At end game, Tomed out, geared out, there is no substitute [Archive]

Moonblood

03-13-2009, 05:09 AM

You could argu any... and I could argu many... but..

Mine are human and dwarven... My human is less fun... But more tank, and what i mean by that is ... Point'm in the direction of the enemy and he will stand toe to toe and dish... My dwarf's a tactician and has more to offer in the way of regular questing, and party friendly mob action.. i.e. stun/trip/sunder/earth grab/ air guard... But over all, my human deals more damage and is less of strain on the healer when i comes to tanking toe to toe...

It takes your fighter being your beloved toon and the toon your spending your time and plat on... but in the end... there's no other tank that measures up... imo

It is time the fighter told his tale...

splash class ha! ha ha!! unless your gonna splash 16 levels of great axe swing'n FTR!!

Moonblood

03-13-2009, 05:21 AM

I'm biased...it's true.

Milamber69

03-13-2009, 05:27 AM

Cool, congrats. I remember my first toon..

Moonblood

03-13-2009, 05:31 AM

I rolled my first toon 3 years ago... and i don't remember... so yours must have been much more recient.

Milamber69

03-13-2009, 05:45 AM

I rolled my first toon 3 years ago... and i don't remember... so yours must have been much more recient.

I apologize if you thought I was being sarcastic. You're boasting about your fighter, which according to your signature you have 2 of. Didn't know when you started playing, nor do I care, however maybe if you had played a barbarian or any other toon for over 2 years you would think it was the one and only tank for all your blah blah blah.

Moonblood

03-13-2009, 06:39 AM

no sir.. don't get it twisted... your remark was intended in the way I took it, as if I must be talking about my first toon because I can't be saying the ftr is the tank of tanks and have any game knowledge... when that's exactly what i'm saying... and not because i'm new...but because the class is what it is when give'n the oppertunity and efforts...

Currently I have 3 capped fighters... and sense you've made it known you need to be corrected... I have capped and played many a class, and many a race in those 3 years...

I myself am tired of seeing the ftr class dumped on, when if you know anyone...or yourself have take'n the class to the end and give'n it the necessary equiptment and tomes (the blah blah blah)... you would know as I do... There's no comparison. You could argu another class...sure...and I welcome you to...

I boast about my fighters to a certain degree yes... imo the class needs some people to speak for it... insted of all the nonsense I see about the class being gimped and it being splash... I don't agree with that and feel it should be countered with the other side of the story...

My sig isn't the be all end all of what I do with my toon building and what I run... In the last 3 months i've deleted several capped toons of various classes and races... doesn't mean anything... not to you or me... and i'll continue to do so as I see fit... I get bored with a toon..I delete it... no biggie... doesn't matter what i've spent or the time i've take'n to make it what it is... no thing to me...it's a game...

The position of the post is to Shine on the FTR class... And to let some people know... I think they're wrong... and have toons to back up my position... nothing more, nothing less... I haven't heard one argument against the grain when it comes to the ftr... Tho I run with and know many that are so sick I can't imagine why others haven't caught on...

My perspective is what it is and not because i have no experience...in fact it's the exact opposite...

I'm peace with you... but keep it real...if your saying "i remember my first toon" and meaning "you'll find out later your opinion is wrong" then just say the latter and we can talk about it... ya dig?

peace

LeeRoy

03-13-2009, 06:57 AM

some pure barb math for dps

ill beat it by making a fighter build.

Milamber69

03-13-2009, 07:05 AM

Joemama

03-13-2009, 07:06 AM

LeeRoy

03-13-2009, 07:22 AM

Sequell

03-13-2009, 07:38 AM

The ranger 6 barbarian 10 is the best dps i have ever seen, of course you can make a fighter a tank by getting some nice loot. But if it was one spot left and we needed a tank i would take the ranger/barb over the fighter.

/signed...Every letter there is true!

To the OP. I can't agree to any extent that there is any reason to build a pure fighter unless you are a pure-class builder only. On the other hand i you aren't biased againt multi-class builds you will find that a Fighter can bo so much more than a "Tank." It really depends on what you definition of a tank is also though. Tank usually translates to "I am an Intimidate build and have 0 DPS, but I will stand here with mobs all around me." That is a pointless type of build IMHO. It is cool that you can draw aggro with a button push, but it sucks if you can't kill anything or take care of yourself. Here are a few points to ponder while you think the "Pure Fighter" is the best "Tank" you could ever make.

1 - Is your pure fighter able to self-heal? Probably not much beyond pots. Even if you have a Shroud Cha skill item it is unlikely you can muster enough UMD to use Heal scrolls.

2 - Is you AC unbelieveably high? Answer...No...With comparable gear there are multi-class builds as well as pure Paladins, Monks, and Rangers that will eclipse your max AC easily.

3 - Are you self-sufficient? Maybe marginally because of Girds, maybe enough UMD to Resist Wand yourself and use alot of Potions for other buffs. Compared to a Paladin, or a pure Ranger your self-sufficiency is lacking also.

4 - Is you DPS the end-all-be-all? No it is not. It is normal at best if you put enough Dex into your build for GTWF. If you are a Sword & Board type then I need not waste my time about DPS because there isn't any to speak of.

I am not saying in any way that your build is bad. Only pointing out that any fully equiped, tomed, (blah blah blah) pure Fighter is at best a middle of the road Character. Put your efforts into another melee and you will see a big difference in many aspects of what the Fighter lacks.

People argue that the Fighter is strong because of the abundance of feats. I think that for that reason it is a splash class. It is sort of the same reason the Monk splash is popular. Except you get alot more nice additions splashing Monk. :D

These are just a few easy ones. There are many more reasons to not build a pure fighter. Please don't try and make anyone think that a fighter is up to par on any facet. If there is any class other than Monks that needs some love it is the Fighter IMO.:D

Just my thoughts. :)

Kreaper

03-13-2009, 07:52 AM

I have to go with Sequell on this. I have built and capped several fighters. They have all been retired and deleted (Except for one that is a mule.). They aren't tomed out and all that, but none of my characters are. The tomes will give them all the same amount of boosts, so it would balance out any way. My friend, however, has all of his guys tomed up and geared out, including his capped fighter. I can't remember the last time he played his fighter. It stinks compared to his ranger and rogue that are also both tomed and geared. Sorry man, at this point in time, you could do much better than a pure fighter.

Aeneas

03-13-2009, 08:12 AM

People don't dump on fighters because they dislike them so much as they dump on them so that the devs will take note that the class is lacking in some areas and needs adjustment.

P.S. the 6/10 build you laughed at doesn't need greater weapon specialization - he has favored enemy evil outsider (+4 damage to evil outsiders) and probably has the +2 damage to FE enhancements as well for a total of +6 damage - and that's what basically every end game mob is right now(and will be in the next mod). Not to mention the fact that if the owner of said build were smart enough to plan ahead and actually leveled the toon as a 14 barb/2 ranger and took crit rage 2 so he could grandfather it in, he'd be spanking your fighter even after the capstones came in and you took kensai III.

Say you took human and started with 18 str, put all 4 points in, pulled a +3 str tome, took fighter str 3, 1 for human adaptability and had a rage pot addiction - you'd be looking at 37 str most of the time, and an occasional short burst to 45 thanks to the kensai power surge. That same barb/ranger mix however could spend all his time at 18 base + 4 levels + 2 ram's might + 3 tome + 2 rage pot + 10 barb rage +6 item + 1 human adaptability = full time str of 46 and he could potentially have 4 more points of Con over you before raging. Add to that the fact that neither build can achieve meaningful AC (over 70) and the dps and hp's is what it all comes down to, and with a +2 to critical threat range, higher strength, and up to 14 more con than the fighter, there is really no contest.

Heffty_Smurf

03-13-2009, 10:46 AM

The FIGHTER is the one and only tank for all your raiding/questing and overall party success needs...

Takes effort and time... But rolled right... with the appropriate tomes and gear... There is NO comparison... NONE... NOT ONE... so think what you will, try what you will.. but at end game.. the STR, CON fighter is the APEX.. period.

I just had to get that out.

Who are you? welcome to the game. ur correct fighters are great toons and a heck of a starter class, if you feel up to the challenge i could help u along with some of the more complex classes out there.

4th grade spelling ftl

Aspenor

03-13-2009, 11:10 AM

patently false

Rogue > All

Lithic

03-13-2009, 11:20 AM

patently false

Rogue > All>>> Aspenor

Fixed that for you asp.

Strakeln

03-13-2009, 11:24 AM

Did he list any of his other builds, or are they all fighters?

Some of the text was boring so I had to skip it.

Wrustle

03-13-2009, 11:28 AM

Demoyn

03-13-2009, 11:32 AM

Not to mention the fact that if the owner of said build were smart enough to plan ahead and actually leveled the toon as a 14 barb/2 ranger and took crit rage 2 so he could grandfather it in, he'd be spanking your fighter even after the capstones came in and you took kensai III.

This is a lie. The 14 barb / 6 ranger will do less damage than the 20 kensai. It's been proven mathematically.

Sequell

03-13-2009, 12:22 PM

This is a lie. The 14 barb / 6 ranger will do less damage than the 20 kensai. It's been proven mathematically.

Are you sure that the comparison wasn't a Kensai to a Berserker? I think that was it...can't remember where the post was.

I don't think the Kensai has been compared to a grandfathered Imp Crit Rage II Barb anywhere...If it has I would like to see...maybe I just missed it lol!

Please post the link if you know its location.

Thanks,
Seq

Moonblood

03-13-2009, 07:25 PM

Wow. Nice story. Did I hit a nerve? Thanks for opening my eyes to you and your über build that your so deffensive about. Please show me exactly where and how people were bringing down your favourite toon.

As far as I knew fighters were only going to get better and better with kensai etc but again I will take your words of wisdom over anyone else because as you said, you do have 3 capped toons!

For the record this thread belongs in the achievments, you could call it 'I finally have a toon that doesn't suck, after 3 years.

I'm at peace with you too, ya dig?

I never described my builds champ...

Yes fighters will get better with the new mod...

"finally have a toon that doesn't suck" that's laugable, and tho you wish to argu i have no desire to argu with you or insult you.

__________________________________________________ ______________________________

Hefty, my spelling will alwayz suck...It's never been good, it never will be, and i'm ok with that...especially at 5am after a long day/night... I mean really, that's like me saying "lay off the donunts ftw!"...not a classy thing to say..

I don't need your help with my builds but I again thank you for the offer... I rarely run with you but it's alwayz been pleasant and obvious you know your stuff, builds, game knowledge and you run a good guild that is respected across the board... Fair to say there's no reason to not keep our standings as they are.

__________________________________________________ ______________________________

This thread was for fun, I know it's a foreign concept, but it was meant to stir the pots some... FOR FUN...
A lot of good replies and build info.

to answer some questions... No my tanks don't have UMD, yes there AC is better than average, but eventually they rely on healing classes to do my medical work.

I've built some multiclasses, tempest tanks etc, that could cast and use wands... but they fell short imo at being the kind of tank I wanted....

again... these are my opinions... and If they have offended you... oh well...

some say barb, some say multiclass, and people have every right... I say fighter...

__________________________________________________ _____________________________

Lets not turn this into anything more than it is...

McBadger

03-13-2009, 07:27 PM

A real guild leader would have purchased a replacement mic by now no matter what class he prefers.

Gunga

03-13-2009, 07:30 PM

This is a lie. The 14 barb / 6 ranger will do less damage than the 20 kensai. It's been proven mathematically.

BLAH BLAH BLAH standing still on a sunny day with the wind at your back.

PU.

maddmatt70

03-13-2009, 10:47 PM

BLAH BLAH BLAH standing still on a sunny day with the wind at your back.

PU.

Yep.. Fighters are better then your meh multi-class builds. So let me get this straight you hate rangers and now fighters too..

Gunga

03-13-2009, 10:52 PM

Yep.. Fighters are better then your meh multi-class builds. So let me get this straight you hate rangers and now fighters too..

No way man. Just rangers and bards who think they're melee. :D

Coldest

03-13-2009, 11:14 PM

No way man. Just rangers and bards who think they're melee. :D

I second that hatred.

Aerniel

03-13-2009, 11:25 PM

I never described my builds champ...

Yes fighters will get better with the new mod...

"finally have a toon that doesn't suck" that's laugable, and tho you wish to argu i have no desire to argu with you or insult you.

__________________________________________________ ______________________________

Hefty, my spelling will alwayz suck...It's never been good, it never will be, and i'm ok with that...especially at 5am after a long day/night... I mean really, that's like me saying "lay off the donunts ftw!"...not a classy thing to say..

I don't need your help with my builds but I again thank you for the offer... I rarely run with you but it's alwayz been pleasant and obvious you know your stuff, builds, game knowledge and you run a good guild that is respected across the board... Fair to say there's no reason to not keep our standings as they are.

__________________________________________________ ______________________________

This thread was for fun, I know it's a foreign concept, but it was meant to stir the pots some... FOR FUN...
A lot of good replies and build info.

to answer some questions... No my tanks don't have UMD, yes there AC is better than average, but eventually they rely on healing classes to do my medical work.

I've built some multiclasses, tempest tanks etc, that could cast and use wands... but they fell short imo at being the kind of tank I wanted....

again... these are my opinions... and If they have offended you... oh well...

some say barb, some say multiclass, and people have every right... I say fighter...

__________________________________________________ _____________________________

Lets not turn this into anything more than it is...

cant we all just get along? i mean seriously... wait... nvm.... this is a DDO forum >_> nobody gets along here.

*ding ding*
"BRAWL!"

Dark-Star

03-15-2009, 01:22 PM

OP post the details of your build to back it up.

gfunk

03-15-2009, 01:48 PM

Are you sure that the comparison wasn't a Kensai to a Berserker? I think that was it...can't remember where the post was.

I don't think the Kensai has been compared to a grandfathered Imp Crit Rage II Barb anywhere...If it has I would like to see...maybe I just missed it lol!

Please post the link if you know its location.

Thanks,
Seq

here are the comparisons I have done (summary chart on page 1, details on page 3, link for details provided at top of chart)
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=174906

I've looked at new barbs, old barbs, and tempest/crit range II barbs.

I'm sure there are other comparisons out there, however I believe the chart I have included is the most complete so far. I have no real agenda when doing the calculations, so I hope my numbers can be considered as un-biased.

jockobalbeno

03-16-2009, 09:05 AM

The FIGHTER is the one and only tank for all your raiding/questing and overall party success needs...

Takes effort and time... But rolled right... with the appropriate tomes and gear... There is NO comparison... NONE... NOT ONE... so think what you will, try what you will.. but at end game.. the STR, CON fighter is the APEX.. period.

I just had to get that out.

Love my 16 Dwarven/GTWF Pure Fighter!

Have to admit though, he has been on the back burner until Mod 9 comes out. I have his 2, Green Steal DA and I am not sure what I want to make, so just waiting for the new Mod before I choose what direction.

Kaldaka

03-16-2009, 09:31 AM

here are the comparisons I have done (summary chart on page 1, details on page 3, link for details provided at top of chart)
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=174906

I've looked at new barbs, old barbs, and tempest/crit range II barbs.

I'm sure there are other comparisons out there, however I believe the chart I have included is the most complete so far. I have no real agenda when doing the calculations, so I hope my numbers can be considered as un-biased.

Interesting that the only pure fighters at the top of the chart are with the 30% haste boost ... its a 20 second buff, with a 30 second cooldown, not like the 4 minute or so rages a barbarian gets so that makes me think the numbers are a little biased

Not to mention these are all level 20 numbers, and isn't this discussion about the here and now??? :D

maddmatt70

03-16-2009, 12:10 PM

Interesting that the only pure fighters at the top of the chart are with the 30% haste boost ... its a 20 second buff, with a 30 second cooldown, not like the 4 minute or so rages a barbarian gets so that makes me think the numbers are a little biased

Not to mention these are all level 20 numbers, and isn't this discussion about the here and now??? :D

No disagreement here. I made my fighter in mod 1. I have always enjoyed playing my fighter even despite all the ........ of the last 3 mods. The OP is the same guy who said he has 4 fighters when the fighter capstone came out. That seems pretty silly since fighters have been gimpish now for the last 3-4 mods. Fighters will be alot more competitive and no longer gimps when mod 9 comes out even without fighter haste boost going with the upcoming improvements to fighter. There is also the little matter of Turbine perhaps adding some real feats. I am a currently running around with multiple toughness feats on my offensive fighter and have 3 more feats coming next mod so give me something good would yeah Turbine.

Demoyn

03-16-2009, 12:26 PM

Interesting that the only pure fighters at the top of the chart are with the 30% haste boost ... its a 20 second buff, with a 30 second cooldown, not like the 4 minute or so rages a barbarian gets so that makes me think the numbers are a little biased

Not to mention these are all level 20 numbers, and isn't this discussion about the here and now??? :D

Everyone at the top has the 30% haste boost. Look at the whole chart, he has color-coded the builds so that you can see differentials. For instance, the kensai is color coded because it's the highest DPS possible without temporary boost (haste, frenzy, sneak attack, etc). There are different levels of the chart.

And yes, it's set for level 20. How exactly are you going to compare a kensai in the here and now?

doppleganger

03-16-2009, 12:39 PM

Moonblood

03-16-2009, 02:05 PM

which toon do you want the stats on?

the human that can rage to a 38 str, 615 hp, and with a few enhancement and item adjustment can easily turn into an itimi build with a modest 45+ intimi, swings a mineral 2 for all your named dps needs... I know it's silly to have a tank like this... especially with a decent ac...

or the Dwarf that gets to a 36...500hp... tactical stun/trip/sunder/ earth grab/ air guard, duel weilds w/p's, power 5's, slash/puncture improved crit... a really silly build I know...especially when buffed up fully and a modest 50+ ac for durability

One of my fighters is now a mule because he's an old 28pt build, and one is just there for raid timers and ingred gathering...other than that I don't run'm....

Happy day

bartcom2000

03-16-2009, 02:23 PM

moonblood........ you have got to be smoking somthing other than your sister b/c in no way is a FTR the uber toon. I'l take an evasion rogue over that pickled turd any day!!!!!!

lol....jj i have no i dea what im saying just thought I would mirror your attitude.

toodles... btw, if opposites attract then you and paris hiltion would hate each other!!!

gfunk

03-16-2009, 03:51 PM

Interesting that the only pure fighters at the top of the chart are with the 30% haste boost ... its a 20 second buff, with a 30 second cooldown, not like the 4 minute or so rages a barbarian gets so that makes me think the numbers are a little biased

Not to mention these are all level 20 numbers, and isn't this discussion about the here and now??? :D

Well, mostly I viewed it as pointless to evaluate something that would be imminently changed, so I tried to include the builds that people would be considering on a go-forward basis. I did include some of the Crit Rage II builds, which you will see typically lag behind the new kensai fighter.

As for the haste boost numbers, I have included them because some people believe haste boost is a reliable addition to dps. You will notice that I have included those numbers in the situational or temporary catagory, because not all people think those numbers are useful.

Also, many people have refered to 20th level builds in the thread, and the OP didn't say anything about the "here and now" to my knowledge

Moonblood

03-17-2009, 12:24 AM

pickled Turd

Lmao!

FluffyCalico

03-17-2009, 12:42 AM

The FIGHTER is the one and only tank for all your raiding/questing and overall party success needs...

.

The best VODs I have had were with a ranger as the tank :eek:

Since they only get hit on a 20 it makes it a cake walk.

Minor_Threat

03-17-2009, 01:06 AM

everyone knows that lv16 shuriken monk is the best evar.

"just for fun"

baddax

03-17-2009, 02:37 AM

Not weighing in on either side but IMO any question on builds and how good they are should be settled in the PVP pit.

Scalion

03-17-2009, 08:33 AM

Not weighing in on either side but IMO any question on builds and how good they are should be settled in the PVP pit.

That's silly because pve is all about crits and in pvp everyone has heavy fort.

I actually agree with the OP to a degree. The fighter class is much better than it's given credit for. I'm a bigger fan of +5 damage boost (humans only) than the haste boost though. Dual wielding khopesh I can hit +40 damage with my main hand and that's only with a +1 tome. Sure I don't top the kill count versus a WoP ranger, but against red names the ranger doesn't stand a chance.

Moonblood

03-17-2009, 10:05 AM

^^me to, I opted for the damage boost myself, have had the haste boost but I can just haste myself so that's good enough for me, more damage is better for my tank.

Scalion

03-17-2009, 10:13 AM

^^me to, I opted for the damage boost myself, have had the haste boost but I can just haste myself so that's good enough for me, more damage is better for my tank.

Once you factor in the X3 of a khopesh and the 17-20 crit range, +5 damage turns into 15 on a crit, and I think it wins out over the haste boost for damage output. Especially since many enemies have DR, and the damage boost applies to both weapons equally while dual wielding.

Dark-Star

03-17-2009, 01:22 PM

^^me To, I Opted For The Damage Boost Myself, Have Had The Haste Boost But I Can Just Haste Myself So That's Good Enough For Me, More Damage Is Better For My Tank.

K.

Moonblood

03-17-2009, 01:48 PM

I posted some stats as per your request dark, they're on page 2.

Nick_RC

03-17-2009, 10:09 PM

^^me to, I opted for the damage boost myself, have had the haste boost but I can just haste myself so that's good enough for me, more damage is better for my tank.

Are u serious? Ive been holding my tongue about this post, mainly because...well anyone that posts this at this stage in the game talking about current playing is just well ******** and ********. ^^This pretty much sums up how ridiculous this post is. U do realise that the lowest tier of the haste boots trumps the highest tier of the dmg boost right?. And that the haste boost stacks with haste. More dmg is better for your tank? Try the top tier of haste boost with haste...

****.

deathtouch

03-17-2009, 10:10 PM

some pure barb math for dps

ill beat it by making a fighter build.

I thought you were just making warforge sorcs now?

Moonblood

03-18-2009, 04:30 AM

rediculas post... sure i'll go with that

****** and ******* pretty sure that means nothing to me... yep i'm sure...nothing

Have maxed ftr haste, don't currently, will in the future and ty for reminding me... I flip enhancements quite a bit....

I think fighters make the best tanks if give'n the attention... You don't... sfw

How will I ever go on living without magi favor... whoaaa whoaa as me.... wait... nothing has changed... hmm i guess i'll be ok...

/flame on

Scalion

03-18-2009, 04:31 AM

Are u serious? Ive been holding my tongue about this post, mainly because...well anyone that posts this at this stage in the game talking about current playing is just well ******** and ********. ^^This pretty much sums up how ridiculous this post is. U do realise that the lowest tier of the haste boots trumps the highest tier of the dmg boost right?. And that the haste boost stacks with haste. More dmg is better for your tank? Try the top tier of haste boost with haste...

****.

There are times when damage boost is absolutely better than haste boost. I don't know exactly what point that occurs, but fighting something with high DR is a good place to start.

FluffyCalico

03-18-2009, 04:35 AM

There are times when damage boost is absolutely better than haste boost. I don't know exactly what point that occurs, but fighting something with high DR is a good place to start.

Lets go with this link about the uselessness of damage boost

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=175557

Moonblood

03-18-2009, 04:37 AM

^ can't argu with that

BlackSteel

03-18-2009, 08:21 AM

Hey someone linked me

cool

Nick_RC

03-18-2009, 11:58 AM

There are times when damage boost is absolutely better than haste boost. I don't know exactly what point that occurs, but fighting something with high DR is a good place to start.

There isnt. Transmuters ftw. The only place where it might be is if something had 70 dr and immune to crits. And you better hope for **** sure if that ever happens u arnt looking to beat the thing to death.

Demoyn

03-18-2009, 12:18 PM

There are times when damage boost is absolutely better than haste boost.

This statement is entirely true, unfortunately. Any time a character deals damage pathetic enough that 15% of it is less than the +5 damage boost, the damage boost is better.

For instance - a longsword deals 1d8 damage with 19-20 crit. Now if you are dual wielding them and have greater two-weapon fighting but don't have improved critical or weapon specializations with a 14 strength and a +5, your damage will be 1d8+7 and 1d8+6. That's 7 attacks in a round with a 10% crit chance, so we'll assume an off-hand crit and a main hand miss to round the math off.

Average damage on 1d8 is 4.5. In 7 hits (5 regular hits and 1 crit) that's 31.5 damage. Now the bonuses from the weapons will equal 45. Your base average damage will be 76.5.

Your +5 damage boost will add another 30 damage. Your haste boost will add 11.475 average damage. In this instance, the +5 damage boost is superior.

Of course, one of two things will be correct about the people who said that +5 damage bonus is better than haste boost on their character. Either one: they're completely ignorant about game mechanics and they're completely wrong, or two: their DPS-based characters deal horrible DPS and they're completely right.

In either case, if you believe that +5 damage boost is better than 15% haste boost, please stay out of my parties. You're either ignorant or incompetent, and I prefer to stay away from both types of people.

bandyman1

03-18-2009, 01:03 PM

bandyman1

03-18-2009, 01:54 PM

There are times when damage boost is absolutely better than haste boost. I don't know exactly what point that occurs, but fighting something with high DR is a good place to start.

Only if your tanks DPS suck's, and you don't have transmuters.

Scalion

03-18-2009, 02:53 PM

I'll be interesting to see where a level 20 pure fighter ranks melee-wise with mod 9. Weapon alacrity+maxed haste boost, PREs, ect...it'll be intersting to see how they stack up.

But, at this point in time; A pure fighter is someone you allow your buddy or guildie to bring along on your runs, because he's your friend and/or guildie, or you can crush the content with a few of the toons you already have in group.

Because even fully tomed and geared out; Nearly any other melee would be more effective in that spot.

Only if your tanks DPS suck's, and you don't have transmuters.

I just don't understand all the fighter hate.

My dual wield khopesh pure fighter has +28 to hit and +27 to primary hand damage completely unbuffed with power attack on. After bard and other buffs he can hit at least +35 damage to primary hand (not counting the attack boost I mentioned in another post). Yeah he's my first level 16 character and only has a +1 str tome, but the fact that he is ALWAYS the one with aggro on any red named, and competes only with WoP players for kills on quests says to me that fighters are definately underestimated. I do think that the sacrifices required to achieve this are a little too much considering a ranger can compete with these numbers against favored enemies and also have far more utility, but to say that a fighter can't do his job is just untrue.

Moonblood

03-18-2009, 10:00 PM

Because even fully tomed and geared out; Nearly any other melee would be more effective in that spot.

I don't agree with that, i'm running the same quests everyone else is and leveling thru all the same runs... and you can't say any other melee would be more effective if your not specific as to what effects your looking for... for instance... Rangers aren't going to hold mob aggro, monks aren't going to do more damage, barbarians...well everyone knows levels 1-14 you all think your 10 feet tall and invincible, and some well built fighter has to come save your life while your getting beat to pieces as you zerg into combat and bleed the cleric so the rest of the party can fend for itself... If you don't think that's true then I don't know what to tell you... I personally have been the last Fighter standing so many times its rediculas, with a back pack full of stones of all these SO CALLED more effective classes... so ramble on... I'm playing the same game you are... and if you don't want a fighter in your party so be it... Fighters are the best tanks...if you asked me... if you don't...then i'm fine with that

boldarblood

03-18-2009, 10:07 PM

I personally have been the last Fighter standing so many times its rediculas, with a back pack full of stones of all these SO CALLED more effective classes... so ramble on... I'm playing the same game you are... and if you don't want a fighter in your party so be it... Fighters are the best tanks...if you asked me... if you don't...then i'm fine with that

Tends to happen when your last one pulling agro. ;)

Pure Kensai Fighters at 20 are going to be much improved. Even then they fall behind rangers/pally/barbs.

Rangers aren't going to hold mob aggro, monks aren't going to do more damage, barbarians...well everyone knows levels 1-14 you all think your 10 feet tall and invincible, and some well built fighter has to come save your life while your getting beat to pieces as you zerg into combat and bleed the cleric so the rest of the party can fend for itself...

Perhaps ranged rangers will not be able to hold the agro. Equally equipped ranger will pull agro from fighter every time, until intimidate hits. But seeing an intimidate get thrown in a pug is very rare.

Beherit_Baphomar

03-18-2009, 10:16 PM

Fighters are the best tanks...if you asked me...

Unfortunately, to be blunt, that doesnt mean ****.

Florida is home to Mount Everest, if you ask me.

bandyman1

03-18-2009, 10:35 PM

I don't agree with that, i'm running the same quests everyone else is and leveling thru all the same runs... and you can't say any other melee would be more effective if your not specific as to what effects your looking for... for instance... Rangers aren't going to hold mob aggro, monks aren't going to do more damage, barbarians...well everyone knows levels 1-14 you all think your 10 feet tall and invincible, and some well built fighter has to come save your life while your getting beat to pieces as you zerg into combat and bleed the cleric so the rest of the party can fend for itself... If you don't think that's true then I don't know what to tell you... I personally have been the last Fighter standing so many times its rediculas, with a back pack full of stones of all these SO CALLED more effective classes... so ramble on... I'm playing the same game you are... and if you don't want a fighter in your party so be it... Fighters are the best tanks...if you asked me... if you don't...then i'm fine with that

I just don't understand all the fighter hate.

My dual wield khopesh pure fighter has +28 to hit and +27 to primary hand damage completely unbuffed with power attack on. After bard and other buffs he can hit at least +35 damage to primary hand (not counting the attack boost I mentioned in another post). Yeah he's my first level 16 character and only has a +1 str tome, but the fact that he is ALWAYS the one with aggro on any red named, and competes only with WoP players for kills on quests says to me that fighters are definately underestimated. I do think that the sacrifices required to achieve this are a little too much considering a ranger can compete with these numbers against favored enemies and also have far more utility, but to say that a fighter can't do his job is just untrue.

Ranger6/Fighter8/Rogue2

AC; Higher Dex and Icy raiments. You lose.

Melee DPS; Tempest speed + haste boost III, weapon specialization, Ram's Might, and 2 FEs. You lose.

Ranged DPS; Bow Str. You lose.

Argo control; My intim is probably better, as I have it as a class skill too, and since I have UMD as well, I'm betting my CHA is higher, not to mention skill boost if needed. And then there's that whole higher DPS thing; You lose.

Survivability; Higher AC, Higher saves, Evasion, and wands + UMD as a class skill. You lose.

Stat damage/specials ( vorpal, ect ); Tempest speed + haste boost III. You lose.

So, I guess my question to you both would be;

What effects wouldn't this toon be more effective at than a 16th level pure fighter???

Moonblood

03-18-2009, 11:03 PM

That's one build. Not Nearly every other melee.

bandyman1

03-19-2009, 01:43 AM

It was an example, and it wins every comparison on nearly any point a party might be looking for over a pure fighter.

But since you insist;

Melee DPS; Pure fighter will be outdone by nearly any multiclass fighter build ( sneak att or tempest speed ), nearly any rogue build ( sneak attack ), nearly any barb build ( crit rage and higher Str ), nearly any paladin build ( DF, DM, Smites, DS, and Zeal ), nearly any ranger build ( tempest, Ram's, and FE ), and nearly any bard build ( songs ). You beat pure monks..WHO-HOOO!!!!

Ranged DPS; Anyone with the feats can tye you here, and a ranger build trumps you without even trying.

Agro contol; Any melee with one level of Fighter, Rogue, or Barb can equal a pure fighter on intimidate. And with skill boosts and self buffs, + higher Cha, most can surpass. Not to mention the higher DPS part.

AC; If you want to go S&B ( lol ), and gimp your DPS further, you can obtain a modest AC. Still not as high as a TWFing raiment wearing melee.

Saves; Will. Enough said, rotflmao.

Survivabilty; No UMD as a class skill, + no innate wand usuage.

Stat damage/specials; Anyone can roll a 20 with a vorpal, and any build with a speed bonus ( tempest, zeal ) does this better.

So....like I said; Near any other melee.

bandyman1

03-19-2009, 02:02 AM

Moonblood

03-19-2009, 03:01 AM

Melee DPS; Pure fighter will be outdone by nearly any multiclass fighter build ( sneak att or tempest speed ), nearly any rogue build ( sneak attack ), nearly any barb build ( crit rage and higher Str ), nearly any paladin build ( DF, DM, Smites, DS, and Zeal ), nearly any ranger build ( tempest, Ram's, and FE ), and nearly any bard build ( songs ). You beat pure monks..WHO-HOOO!!!!

Of course there are situational efforts like the one's you point out... But that argument can be made with any multiclass vs. ANY pure class, I can take that same above paragraph and apply it to anyone's argument about any dps pure class with little to no effort. And carry the same zest you are, this just happens to be about the ftr.

You win tho, I lose... tell me again what you've won?

bandyman1

03-19-2009, 03:25 AM

Of course there are situational efforts like the one's you point out... But that argument can be made with any multiclass vs. ANY pure class, I can take that same above paragraph and apply it to anyone's argument about any dps pure class with little to no effort. And carry the same zest you are, this just happens to be about the ftr.

You win tho, I lose... tell me again what you've won?

My motivation here was;

There's a HUGE monster of a thread about Full Character Respec in general. I know you know this already, but how it relates here is; I've argued pro-respec for that entire thread, because several of my very best friends in this game are very casual players. They made several mistakes on their toons, and simply put, don't have the time to devote to scrapping characters and releveling and regearing toons.

What I don't want to see, is another casual/newbie, or simply less-informed player stumble onto this thread, build a pure class fighter on your words, and then find out in-game after leveling and grinding such a toon, that they simply aren't what you bill them to be. Even totally tomed and geared out.

Hadrian

03-19-2009, 03:29 AM

I hear that pure fighters can go SSJ3 and get a power level over 9000. How can you pathetic rangers compete?

hu-flung-pu

03-19-2009, 04:03 AM

I hear that pure fighters can go SSJ3 and get a power level over 9000. How can you pathetic rangers compete?

By going majin buu and being unbeatable.

Dark-Star

03-19-2009, 04:26 AM

But that argument can be made with any multiclass vs. ANY pure class, I can take that same above paragraph and apply it to anyone's argument about any dps pure class with little to no effort.

Make the argument for a multi-class sorc being better dps than a pure one.

Cold_Stele

03-19-2009, 04:32 AM

Like I said; It'll be interesting to see how a level 20 pure fighter stacks up in melee. I won't bother running numbers including capstones and PREs, because we don't know for sure that the end products will be as they're posted. All are subject to change before going live.

But as of right now; A pure 16th level fighter is gimped compared to near any simalarly equipped and tomed melee build.

Whilst I don't want to get involved in this thread...

Pure Ftr will do just fine end game. It'll out-DPS Ftr8/Rgr6 against anything but the 2 FE's. If/when GWS is implemented for lvl 20 it'll out DPS against FE too.

Ftrs fall behind Rgr and Barb only right now. Pally DPS is lacking (just look at how powerful the PrE's and Capstones have to be to make them competetive). Rogue DPS is spectacular but too unpredictable (if it was reliable we'd run around in 10 Rogue raids right?).

Scalion

03-19-2009, 05:35 AM

Moonblood

03-19-2009, 11:34 AM

I agree with steele fully... and where as bandy puts forth some half decent argument at times I hardly think you were looking out for the well being of new players vs. arguing a point that can be argu'd against any melee class simply for the sake of argument.

HP's, DAMAGE, AC + many other attributes... i'm still stick'n with the fighter... as a head strong toe to toe tank.

bandyman1

03-19-2009, 01:23 PM

Whilst I don't want to get involved in this thread...

Pure Ftr will do just fine end game. It'll out-DPS Ftr8/Rgr6 against anything but the 2 FE's. If/when GWS is implemented for lvl 20 it'll out DPS against FE too.

Ftrs fall behind Rgr and Barb only right now. Pally DPS is lacking (just look at how powerful the PrE's and Capstones have to be to make them competetive). Rogue DPS is spectacular but too unpredictable (if it was reliable we'd run around in 10 Rogue raids right?).

How so?
Ranger6/Fighter8;
10% Tempest static speed boost, haste boost III when needed, Ram's might.
Please show us how the 3 Str higher fighter out-DPSes these.

Pally DPS was lacking.
A DPS pally is 3 Str behind a fighter, and lacks WS, and GWS. That's +5 damage a hit. But the pally has DF, knocking the gap down to +2. Now add in 10% speed boost with zeal, DM, DS, and ES.
Please show us how the fighter out DPSes these.

Rogue;
+8d6+8 on every attack with good agro management ( and most of the endgame where DPS matters is crit succeptable ). Nuff' said.
Please show us how the fighter out DPSes this.

Just because you make a statement about how things work in game, doesn't make it so. I've provided the reasons pure fighters are out DPSed by my examples; Where is your reasonoing???

This is really where this post should end. Yes I can see that an 8ftr 6ranger has an edge against favored, but that's the only case where any other class can sustain the same +to hit with the competitive + damage output. Before I rolled my pure fighter I deleted a rnger/fighter because I read about kensai before capping him (thank goodness). Since we already know the advantage a ranger/fighter has over a pure fighter against 2 types of eneimes is coming to an end, it's time to just stop bickering about it.

Honestly, everyone talks like they know what it's like, but I've never run into another khopesh pure fighter, so I don't think there are many people who really know what it's like. The answers can be found in the math, but not every variable is accounted for. For instance you can say a barb can out dps a fighter, yet the fighter has higher +to hit, so it's not going to out dps the fighter in every situation.

Sorry to make this thread about dps, I don't think that's the only thing the OP was talking about when he said he enjoyed the class.

Who said it was " just about DPS "??? Although the fighter loses there too.

They also lose on Survivability, AC, and Agro control.

What do they " win " at. Oh, I know! To-hit. ( btw; Who told you barbs have a lower to-hit??? They're a full Bab class, and though they lack WF, GWF, do you realize how much higher Str they can achieve than a pure fighter??? )

Except for that whole no full bab class having problems hitting anything in this game thing......

Scalion

03-19-2009, 01:37 PM

Who said it was " just about DPS "??? Although the fighter loses there too.

They also lose on Survivability, AC, and Agro control.

What do they " win " at. Oh, I know! To-hit. ( btw; Who told you barbs have a lower to-hit??? They're a full Bab class, and though they lack WF, GWF, do you realize how much higher Str they can achieve than a pure fighter??? )

Except for that whole no full bab class having problems hitting anything in this game thing......

I think that we have differences of opinion on 'problems hitting'. I think that I have a problem hitting something if I occasionally miss. Even if you miss only 10 or 15% of the time it still means your doing 10 or 15% less damage than someone who hits 100% of the time.

If you're talking about soloing, I admit that a fighter is at a disadvantage to some other classes, but for grouping I don't see how having 100 more HP than your multiclass builds means your sacrificing surviveability. Also, I don't even know how to address your aggro control comment because I've never lost aggro.

Aaxeyu

03-19-2009, 01:38 PM

How so?
Ranger6/Fighter8;
10% Tempest static speed boost, haste boost III when needed, Ram's might.
Please show us how the 3 Str higher fighter out-DPSes these.

A pure fighter only out-dpses tempest fighters in fights that are longar than 4 minutes as they get 10 haste boosts while the tempest fighetr only gets 8.

bandyman1

03-19-2009, 01:41 PM

A pure fighter only out-dpses tempest fighters in fights that are longar than 4 minutes as they get 10 haste boosts while the tempest fighetr only gets 8.

Oh no, these clowns didn't even bother with the haste boost, they took the +5 damage boost because it " does more DPS ", lmao.

Humm...But I'd still question that, because of the tempest's static 10% during the cooldowns.

bandyman1

03-19-2009, 01:47 PM

I think that we have differences of opinion on 'problems hitting'. I think that I have a problem hitting something if I occasionally miss. Even if you miss only 10 or 15% of the time it still means your doing 10 or 15% less damage than someone who hits 100% of the time.

If you're talking about soloing, I admit that a fighter is at a disadvantage to some other classes, but for grouping I don't see how having 100 more HP than your multiclass builds means your sacrificing surviveability. Also, I don't even know how to address your aggro control comment because I've never lost aggro.

Except that no one hits 100% of the time.

100 HP less??? How the hell do you figure that? Try 20 HPs less.

And my ACs higher, my saves are higher, and I can use heal scrolls when needed.

If you've never lost aggro on your pure fighter; You're playing with some very, very ****** players.

Like I said; Easy to match your intim, and out DPSing you is no problem for probably 80+% of melee builds.

Aaxeyu

03-19-2009, 02:07 PM

Oh no, these clowns didn't even bother with the haste boost, they took the +5 damage boost because it " does more DPS ", lmao.

Humm...But I'd still question that, because of the tempest's static 10% during the cooldowns.

Rofl, aye they know what they are doing here I see.

Well, fighters also get static 10% attackspeed, along with +1 crit multiplier and some more damage.

bandyman1

03-19-2009, 02:10 PM

Rofl, aye they know what they are doing here I see. Yep :D

Well, fighters also get static 10% attackspeed, along with +1 crit multiplier and some more damage.

Naw bro. We're talking right now at the level 16 cap before mod 9. I granted them it'd be interesting to see where pure fighters stack up at level 20 with capstone and PREs.

But right now, there's no comparison. Pure fighter with all gear and tomes = gimped compared to near any other melee.

Mhykke

03-19-2009, 02:12 PM

But right now, there's no comparison. Pure fighter with all gear and tomes = gimped compared to near any other melee.

Easy bandy....

I have a pure fighter....

bandyman1

03-19-2009, 02:18 PM

Easy bandy....

I have a pure fighter....

I know bro.

So do I.

And I'd roll with you anywhere on any toon bro, you know that.

But what does that toon do better than any of your other melee honestly???

I'm really feeling some frustrations here bro. I've talked to ya about it a little. A lot of LB is really having some problems letting go of toons they spent 3 years grinding in their limited playtime, that just can't cut it at endgame.

Aaxeyu

03-19-2009, 02:22 PM

Naw bro. We're talking right now at the level 16 cap before mod 9. I granted them it'd be interesting to see where pure fighters stack up at level 20 with capstone and PREs.

But right now, there's no comparison. Pure fighter with all gear and tomes = gimped compared to near any other melee.

Ah okay, no not compared to barbs.

Barbs get 10 str and +2 to crit range, and a crapy boost.
Fighters get 3 str, 6 damage to both hands and 7 haste boosts.

bandyman1

03-19-2009, 02:30 PM

Ah okay, no not compared to barbs.

Barbs get 10 str and +2 to crit range, and a crapy boost.
Fighters get 3 str, 6 damage to both hands and 7 haste boosts.

Long as the fighter has haste boosts left, I agree. So 2 mins and 6 secs per shrine ( 18 sec/boost )

After that, 7 damage is trumped by higher Str, and better crit range.

And the barb always has better saves and higher HPs.

Aaxeyu

03-19-2009, 02:35 PM

Long as the fighter has haste boosts left, I agree. So 2 mins and 6 secs per shrine ( 18 sec/boost )

After that, 7 damage is trumped by higher Str, and better crit range.

And the barb always has better saves and higher HPs.

You do realise that 6 damage equals 12 str for main hand and 24 str in offhand, right?

I would say 19 sec per boost, and that is enough to make the fighters average dps higher for more than 5 minutes, which is more than enough.

Ehum, why would the barb have higher hp?
Fighters can grab tougness feats. And dont forget that when you have 500 hp, another 50 wont make a difference.

bandyman1

03-19-2009, 02:45 PM

You do realise that 6 damage equals 12 str for main hand and 24 str in offhand, right?

Yep. But I also realize that it's only 1 point more main hand, and 3 off hand difference because of the barbs higher Str. Now add in crit rage II. I DID say " higher Str, and better crit range ".

I would say 19 sec per boost, and that is enough to make the fighters average dps higher for more than 5 minutes, which is more than enough.

18x7=126. That's 2 mins and 6 secs. You want 19? Fine. 2 mins and 25 sec. Nowhere near " more than 5 mins ".

Ehum, why would the barb have higher hp?
Fighters can grab tougness feats. And dont forget that when you have 500 hp, another 50 wont make a difference.

So can barbs. And barbs have higher hit-die, + higher Con.

Aaxeyu

03-19-2009, 02:53 PM

Yep. But I also realize that it's only 1 point more main hand, and 3 off hand difference because of the barbs higher Str. Now add in crit rage II. I DID say " higher Str, and better crit range ".

Yes, but I also said 6 damage and haste boost.

18x7=126. That's 2 mins and 6 secs. You want 19? Fine. 2 mins and 25 sec. Nowhere near " more than 5 mins ".

That's not what I said. Read again.

So can barbs. And barbs have higher hit-die, + higher Con.

Barbs are pretty feat starved thou.
and they only get 1 more tohit.

Cold_Stele

03-19-2009, 04:13 PM

Well like I said - I promised myself I wouldn't get involved, but when Moon got ko'ed (and I'm not saying it wasn't deserved), people just had to keep on hitting him when he was down. Sorry but I just felt like I had to step in.

How so?
Ranger6/Fighter8;
10% Tempest static speed boost, haste boost III when needed, Ram's might.
Please show us how the 3 Str higher fighter out-DPSes these.

Are you asking how does pure beat Ftr/Rgr at 16 here? It doesn't of course - you get to do more DPS for a couple of weeks. Enjoy them.

Here's the numbers for 'Monster' vs pure -

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=174906

They are subject to change as they don't include Superior Weapon Spec at 20 which is anticipated in game as SWF is available at 16. Oh, and pure gets up to two more yummy Haste Boosts and power Surges.

Pally DPS was lacking.
A DPS pally is 3 Str behind a fighter, and lacks WS, and GWS. That's +5 damage a hit. But the pally has DF, knocking the gap down to +2. Now add in 10% speed boost with zeal, DM, DS, and ES.
Please show us how the fighter out DPSes these.

My pure Ftr doesn't get out-DPSed by pure Pallies, are you saying yours does? Oh dear, no wonder you're so angry at Moon :rolleyes:

Pallies have around a 5 lower Str (have to buy Str, Dex, Con and Cha), have the lowest 'to hit' of all the melees and are the most feat starved - my guy can't fit in OTWF and misses much more than I'd want him to when dual wielding Khopeshes with PA on without a Bard around.

To hit -

16 Base
9 Str (29)...16 +4 levels +6 item +2 tome +1 Human
5 Weapon
3 DF
4 GH
1 Haste
1 Rage
-9 TWF & PA

30 total (26 when moving) = not hitting everything on a 2 = lost DPS

Throw in a Beholder and that drops to 21/17 moving. Pathetic.

*edit* Something else you can't get from just looking at numbers is practical use of Madstone Rage - my Ftr can use them all day long for up to +4 Str, my Pally has to use them with caution (if at all) because his DPS is completely dependent upon short duration spells.

Oh and lastly, Divine Might, probably the best source of a Pally's DPS, isn't going to 'open up' for most builds until mod 9 when +4 tomes are available.

Pallies are for mod 9, not 8.

Rogue;
+8d6+8 on every attack with good agro management ( and most of the endgame where DPS matters is crit succeptable ). Nuff' said.
Please show us how the fighter out DPSes this.

Every attack? Come on... I had to edit out all my other replies as they would have insulted your intelligence.

If Rogue DPS was reliable we'd all delete our Rangers and roll them for our mains. But we don't. Because it isn't. End of discussion on that one.

Moonblood

03-19-2009, 08:22 PM

Appreciate it...

I can feel the love flowing :)

bandyman1

03-19-2009, 10:42 PM

But again; We're talking end game right now. Not post mod 9. Like I've said mutiple times already; It'll be interesting to see where pure fighters stack up post mod 9.

That's neither here nor now though.

Pallies have around a 5 lower Str (have to buy Str, Dex, Con and Cha), I said DPS pallys. That means maxed Str. So, 3 lower. have the lowest 'to hit' of all the melees and are the most feat starved - my guy can't fit in OTWF and misses much more than I'd want him to when dual wielding Khopeshes with PA on without a Bard around. Sucks to be you /shrugs. What weapons are you using for DPS? Just curious; because if you say min IIs, and you don't have enough feats for OTWFing, I'ma laugh at you. Note that at the present time, there's no reason for you to have to have toughness.

To hit -

16 Base
9 Str (29)...16 +4 levels +6 item +2 tome +1 Human
5 Weapon
3 DF
4 GH
1 Haste
1 Rage
-9 TWF & PA

30 total (26 when moving) = not hitting everything on a 2 = lost DPS

Throw in a Beholder and that drops to 21/17 moving. Pathetic. Because beholders are high AC mobs, right :rolleyes:?

*edit* Something else you can't get from just looking at numbers is practical use of Madstone Rage - my Ftr can use them all day long for up to +4 Str, my Pally has to use them with caution (if at all) because his DPS is completely dependent upon short duration spells.

Oh and lastly, Divine Might, probably the best source of a Pally's DPS, isn't going to 'open up' for most builds until mod 9 when +4 tomes are available. Naw. Most pallys can have at least DM III right now.

Pallies are for mod 9, not 8. Whatever dude.

Every attack? Come on... I had to edit out all my other replies as they would have insulted your intelligence. Assuming the rogue has good agro management ( High Diplo, maxed SB, and enough intelligence to follow an ACTUAL high DPS melee into the fray ); I stand by my statement.

If Rogue DPS was reliable we'd all delete our Rangers and roll them for our mains. But we don't. Because it isn't. End of discussion on that one.

In RED.

bandyman1

03-19-2009, 10:49 PM

Yes, but I also said 6 damage and haste boost.

And I gave you the boost, and the 6 damage.

That's not what I said. Read again.

Yes you'll have 7 boosts in 5 minutes bro, but; You can't count on a shrine every five minutes bro for all content. That's just not the way the game works.

Barbs are pretty feat starved thou.
and they only get 1 more tohit.

Never said they weren't. And never said anything about to-hit. Read again. I said hit die; As in d12/level vs d10. That's 32 HPs at 16th level. Which the fighter will have to take two toughness feats to surpass. But then, the barb also has higher Con...

In Red.

wankydasmoto

03-20-2009, 01:15 AM

Bah, stupid numbers :mad:

Didn't you guys have this discussion about a year or so ago, except it was rangers instead of fighters?

2007 Ranger: "No really! I'm a good party member! I promise I won't take out a bow! No! Don't take another arcane! BAH!!!"

2009 Fighter: "No really! I'm a good party member! I promise I won't take out a shield! No! Don't take another ranger/monk! BAH!!"

And now bandy can tell me that no ones cares what I think, and I'l read his reply and imagine typing "look in the mirror when you say that bro," but won't.

Well, actually maybe I'll skip it, I mean I skipped reading the rest of the thread right? :D

Aaxeyu

03-20-2009, 02:48 AM

In Red.

If you are saying that haste boost isn't reliable then I won't waste more time discussing with you. I am tierd of barb players ignorance towards hasteboost, try it yourself and you will see that it works perfectly fine.

Cold_Stele

03-20-2009, 03:06 AM

But again; We're talking end game right now. Not post mod 9. Like I've said mutiple times already; It'll be interesting to see where pure fighters stack up post mod 9.

That's neither here nor now though.

Horsecrap.

I don't give a **** what the situation is now, it'll be mod 9 in a few weeks and then Moon will out-DPS your precious little Ftr/Rgr.

Sorry that you 'have issues' that your Lightbringer chums are playing old toons. Try venting at them maybe or possibly even get over it, what with it being a game and all. Curious what it is your failing though that that you feel your guildies all need to reroll to FOTM month builds?

Re. your comments about an 18 Str Pally with DM III right now - shows me you have no clue what you're talking about (here's a hint - what's his Con?).

And re. your comment that a Rogue can ALWAYS get SA damage - I guess I wasn't insulting your intelligence, you really don't have a clue (yet another hint - Harry and fortification).

But, back to Pally, you think an OTWF Pally having an unbuffed 'to hit' of 23/19 is good? Again, no clue.

Cold_Stele

03-20-2009, 03:16 AM

If you are saying that haste boost isn't reliable then I won't waste more time discussing with you. I am tierd of barb players ignorance towards hasteboost, try it yourself and you will see that it works perfectly fine.

*old post edited out when I looked at what Aaxeyu and Bandy were actually debating*

Nah, I'm going with Bandy on this one, mod 8 Barb>mod 8 Ftr, regardless of Haste Boosts.

From actually playing ALL of the builds we're discussing (except Ftr/Rgr) Rgr>Barb>Ftr>Pally>Rog.

Rogue gets last place as DPS is either spectacular or negligable.

Moonblood

03-20-2009, 03:53 AM

I'm pretty sure... wait... I know I just took some screenshots of part 5 in the shroud...

4 barbarians
1 ranger
1 ranger/monk/rogue
besides myself... I lost aggro for mabye 1 split second.... around 3 times the entire fight...

screenshot shows me at 615hp... 38str ... no bark skin, no ac songs, no pally's around my ac was around 40 i think... and harry in my face while i'm the only toon on that side of him... I wonder why?? How??? Can this be??? is everyone's toon gimp??? I don't think so... was I even the first one in??? Nope... does Harry just think I'm that gorgeous... probably... Maybe it's my Gimp fighter and his Gimp DPS Gimping his way thru with a gimp party...

now forgive me if I don't quote numbers and all the rah rah rah some of you do... but this is not a freak occasion...just one I per this post took a screenshot of... I hardly think your going to see a rogue or a pally toss the consistant numbers that grace my combat log...or a barb that isn't going to take twice the mana from the cleric to deliver a bit more damage while raged... I really don't... Call me crazy... are there builds that can... YES...never said there weren't...

But please... Give me a break... situational is just that... Let a good tank be a good tank and quit try'n to take away from it what you can't... and that's damage, durability, and **** good game play when played to it's attributes... I've never even heard of a ranger with a 38str in any situation... but I could be wrong...and i'm sure you'll let me know...

this is not a toon i rolled 3 years ago and can't let go of... this is a toon that performs to its design above many others i've seen since it's roll...

I'm not bragging about this toon... I'm bragging about the class and what it can be and do...are there better toons than mine ...of course... of various classes... sure... But it is seldom said that the ftr is upper tier...and i'm not sorry I do... will the new mod give'm more of what they need? you bet... and they deserve even more than they're getting... but there's plenty of threads on that...

now then
bandy...plz tell me how you have more str with RM or 20 less hp's or how the hp dif. (because I know it's more than 20) doesn't balance out the ac gap between your toon and mine? Unless I mis quoted you.... did I? I know i'm a "clown"... also i'd like to know why ranged damage is even brought up in a tank conversation as a virtue? or a "win"? Or how tanking is stopping the melee to hop around and use scrolls or wand whip yourself... Isn't really tanking then is it? Tanks rely on healing classes... not a loss...it's how the game is designed...

anywayz

/flame on

Milamber69

03-20-2009, 10:25 AM

Hope this helps.
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=147492

Gunga

03-20-2009, 10:52 AM

bandyman1

03-20-2009, 11:16 AM

Horsecrap.

I don't give a **** what the situation is now, it'll be mod 9 in a few weeks and then Moon will out-DPS your precious little Ftr/Rgr. Yes, he will...when he gets level 20, and assuming SWS IS actually implemented.. But; That's not what he claimed.

Sorry that you 'have issues' that your Lightbringer chums are playing old toons. Try venting at them maybe or possibly even get over it, what with it being a game and all. Curious what it is your failing though that that you feel your guildies all need to reroll to FOTM month builds? No failing, just tired of logging out of a PWNY or AM run, logging in on an LB toon, and hearing friends of mine ***** about their toons being ineffective compared to others.

Re. your comments about an 18 Str Pally with DM III right now - shows me you have no clue what you're talking about (here's a hint - what's his Con?). 22

And re. your comment that a Rogue can ALWAYS get SA damage - I guess I wasn't insulting your intelligence, you really don't have a clue (yet another hint - Harry and fortification). Yep, which is why I said crit vulnerable mobs. Fort kinda negates that, but then again, Harry only has 25-50%.

But, back to Pally, you think an OTWF Pally having an unbuffed 'to hit' of 23/19 is good? Again, no clue. lmao, Yeah, because gobs of tanking is done unbuffed, right? And the pally's never gonna throw a DF to close the gap with the fighter, I mean; How often does that happen???

PS; Actually unbuffed it's closer to 25/21 :D. You're numbers are skewed.

In RED.

bandyman1

03-20-2009, 11:24 AM

blah, blah, blah....blah, blah...blah, blah

Run more Shrouds bro :rolleyes:.

Here's a lil hint; Have a high intim tank grab him ( make sure he succeeds ), then you and the rest circle his back and watch his agro for those 6 seconds....

bandyman1

03-20-2009, 11:31 AM

If you are saying that haste boost isn't reliable then I won't waste more time discussing with you. I am tierd of barb players ignorance towards hasteboost, try it yourself and you will see that it works perfectly fine.

I have it. The highest level possible on every toon that possibly can have it.

Does my ranger6/rogue2/fighter8 with tempest and haste boost III out DPS most barbs??? Probably. While I'm boosted. 20 minute shrouds bro. Shrine at the end of every part, but I'm not boosted 100% of the time there, and neither would you be.

Moonblood

03-20-2009, 11:31 AM

Are you serious? Harry just stands there and looks at you because you do so much more damage than everyone else?

Huh. Never saw that happen, but I've only done 650 shrouds. Maybe you'll show me how he does that the next time we group together

I told ya it was cuz i'm better looking... that's a lot of shrouds tho... shall i begin the NH'n here and now?

Run more Shrouds bro

I seriously don't want to... do i have to?

HeavenlyCloud

03-20-2009, 11:40 AM

I told ya it was cuz i'm better looking... that's a lot of shrouds tho... shall i begin the NH'n here and now?

I seriously don't want to... do i have to?

I don't want to comment about your build or any comments you've done, but its common knowledge that Arraetrikos's aggro is random in part 4 and 5.

Accelerando

03-20-2009, 11:50 AM

Rogue gets last place as DPS is either spectacular or negligable.

zzzzz

Both of my str based tempest rogues laugh at this sentiment. I have to spam diplo
so hard I've had to replace two logitech controllers since I built the first one, and
I haven't met a fighter yet who can keep aggro off me without using intimidate.

Here is the kicker, I have been out of game for 7 months and neither of these characters are even using greensteel.

So how exactly is that negliagble DPS?

Cold_Stele

03-20-2009, 11:51 AM

OK Bandy now I'm starting to feel sorry for you, so I'm going to give this 18 base Str DM III Pally a +3 Cha tome to help him get there.

32 point Human

Str 18
Dex 15
Con 8
Int 8
Wis 8
Cha 15

Drow

Str 18
Dex 15
Con 8
Int 10
Wis 10
Cha 15

22 Final Con???

/Epic fail.

Stop now before you hurt yourself...

Moonblood

03-20-2009, 11:56 AM

Ah well... Never heard that before... you made your point without any filler or banter... I can be corrected when actually taught... ty

bandyman1

03-20-2009, 11:57 AM

Cold_Stele

03-20-2009, 11:59 AM

zzzzz

Both of my str based tempest rogues laugh at this sentiment. I have to spam diplo
so hard I've had to replace two logitech controllers since I built the first one, and
I haven't met a fighter yet who can keep aggro off me without using intimidate.

Here is the kicker, I have been out of game for 7 months and neither of these characters are even using greensteel.

So how exactly is that negliagble DPS?

No melee can out-DPS a Rogue, provided you're getting SA damage.

But that's not 100% of the time though is it?

Cold_Stele

03-20-2009, 12:01 PM

Not a TWFing pally :D

Oh, a gimp S&B or THF Pally?

You're saying that's going to out-DPS a TWF Ftr?

Come back when you've got something constructive to say...

bandyman1

03-20-2009, 12:04 PM

Oh, a gimp S&B or THF Pally?

Why bro??? This thread is a joke. It has been since the OP, where moonblood claimed a Str, Con fighter was the APEX of melee. I can't have fun???

Seriously; No. No S&B or THFer is going to out-DPS even a decent TWFer.

But, a GTWFing pally with a starting 16 Str can and will out-DPS most TWFing pure fighters. Just via zeal, DM, ES, and DS, when those fighters don't even have enough game knowledge to pick fighter haste boost over fighter damage boost.

Accelerando

03-20-2009, 12:13 PM

No melee can out-DPS a Rogue, provided you're getting SA damage.

But that's not 100% of the time though is it?

Its **** well close enough, and when its not... well I do **** good damage anyway. Making statements that rogues are worthless DPS when not getting
SA is just a blatant falsehood, well maybe your rogues.

Cold_Stele

03-20-2009, 12:36 PM

Its **** well close enough, and when its not... well I do **** good damage anyway. Making statements that rogues are worthless DPS when not getting
SA is just a blatant falsehood, well maybe your rogues.

I believe I said 'spectacular or negligible.'

So you get SA on Shroud Portals, Constructs, Elementals, Undead and 100% on Harry?

Wow.

Accelerando

03-20-2009, 12:45 PM

I believe I said 'spectacular or negligible.'

So you get SA on Shroud Portals, Constructs, Elementals, Undead and 100% on Harry?

Wow.

I'm not talking about your average s***** dex based rogue. The DPS is not negligible on SA immune mobs if you bother to build your character for sustainable
DPS.

So lets change that quote to "spectacular or serviceable" and leave it at that.

Aaxeyu

03-20-2009, 12:47 PM

Why bro??? This thread is a joke. It has been since the OP, where moonblood claimed a Str, Con fighter was the APEX of melee. I can't have fun???

Seriously; No. No S&B or THFer is going to out-DPS even a decent TWFer.

But, a GTWFing pally with a starting 16 Str can and will out-DPS most TWFing pure fighters. Just via zeal, DM, ES, and DS, when those fighters don't even have enough game knowledge to pick fighter haste boost over fighter damage boost.

You are wrong. Paladins will not have very good DPS, even when using DS every 3 second they will have lower dps than fighters.
Got the calcs in one of the Monster threads if you want too see for yourself.

Gfunks paladin calcs are pretty flawed IMO, as they take in account for a very short period of time. Your smites are very limited. (Yes I do play a paladin).

Oh, now i read the whole post, Yea, fighters who skip hasteboost wont be able to outdamage paladins^^

Aaxeyu

03-20-2009, 12:49 PM

Its **** well close enough, and when its not... well I do **** good damage anyway. Making statements that rogues are worthless DPS when not getting
SA is just a blatant falsehood, well maybe your rogues.

I'm not talking about your average s***** dex based rogue. The DPS is not negligible on SA immune mobs if you bother to build your character for sustainable
DPS.

So lets change that quote to "spectacular or serviceable" and leave it at that.

Compared to other melee toons they actually have bad dps against mobs who are immune to SA.
They get NOTHING to boost their damage except haste boost and SA.

But nothing beats a tempest rogue who gets SA, nothing.

Aaxeyu

03-20-2009, 12:55 PM

I have it. The highest level possible on every toon that possibly can have it.

Does my ranger6/rogue2/fighter8 with tempest and haste boost III out DPS most barbs??? Probably. While I'm boosted. 20 minute shrouds bro. Shrine at the end of every part, but I'm not boosted 100% of the time there, and neither would you be.

It outdps's the barbs so much during those 20 sec that it will take the barbs quite some time to recover.
That's what I mean with "average dps".

Accelerando

03-20-2009, 12:56 PM

Compared to other melee toons they actually have bad dps against mobs who are immune to SA.
They get NOTHING to boost their damage except haste boost and SA.

Last i checked Power Attack, and Ram's Might add to damage output.

Nick_RC

03-20-2009, 01:43 PM

Horsecrap.

I don't give a **** what the situation is now, it'll be mod 9 in a few weeks and then Moon will out-DPS your precious little Ftr/Rgr.

No he wont. The dude uses damage boost and a Greataxe. He will think he will tho.

Curious what it is your failing though that that you feel your guildies all need to reroll to FOTM month builds?

No Steel wrong sentiment and personally I dont appreciate the tone ur using here. Bandys a bud of mine and an excellent player. He typically runs with some of the best folks on argo. He also has strong loyalties to a more casual guild that he has a chraracter in. He is consantly trying to help them improve their toons using their current builds because they dont have the desire to reroll. That is why hes frustrated because theres little wiggle room.

Nick_RC

03-20-2009, 01:56 PM

I'm pretty sure... wait... I know I just took some screenshots of part 5 in the shroud...

4 barbarians
1 ranger
1 ranger/monk/rogue
besides myself... I lost aggro for mabye 1 split second.... around 3 times the entire fight...

And this shows where u should stop talking right now. Ur shooting urself in the foot in this thread. His agros random.

Maybe it's my Gimp fighter and his Gimp DPS Gimping his way thru with a gimp party...

now forgive me if I don't quote numbers

Because they dont support you.

or a barb that isn't going to take twice the mana from the cleric to deliver a bit more damage while raged...

Hahahah what do you think your 40 ac, craptastic reflex save is gonna do for you in mitigating dmg? Barbs esp 2wf barbs can shoot their reflex to low 30s for most of that fight.

But please... Give me a break... situational is just that... Let a good tank be a good tank and quit try'n to take away from it what you can't... and that's damage, durability, and **** good game play when played to it's attributes...

Next mod I wont mind listening to that argument. This mod ur dreaming.

I've never even heard of a ranger with a 38str in any situation... but I could be wrong...and i'm sure you'll let me know...

18 +4 base
6 tri raged
6 Item
+3 tome
+1 human/exceptional
+2 Rams

= 40 - 38 with a simple +2 tome and no exceptional stat. Seriously you might wanna learn a lil more about other builds before u spout nonsence.

mod give'm more of what they need? you bet... and they deserve even more than they're getting... but there's plenty of threads on that...

The what was this post about then? You say theres no comparison then u say they deserve more than what they are getting?? Was it purely propaganda??

/flameon - go for it.

Comments in red

Aspenor

03-20-2009, 02:00 PM

I'll say it again...

Rogue > All

boldarblood

03-20-2009, 02:30 PM

Aaxeyu

03-20-2009, 02:47 PM

Last i checked Power Attack, and Ram's Might add to damage output.

Last time I checked Ram's is not a rogue ability and PA is avalible to every class.

I am not trying to put down your tempest rogue, I know how awesome they are, but saying that they have high dps without SA is plain false.

Moonblood

03-20-2009, 04:36 PM

Well I certainly stated that I did not know that and thanked cloud for letting me know without being a complete bag... which I guess is not enough for you red lettered apex forum users...

Ok folks

I AM WRONG

FIGHTERS SUCK

ALL OF'M

NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO

UNTIL THE NEXT MOD... NO USE FOR'M

Happy 2 man shroud?? I hope so , cuz that's about all you'll get.

No Steel wrong sentiment and personally I dont appreciate the tone ur using here

wow... now that's funny... nice tone isn't exactly what i've come to know your tag for in the last 3 years... but whatever....

You are A GOD.

Cold_Stele

03-20-2009, 05:27 PM

bandyman1

03-20-2009, 05:44 PM

Sorry Nick but if you come to the Ftr forum and describe them as 'the gimpest of all melees' you're not going to make many friends.

Even his guildie Mhykke told him he was out of line.

If he's frustrated with his guildies he needs to deal with them, not use the OP as a punching bag.

Agreed Cold.

Out of line and exagerated a bit.

Probably a knee-jerk response to a pure 16th level fighter being called the APEX of melee...when I think everyone with a moderate amount of game knowledge will admit it's just not true.

You try tweaking builds for people that simply won't reroll for months on end though, and then stumple on a post like this claiming that half of them are APEX if they just grind the right gear and tomes.

Frustrating to say the least.

Nick_RC

03-20-2009, 06:01 PM

Sorry Nick but if you come to the Ftr forum and describe them as 'the gimpest of all melees' you're not going to make many friends.

Even his guildie Mhykke told him he was out of line.

If he's frustrated with his guildies he needs to deal with them, not use the OP as a punching bag.

Meh all good and true enough. I have a tendency to stick my nose in when my buds are swingin ;p Me and Moon are on Argo - there's is a lil bad blood between the OP and myself because of some shenanigans recently.

"Happy 2 man shroud?? I hope so , cuz that's about all you'll get."

Now thats funny.

N

Cold_Stele

03-20-2009, 06:04 PM

Hey Bandy, it's all cool bud.

Takes real integrity to make a post like that, men of honor are harder to find every day. I can see why you're so popular with the guys you run with.

Nick - hope to run with you again some time.

Mhykke

03-20-2009, 06:53 PM

Hey Bandy, I can see why you're so popular with the guys you run with.

He's also very popular with the guys at the local truck stops on the highway near his house.

Just sayin....

Moonblood

03-20-2009, 07:06 PM

Really, i didn't know we had bad blood... I don't even know who your toons are on argo... wow what an impact you've have had on me

I know me and Mhykke had issue and settled... but you... who are you?

Cold_Stele

03-20-2009, 07:19 PM

Let it go Moon, seriously.

Everyone else has agreed to call it a day I think.

Moonblood

03-20-2009, 07:59 PM

yeah ok.

HeavenlyCloud

03-20-2009, 10:49 PM

Let it go Moon, seriously.

Everyone else has agreed to call it a day I think.

I never did that!

You are A GOD.
I know :).

IgorUnchained

03-20-2009, 10:57 PM

Accelerando

03-21-2009, 02:47 AM

Last time I checked Ram's is not a rogue ability and PA is avalible to every class.

I am not trying to put down your tempest rogue, I know how awesome they are, but saying that they have high dps without SA is plain false.

I certainly hope you are not trying to put down my tempest rogue, because you can't.

I don't really want to turn this into a debate over the worthiness of str. based tempest rogues, but with (albeit limited) +60% attack speed, a 32 str, and power attack the DPS when SA is not available while not dominant, is as I said, serviceable. It should also be kept in mind that most mobs where a rog is not getting SA are also immune to crits, or easily destroyed with special weapon effects/WoP.

Aaxeyu

03-21-2009, 04:38 AM

I certainly hope you are not trying to put down my tempest rogue, because you can't.

I don't really want to turn this into a debate over the worthiness of str. based tempest rogues, but with (albeit limited) +60% attack speed, a 32 str, and power attack the DPS when SA is not available while not dominant, is as I said, serviceable. It should also be kept in mind that most mobs where a rog is not getting SA are also immune to crits, or easily destroyed with special weapon effects/WoP.

You really are defensive.

No, I am NOT trying to put down your tempest rogue, but they don't have very good dps against non SA-able mobs.

It's not that hard to figure out.
Here is a comparison (mod9):
Barbs: 14 str, 6d6 damage on every hit, 3 PA enhancements.
Fighters : 8 damage, 10 haste boosts, 10% attackspeed, 8 str from PS, 3 str from enhancements
Ranger/rog/monks: 12 damage, 5x15% haste boosts, extra mainhand attack on the last swing, 10% attackspeed, 2 str, 2 damage from rams. 10% attackspeed.
Tempest fighters:6 damage vs 2 favoured. 7 damage, 8x hasteboosts, 8 str from PS, 3 str from enhancements, 2 str and 2 damage from rams. 10% attackspeed.
Tempest rogues: 7 hasteboosts, 2 str 2 damage from rams. 6 damage vs 2 favored, 10% attackspeed.

Can you see it now? They have low dps vs non SA-able mobs.

Accelerando

03-21-2009, 05:20 AM

You really are defensive.

No, I am NOT trying to put down your tempest rogue, but they don't have very good dps against non SA-able mobs.

It's not that hard to figure out.
Here is a comparison (mod9):
Barbs: 14 str, 6d6 damage on every hit, 3 PA enhancements.
Fighters : 8 damage, 10 haste boosts, 10% attackspeed, 8 str from PS, 3 str from enhancements
Ranger/rog/monks: 12 damage, 5x15% haste boosts, extra mainhand attack on the last swing, 10% attackspeed, 2 str, 2 damage from rams. 10% attackspeed.
Tempest fighters:6 damage vs 2 favoured. 7 damage, 8x hasteboosts, 8 str from PS, 3 str from enhancements, 2 str and 2 damage from rams. 10% attackspeed.
Tempest rogues: 7 hasteboosts, 2 str 2 damage from rams. 6 damage vs 2 favored, 10% attackspeed.

Can you see it now? They have low dps vs non SA-able mobs.

Fixed that for you.

Look at the difference in the kensai and tempest rogue as you wrote it (and what I fixed for you) We are talking about a difference of 11 damage per swing max on non favored, and a difference of 5 damage per swing vs favored. Considering the HP of mobs and the much higher AC of a well built tempest rogue (i.e. the ability to stay in full time combat w/o a dedicated healer) the difference in practice (not hypothetical number crunching) is next to negligable. How this equals low dps and not as i said serviceable dps is beyond me. You must be playing a different game than I.

uhgungawa

03-21-2009, 05:21 AM

At end game, Tomed out, geared out, there is a substitute

Anything else :D

Aaxeyu

03-21-2009, 05:31 AM

Fixed that for you.

Look at the difference in the kensai and tempest rogue as you wrote it (and what I fixed for you) We are talking about a difference of 11 damage per swing max on non favored, and a difference of 5 damage per swing vs favored. Considering the HP of mobs and the much higher AC of a well built tempest rogue (i.e. the ability to stay in full time combat w/o a dedicated healer) the difference in practice (not hypothetical number crunching) is next to negligable. How this equals low dps and not as i said serviceable dps is beyond me. You must be playing a different game than I.

It makes quite a big difference, 5 damage on each hand and 3 boosts is quite alot.
I wont waste more time on you so have fun in your bubble.

”It is impossible to defeat an ignorant man in argument.”
- William G. McAdoo

Accelerando

03-22-2009, 04:47 AM

It makes quite a big difference, 5 damage on each hand and 3 boosts is quite alot.
I wont waste more time on you so have fun in your bubble.

”It is impossible to defeat an ignorant man in argument.”
- William G. McAdoo

It seems that you don't care to even read other's posts. You just assume you are correct, retype irrelevant information, quote barely literate and wholly unsuccessful 20th century politicians (from some random internet quote database I am sure), and move on.

Well you can have fun in your bubble my friend. Where you are always correct and your precious number crunching is the true measure of a character's effectiveness and their "DPS" regardless of other contributing factors.

Considering the HP of mobs and the much higher AC of a well built tempest rogue (i.e. the ability to stay in full time combat w/o a dedicated healer) the difference in practice (not hypothetical number crunching) is next to negligable.

Aaxeyu

03-22-2009, 04:59 AM

It seems that you don't care to even read other's posts. You just assume you are correct, retype irrelevant information, quote barely literate and wholly unsuccessful 20th century politicians (from some random internet quote database I am sure), and move on.

Well you can have fun in your bubble my friend. Where you are always correct and your precious number crunching is the true measure of a character's effectiveness and their "DPS" regardless of other contributing factors.

It seems I touched a nerve^^

Boohoo, someone said something bad about your favorite toon:(

Hadrian

03-22-2009, 05:22 AM

Considering the HP of mobs and the much higher AC of a well built tempest rogue (i.e. the ability to stay in full time combat w/o a dedicated healer) the difference in practice (not hypothetical number crunching) is next to negligable.

Isn't one of the goals of the rogue not to have aggro in the first place? Do you make an effort to build your character to avoid aggro?

(I quoted this from the post on this page of the thread. The link does not go back to the original post which you quoted yourself from.)

Accelerando

03-22-2009, 07:11 AM

It seems I touched a nerve^^

Boohoo, someone said something bad about your favorite toon:(

Not really, but you have shown yourself to be highly self indulgent and incapable of intelligent debate.

Isn't one of the goals of the rogue not to have aggro in the first place? Do you make an effort to build your character to avoid aggro?

(I quoted this from the post on this page of the thread. The link does not go back to the original post which you quoted yourself from.)

Hey another guy who doesn't want to read! Awesome. We are talking about mobs where SA is not available, not due to bad aggro management, but because of game mechanics.

(Also I made sure just for you that this quote does not go back to your original post, that way you have something to nitpick over.)

Scalion

03-22-2009, 08:57 AM

I've done some thinking over the past two days about this whole melee dps debate and ultimately it comes down to a couple of very simply things when comparing classes.

There are some builds and some classes who can out dps a fighter. This thread and many other have shown this to be true.

The one thing that really sets the fighter apart from every other class in the game is that they don't rely on special circumstances, spells, or temporary effects to do their job. Rangers and Paladins can run out of power, clickies can run dry, barbarians can run out of rages, all a rogue has to do is draw attention. If you take all of those things away you leave only monks and fighters who are still competitive.

Of course this game being set up the way it is, those circumstances don't come very often. Especially to those who've been around the longest and have a regular group to run with, and do the same quests a hundred times.

Moonblood

03-22-2009, 04:40 PM

Don't waste your time...

THey've been drinking eachothers cool aid for way to long...

bandyman1

03-22-2009, 04:52 PM

Don't waste your time...

THey've been drinking eachothers cool aid for way to long...

Apparently it's better for the mental state then the Absinthe you've apparently been drinking a LOT of.

Moonblood

03-22-2009, 05:07 PM

Apparently it's better for the mental state then the Absinthe you've apparently been drinking a LOT of.

wow i'm so hurt.

bandyman1

03-22-2009, 05:20 PM

wow i'm so hurt.

Of course you're hurting!!!

I mean hell man; Everyone knew that the moment they read the OP :D.

Cold_Stele

03-22-2009, 05:50 PM

Fixed that for you.

Look at the difference in the kensai and tempest rogue as you wrote it (and what I fixed for you) We are talking about a difference of 11 damage per swing max on non favored, and a difference of 5 damage per swing vs favored. Considering the HP of mobs and the much higher AC of a well built tempest rogue (i.e. the ability to stay in full time combat w/o a dedicated healer) the difference in practice (not hypothetical number crunching) is next to negligable. How this equals low dps and not as i said serviceable dps is beyond me. You must be playing a different game than I.

Not wanting to troll or anything but...

How is 11 damage per swing negligible?

And how is your AC so much higher on a Str build Rogue? Both are going to have base Dex of 15, maybe 16. So you're stuck with light armor (maybe with some Dwarf Armor Mastery?) but only getting an extra +2 AC from Tempest and +1/2 from Rogue Dex III right?

Oh, last thing - you do realise the irony of claiming Rogue DPS is so great, when you are in fact getting your DPS from 6 levels of Ranger, right?

Accelerando

03-22-2009, 06:46 PM

Not wanting to troll or anything but...

How is 11 damage per swing negligible?

And how is your AC so much higher on a Str build Rogue? Both are going to have base Dex of 15, maybe 16. So you're stuck with light armor (maybe with some Dwarf Armor Mastery?) but only getting an extra +2 AC from Tempest and +1/2 from Rogue Dex III right?

11 damage per MAIN HAND swing is negligible if it is situational and non-sustainable. Please name me one high level quest where not only are mob's not able to be SA but are also immune to WoP/Vorpal/Smiting/Disruption/and Banishing. At the same time there are short enough distances between shrines so that the Kensai can be constantly in Power Surge and Haste Boost.

Oh, last thing - you do realise the irony of claiming Rogue DPS is so great, when you are in fact getting your DPS from 6 levels of Ranger, right?

I wish I could be bothered to go back into this thread and count how many times i typed TEMPEST ROGUE in my posts, but I could really care less.

jmelanie7

03-22-2009, 07:01 PM

it'll be mod 9 in a few weeks

Do you know something i don't?

Gunga

03-22-2009, 07:03 PM

KaTet DPS is so powerful, that it causes lag on all servers.

We're not sorry.

jmelanie7

03-22-2009, 07:08 PM

KaTet DPS is so powerful, that it causes lag on all servers.

We're not sorry.

So you guys are all pure fighters? :D

Gunga

03-22-2009, 08:12 PM

So you guys are all pure fighters? :D

We don't allow pure fighters in guild. Palis, Barbs, Rogues and reluctantly rangers.

That's where you find your DPS. But if the lag really gets you down, roll a fighter.

Sabotage

03-22-2009, 08:42 PM

We don't allow pure fighters in guild. Palis, Barbs, Rogues and reluctantly rangers.

That's where you find your DPS. But if the lag really gets you down, roll a fighter.

Whats wrong with rangers? :D

wankydasmoto

03-22-2009, 09:59 PM

No Steel wrong sentiment and personally I dont appreciate the tone ur using here. Bandys a bud of mine and an excellent player. He typically runs with some of the best folks on argo. He also has strong loyalties to a more casual guild that he has a chraracter in. He is consantly trying to help them improve their toons using their current builds because they dont have the desire to reroll. That is why hes frustrated because theres little wiggle room.

Agreed Cold.

Out of line and exagerated a bit.

Probably a knee-jerk response to a pure 16th level fighter being called the APEX of melee...when I think everyone with a moderate amount of game knowledge will admit it's just not true.

You try tweaking builds for people that simply won't reroll for months on end though, and then stumple on a post like this claiming that half of them are APEX if they just grind the right gear and tomes.

Frustrating to say the least.

Enlightening.

So when you guys think someone should reroll, they should just do it? Like the whole "jump!" and "how high sir?!" situation?

And then if they don't they become an in-game source of frustration? Seems to me this says more about the person getting frustrated than the people not rerolling.

bandyman1

03-23-2009, 12:25 AM

And then if they don't they become an in-game source of frustration? Seems to me this says more about the person getting frustrated than the people not rerolling.

They do when they're constantly asking you how they can improve their toons, because ( get this part here, it's important ) they aren't happy with them. Only so much tweaking you can do with a toon that just wasn't built to be effective. Buy I really don't expect you to know this.

Pretty much figured on you throwing blame on the peeps that are trying to help them though. I mean hell; Apparently we have the gall to call your boss clueless. Of course, if he wasn't posting clueless **** to begin with, wouldn't really be an issue, now would it?

Play the game more, kiss Moon's ass less.

Best advice I can give ya. GL and you're welcome ;).

Persig

03-23-2009, 12:34 AM

Scion my favorite build of yours is the "devil's advocate forum junkie" nice job dude. not very playable in game, but it has it's niche purposes.

Mhykke

03-23-2009, 12:38 AM

I think people are taking the OP a bit too literally. I didn't take the OP literally, I'm pretty sure he accepts any melee into groups, and doesn't just hold out for fighters.

I think Moon was just presenting an argument against the "fighters are gimps" comments some like to throw around, and having a bit of fun with it. I think that's fair. Fighters aren't gimps, they're solid, and only getting better in the next mod.

Kiranselie

03-23-2009, 12:38 AM

Rogues. That's where you find your DPS.

I knew you'd come around one of these days Gunga :D

Kiranselie

03-23-2009, 12:41 AM

Moonblood

03-23-2009, 01:13 AM

I do know the next time I stumble in a 5 am... read a bunch of fighter gimp comments and decide to roll against the grain... I'll remember these fine times... and quickly change my mind.

I love my toons, I love this game, I love the people I play with and they know what the person behind the names is all about... that's plenty for me.

Bandy... If you spent 5min in our guild chat...you'd know nobody kisses my a$$...

Cold_Stele

03-23-2009, 03:36 AM

I wish I could be bothered to go back into this thread and count how many times i typed TEMPEST ROGUE in my posts, but I could really care less.

Yes, yes. Perhaps when I put 'Rogue DPS is either spectacular or negligible' and you replied with that huge rant of yours you might have given it a little more thought? So actually what you're trying to say is 'sorry you were right, Rogue DPS can be negligible in situations, hence the reason why I personally devoted nearly 40% of my levels to a different class.'

Seriously - I have absolutely no idea why you got involved in this thread...

Cold_Stele

03-23-2009, 04:24 AM

...

Hadrian

03-23-2009, 07:28 AM

Hey another guy who doesn't want to read! Awesome. We are talking about mobs where SA is not available, not due to bad aggro management, but because of game mechanics.

That seems to me to be beside the point. Aggro reduction still works on those creatures, doesn't it? If you're not getting aggro, you're not taking damage and able to stay in and attack.

You stated that a contributing factor to your DPS was your ability to stay in and take hits due to a high AC. You would have been able to take your aggro reduction as another way in which you're able to stand in there and deliver DPS, but you didn't seem to notice. If you're doing merely "servicable damage" and adding aggro reduction on top of that, there is no way that you have aggro unless you're the only one in melee.

It just seems like you're trolling at this point. Flaming someone who is trying to support you because you care more about being insulting than understanding the point of a post.

I realized that I had better spell it out for you (http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/jgould2005/DDO/Items/Bracers/TharnesBracers.jpg) or you would probably say something about subtle backstabber not working. This aggro reduction is not situational.

Accelerando

03-23-2009, 08:02 AM

That seems to me to be beside the point. Aggro reduction still works on those creatures, doesn't it? If you're not getting aggro, you're not taking damage and able to stay in and attack.

You stated that a contributing factor to your DPS was your ability to stay in and take hits due to a high AC. You would have been able to take your aggro reduction as another way in which you're able to stand in there and deliver DPS, but you didn't seem to notice. If you're doing merely "servicable damage" and adding aggro reduction on top of that, there is no way that you have aggro unless you're the only one in melee.

It just seems like you're trolling at this point. Flaming someone who is trying to support you because you care more about being insulting than understanding the point of a post.

Actually I was talking about the fighter's relatively low AC and general lack of aggro reduction. This causes the fighter to be taking more damage and w/o dedicated healing to be in battle for less time, as some time would be spent kiting and drinking pots, wand whipping (if even possible for the character) etc. During this time a rogue's negligible (lol) DPS will be pulling aggro as the fighter is running around trying not to die and doing little to no damage at all. ;)

I realized that I had better spell it out for you (http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/jgould2005/DDO/Items/Bracers/TharnesBracers.jpg) or you would probably say something about subtle backstabber not working. This aggro reduction is not situational.

This aggro reduction is also not something i can pick up at a vendor or from my trainer. I have lost the goggles on rolls twice on two of my rogues now and the bracers once. So no that item set is not a reliable source of aggro reduction.

Accelerando

03-23-2009, 08:12 AM

Yes, yes. Perhaps when I put 'Rogue DPS is either spectacular or negligible' and you replied with that huge rant of yours you might have given it a little more thought? So actually what you're trying to say is 'sorry you were right, Rogue DPS can be negligible in situations, hence the reason why I personally devoted nearly 40% of my levels to a different class.'

Seriously - I have absolutely no idea why you got involved in this thread...

Seriously I have absolutely no idea why you got involved in my conversation in this thread. Especially when you continue to claim how inferior even a pure str based rogue's DPS is, or a Tempest Rogue, yet you refuse to answer a simple question.

11 damage per MAIN HAND swing is negligible if it is situational and non-sustainable. Please name me one high level quest where not only are mob's not able to be SA but are also immune to WoP/Vorpal/Smiting/Disruption/and Banishing. At the same time there are short enough distances between shrines so that the Kensai can be constantly in Power Surge and Haste Boost.

Show me where this amazing Kensai PS advantage is so usefull? Maybe all the mobs in mod 9 will have heavy fort, and deathward, and be immune to WoP, and there will be shrines that pop up every 4 minutes so that you can reset your PS boosts. When that happens, then we can talk.

Accelerando

03-23-2009, 10:45 AM

Um, If all mobs in mod 9 have Heavy Fort, DW, etc. it's your build that'll be the gimp, mine doesn't rely on W/P, Vorpal or SA damage.

ROFL. That is the point. You really aren't too quick on the uptake are you?

Until then you have to show me the quests in the game we are currently playing for the foreseeable future where mobs are immune to not only SA but also Vorpal, WoP, Banishing, and Disruption to make your "amazing fighter kensai dps" mean something in comparison to a str based rogues.

I posit that in the majority of quests that anyone gives a **** about at the current level cap, a rogue is either getting backstab, or DPS doesn't mean jack. Show me I am wrong.

Cold_Stele

03-23-2009, 11:00 AM

ROFL. That is the point. You really aren't too quick on the uptake are you?

I think you might find you totally failed to address my point and (lacking the intellectual capacity to do much else) threw in an insult at the end.

Good skills.

Until then you have to show me the quests in the game we are currently playing for the foreseeable future where mobs are immune to not only SA but also Vorpal, WoP, Banishing, and Disruption to make your "amazing fighter kensai dps" mean something in comparison to a str based rogues.

I posit that in the majority of quests that anyone gives a **** about at the current level cap, a rogue is either getting backstab, or DPS doesn't mean jack. Show me I am wrong.

OK, let me see... a quest at end game that we run a lot where DPS matters but SA isn't reliable.

I seem to remember one yeh... first you have to hit a bunch of portals, then there's these mobs you have to DPS but they're either immune to crits or you're fighting them on your own in the NW/NE corner... then you have to do a puzzle (now your guy will really shine there, what with the locks and all)... then you fight this great big red guy a couple of times and he's resistant to crits and SA.

That one ring any bells with you?

Oh - still waiting for this superior AC break down - why don't you try and prove you're not all hot air, hmmm?

Accelerando

03-23-2009, 11:26 AM

I think you might find you totally failed to address my point and (lacking the intellectual capacity to do much else) threw in an insult at the end.

Good skills.

What point. My point was that you can't claim significantly better DPS unless you can find me a quest where DPS is worthwhile on SA immune mobs who can't be killed by other weapons effects. Then I said that maybe every mob in mod 9 will have heavy fort, death ward, etc, then we can talk.

Then for some reason you decided that I thought every mob having heavy fort deathward etc was good for my rogue but bad for your fighter???? :rolleyes:

OK, let me see... a quest at end game that we run a lot where DPS matters but SA isn't reliable.

I seem to remember one yeh... first you have to hit a bunch of portals, then there's these mobs you have to DPS but they're either immune to crits or you're fighting them on your own in the NW/NE corner... then you have to do a puzzle (now your guy will really shine there, what with the locks and all)... then you fight this great big red guy a couple of times and he's resistant to crits and SA.

That one ring any bells with you?

HAHAHAHA. You are going to claim the Shroud is that quest. You really are making yourself look foolish.

First lets talk about portals. With the whole party beating on them does that 11 damage per main hand swing really REALLY matter? Oh please tell me it does so i can start yelling at the mage who is just standing around to start hitting the portals. Please if you really need to save the 30 extra seconds it might take in part 1 to make up that damage you need to look at your life priorities.

Hm part 2. Immune to crits huh? Oh you mean the elementals! Simple solution, let the caster nuke them while I beat the hell of out the other 6 possible mobs in there all of whom are succeptable to SA. That was a hard one.

Part 4 + 5. On normal Harry has ~ 50% fortification. That comes down to 5d6+9 SA damage on about every other swing without any gear. Yeah that is negligible damage. God you are a laugh riot.

As for the AC, what makes you think I am going to give you my build? I am not one of those people who get their egos stroked by posting their theoretical characters on a message board and getting kudos for their uber builds. I prefer to keep my builds to myself and my guild. If you really want to know how I get a much better AC than a fighter I am sure you can figure it out for yourself. It really isn't that difficult.

Accelerando

03-23-2009, 12:00 PM

ROFL

Post some numbers or S*T*F*U loser. You're nothing but p*ss and wind - put some facts behind that big, fat mouth of yours.

Oh, my Rogue can actually bypass Harry's fortification, he also shoots laser beams out of his eyes - I'd tell you how but 'I am not one of those people who get their egos stroked by posting their theoretical characters on a message board and getting kudos for their uber builds. I prefer to keep my builds to myself and my guild.'

Oh and as for Shroud - my whole point about SA was that it was either 'spectacular or non-existent'. So where was i wrong exactly? Yeh thought not...

/Epic fail.

I think you are the least capable person I have ever attempted to have a reasonable debate with.

Yes my Rogue can bypass Harry's fortification half of the time, because his fortification is only around 50%.

My mouth may be big and fat, and I may be a loser who doesn't post numbers, but I guarantee my Rogue is still a more effective character than your fighters. Get as upset about it as you want but that utility is not going anywhere.

No you had no point about SA, you stated that Rogue DPS was "spectacular or negligible" which i disproved. Now you want to pull some double think and change
that to SA thats ok we can deal with that also.

Why don't you call me some more names, and then still fail to come up with a quest where DPS really matters yet the mobs are SA immune.

Edit: Did you type that while dual wielding KFC drumsticks? It sure looks that way.

Cold_Stele

03-23-2009, 12:08 PM

Yes my Rogue can bypass Harry's fortification half of the time, because his fortification is only around 50%

No you had no point about SA, you stated that Rogue DPS was "spectacular or negligible" which i disproved. Now you want to pull some double think and change
that to SA thats ok we can deal with that also.

So let me get this straight...

Getting SA 50% of the time isn't 'spectacular or negligible damage' DPS from SA?

Half wit.

You can't help being stupid, but there's still chance to prove you've got some integrity - let's see you post your AC.

Accelerando

03-23-2009, 12:11 PM

So let me get this straight...

Getting SA 50% of the time isn't 'spectacular or negligible damage' DPS from SA?

Half wit.

You can't help being stupid, but there's still chance to prove you've got some integrity - let's see you post your AC.

:rolleyes:

Someone needs to read 1984, or at least Green Eggs and Ham.

Gunga

03-23-2009, 12:14 PM

I think you are the least capable person I have ever attempted to have a reasonable debate with.

I doubt that.

Accelerando

03-23-2009, 12:20 PM

I doubt that.

I may have exaggerated a little. He does make the top 10 at least.

Cold_Stele

03-23-2009, 12:36 PM

Accelerando

03-23-2009, 12:43 PM

So are you going to prove you're not full of it?

Though not...

What is there really to prove? Like its difficult to get a much higher AC than a fighter on a character taking ranger rogue and monk levels?

zzzzzzzz

Cold_Stele

03-23-2009, 12:50 PM

What is there really to prove? Like its difficult to get a much higher AC than a fighter on a character taking ranger rogue and monk levels?

zzzzzzzz

LOL so you have Monk levels now?

How many Rogue levels do you even have?

Still waiting for the numbers...

The_Phenx

03-23-2009, 12:54 PM

Actually I was talking about the fighter's relatively low AC and general lack of aggro reduction. This causes the fighter to be taking more damage and w/o dedicated healing to be in battle for less time, as some time would be spent kiting and drinking pots, wand whipping (if even possible for the character) etc. During this time a rogue's negligible (lol) DPS will be pulling aggro as the fighter is running around trying not to die and doing little to no damage at all. ;)

I was going to stay out of this thread... but...

Really? I mean seriously?

My 16 lvl fighter sits at beholder ac or 48 dual weilding in dps mode or a 60 in defense mode with high DR. Has 460 hp, can self heal (not wand whip scroll heal or chug pots) with potencied FULL heals...

Aggro reduction? Its called killing the mob...

So other than evasion, which can be negated with good gear, I dont see what I am missing...

Accelerando

03-23-2009, 01:29 PM

I really don't have to give you jack but i am a bit bored so I will post the WF, who is not totally geared out atm.

10 base
8 dex
9 dt docent
2 dodge cg
3 dodge chattering
5 wiz
1 dodge feat
1 alchemical ritual DT
2 shield Tempest
5 ce
5 prot
4 insight
1 +2 wiz exceptional
______________________________
56 AC Standing

Grab a +3 tome on dex and wiz and I am sitting at a 58
unbuffed AC.

Grap my vorp kamas and drop into centered Wind Stance at 59

Self Buffed

3 Barkskin
1 Haste Pot
(Again we are skipping the shield bonus)
_______________________________
63 AC

Full Raid Buffs
2 Barkskin
2 Recitation
4 Bardsong
5 Pally
_______________________________
76 AC

While this isn't uber it is certainly better than a TWF fighter, and serviceable for a character with excellent aggro management. In fact i think the ac this guy is talking about

I was going to stay out of this thread... but...

My 16 lvl fighter sits at beholder ac or 48 dual weilding in dps mode or a 60 in defense mode with high DR. Has 460 hp, can self heal (not wand whip scroll heal or chug pots) with potencied FULL heals...

Aggro reduction? Its called killing the mob...

So other than evasion, which can be negated with good gear, I dont see what I am missing...

Is the funny one because even with a tower shield and levicks bonuses he still only beats my fully buffed as by what 7? While my TWF mode has you by 15 AC standing. Yes your aggro reduction via killing the mob I am sure is spectacular with S&B. :rolleyes:

I would show you the dwarf but... :)

Cold_Stele

03-23-2009, 01:56 PM

Wow, kind of interesting that you pulled out a Monk level when you were pushed for your AC. Gratz on getting the 24 larges for the +4 Insight over the past two days also... :rolleyes:

Here is the kicker, I have been out of game for 7 months and neither of these characters are even using greensteel.

So let me get this straight, when you said this -

Considering the HP of mobs and the much higher AC of a well built tempest rogue (i.e. the ability to stay in full time combat w/o a dedicated healer) the difference in practice (not hypothetical number crunching) is next to negligable.

What you meant was 'a well built Monk splash build'? Well, no one's going to argue with that.

Let's just be certain though - you're now a Monk/Ranger/Rogue who didn't have Greensteel two days ago but now does - anything else you're going to change?

minivanman

03-23-2009, 02:08 PM

Wow, kind of interesting that you pulled out a Monk level when you were pushed for your AC. Gratz on getting the 24 larges for the +4 Insight over the past two days also... :rolleyes:

So let me get this straight, when you said this -

What you meant was 'a well built Monk splash build'? Well, no one's going to argue with that.

Let's just be certain though - you're now a Monk/Ranger/Rogue who didn't have Greensteel two days ago but now does - anything else you're going to change?

/Inzo orders a dozen Dirty Kobolds and has them waiting for Stele in the Phoenix.

Gonna need to get Stele drunk tonight.

Accelerando

03-23-2009, 02:17 PM

Wow, kind of interesting that you pulled out a Monk level when you were pushed for your AC. Gratz on getting the 24 larges for the +4 Insight over the past two days also... :rolleyes:

So let me get this straight, when you said this -

What you meant was 'a well built Monk splash build'? Well, no one's going to argue with that.

Let's just be certain though - you're now a Monk/Ranger/Rogue who didn't have Greensteel two days ago but now does - anything else you're going to change?

:rolleyes:

What do you want screenshots of my bag now?

Accelerando

03-23-2009, 02:20 PM

Wow, kind of interesting that you pulled out a Monk level when you were pushed for your AC. Gratz on getting the 24 larges for the +4 Insight over the past two days also... :rolleyes:

Let's just be certain though - you're now a Monk/Ranger/Rogue who didn't have Greensteel two days ago but now does - anything else you're going to change?

Um dude like anyone in their right mind would plan out a 14 rog 6 ranger. Of course there is a monk splash in there.

The_Phenx

03-23-2009, 03:45 PM

I really don't have to give you jack but i am a bit bored so I will post the WF, who is not totally geared out atm.

10 base
8 dex
9 dt docent
2 dodge cg
3 dodge chattering
5 wiz
1 dodge feat
1 alchemical ritual DT
2 shield Tempest
5 ce
5 prot
4 insight
1 +2 wiz exceptional
______________________________
56 AC Standing

Grab a +3 tome on dex and wiz and I am sitting at a 58
unbuffed AC.

Grap my vorp kamas and drop into centered Wind Stance at 59

Self Buffed

3 Barkskin
1 Haste Pot
(Again we are skipping the shield bonus)
_______________________________
63 AC

Full Raid Buffs
2 Barkskin
2 Recitation
4 Bardsong
5 Pally
_______________________________
76 AC

While this isn't uber it is certainly better than a TWF fighter, and serviceable for a character with excellent aggro management. In fact i think the ac this guy is talking about

Is the funny one because even with a tower shield and levicks bonuses he still only beats my fully buffed as by what 7? While my TWF mode has you by 15 AC standing. Yes your aggro reduction via killing the mob I am sure is spectacular with S&B. :rolleyes:

I would show you the dwarf but... :)

Right ok so to boil it down what I am looking at is a dex based monk/ranger hybrid. You use CE and twin vorpal Kamas. Or leme guess... wounding kamas.

This is not and has never been DPS. Too many builds in this game focus on stat damaging and vorpal luck. Then wonder why they cant drop bosses.

There are 2 ways to kill mobs.

#1 make yourself unhittible and wound them to death, or hope for a 20...
#2 do nasty damage and drop them where they stand

Theres only 1 way to kill red names... DPS... lots of shiny DPS.

My build does both...

To directly answer your question... I don't want to reduce aggro or manage aggroits not my job... my job is to get and hold aggro so rouges can sneak attack, and others cant get on the backside. The shield is only for turtling up so I dont take damage while Keeping certain mobs away.

All that while being self sufficient. I can stay in the fight without a dedicated healer... its called DRAGONMARKS...and fighters get enough feats to use them without gimping themselves.

Accelerando

03-23-2009, 03:50 PM

Right ok so to boil it down what I am looking at is a dex based monk/ranger hybrid. You use CE and twin vorpal Kamas. Or leme guess... wounding kamas.

This is not and has never been DPS. Too many builds in this game focus on stat damaging and vorpal luck. Then wonder why they cant drop bosses.

There are 2 ways to kill mobs.

#1 make yourself unhittible and wound them to death, or hope for a 20...
#2 do nasty damage and drop them where they stand

Theres only 1 way to kill red names... DPS... lots of shiny DPS.

My build does both...

To directly answer your question... I don't want to reduce aggro its not my job... my job is to get and hold aggro so rouges can sneak attack, and others cant get on the backside. The shield is only for turtling up so I dont take damage while Keeping certain mobs away.

All that while being self sufficient.

I use Khopesh. lol

The_Phenx

03-23-2009, 04:02 PM

I use Khopesh. lol

Even so... your still a dex based toon with no focus's no specalizations, and no power attack, When using Kopeshs your uncentered, and you loose your air bonus...so you get the tempest speed boost... which will be negated by the 20th fighter enhancement.

So you have a higher ac... but do much less damage...my fighter isnt out of combat because he doesnt have a dedicated healer... if he gets low I top myself off...I just dont see the advantage.

But then again...How would you know.. there just arent that many 16th level dragonmarked halfling fighters out there.

The_Phenx

03-23-2009, 04:05 PM

I use Khopesh. lol

Grap my vorp kamas and drop into centered Wind Stance at 59

:rolleyes:

Cold_Stele

03-23-2009, 04:10 PM

Um dude like anyone in their right mind would plan out a 14 rog 6 ranger. Of course there is a monk splash in there.

Well your Dwarf went with even Rog levels, maybe you'd do the same for your WF? Killerlund's 8Rog/6Rgr/2Ftr isn't he?

I would show you the dwarf but... :)

By all means, please do - there's no sudden appearance of a Monk level going to help you out this time.

Just curious what's the name of your WF btw? I mean you've got your Halfling 16 Rog Cached and Halfling 6 Rog Serrurier. **** that's a lot of Rogues. The WF doesn't seem to have been around so long though, so what's this one called?

Cold_Stele

03-23-2009, 04:12 PM

...

Accelerando

03-23-2009, 05:10 PM

:rolleyes:

Yea when vorpals are needed why not use kamas?

Accelerando

03-23-2009, 05:29 PM

Well your Dwarf went with even Rog levels, maybe you'd do the same for your WF? Killerlund's 8Rog/6Rgr/2Ftr isn't he?

By all means, please do - there's no sudden appearance of a Monk level going to help you out this time.

Just curious what's the name of your WF btw? I mean you've got your Halfling 16 Rog Cached and Halfling 6 Rog Serrurier. **** that's a lot of Rogues. The WF doesn't seem to have been around so long though, so what's this one called?

First of all where are you getting my character names from? Do you want them all I'd be glad to supply them myself if you would ask me but to ninja them somehow and start posting them on the forums is not appreciated.

Also the reason I am not showing you the dwarf is that he is being rerolled. He was made right after tempest was released, and while I like him I would like to remake him to tweak certain stats and skills.

Anyway now I feel you are getting a little bit personal, and you certainly seem to feel cool and powerful about yourself. You still have yet to show me where my character is useless DPS in a quest. Turn it around all you want and start talking about my other characters.

Why don't you talk about my Pally/Fighter who is set up to be kensai since you know so much somehow about my account.

Why don't you talk about my Dwarven Pally, since we are such good friends and you seem to have intimate knowledge of my characters.

You are a ******* creep to be honest. And yea what you pulled here was cute, but really it was a petty attempt at vengeance since you got your *** pounded all day long by logic and clearly explained accurate points of view.

So Mr. Cold Stele, can we finish where we started?

For the last time, what is the quest, where mobs are immune to SA, and also immune to WOPs/Vorpals/etc, and where the shrines are close enough that your fighter Kensai PS is going constantly to keep the damage ahead of my Tempest Rogue to enough of an extent that his damage becomes "negligable"

neg⋅li⋅gi⋅ble
–adjective
so small, trifling, or unimportant that it may safely be neglected or disregarded: The extra expenses were negligible.

BTW. I also have a 16 Drow Sorc. His name is Accelerando. And A 15 Drow Sorc. her name is Grimnebulin. Oh also don't forget my 16 bard. His name is Lovemeii.
Feel free to come visit on Ghallanda anytime, and I can tell you exactly what you can do with your smarmy attitude. In person.

Accelerando

03-23-2009, 05:35 PM

Even so... your still a dex based toon with no focus's no specalizations, and no power attack, When using Kopeshs your uncentered, and you loose your air bonus...so you get the tempest speed boost... which will be negated by the 20th fighter enhancement.

So you have a higher ac... but do much less damage...my fighter isnt out of combat because he doesnt have a dedicated healer... if he gets low I top myself off...I just dont see the advantage.

But then again...How would you know.. there just arent that many 16th level dragonmarked halfling fighters out there.

Just as there just aren't that many quests where the situation you are mentioning above is even true. Trust me dude SA is prevalent, I do have power attack, and the character is rocking a 32 str at 16. Is that dex based? I don't think so.

Yes I have a higher ac, and do much more damage MOST OF THE TIME, except against undead, elementals, constructs, zzzzzz we are really spending most of our time fighting those guys aren't we?

Cold_Stele

03-23-2009, 05:56 PM

Accelerando

03-23-2009, 06:13 PM

Personal? It's toon names, what's your problem?

So what is the WF name btw? Something to hide?

And no, you didn't prove anything about Rogue DPS - if it was reliable, you wouldn't throw 4d6 per swing away by taking 50% of your levels in different classes.

My problem is it is at MY discretion to post my character names here on the forums not yours. I post the name of my main and my guild that is enough.

You start dredging up character names from god knows where and posting them here. Well that is personal.

Something to hide? FU Its none of your business what my character names are. How did you get that information? You certainly aren't in my guild and I certainly haven't advertised my lvl 6 character, and you don't know me at all. So where did that information come from?

And for the love of god just shut up about Rogue DPS. You obviously know nothing, and are unable to complete a convincing and consistent argument as to why you think it worthless (you are pretty much alone in that supposition), unable to simply provide one quest where DPS is relevant yet Rogue dps is irrelevant (because there is not one), and unable to have a discussion without tossing about insults and dredging up personal information.

I'm just going to stop here because anything else you have to say in this manner is worthless, you are not much more than an angry and barely informed troll.

Cold_Stele

03-23-2009, 06:55 PM

Lawrence_V._Sullivan

03-23-2009, 07:07 PM

i feel as though i just wasted half my life reading all this ****, and all i came up with was........i hate you all DIE!!

that is all

but really, full fighters suck.

The_Phenx

03-23-2009, 07:42 PM

Just as there just aren't that many quests where the situation you are mentioning above is even true. Trust me dude SA is prevalent, I do have power attack, and the character is rocking a 32 str at 16. Is that dex based? I don't think so.

Yes I have a higher ac, and do much more damage MOST OF THE TIME, except against undead, elementals, constructs, zzzzzz we are really spending most of our time fighting those guys aren't we?

Ok you gotta compare apples to apples... your standing twf ac as quoted was with CE on... and how are you getting 9Ac out of the dragontouched docent...they give 6 base... which means the other +3 is coming from?

THe 1 +2 wiz exceptional? shroud weapon? so killed your dps on a kopesh for +1 ac? and the other has +4 insight?

Then you say you do a lot of damage because you use kopeshs and power attack.

You can't have it both ways. SO your really at maybe a 51 ac in twf dps stance???

To say fighters have horrible ac and dont do damage is blanket silly

This was the only reason I posted, and the only point I have to make.

There are VERY valid fighter builds out there...

Mike_Fun_Spot

03-23-2009, 07:48 PM

What is dps? What is this ac you speak of? I am confused, all i know is that i get five armies per turn for owning North America! I am on a risk strike till mod 9 ahahahahhaha

Accelerando

03-24-2009, 12:35 AM

At no point have I said SA is worthless - that's what you want to think so you can argue. My comment on SA was that it was spectacular or negligible.

But moving on, not going to tell the WF name eh? Interesting. I had this PM saying that you would refuse to name him, wonder why that is?

You really can't remember what you typed in your own post can you?

Nah, I'm going with Bandy on this one, mod 8 Barb>mod 8 Ftr, regardless of Haste Boosts.

From actually playing ALL of the builds we're discussing (except Ftr/Rgr) Rgr>Barb>Ftr>Pally>Rog.

Rogue gets last place as DPS is either spectacular or negligable.

Here you clearly stated that Rogue DPS not SA DPS is either spectacular or negligable, a statement which is flat out wrong. I have asked you repeatedly to provide me with a quest where this is the case, but you haven't been able to. So you turn in into some personal quest to find my characters?

Beat it troll. GTFO.

Accelerando

03-24-2009, 12:36 AM

THe 1 +2 wiz exceptional? shroud weapon? so killed your dps on a kopesh for +1 ac? and the other has +4 insight?

Then you say you do a lot of damage because you use kopeshs and power attack.

You can't have it both ways. SO your really at maybe a 51 ac in twf dps stance???

To say fighters have horrible ac and dont do damage is blanket silly

This was the only reason I posted, and the only point I have to make.

There are VERY valid fighter builds out there...

OH NOES! NOT ACID BLAST! lol

EDIT: Ok that above is a bit snarky and doesn't do much to add to the debate here.

Ok... well maybe I should have broken down the AC from the DT docent as such

7 DT Docent
2 Composite Plating

But Yes the total bonus is +9. Don't you have one of these?

And no I didn't say that fighters have horrible AC, just that a properly specced rogue has a higher AC on average than a fighter, and most likely significantly higher
if that fighter insists on staying pure for the capstone and PrEs. That is saying that both characters are TWF, DPS minded offensive characters.

Also no one is saying that fighters are worthless in any way. I have a fighter pally that I enjoy very much and will enjoy even more when the cap goes up and I can see some of the benefits of Kensai PS combined with ES and DS.

At the same time, back to what we find as the max difference (on the Str Based Tempest Rog vs Pure Fighter) 11 per main hand swing, which drops down to 1 damage per main hand swing when the fighter is not in PS and the Tempest Rog is facing a favored enemy. This is w/o SA. If that favored enemy is double dipped (i.e. Lawful Evil Outsider) the rog is actually leading by 5 main hand damage, W/O SA. Just digest that for a bit and get back to me.

Cold_Stele

03-24-2009, 01:03 AM

You really can't remember what you typed in your own post can you?

Here you clearly stated that Rogue DPS not SA DPS is either spectacular or negligable, a statement which is flat out wrong. I have asked you repeatedly to provide me with a quest where this is the case, but you haven't been able to. So you turn in into some personal quest to find my characters?

Beat it troll. GTFO.

You know perfectly well I was talking about SA damage - we went back and forth on this enough times - why else would I say 'spectacular or negligible'.

*edit* the real joke is that you'd try to make my Rgr>Barb>Ftr>Pally>Rog statement about you (as everything's about you right?). Ranger comes #1 on my list - but almost half your levels are Ranger ones!

So... are the PM's I got true? That it's not possible for you to give the name of this WF Monk Tempest you quoted? :rolleyes:

Accelerando

03-24-2009, 04:11 AM

So... are the PM's I got true? That it's not possible for you to give the name of this WF Monk Tempest you quoted? :rolleyes:

Oh so now you are telling me I made up the character? I didn't, but who cares if I did. 90% of the bs that is discussed in the class forums is theoretical builds.
Why do I all of a sudden have to put my real in game character up against a purely theoretical lvl 20 perfectly specced tomed and geared out kensai when the cap at this moment is 16. lol.

You know perfectly well I was talking about SA damage - we went back and forth on this enough times - why else would I say 'spectacular or negligible'.

How would I know you were talking about SA damage when you specifically stated Rogue DPS? SA damage is only part of a rogues DPS.
Oh no I get it, you are most likely one of those people who think rogues are only halfling finesse backstabbers, well maybe if you want to generalize the class your original supposition would be correct.

statement about you (as everything's about you right?). Ranger comes #1 on my list - but almost half your levels are Ranger ones!

Yes at 16 6 of my levels are ranger and we all know that 37.5% is very close to 50%. Go go number cruncher! I can now take your DPS calculations VERY SERIOUSLY. :rolleyes:

Oh and just for giggles.http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/9608/gtfotroll.jpg

Cold_Stele

03-24-2009, 05:33 AM

Oh so now you are telling me I made up the character? I didn't, but who cares if I did. 90% of the bs that is discussed in the class forums is theoretical builds.
Why do I all of a sudden have to put my real in game character up against a purely theoretical lvl 20 perfectly specced tomed and geared out kensai when the cap at this moment is 16. lol.

At least we can rely on you to be consistently dishonest - you were never asked to post your build for comparison to a 20 Kensai, you were asked to post your AC breakdown compared to a 16 Ftr after you made this comment -

Considering the HP of mobs and the much higher AC of a well built tempest rogue (i.e. the ability to stay in full time combat w/o a dedicated healer) the difference in practice (not hypothetical number crunching) is next to negligable.

So how did you reply?

You posted someone else's build.

Priceless.

Accelerando

03-24-2009, 05:41 AM

At least we can rely on you to be consistently dishonest - you were never asked to post your build for comparison to a 20 Kensai, you were asked to post your AC breakdown compared to a 16 Ftr after you made this comment -

So how did you reply?

You posted someone else's build.

Priceless.

LOL. I am done with you. Ask anyone in my guild if I have this char or not, or don't. I could care less. Your ideas are totally worthless, and there is no longer any merit in me being able to see your posts.

Later!

CSFurious

03-24-2009, 05:43 AM

statements like this make you lose a lot of credibility

but, i thank you for making me laugh out loud and also alleviating the general boredom i currently feel for this game

SA damage is only part of a rogues DPS.

Accelerando

03-24-2009, 05:51 AM

statements like this make you lose a lot of credibility

but, i thank you for making me laugh out loud and also alleviating the general boredom i currently feel for this game

Ok so a rogue does no other damage at all whatsoever if they are not sneak attacking. LOL nice, way to stereotype. Here is some real informatin for you.
A 32 Str Char Dual Wielding Khopeshes With Power Attack Is Not 0 DPS. Foolish.
A 18 Str Char Dual Wielding Rapiers Without Power Attack Is Still Not 0 DPS. (although it might as well be)

SA Damage is only part of the overall damage from a rogue, just like GWS Damage is only part of a Fighter's overall damage. Add all that overall damage together, and that is where you get your DPS from, not just one segment of it.

Who is lacking credibility?

Who are you Cold Stele's sockpuppet?

CSFurious

03-24-2009, 06:06 AM

Accelerando

03-24-2009, 06:22 AM

i agree that str-based rogue is the way to go but i do not think that losing 5d6+whatever? sneak attack damage is good

although i would think that your build likely draws aggro away from almost anyone in the party so you are constantly losing the sneak attack damage anyway

i guess it is the price to pay as the game has evolved from finesse to str

i personally play a pure str-based ranger with 32-str & the maxed-out favored enemies that you never lose dps on

i will have to re-roll my gimpy finesse rogue to try this type of build out

you convinced me

Next mod i really think your pure str based ranger will be at the top, but I think this might depend more on quest layout than anything else. If there are long open areas the ranged alacrity capstone will allow your ranger to do simply massive damage to mobs long before they reach the group, then jump in and TWF and tear a mofo up.

It is true that the build I am talking about is a huge aggro magnet, which is why I am constantly spamming diplo, and am even thinking about swapping in improved feint. I never want to loose SA but it happens sometimes, especially when partying with non intimi tanks. ( I wish I saw intimidate more in pugs, especially when there is a s&b char in the party). At that point i just keep fighting, confident that I am still doing good damage, hitting Diplo as soon as the timer pops, and will sometimes even switch to lower DPS weapons so the other melee types can grab the aggro back.

Anyway I still have a finesse hin rogue, pure, and 28 point to boot. I keep him for nostalgia and fun factor, plus I want to see what assassin III does. :)

Cold_Stele

03-24-2009, 08:15 AM

Hadrian

03-24-2009, 08:47 AM

i guess it is the price to pay as the game has evolved from finesse to str

Is that really true? My perception sees it the other way around. The more other damage boosts we get, the less the importance of that base STR investment. As AC requirements and reflex saves get higher and higher (especially elite level traps), more dex gives a higher benefit than it used to.

Consider two rangers. One a finesse build that started as a halfling with 12 strength, and the other a human with 18 starting strength +4 levels.

That's a difference of 5 damage per hit to begin.

Now factor in +14 favored enemy +5 weapon + weapon effect damage + ram's might + rage spell + madstone boots + halfling backstab damage + the strength bonus left over (difference between the builds is +5 or possibly 6 with human str enhancement, but count the remaining str bonus). Buffs like bard song and prayer have always been there, but bard songs have become stronger than they were originally.

Of course, the strength build will be using more damaging weapons, but the point is that as the various damage bonuses increase, the percentage gap between a finesse and strength build decreases.

CSFurious

03-24-2009, 10:00 AM

i like elves & halflings because they can be dexterous & strong

you can get an elf or half ranger up to 32 str & 30 dex without a lot of difficulty

a str-based elven ranger dual-wielding longswords/rapiers is pretty good at dps

same applies for a half using khopeshes

i prefer balanced stats instead of having a 36 dex & 20 str like a finesse build does & i also like using str-based weapons

i also have never gotten real excited over ac

Is that really true? My perception sees it the other way around. The more other damage boosts we get, the less the importance of that base STR investment. As AC requirements and reflex saves get higher and higher (especially elite level traps), more dex gives a higher benefit than it used to.

Consider two rangers. One a finesse build that started as a halfling with 12 strength, and the other a human with 18 starting strength +4 levels.

That's a difference of 5 damage per hit to begin.

Now factor in +14 favored enemy +5 weapon + weapon effect damage + ram's might + rage spell + madstone boots + halfling backstab damage + the strength bonus left over (difference between the builds is +5 or possibly 6 with human str enhancement, but count the remaining str bonus). Buffs like bard song and prayer have always been there, but bard songs have become stronger than they were originally.

Of course, the strength build will be using more damaging weapons, but the point is that as the various damage bonuses increase, the percentage gap between a finesse and strength build decreases.

Accelerando

03-24-2009, 11:20 AM

Aaxeyu

03-24-2009, 12:27 PM

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=174906

Str based WF Rogue - comes 46th out of 47 DPS builds without SA damage. The only build it beat was Halfling 18 Cleric/2 Monk.

Haste boosted, with SA damage, comes 3rd out of 47 DPS builds sampled.

Is that 'spectacular or negligible' enough for you?

His mind is set, don't confuse him with facts..

He won't ever realise just how wrong he is. It's a waste of time, but I gotta say that it's amusing to read :)

The_Phenx

03-24-2009, 12:51 PM

7 DT Docent
2 Composite Plating
But Yes the total bonus is +9. Don't you have one of these?

The docent is +6 I thought..

No I play a halfling with dragonmarks so i can self heal and recieve the extra ac and to hit bonus & saves. Without being pure fighter there is no way to get enough feats to fit in the dragonmarks all the twf chain power attack and weapon specs.

OH NOES! NOT ACID BLAST! lol

On a crit fighter... and even better later with Kensai and extra 4d6 per crit and 8d6 on a 20 is nothing to shake a stick at... considering thats 15% of the time now and 20% later.

And no I didn't say that fighters have horrible AC, just that a properly specced rogue has a higher AC on average than a fighter, and most likely significantly higher
if that fighter insists on staying pure for the capstone and PrEs. That is saying that both characters are TWF, DPS minded offensive characters.

No but you are listing your ac in a defensive stance while stating your using power attack to liven up your damage...If your going to make an argument make it at least possible.

Your Ac is only slightly higher in a dps oriented stance ...You also say your not geared out...Chattering ring.. Dt docentw/alchemical ritiual...Prot 5....Chaosgardes...I fail to see what gear your missing? If I rearranged all my gear to accomodate the same things your wearing I would be only 1 or two points behind. But I would be limiting the dps output of my toon. I have gone for a dual mode balancing act, and it works fantastically. Yes my Monkrobat can hit a 78...and my fighter can hit a 72...so we see a slight difference...but its not nearly as drastic as you make it sound.

At the same time, back to what we find as the max difference (on the Str Based Tempest Rog vs Pure Fighter) 11 per main hand swing, which drops down to 1 damage per main hand swing when the fighter is not in PS and the Tempest Rog is facing a favored enemy. This is w/o SA. If that favored enemy is double dipped (i.e. Lawful Evil Outsider) the rog is actually leading by 5 main hand damage, W/O SA. Just digest that for a bit and get back to me.

Shure...and pure fighters get a 30% alacrity boost to use... and once the kensai bonuses happen all those differences are going to shift...

Shrug play who you want to play but dont bash someone because your bored. And if you do at least get your facts strait. Don't skew the #'rs to make things sound different then they are, because that doesn't help anyone and just makes you look like a troll.

Accelerando

03-24-2009, 01:44 PM

His mind is set, don't confuse him with facts..

He won't ever realise just how wrong he is. It's a waste of time, but I gotta say that it's amusing to read :)

Hey that is neat that I can see his post inside yours.

Wait i was under the impression that we were talking about a WF Str based Tempest Rogue with Monk Splash. Please show me that on your precious DPS chart. :rolleyes:

That chart is purely hypothetical. Calculations like that mean nothing except against certain raid bosses who stand there and let you beat on them while clerics spam mass healing spells. And guess what? Those bosses are in FE and are susceptible to SA. Your hypothetical situation where SA is not available and DPS matters is still not proven to exist.

At the same time you are arguing with me over DPS at PrEs and capstones that aren't even in the game yet, and might never make it to live v.s. abilities that already exist in game and are proven to be effective. Absolute garbage.

edit: was initially a little bit harsh on the dps chart

Accelerando

03-24-2009, 01:59 PM

The docent is +6 I thought..

No I play a halfling with dragonmarks so i can self heal and recieve the extra ac and to hit bonus & saves. Without being pure fighter there is no way to get enough feats to fit in the dragonmarks all the twf chain power attack and weapon specs.
Its a +5 docent with +2 stackable to WF composite plating, Which gives a total armor bonus of +9 to a WF with standard composite plating.

On a crit fighter... and even better later with Kensai and extra 4d6 per crit and 8d6 on a 20 is nothing to shake a stick at... considering thats 15% of the time now and 20% later.

That is all well and good but if the Mob is immune to SA in almost every case it is due to the fact that they are immune to crits as well. Any heavy fortification is going to effect the DPS of the fighter just as much as the Rogue.

No but you are listing your ac in a defensive stance while stating your using power attack to liven up your damage...If your going to make an argument make it at least possible.

I will admit that I did not take that into consideration. You are correct on this point. However this build can achieve a similar AC to the WF defensive mode if the build is halfling and wearing a bit different gear.

Your Ac is only slightly higher in a dps oriented stance ...You also say your not geared out...Chattering ring.. Dt docentw/alchemical ritiual...Prot 5....Chaosgardes...I fail to see what gear your missing? If I rearranged all my gear to accomodate the same things your wearing I would be only 1 or two points behind. But I would be limiting the dps output of my toon. I have gone for a dual mode balancing act, and it works fantastically. Yes my Monkrobat can hit a 78...and my fighter can hit a 72...so we see a slight difference...but its not nearly as drastic as you make it sound.

Ok so in the worst case scenario for the tempest rogue, he is getting 11 less damage but having a maybe 5 higher AC rather than 10. That is a lowball number.
Yes in this rare and hard to find hypothetical situation the fighter has the advantage. By so much DPS that the rogue's dps is "negligible" and he might as well just go sit in the corner? I don't think so.

Also I don't really see how your str based pure fighter can hit a similar ac w/o dumping the off hand weapon and picking up a shield. I would appreciate a breakdown of your AC if you don't mind taking me to school? :D

Shure...and pure fighters get a 30% alacrity boost to use... and once the kensai bonuses happen all those differences are going to shift...

Shrug play who you want to play but dont bash someone because your bored. And if you do at least get your facts strait. Don't skew the #'rs to make things sound different then they are, because that doesn't help anyone and just makes you look like a troll.

Rogues get that same haste boost btw.

And actually I am not bashing anyone because I am bored, I won't however let anyone come on these forums and attempt to pigeonhole rogues back into the trap picker only party spots they were getting 3+ mods ago. They are a DPS class, period, and to put them at the bottom of ranks only shows ignorance of their multiclass potential.

Cold_Stele

03-24-2009, 02:19 PM

How to win arguments the Accelerando way -

1. Never admit your wrong. When proven wrong, change the argument. When proven wrong again, keep changing, just like here (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2109742&postcount=201). OK let's all be clear - we're talking about Rogue DPS and SA, right? Got disproved? No problem - change the argument -

Wait i was under the impression that we were talking about a WF Str based Tempest Rogue with Monk Splash. Please show me that on your precious DPS chart. :rolleyes:

Simple! Getting debunked by math is even easier still - it's not like maths is a science or anything, just call a thread with 2,580 hits a POS, calculations mean nothing right?

2. Make all the wild claims you want, but never, ever back anything up. If you get pressed too hard though just lie, it doesn't matter right?

Oh so now you are telling me I made up the character? I didn't, but who cares if I did. 90% of the bs that is discussed in the class forums is theoretical builds.

Just make anything up you like - one minute you don't have GS the next you do, one minute you're a Tempest Rogue, the next you have a Monk level too. Whatever you do though don't hack off people on one of your own servers' threads in case they start ratting you out with PM's - oops too late for that one...

3. And lastly, speaking of ratting out... if someone's too close for comfort (maybe they're smelling a rat as you're posting a WF AC build that relies on DT Docents introduced 5 months ago when they know you've been on a break for seven months), hell, just rat them out. Those infraction points will buy you a little breathing room.

Awesome job there Cache.

Accelerando

03-24-2009, 02:30 PM

Hey Aaxeyu can you come back again and quote your buddy Cold Stele so I can read his post?

Ok I am a liar I don't really care what he said I just want to watch you two pat each other on the back again for how brilliant you both are. :rolleyes:

Aaxeyu

03-24-2009, 02:46 PM

And actually I am not bashing anyone because I am bored, I won't however let anyone come on these forums and attempt to pigeonhole rogues back into the trap picker only party spots they were getting 3+ mods ago. They are a DPS class, period, and to put them at the bottom of ranks only shows ignorance of their multiclass potential.

Ofcourse rogues is a DPS class.

A rogues DPS is however not very reliable, that is the reason why they are not the most favored DPS build.
Sure, when they get SA on every hit they deal more DPS than any other class, but when they don't have SA they have only the hasteboost to increase their damage.

There is plenty of situations where DPS matters and the mobs have fortification, and then the rogues fall behind in DPS.

You are obviously very diluted and is trying way too hard to defend your build.

The_Phenx

03-24-2009, 02:47 PM

That is all well and good but if the Mob is immune to SA in almost every case it is due to the fact that they are immune to crits as well. Any heavy fortification is going to effect the DPS of the fighter just as much as the Rogue.

Nope. Heavy fort ONLY effects the BASE damage reading and sneak attacks.. all burst/blast damage still comes thru... IE ghost. You will get what 36 for base damage on a crit but you still get (on 3x post shroud weap) 2d6 holy 1d6 good + 4d6 good +4d6 good + 4d6 good on a 20 for example... thats why a 3x pos rapier is one of if not the very best portal beaters out there. This is the same vs constucts elementals etc, becasue its not a critical strike but rahter a component of the weapon that happens on certain die rolls.

I will admit that I did not take that into consideration. You are correct on this point. However this build can achieve a similar AC to the WF defensive mode if the build is halfling and wearing a bit different gear.

My str based Monkrobat (Preying Mantis) totally geared out would sit at a 53 base w/power attack on could be a 54 if he took dodge as a feat.

A dex based rouge/monk would be higher but a lot less sutainable damage...

So comparibly while its higher its not a TON higher.

Ok so in the worst case scenario for the tempest rogue, he is getting 11 less damage but having a maybe 5 higher AC rather than 10. That is a lowball number.
Yes in this rare and hard to find hypothetical situation the fighter has the advantage. By so much DPS that the rogue's dps is "negligible" and he might as well just go sit in the corner? I don't think so.

I never said a thing about rouges dps...rouges rock... I have one... some of the best dps output around is when 2 o 3 rouges gang up on a critter and pass the aggro around. Hell I have tharnes and halfling guile on my fighter for that extra +12 SA damage when applicable.

I said stat damaging and vorpals arent dps, and only count on "trash" mobs

Also I don't really see how your str based pure fighter can hit a similar ac w/o dumping the off hand weapon and picking up a shield. I would appreciate a breakdown of your AC if you don't mind taking me to school? :D

DT Plate w Ritual & Insight
Chattering Ring
Seal of the Earth
Prot 5 item
Halfling bonus
Fighters Armor Mastery III

Things I dont have but could theoretically be added for +4 more
Dodge Feat
Two Weapon Defense
Choasgarde

I spent the feats on dragonmarks since I feel massive self healing is a way better option than +2 ac. And the Chaosgards are unvavailble to me since I went chaotic good for the weapon choices. (shroud made that choice obsolete)

But now you see its possible to have a pure fighter twf with a standing 52 ac with power attack on. Just takes some decent gear, yes its easier on a monk or a rouge but its not the only way to do it.

Rogues get that same haste boost btw.

Only to a certain extent if you multiclass too much. I wanted the 30% boost.

And actually I am not bashing anyone because I am bored, I won't however let anyone come on these forums and attempt to pigeonhole rogues back into the trap picker only party spots they were getting 3+ mods ago. They are a DPS class, period, and to put them at the bottom of ranks only shows ignorance of their multiclass potential.

We have never descriminated against rouges (hugs Switch, Mephit, & Mikuras) People who do are silly. But making an argument and arguing are 2 different things.

Don't pidgeohole fighters in the process... especially end game all tomes and geared out ones like the OP said. They are extremely varied and viable class which is only going to be more silly when the cap goes up.

Accelerando

03-24-2009, 02:51 PM

There is plenty of situations where DPS matters and the mobs have fortification, and then the rogues fall behind in DPS.

Where? No one seems to be able to answer this question.

The_Phenx

03-24-2009, 02:56 PM

Where? No one seems to be able to answer this question.

Shroud & Kobold Elementals... undead like Sorjek/Abbot... to name a couple... str based rouges mitigate this factor nicely tho.

Aaxeyu

03-24-2009, 03:10 PM

Where? No one seems to be able to answer this question.

Yes, it have been answered, you weren't paying attention. To busy comming up with ******** to defend your build I guess.
To name some:
Shroud portals, harry, sally, sorjek, elementals in kob, sos and vod.

Accelerando

03-24-2009, 03:19 PM

Nope. Heavy fort ONLY effects the BASE damage reading and sneak attacks.. all burst/blast damage still comes thru... IE ghost. You will get what 36 for base damage on a crit but you still get (on 3x post shroud weap) 2d6 holy 1d6 good + 4d6 good +4d6 good + 4d6 good on a 20 for example... thats why a 3x pos rapier is one of if not the very best portal beaters out there. This is the same vs constucts elementals etc, becasue its not a critical strike but rahter a component of the weapon that happens on certain die rolls.
Exactly, so mobs which are immune to SA and crits, the extra weapon and str damage on crit is negated. This leaves damage up to the base damage and whatever effects are on the weapon. The base damage is where the higher str PS kensai has the advantage in the rogue with no SA situation. All other things being equal (like weaponry) that advantage isn't so pronounced.

My str based Monkrobat (Preying Mantis) totally geared out would sit at a 53 base w/power attack on could be a 54 if he took dodge as a feat.

A dex based rouge/monk would be higher but a lot less sutainable damage...

So comparibly while its higher its not a TON higher.

Agreed, however is it significantly higher in your opinion? Or meaningless?

I never said a thing about rouges dps...rouges rock... I have one... some of the best dps output around is when 2 o 3 rouges gang up on a critter and pass the aggro around. Hell I have tharnes and halfling guile on my fighter for that extra +12 SA damage when applicable.

I said stat damaging and vorpals arent dps, and only count on "trash" mobs

I never said you did that was some other guy who was posting earlier. I had to squelch him because he couldn't keep the conversation civil and started calling me names and demanding screen shots of my characters when he was unable to prove his point to me. Sad really.

DT Plate w Ritual & Insight 34
Fighters Armor Mastery III
Chattering Ring 37
Seal of the Earth 47
Prot 5 item 42
Halfling bonus 43

Things I dont have but could theoretically be added for +4 more
Dodge Feat
Two Weapon Defense
Choasgarde

I spent the feats on dragonmarks since I feel massive self healing is a way better option than +2 ac. And the Chaosgards are unvavailble to me since I went chaotic good for the weapon choices. (shroud made that choice obsolete)

But now you see its possible to have a pure fighter twf with a standing 52 ac with power attack on. Just takes some decent gear, yes its easier on a monk or a rouge but its not the only way to do it.

I like it. I see that it is possible to hit that ac TWF, although with really heavy slot investment to get there. I mean both rings, bracers, and cloak or neck or DT armor going to +5 prot. All those slots going to ac seems alot, (especially for the seal of earth, just drink pots ;)). If you like grinding i'd be more apt to go for chattering and prot on the armor. Saves you a ring slot.

Only to a certain extent if you multiclass too much. I wanted the 30% boost.

You only need Rogue 10 to get the 30% haste boost.

We have never descriminated against rouges (hugs Switch, Mephit, & Mikuras) People who do are silly. But making an argument and arguing are 2 different things.

Don't pidgeohole fighters in the process... especially end game all tomes and geared out ones like the OP said. They are extremely varied and viable class which is only going to be more silly when the cap goes up.

Hey I'm not attempting to do that, but the unqualified attitude that Kensai is super amazing and rogues are worthless (not coming from you) was something that needed to be stamped out.

Aaxeyu

03-24-2009, 03:23 PM

Hey I'm not attempting to do that, but the unqualified attitude that Kensai is super amazing and rogues are worthless (not coming from you) was something that needed to be stamped out.

Can you show me where anyone even suggested anything like that? please.

The_Phenx

03-24-2009, 03:29 PM

Exactly, so mobs which are immune to SA and crits, the extra weapon and str damage on crit is negated. This leaves damage up to the base damage and whatever effects are on the weapon. The base damage is where the higher str PS kensai has the advantage in the rogue with no SA situation. All other things being equal (like weaponry) that advantage isn't so pronounced.

This was all only in response to your saying that not having blast effect and having ac on shroud weapons was pretty meaningless... I find it quite handy in almost all situations.

I think you said Oh NOES ACID BLAST or something like that.

Agreed, however is it significantly higher in your opinion? Or meaningless?

Dex based significantly higher, str based so close its not really worth arguing over. What 1 or 2 ac tops?

I like it. I see that it is possible to hit that ac TWF, although with really heavy slot investment to get there. I mean both rings, bracers, and cloak or neck or DT armor going to +5 prot. All those slots going to ac seems alot, (especially for the seal of earth, just drink pots ;)). If you like grinding i'd be more apt to go for chattering and prot on the armor. Saves you a ring slot.

Aye of course... theres always 1000 ways to skin cat. Seal I keep on becase #1 I hate buying pots... #2 it cant be dispelled...#3 I get the happy acid resist with it. If I ever NEED a ring slot it will go away. I had debated doing natural on the armor and insight on the weapons which frees up a ring and gives me +1 ac... BUT I loose all blast damage... and I felt it wasnt worth it, all about balance. Yes theres a lot of slots...but built right it doesnt matter...I have several slots that are open to swapping around still... boots, bracers & gloves...

Cold_Stele

03-24-2009, 03:41 PM

I never said you did that was some other guy who was posting earlier. I had to squelch him because he couldn't keep the conversation civil and started calling me names and demanding screen shots of my characters when he was unable to prove his point to me. Sad really.

So you (supposedly) squelch me, report me and then carry on throwing around the insults?

I'm outta here guys - not going to waste my time who can only back up arguments with deceit, and calls in the devs when he's proven wrong.

Lymnus

03-24-2009, 03:49 PM

Where? No one seems to be able to answer this question.

Well, things like constructs and elementals that can't be crit, or can't be sneak attacked. Two places that DPS is the biggest issue probably are the portals in Part 1 of Shroud, and Parts 4 and 5 of Shroud. In both of these examples, SA doesn't go off 100% of the time, so the rogue's DPS isn't going to be too awfully amazing. But, as long as a rogue gets off his/her SAs, she'll do fine.

HeavenlyCloud

03-24-2009, 03:49 PM

So you (supposedly) squelch me, report me and then carry on throwing around the insults?

You're family must love you - is that why they sent you to Singapore? :D

I'm outta here guys - not going to waste my time who can only back up arguments with deceit, and calls in the devs when he's proven wrong.

It doesn't look good when you start bringing real life stuff into the forums.

Indrn_Fretgoop

03-24-2009, 04:07 PM

(3 Fighter / 11 Paladin / 2 Rogue)
Hit Points: 256
Spell Points: 100
Saves
Fortitude: 17
Reflex: 15
Will: 10
Ability score
Abilities Base Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) Level 16
Strength 16 19
Dexterity 12 13 +1 at 1
Constitution 12 12
Intelligence 11 13 + 2 tome at lvl 1
Wisdom 11 11
Charisma 12 12

Feats
Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Skill Focus: Intimidate

Level 2 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Dodge

Level 3 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Combat Expertise

Level 9 (rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons

Level 12 paladin
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Level 16fighter
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack

Ac break down
with +5 mithral breatplate which is common now and +5 mith tower sheild.
Unbuffed
10 Base
5 dex
5 armor
5 enchant bonus
9 shield
2 bulwark
3 dodge chaos guard, feat
2Alchemy ritual
+5 CE
Size +1
+5 protection item

52
Self buffed
+3 barkskin potion
+5 paladin enhacement

60
Raid buffed
+4 bardy
+2 barks from ranger
+2 from real buwarks
+2 recitation
70
with superior grind of chattering
73! sweet.
Shroud
77

Eudimio

03-24-2009, 04:11 PM

Well, things like constructs and elementals that can't be crit, or can't be sneak attacked. Two places that DPS is the biggest issue probably are the portals in Part 1 of Shroud, and Parts 4 and 5 of Shroud. In both of these examples, SA doesn't go off 100% of the time, so the rogue's DPS isn't going to be too awfully amazing. But, as long as a rogue gets off his/her SAs, she'll do fine.

Rogue DPS is definately amazing in parts 4 & 5 of the shroud.

Hadrian

03-25-2009, 03:38 AM

Ofcourse rogues is a DPS class.

A rogues DPS is however not very reliable, that is the reason why they are not the most favored DPS build.
Sure, when they get SA on every hit they deal more DPS than any other class, but when they don't have SA they have only the hasteboost to increase their damage.

My biggest problem with rogues is how squishy they are. They can often do their great potential damage, but if they get aggro they fall over so fast it not... well actually yes it is funny. Also, many things glancing blow and catch them whether or not they have aggro.

Talking about mid 50s AC as if it mitigates that is a few mods out of date. Relative to other melee DPS builds they tend to either have much less HP and DR or much less AC and fort/will saves.

Sure, you can min max out the perfect build with all possible ideal gear on the boards and they will look pretty good. You can do the same for any build, though.

Accelerando

03-25-2009, 04:39 AM

Can you show me where anyone even suggested anything like that? please.

Nah, I'm going with Bandy on this one, mod 8 Barb>mod 8 Ftr, regardless of Haste Boosts.

From actually playing ALL of the builds we're discussing (except Ftr/Rgr) Rgr>Barb>Ftr>Pally>Rog.

Rogue gets last place as DPS is either spectacular or negligable.

This was all only in response to your saying that not having blast effect and having ac on shroud weapons was pretty meaningless... I find it quite handy in almost all situations.

I think you said Oh NOES ACID BLAST or something like that.

I was more alluding to the whole mineral II problem and the next mod. It looks like we are going to see more immunities to acid then before. Trust me if I am wrong I will be moving that insight to my armor and recrafting.

Dex based significantly higher, str based so close its not really worth arguing over. What 1 or 2 ac tops?

More like 5 AC vs 7 main hand damage. 11 AC vs 11 main hand damage if we are considering boosts (Imp Uncanny Dodge vs Kensai PS)

Aye of course... theres always 1000 ways to skin cat. Seal I keep on becase #1 I hate buying pots... #2 it cant be dispelled...#3 I get the happy acid resist with it. If I ever NEED a ring slot it will go away. I had debated doing natural on the armor and insight on the weapons which frees up a ring and gives me +1 ac... BUT I loose all blast damage... and I felt it wasnt worth it, all about balance. Yes theres a lot of slots...but built right it doesnt matter...I have several slots that are open to swapping around still... boots, bracers & gloves...

Well i think every has to deal with some amount of swapping or another. It doesn't seem too excessive in your case.

Well, things like constructs and elementals that can't be crit, or can't be sneak attacked. Two places that DPS is the biggest issue probably are the portals in Part 1 of Shroud, and Parts 4 and 5 of Shroud. In both of these examples, SA doesn't go off 100% of the time, so the rogue's DPS isn't going to be too awfully amazing. But, as long as a rogue gets off his/her SAs, she'll do fine.

Constructs (most) can be smited, Elementals (most) can be WoPed.

Portals? Who cares, so it takes 30 seconds longer to do part 1 because you have a str based rogue in your party instead of a power surged kensai.

Parts 4 & 5 of the shroud? I think I already mentioned how much damage a rogue adds in here, and it is pretty **** nice.

My biggest problem with rogues is how squishy they are. They can often do their great potential damage, but if they get aggro they fall over so fast it not... well actually yes it is funny. Also, many things glancing blow and catch them whether or not they have aggro.

Talking about mid 50s AC as if it mitigates that is a few mods out of date. Relative to other melee DPS builds they tend to either have much less HP and DR or much less AC and fort/will saves.

Sure, you can min max out the perfect build with all possible ideal gear on the boards and they will look pretty good. You can do the same for any build, though.

While I agree with you whole-heartedly about the will saves, I am going to disagree with your ideas on HP. For example my WF right now is sitting at 380 w/o a shroud item, or a gfl item. While certainly not at the HP level of a barb it ends up being pretty nice overall at lvl 20. I have his max HP written down somewhere but I am away from my home computer atm and don't have complete access to the build, nor do I feel like doing new calcs.

Also a possible self buffed 59 AC (64AC with 4.5 mins of imp uncanny dodge) is fairly respectable. Especially with CE off. Turn it on in situations where SA is available and we are talking 64-70 AC w/o raid buffs. Give up a few haste boosts here and there for another +2 ac from showtime (up to 7 mins chained). Well you get the point.

Like I said its not top tier but it is also nothing to sneer at. Definitely not a build that gets ground into the dust by Kensai. :D

Hadrian

03-25-2009, 05:51 AM

While I agree with you whole-heartedly about the will saves, I am going to disagree with your ideas on HP. For example my WF right now is sitting at 380 w/o a shroud item, or a gfl item. While certainly not at the HP level of a barb it ends up being pretty nice overall at lvl 20.

Well, not really. 380 HP is kind of low for a melee at current levels unless it's a very defensive build. My barbarian has more than that without a GFL item and unraged with no toughness feats, and only a +1 con tome. I'd be willing to bet that your average fighter has more than that as well, but rangers might be close.

And I am not sure how you're getting your AC numbers so I won't comment on them. When you say "possible" is that with average gear or with everything ideal?

Aaxeyu

03-25-2009, 06:22 AM

My biggest problem with rogues is how squishy they are. They can often do their great potential damage, but if they get aggro they fall over so fast it not... well actually yes it is funny. Also, many things glancing blow and catch them whether or not they have aggro.

Talking about mid 50s AC as if it mitigates that is a few mods out of date. Relative to other melee DPS builds they tend to either have much less HP and DR or much less AC and fort/will saves.

Sure, you can min max out the perfect build with all possible ideal gear on the boards and they will look pretty good. You can do the same for any build, though.

Ehum, a well built tempest rogue is far from squishy.
70-80 AC is easy to reach. and 400 hp, along with good saves.

Here is a dex based tempest rogue. Great DPS and really high AC.
http://community.codemasters.com/forum/showthread.php?t=308644

Hadrian

03-25-2009, 07:21 AM

Ehum, a well built tempest rogue is far from squishy.
70-80 AC is easy to reach. and 400 hp, along with good saves.

Here is a dex based tempest rogue. Great DPS and really high AC.
http://community.codemasters.com/forum/showthread.php?t=308644

Wasn't this line of discussion about this person's STR based roge? You've replaced the WF str based rogue which he has been discussing with an extrmely sneak attack focused halfling finesse build. Not really the same discussion. You have to pick a build and stick with it, not move to whatever build is designed to be outstanding at one particular detail being discussed currently.

I assumed my post would be taken in the context of the discussion. I should have qualified that I was talking about the STR-based rogue to avoid the nitpick :)

(I am a fan of finesse builds despite the bad reputation they seem to have.)

Accelerando

03-25-2009, 09:18 AM

Well, not really. 380 HP is kind of low for a melee at current levels unless it's a very defensive build. My barbarian has more than that without a GFL item and unraged with no toughness feats, and only a +1 con tome. I'd be willing to bet that your average fighter has more than that as well, but rangers might be close.

And I am not sure how you're getting your AC numbers so I won't comment on them. When you say "possible" is that with average gear or with everything ideal?

The 380 HP i am talking about is WO GFL or a Shroud HP Item. So... 55 more HP (with a tier II), 435 at 16? Not too shabby for a low HD toon.

As for the AC, most everything needed is average just a really good DT Docent and one or two dual shard khopeshes (depending on the Docent's setup) Although I'm not sure if you consider Chaos Garde difficult to find I haven't been looking in that quest for 2 years, and I still have a few pairs stocked up in the bank.

Other than that the main thing is the +3 tomes, but I have a feeling those will be more readily available next mod.

The_Phenx

03-25-2009, 09:42 AM

I was more alluding to the whole mineral II problem and the next mod. It looks like we are going to see more immunities to acid then before. Trust me if I am wrong I will be moving that insight to my armor and recrafting.

I have been touting the "virtues" of mineral II's since people started freaking out over them 24 larges to build a glorified boss beater. Which half the damage they are immune to...just silly in my opinion.

The best damage Vs non Dr devils/orthons is the 3x pos...

The best damage vs dr ones like Ari and Sulu, is Trasmuting greater evil/lawful outsider bane.

And coming in a VERY close 2nd is Transmuting of Pure Good. And those can be had for a relatively low cost comparitively and only do every so slightly less dps.

__________________

I made a set of 3x positives.. .because for 95% of the game its the best all around weapon, and bypasses almost everythings dr.

The other 4% Elementals, Mephits, Animals etc ... I have a set of 3x earths... since none of those types are immune to acid, and the burst/blast damage is tops there, plus you can earthgrab them adn get AUTO burst/blast damage.

For the other 1% I have specialy stuff... wounding/weakening enfeebling, smiters, vorpals, etc.

___________________

More like 5 AC vs 7 main hand damage. 11 AC vs 11 main hand damage if we are considering boosts (Imp Uncanny Dodge vs Kensai PS)

Shure I could say a top tier geared out str based rouge/monk/ranger with power attack on would be what mid 54AC? rougly...thats only 2 or 3 difference. While its a difference, shrug im not worried about that. Fighters used to have that covered with the dodge enhancements, but they nerf'd us.

As far as kensai...they will only truly shine based on fortification of the mobs, and that remains to be seen. Am I thrilled about the 10% alacrity and +1 crit threat I am going to get?? Hell yes... but the true impact remains to be seen... none of it matters if we just have to run around wounding mobs to death anyway. Maybe ill take imp crit pierce and run around WOP'ing things to death like everyone else.

Accelerando

03-25-2009, 09:57 AM

Shure I could say a top tier geared out str based rouge/monk/ranger with power attack on would be what mid 54AC? rougly...thats only 2 or 3 difference. While its a difference, shrug im not worried about that. Fighters used to have that covered with the dodge enhancements, but they nerf'd us.

Ya I mean we are talking 54AC ++. Self buffs are easy, lvl 10 shield wands and barkskin pots. 59. 4.5 mins per shrine of imp uncanny dodge so while situational puts the rog at a pretty servicable 65.
7-13 AC is not really the 2 or 3 difference you are talking about. (Keep in mind you were mentioning the seal of earth in your calcs and I know fighters can keep up shield clickies, but i see very few doing it just due to the annoyance factor. Even then we are still talking about a range of 5-11AC)

As far as kensai...they will only truly shine based on fortification of the mobs, and that remains to be seen. Am I thrilled about the 10% alacrity and +1 crit threat I am going to get?? Hell yes... but the true impact remains to be seen... none of it matters if we just have to run around wounding mobs to death anyway. Maybe ill take imp crit pierce and run around WOP'ing things to death like everyone else.

I agree. I am a bit worried about how this next mod will be implemented to be honest, but either way it will be a blast seeing what all these theoretical PrE and capstone builds really do when live hits.

Accelerando

03-25-2009, 10:00 AM

Wasn't this line of discussion about this person's STR based roge? You've replaced the WF str based rogue which he has been discussing with an extrmely sneak attack focused halfling finesse build. Not really the same discussion. You have to pick a build and stick with it, not move to whatever build is designed to be outstanding at one particular detail being discussed currently.

I assumed my post would be taken in the context of the discussion. I should have qualified that I was talking about the STR-based rogue to avoid the nitpick :)

(I am a fan of finesse builds despite the bad reputation they seem to have.)

Actually that is a Str based attack rogue, just with high dex as well. :) 28/36

Its a pretty nice build I was working on something similar myself.

The_Phenx

03-25-2009, 10:18 AM

Ya I mean we are talking 54AC ++. Self buffs are easy, lvl 10 shield wands and barkskin pots. 59. 4.5 mins per shrine of imp uncanny dodge so while situational puts the rog at a pretty servicable 65.
7-13 AC is not really the 2 or 3 difference you are talking about. (Keep in mind you were mentioning the seal of earth in your calcs and I know fighters can keep up shield clickies, but i see very few doing it just due to the annoyance factor. Even then we are still talking about a range of 5-11AC)

Right was talking stictly beholder numbers here no buffs. Where its only 2 or 3 pts.

At current Cap.

The highest I have seen out of my fighter twfing is a 58 (if i member right)...with shield 68...

Those numbers could be 4 higher with a different gear setup... see mah point? lol Only talking a difference of 4 ac on the low side and maybe 8 on the high side... but the fighter gets the dr added in. The difference is there just not super dramatic.. its not like a barbarians 19 ac or anything. :D

The highest I have seen with my rouge/monk is 78 ac with showtime going im uncanny dodge and fully raid buffed...and he gets 4 minutes of that, then it drops dramatically very quickly back to similar #rs as my fighter, whos ac is infinately sustainable....

I've said this in other posts... its like comparing a Ferrari to a Lamborghini... they both have their strengths and their weaknesses but when your going over 200mph...its not that big a deal...

This is of course assuming both cars were built right from the factory. :D

Accelerando

03-25-2009, 11:54 AM

I've said this in other posts... its like comparing a Ferrari to a Lamborghini... they both have their strengths and their weaknesses but when your going over 200mph...its not that big a deal...

This is of course assuming both cars were built right from the factory. :D

Ok I can agree to that. :D

Hadrian

03-25-2009, 03:25 PM

Actually that is a Str based attack rogue, just with high dex as well. :) 28/36

Its a pretty nice build I was working on something similar myself.

I don't consider 28 str and 36 dex "str based" :) My finesse ranger only has 2 less str when single madstone raged, which I use on bosses.

In any case, it's not anything like the build you were presenting for discussion. :)

gfunk

03-25-2009, 04:32 PM

One of the big advantages to fighter is still the feats (imo, though people complain about the lousy feats). How about a halfling pure kensai fighter with maxed out healing marks? They would get some extra sneak attack damage, and have decent survivability. By comparison, I don't think you could fit in full healing marks on a pure rogue, and it would probably be tough on a ranger-monk hybrid. Dps would be pretty sweet... I would equip with duel radience for trash.

Halfling Kensai Fighter 20 (when fully leveled/equiped)
main / offhand
5 / 5 .. weapon
8 / 8 .. tharnes
7 / 7 .. inspire courage
1 / 1 .. prayer
5 / 5 .. power attack
2 / 2 .. kensai
2 / 2 .. fighter enh
8 / 8 .. halfling guile
4 / 4 .. weapon spec, greater weapon spec
............ 34 unbuffed str (16bse, 5 lvlup, 3 enh, 6 item, 4 tome)
............. 8 str (power surge)
............. 2 str (rage)
............. 2 str (madstone 1)
............. 2 str (madstone 2)
19 / 9 .. (48 str total)
61 / 51 .. total damage modifier

66.5 / 56.5 .. avg regular damage (GS Khopesh)
229.5 / 199.5 .. avg crit damage (+10 dmg to crits w/ kensai+bloodstone)
46.55 / 39.55 .. weighted reg damage (*14/20)
57.375 / 49.875 .. weighted crit damage (*5/20)
103.925 / 89.425 .. Average unhasted damage per swing

6.65 / 6.65 .. 2d6 holy tier I (7*19/20)
3.325 / 3.325 .. 1d6 acid tier II (3.5*19/20)
2.75 / 2.75 .. 2d10 acid on crit tier II (11*5/20)
0.7 / 0.7 .. 4d6 acid on 20 tier III(14*1/20)
2.375 / 2.375 .. 1d4 slicing duel shard (2.5*19/20)
15.8 15.8 .. total weapon effects
119.725 105.225 .. base + weapon effects

5 / 5 .. # of attacks per round
598.625 / 526.125 .. total avg damage per round
1124.75 .. total main + off hand
1237.225 .. * 1.10 melee alacrity
1608.3925 *1.30 haste boost III (assuming roughly multiplicative stacking)

see this following link for comparson: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=174906 (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=174906)

more (situational/boosted) dps then alot of multiclass builds, and still decent surviveability for a non-evasion build. Plus, you get the advantage of staying pure for mod 14 when we get the next lvl bump and everything goes all to **** again ;)