroism and Bard songs.

sneak attack is DPS (except with undead or any 100% fort mobs). you might want to look inwards before making such statements. rogues can fight with impunity with threat reduction enhancements as well as using diplomacy. and in case you are still living in 2006, divine power, madstone rage as tensers can all boost BAB to max

[Aranticus]

Wow you must run with all the good bards and clerics. I get the bards who think they can DPS and the clerics are always running out of spell points (all three of them).

wow you must run with all the bad bards and clerics

Though I do see one point of dropping him fast. I wouldn't want to spend to much time actually playing the game.

If you don't want to spend that much time playing this game why do you log on?

In paper and pencil do you only spend 14-15 minutes in a session where your party starts off and finishes?

in a pnp one may have 1-3 hrs (some longer) but everyone wants to accomplish as much as possible. do i want to spend more time in ddo? yes. but i dun need to spend all my available time one just ONE quest

P.S. this pics for all you Mr. Gimpies out there Mr. Gimpiy (http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/funny-pictures-cat-has-delusions-of-grandeur.jpg)

nice pic, describing yourself?

But wont it do more damage to have the clerics up there meleeing him if you think DPS is important. I level 16 cleric gets as many attacks as a rouge or bard and they can have green steel weapons on par with everyone and feats such as two weapon fighting

i do have runs where all the clerics are in the fray, the only problem is not everyone is build for such activity or have the skills to handle both. again, key = teamwork, synergy

[Aranticus]

Ah so it's being a loot w**** more then actually playing the game.

I'm not trying to talk about bringing fighters over rouges. Rouges do get the bonus sneak attack damage on things, the only problem is rouges don't realize "Hey if I grab agro I lose sneak attack."

again, what kind of players are you around with? furthermore, a rogue cannot 100% of the time retain the agro of harry. the agro is random. hello.... have you done shroud?

Plus I'm also talking about Argonnessen more then other servers (I don't know why but that server seems to have more people who know more about the game then anyone else but can only figure out one way of doing things unlike SARLONA who figured out how to do an all sorc run)

ask the sarlonian sorc run how much resources they used. would i participate in such a run? absolutely, just for flavor, ask them if they do a 12 sorc run week in week out. i figured the answer would be no

I also like how the hero method will work on the dragon raid (von 6), but isn't a valid method on the shroud part 4. Is the dragon that much harder to beat then harry?

lol the dragon doesnt even MOVE! not to mention there isnt a safe spot in part 4

[Aranticus]

While yes zerging is part of the game. I do play a cleric and when I DIE 3 times in a quest because half the party ran past a mob cause "If the party runs past it we wont have to deal with it." (dying to me isn't really fun)

dying isnt fun to me either but my clerics dun die 3 times in a quest. more importantly, they can hold their own

Call me crazy but I don't want to run the same quest 4 times in a hour just so I can log off one character and switch to another to do the same exact thing over again. (I guess this is why new content doesn't come out fast enough for people. They run the shroud 50 times and only ran Dreams of Insanity once)

nothing wrong with you. but running a shroud in 30 mins instead of 80 can free up alot of time for many other quests you can do. yesterday i did 1 shroud, got a guildie flagged for it, plus some other for favor runs in just 2 hrs

Yes I am striving for attention, attention to these topics. These are things that I hear people complaining about all the time, but no one really seems to do anything about it.

but I have gotten off topic with the above.

I prefer to play smarter not faster. I've seen more party wipes because people think there is only one way of doing something, and something throws a monkey wrench into that plan (such as the tanks not getting away from harry when the blades move in)

Though people have been using the saying "Time is money" you're right I've spent 15 dollars to play for a month and I'm not going to beat all the new stuff in one day.

thats where the conflict arises. others like to play it smarter AND faster

[Bilger]

P.S. obviously this game is designed for fighters to be the center of attention since there are so many pure melee classes around like bards, rouges "you might be able to pick his pockets if you try hard enough.", and RANGERS.

P.S. P.S. What's up with rouges anyway? They think that they can DPS when they get NO combat related feats. I mean I could see if they got two weapon fighting, or maybe weapon specialization, but they just think that sneak attack damage means they are a front line fighter. I mean come on they get 6 HP a level to a fighter's 10 and they don't even have that good of a to hit bonus. 3/4 of a fighter is the same as a clerics, and don't bards have the same thing? Wait I know. They are front line fighters for battle wizards and battle sorcerers who have a 1/2 to hit of that of a fighter. So I get it they hit more often the casters so that means they make good fighters who actually hit better then rouges, unless they are a Mr. Gimpy build then the fighter can only hit with Greater Heroism and Bard songs.

1. I have 3 clerics , 4 bards, 3 fighters, 1 Pali, 1 Wiz, 1 Sorc, and 1 rogue. So I can speak from all points per say.
2. Clerics can be dps have a BC that after heals his round grabs his holy burst siver greataxe and jumps on in with over 400 hp and 150+ point crits fits right in there if a second round needed. I also have a deathpriest type who heals takes his turn then if neeeded takes another turn. So people saying clerics shouldn't melee are full of BS if built for it do it. OMG that's called thinking outside the box!!!
3. Bards comments I have read about bards not meleeing is funniest thing have heard in a long time. My favorite bard stands toe to toe with the fiend better than most fighters that I know hits like a freight train (140-160 1 handed crits) has 400+ hp and evasion and survives longer and takes less damage than alot of tanks out there. Have a CC bard to who sits back and heals or helps top off heal in shrouds no way he taking a weap to the fiend. Again it is all in the build if can do it do it do it. Bards are as good of melees as fighters or better at times. Again think outside the box
3.Rogues can do as much damage with backstab and normal damage as a barb can do. My rogue who is a strength based assasin build using heavy picks does major damage to the fiend and any others out there seen crits just weap and backstab combined in the low 200 area. Evasion, high dps, and omg decent hp if built with that in mind mine has 381 hp and doesn't take much damage but gives it out. Again think outside the box!!!
4. As far as comments on fighters having egos everyone does from the cleric to the fighter. A fighter is exactly what it's name is a fighter they fight. They swing there weapons to kill things that is there job. There are others that range and intim and do other things that is there build. Think outside the box!!
5. There are many different tactics that can be used in the shroud to come out on top. It is all in what the person forming the party wants if don't like don't join period don't come wining on the forums about better tactics than what 90% of the game use. Me personally want to get in and get out the faster the better.

Think outside the box and maybe you might see that the icon doesn't just mean they are this and can't do this. People that say that is what you are that is all you can do are ignorant and need to get heads out of the sand and watch and see what others are capable of with there builds.

[Bilger]

thats where the conflict arises. others like to play it smarter AND faster

Love this comment!!

[sjwalker1973]

Wow you must run with all the good bards and clerics. I get the bards who think they can DPS and the clerics are always running out of spell points (all three of them).

Though I do see one point of dropping him fast. I wouldn't want to spend to much time actually playing the game.

If you don't want to spend that much time playing this game why do you log on?

In paper and pencil do you only spend 14-15 minutes in a session where your party starts off and finishes?

P.S. this pics for all you Mr. Gimpies out there Mr. Gimpiy (http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/funny-pictures-cat-has-delusions-of-grandeur.jpg)



But wont it do more damage to have the clerics up there meleeing him if you think DPS is important. I level 16 cleric gets as many attacks as a rouge or bard and they can have green steel weapons on par with everyone and feats such as two weapon fighting

You forget your place in the raid group mechanic. It's one thing being in a group where you know everyone and everyone is self sufficient. It's a totally different animal being in a PUG. Unless you tell the raid leader that you're a battle cleric, most assume that you will help heal in the important battles and pay attention. Unfortunately many battle clerics in the game do not keep an eye on the health bars and assume another cleric is healing when there might be some other thing going on that they have to worry about, like keeping a caster alive.

[sjwalker1973]

[QUOTE=P.S. P.S. What's up with rouges anyway? They think that they can DPS when they get NO combat related feats. I mean I could see if they got two weapon fighting, or maybe weapon specialization, but they just think that sneak attack damage means they are a front line fighter. I mean come on they get 6 HP a level to a fighter's 10 and they don't even have that good of a to hit bonus. 3/4 of a fighter is the same as a clerics, and don't bards have the same thing? Wait I know. They are front line fighters for battle wizards and battle sorcerers who have a 1/2 to hit of that of a fighter. So I get it they hit more often the casters so that means they make good fighters who actually hit better then rouges, unless they are a Mr. Gimpy build then the fighter can only hit with Greater Heroism and Bard songs.[/QUOTE]

You do know other than a barbarian, the rogue can be one of the best DPS based classes in the game if built correctly? Yes they can be squishy if they don't build them right, but they can also hit like heck. They can't sustain it like a front line fighter, but they can dish it out for a bit. With the right equipment and feat combinations, rogues can be dangerous.

[Nick_RC]

Bring out the noobs.

[halls]

I'm all for the zerj :)

[Ollathir]

http://img.funnyanimatedgifs.net/smileys/36_8_2.gif

There are certain things some people may never understand.





BTW Nice.


A fool finds no pleasure in understanding but delights in airing his own opinions.~Proverbs 18:2 .

[Gunga]

Dude, I came to this thread waaaaay late, but i gotta say, you are in fact the most ignorant person I have ever ran across on these boards. You take the cake as biggest jackass. Period.

Lets look at what a rogue brings to the table shall we. Well, over 300 hp's, Improved evasion, mid 30's reflex save (at the lowest), self healing, self buffs, and w/ only a little effort low 60's ac. Oh yeah, +8d6 sneak attack damage, in addition to base weapon damage and effects, plus strength, oh and damage enhancements. Yeah, totally worthless. I mean, they take less damage than your "fighters" and deal more damage than your "fighters". Maybe you should remove your head from your rectum before you make statements like this. Just because its beyond your level of comprehension to play one of the most difficult classes in the game, or just because you cant think outside the box and make a non flavor of the month build work doesnt mean the rest of us are likewise impaired.

**** rogues, you gimp. Go respec your toon. Wait, what thread is this?

[Aspenor]

You do know other than a barbarian, the rogue can be one of the best DPS based classes in the game if built correctly? Yes they can be squishy if they don't build them right, but they can also hit like heck. They can't sustain it like a front line fighter, but they can dish it out for a bit. With the right equipment and feat combinations, rogues can be dangerous.

correction, rogues outDPS barbarians without really even trying.

[rezo]

I think I shouldn't post anything any more just look at what happens. I would like my thread back plx.

[Eudimio]

correction, rogues outDPS barbarians without really even trying.

So true.

Rogues dual-wielding muckbanes can out-dps mineral 2 greataxe-wielding barbarians.

Oh, and they're not even #2 on the dps list. They're looking up at rangers also.

[Aranticus]

I think I shouldn't post anything any more just look at what happens. I would like my thread back plx.

http://web.jfet.org/~kwantam/images/pwned-toilet.jpg

[Kiranselie]

**** rogues, you gimp. Go respec your toon. Wait, what thread is this?

Gunga, just because I'm better than you in everyway imaginable doesnt mean you have to go get all ****y :D

[rezo]

I'm not trying to talk about bringing fighters over rouges. Rouges do get the bonus sneak attack damage on things, the only problem is rouges don't realize "Hey if I grab agro I lose sneak attack."
-Show_me_the_Platinum

again, what kind of players are you around with? furthermore, a rogue cannot 100% of the time retain the agro of harry. the agro is random. hello.... have you done shroud? -Aranticus Aranticus


I now know that you don't run the Shroud Aranticus, Harry don't randomly agro. this now shows it. I have seen players range him and pull agro then he will chase them down as they run around in part 4, it's true on part 5 not part 4. You might want to pay attention in there if you do the Shroud.

[Aranticus]

I now know that you don't run the Shroud Aranticus, Harry don't randomly agro. this now shows it. I have seen players range him and pull agro then he will chase them down as they run around in part 4. You might want to pay attention in there if you do the Shroud.

lol do more shroud. people who have done enough shroud will tell you otherwise. i've seen harry chase after the caster, cleric, bard as well. if you play a melee then you would know that in a group where DPS is evenly spread, and harry tightly surrounded by the melees, you can see how he switches from 1 player to another. just basing 1 observation to debunk what is a widely accepted fact is foolish

that said, a player can still get his agro by being able to do obscene amounts of dps on him relative to the rest of the party. however, this is unlike in vod where sally will only attack whoever has his agro on. harry will still jump on another player quite frequently despite someone having his agro. a rogue with subtle backstab enhancements should not be able to pull his agro. in all my runs, i've yet to see harry with firm agro on a rogue so much so that the rogue isnt getting sneak attacks

out of curosity, how many shrouds have you done?

[Junts]

lol do more shroud. people who have done enough shroud will tell you otherwise. i've seen harry chase after the caster, cleric, bard as well. if you play a melee then you would know that in a group where DPS is evenly spread, and harry tightly surrounded by the melees, you can see how he switches from 1 player to another. just basing 1 observation to debunk what is a widely accepted fact is foolish

that said, a player can still get his agro by being able to do obscene amounts of dps on him relative to the rest of the party. however, this is unlike in vod where sally will only attack whoever has his agro on. harry will still jump on another player quite frequently despite someone having his agro. a rogue with subtle backstab enhancements should not be able to pull his agro. in all my runs, i've yet to see harry with firm agro on a rogue so much so that the rogue isnt getting sneak attacks

out of curosity, how many shrouds have you done?



Honestly, I find that it is the tendancy of harry to pick a target and aggro on it for a while regardless of the dps its doing to him; I've had him aggro to my paladin and bard who were clearly not the lead dpsers for extensive periods.

I'm pretty sure he has a number of combat behaviors that select randomly based on whether or not people are in melee range, not their relative dps.

[Ollathir]

I think I shouldn't post anything any more just look at what happens. I would like my thread back plx.

ok.


I believe your thread started with a question as to whether or not melee is a bad tactic in part 4-5 shroud.


Why is it that everyone must melee with Harry on part 4 and 5 in the Shroud??
-Not everyone does, you say so yourself here. As to "Why do most people tend to melee Harry on parts 4 & 5 of the Shroud?" Because if they can do it without wasting resources and time, it would make sense to do it that way, right?


I was in a group that ranged him, true it took 4.5 rounds but the Clr.'s didn't run out of spell points and no one died.
-Nice job. Grats.


I've been seeing the posting "More Melee Needed" and when you have 2 clr.'s or worst a Clr. and Bard the Clr. having to go through mana pot and heal scrolls.
-The group leader in most cases may post something like "Tanks" or "Exp. only" or whatever they like, it's their group. You shouln't begrudge anyone for wanting to do it their way. If you don't approve, start your own group or join a different one.


Why, I'm begin to think it's bad tactics to melee him in part 4 and 5. And what is up with the tanks demanding a bard for song's?? What, is you build so useless the you need a more +'s to hit with your Green steel weapon!! Do you get a cookie if you kill Harry in two rounds??? Plx tell me why???? :eek:

-Yeah, thats evident but very few, myself included will agree with you as to this being a bad tactic. The Shroud, for me at least, made me adapt and forced me to build more solid characters in general, some geared more towards melee DPS. If I saw and LFM up for a ranged shroud run, my Barb would have to sit it out. The first several runs in the Shroud when it first came out, taking Harry down in the first round was unthinkable. Now that it is, it just doesnt make sense to me, to do it differently.

Before the Shroud I don't recall grouping with many Bards. As far as the songs are concerned, if a character really is a useless build... well you can pour syrup on **** if you want, still won't make it taste like pancakes.

No I don't usually get cookies, but if your offering my favorite are Peanut Butter with butterscotch chips. Thanks.

[Thriand]

I'm not trying to talk about bringing fighters over rouges. Rouges do get the bonus sneak attack damage on things, the only problem is rouges don't realize "Hey if I grab agro I lose sneak attack."
-Show_me_the_Platinum

again, what kind of players are you around with? furthermore, a rogue cannot 100% of the time retain the agro of harry. the agro is random. hello.... have you done shroud? -Aranticus Aranticus


I now know that you don't run the Shroud Aranticus, Harry don't randomly agro. this now shows it. I have seen players range him and pull agro then he will chase them down as they run around in part 4, it's true on part 5 not part 4. You might want to pay attention in there if you do the Shroud.

Harry won't leave the center if you don't use deception on him. Deception does weird things to raid bosses, even the Abbot runs around like a chicken with his head cut off when hit with deception.

On the note of bards and rogues, bards aren't about the + to hit, its about the +6-8 to damage that it granted to the entire party which adds up fast when 8-10 people are swinging at something. I mean fighters will take 2 feats to grant +4 damage to their swings, bards spend 4 AP and grant EVERYONE +6. Rogues do plenty of DPS and I don't care what you say Harry has random aggro like many other raid bosses so they will get their sneak attacks but his fortification will nulify some of that, however a properly built rogue isn't as squishy as some people believe, my rogue has a 70+ self buffed AC and evasion, I can tank harry all day with little worry of him hurting me.

But honestly I think your frustration is misplaced, either you have been in really bad groups or you are just fairly inexperienced in the shroud. I run my cleric every 3 days and don't even have to touch so much as even a scroll of heal by mass healing all the melees, extending the rounds by ranging him isn't going to save me any resources because then the heals I throw are going to be spread out about the map and not concentrated into one source. The more rounds it takes for Harry to go down the worse off it is on the clerics and I know the vast majority of clerics will agree with me on that.

[Aspenor]

also remember that the more rounds Harry lives, the more rounds you have to fight devils and kill gnolls. Both of these are drains on the SP of clerics and arcanes.

Less rounds is better.

[Big-Dex]

The difference is a 30 minute or less shroud or a 60 minute or more shroud run. ' Nuff Said! :p

Dex was here.

[sylvester]

the big thing i have about part 4 is the blades. staying in with harry doing delay blast fireball back to back and blades can/has wipe the tanks out. i understand the push to end it in that round,but i have seen harrys life so high that there will be a next round and the tanks wanting staying in. this where bad tactics shows and getting to be normal.

the mindset of some DPSers that harry needs to be hit very sec. has overwork the healing that somepeople do or willing use pots or scolls for. if i have lag on healing and say it and people need to get out. i all the time someone staying in and saying to heal them over the people running out.not good tactics.


on bards and rogues ran with good ones and bad ones, with one in a raid bad ones stand out more.

[Show_me_the_Platinum]

i do have runs where all the clerics are in the fray, the only problem is not everyone is build for such activity or have the skills to handle both. again, key = teamwork, synergy

That's the problem 99% of zerging groups have individuals that are like this "Screw the party I'm going it alone cause I've run this quest before with my level cap toon." then the level 3 rouge tries to solo the flesh golem giant at the end of STK. (I bet most of the people that have been shooting me down didn't know that the 'giant' at the end of STK is a construct)


thats where the conflict arises. others like to play it smarter AND faster

Oxymoron just like the people that say it.

Though if people think raids shouldn't take more then 30 minutes I can see we got all the wow rejects, raids there can take days

Aranticus... I don't have delusions of grandeur. First off all I've never said I was the best player, I just talk about those worst then me. Second of all... I'm not delusional. (and before those who say could have fooled me... well I say the same thing about you knowing how to have fun with a game)

[boldarblood]

That's the problem 99% of zerging groups have individuals that are like this "Screw the party I'm going it alone cause I've run this quest before with my level cap toon." then the level 3 rouge tries to solo the flesh golem giant at the end of STK. (I bet most of the people that have been shooting me down didn't know that the 'giant' at the end of STK is a construct)


Those are not zergers, those are bad players. A true zerger does not need the party.

[Show_me_the_Platinum]

Those are not zergers, those are bad players. A true zerger does not need the party.

If you don't want to play with other people why play online?

[Aranticus]

Honestly, I find that it is the tendancy of harry to pick a target and aggro on it for a while regardless of the dps its doing to him; I've had him aggro to my paladin and bard who were clearly not the lead dpsers for extensive periods.

I'm pretty sure he has a number of combat behaviors that select randomly based on whether or not people are in melee range, not their relative dps.

the part 4 part is not quite established but if you look at his behaviour in part 5, he does primarily focus on the dpser (like 40% of the time). this is correct in assumption that both part 4 and 5 have the same mechanics. of coz i agree that he still randomly hit others ie fireballing the cleric who is doing nothing but just healing. even when using intimidate, the agro cannot be held 100%

[Aranticus]

the big thing i have about part 4 is the blades. staying in with harry doing delay blast fireball back to back and blades can/has wipe the tanks out. i understand the push to end it in that round,but i have seen harrys life so high that there will be a next round and the tanks wanting staying in. this where bad tactics shows and getting to be normal.

the mindset of some DPSers that harry needs to be hit very sec. has overwork the healing that somepeople do or willing use pots or scolls for. if i have lag on healing and say it and people need to get out. i all the time someone staying in and saying to heal them over the people running out.not good tactics.


on bards and rogues ran with good ones and bad ones, with one in a raid bad ones stand out more.

its not bad tactics to stay in. a good leader will put the clerics on healing the solid tanks that will stay in to fight when needed. there is also a certain amount of hp needed in order to survive the carnage, ~250-300 if evasion, >350 no evasion. many of the melees do not know their limits

a good leader will make the judgement call ie harry at 5% "fight thru". the melees will muscle their way through. the melees must also have trust in their clerics to heal them and stay. problem arises when the leader as a group to fight thru when harry is at 75% (waste of sp), when lead tanks pull out (wasted healing) or when clerics retreat to SW (no healing)

[Aranticus]

Oxymoron just like the people that say it.

Though if people think raids shouldn't take more then 30 minutes I can see we got all the wow rejects, raids there can take days

Aranticus... I don't have delusions of grandeur. First off all I've never said I was the best player, I just talk about those worst then me. Second of all... I'm not delusional. (and before those who say could have fooled me... well I say the same thing about you knowing how to have fun with a game)

not an oxymoron to people who can do both at the same time

neither am i, there are many players on my servers that are much better than me and i have the privilege to roll with them. my experience is thus very different from yours as its obvious which level ya at

[Junts]

its not bad tactics to stay in. a good leader will put the clerics on healing the solid tanks that will stay in to fight when needed. there is also a certain amount of hp needed in order to survive the carnage, ~250-300 if evasion, >350 no evasion. many of the melees do not know their limits

a good leader will make the judgement call ie harry at 5% "fight thru". the melees will muscle their way through. the melees must also have trust in their clerics to heal them and stay. problem arises when the leader as a group to fight thru when harry is at 75% (waste of sp), when lead tanks pull out (wasted healing) or when clerics retreat to SW (no healing)


there are two good times to fight through: when it means you will 1 round him, and when its the difference between 55 and 45% for the next round (eg the 2/3 round line) - 90%+ of shrouds now fall between those somewhere.

[Show_me_the_Platinum]

its not bad tactics to stay in. a good leader will put the clerics on healing the solid tanks that will stay in to fight when needed. there is also a certain amount of hp needed in order to survive the carnage, ~250-300 if evasion, >350 no evasion. many of the melees do not know their limits

Since when does evasion work against the blades? Are you sure YOU'VE run the shroud raid?

If evasion works against the blades then why take fighters and barbarians, take all rouges, monks, and rangers who have evasion (or anyone else who's build includes evasion), Also barbarian's trap sense would not work with the blades because... get ready for it... The blades aren't a trap.

You know you're right. I should start listening to the super munchins of toon town.

Though I'm starting to think that the only people who post on the forums are people who think they must justify their playing style

[Delt]

Since when does evasion work against the blades? Are you sure YOU'VE run the shroud raid?

If evasion works against the blades then why take fighters and barbarians, take all rouges, monks, and rangers who have evasion (or anyone else who's build includes evasion), Also barbarian's trap sense would not work with the blades because... get ready for it... The blades aren't a trap.

You know you're right. I should start listening to the super munchins of toon town.

I don't see where he says evasion works against the blades...maybe you should re-read what you quoted.

At a certain point, whether it is at the conclusion of this thread or years from now, you'll hopefully see yourself in the proper light - you don't know what you are talking about.

[Junts]

Since when does evasion work against the blades? Are you sure YOU'VE run the shroud raid?

If evasion works against the blades then why take fighters and barbarians, take all rouges, monks, and rangers who have evasion (or anyone else who's build includes evasion), Also barbarian's trap sense would not work with the blades because... get ready for it... The blades aren't a trap.

You know you're right. I should start listening to the super munchins of toon town.

Though I'm starting to think that the only people who post on the forums are people who think they must justify their playing style


You're like, intentionally ********: the primary danger in part 4 is delayed-blast fireball. evasion toons have a lot less to worry about regarding dbf, and therefore may melee with a loit less hp than non-evaders. both may die during the blades if they fail a save, but evasion toons have better reflex as a whole and do not have the 'i just saved against two dbf in a row there goes 300 hp' issue that a non-evader can have.

[bandyman1]

Since when does evasion work against the blades? Are you sure YOU'VE run the shroud raid?

If evasion works against the blades then why take fighters and barbarians, take all rouges, monks, and rangers who have evasion (or anyone else who's build includes evasion), Also barbarian's trap sense would not work with the blades because... get ready for it... The blades aren't a trap.

You know you're right. I should start listening to the super munchins of toon town.

Though I'm starting to think that the only people who post on the forums are people who think they must justify their playing style

Wow. Just wow.

Read what you quote much?


The reason you need less HPs if you have evasion is because;

With evasion, blades+delayed blast fireball don't = death, at sub 300 hp or so.

Does that make sence? Or do you need a map drawn?

[bobbryan2]

Wow. Just wow.

Read what you quote much?


The reason you need less HPs if you have evasion is because;

With evasion, blades+delayed blast fireball don't = death, at sub 300 hp or so.

Does that make sence? Or do you need a map drawn?

Can you draw me a map?

[Hobgoblin]

just to derail this thread further, does evasion work on the blades?

(usually only play casters in there, just got my rogue in there, who happens to melle the fiend quite will)

[Show_me_the_Platinum]

its not bad tactics to stay in. a good leader will put the clerics on healing the solid tanks that will stay in to fight when needed. there is also a certain amount of hp needed in order to survive the carnage, ~250-300 if evasion, >350 no evasion. many of the melees do not know their limits

So what he is saying is you only need 250-300 HP to survive the blades, which have been known to wipe out full HP tanks? (con build barbarian dwarves or WF (if they are lucky enough to get picked) I guess are what he was talking about with >350 HP)

P.S. I got a tank with 575 HP who runs out of the blades cause he can't survive them without costing the clerics a lot of SP.

I got a sorc with 268 HP and evasion. Can he tank Harry to... Please I'll use two dwarven axes to fit into the crowd... ok kopeshes for the Argonnessen

I do feel sorry for the people with 301 HP to 350 HP... some people must not take them into raids no matter what they have.

I also picked up on this
many of the melees do not know their limits
Do I detect a bit of "He is right but I don't want to admit it"?

For those new people that don't know. To get to the portable hole you have to double click on a collapsed one in your backpack really fast... if that don't work alt + F4

[Mhykke]

I got a sorc with 268 HP and evasion. Can he tank Harry to...

Yes, he should be able to.

I have a sorc with 283 hit points and no evasion...sometimes when bored of doing the same old thing in there I'll go in and melee the fiend, with a cold shield on.

I don't see the big deal.

[Show_me_the_Platinum]

Yes, he should be able to.

I have a sorc with 283 hit points and no evasion...sometimes when bored of doing the same old thing in there I'll go in and melee the fiend, with a cold shield on.

I don't see the big deal.

Yay validation for casters to go melee with harry in part four, now there is no reason we shouldn't be taken cause with two dwarven axes we can DPS with the best of them. (Now lets get the bard to play that funky music)

(look my posting count is going up. I should get a special tittle)

[bandyman1]

So what he is saying is you only need 250-300 HP to survive the blades, which have been known to wipe out full HP tanks? (con build barbarian dwarves or WF (if they are lucky enough to get picked) I guess are what he was talking about with >350 HP)

What game have you been playing? My elven ( a race not exactly noted for Con ) pure pally has over 400 HPs. A " Con built " dwarven barb is closer to 650-800 HPs. If blades are wiping full HP meless in one round, then you're either playing with the ****tiest healers on the sever, or the squishiest " tanks " ever.



P.S. I got a tank with 575 HP who runs out of the blades cause he can't survive them without costing the clerics a lot of SP.

LMAO, this is the stupidest statement I've ever read. Why would you care how much SP the cleric throws if you're going to finish in one round? Hello??? It's not like he's going to need it because he doesn't feel like shrining before part 5.

I got a sorc with 268 HP and evasion. Can he tank Harry to... Please I'll use two dwarven axes to fit into the crowd... ok kopeshes for the Argonnessen

I do feel sorry for the people with 301 HP to 350 HP... some people must not take them into raids no matter what they have.

I also picked up on this
Do I detect a bit of "He is right but I don't want to admit it"?

No. What you detect, is a bit of " Good God. This guy and his friends must be the biggest gimps on Argo ".

For those new people that don't know. To get to the portable hole you have to double click on a collapsed one in your backpack really fast... if that don't work alt + F4

Replies in Red.

[Mhykke]

Yay validation for casters to go melee with harry in part four, now there is no reason we shouldn't be taken cause with two dwarven axes we can DPS with the best of them. (Now lets get the bard to play that funky music)

(look my posting count is going up. I should get a special tittle)

You can do anything you wish, as long as you don't suck.

[Hobgoblin]

You can do anything you wish, as long as you don't suck.

too late lol

[Show_me_the_Platinum]

Replies in Red.
Mine in green... hey I can do BB code to.


So what he is saying is you only need 250-300 HP to survive the blades, which have been known to wipe out full HP tanks? (con build barbarian dwarves or WF (if they are lucky enough to get picked) I guess are what he was talking about with >350 HP)

What game have you been playing? My elven ( a race not exactly noted for Con pure pally ) has over 400 HPs. A " Con built " dwarven barb is closer to 650-800 HPs. If blades are wiping full HP meless in one round, then you're either playing with the ****tiest healers on the sever, or the squishiest " tanks " ever.

Obviously sarcasm is wasted on you. I'm sure there are hundreds of builds out there with over 350 HP. That aren't barbarian dwarves and WF.

P.S. I got a tank with 575 HP who runs out of the blades cause he can't survive them without costing the clerics a lot of SP.

LMAO, this is the stupidest statement I've ever read. Why would you care how much SP the cleric throws if you're going to finish in one round? Hello??? It's not like he's going to need it because he doesn't feel like shrining before part 5.

Secondly obviously you think anything under full HP on harry means you'll be able to drop him even after the blades are in the middle. It's not worth it to do it with anything more then 10% health on him.

I got a sorc with 268 HP and evasion. Can he tank Harry to... Please I'll use two dwarven axes to fit into the crowd... ok kopeshes for the Argonnessen

I do feel sorry for the people with 301 HP to 350 HP... some people must not take them into raids no matter what they have.

I also picked up on this
Do I detect a bit of "He is right but I don't want to admit it"?

No. What you detect, is a bit of " Good God. This guy and his friends must be the biggest gimps on Argo ".

Do I detect a bit of "Personal insulting a specific player where mine have been against the legions of nameless Mr. Gimpies out there." (I apologies if there is any Mr. Gimpiy named toons out there, I'm sorry for taking your toon's name in vain on the forum)

For those new people that don't know. To get to the portable hole you have to double click on a collapsed one in your backpack really fast... if that don't work alt + F4

[Show_me_the_Platinum]

my friend has a bet going with me that this thread will go 7 pages by the end of the night. Help me win it by not getting past 6 pages.

[Eudimio]

Yay validation for casters to go melee with harry in part four, now there is no reason we shouldn't be taken cause with two dwarven axes we can DPS with the best of them. (Now lets get the bard to play that funky music)

(look my posting count is going up. I should get a special tittle)

Without greater two-weapon fighting, you have 20% less attacks than those that do.

That's why my wizard uses a mineral 2 greataxe.

[Show_me_the_Platinum]

Oh btw I've heard a interesting rumor, the devs can actually take control of harry just to mess with the players. Can someone tell me if this is true?

Help me Tolero! You're my only hope... *zeeet Help me Tolero! You're my only hope... *zeeet

[Show_me_the_Platinum]

Without greater two-weapon fighting, you have 20% less attacks than those that do.

That's why my wizard uses a mineral 2 greataxe.

I didn't think of that one

[Eudimio]

its not bad tactics to stay in. a good leader will put the clerics on healing the solid tanks that will stay in to fight when needed. there is also a certain amount of hp needed in order to survive the carnage, ~250-300 if evasion, >350 no evasion. many of the melees do not know their limits


In my experience, you can survive with 250 hitpoints if you have (quickened) self-healing. 300 is so much better though.

[Show_me_the_Platinum]

Hey guys thanks for not going 7 pages on this thing. I get my next moth paid for and have $5 left over... I think I'll buy a beholder cookie.

[Aranticus]

So what he is saying is you only need 250-300 HP to survive the blades, which have been known to wipe out full HP tanks? (con build barbarian dwarves or WF (if they are lucky enough to get picked) I guess are what he was talking about with >350 HP)

nope, what i'm saying is blades do not kill you. its the combination of blades, fireballs and melee attacks from harry that will kill you. if you have 250-300 hp and with evasion (with a decent reflex), the fireballs are not going to be a problem and hence it will make the blades easier to survive. a melee without evasion does not have that luxury and hence would need a higher base hit points

dwarven/wf con builds are not the only melees that can go beyond 350. any regular melee can have 400+ plus hp. a con item, gfl, minos, toughness feat, argon favor and racial enhancements can add 144 hp more

P.S. I got a tank with 575 HP who runs out of the blades cause he can't survive them without costing the clerics a lot of SP.

of coz its going to cost the clerics more sp to heal thru, which is why there is only 2 situations when a group is going to do that. the first is to kill him within that pass and the 2nd is when you get harry to approx 55% so that you can make it a 2 pass run. other than that, its kinda pointless to waste sp

surviving part 4 isnt really rocket science but many still cant get it right. evasion is not necessary but its a huge bonus. a good reflex is important. no point having 575 hp but cant make a reflex save. fire prot as well as cold shield serves to reduce the damage from the fireballs so your hps act as a buffer for the blade damage

I got a sorc with 268 HP and evasion. Can he tank Harry to... Please I'll use two dwarven axes to fit into the crowd... ok kopeshes for the Argonnessen

not too long ago, a caster posted screenshot of his battle with harry. it is possible but key points here is the use of cold shield, smart positioning and timely heals

I do feel sorry for the people with 301 HP to 350 HP... some people must not take them into raids no matter what they have.

so much so for understanding stuff literally

I also picked up on this
Do I detect a bit of "He is right but I don't want to admit it"?

For those new people that don't know. To get to the portable hole you have to double click on a collapsed one in your backpack really fast... if that don't work alt + F4

ice storm is a superb spell to use on harry too! :rolleyes:

[FluffyCalico]

In my experience, you can survive with 250 hitpoints if you have (quickened) self-healing. 300 is so much better though.

250 without aggro yes
250 with aggro hm

[sylvester]

most poeple will not pull out when the blades are in and harry is not going down.this is the problem. not hitting harry every sec. or i so good it does not matter

[Boldrin]

Why is it that everyone must melee with Harry on part 4 and 5 in the Shroud?? I was in a group that ranged him, true it took 4.5 rounds but the Clr.'s didn't run out of spell points and no one died. I've been seeing the posting "More Melee Needed" and when you have 2 clr.'s or worst a Clr. and Bard the Clr. having to go through mana pot and heal scrolls. Why, I'm begin to think it's bad tactics to melee him in part 4 and 5. And what is up with the tanks demanding a bard for song's?? What, is you build so useless the you need a more +'s to hit with your Green steel weapon!! Do you get a cookie if you kill Harry in two rounds??? Plx tell me why???? :eek:

I PUG speed Shrouds regularly and any mediocre group can take down Harry in a max of 2 rounds, clerics just need to learn to heal properly. I haven't bought scrolls on my cleric in almost 2 years.

[Show_me_the_Platinum]

Aranticus you know there is a slight contradicion in your tatics. I know for a fact getting hit by anything damages equipment, and the damage from blades is unavoidable. So how is it efficient to do something that you know is going to cost you money and possibly lose equipment? (I've seen lots of "2-3 Arrows broken" or "Potion of X broken")


I got a special title for you, but unfortunately the filter wont let it through.

So many people getting nasty with me? Have a struck something that people don't want to admit is true? Is this tactic and others like it the reason it's hard to find a cleric on Argo? Why so many are getting mad at the tanks who go toe to toe with Harry and call it a party wipe the second after they die?

[Aspenor]

Aranticus you know there is a slight contradicion in your tatics. I know for a fact getting hit by anything damages equipment, and the damage from blades is unavoidable. So how is it efficient to do something that you know is going to cost you money and possibly lose equipment? (I've seen lots of "2-3 Arrows broken" or "Potion of X broken")



So many people getting nasty with me? Have a struck something that people don't want to admit is true? Is this tactic and others like it the reason it's hard to find a cleric on Argo? Why so many are getting mad at the tanks who go toe to toe with Harry and call it a party wipe the second after they die?

I'm not sure what crummy groups you're in, but on Argo I have no problems in the shroud, ever. Maybe you need to reconsider the people you group with instead of complaining about tactics.

[gfunk]

One of the biggest risks in multi-round shrouds is that your cleric (s) gets taken out with a fireball. Prolonging the duration of part 4 only increases the likelyhood that a non-evasion cleric might get dropped.

I have seen very few groups in the last several months that are incapable of taking Harry out in two rounds or less. I usually take 2 clerics, and get 1 to heal the first round and the other to heal the 2nd round (usually get the squishier one to heal first). It is a very rare occassion when the cleric would have to drink any mana pots in order to keep the group up. Typically this would only occur when the cleric is spamming heals to try and keep up with the lag (I've been in groups where the heals have 2 or 3 second delays which results in the neccesity for some over healing).

Doing an all ranged shroud really restricts you to bringing in mostly rangers (or at least builds that have 2 ranger levels at minimum). The dps from a character without bow strength is totally insufficient. For practicalities sake, I am not going to wait around for an extended period of time trying to find the right party make up, so any strategy for part 4 needs to accomadate a typical cross section of players.

There might still be groups out there that only have sufficient melee power to get Harry down in 3, 4 or more rounds, but I believe that would only occur in very rare situations where random chance has thrown a bunch of very low dps players into one shroud. It might have been common when the shroud first came out, but since then most people have figured out that they need to use DR/ bypassing weapons.

In part 5 if the party dps is especially low (or if the cleric is overhealing), then sometimes I'll call a break to range harry while the clerics dance in the pools. The only times the pools might run out anymore is when running on elite.

Ranging Harry might be ok for a theme shroud, but for the bulk of the runs melee is the way to go if you want to get the party formed and the raid run in a timely fashion.

[Aranticus]

Aranticus you know there is a slight contradicion in your tatics. I know for a fact getting hit by anything damages equipment, and the damage from blades is unavoidable. So how is it efficient to do something that you know is going to cost you money and possibly lose equipment? (I've seen lots of "2-3 Arrows broken" or "Potion of X broken")

you are correct. however, if you were to look at the value of the items broken compared to what a cleric will spend additionally then its more than work it. the highest value pots a melee will have cant even compare to 1 major pot. oh wait, you dun play a cleric....

So many people getting nasty with me? Have a struck something that people don't want to admit is true? Is this tactic and others like it the reason it's hard to find a cleric on Argo? Why so many are getting mad at the tanks who go toe to toe with Harry and call it a party wipe the second after they die?

nope. its you're just exactly like muffinboi. annoying and alway sprouting things in which experience is lacking.... wait, you are slightly better. at least you done raids.... :eek:

[Thriand]

Aranticus you know there is a slight contradicion in your tatics. I know for a fact getting hit by anything damages equipment, and the damage from blades is unavoidable. So how is it efficient to do something that you know is going to cost you money and possibly lose equipment? (I've seen lots of "2-3 Arrows broken" or "Potion of X broken")



So many people getting nasty with me? Have a struck something that people don't want to admit is true? Is this tactic and others like it the reason it's hard to find a cleric on Argo? Why so many are getting mad at the tanks who go toe to toe with Harry and call it a party wipe the second after they die?

I think the general consensus is you need better groups. I haven't gone through any resources on my cleric through a shroud run is 15+ runs. If I ever caught scared little pansies not going in to melee harry then I'd start complaining. If the tactic sucks that much for you then advertise in you LFM that you are gonna do "ranged only pt 4 and pt 5" and see how many clerics want to join you then.

[Kiranselie]

Aranticus you know there is a slight contradicion in your tatics. I know for a fact getting hit by anything damages equipment, and the damage from blades is unavoidable. So how is it efficient to do something that you know is going to cost you money and possibly lose equipment? (I've seen lots of "2-3 Arrows broken" or "Potion of X broken")



So many people getting nasty with me? Have a struck something that people don't want to admit is true? Is this tactic and others like it the reason it's hard to find a cleric on Argo? Why so many are getting mad at the tanks who go toe to toe with Harry and call it a party wipe the second after they die?

No, my disdain of you has nothing to do w/ either of the tactics being discussed here, I know from over 100 shrouds that toe to toe melee is the more efficient method and I have no problem letting those who disagree continue in their beliefs. My problem w/ you is that you make asinine claims about who is and is not a melee class, and you belittle my main character with your ridiculous statements regarding rogues. Someone pegged you best when they compared you to muffinman.

Like i said earlier, just because it is beyond YOUR skill and intelligence level to play a melee bard, melee caster, or rogue doesnt mean they are not viable melee characters. Most of the time they are far superior to your "fighters" because of the self sufficiency of said characters. I know my rogue doesnt need a pocket buffer/healer can the same be said of your melee's?

[bandyman1]

Like i said earlier, just because it is beyond YOUR skill and intelligence level play a melee bard, melee caster, or rogue doesnt mean they are not viable melee characters. Most of the time they are far superior to your "fighters" because of the self sufficiency of said characters. I know my rogue doesnt need a pocket buffer/healer can the same be said of your melee's?

Apparently not. Since the blades can wipe his melee at full HPs.


Nursemaid anyone?

[Gunga]

No, my disdain of you has nothing to do w/ either of the tactics being discussed here, I know from over 100 shrouds that toe to toe melee is the more efficient method and I have no problem letting those who disagree continue in their beliefs. My problem w/ you is that you make asinine claims about who is and is not a melee class, and you belittle my main character with your ridiculous statements regarding rogues. Someone pegged you best when they compared you to muffinman.

Like i said earlier, just because it is beyond YOUR skill and intelligence level play a melee bard, melee caster, or rogue doesnt mean they are not viable melee characters. Most of the time they are far superior to your "fighters" because of the self sufficiency of said characters. I know my rogue doesnt need a pocket buffer/healer can the same be said of your melee's?

Ding has come through your headphones so often that you don't even hear it anymore.

[Trunk-Monkey]

I think this thread has convinced me that Argo has the players. Plat - Please stay there... do not come over to Khyber, you wouldnt like it much.

Also... whats a rouge? Did they open up a new class?

[Timjc86]

Also... whats a rouge? Did they open up a new class?

Ladies, please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it's a form of makeup. Honestly, I love bringing extra rouges on shroud runs. If you have enough of it, just doll-up the tank. Harry sometimes think his newphew's coming to visit, until he gets hit in the face with an axe.

Even in the worst case (the rouge-ruse fails, party wipe, etc), at least you still look pretty.

[Trunk-Monkey]

Ladies, please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it's a form of makeup. Honestly, I love bringing extra rouges on shroud runs. If you have enough of it, just doll-up the tank. Harry sometimes think his newphew's coming to visit, until he gets hit in the face with an axe.

Even in the worst case (the rouge-ruse fails, party wipe, etc), at least you still look pretty.


No wonder Booch is so ugly, I didnt put enough Rouge in the initial build spec.... ;)

[Show_me_the_Platinum]

No, my disdain of you has nothing to do w/ either of the tactics being discussed here, I know from over 100 shrouds that toe to toe melee is the more efficient method and I have no problem letting those who disagree continue in their beliefs. My problem w/ you is that you make asinine claims about who is and is not a melee class, and you belittle my main character with your ridiculous statements regarding rogues. Someone pegged you best when they compared you to muffinman.

Like i said earlier, just because it is beyond YOUR skill and intelligence level play a melee bard, melee caster, or rogue doesnt mean they are not viable melee characters. Most of the time they are far superior to your "fighters" because of the self sufficiency of said characters. I know my rogue doesnt need a pocket buffer/healer can the same be said of your melee's?

Really? My skills are lacking cause I have a fighter that can solo the depths on elite being under by 1 level with little to no problem (dumb ogres at the end kept surrounding me. Knocked me down to half my normal HP)... oh and as far as buffs go for self buffing, Aid and bark skin was about it (pots). My cleric I went from levels 1-9 never having a member of my party drop ever. My rouge only blew boxes on STK elite rolling a 1 on the check while being 2 levels below. I guess my skills are lacking. cause my rouge wasn't in the top 3 in kill counts.

Plus I've never belittled your character, it looks fine for how you want to play... I just am saying rouges are not suppose to be front line fighters... the best tactic for a rouge is wait for fighters to grab agro and come in from behind... but like I have said and others... there are lots of tactics you can use.

Awww :( but I want to go to khyber it seems like so much fun.

[Aspenor]

Really? My skills are lacking cause I have a fighter that can solo the depths on elite being under by 1 level with little to no problem (dumb ogres at the end kept surrounding me. Knocked me down to half my normal HP)... oh and as far as buffs go for self buffing, Aid and bark skin was about it (pots). My cleric I went from levels 1-9 never having a member of my party drop ever. My rouge only blew boxes on STK elite rolling a 1 on the check while being 2 levels below. I guess my skills are lacking. cause my rouge wasn't in the top 3 in kill counts.

Plus I've never belittled your character, it looks fine for how you want to play... I just am saying rouges are not suppose to be front line fighters... the best tactic for a rouge is wait for fighters to grab agro and come in from behind... but like I have said and others... there are lots of tactics you can use.

Awww :( but I want to go to khyber it seems like so much fun.

Wait a second, are you seriously basing a character's viability on the Depths series??

Seriously?

4 real???

[Thriand]

Really? My skills are lacking cause I have a fighter that can solo the depths on elite being under by 1 level with little to no problem (dumb ogres at the end kept surrounding me. Knocked me down to half my normal HP)... oh and as far as buffs go for self buffing, Aid and bark skin was about it (pots). My cleric I went from levels 1-9 never having a member of my party drop ever. My rouge only blew boxes on STK elite rolling a 1 on the check while being 2 levels below. I guess my skills are lacking. cause my rouge wasn't in the top 3 in kill counts.

Plus I've never belittled your character, it looks fine for how you want to play... I just am saying rouges are not suppose to be front line fighters... the best tactic for a rouge is wait for fighters to grab agro and come in from behind... but like I have said and others... there are lots of tactics you can use.

Awww :( but I want to go to khyber it seems like so much fun.

OMG dude sorry I didn't realize you had soloed the depth quests, that changes everything.

[Emili]

To the op, I maybe used a few scrolls off my cleric and bards in shroud... and never had to use a mana pot on my cleric in there, and really on those occasions I had resorted to healing outside my mana ... was because I was lazy or anticipating that I should reserve some for a possible quirk due to lag or something.

Meleeing Harry expidites his removal and end of the part/quest ... no and's if's or but's Meleeing is more efficient. We can do a normal shroud in 16-18 minutes... I am not going to stand around with an LFM asking for "Ranged Rangers" or "Ranged Splashed Rangers"... as those are the only good class with a bow or ranged weapon... That may take longer to fill then twice then the 16-18 minute (start to finish) speed run would take if I opened to fast killing of melee. Dang could have bloody run two shrouds maybe three ...

I have melee'd Harry with nine of my characters ... one (my monk) is too young yet but getting there and the other is my cleric. My character Ambyre is a Deepwoods pure ranger - near total ranged spec'd - and guess what? I start out with manyshot then move in with blades in hand when that runs out. My Bard I melee on occasion as my main priority with the little 28 point gimp is to keep our melee buff and spot heal anyone who needs it... including the cleric who took a fireball to the face ... but as I'm watching those red and blue bars, I go in to stick him a few times myself... WHY? Because even if it was the worst of pugs, where the melee dps is totally **** out of all the resources in DDO the only resource you cannot buy is time.

[Gunga]

WHY? Because even if it was the worst of pugs, where the melee dps is totally **** out of all the resources in DDO the only resource you cannot buy is time.
Yup.

[Thrudh]

then advertise in you LFM that you are gonna do "ranged only pt 4 and pt 5" and see how many clerics want to join you then.

Although melee is much faster, I fail to see why any cleric (other than time) would want to avoid an all ranged Shroud...

I HAVE run the Shroud with 8-9 rangers who all used their bow, and the only healing I had to do was when the devils came out...

Anyone with evasion ranging the Pit Fiend in Part 4 does NOT get hurt and requires basically ZERO healing.

Personally, I prefer melee.. but I actually love seeing a lot of evasion types in my Shroud groups... Usually I can get away with spot healing the couple of tanks without evasion along with a mass cure everyonce in a while... Part 4 is very easy with evasion folk....

Now Part 5, the Pit Fiends melees a lot more and throws less fireballs... Evasion doesn't help as much in Part 5

[Thrudh]

Because even if it was the worst of pugs, where the melee dps is totally **** out of all the resources in DDO the only resource you cannot buy is time.



Hmm... I'd rather waste 6 minutes than 3 SP potions... because replacing those 3 SP potions represents time too.

[Kiranselie]

Ding has come through your headphones so often that you don't even hear it anymore.

Yeah, after several runs w/ you, ive become so accustomed to the DING (Party) Your Party member Gunga has died. that I dont even hear it anymore. :D

[Gunga]

Yeah, after several runs w/ you, ive become so accustomed to the DING (Party) Your Party member Gunga has died. that I dont even hear it anymore. :D

Yeah. My 600hp Dwarf has deafenend the ears of a 92hp rogue. :rolleyes:

Although you do bring up a good point: Argo clerics are **** compared to Ghallanda clerics, but for a precious few. If a 600 hp barb can't stay healed in your parties, I'd expect you're not running with the good ones, huh.

[Aspenor]

Yeah. My 600hp Dwarf has deafenend the ears of a 92hp rogue. :rolleyes:

Although you do bring up a good point: Argo clerics are **** compared to Ghallanda clerics, but for a precious few. If a 600 hp barb can't stay healed in your parties, I'd expect you're not running with the good ones, huh.

Most of my friends are SO good that they have learned how to get their mass heals to miss you.

die gunga die

[Gunga]

die gunga die

Sure. But don't worry Asp, you won't when I'm clericing your party. Unless you're on a toon with less than 100hp. It's cheaper to carry them.

[Aspenor]

Sure. But don't worry Asp, you won't when I'm clericing your party. Unless you're on a toon with less than 100hp. It's cheaper to carry them.

i feel loved :)

[rezo]

... I forgot what I was going to say

[Hafeal]

Esteemed party goers -

I have not noticed in my shroud runs with my main (a cleric), do the blades hurt the devils and gnolls? I assume the blades are neutral, perhaps not though. I can't recall if the blades disappear when the devils and gnolls pop. If not, is it a tactic to steer the devils and gnolls into the blades? Just a thought.

Thank you in advance for this complete thread diversion.

[Show_me_the_Platinum]

Like i said earlier, just because it is beyond YOUR skill and intelligence level to play a melee bard, melee caster, or rogue doesnt mean they are not viable melee characters. Most of the time they are far superior to your "fighters" because of the self sufficiency of said characters. I know my rogue doesnt need a pocket buffer/healer can the same be said of your melee's?

I don't know how I missed this one earlier. I believe I said I once soloed the depths quest line with no problem. How does that translate into needing a picket buffer/healer. I'm not the one that lists my character with buffs that they can't do themselves.

P.S. I guess people missed out on the line "one level below the quest line." the depths are level 4 on normal 6 on elite. One level below is 5. I'd like to see a rouge self buff with greater heroism scrolls at that level :)

[Pwesiela]

Why is it that everyone must melee with Harry on part 4 and 5 in the Shroud?? I was in a group that ranged him, true it took 4.5 rounds but the Clr.'s didn't run out of spell points and no one died. I've been seeing the posting "More Melee Needed" and when you have 2 clr.'s or worst a Clr. and Bard the Clr. having to go through mana pot and heal scrolls. Why, I'm begin to think it's bad tactics to melee him in part 4 and 5. And what is up with the tanks demanding a bard for song's?? What, is you build so useless the you need a more +'s to hit with your Green steel weapon!! Do you get a cookie if you kill Harry in two rounds??? Plx tell me why???? :eek:

Hmmmmm....

When I did my all ranger shroud run a little while back I believe we did part 4 in 2 and a little bit rounds.

Part 5 was a walk in the park. Only, it was easier than a walk in the park. More like sunbathing in the park I think.

[Show_me_the_Platinum]

Are seriously that ****** stupid. I'm very proud for you that you solo'd a level 6 quest at level 5. Now you really want to impress me, you'll get out of that lowbie **** and solo some end game content on a fighter. When you can do that, then you can talk to me. Until then I'm still miles ahead of you man.


Oh and your little Greater Heroism comment. Seriously dude, you fail miserably.

You're right you are miles away from me... now turn around and face the right way.

P.S. How much of the end game content have you soloed?

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Op.
I agree with you, but....you're fighting a losing battle.

Few chars have any meaningful ranged cpability. In fact many chars don't even carry a ranged wep.

Also, in general, people who like the raids are zegers at heart. They even compete to see how fast they can do it.

Once people find a tactic that works, they stop experimenting.

Also many many DDO players really enjoy melee. It's just more fun to melee him (and suceeed anyway).

But like I said.....I do agree with you.

I even think Ranging Sulu in VoD would be a good tactic.

[Kiranselie]

You're right you are miles away from me... now turn around and face the right way.

P.S. How much of the end game content have you soloed?

Um, well lets see, Enter the Kobold (Elite), Monastary of the Drow (Elite), all the vale quests (Rainbow pre change), and several others. Just to appease you, I will have screenshots before weeks end too. If you play on Argo, I'll be glad to let you tag along and stay at the entrance til I'm finished, then I'll ddoor back and carry your stone thru the rest of it.

[Show_me_the_Platinum]

Um, well lets see, Enter the Kobold (Elite), Monastary of the Drow (Elite), all the vale quests (Rainbow pre change), and several others. Just to appease you, I will have screenshots before weeks end too. If you play on Argo, I'll be glad to let you tag along and stay at the entrance til I'm finished, then I'll ddoor back and carry your stone thru the rest of it.

How about Invaders?

[Delt]

How about Invaders?

lol

[HeavenlyCloud]

How about Invaders?

Didn't you say end game?

[Show_me_the_Platinum]

Didn't you say end game?

no rizzin did

[Mhykke]

Didn't you say end game?



no rizzin did


Not to get in the middle of this little squabble, but:



P.S. How much of the end game content have you soloed?

[Kiranselie]

Yes, ive solo'd invaders on a couple of characters, rogue being one, sorc being the other.

And btw, Invaders hasnt been end game in quite some time, like around 5 mods.

Get w/ the program man, seriously, w/ each post you look more and more like the jackass i pegged you for three pages ago.

[Show_me_the_Platinum]

Yes, ive solo'd invaders on a couple of characters, rogue being one, sorc being the other.

And btw, Invaders hasnt been end game in quite some time, like around 5 mods.

Get w/ the program man, seriously, w/ each post you look more and more like the jackass i pegged you for three pages ago.

Ok first of all, have you soloed invaders at level... second of all I believe it is more impressive to solo the lower level stuff where you can't craft items, third I believe it is more impressive to do these things with items you've pulled and not anything off the auction or hand me downs.

I never said Invaders was end content. It was one of the quests I thought of that is hard to solo at level, another one that is hard (not impossible) to solo is the pit (then again that is a big quest for rouges)

Come on is the best argument to discrediting me "Oh you don't know what end game content is." Everyone knows it is the dragon raid guys.

[Kiranselie]

Well, to be fair, when i rolled my rogue, level cap was 14, but yes I solo'd invaders elite at level 14 so that would make me the right level. Furthermore, to say the pit is a big quest for a rogue, what would make soloing the pit any more difficult for a rogue than any other melee based class?


You want to discount crafted weapons, fine, most crafted weaponry doesnt make solo'ing any easier, just quicker.

Seriously man, you should just stop now. I am, because nothing more I can say can make you appear more ignorant and delusional than the things you say yourself.

[Lithic]

I don't know how I missed this one earlier. I believe I said I once soloed the depths quest line with no problem. How does that translate into needing a picket buffer/healer. I'm not the one that lists my character with buffs that they can't do themselves.

P.S. I guess people missed out on the line "one level below the quest line." the depths are level 4 on normal 6 on elite. One level below is 5. I'd like to see a rouge self buff with greater heroism scrolls at that level :)


Umm my rogue did that at lvl 4, solo, elite, AND started with 8 str/con. Before hirelings existed I might add.

[Show_me_the_Platinum]

Well I am going to stop here, mostly because of a independent study of Shroud raiders (which I was not asked this question) how many of you goto the forums.
10 out of 50 said they did
out of that 10 only 4 said they posted.

Since I run dual monitors and DDO in window mode so I can look at the forums while waiting for a quest to start, only people who have feel that their opinions need to be defended post on the forums more then 300 times.

Me? I do not feel threatened by what people post about me for you are miles away from me and the only contact I have with you is this forum. If I am to stop going to the forums I will never have to deal with you again. Though I will not. For now I see that there are other threads that are being invaded by the power munchkins, who feel the need to tell everyone there is only one way to do this. Who need to be put in their place, and while every topic they try to defend eventually turns into an attack on the person that is posting against them, and not in defense of their own opinion, because when you start to lose a debate the ultimate tactic is to change the topic from the original (I like toast, well lets talk about what kind of car you drive) and almost refuse to get back to it. Who feel that the only builds that are worth anything are the ones that can solo quests on a multiplayer game. Who resort to name calling when their argument shrinks to "Well I think my opinion is worth more then your opinion." (the language filter is their bane)

For I am show_me_the_platinum... and I shall not go quietly into the night!

wow look at the time I gotta go to bed now.

[sephiroth1084]

I now know that you don't run the Shroud Aranticus, Harry don't randomly agro. this now shows it. I have seen players range him and pull agro then he will chase them down as they run around in part 4, it's true on part 5 not part 4. You might want to pay attention in there if you do the Shroud.


As far as I can tell, his aggro is random. I hit intimidate, see the success, and then see him swinging at someone else. I've taken some of my AC off and hit intimidate to see if I start taking more damage, and as far as I can tell I don't.

I threw 4 fogs on Harry in one part 5 after the melee had begun beating on him and went to go get SP back at a pool, and turned around to see Big Red bearing down upon me. No way the fogs generated more aggro than 8 other people beating on him.

[sephiroth1084]

Dude, I came to this thread waaaaay late, but i gotta say, you are in fact the most ignorant person I have ever ran across on these boards. You take the cake as biggest jackass. Period.

.

You know, I was initially going to argue against this comment...then I read the rest of the thread and have to say that I'm not sure I could accumulate any evidence to support such an argument. Wow.

[transtemporal]

I don't have time to read this thread from beginning to end as I have to go to work, so this may have been said before, but...

OP - I suggest you go and read your first post again and see if you can pinpoint the reason why most people prefer an all-melee party. I'll give you a hint, its around the part where you say "sure, it can take 4.5 rounds".

I can understand doing an all-ranged shroud just to prove a point or for fun, but if you're doing it on a regular basis, there's a word for it and that word is "masochistic". I shudder to think what an all-ranged, no-bard shroud would be called. Maybe a MoaFUs?

[Pwesiela]

I can understand doing an all-ranged shroud just to prove a point or for fun, but if you're doing it on a regular basis, there's a word for it and that word is "masochistic". I shudder to think what an all-ranged, no-bard shroud would be called. Maybe a MoaFUs?

Actually, I called it "Insanely Easy".

OK, the fact that we got the devil in part 2 was annoying, but it all worked out.

[Thrudh]

I shudder to think what an all-ranged, no-bard shroud would be called. Maybe a MoaFUs?

Again, I've done an all ranged shroud before as a cleric, and yes it takes longer, so I don't prefer it, but it is VERY easy for the clerics...

I spent more time healing myself from fireballs than the evasion rangers... Sure it took 4 rounds, but I had 60% of my SP left...

Not saying it's optimal, but it's nothing to shudder about...

[Desteria]

I just think it's because they want to be the center of attention. After all they have to be the hero even though they don't plan out everything from the start and play it by ear only to find that their base 12 str fighter can't hit the broad side of a barn and thus needs endless buffs to hit anything in the world even a CR .25 kolbold, just pay to rename your toon and call him MrGimpy and get it over with.

If you believe that doing as much damage as possible is important, then WHY don't you have everyone in the 12 man raid group up there pounding away at him? Battle Clerics would be the best for this as after the fight they could heal you back up. Or is it possible that you don't have the con or hit points required to take all the damage handed out and need your own personal heal bot or two to keep you from dying?

Or is it that you refuse to accept a tactic where you're not the center of attention? Oh wait I forgot anyone playing a cleric is suppose to pay 15 bucks a month for you two have fun, cause heaven forbid that everyone in the party have fun while playing this game. If you want to be the guy then I suggest playing this game where you can be http://kayin.pyoko.org/iwbtg/ then you can be the guy.

Please respond to this all Mr. Gimpy builds.

P.S. obviously this game is designed for fighters to be the center of attention since there are so many pure melee classes around like bards, rouges "you might be able to pick his pockets if you try hard enough.", and RANGERS.

P.S. P.S. What's up with rouges anyway? They think that they can DPS when they get NO combat related feats. I mean I could see if they got two weapon fighting, or maybe weapon specialization, but they just think that sneak attack damage means they are a front line fighter. I mean come on they get 6 HP a level to a fighter's 10 and they don't even have that good of a to hit bonus. 3/4 of a fighter is the same as a clerics, and don't bards have the same thing? Wait I know. They are front line fighters for battle wizards and battle sorcerers who have a 1/2 to hit of that of a fighter. So I get it they hit more often the casters so that means they make good fighters who actually hit better then rouges, unless they are a Mr. Gimpy build then the fighter can only hit with Greater Heroism and Bard songs.

Bard song are for the + DAMAGE not + hit

[Desteria]

That's the problem 99% of zerging groups have individuals that are like this "Screw the party I'm going it alone cause I've run this quest before with my level cap toon." then the level 3 rouge tries to solo the flesh golem giant at the end of STK. (I bet most of the people that have been shooting me down didn't know that the 'giant' at the end of STK is a construct)

any experanced player knows this it's onyl newbies that might not.



Aranticus... I don't have delusions of grandeur. First off all I've never said I was the best player, I just talk about those worst then me. Second of all... I'm not delusional. (and before those who say could have fooled me... well I say the same thing about you knowing how to have fun with a game)

Soo you liek to talk about unicorns and other creatchers of fantsy, because from your posts I don't think i;ve met a worse player ever.

[Desteria]

Wow. Just wow.

Read what you quote much?


The reason you need less HPs if you have evasion is because;

With evasion, blades+delayed blast fireball don't = death, at sub 300 hp or so.

Does that make sence? Or do you need a map drawn?

he needs a map..

[Desteria]

Yay validation for casters to go melee with harry in part four, now there is no reason we shouldn't be taken cause with two dwarven axes we can DPS with the best of them. (Now lets get the bard to play that funky music)

(look my posting count is going up. I should get a special tittle)

you need a 'special' tittle alright....

[Desteria]

I now know that you don't run the Shroud Aranticus, Harry don't randomly agro. this now shows it. I have seen players range him and pull agro then he will chase them down as they run around in part 4, it's true on part 5 not part 4. You might want to pay attention in there if you do the Shroud.

I beileve Aranticus hase some where around 500 shropud completions.

[Show_me_the_Platinum]

Bard song are for the + DAMAGE not + hit

Just like people who complain about not being able to hit without GH (don't tell me that people only say then need it for saves when I hear them say "But I hit better with GH on.")


any experienced player knows this it's only newbies that might not.

That's the only thing you got from that post?

Soo you like to talk about unicorns and other creature of fantasy, because from your posts I don't think i;ve met a worse player ever.

Then obviously you've never met a pure bard who thinks bards get evasion. Players who think a High Hide skill makes you harder to hit. Casters that are told "I'm handing out Resist and Protection." then procede after you've handed them out cast them all again ignoring the fact no animations pop up until you get a "Why isn't Resist working?" Players who go toe to toe with ogres on Grey Moon with two swords out and die twice, only pulling out a shield when they were cut off from the cleric. Players who once resed run off to fight without even getting a single cure spell or drink a pot or get a lay on hand. So either you run with the same people constantly, or you don't play that often.


he needs a map..

No some people need to understand what they read not just comprehend what is said.


you need a 'special' tittle alright....

We'll that was about getting a lot of posts on the forum, but with your five posts in one day you're giving me a run for my money.


I believe Aranticus has some where around 500 shroud completions.

It's called sarcasm. More people on this forum need to learn to recognize it. Like there are so many nice people on the forums.

[Newtons_Apple]

Really? My skills are lacking cause I have a fighter that can solo the depths on elite being under by 1 level with little to no problem (dumb ogres at the end kept surrounding me. Knocked me down to half my normal HP)... oh and as far as buffs go for self buffing, Aid and bark skin was about it (pots). My cleric I went from levels 1-9 never having a member of my party drop ever. My rouge only blew boxes on STK elite rolling a 1 on the check while being 2 levels below. I guess my skills are lacking. cause my rouge wasn't in the top 3 in kill counts.

Plus I've never belittled your character, it looks fine for how you want to play... I just am saying rouges are not suppose to be front line fighters... the best tactic for a rouge is wait for fighters to grab agro and come in from behind... but like I have said and others... there are lots of tactics you can use.

Awww :( but I want to go to khyber it seems like so much fun.


I just think it's because they want to be the center of attention. After all they have to be the hero even though they don't plan out everything from the start and play it by ear only to find that their base 12 str fighter can't hit the broad side of a barn and thus needs endless buffs to hit anything in the world even a CR .25 kolbold, just pay to rename your toon and call him MrGimpy and get it over with.

If you believe that doing as much damage as possible is important, then WHY don't you have everyone in the 12 man raid group up there pounding away at him? Battle Clerics would be the best for this as after the fight they could heal you back up. Or is it possible that you don't have the con or hit points required to take all the damage handed out and need your own personal heal bot or two to keep you from dying?

Or is it that you refuse to accept a tactic where you're not the center of attention? Oh wait I forgot anyone playing a cleric is suppose to pay 15 bucks a month for you two have fun, cause heaven forbid that everyone in the party have fun while playing this game. If you want to be the guy then I suggest playing this game where you can be http://kayin.pyoko.org/iwbtg/ then you can be the guy.

Please respond to this all Mr. Gimpy builds.

P.S. obviously this game is designed for fighters to be the center of attention since there are so many pure melee classes around like bards, rouges "you might be able to pick his pockets if you try hard enough.", and RANGERS.

P.S. P.S. What's up with rouges anyway? They think that they can DPS when they get NO combat related feats. I mean I could see if they got two weapon fighting, or maybe weapon specialization, but they just think that sneak attack damage means they are a front line fighter. I mean come on they get 6 HP a level to a fighter's 10 and they don't even have that good of a to hit bonus. 3/4 of a fighter is the same as a clerics, and don't bards have the same thing? Wait I know. They are front line fighters for battle wizards and battle sorcerers who have a 1/2 to hit of that of a fighter. So I get it they hit more often the casters so that means they make good fighters who actually hit better then rouges, unless they are a Mr. Gimpy build then the fighter can only hit with Greater Heroism and Bard songs.


Actually, you did belittle his character by making a statement that was a sweeping generalization of the class (rogue). And arguing against Sable is a bad idea as well - he literally wrote the book on rogues. See this link. (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=124401)

[maddmatt70]

Actually, you did belittle his character by making a statement that was a sweeping generalization of the class (rogue). And arguing against Sable is a bad idea as well - he literally wrote the book on rogues. See this link. (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=124401)

Shrug, whatever that means.. I have no idea whether this Sable is a good player or not just like most of the forum posters here. Only thing that I know is they post. Take Show_me_The_Platnum, who apparently also likes to post, but I can easily discern Platnum doesn't understand DDO. It is clear that Platnum has not played DDO much or is incapable of understanding it really one or the other. Sable who knows..

[Newtons_Apple]

Shrug, whatever that means.. I have no idea whether this Sable is a good player or not just like most of the forum posters here. Only thing that I know is they post. Take Show_me_The_Platnum, who apparently also likes to post, but I can easily discern Platnum doesn't understand DDO. It is clear that Platnum has not played DDO much or is incapable of understanding it really one or the other. Sable who knows..

Which is why I placed the link to his guide - read just the first page of Notes from a Dancing Rogue, and you'll know what kind of player he is. Here it is again: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=124401 so you don't have to go searching for it. :)

[maddmatt70]

Which is why I placed the link to his guide - read just the first page of Notes from a Dancing Rogue, and you'll know what kind of player he is. Here it is again: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=124401 so you don't have to go searching for it. :)

I actually looked at it and have some questions/qualms about some of the recommendations in it and the build types for that matter. You could and almost should argue that the only rogue build people should make is a twf rogue and that rogue has 7 feats to choose from. I have a q-staff rogue and ac twf tempest rogue with monk splash. The q-staff rogue is a sub optimal build I know this and don't make any claims otherwise whereas my twf tempest ac rogue with monk clash is a topflight build. This rogue guide makes no such distinctions..

[Show_me_the_Platinum]

Shrug, whatever that means.. I have no idea whether this Sable is a good player or not just like most of the forum posters here. Only thing that I know is they post. Take Show_me_The_Platnum, who apparently also likes to post, but I can easily discern Platnum doesn't understand DDO. It is clear that Platnum has not played DDO much or is incapable of understanding it really one or the other. Sable who knows..

Really I don't know how to play. I've been playing for DDO for years, I've had only 1 character become gimped because of changes to the game mechanics while I've heard about legions of players who lost multiple characters for the same reason. My main that I play is my cleric and I've never had a party complain about ANYTHING that cleric does, in fact lots of people comment about how good I am about keeping the party alive. My fighters I've never had anyone, but TWF dwarves and other munchkins complain about how my build is gimped while I take less damage then them Clerics actually say "I like that build. Even though you're a warforged I have to spend less Spell points on you then them."

If clerics after banded togeather and said "We are tired of having to babysit this type of build." this game would be in a world of trouble.

[Spisey]

You can do anything you wish, as long as you don't suck.


**** you and your quotable quotes! /Signature added

Plat just be happy most of the true forums trolls are staying out of your threads. Most of them don't have the points left to squabble with the handicapped....
Here's a suggestion,
/locate new server

[FluffyCalico]

Just like people who complain about not being able to hit without GH (don't tell me that people only say then need it for saves when I hear them say "But I hit better with GH on.")


.

Almost everyone i know who asks for it does so because they don't have a shroud immune to fear item.

[FluffyCalico]

[
Would be no different than if every caster said there are haste pots get your own haste. Or there are resist pots get your own etc etc. Simpily put not playing as a group always causes issues in group games.

[Erekose]

Why is it that everyone must melee with Harry on part 4 and 5 in the Shroud?? I was in a group that ranged him, true it took 4.5 rounds but the Clr.'s didn't run out of spell points and no one died. I've been seeing the posting "More Melee Needed" and when you have 2 clr.'s or worst a Clr. and Bard the Clr. having to go through mana pot and heal scrolls. Why, I'm begin to think it's bad tactics to melee him in part 4 and 5. And what is up with the tanks demanding a bard for song's?? What, is you build so useless the you need a more +'s to hit with your Green steel weapon!! Do you get a cookie if you kill Harry in two rounds??? Plx tell me why???? :eek:

Our guild often runs with only 1 really good cleric or 2 clerics. The point is if you can dps Harry down in Part 1 or early part 2 you wont need all your spell points. The extra dps also means your completion time will be quicker. The longer a battle goes on the more expense to casters and SP is not a renewable power unless you chugs pots or have items.

The screen shot below is an example of a quick completion time with one dedicated heal bot and a part time healer/battle cleric.

http://i489.photobucket.com/albums/rr256/humpster101/Speedrunshroud1.jpg

[HeavenlyCloud]

Our guild often runs with only 1 really good cleric or 2 clerics. The point is if you can dps Harry down in Part 1 or early part 2 you wont need all your spell points. The extra dps also means your completion time will be quicker. The longer a battle goes on the more expense to casters and SP is not a renewable power unless you chugs pots or have items.

The screen shot below is an example of a quick completion time with one dedicated heal bot and a part time healer/battle cleric.

http://i489.photobucket.com/albums/rr256/humpster101/Speedrunshroud1.jpg

I am in that screenshot :).

[Spisey]

I am in that screenshot :).


Hah! You even let Cordy beat you in kill count! :D

(fyi) Blah may be the one with the lowest hp's :p ;)

[rezo]

well, after doing many shroud raids over this weekend ( I don't complete them on my clr. often ) I did notice that I was running with the same people over and over. That might be why I've been having some bad shrouds runs. I might want to start being picky about who I run with then.

[rezo]

Oh, by the way... I didn't mean for this tread to get out of hand. I was looking for other tactics to run the shroud that might work.

[bobbryan2]

Oh, by the way... I didn't mean for this tread to get out of hand. I was looking for other tactics to run the shroud that might work.

The main point to get is that... ranging is a perfectly viable strategy... if your group can't handle better tactics.

[FluffyCalico]

Also if the ranged person suddenly gets aggro (lighting strike 2 times in arrow) at beginning of round good luck protecting your clerics from the fireballs.

It just works much better to have the boss sit in 1 spot and not move vs have him run like a chicken with head cut off fireballing the clerics.

[FluffyCalico]

Ok first of all, have you soloed invaders at level... second of all I believe it is more impressive to solo the lower level stuff where you can't craft items, third I believe it is more impressive to do these things with items you've pulled and not anything off the auction or hand me downs.

.

So you are saying you have poor gear while bragging about what you can do?

Also soloing something 1 level below is no big deal. And I consider soloing something on elite 1 level below to be 1 level below the normal level not the boosted level. I mean my first sorc (mod 1) soloed Storm cleave elite at level 7. And you know what, thats not impressive at all to me or anyone else, in fact is was fairly common.

C06 had to be changed because the devs were mad average level 8 clerics were soloing it on elite. Mind you not great ones but so so ones.

Impressive is the guy who soloed VoD.

PS> Using hirelings is not soloing...

[eonfreon]

I'm sure this has probably been said already:
If you want a group of players to do a Quest or a Raid your way instead of someone else's way, it's really simple: Start your own group and explain what tactics you want to use.
If you don't want to use a certain tactic then don't join groups that plan on using that tactic
Start your own group, dictate your own tactics.
If the others in the group get upset about your tactics, well, they can just come here to the forums and complain about it.